PAGENO="0001" cso7~1 CARL SANDBURG HOME NATIONAL HISTORIC SITE HEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON INTERIOR AND INSULAR AFFAIRS UNITED STATES SENATE NINETIETH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION ON S. 3050 A BILL TO AUTHORIZE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE CARL SANDBURG HOME NATIONAL HISTORIC SITE IN THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES SEPTEMBER 12, 1968 ~ DOG~ Printed for the use of the ~ I a Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs j~ b/i) 5" Ia U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 20-194 / WASHINGTON 1968 `~, q4~ L~tJ PAGENO="0002" COMMITTEE ON INTERIOR AND INSULAR AFFAIRS HENRY M; JACKSON, Washington, Chairman CLINTON P. ANDEI~SON, New Mexico THOMAS H. KUCHEL, California ALAN BIBLE, Nevada GORDON A~LOTT, Colorado FRANK CHURCH, Idaho LEN B. JORDAN, Idaho ERNEST GRUENING, Alaska PAUL I. FANNIN, Arizona FRANK E. MOSS, Utah CLIFFORD P. HANSEN, Wyoming QUENTIN N. BURDICK, North Dakota MARK 0. HATFIELD, Oregon CARL HAYDEN, Arizona GEORGE McGOVERN, South Dakota GAYLORD NELSON, Wisconsin LEE METCALF, Montana JERRY T. VERELER, Staff Director STEWART FRENCH, Chief Counsel E. LEWIS REID, Minority Counsel (II) PAGENO="0003" CONTENTS Page S.3050 1 Departmental reports: Budget 1 Interior 2 STATEMENTS Black, David S., Under Secretary of the Interior, accompanied by Frank Harrison, Assistant to Director (Legislation), National Park Service; and Fred Lee, National Park Service 6 Ervin, Hon. Sam J., Jr., a U.S. Senator from the State of North Carolina~ 3 Taylor, Hon. Roy A., a U.S. Representative in Congress from the State of North Carolina (III) PAGENO="0004" PAGENO="0005" CARL SANDBURG HOME NATIONAL ifiSTORIC srr~: THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 12, 1968 U.S. SENATE, S Co~ii~n~ ON INTERIOR AND INSULAR ~&rFAIRs, S S S S S S Washington, D.O. Tlie committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m., in room 311O, New .Senate Office Building, Senator Prank E. Moss presiding. Present: Senators Moss, Allott, Fannin, and Hatfield. S Also present: Jerry T. Verkler, staff director; Porter Ward, profes- sional staff member; and E. ,Lewis Reid, minority counsel. Senator Moss. This is the time duly noticed for the consideration of S. 3050, which is a bill to authorize the establishment of the Carl Sandburg Home National Historic Site in the State of North Carolina, and for other purppses. The text of the bill and the executive reports will. be inserted at this point in the record. S (The data referred to follow:) S * [S. 3050, 90th Cong,, second sass.] A EILL To authorize the establishment of the Carl Sandburg Home National Historic; Site in the StaW of North Carolina, and for other purposes Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in congress assembled, That the Secretary of the Interior is authorized to acquire, by donation or purchase with donated or appropriated funds, all or any part of the property and improvements thereon at Flat Rock, North Carolina, where Carl Sandburg lived and worked during the last twenty years of his life, comprising approximately two hundred and sixty-eight acres, together with such adjacent or related property as the Secretary may deem necessary for establish- ment of the Carl Sandburg Home National Historic Site. SEC. 2. The national historic site established pursuant tq tlAis Act shall be administered by the Secretary of the Tuterior in accordance with the provisions of the Act of August 25, 1916 (39 Stat. 535), as amended and supplemented (16 U.S.C. 1 et seq.), and the Act of August 21, 1935 (49 Stat. 666; 16 U.S.C. 461-467). SEC. 3. There are authorized to be appropriated such sums as may be necessary to carry out the provisions of this Act. S EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT, S BUREAU or uiin BUDGET, Washington, D.C., July 5, 1968. Hon. HENRY M. JACnSON, S S Chairman, Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs, U.S. Senate, Washington, D.C. DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: Your letter of March 11, 1968, requested a report from the Bureau of the Budget on 5. 3050, a bill to authorize the establishment of the Carl Sandburg Home National Historic Site in the State of North Carolina, and for other purposes. On the basis of the report the Department of the Interior is submitting to your Committee on this bill, the Bureau of the Budget would have no objection to the establishment of the Carl Sandburg Home National Historic Site. Sincerely yours, WILFRED H. ROMMEL, S * Assistant Director for Legislative Reference. (1) PAGENO="0006" 2 U~s. DEPARTM~INT OF THE INTERIOR, OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY, Washington, D.C., July 2, 1968. lion. HENRY M. JACIC8ON, Chairman, Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs, U.S. Senate, Washington, D.C~ DEAR MR. CIIAIRMAN: This responds to your request for a report from this Department on S. 3050, a bill to authorize the establishment of the Carl Sandburg Home National Historic Site in the State of North Carolina, and for other purposes. We recommend that the bill be enacted, with the minor perfecting amendment indicated below. The bill authorizes the Secretary of the Interior to acquire, by donation or purchase with donated or appropriated funds all or any part of the property at Flat Rock, North Carolina, where Carl Sandburg lived and worked during the last 20 years of his life, together with such adjacent or related property as the Secretary may deem necessary for establishment of the Carl Sandburg Home National Historic Site. The national historic site would be administered by the Secretary in accordance with the Act of August 25, 1916 (39 Stat. 535), as amended and supplemented (16 U.S.C. 1 et seq.), and the Act of August 21, 1935 (49 Stat. 666; 16 U.S.C. 461-467). The 241-acre Sandburg farm, "Connemara," where Carl Sandburg lived ap- proximately the last 20 years of his life, and where he died at the age of 89, on July 22, 1967, would be acquired and developed as a national historic site under 5 3050 A statement setting forth the historical and cultural significance of the curl Sandburg farm is enclosed. The proposed national historic site will also include the 6-acre site of the Flat Rock Playhouse, which is run by the Vagabond School of Drama, Inc., a non- profit theatrical organization. The Flat Rock Playhouse has been recognized by the North Carolina General Assembly as the State Theater of North Carolina. See Joint Resolution No. 59, Session Laws of North Carolina, 1961. We do not expect to acquire this site. We anticipate entering into a cooperative agreement with the theatrical organization in order to utilize its facilities and talent in the interpretation of the Carl Sandburg property. We believe that about 32 acres of land adjacent to "Connemara" should be acquired to develop access roads, overlooks, and visitor service facilities in order to provide for visitor needs without encroaching upon the simple pastoral atmos- phere of the farm. About 108,000 visitors are expected in the first year after establishment of the national historic site. Land acquisition costs for the proposed national historic site are estimated to be $415,000. Development costs for the national historic site are expected to be about $1,020,000, all of which are programmed over the first 5 years after its establishment. Annual operating and maintenance costs are expected to be about $120,000 after the fifth year. A staff of 10 permanent and 4.5 man-years of seasonal employees is planned. The Advisory Board on National Parks, Historic Sites, Buildings, and Monu- ments met on April 16-18, 1968, and heartily approved the Carl Sandburg farm as a national historic site. Carl Sandburg lived from 1912 to 1945 in Chicago, and he had other "homes" as well. The chief reason that the Sandburgs moved to North Carolina was the opportunity to engage in farming activity. We believe, therefore, that "Carl Sandburg Farm National Historic Site" would more appropriately emphasize the nature of this site, which we propose to maintain as a working farm. We recommend, therefore, that in the title of the bill and on page 2, line 1, the word "Home" be changed to "Farm". The Bureau of the Budget has advised that there is no objection to the pres- entation of this report from the standpoint of the Administration's program. Sincerely yours, STEWART L. UDALL, Secretary of the Interior, Enclosure. CARL SANDBURG FARM, NORTII CAROLINA Carl Sandburg was born January 6, 1878, in Galesburg, Illinois, a town of 15,000 residents. He died on July 22, 1967, at "Connemara," his western North Carolina farm and homB since 1945. His death at 89 closed a literary career of more than half a century and removed from the American scene one who sought to capture in his own life and works PAGENO="0007" 3 America's epic traditions. It has been said that Sandburg was a figure as prairie~ haunted, and as rough~hewn as the Lincoln he had memorialized. Winner of two Pulitzer Prizes, Carl Sandburg ranged widely as a writer. His finest poems cele~. brated the lusty industrial growth of the Nation. The second part of his Lincoln biography, Abraham Lincoln: The War Years, won the Pulitzer Prize for history in 1940; his Complete Poems won the Pulitzer Prize for poetry in 1951. Other works were-Chicago Poems (1916), Cornhuskers (1918), Smoke and Steel (1920), Slabs of the Sunburnt West (1922), Rootabaga Stories (1922), Abraham Lincoln: The Prairie Years (1926), The American Songbag (1927), The People, Yes (1927), Remembrance Rock (1948), Always the Young Strangers (1953), and Honey and Salt (1963). Carl Sandburg's roots were in the Midwest, but he spent his last 22 years in North Carolina where he wrote Always the Young Strangers, an account of his first 21 years, and considered by some as the greatest autobiography ever written by an American. With its vast collections of books, papers, correspondence, and its vivid association with Sandburg, the farm is a fitting memorial to the poet. When Carl and Paula Sandburg looked for a new home in the early 1940's, they were seeking a milder climate and a more spacious residence. In 1963 Mrs. Sandburg visited western North Carolina and looked at several places, one of which was "Connemara," a 241-acre farm at Flat Rock, 20 miles south of Ashe- ville. The Sandburgs acquired the farm and moved in after World War II in 1945. At "Connemara," Sandburg continued his writing, turning out more poems, a novel, his autobiography, collections and condensations of his own works, and introductions and prefaces to books by others. He worked mostly at night, at his typewriter in the top-floor study. Farm chores called the rest of the family out at daw~i, but Sandburg stayed in bed until midmorning and took his breakfast from a tray. He did not usually come downstairs until the noon meal. During the after- noon, he usually chatted with friends, tended to his correspondence, or walked about on the farm. Dinner was a relaxed, leisurely affair. The Sandburgs lived simply at "Connernara." While Carl Sandburg moved easily among the great and famous, he never affected sophistication; nor was his house pretentious. The windows were uncurtained and the furniture was func- tional. The vast floor-to-ceiling bookcases, collections of magazines and clippings, boxes of letters, and other personal items and furniture will remain with the home and will become part of the interpretive program for the national historic site. "Connemara" has from the 1830's been managed as a farm estate. The house was built about 1838 as a summer residence by Christopher G. Memminger of Charleston, Secretary of the Treasury of the Confederacy. The white colonial- style house, with its hewn timbers and floor-to-ceiling bookshelves in every room is surrounded by forests of white pine, oak, tulip tree, and maple. Thickets of rhododendron and flame azalea dot the landscape. Two ponds have been created on the grounds. The interpretive theme for the national historic site will seek to preserve and carry forward the pastoral character of the farm, with which Carl Sandburg was so completely identified. As he stated at the age of 70: "Why don't I live in Chicago? That's simple . . . I am a country boy. When I wake up in the morning, I've got to be able to see either the prairie or the mountains . . . When I am in the city, I feel like a visitor . . . I am not certain of myself . . . I can't think." Self-guiding simple trails around the grounds and audio exhibits will be main- tained to tell the visitor about Carl Sandburg. Senator Moss. Our first witness will be the Honorable Sam J. Ervin, senior Senator from the State of North Carolina. I am happy to recognize you, Senator. Senator ERVIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator Moss. You may proceed. STATEMENT OP HON. SAM L ERVIN, JR., A U.S. SENATOR PROM THE STATE OP NORTH CAROLiNA Senator ERVIN. Mr. Chairman, I am indeed happy to give testimony to S. 3050, a bill to authorize the establishment of the Carl Sandburg Home National Historic Site in my home State of North Carolina. PAGENO="0008" 4 `J~'his bill would authorize th~ Department 61 theTh~xior to a~qiuire the Carl Sandburg home and farm in Flat ~Rock, N,C.2 aud to. ad~ minister it as a national historic site I strongly u~rge the Senate Interior Committee to act favorably on this measure Carl Sandburg devoted his long and productive life to creating and reciting the epic that ~S: America. He died at the age of. 89; a man who would be ~acourately described as "more than the voice of A~nerh~a, more than the poet of its strength' `and genius. He was America." President Johnson so described him, and the tribute was heard a thousand times across the land, in different words but always with a like fervor. ForCari Sandburg preserved' for posterity the spirit of America, his poems and biographies will always convey to future generations the traditions that made this Nation great * The `preservation of the home in which `he lived for the last two decades of his life is the' smallest token of `esteem that we owe this monumental benefactor to the greatness of America Mrs. Sandburg has graciously offered to permit the U~S. Govern- ment to purchase Connemara at a price far 1o~er~ than land values would dictate, and she `will, donate the furniture and memorabilia in the house so that it way be preserved"substantially as it' was' during her husband's life. ` *``, ` S. 3050 is a cowpanion bill to 1LR~. 13099, which was introduced in the House on September 25, 1967, by my North Carolina `colleague, Congressman `Roy A. Taylor. ` The House Interior Committee has already, conducted hearings on the House bifi, and the measure was favorably reported on July~ 10, 1968 (H. Rept. 1676). ` The House Interior Committee, `in its report on' H.R. 13099, recom- mended minor changes in the introduced bill in order to satisfy the current, need for national economy. I recommend that this corn-. mittee report the bill incorporating the House committee amendment to reduce the acreage to be obtained' to 242 rather `than 268, thereby lowering the acquisition costs very substantially. The Department of the Interior has recommended the passage of this measure. I' join with Secretary Udall and with the House Inte- rior and Insular Affairs Committee in urging the passage of this bill during this Congress. By acquiring Connemara and accepting Mrs. Sandburg's gracious gift of the furniture and personal mementos in the house, we can pass on to the future the historic setting of Carl Sandburg's last years. I would like to add `to this statement that in my view it is highly important that this action be taken as soon as possible simply because of the fact that Mrs. Sandburg, who is a most gracious lady, is ad- vanced in' years. She is willing to make the gifts of these personal belongings, which would be of incalculable value, and if something should happen to her there might be great difficulty in obtaining anywhere near as favorable terms. * Congressxii.an Taylor~asked me to insert.in the record .a statement made by him which sets out the fact that the total outlay of money necessary at the present time for the acquisition of the property, would be $225,000 Senator Moss $225,000? PAGENO="0009" 5 a and perhap~ recoup money for the - vernment to take care of the original cost. This place is situated in a very beautiful area of North Carolina, about 16 miles from the Blue Ridge Parkway, which is traveled by millions of people annually. There is no doubt that it will be, in all probability, ultimately a revenue-producing measure. I would like to say that my colleague, Senator Jordan, who is necessarily absent, concurs in the statement which I make to the committee and in the statement made by Congressman Taylor, which I ask to have included in the record. Senator Moss. Thank you, Senator. (The statement referred to follows:) STATEMENT OF HON. Ro~ A. TAYLOR, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA Mr. Chairman, this bill would acquire the 241-acre home place of the late Carl Sandburg at Flat Rock, North Carolina, and about six additional acres needed for development, and establish it as a national historic site. Here, in 1945, Carl Sandburg brought his family to begin the last chapter in his rich and valuable career. He lived here until his death on July 22, 1967, which is longer than he lived at any other place. The Department of Interior originally recommended acquiring 35 additional acres adjoining the Sandburg property for a visitors center and a parking lot, at a total cost of $415,000. Members of the House Subcommittee on National Parks and Recreation questioned the advisa- bility of this additional acquisition, since the property was very expensive, and requested that a new look be taken at the proposition to see if it would not be possible to locate these improvements on the Sandburg property itself. After additional field studies, the Interior Department presented an alternate plan which would include only the Sandburg property and six additional acres, reducing the acquisition cost by $190,000, to a new total of $225,000. The Department has taken options on all needed property. Mrs. Taylor and I visited the Sandburg home place last fall and enjoyed talking with the vivacious Mrs. Sandburg. The home and beautiful surroundings can be taken just as the great poet left them, with his furnishings, books, and mementos which reflect his life and personality. I have never seen a home which reflects the personality of a great man so thoroughly as does the Sandburg home, unless it was Sagamore Hill, home of President Theodore Roosevelt, on Long Island. Modest admission fees could be charged under the Land and Water Conserva- tion Fund Act, and receipts in all probability would pay the cost of maintenance and operation, and, over a period of years, reimburse the Government for the acquisition and development costs. This home is located only 15 miles from the Blue Ridge Parkway, traveled by millions of visitors from all over America. Mrs. Sandburg is anxious to have this bill passed and to have the property preserved as a historic site, and she has volunteered to donate most of her hus- band's personal and literary effects to the Nation. On February 11, 1959, Carl Sandburg stood before a joint session of Congress and delivered an address to commemorate the 150th anniversary of the birth of President Lincoln. Carl Sandburg belongs to all the people of America. Senator Moss. I notice this is described cs a farm. Is there any possibility that some farming might be carried on, on the land, even after it has been set aside as a memorial? Senator ERvIN. That is possible, but it is really not great farming country, because it is in a very rugged area. 20-194--68-2 PAGENO="0010" 6 Senator Moss. In a mountainous area of North Carolina; is that correct? Senator ERVIN. That is right. In other words, Carl Sandburg was a man who loved elbowroom; so he had quite a large body of land there. Senator Moss. I see. Senator ERVIN. I sincerely hope that the committee will take favorable action on this bill at the earliest possible moment. Senator Moss. We appreciate that. The Senator from Oregon, do you have any questions of the Senator? Senator HATFEELD. No. Senator Moss. Thank you very much, Senator Ervin. We were glad to have you, and glad to excuse you at this point. Senator ERvIN. Thank you. Senator Moss. Thank you. We will now hear from David S. Black, the Under Secretary of the Interior, to testify on 5. 3050. STATEMENT OP DAVID S. BLACK, UNDER SECRETARY OP TEE IN~ TERIOR; ACCOMPANIED BY PRANK HARRISON, ASSISTANT TO DIRECTOR (LEGISLATION), NATIONAL PARK SERVICE; AND FRED LEE, NATIONAL PARK SERVICE Mr. BLACK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to have Mr. Frank Harrison, Assistant to the Director, accompany me. Senator Moss. We are always glad to have Mr. Harrison here. Mr. BLA CK. I would also like to express, on behalf of Secretary Udall, his profound regrets that he could not be present to testify personally for this bill. This is a piece of legislation that is very close to his heart. He was a close friend and acquaintance of Carl Sandburg for a number of years, and is personally very familiar with this property. I regret to say I am not. I have not visited it, but we have people in the hearing room from the Department who I am sure will be able to respond to any detailed questions. I am pleased to support this legislation, Mr. Chairman, which would authorize the establishment of the Carl Sandburg home as a national historic site. It is located at Flat Rock, in the mountains of western North Carolina, and was, for the last 22 years of his life, the beloved "home place" of one of this country's best-known writers, Carl Sandburg. The poet-writer-philosopher-farmer, Carl Sandburg, needs no in- troduction; he was as uniquely American as was Abraham Lincoln or Will Rogers or Walt Whitman. He was a biographer of the American scene whose roots never left the soil. Though known best as a man of the Midwest, Sandburg and his wife began the search in the early 1940's for a farm home in the Appalachians. Circumstances led them to a 241-acre farm 20 miles from Asheville, N.C., where they settled and where he continued to write. "Connemara," his home, offered the opportunity for reflection and for walking, with the Blue Ridge clearly visible from his hilltops. It is said that the land, the buildings and furnishings of "Conne- mara," embody the memory of Carl Sandburg more vividly than any other place with which he was associated. PAGENO="0011" 7 Mr. Chairman, we recommend the enactment of legislation which would authorize the preservation of the Sandburg home as a living farm best reflecting the life and the times of Carl Sandburg. The legislation you are considering today would authorize acquisition of the Sandburg farm, together with adjacent or related properties required for the administration of the site. At this point, Mr. Chairman, you will note that an inked change has been made in the text of my state- ment. This was done in error. It should not have been made. The area that is embodied in the bill is, in fact, 268 acres, not 247; but I ~ will discuss in just a moment the smaller figure. The report of the Department, dated July 2, 1968, proposed that in addition to the 241-acre farm, the historic site should also include approximately 38 acres of adjacent land, six acres of which lie south of the farm, and 32 acres of which are i'~orth of the farm, and include within the authorization, the 6-acre Flat Rock Playhouse property. The acreage other than the playhouse property was proposed for acquisition so that access roads, parking areas, and service facilities could be provided in a location which would not encroach upon the farm, A sensitive treatment of the Sandburg story calls for careful preservation of the pastoral atmosphere. The Department's report to your committee did not, however, reflect a restudy of the inclusion of the 32 acres, including the play- house property, north of the farm, made by the National Park Service at the request of the House Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs. The restudy was particularly directed to the feasibility of relocating some of the proposed developments to the principal property, thus eliminating 32 acres from the proposal. The restudy indicated that this could be accomplished without any adverse effects. The House committee was notified of this by letter dated July 2, 1968. We will submit a copy of that'ietter for the record. (The letter referred to follows:) JULY 2, 1968. Hon. WAYNE N. ASPINALL, Chairman, Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs, House of Representatives, Washington, D.C. DEAR Mn. CHAIRMAN: Following the June 18, 1968, hearings on HR. 13099 by the Interior and Insular Affairs Committee, and in response to a request from the Committee which arose during those hearings, National Park Service resources planning team returned to the Carl Sandburg farm in North Carolina to conduct additional field studies. This was done to determine whether the visitor contact and orientation facilities, which had been proposed for develop- ment of a detached 32-acre parcel of private land, might be located within the Sandburg property. A careful analysis, including landscape considerations, study of the relation- ship of one portion of the farm to another, and attention to the site character- istics of the land and to the space requirements of the proposed visitor facilities, has disclosed that these facilities can be installed within the northern portion of the Sandburg property. Were this alternative approved, the land acquisition costs would be reduced by $190,000 from the original estimate of $415,000, thus leaving a total of $225,000. Development costs would be decreased by $67,000, from $1,019,200 to $952,200. Annual operating and maintenance costs would remain the same. We are hopeful that this report will furnish the information which will be required in further consideration of this proposal. Sincerely yours, GEoRGE B. HARTZOG, Jr., Director. PAGENO="0012" 8 Mr. BLACK. So H.R. 13099 was reported out by the committee and does not include within the site the 32 acres north of the farm. Under S. 3050 we estimate that land acquisition costs would amount to $415,000, with development costs of $1,020,000. Under the alter- native plan as reported by the House committee, we estimate acqui- sitiori costs would be $225,000 and development costs would total $952,200. Mr. Chairman, though we believe the proposal supported in the Department's report to your committee is an excellent one, in view of the previously mentioned restudy made by the National Park Service, the Department can state its favorable consideration of the plan as reported by the House committee, should you determine to consider that alternative. Under either plan, annual operating and maintenance costs are estimated to be $120,000 following the fifth year. We would expect some 108,000 visitors to the historic site within the first year following its establishment. There has been a most favorable reaction to the proposal from the Advisory Board on National Parks, Historic Sites, Buildings and Monuments, Following its 58th meeting this past April, the Board advised that "the preservation and interpretation of the Sandburg farm and literary works, and the continued management of the site which he loved as a living farm, will lend great insight to future genera- tions, through this one man's example, into the whole chapter of American history experienced by his generation. The Board, therefore, heartily endorses the proposal to establish a Carl Sandburg Farm National Historic Site as a unit of the national park system." I might add that Mrs. Sandburg has agreed to donate virtually the entire collection of personal effects and memorabilia with which the House is presently furnished. So it affords us an excellent opportunity to get this property now as it was during Carl Sandburg's lifetime rather than waiting a period of years and trying to reconstruct arti- ficially a very famous and precious site for historians and lovers of Carl Sandburg for years to come. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We will be happy to answer any ques- tions that the committee may have. Senator MOss. Thank you, Mr. Black. As I understand it, the Department originally recommended a larger acreage but now agrees that it could be reduced as the Rouse report reduces it and still be adequate for preserving the farm and exhibiting it as the home of Carl Sandburg? Mr. BLAcK. That is correct, Mr. Chairman. We had felt that to minimize the extent of development on the property itself would better preserve the atmosphere that we are seeking, The field restudy of the site has demonstrated that this can be substantially accomplished on the smaller acreage without seriously adversely affecting the value of the site. Senator Moss. Is the essential change for the purpose of parking vehicles and to provide a waiting place on the farm rather than across PAGENO="0013" 9 the road to the nOrth where you ~vere going to put the parking erea in the first plan? Mr BLACK That is essentially it From the standpoint of buildings constructed, the answer to your question is in the affirmative. Senator Moss. I see. And that~ of course, reduces the estimated acquisition cost by nearly $200,000? Mr. BLACK. Yes, sir. Senator Moss. It also reduces the development costs by something less than $100,000? Now, would it bO the plan of the Department in its operation to charge an admission fee for viewing the premises here? Mr. BLACK. I don't know that this has been determined yet, with respect to this particular site. But we have, I am told by Mr. Harrison, a general policy, particularly with respect to historic sites, to charge a nominal admission fee; so I suspect that in this case that polic~r would be followed. Senator Moss. If that is done, then it would be expected that there would be some income against this amount of maintenance that you estimate at $120,000? Mr. BLACK. It would assist in recovering those maintenance costs. Senator. Moss. Since you don't know exactly what the fee would be, you don't have any estimate of'what your income might be? Mr. BLACK. We don't have any estimate, since we haven't estab- lished any fee as yet. Senator Moss. This is a very beautiful volume here of photographs that you have supplied the committee, and it certainly indicates this is a lo4vely area and most appealing in that sense as well as its historic significance. The Senator from Oregon, do you have any questions? Senator HATFIELD. Yes, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Black, I am an enthusiast of Mr. Sandburg's writings and I am very much in sympathy and enthusiastic about your proposal. I would like to get a little better understanding of what area you have now removed from your original proposal. I am looking at this publi- cation and there is a map in the back part of it and I am not quite sure- Mr. BLACK. We have a large map that would show that. Mr. LEE. I am Fred Lee, National Park Service. You will note on this map, the general area for the facilities and park would be in the central north pasture.. Mr. BLACK. This is as the plan presently exists. We have a map which shows the property which was removed. Senator Moss. I think we can tell from the map. Senator HATFIELD; Is this land on the north side the part that was removed, Mr. Black? Mr. BLACK. Yes, it i~ the quarry area, designated asNo. 1 in the publication. PAGENO="0014" 10 Senator HATFIELD. You have now in your revised proposal, as I understand, removed that from the plan? Mr. BLACK. We have indicated that we can accommodate the pur- poses of this site without that. The Senate bill actually does include that property. Senator HATFIELD. Yes, that is what I know. Well, putting it very~directly to you, is it your feeling that maybe a fight should be made on the Senate side to include that? Mr. BLACK. No, sir. I believe that our park planners, the Park Service, are satisfied that the substance and value of this property can be maintained with~. out that property. Senator HATFIELD. I see. The second question I have is related to the statement in Mr. tTdall's letter which you read to us, page 2 of that letter, where he ref ets to the amount that it is expected to take to develop this area as $1,020,000, which I think would be a bit less now with your reduced plan. What is included now in terms of that amount? I read your brochure, and it does not appear that you are going to be developing any major building; or, at the most, it will be rest stations, pasture, wooded trails that will be included in that amount? Mr. BLACK. The development costs under the revised plan, elim- mating this property, would, of course, be reduced to $950,200. I have a schedule of the development of this property which we can insert in the record or I can try to recite it to you now. Senator HATFIELD. I think, Mr. Chairman, you touched on that just a moment ago. When we act upon the bill and our chairman is presenting a bill, there will be those who would want to see a break- down of the various items included in that figure. Mr. BLACK. Essentially, it is $290,000 for roads and trails, $661,700 for buildings and utilities. That, plus- Senator HATFIELD. $600,000 for buildings? Mr. BLACK. $661,700 spread over a 5-year period. Senator HATFIELD. My point is, What are the buildings? I don't see a list here of what kind of buildings are going to be built, other than rest stops and a tour station, or a guide station. Mr. BLACK. I understand that the lion's share of this figure will be required to rehabilitate and strengthen the main buildings so that they can accommodate a large number of tourists and sightseers. It is in need of some reworking, and this is where a good piece of this money will go. It is going to have to accommodate thousands of people, and will take quite a beating, I imagine, over the years. Senator HATFIELD. I would suggest, Mr. Chairman- M~r. BLACK. The building is about 100 years old now. Senator Moss, Yes, I would ask that you supply a breakdown of the expenditures and what you estimate they will be. Mr. BLACK. Yes, sir; we will be happy to do that. (The data referred to follow:) PAGENO="0015" 11 DEVELOPMENT SCHEDULE 1st year 2d year 3d year 4th year 5th year Future Total years Roads and trails: Pasture area $40, 500 $64, 900 $105, 400 Quarry road,pond area 13,500 6,700 $12,200 32,400 Sandburg residence area 13,500 - 13,500 Farm area $13, 500 20, 300 $33, 800 67,600 Trailandmountainarea 6,700 27,100 18,90018,900 71,600 Subtotal, roads and trails 74,200 98,700 32,400 51,400 33,800 - 290,500 Buildings, utilities, etc.: Pasture area 138, 100 14,000 152, 100 Quarry road, pond area 2,700 2,700 Sandburg residence area 98,600 109,300 82, 000 26,700 316,600 Farm area 69,300 41,300 26,700 28,300 165,600 Trail and mountain area 18,000 6,700 24,700 Subtotal, buildings and utilities -- 98,600 178,600 261,400 85,400 37,700 661,700 Grand total 172,800 277,300 293, 800 136,800 71, 500 952, 200 DETAILED BREAKDOWN SUMMARY Roads and Buildings and trails utilities Pasture area Quarry road-pond area Sandburg residence area Farm area Trail and mountain area Total Grand total $105,400 32,400 13,500 67,600 71,600 $152,100 2,700 316,600 165,600 24,700 290, 500 661,700 952,200 DETAILED BREAKDOWN Roads and Bu Trails ildings and Utilities PASTURE AREA Walks, entrance roads, parking area (100 cars), parking area lighting, grounds devel- opment $105, 400 Buildings: Contact facility (400 sq. ft.), contact and information (500 sq. ft.), sales (100 sq. ft.), office and storage (300 sq. ft.), mechanical and janitorial (200 sq. ft.) 80,000 Semienclosed, interp. and loading area (800 sq. ft.) 26, 700 Furnishings 3,300 Exhibits - 10,600 Total, buildings .~. 120,600 itJtilities: Sewage system: Septic tank (10,000 gals.), leaching field (5,000 sq. ft.), main (240 line ft.), miscellaneous 16, 000 Electrical: U/G service (300 line ft. 3,200 Water: Main (1,200 line ft.), building service (400 line ft.), hydrants (4) - 12,300 Total, utilities 31,500 Total, roads and trails, pasture area 105, 400 Total, buildings and utilities, pasture are 152, 100 QUARRY ROAD-POND AREA Resurface entrance drive, trails (3.~ mile), picnic facilities, grounds development (mis- cellaneous) 32,400 Buildings: Interpretive kiosk 2,700 Total, roads and trails, quarry road-pond area 32, 400 Total, buildings and utilities, quarry road-pond area 2, 700 PAGENO="0016" 12 DETAILED BREM(DOWN-Coi~tfiiued 22,600 30,700 5,300 Roads and Trails Buildings and Utilities 13,500 SANDBURG RESIDENCE AREA * Sig~ns ~nd markers, grounds improvements Buildings: Renovate Sandburg residence: Rehabilitate roof and exterior walls, rehabilitate interior structure, convert spaces 6, 7, 8,9, 10 to apartment, convert space 1~ tO office, convert space 13 to browsing area, rehabilitate mechanical systems 80, 000 Exhibits and protective devices 65, 000 Convert existing garage to infortnatibn center: Rehabilitate roof and exterior walls, restrooms, rehabilitate interior space, mechanical improvemente 40, 000 Furnishings, interpretive devices 13, 200 Renovate "Swedish House": Stabilize structure, rebuild chimney, rehabilitate mechanical systems 26, 000 Interpretive devices 3,200 Renovate tenant house (seasbnal quarters): Structure stabilization, finish interiors, rehabilitate mechanical systems 17, 200 Miscellaneous buildings: Rehabilitate pumphouse No. 1, rehabilitate woodshed, rehabilitate "Cheese House," rehabilitate "Wash House"_ 13, 400 Total, buildings 258,000 Utilities: Sewage: Collection lines (house, information), manholes, treatment, disposal Water: Main from city water, branch lines, fire hydrants (6), rehabilitate existing lines Electrical: Secondary underground lines Total, utilities Total, roads and trails, Sandburg residence area 13, 500 Total, buildings and utilities, Sandburg residence area 316,600 FARM AREA Rehabilitate secondary entrance and farm area roads, grounds development, interpretive facilities 67, 600 Buildings: Renovate caretaker's house: Structural stabIlization, exterior finishes, refinish interior, rehabilitate me- chanical systems 30, 600 Reconstruct ice storage house 7, 000 Rehabilitate milkhouse (operating condition): Paint and miscellaneous repairs, milking equipment, cooler storage and washup equipment 8, 000 Structural and mechanical repairs, miscellaneous outbuildings: Pumphouse No. 2, greenhouse, bunk hourse, equipment garage, stock barn, 340 sq. ft., horse barn, stock barn, 3,100 sq. ft., silo, feed room, hay and equip- ment storage 26,700 Maintenance facility: Shop, 400 sq. ft., mini bus garage, 300 sq. ft., vehicle storage, 400 sq. ft., office space, 200 sq. ft., restrooms, 100 sq. ft., Storage, 200 sq. ft 53,300 Total 125,600 Utilities: Sewage: Collection line (caretaker's house), maintenance facility sewage system 18, 000 Water: Branch lines, rehabilitate existing lines, rehabilitate existing system 8, 700 Electrical: Secondary underground lines 13, 300 Total, utilities Total, roads and trails farm area 67, 600 Total, buildings and ul~ilities, farm area 165, 000 TRAIL AND MOUNTAIN AREA Walking trails, 2j/~ miles, signs and markers, grounds improvement, fencing (property and livestock), 16,000 lin. ft 71, 600 Buildings: Interpretive kiosks, 3, overlook (Big Glassy), 250 sq. ft., interpretive devices 24, 700 Utilities ~ 58,600 40, 000 Total, roads and trails, trail and mountain area 71, 600 Total, buildings and utilities, trail and mountain area ~- 24,700 PAGENO="0017" 13 Senator HATFIELD. One final question: Are there plans to give some special focus to Lincoln on this site of the Carl Sandburg shrine? Mr. BLACK. Well,, the Flat Rock Playhouse Players, with whom we hope to work closely, I believe, will have an opportunity to emphasize this aspect of the Sandburg life and times. Whether there will be any special shrine or other reference to that aspect of his work on the property, I don't believe our plans indicate. Senator HATFIELD. Have you thought about an educational or some other kind of living activity related to either Sandbw~g or both Sandburg and Lincoln? Mr. BLACK. Well, it is my understanding that in the discussions we have had with the Flat Rock Playhouse Players-that organization which is located on the property right north of the Sandburg prop- erty-we expressed hope to utilize them perhaps in assisting in tours, and have some actual activity that does revolve around Sandburg's life and times, rather than just having a static piece of property that people would come and look at. Senator HATFIELD. Mr. Chairman, I couldn't agree with Mr. Black more, especially on his last comment. I think there is a tendency to just create buildings or shrines for people to look at and then to leave. I am sure what has been the experience of most people on their first European trip is that after a while even the people all begin to look alike. I would like to see things done as you did in the case of the Ford Theater: to make a living, active kind of monument and tribute to the person we are remembering. Tn the case of Sandburg, who was a great literary man, for which he was known all over the world, it seems to me perhaps a research or fellowship, or some kind of library in con- junction with the home, or drama-I don't know, but it seems to me that rather than just re-creating the house as a house, which very frankly, architecturally speaking, isn't very unique, we should do more. We should make something very active out of all these shrines or as many as we can. Mr. BLACK. I certainly am glad to hear you say this, Senator. I know this is Secretary TJdall's wish, particularly with this property. It is our objective to make this a really dynamic site, rather than some- thing, as I say, static and dead. Senator HATFIELD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator Moss. Thank you. Just one final question: In referring to the map on the back of this brochure with a picture of Carl Sandburg on the front, it would appear that the property proposed is entirely in the Sandburg farm now, with the exception of a small triangular piece on the southwest part. Can you tell me about that little triangular piece? Mr. BLACK. That little piece outside the dotted lines is a mountain- top which was one of Carl Sandburg's favorite places for reflection. We felt that it was appropriate to put that within the boundaries of the historic site. We have an option on that property. Senator Moss. You do have an option on it? And this is high ground, where you could build an overlook or rest place? PAGENO="0018" 14 Mr. BLACK. It is conceivable. Senator Moss. All right. Do you have anything you would care to add, Mr. Harrison? Mr. HARRISON. No, Mr. Chairman. Senator Moss. Thank you very much. We appreciate having your testimony on this. I have no other witnesses listed for S. 3050. Is there anyone who had expected to testify who hasn't had an opportunity? If not, we will close the hearing on S. 3050. (Whereupon at 12 noon, the hearing was adjourned.) 0 PAGENO="0019" PAGENO="0020"