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ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY AMENDMENTS
OF 1969
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
AD HOC HEARING TASK FORCE ON POVERTY
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
NINETY-FIRST CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
ON
H.R. 513
A BILL TO PROVIDE FOR THE CONTINUATION OF PROGRAMS
AUTHORIZED UNDER THE ECONOMIC OPPORTUNJTY ACT
OF 1964, TO PROVIDE FOR ADEQUATE LEADTIME, AND FOR
PLANNING AND EVALUATION, IN SUCH PROGRAMS, AND FOR
OTHER PURPOSES
PART 3
HEARINGS HELD IN WASHINGTON, D.C.,
APRIL 30; MAY 1, 2, 5, 6, AND 7, 1969
Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and Labor
CARL D. PERKINS, Chairman
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
27-7M WASHINGTON 1969
1/ //(
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COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR
CARL D. PERKINS, Kentucky, Chairman
EDITH GREEN, Oregon
FRANK THOMPSON, Jn., New Jersey
JOHN H. DENT, Pennsylvania
ROMAN C. PUCINSKI, Illinois
DOMINICK V. DANIELS, New Jersey
JOHN BRADEMAS, Indiana
JAMES G. O'HARA, Michigan
HUGH L. CAREY, New York
AUGUSTUS F. HAWKINS, California
WILLIAM D. FORD, Michigan
WILLIAM D. HATHAWAY, Maine
PATSY T. MINK, Hawaii
JAMES H. SCHEUER, New York
LLOYD MEEDS, Washington
PHILLIP BURTON, California
JOSEPH M. GAYDOS, Pennsylvania
LOUIS STOKES, Ohio
WILLIAM (BILL) CLAY, Missouri
ADAM C. POWELL, New York
WILLIAM H. AYRES, Ohio
ALBERT H. QUIE, Minnesota
JOHN M. ASHBROOK, Ohio
ALPHONZO BELL, California
OGDEN R. REID, New York
JOHN N. ERLENBORN, Illinois
WILLIAM J. SCHERLE, Iowa
JOHN R. DELLENBACK, Oregon
MARVIN L. ESCH, Michigan
EDWIN D. ESHLEMAN, Pennsylvania
WILLIAM A. STEIGER, Wisconsin
JAMES M. COLLINS, Texas
EARL F. LANDGREBE, Indiana
ORVAL HANSEN, Idaho
EARL B. RUTH, North Carolina
Ai Hoc HEARING TASK FORCE ON POVERTY
CARL D. PERKINS, Kentucky, Chairman
WILLIAM H. AYRES, Ohio
ALBERT H. QUIE, Minnesota
JOHN M. ASHBROOK, Ohio
OGDEN R. REID, New York
JOHN N. ERLENBORN, Illinois
WILLIAM I. SCHERLE, Iowa
(MR. ESCH AND MR. STEIGER
alternate members)
EDiTH GREEN, Oregon
FRANK THOMPSON, In., New Jersey
JOHN H. DENT, Pennsylvania
ROMAN C. PUCINSKI, Illinois
DOMINICK V. DANIELS, New Jersey
JOHN BRADEMAS, Indiana
(MR. HATHAWAY, MRS. MINK, and
MR. CLAY, alternate members)
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CONTENTS
Hearings held in Washington, D.C.: Page
April 30, 1969 1443
May 1, 1969 1525
May 2, 1969 1635
May 5, 1969 1819
May 6, 1969 1945
May 7, 1969 2089
Statement of-
Albert, Hon. Carl, a Representative in Congress from the State of
Oklahoma 1443
Allen, Robert, director, Texas Office of Economic Opportunity 2105
American Law School Panel, Prof. Frank Sander, Harvard University
Law School, accompnained by Dr. Melvin Kennedy, Prof. Sanford
Rosen, Dean William Lockhart, Michael H., Cardozo, and Peter
L. Wolff 1857
Belindo, John, executive director, National Congress of American
Indians 1499
Brady, Byron, director, Washington State Office of Economic Op-
portunity 2006
Benson, Mrs. Bruce, president, League of Women Voters, accompanied
by Mrs. G. R. Nugent, Mrs. Merlyn E. Richardson, Mrs. Robert
Warren, and Mrs. D. R. Waterman 1526
Burns, Dorothy, Tongue Point Job Corps Center, Astoria, Oreg. - - - 1983
Cavanagh, Hon. Jerome, mayor, city of Detroit, Mich 1949
Chapel, Mr 1734
Clapper, Louis S., director of conservation, National Wildlife Federa-
tion 1488
Corcoran, Msgr. Lawrence, U.S. Catholic Charities, U.S. Conference of
Bishops, accompanied by Father John McCarthy, Division of
Poverty, U.S. Catholic Conference 1578
Coronado, Mrs. Dominga G., on behalf of the American GI Forum
Ladies Auxiliary 2056
Dolbey, Mrs. James M., president, Church Women United, ac-
companied by Miss Dorothy Height, Mrs. Norman Folda, Mrs.
Leonard H. Weiner, Mrs. Rosenwald, Mrs. Henry Karpelhof, Mrs.
Albert Lasday, Mrs. E. H. Tout, Mrs. James Robinson, and
Mrs. Dominga G. Coronado 2037
Dorland James, moderator, associate director, Division of Adult
Education, NEA, Washington, D.C., joined by Mrs. Yvonne
Brown, Mrs. Edna Fields, Robert Bridgeman, and Olena Proffit - 1657
Dorland, James, associate director, Division of Adult Education,
NEA, joined by Dr. Carl Minich, Dr. David Paynter, Fred Breit,
Robert Nelson, and Dr. Carl Hassel 1668
Edwards, Rheable, director, Headstart, Boston, Mass 1889
Ellis, Mrs. Darlene 1743
Flagg, Lewis S., III, Washington Bureau, National Bar Association - - 1841
Fullbright, John, Director, Ottowa Job Corps Centers, Port Clinton,
Ohio_ 2112
Glassman, Caroline, vice president, Down East (WICS), Portland,
Oreg 1598
Goldenberg, I. Ira, director, Training and Research Institute for
Residential Youth Centers, New Haven, Conn., accompanied by
Wesley Forbes 1608
Grantham, J. 0., vice president, Northern Systems 2090
Hecht, George J., chairman, American Parents Committee, Inc., and
Publisher of Parents' Magazine, accompanied by Barbara D.
McGarry 1593
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Iv
Statement of-Continued
Levitan, Dr. Sar A., director, Center for Manpower Policy, George Page
Washington University 1899
Masterton, Mrs. Robert R., Cape Elizabeth, Minn 1629
Mifier, Mrs. Richard, Carson City, Nev., and Mrs. Robert Klein,
president, League of Women Voters of New Jersey 1626
Mock, Albert K., Jr., president, Enterprises Development, Inc.,
Berea, Ky., accompanied by Eugene I. Mooney, professor of law,
University of Kentucky; and Gerald M. Osborne, treasurer, Enter-
prises Development, Inc., Berea, Ky 1744
Monroe, Jeff, director, West Virginia Office of Economic Opportunity 2013
Moorhead, Hon. William S., a Representative in Congress from the
State of Pennsylvania, accompanied by Mr. Albert Charles, Hill
District, Operation Lift, MDTA; Mrs. Clementine Ward, North,
family service-housing rehabilitation; Mrs. Carmen Favela, south-
west, health careers; Richard Thomas, South Oakland, youth and
recreation; James ~`Ialone, Homewood-Buston, BICEP, Bethesda;
David Murphy, Lawrenceville, day care; Mrs. Isabelle Bell, East
Liberty, aged; Paul Ciccone; David Epperson; Mrs. Dorothy Irwin,
board member of community action, Pittsburgh; and Robert
Pease, board member, community action, Pittsburgh 1728
Pickle, Hon. J. J., a Representative in Congress from the State of
Texas 1635
Pomeroy-, Kenneth B., chief forester, American Forestry Association,
Washington, D.C 1496
Reid, Joseph H., executive director, Child Welfare League of America,
New York, N.Y 1923
Robb, John D., chairman, American Bar Association Committee on
Legal Aid and Indigent Defendants 1838
Segal, Bernard G., president-elect, American Bar Association 1819
Smith, Rev. Perry, executive director, Prince Georges County, Md.,
and head, county community action committee, accompanied by
Mrs. Caroline Wood, Mrs. Ruth Wolf, Mrs. Betty Ellis, and Mrs.
Dorothy Longus 1871
Smith, Spencer M., secretary, Citizens Committee on Natural Re-
sources 1471
Stickney, Paul H., and Everett W. Hackney, representing Washing-
ton, prayer breakfast 2135
Templeton, Arleigh, president, Sam Houston State College, Hunts-
ville, Tex., Texas Education Foundation 1636
Voorhees, Theodore, past president, National Legal Aid & Defender
Association 1836
Williams, James, assistant director, Operation DIG 1740
Wilson, Mayo D., chairman, Mississippi Head Start, Directors
Association, Clarksdale, Miss 2121
Wright, Harold, president, Indiana Farmers Union 2104
Prepared statements, letters, supplemental material, etc.:
"Agnew Says Officials Should `Run' Programs," newspaper article
entitled 1933
Albert, Carl, a Representative in Congress from the State of Oklahoma:
Akers, Darrel, Sulphur, Okla., letter to Congressman Albert,
dated April 14, 1969 1453
Braden, Tim, Sulphur, Okia., letter to Congressman Albert - - - 1453
Bruner, Dolisa, Sulphur, Okla., letter to Congressman Albert,
dated April 15, 1969 1541
Bumpus, Lisa, Sulphur, Okla., letter to Congressman Albert,
dated April 15, 1969 1452
Caidwell, Gayla, Sulphur, Okla., letter to Congressman Albert,
dated April 16, 1969 1452
Chev R. L. Boles, Sulphur, 0km., telegram from 1450
Christy, Patsy, Sulphur, Okla., letter to Congressman Albert,
dated April 17, 1969 1451
crone, Jay, Sulphur, Okia., letter to Congressman Albert, dated
April 14 1969 1453
Donald Dr., Jack, Sulphur, Okia., telegram from 1449
Fieldssmaster, B. J., sergeant, National Guard, Sulphur, Okla.,
telegram from 1450
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V
Prepared statements, letters; supplemental material, etc.-Continued
Albert, Carl, a Representative in Congress-Continued
Frantz, Sue, Sulphur, Okia., letter tO Congressman Albert, dated Page
April 14, 1969 1453
Hammons, Lisa, Sulphur, Okia., letter to Congressman Albert,
dated April 15, 1969 1450
Hoffman, Allen, Sulphur, Okia., letter to Congressman Albert,
dated April 14, 1969 1452
Howeth, Jimmy, Sulphur, Okia., letter to Congressman Albert,
dated April 15, 1969 1452
Hudson, Nell, registered nurse, Sulphur, Okia., telegram from. - - - 1450
Irons, Gerald, Sulphur, Okia., letter to Congressman Albert,
dated April 16, 1969 1541
James Wheatley Cleaners, Sulphur, Okia., telegram from 145Q
"Job Corps Trainees Have Good Record-Hodgens Area Citi-
zens Ired by Closing Order," article in Tulsa Sunday World,
April 27, 1969 1455
Johnson, Cliff, Sulphur, Okia., telegram from 144~
Knight, Glanda, Sulphur, Okia., letter to Congressman Albert,
dated April 14, 1969 1452
Linkous, Leslie, Sulphur, Okia., letter to Congressman Albert,
dated April 14, 1969 1453
Mann, Connie, Sulphur, Okla., letter to Congressman Albert,
dated April 14, 1969 1451
Monjay, Debbie, Sulphur, Okia., letter to Congressman Albert,
dated April 12, 1969 1452
National recreation area economy bill and Loyd Appliance,
Sulphur, Okia., telegram from 1450
Oklahoma State Legislature, enrolled House Concurrent Resolu-
tion No. 1024 1455
Powell, Bobby, Sulphur, Okia., letter to Congressman Albert,
dated April 14, 1969 1450
Reese, Patty, Sulphur, Okia., letter to Congressman Albert,
dated April 14, 1969 1453
Rogalla, Justin, Sulphur, Okla., telegram from 1449
Smith, Allen, Sulphur, Okia., letter to Congressman Albert,
dated April 14, 1969 1451
Spindle, Schel, Sulphur, Okia., letter to Congressman Albert,
dated April 14, 1969 1454
Sulphur Chamber of Commerce, et al., telegram from 1454
Swartz, Andy, Sulphur, Okia., letter to Congressman Albert,
datedAprill4, 1969 1454
Allen, Bob G., director, Texas Office of Economic Opportunity, pre-
pared statement of 2015
Anderson, Dr. Dewey, treasurer of the citizens Committee on Natural
Resources, statement of 1485
Baker, 0. J., executive director, Texas Educational Foundation, Inc.,
San Marcos, Tex.:
Letter to Chairman Perkins, dated April 17, 1969 1655
Letter to Hon. Marvin L. Esch, a Representative in Congress from
the State of Michigan, dated May 12, 1969 1654
"poverty Warriors Miss Proper Target in Battle?" a newspaper
editorial entitled 1656
"The Guess Of Death," a newspaper editorial entitled _ 1655
Belindo, John, executive director, National Congress of American
Indians:
Adams, Clarence, chairman, Fort Belknap Community Council,
Harlem, Mont., telegram from 1510
Childers, Col. Ernest (retired), Washington, D.C., letter to
President Nixon, dated April 17, 1969 1511
Chino, Wendell, president, Mescalero Apache Tribe, telegram
from 1510
Indian Corps of Women, Clinton Job Corps Center, Clinton, Iowa,
telegram from 1510
Letter to Chairman Perkins, dated May 5, 1969 1514
Mansfield, Hon. Mike, a U.S. Senator from the State of Montana,
telegram to President 1511
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VI
Prepared statements, letters, supplemental material, etc.-Continued
Belindo, John, executive director, National Congress of American
Indians-Continued
Mansfield, Hon. Mike~ a U.S. Senator from the State of Montana, Page
letter to President Nixon, dated April 10, 1969 1510
Resolution No. 1.-1968 policy statement of the National
Congress ofAmericanlndians 1501
Resolution No. 7 1502
Resolution No. 24 1502
Benson, Mrs. Bruce, president, League of Women Voters of United
States, Amherst, Mass. Appendix.-Excerpts from recent surveys
made by local leagues on the poverty program 1533
Blair, Gordon, chairman, El Dorado County Committee To Preserve
Sl~r Park, et al., letter to El Dorado County Community Orga-
nizations and members, dated April 21, 1969 1517
Boin, Mrs. Saul, project director, WTICS, North Hollywood, Calif.,
letter to Chairman Perkins, dated April 30, 1969 2087
Brady, Byron, director, Washington State Office of Economic
Opportunity:
Letter to Hon. Gaylord Nelson, a United States Senator from the
State of Wisconsin, dated April 22, 1969 2012
"Programs of the Office of Economic Opportunity in Washington
State and Recommendations for Economic Opportunity Legis-
lative and Administrative Action," an article entitled 2007
Brown, Yvonne H., teacher, Project Interchange, Prince Georges
County, Mid., prepa.red testimony of 1657
Burns, Dorothy, director, Tongue Point Job Corps Center, Astoria,
Oreg.:
Letter to Hon. John Dellenback, a Representative in Congress
from the State of Oregon, dated December 16, 1968 1984
Letter to Hon. George P. Shultz, Secretary of Labor, dated Feb-
ruary 27, 1969 1983
"Calcasieu Parish Anti-Poverty Program Employees To Get High
Salaries," a newspaper article entitled 1934
Cavanagh, Jerome P., mayor, Detroit, Much., on behalf of the Na-
tional League of Cities, U.S. Conference of Mayors and Detroit, pre-
pared statement of 1945
Chapman, Rev. Robert C., director for racial justice, National Coun-
cil of the Churches of Christ, letter to Chairman Perkins, dated
April 25, 1969 2079
Church, Mrs. Fred J., vice president, YWCA of the U.S.A., chairman
eastern region, letter to Chairman Perkins, enclosing a petition,
dated April 29, 1969 1723
Clapper, Louis S., director of conservation, National Wildlife Federa-
tion:
"Straight Talk," by Ernie Swift, a magazine article entitled 1488
"The Job Corps in Conservation," a magazine article entitled. 1490
Corcoran, Msgr. Lawrence J., secretary, National Conference of
Catholic Charities, prepared statement of 1578
"Conflicts in Iowa GAP Program `Aired'," a newspaper article en-
titled 1936
Corpsmen of Sly Park Job Corps Center, Pollock Pines, Calif., letter
to Rep. Harold T. Johnson, dated April 10, 1969 1518
Cotter, William 0., center director, Sly Park Civilian Conservation
Center, letter with enclosures to Representative Harold T. Johnson,
dated April 14, 1969 1518
Dolbey, Mrs. James Mi., president, Church Women United, and others,
letter to Hon. Gaylord Nelson, a U.S. Senator from the State of
Wisconsin, dated May 5, 1969 2075
Edmonds, Mrs. Josephine, president, National Council of Negro
Women, Inc., Los Angeles, Calif., letter to Chairman Perkins, dated
May 1 1969 2074
Edwards, Mrs. Rheable Mi., director, Headstart, Action for Boston
Community Development, Inc., Boston, Mass., prepared statement
of 1884
"Employees Hit for Collecting OEO Expenses," a newspaper article
entitled 1934
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VII
Prepared statements, letters, supplemental material, etc.-Continued
Esfeld, Mrs. William E., Great Bend, Kans., letter to Chairman Page
Perkins, dated April 29, 1969 2074
Estaville, Lawrence E., Lake Charles, La., letter to Chairman Perkins,
dated April 30, 1969 1927
Fields, Edna R., prepared statement of 1658
"Fired GAP Official Charges Pro-Labor Control of Hiring," a news-
paper article entitled 1938
"GAP Board Confronted With Petition and Protest at Meet," a news-
paper article entitled 1943
"GAP Re-evaluation Needed," a newspaper editorial entitled 1935
"GAP To Seek Funds for Food, Medicine," a newspaper article
entitled 1932
"GAP To Try Again To Name Director," a newspaper article
entitled 1929
Gardner, John W., chairman, Urban Coalition Action Council, pre-
pared statement Of 1716
Goldenberg, I. Ira., Ph. D., executive director, TRI-RYC, Inc.,
Training and Research Institute for Residential Youth Centers,
Inc., New Haven, Conn., letter to Robert E. McCord, chief clerk
and senior specialist, dated May 28, 1969 1622
Gregory, Phyllis (Mrs. Arthur), president, League of Women Voters
of Billings, Mont., et al., letter to Chairman Perkins, dated April
27, 1969 1577
"Gulf Assistance Program Director's Qualifications Are Lowered by
Board," a newspaper article entitled 1936
Hacker, Jessamine (Mrs. W. E.), WICS representative in Redlands,
Calif., letter to Chairman Perkins, dated May 2, 1969 2084
Hathaway, Hon. William D., a Representative in Congress from
the State of Maine:
"Our Job Corps," a newspaper editorial entitled 2135
"Poland Spring Closing," a newspaper editorial entitled 2134
Hallaren, Mary A., executive director, Women In Community Service,
Inc., Washington, D.C.:
"It's $5,000 First, Then Operation Follows to Save Lincolnite,"
a newspaper article entitled 2055
Letter to the committee, dated May 13, 1969 2054
Hall, John L., assistant executive director, Wilderness Society, Wash-
ington, D.C., statement of 1522
Hecht, George J., chairman, American Parents Committee, Inc., and
publisher, Parents' magazine, "Equal Rights for All Children," an
editorial entitled 1595
Height, Dorothy I., national president, National Council of Negro
Women, Inc., prepared statement of 2043
"Hiring Procedures of GAP Under Fire," a newspaper article entitled_ 1940
Holdstein, Mrs. Barthold, project director, WICS, Cleveland, Ohio:
Letter from Paul Berthelot, senior counselor, Job Corps Center
for Women, Excelsior Springs, Mo., dated March 14, 1969~ -- 2129
Letter from Percy Walker, coordinator, Office Occupation De-
partment, Job Corps Center for Women, Excelsior Springs,
Mo., dated April 1969 2130
Letter from Percy Walker, coordinator, Office Occupation De-
partment, Job Corps Center for Women, Excelsior Springs,
Mo., dated May 1969 2129
Summary of information from our files on Rosemary Denise
Milner, dated April 30, 1969 2129
Holt, Maxine, Cleveland, Ohio, letter from, dated May 1, 1969 2128
Ingram, Paul E., executive secretary, Port Clinton Chamber of Com-
merce, Port Clinton, Ohio, letter to Chairman Perkins, dated
May 2, 1969 2127
"Job Corps Facts," an article entitled 2076
"Knowles Asks State Use of OEO Funds," a newspaper article en-
titled 1930
Levitan, Dr. Sar A., director, Center for Manpower Policy Studies,
George Washington University:
Prepared statement of 1900
"The Great Society's Poor Law," a publication article entitled-- 1900
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vilE
Prepared statements, letters, supplemental material, etc.-Continued
Luther, Mrs. Everett B., Phoenix, Ariz., letter to Chairman Perkins, Page
dated May 6, 1969 2084
Mayr, Hans A., county superintendent, Office of Education, Placer-
vile, Calif.:
Letter to President Nixon, dated April 24, 1969 1516
Letter to Chairman Perkins, dated April 25, 1969 1516
McCarthy, Rev. John, director, U.S. Catholic Conference, prepared
testimony of 1584
Miller, Mrs. Richard, Carson City, Nev.:
"Comments," a publication article entitled 1631
Fact sheet on Clear Creek Job Corps Center 1632
"League Protests," a publication article entitled 1630
Memorandum from Sherman B. Boyce, District Ranger D-1_~ 1630
Publication article by Director Smith 1631
Milliken, William G., Governor, State of Michigan, Lansing, Mich.,
letter to Charles A. Byrley, director, National Governors' Con-
ference, Washington, D.C., dated March 31, 1969 1973
Minich, Dr. Carl E., coordinator, Project Interchange, National
Education Association:
Prepared statement of 1677
"Project Interchange-A Summary Report of the First Two
Years," a pamphlet entitled 1679
Report on the First 2 Years of Project Activity, 1966-68, OEO
Contract No. 1305 1695
"To Know Them . . . One by One," a booklet entitled 1686
Mock, Albert K., Jr., president, Enterprises Development, Inc.,
Berea, Ky.:
A proposal for the creation and management of a new capital
base in underdeveloped areas 1752
Address to MRCDC "Second Citizens' Seminar for Action" by
Prof. Eugene F. Mooney 1768
CSM-EDA enterprise development project interim report 1762
GMPDC bankers' meeting, Gainesville, Ga 1773
Implementation of the Small Business Investment Act of 1958_ - 1756
Proceedings, CSi\I Regional Development Commission meetings 1777
Synopsis of CSM-EDA enterprise development project 1749
Morris, Carla, letter to Frederick M. Hufford, manager, Placement-
Enrollee Administration, Job Corps Center for Women, Charleston,
W. Va., with enclosure, dated December 17, 1968 1551
"New Director of GAP Assumes Position Today," a newspaper article
entitled 1931
Nugent, Mrs. Robert, president, League of Women Voters, Morgan-
town, W. Va., letter from Solita Mae Chase 1550
"OEO Wire Draws Reply From Officer," a newspaper article en-
titled 1931
"Officers for GAP Named," a newspaper article entitled 1937
Pomeroy-, Kenneth B., chief forester, American Forestry Association,
Washington, D.C., statement of the American Forestry Associa-
tion 1496
"President Says GAP Follows Health Code," a newspaper article
entitled - 1942
Richardson, Mrs. Merlyn E., past president, League of Women Voters
of Georgia, prepared statement of 1526
Richmond, Dr. Julius, dean, College of Medicine, Syracuse Univer-
sity, and professor and chairman of the Department of Pediatrics,
State University of New York, Up-State Medical Center, formerly
national director of Headstart program, statement by 1597
Robinson, Mrs. James, member, Women in Community Service, Inc.,
Cleveland, Ohio:
Letter from Gerilyn Kabot, dated April 26, 1969 2130
Letter from Margret Ann Orr, Hartford, Conn., dated April 22,
1969 2131
Letter from Mrs. Howard M. Kohn, Shaker Heights, Ohio,
dated April 29, 1969 2131
Letter from Mrs. Barthold M. Holdstein, Shaker Heights, Ohio,
dated April 1969 2132
PAGENO="0009"
Ix
Prepared statements, letters, supplemental material, etc.-Continued
Robinson, Mrs. James, member, Women in Community Service, Inc.,
Cleveland, Ohio-Continued Page
Letter from Birdie Meshorer (Mrs. H. S.), dated April 28, 1909.. 2132
Letter from Mrs. Lawrence G. Knecht, Cleveland Heights,
Ohio, dated April 24, 1969 2132
Letter from Marjorie M. Herrick, Cleveland WICS project
director, 1966 2133
Letter from Dorothy Koeblitz (Mrs. William), Cleveland, Ohio,
dated May 5, 1969 2133
Letter from Margie Sutton, Cleveland, Ohio, dated April 28, 1969.. 2133
Statistics on Cleveland WICS operation 2134
Rosenwald, Mrs. Robert E., member, Kansas City Council of Jewish
Women:
Telegram from five women, Kansas City, Mo., to President
Nixon 2082
Telegram from 100 women sent to President Nixon 2081
Sander, Frank, professor, Harvard Law School:
"The 1967 Lawyer Statistical Report," a report entitled 1866
Wolff, Peter L., assistant to the executive director, Association of
American Law Schools, letter to H. D. Reed, Jr., general
counsel, dated May 16, 1969 1866
Scherer, Charles A., Clinton Men's Wear, Inc., Port Clinton, Ohio,
letter to Chairman Perkins, dated May 2, 1969 2121
"Secret GAP Meet Okays Pay Hikes," a newspaper article entitled_ 1940
Segal, Bernard G., president-elect, American Bar Association:
Exhibit No. 1.-Communities visited by representatives of
American Bar Association, National Bar Association, and
National Legal Aid and Defender Association 1829
Exhibit No. 2-Progress report of the National Commission on
the causes and prevention of violence, to President johnson.... - 1829
Exhibit No. 3.-"Lawyers Turning to Aid to Poor," a newspaper
article entitled 1833
Exhibit No. 4.-Target areas of unmet legal services for the poor_ 1835
Soil, George, chairman, American Jewish Congress, New York, N.Y.,
letter to Chairman Perkins, dated April 17, 1969 2075
"The Informer," a newspaper article entitled 1943
Tracy, Mrs. Donald, project director, Women in Community Service,
Detroit, Mich., letter to Chairman Perkins, enclosing letters from
Job Corps girls, dated April 15, 1968 2078
Tunney, Hon. John V., a Representative in Congress from the State
of California, statement of 1519
Wagner, Mrs. I. H., WICS coordinator, north Missouri, letter to
Chairman Perkins, dated May 3, 1969 2077
"Ware's Firing Is Upheld at GAP Directors Meet," a newspaper article
entitled 1939
Warren, Mrs. Robert, director, League of Women Voters of Ohio,
prepared statement of 1527
Waterman, Mrs. Denison R., president-elect of the League of Women
Voters of Iowa, Muscatine, Iowa, appendix to statement of 1548
Weiner, Mrs. Leonard H., president, National Council of Jewish
Women, prepared statement of 2048
"West Cal Unit Still Protests GAP Offices," a newspaper article
entitled 1942
Williams, Mrs. W. S., president, League of Women Voters, Tucson,
Ariz., letter to Hon. Morris K. Udall, a Representative in Congress
from the State of Arizona, dated April 28, 1969 1632
Wilson, Mayo D., Clarksdale, Miss., telegram to Chairman Perkins 2126
Yordy, Mrs. Alvin R., Denver, Cob., letter to Chairman Perkins,
dated May 4, 1969 2085
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ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY AMENDMENTS OF 196w
WEDNESDAY APRIL 30, 1969
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
TASK FORCE ON POVERTY OF THE
COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR,
Washington, D.C..
The task force met at 9 :45 a.m., pursuant to recess, in room 2175~
Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Carl P. Perkins (chairman of
the committee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Perkins, Green, Hawkins, Hathaway,
Mink, Clay, Quie, Reid, Scherle, Steiger, Landgrebe, and Hansen.
Staff members present: H. P. Reed, Jr., general counsel; William
F. Gaul, associate general counsel; Robert E. McCord, chief clerk and
senior specialist; Charles W. Radcliffe, minority counsel for education;
and John Buckley, chief minority investigator.
Chairman PERKINS. The committee will come to order. A quorum
is present.
It is a great pleasure for me to welcome here a close friend, a former
member of this committee, and majority leader in the House of Repre-
sentatives, to tell us something about this $100 million cut that is being
proposed by the administration. This eliminates one-third of our
urban centers and two-thirds of the conservation centers, some 63
centers all told. It involves half of the Job Corps enrollees, some
17,500.
I have listened to the Secretary say that they were going to place
them. But they don't plan to give them the quality training that they
are presently receiving, because it would be in an entirely different
atmosphere. The so-called skill center plant will not work, in my
judgment. If it is permitted to go through, we are going to throw
millions of dollars down the drain.
I am just delighted to welcome you here, Mr. Albert. Naturally we
want the benefit of your views.
STATEMENT OP HON. CARL ALBERT, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS PROM THE STATE OP OKLAHOMA
Mr. ALBERT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
May I reciprocate the kind words you had to say about me. I have
said it to many people: You certainly are a bulwark of strength in this
House and on this committee, and I think every Member of the House
knows that.
My purpose in testifying here today is to add my voice to those on
both sides of the aisle who are convinced that in acting to close down
59 Job Corps centers, the administration is making a serious and
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1444
`costly mistake. Mr. Chairman, I know that you have been conscien-
tiously developing an exhaustive analysis of this action on the part
of the administration and I merely wish to add a few personal observa-
tions in my role as Representative of the citizens of Oklahoma?s Third
Congressional District. I do so not as an advocate of partisan causes,
but as one who is deeply concerned with the welfare of our young
people, and with the conservation of our resources, both natural and
human.
I am at a loss, Mr. Chairman, to understand the reasoning of the
administration in this instance. How can the administration square
this admimstration position with the White House statement of Feb-
ruary 19 on the Economic Opportunity Act?
That was a lofty, reasoned, thoughtful document which tends to
inspire our confidence in the future of the war on poverty. It talks of
providing time for the Congress to debate fully and discuss the future
of OEO. It talks of the value of having in the Federal Government an
agency whose special concern is the poor. it talks of the economies, the
efficiency, and the better program management to be expected from the
delegation of J~b Corps to the Labor Department.
One gets the definite impression that the administration intends to
shuffle boxes around on a chart while it figures out what to do next,
after which the Congress is free to debate the issues.
What are we to think about the administration's February 19 state-
ment when Secretary Shultz tells us that the administration plans to
cut the Job Corps by $100 million, from $280 million down to $180
million? What are we to think when the administration has unilater-
ally decided to cut a popular program such as the Job Corps by
almost 45 percent before the appropriation hearings have even
been scheduled?
What are `we to think when the administration has decided to close
down 59 Job Corps centers, cost over 6,000 people their jobs, turn
36,000 young men and women back to their dreary hopeless environ-
ments, terminate $40 million worth of contracts with American in-
dustry, wreck dozens of painfully negotiated agreements with building
trade unions to train young men in our conservation centers, cause
almost 60 communities to lose the taxes and local business that stems
from a $55 million payroll. chuck an investment by our taxpayers of
over $70 million right out the window, and finally, arouse the righteous
`wrath and indignation of the conservation interests in this country?
What indeed, Mr. Chairman, are we to think?
Mr. Chairman, the administration is doing away with 59 Job Corps
centers without permitting the Congress properly to express itself on
this matter or to authorize this action. That is a basic constitutional
question. Policy should be decided in the House of Representatives and
that has been the historic position and as I understand it. that was the
position of the administration `when it was making its campaign
across the country and complaining of the efforts on behalf of the
then-President of the United States to inject himself into the opera-
tions of the legislative branch.
It seems to me that the administration has almost completely ignored
the Job Corps accomplishments and has acted through the Labor De-
partment-which I believe as of this date lacks any legal authorit~~
over the Job Corps-to execute these drastic retrenchments in a vital
PAGENO="0013"
1445
national program. Even though the President said that the Labor
Department would take over control on July 1, we find officials of the
Labor Department making all the major decisions now.
I supported the Reorganization Act. I believe in giving the President
the authority to juggle things around in the interest of efficiency and
economy. But here is an action coming before the transfer is made., if
I understand what is taking place, and I haven't been very well in-
formed, I must confess.
I learned about these Job `Corps cutbacks when I was watching a
group of Job Corps workers working on a conservation highway at
a natiOnal forest in my district. That is `the first time in 23 years that
any `action has been taken with respect to any Federal project in my
district-and this was true of 8 years of Eisenhower-that I wasn't
notified in advance of what the administration proposed to do in my
district.
They have decided on the magnitude of the cut, they have decided on
where the cuts are coming from out of the Job Corps budget, they
have decided which centers to close, they have decided that rural cen-
ters `are less effective than urban centers, they have decided that the
answer is to open up 30 new minicenters. They have made all these
decisions before even getting the program officially, Mr. Chairman, or
before `they got the program in the Labor Department they have made
these decisions, as I understand it. I hope I `am correctly informed,
becau'se I have found it very difficult to get correctly informed on this
matter.
To thi's date I have not had a word about this thing from the admin-
istration. I called the White House the very night that I heard about
it and friends of mine at the White House tried to find out what was
going on, but even they didn't know what was going on.
What if the Department proceeds to close down the centers and
then does not receive the authorization to open up the 30 new ones?
That certainly is within the realm of possibility. Congress is going to
make the appropriations under which these new centers operate.
is the Secretary prepared to take that chance? If the Congress were
able to assure him today, which of course we cannot, that he would
not get the $30 million for the 30 new centers, would he still proceed
to close the 59 centers? I don't know. There is very specific legislation
on the Job Corps-of course, this committee knows that `better than
anybody else-and I suspect these 30 new centers do not meet the
legislative authority of the act.
The Labor Department seems to believe that these things-I am
talking about the existing Job Corps and particular Conservation
Corps centers are simply `bunkhouses where people merely sleep, where-
as the Job Corps Act requires that the Job Corps program furnish a
full range of services: educational, vocational, health, counseling, rec-
reation `and others.
Ancillary questions are also raised such as congressional limitations
on costs, percent of males in conservation centers.
I supported the gentlelady in her amendment to require that a cer-
tain. number of the Job Corpsmen, as I recall it, be women.
`Can they act on this authority to say that only 10 percent ,of them
will be' women? The legislation is ju'st as substantive on other issues~
Just how far do they think they c'm go in shuffling things around ~
PAGENO="0014"
1446
All of these things, I think, concern all of us. Does the Labor De-
partment intend to ignore the law in the process of this massive close-
down? I know the two Job Corps centers in my district. I think they
are two of the best in the country: The Arbuckle Center in Murray
County and the Hodgens Center in Le Flore County.
Both of these centers have contributed and are contributing enor-
mously to natural resource conservation and the protection of wildlife
in their respective areas, as well as to the conservation and renewal
of otherwise hopeless and wasted young lives. Both centers have become
vital, contributing parts of their local communities and are enthusias-
tically supported by local citizens.
I was therefore astonished and dismayed to learn-without the
slightest word from the administration-that these two exemplary con-
servation centers are to be closed.
The cost value of the Arbuckle Center-including facilities, equip-
ment and supplies-is $1,000,678 paid for by the American taxpayer
as an investment in American youth. That investment would be abro-
gated by the administration. The annual contribution of the Arbuckle
Center to the local economy is $596,735.
Since the center's inception, the value of conservation-related proj-
ects completed by Arbuckle Corpsmen has been $999,480-nearly a mil-
lion dollars worth of invaluable, lasting conservation work.
Oklahoma is not blessed as many States are with national parks. We
have one small national park, Platt National Park, adjacent to which
~we have built a reclamation darn, called the Lake of the Arbuckles.
This is the only national park in the State of Oklahoma and the Job
Corps boys are working on these little projects, which are the closest
thing that the average person who cannot afford to go to Yellow-
stone or come to Washington, D.C. or go elsewhere to see national
monuments and parks can go to. This is their only place and the facili-
ties are totally inadequate and the Job Corpsmen have done as much
as anybody in the long history of that park, insofar as I have been
able to find out, to accommodate it to the use of people who want to
use it.
During the first half of this fiscal year, $128,000 worth of Arbuckle
conservation projects were completed, including: improvement of a
local swimming beach, public campground construction, construction
of public shelters, construction and installation of local information
and directional signs, and public road construction.
The value of these and other projects to countless Americans is in-
estimable. Consider, for instance, the difficulty of attempting to place
a dollar value. upon the 10,000 young trees planted by Arbuckle Corps-
men in Platt National Park, or on the picnic and recreational areas on
the Lake of the Arbuckles, constructed and developed by the corpsmen
in cooperation with the National Park Service.
And as every person who loves the outdoors knows, the value of such
work accrues not merely to the land which is improved or made more
beautiful, but to the worker as well. Indeed, the intangible value of a
young corpsman of working to preserve his Nation's natural resources
may be a much more significant factor in determining his chances for
a worthwhile life than cold statistics on starting wages and placement.
To follow my point just a bit further, roads built by Arbuckle Corps-
men permitted 152,606 tourists to visit the Lake of the Arbuckles rec-
reation area in 1967. In 1968 with additional facilities constructed and
PAGENO="0015"
1447
roads improved, there were 428,179 visitors. The dollar value of tourism
and recreation added to the local economy through the work of Ar-
buckle Corpsmen is already $1.5 million, and a recent study indicates
that this figure will soon become $37 million per year, with an annual
2.5 million visitor-days spent at the picnic and recreation areas de-
veloped by Job Corpsmen from the Arbuckle Center.
Mr. Chairman, I could go on and on. I could expand on the "Toys
for Tots" project undertaken by the Arbuckie Corpsmen for needy
youngsters at Ohristmastime, financed by the corpsmen themselves. I
could recount the warm feelings of friendship and affection demon-
strated by local groups toward the corpsmen, such as the individual
Christmas gifts purchased by the Sulphur Business and Professional
Women's Club for the corpsmen.
I could describe the participation of corpsmen in activities spon-
sored by the Sulphur Kiwanis and Lions `Club-or the wonderful rec-
ord of blood bank donations consistently made by the corpsmen on
both a regular and emergency basis.
I don't believe there is a place in the United States where there is
greater cooperation, greater esprit de corps between the town and the
camp than exists at Arbuckle and at the Hodgens Camp. Boys are in-
vited to the churches regardless of race. They are given every consider-
ation. They all like the place. I talked to practically every one of them
every time I have been in my district. I go around and shake hands
with the Job Corpsmen and ask them what they think of it.
I don't do it in front of the manager. I do it boy by boy.
But the overriding fact, the fact which weighs most heavily upon
me at this moment, is that the action of the administration will result
in vastly greater taxpayer expenses for unreclaimed lives that Job
Corps could have saved, in a little or no cost savings, even superficially
because of the vague and uninterested mini-center approach which is
apparently to be launched without congressional consideration or even
without congressional knowledge.
If you have knowledge of it, you have something that I haven't been
able to get. I don't know what they are up to.
This is done in a complete renunciation of the remarkable and in-
valuable conservation work done by conservation center corpsmen.
Mr. Chairman, the same facts apply to the Hodgens Center. The
taxpayers have an investment of $1,270,086 in Hocigens Center, which
annually contributes $813,470 to the local economy. Conservation proj-
ects completed by the center since its inception have a dollar value
of $819,798.
This is located in the only national forest in the Southwest. It is the
most beautiful section of the Southwest. It has lagged in road develop-
ment, and in other developments to make it accessible to the thousands
of people who live in that part of the country and who can't afford to
go to Galveston or to the coast or to the Rocky Mountains or some-
where else to enjoy a short vacation.
Within this fiscal year, $281,443 worth of conservation work projects
are scheduled for completion. A sample of representative projects com-
pleted `by Hodgens Corpsmen would include: construction of camp-
ground buildings, installation of a campground water system, cOn-
struction of a ranger district administration `building, construction of
wildlife watery ponds, location and marking of Federal property
boundaries, and construction of roads and range-road cattleguards
PAGENO="0016"
1448
As in the case of Arbuckle Center, community support for Hodgens
Center has been excellent. And as in the case of Arbuckle, Hoclgens
Corpsmen are largely functional illiterates for whom no other adequate
job prepa.ration and training program exists. There is simply no exist-
ing plan made known by the administration for picking these corps-
men up in an alternative training program upon the closure of their
center, except by transfer to fill vacancies in those centers which re-
main open-a thoroughly unsatisfactory, uneconomical and unrealistic
alternative, especially in light of the fact that the projected number of
vacancies in open centers through the end of the fiscal year is prac-
tically negligible.
We are talking about a number of young men about to be cast to the
winds in the name of "economy." Nationwide some 17,500 young Amer-
icans are to be denied the hope for a decent future which Job Corps
means, to say nothing of the tens of thousands of terribly disadvan-
taged young Americans who will now be precluded from volunteering
for J~b Corps, from volunteering for the opportunity to help them-
selves out of poverty and to help their country solve some of its most
pressino~ problems.
Mr. ~hairman, there are many distressing-and to me bewildering-
aspects of the administration's anti-Job Corps posture. It is difficult to
understand its meat-ax approach to massively cutting back a crucial
national program.
For example, both Arbuckle and Hodgens `have `lower annual costs
per corpsman than many centers which are to remain open, both centers
boast higher earnings for graduates than the national average, both
centers are ideally situated to provide year-round work-training expe-
rience, and both centers are enthusiastically supported by surroundin
communities. How can such policies be explained, much less defended.
Mr. Chairman, the administration professes a commitment to rural
America., and yet it imposes a devastating curtailment on one of the
most effective programs ever devised for bringing grossly disadvan-
taged young people from poor rural communities into the mainstream
of American life.
As Mr. Louis Harris testified last week in detail, Job Corps has
actually been more effective in conservation centers than in urban
centers. By its disastrous attack upon Job Corps conservation cen-
ters-SO of which are to be abolished-the administration promises
to exacerbate the migration of low-income rural youth to the cities,
and thus to worsen the staggering urban problems that beset the
Nation.
I have supported the Job Corps because I believe it offers a balanced
approach and a unique opportunity for rural, as well as urban, young
people in need of a helping hand. Further, it actually reverses the
prevalent trend in many cases by providing disadvantaged urban
youth with an opportunity for a new start in healthy, productive
and rewarding careers in rural areas, in conservation work and related
fields.
Such an opportunity will be denied the young men at Arbuckle and
Hodgens Centers, and thousands of others like them. The admims-
tration's alternative mini-centers provide no answer. They are not in
existence, they are completely untested, they will be oriented to local
youth and they will be almost strictly urban, so that the doors of
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1449
opportunity will be effectively s1~ammed in the face of needy young
people from rural areas.
A commitment to rural America is not. the only one abrogated by the
administration's Job Corps policy. We heard a great deal during last
year's compaign about a commitment to youth, and about efforts to
win the trust and respect of our young people. Yet the only concrete
action of the new administration to date affecting disadvantaged teen-
agers is to cripple if not destroy the Job Corps, and to cancel the
career hopes and aspirations of 1~,5OO young corpsmen and women.
While we read of campus disorder involving many more fortunate
young Americans, the Job Corps quietly proceeds to go about its busi-
ness of salvaging and renewing desperately disadvantaged young lives.
Young people, Mr. Chairman, such as George Foreman of Houston,
Tex., who was such a great credit to his country in winning the Olym-
pic gold medal in heavyweight boxing, after having been saved by the
Job Corps from a wasted life.
What does the administration say, I wonder, to George Foreman's
assertion that the Job Corps is the greatest program ever authorized
for young residents of slums and depressed rural areas?
Mr. Chairman, to wipe out 59 Job Corps centers, including 50 con-
servations centers, is to reverse a pattern of steady hopeful progress
against basic social problems. It is to walk out on disadvantaged young
Americans, especially those in rural areas. It is to promote, rather
than curtail, crime and social disorder. It is to compound, rather than
remedy, imbalances in the economy.
It is to answer the problem of inflation with human want. It is to
break faith with the poor and the young. It is, in my judgment, a
policy completely lacking in elementary social, economic, and political
justification.
I hope, Mr. Chairman, that I have made my position clear. I am
most grateful to you, and to the committee, for giving me this oppor-
tunity to set my views upon the record. I would also ask, Mr. Chair-
man, that I be permitted to submit for inclusion at this point in the
record newspaper articles, letters, and telegrams which I have received
and which demonstrate the widespread community support for the
Hodgens and Arbuckles camps.
(Documents referred to follow:)
SULPHUR, OKLA.
Congressman CARL ALBERT,
Federal Building, McAlester, Okla.:
Graduate of the Arbuckle Job Corps now steady employed and have taken my
rightful place in society.
Ex-Corpsman JUSTIN ROGALLA.
SULPHUR, OKLA.
Congressman CARL ALBERT,
Federal Building, McAlester, Okia.:
All effort requested for Sulphur Job Corps needed for lake development national
area economy.
CLIFF JOHNSON.
Congressman CARL ALBERT,
Federal Building, MeAlester, Okla..:
All effort requested for Sulphur Job Corps needed for lake development national
area economy.
Dr. JACK DONALD.
27-754----69-pt. 3-2
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1450
SULPHUR, OKLA.
CARL ALBERT,
Federal Building, McA [ester, Okia.:
All effort requested for Sulphur Job Corps needed for lake development
national recreation area economy.
SULPHUR, OKLA.
CARL ALBERT.
Federal Building, MeAlester, Okia.:
All effort requested for Sulphur Job Corps needed for lake development national
recreation economy.
JAMES WHEATLEY CLEANERS.
StTI2HUR, OKLA.
CARL ALBERT,
Federal Building, ItTeAlester, Okla.
All effort requested for Sulphur Job Corps needed for lake development
national recreation economy.
NELL HunsoN, Registered Nurse.
SULPHUR, OKLA.
CARL ALBERT,
Federal Building, MeAlester, Ok-la.
All effort requested for Sulphur Job Corps needed for lake development
natinoal recreation economy.
B. J. FIELDSSMASTER, SGD National Guard.
SULPHUR, OKLA.
CARL ALBERT,
Federal Building, MeAlester, Okia.
All effort requested for Sulphur Job Corps needed for lake development
national area economy.
R. L. BOLES CHEV.
CAMERON SCHOOL,
Sulphur, Ok-la., April l~, 1969.
U.S. Representative CARL ALBERT,
U.S. Capitol Building,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR Sm: I am writing you because you are going to cibse the Conservation
Center. I hope you do not close it, because many people will lose their jobs.
I do not want it closed.
Yours truly,
BOBBY POWELL.
CAMERON SCHOOL,
Sulphur, Ok-la., April 15, 1969.
tJ.S. Representative CARL ALBERT,
U.S. Capitol Building,
Washington, D.C.
Dn&n Sm: If you close the Job Corps, the park will not get finished because
the Job Corps boys are going to move away. The Job Corps means a lot to our
community.
They are still working on completing the Arbuckle Recreation area.
Because much of our tax money is being wasted on equipment and buildings,
we know you will try your hardest.
Yours truly,
LISA HAMMONS.
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1451
SULPHUR, OKLA., April 15, 1969.
U.S. Senator FRED HARRIS,
U.S. Capital Building,
Washington, D.C.
DEAi~ Sm: I think you are making a big mistake by closing the Civilian Con-
servation Center. I do not see why you have to do that.
The reasons are:
(1) Many of our friends will have to go away.
(2) The corpsman have done many things to improve Platt National Park, so
the money it takes is worth it.
(3) There will be many people without jobs.
There are many reasons why we do not want you to close the Job Corps Center.
Yours truly,
DOLISA BRUNER.
CAMERON SCHOOL,
Sulphur, Okia., April 16, 1969.
15. S. Representative CARL ALBERT,
U.S. Capitol Building, Washington, D.C.
DEAR REP. CARL ALBERT: Why are you closing Job Corps? The boys that are
there have a good education working in the park and working at the lake.
They help people and work for people.
Your truly,
GERALD IRONS.
CAMERON SCHOOL,
Sulphur, Okla., April 14, 1969.
U. S. Representative CARL ALBERT,
U.S. Capitol,
Washinton, D.C.
DEAR Sin: I am writing to you about the Civilian Conservation Center in Sul-
phur, Oklahoma. I think you are making a big mistake in closing down the Job
Corps Center. We feel that the Job Corps is one of Sulphur's most important
things. We need the Job Corps, because the boys need the training, they help
build necessities for our park, Platt National, and the economy of Sulphur will
be hurt badly. These are just a few reasons that we need the Job Corps. We have
a lot of friends, including my teacher Mrs. Gfflingham, who will have to move
away. Anything you do to help this matter we will appreciate it very much.
Thank you.
Sincerely Yours,
CONNIE MANN.
SULPHUR, OKLA.,
April 17, 1969.
Representative CARL ALBERT,
U.S. Capitol Building,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR Sm: I am writing to you about the closing of the Job Corps. I have
three reasons. First, there is unfinished work in Platt National Park. Second,
the boys need the~ training. Third, the employees contribute much in time, money
and intelligence to our community. Thank you.
Yours truly,
PATSY CHRISTY.
CAMERON SCHOOL,
Sulphur, Okia., April 14, 1969.
U.S. Representative CARL ALBERT,
U.S. Capital Building,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR SIR: I am writing to you about the closing of the Civilian Conservation
Center in our town. We will lose many people in our town, because it is closing.
We have much unfinished work in Platt National Park. Much property and
equipment will be wasted. We will appreciate anything you can do to keep it
open.
Yours truly,
ALLEN SMITH.
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1452
SuI~Him, OKr~t.,
April 14, 1969.
U.S. Representative CARL ALBERT,
U.S. Capitol,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR SIR: I am writing you about the closing of the Job Corps Center. Two
reasons that the Job Corps Center should be keep open is that boys need training
and there is unfinished work in Platt National Park. If you could do anything
to keep it open, I would be more than glad.
Yours truly,
GLENDA KNIGHT.
Suienun, OKLA., April 15, 1969.
U.S. Representative CARL ALBERT,
U.S. Capitol,
Washington., D.C.
DEAR Sm: I write this letter about the Civilian Conservation Center. Our cen~
ter's men have been working in our park and have made progress, but have not
finished their work. Our teacher's husband works out at the center and will have
to leave. If there is anything to keep it open, please do it.
Yours truly,
JIMMY HOWETH.
CAMERON SCHOOL,
Sulphur, Okia., April 16, 1969.
U.S. Representative CARL ALBERT,
U.S. Capitol Building,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR REPRESENTATIVE ALBERT: We don't waiTt the employees to move away.
They have meant much to our community. They have done much to improve Platt
National Park.
Yours truly,
GAYLA CALDWELL.
SULPHUR, OKrA., April 15, 1969.
U.S. Representative CARL ALBERT,
U.S. Capitol Building,
Washington., D.C.
DEAR SIR: I am writing to you about the Job Corps. I do not think it should be
closed. One reason is that most all of the people will be without jobs. Another
reason is that our boys need the training. If you can do anything about it, we
surely would appreciate it.
Sincerely yours,
DEBBIE MONJAY.
SULPHUR, OKLA., April 14, 1969.
U.S. Representative CARL ALBERT,
U.S. Capitol Building,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR REPRESENTATIVE CARL ALBERT: This letter is about the closing of the
Civilian Conservation Center. Here are some reasons why we do not want the
Civilian Conservation Center closed. One is there will be many people without
jobs. Two, much of our tax money will be wasted by unused equipment and
buildings.
Yours truly,
ALLEN HOFFMAN.
SULPHUR, OKrA., April 15, 1969.
U.S. Representative CARL ALBERT,
U.S. Capital Building,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR SIR: I'm writing because I think the job corps should be kept open. The
best reason to me is that one of our teachers will have to move.
Sincerely yours,
LISA BUMPUS.
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1.453
SULPHUR, OKLA., April 14, 1969.
US. Representative CARL ALBERT,
11.5. Capitol Building,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR Sni: I believe that we need the Job Corps. Here are four reasons. 1. We
do not want the employees to move away. They have meant much to our corn-
mñnity. 2. They have done much to help our country. 3. The boys need the train-
ing. 4. We would be wasting our tax money.
Yours truly,
DARREL AKERS.
SULPHUR, OKLA., April 14, 1969.
U.S. Representative CARL ALBERT,
U.S. Capitol,
TI~ ashington, D.C.
DEAR Sm: This letter is about the closing of the civilian conservation center
in Sulphur. Here are a few reasons why you should keep it open. 1. Boys out there
need training. 2. There is some unfinished work at Platt National Park.
Yours truly,
SUE PRANTZ.
SULPHUR, OKLA.
U.S. Representive CARL ALBERT,
U.S. Capitol Building,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR SIR: I am writing to you about the closing of the job corps centers. The
center in Sulphur, Oklahoma has done alot in the Platt National Park area which
is unfinished.
Men will have to move to find more jobs. We will appreciate anything you can
do.
Yours truly,
TIM BRADEN.
SULPHUR, OKLA., April 14, 1969.
U.S. Representative CARL ALBERT,
U.S. Capitol,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR Sm: Why are you closing down the Civilian Conservation Center? The
economy of Sulphur will be hurt. The employees contribute much to our com-
munity. My teacher, Mrs. Gillingharn, has a husband who is a work leader at the
Job Corps Center.
Your truly,
PArrY REESE.
SULPHUR, OKLA., April 14, 1969.
U.S. Representative CARL ALBERT,
U.S. Capitol Building,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR Sm: I am writing to you about the closing of the civilian conservation
centers in Sulphur, Okia. I have three reasons for it remaining open: (1) Boys
need the training, (2) the employees who live there contribute much to our com-
munity, (3) economy of Sulphur or any other town or state will be hurt.
My teacher, Mrs. Gillingham, lives there and I would hate to loose her. Thank
you.
Sincerely yours,
LESLIE LINKOUS.
SULPHUR, OKLA., April 14, 1969.
U. S. Representative CARL ALBERT,
U.S. Capitol Building,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR Sm: Here are a few reasons why I do not want the Job Corps Center
closed. We will be wasting a lot of tax money if the Job Corps Center closed.
Some of the workers will not have a job. We are going to lose a lot of good
citizens.
Yours truly,
JAY CRONE.
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1454
RT. 2, SULPHUR, OKLA.,
April 14, 1969.
U.S. Representative CARL ALBERT,
U.S. Capitol Building,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR Sm: I am writing to you about the closing of the Civilian Conservatioll
Center. Here are six reasons I think it should stay. First, the boys need the
training. Second, there are unfinished projects in the park. Third, the economy
of Murray County will be hurt. Fourth, it will create an unemployment problem.
Fifth, the employees contribute much to our community. Sixth, much property
and equipment will be wasted. Thank you.
Yours truly,
ANDY SWARTn.
209 E. Wxvx ST., SULPHUR, OKLA..
April 14, 1969.
U.S. Representative CARL ALBERT,
U.S. Capitol, Washington, D.C.
DEan CARL ALBERT: This letter is about the closing of the Civilian Conservation
Center in Sulphur, Oklahoma.
I do not think the Civilian Conservation Center should be closed because the
United States of America needs more help in running the country, and maybe
these boys can help us more than we think.
Thank you,
Yours truly,
SCHEL SPINDLE.
SULPHUR, OKLA., April 10. 1969.
DIRECTOR OF OFFICE OF Ecoxo~rIC OPPORTUNITY,
Washington, D.C.:
The undersigned being residents and interested citizens of Sulphur. Murray
County, State of Oklahoma. are vitally concerned regarding the recent news re-
lease from the Department of Labor stating Arbuckle Conservation Center in
Sulphur might be closed. It is our individual and collective opinion, and con-
sensus of the community, that the said Arbuckle Conservation Center is an ex-
cellent Job Corps facility; that the corpsmen have completed and are now- en-
gaged in numerous work projects in Platt National Park and at the Arbuckle rec-
reational area, such as the construction of bridges, roads, comfort stations, boat
ramps, storage buildings, picnic tables, etc, etc; that the corpsmen not only have
the opportunity to gain basic educational skills such as reading, writing, and
mathematics, but also have the opportunity to acquire practical skills such as
welding, sign making, heavy machinery operation, mechanics, carpentry, and gen-
eral construction techniques; that the relationship between the Job Corps Center,
the corpsmen and the community has been and is now excellent; that Sulphur.
being a rural community. offers innumerable advantages to the corpsmen, and
said Corpsmen are more easily and readily integrated into the normal community
life; that a community such as Sulphur permits these young people to be taken
out of and away from the metropolitan ghetto areas. We want to go on record
as wholeheartedly supporting the conservation center in Sulphur, and on behalf
of all the residents of Sulphur and Murray County respectfully urge that saict
facilities not be closed. We request your assistance in helping us keep this Job
Corps open.
(Signed) Sulphur Chamber of Commerce, Phil Hurst, president
Charlie Wooeruff. mayor; J. R. McBee, Chief of Police; Harold
Roady. Sheriff; Glen Key, President of First National Bank: City
Councilman Leo Horsman; Ulys Ward; Dr. H. Ray Goodwin;
Lions Club, Henry Wynn, President; Sulphur Ministerial Asso-
elation; Kiwanis Club; James Ray, Sooner Foods; Murray County
Abstract; Hugh Brinson; Calvin Price Insurance Agency; Calvin
Agee, Superintendent of Sulphur Public Schools; Nowlin Depart-
ment Store: Horace Strayhorn, Oklahoma Gas & Electric: G. L.
Horsman, Horsman Insurance; Okia Tire & Supply; Ben Frankin
Department Store; Mace's Department Store; Bakery:
Rotary Club.
PAGENO="0023"
1455
HousE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION No.' 1024
A concurrent resolution pointing out some accomplishments of the Arbuckle Tob Corps
Center; memorializing President Nixon to order that the Arbuckle Center be kept in
full operation; and directing distribution
WHEREAS, pursuant to recommendations by the President of the United States,
certain job corps training centers `have been ordered to close; and
WHEREAS, among those to be closed is the Arbuckle Job Corps Center a't Sulphur,
Oklahoma; and
WHEREAS, operation of the Sulphur Center has resulted in tremendous strides
of progress in `the surrounding area; and
WHEREAS, part of the regular Work program at the Arbuckle Center has con-
sisted of developing picnic and camping areas and laying roads in the Lake of
the Arbuckle Recreation Area, carrying out various conservation programs such
as planting 10,000 trees in Piatt National Park, and laying water lines to the
new Travertine Nature Center in `the National Park; and
WHEREAS, in today's troubled times when America's youth is rebelling at every
turn and t'he welfare programs are meeting with ever increasing demands from
their recipients, the Arbuckle Center offers numerous opportunities for young
men who want to learn how to get and bold a jdb, presenting work projects in
Welding, masonry, building construction, heavy equipmen't operation, carpentry,
sign building, cooking, equipment maintenance and other areas, with prevoca-
tion'aI training to aid the youth in selection of an appropriate field `to mat'ch his
`aptitudes or interests; and
WHEREAS, the corpsmen `have become valuable assets to the surrounding coin-
inunities and have demonstrated their inclination to become worthwhile citizens
by participating in city clean-up campaigns; mowing the municipal airport
grounds each year; hosting Christm'as parties for needy children and giving toys
they have collected and repaired using their own money for expenses; turning
out in large groups to donate blood `to the Murray County Blood Bank each time
it comes to town; clearing `an area in Sulphur to be used as a playground; assist-
ing in fighting range fires; planting trees `along the street leading to the center;
cleaning the roadway of debris at regular intervals; and by volunteering for the
heartbreaking task of searching f'or the bodies of drowning victims in the Lake
of `the Arbuckles; and
WHEREAS, the cost of operation of `the center is `small when compared to the
value of the work done for the community by the corpsmen and is even smaller
when considered as the cost of saving a boy and making a man.
NOW, THEREFORE, Be it resolved by the House of Representatives of the
first session of the thirty-second Oklahoma Legislature, the Senate concurring
therein:
SECTION 1. The President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, is hereby
respectfully requested to reconsider his decision to close certain job corps centers,
and particularly the Arbuckle Center at Sulphur, Oklahoma, and to order that
th'e Arbuckle Center be kept in full operbtion to ront'inue `the `good it `ha's been
doing for the community, the Platt National Park, and most of all, the corpsmen.
SECTION 2. That duly authenticated copies of this Resolution be distributed
to the President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, the United States Sen-
ate, the United States House of Representatives, and each member of the Okla-
bom'a Congressional Delegation.
ADOPTED by the House of Representatives the 22nd day of April, 1969.
REx PRIVETT,
Bpeaker of the Hoase of Representatives.
ADOPTED by the Senate the 24th day of April, 1969.
FINI5 SMITH,
President of the ~Senate.
[From the Tulsa (Okia.) Sunday World, Apr. 27, 1969]
HODGENS AREA CITIZENS IRED BY CLOSING ORDER, JOB CoRPS TRAINEES
HAvE GOOD RECORD
H0DGEN5.-Near this tiny LeFlore County hamlet, only the muffled `sounds of
Job Corpsmen at work building roads and campsites break the otherwise placid
green quietude of the Oua~hita National Forest.
In Hodgens itself, `and in nearby Heavener, another sound is mounting-a
PAGENO="0024"
1456
cacaphony of complaint by perplexed and angry citizens over the announced clos-
ing of the Job Corps center.
The Hodgens center is one of those ticketed for extinction by the Nixon admin-
istration. Though there had been persistent rumors almost since the center opened
four years ago, the announcement earlier this month that it was closing took the
community by surprise.
They immediately beseiged their senators, Fred Harris and Henry Beilmon and
their congressman, House Majority Leader Carl Albert, with protests.
So far, the response has been discouraging.
The residents of LeFiore Coimty who live near the center aren't arguing with
the economics of reducing the number of Job Corps centers. Rather, they're hung
up on the inevitable "why me?" aspect of the closing, and they think they have
some valid points in favor of retaining the Hodgens center.
Among the pluses they claim:
There have been no significant discipline problems, much less rioting and
other disruptions that have plagued urban centers.
The center puts over $200,000 a year in work projects into the area.
A measure of racial integration has been achieved quietly and without
incident in the heart of little Dixie.
The economic benefits from the center have pumped new life into the area.
"We're concerned because we know the record this center has had," said former
Heavener mayor Martin Tate. "There hasn't been one police call . . . in over
four years.
"We'd like an opportunity to stack this one up against the others."
Heavener druggist Harry Meeh wants to "see some answers. Is this just more
experimentation, or do they know something?"
Meeh thinks the Job Corpsmen benefit by moving from urban areas into the
rural Hodgens center. "The boy who moves from one urban area to another
doesn't have much change in his environment," Meeh allowed. "That's supposed to
be one of the big problems-environment."
"They haven't even made an inspection of this center," declared Mrs. Maxine
Looper, wife of a Heavener doctor. "I'd like to know what's wrong with it. They
should at least come down and look it over before they decide to close it."
The physical accomplishments of the center are impressive. Since it opened
April 20, 1965, Corpsmen have built roads and campsites-complete with water
and sewer facilities-throughout the Ouachita National Forest. They've con-
structed two information centers oii scenic Talamina Drive, 92 wildlife guards,
78 miles of range fence, 82 cattle guards and 225 picnic grills.
But it is the intangibles, the items that don't show up in statistical reports,
that residents of the area are more concerned about.
"They helped clean up after the flood at Wister," noted one Heaverier resident.
"And after the tornado hit at Greenwood (Ark.) last year."
Corpsmen get involved in community projects like putting up the Christmas
decorations at Heavener and entertaining at civic club functions.
The Corpsmen, most of them Negroes, attend previously all-white churches in
the area on Sundays. And often, they have Sunday dinner in the homes of area
residents.
"We've had from two to 10 Corpsmen in church every Sunday," observed Tate,
who runs a clothing store in Heavener.
The Corpsmen, opined Heavener newspaper publisher Jack Johnson, have "kind
of made something out of themselves.
"Folks around town . . . have been real close to these youngsters. We haven't
had any trouble. They've been gentlemen."
Nearly 1,000 Job Corpsmen have been processed through the Hodgens camp
since it opened four years ago. At an average age of 17, they are unemployable
school dropouts when they arrive.
Chairman PERKINS. Let me compliment my distinguished colleague
for making his position very clear to the committee and `for the quality
of this statement.
I entertain `wholeheartedly your views that when we close down one-
third of the urban `centers and two-thirds of the conservation centers
in this country. and for all intents and nurposes, we are on the road to
destroying the Job Corps. I personally feel `that the administratiop has
never t:hought it through. They are not going to take care of the indi-
vidual that `we are now serving in the Job Corps.
PAGENO="0025"
1457
They have now an existing plan to pick up the man. We are going
to let the Secretary come in here again. He says he has a plan, but if
they are going to pick up 4,500 in 30 centers and perhaps, at the maxi-
mum, 10,000 a year, that is no alternative for the 17~500 slots being
abandoned.
It is a reduction of 60 or 63 percent or more and it. is just nonsense
on the part of the administration when they say they are going to
place all of these youngsters in their so-called mini-centers. There is
no center of this type to place them in, or even to let them stay 5 days
a week.
The cost rate., the dropout rate, and everything else will skyrocket.
We are doing our `best to expose it. When we get `the administration
back `and get his views, specifically, then we hope to `expose this thing
as a far-fetched idea of some'body that has never thought it through.
I am `hopeful `that we will not turn our backs on these youngsters.
We need `all `the training facilities in this country. We have argued
here in the past, why don't we establish some residential centers `and
see how they work ou't without destroying the Job `Corps?
I personally want to commend you for coming in here and making
this point so clear to the `committee. I know down my way that the
figures are `altogether wrong. They are incorrect insofar as the French-
burg Conservation `Corps `Center is concerned.
I made `an unannounced visit there `myself in November `and I was
`told about the cost and I was told about the 80- to 85-percent placement
rate and their criteria has been rigged from top to bottom.
I said it once and I will repeat it again, because they had at least
three lists down there they were passing out and they didn't know
which direction they were going. I am most hopeful that when we
take this issue to the floor, that we can sustain it. They are not saving
any money. They are just fixing to add extra millions and millions of
dollars to the cost. It is going to runup.
If we have not any skill centers in the country that `take care of this
type of enrollee, we will find that they don't serve the type of enrollee
that Job Corps is serving. Think about picking them upS days a week.
Go home on the weekends. We will not be getting as many of these
youngsters out of their environment. We have got to keep our hands
on them 24 hours a day.
So I say again, we don't have any alternative for the Job Corps. It
is false economy. If we destroy this capital investment and let all of
this money go down the drain, we are going to find that this was the
greatest failure that was ever advocated by any administration.
We are fixing to throw away all the experience that we have gained.
And we are making tremendous progress. The Job Corps did have its
faults and it was slow getting off the ground, but remarkable progress
has been made in the last year.
I am hopeful when the administration thinks a little deeper it will
retract and come to the views that you have expressed here this morn-
ing if we are going to serve this disadvantaged youngster in this coun-
try. We are going to have to serve him or we are going to have to just
turn our backs on him and let him loiter on the streets.
Mrs. Green, do you have any questions?
Mrs. GREEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I just wanted to say that I find the statement of the very, very able
majority leader most persuasive, most interesting.
PAGENO="0026"
1458
I understand your concern and I must say that while I think major
changes have to be made in the Job Corps if it is going to accomplish
its stated objective, and if it is going to adequately help the youngsters
that are disadvantaged, yet I have also been under the same impression
as that of the majority leader, and that is that the conservation centers
have really been the most successful.
So I am sure that not only I, but other members of the committee,
will want to look at those facts and figures pretty carefully in terms of
which centers should be changed and which ones should be made the
residential skill centers.
I have no questions.
Mr. ALBERT. May I imagine a comment? I appreciate the statement
of the gentlelady, because if anybody can do things, the gentlelady has
proved that she can on the floor of the House.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Reid?
Mr. REID. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I, too, would like to thank the distinguished majority leader for his
thoughtful and articulate testimony, as always.
I personally happen to be a supporter of the Job Corps and always
have been. I think the administration, however, has the opportunity
to show that its support for increased training facilities and programs
is greater than that of the last administration.
I personally was disappointed at the underfunding of the past ad-
ministration and failure to come out in support of the Kerner Com-
mission report, which, as the distinguished majority leader knows,
called for jobs and training for 2 million Americans in the next 3
years. I personally think we need a national effort of that magnitude.
`With regard to some of the specific points you mentioned as regards
the current administration, it is my understanding from the Secretary
of Labor that every young man or women who is in a Job Corps train-
ing facility will have the opportunity to complete that training and
none will lose the opportunity they presently have.
You indicated some concern on that point, as I understood your
testimony, and I think there is a very clear commitment of the admin-
istration on that special point. Do you have any information that
contravenes?
Mr. ALBERT. I don't know what is going to happen to specific centers.
I didn't intend to convey the impression that these individuals might
summarily be discharged from the centers. But certainly the flow of
individuals, which is necessary, to make these things worth while will
stop.
Mr. REID. If my understanding is correct, it is presently in the pro-
gram without question.
Mr. ALBERT. I am glad to have that clarification. I was not clear on
that point.
`Why has the Secretary of Labor not made known to Members who
have these camps in their districts just what he intends to do? I mean,
I had an air base closed under Eisenhower, but I was warned long in
advance, the people of the community were, the administration didn't
seem to have any fear of its inability to answer the allegations of local
communities affected.
These mini-centers may be important. I don't know. I haven't seen
the justification. I have the impression that they made up their minds
PAGENO="0027"
1459
and then started their justification studies. That is the impression that
~[ have frankly.
Mr. REID. I think the `athninistration's intention on this is clear, but
I think the gentleman's point is valid. I would certainly urge and will
do so today that the Secretary of Labor make sure that this point is
clear and that Members are SO informed, because obviously they have a
very major interest in being consulted prior to action `as well as follow-
ing it.
Mr. ALBERT. I would like to say to my friend I don't think anybody
can accuse me of having been partisan in my approach to administra-
tion legislation, meager though it has been. I am beginning to think
that the only thing worse than its slow start is its bad start.
But everything that the President has asked for, like the Reorganiza-
tion Act to the debt ceiling, I think I should have supported. I would
support them again. I am not basing this on any quarrel with the
President. I don't think the President knows anything about this.
I highly respect the President of the United States. I don't want any
~inference to appear out of my statement that I don't. But I do think
this thing has been badly, badly handled. I think the people in the small
towns whose economy will be affected as well as the lives of people
who might want to go with these camps should be heard before a de-
cision is made and just the fact that it is hard to argue back with the
constituents, and all of these people are constituents of the President,
doesn't mean that the administration shouldn't be prepared to defend
itself and give the Congress and the public an opportunity to have
its say before final action is taken.
Mr. REID. It is my understanding that the administration's position
is to strengthen and improve the programs. The figures that I have, and
they may be debatable, but as I understand them these figures indicate
that of 100 percent nationally who entered Job Corps only 74 percent
arrive at the centers, only 61 percent remain after 30 days, only 45 per-
cent after 90 days, and only 25 percent who are initially accepted
graduate.
Then 20 percent nationally are placed within 90 days and about 17
percent actually placed in jobs.
That has `been part of the concern as to how to improve the retention
pattern and `the job placement rate.
Mr. ALBERT. Is that true of conservation centers?
Mr. REID. That is my understanding that it includes all, that it is a
national table that the Secretary has prepared.
Mr. ALBERT. Of course, those figures are, I suppose, not very impres-
sive. I don't know. The word I have is that most of these boys have done
pretty well.
Mr. REID. I think many have done extremely well.
Mr. ALBERT. Let me `tell you this, my friend. I would rather spend
$5,000 a year on them here than what the Bureau of Prisons tells me
it costs to send a prisoner to a Federal prison and `what the peniten-
tiary `of my `State says it costs to send one to the penitentiary and their
recovery rate is less than 1 percent.
Mr. REID. I agree with the gentleman on that. That is why I was
distressed in the past that we have not done enough nationally in the
job training programs.
Mr. ALBERT. I think we have been picayunish in this thing.
PAGENO="0028"
1460
Mr. REID. We have got to be more effective. So 1 hope the gentleman
will support the provisions of the Kerner Commission report.
Mr. ALBERT. I certainly support one for a $2 million training pro-
gram. I can~t think of anything more important.
Mr. REID. That is the magnitude of the effort I think we have got to
address ourselves to in a bipartisan spirit.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Hawkins?
Mr. HAWKINS. Thank you.
First, I also would like to commend the majority leader for a very,.
very clear-cut statement. I think it made a lot of sense and I think that
it w~s very easy to follow the statements made. I quite agree that. the
so-called commitment of the administration seems to be rather hazy..
I am pleased, too, Mr. Chairman, that you will call before the com-
mittee again the Secretary of Labor because I believe that he has not
presented a very clear-cut position.
I along with others keep getting letters in which the different corps-
men a.re saying that they have no place to go, that they are leaving
the camps. The administration has, as I understand it, promised to do
something about this.
I think that we should bring them back and find out what they pro-
pose to do with these corpsmen who are already leaving the centers.
The Secretary of La.bor was very unclear, it seems to me, a.nd the state-
ment is rather confusing actually in reference to one which is one of
the mini-centers to be established, which was close to Los Angeles.
The only thing that he indicated was that there is a. cente.r at. Sa.ugiis
which is one of the mini-centers. I am confident that this cent.er is not
going to be the alternative program. It is a very experimental prograiu.
If this is the type of mini-center that the Secretary is talking about,
then I think that it is a question of deception and I think that we
should have him come back and we should have him answer the many
letters that are coming to us as to what is going to happen to this
program.
I just received one last week from one of the centers. This happened
to be Camp Parks in which the young people are complaining that they
have been "mini-treated" all of their lives and they are sick of being
"mini-treated." I think they are being shortchanged and they don't
want these experimental centers.
It is obvious that it is only a program to save money and no real
consideration has been given to the interest of those for whom these
centers were originally organized.
I hope tha.t these hearings will bring out the facts, and those indi-
viduals who stand on the floor of the House and make statements, I
think, should make their statements in these hearings, and I think we
should hear from the public as well.
What happens when we hea.r from the public and the public says one
thing and then when we go to the floor, the Congressmen begin saying
another thing, and we end up shortchanging these people.
Last week I think we shortchanged the people in the slum ghettos
in the educa.tion field. I am afraid we are going to do the same thing in
this field. I hope that we will recognize as we go through these hearings
that we are the ones who are creating disorders in the slum ghettos
through shortchanging these young people and others who are dis-
advantaged.
PAGENO="0029"
1461
I would hope that these hearings will bring out the facts and that
we will not twist them once we get to the floor of the House.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Seherle ?
Mr. SCHERLE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I heartily welcome our distinguished majority leader to our com-
mittee here this morning and greatly appreciate the very fine state-
ment he has made.
Mr. Chairman, I have no questions at this time.
Mr. ALBERT. Thank you.
Chairman PERKINS. Mrs. Mink?
Mrs. MINK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I have no questions either, but I also want to join with the members
of this committee in commending you for your very fine statement.
I join with you in absolutely everything you have said, lamenting the
tragic consequences which I believe will follow as a result of the shut-
down of 59 of these centers.
I am totally convinced that the action was arbitrary, not based upon
facts, as the gentleman ha.s so well indicated with respect to his two
centers. I am hopeful that the Congress will act in time to save not just
the centers, but the lives of these young people involved.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Landgrebe?
Mr. LANDGREBE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Albert, you are one of the people on the other side of the aisle
that I am particularly fond of.
Mr. ALBERT. Thank you.
Mr. LANDGREBE. And I certainly am not going to try to plead the
case for Mr. Shultz. It has been my experience `and I am not sure I can
even get around to a question, but I am going to make a couple of
observations, if you don't mind.
It was my privilege to also visit the Job Corps center in Pagosa
Springs, `Cob., long before I had any intention of being a Member of
Congress.
The other day, day before yesterday, I had the privilege of visiting
a work center, I believe it is the Washington Work Corps or some-
thing out here in the city. I saw 600 men and women learning skills
that are needed right here where the people are, where the action is.
These people are taught how to service `automobiles in a gas station
and young ladies are taught how to use the telephone `and how to type.
I am going to try to at least `support Mr. Shultz in my observation
that people who are close to the `cities are learning to do things that
are needed badly to be done in the cities, where the people are, that
certainly there is nothing wrong with this approach and while con-
servation is great, to take a few of these boys from the cities, take them
out in distant' areas and teach them to operate heavy machinery for a
few weeks or few months, there certainly seems to be a difference here
in approach.
I would like to sort of undo some `of the charges made here that
obviously the `Republicans have no concern for the young people. .1
thinkwe are concerned about- .`
Mr. ALBERT. If the gentleman will yield, I never said that.
Mr. LANDOREBE. We want to try to teach them things that they can
do that they can put to use and Mr. Shultz is concerined about the drop-
out rate of these young men and ladies who are taken into communities
PAGENO="0030"
1462
where they are not happy. He has proven the dropout rates and we
would like to provide training that is meaningful in environments or
in areas that will not result in dropouts due to homesickness and things
of this kind.
I know; I operate a~ couple of small businesses in Indiana and I think
Mr. Shultz is talking about preparing people to do things that there is
a crying need for. I have need for young men and women who are
equipped to do things such as mechanical work, office work, and things
of this kind.
Don't you think that there is any validity at all in Mr. Shultz's
approach?
Mr. ALBERT. I haven't said anything about that. Perhaps he has some
good ideas. What I am doing is trying to defend the Conservation
Corps camps and the Hodgens camp in my district. Some of the train-
ing standards provided for automotive servicing and automotive
mechanics, construction carpentry, cooks, cement masons, and there
are welders and heavy equipment operators for those that are capable
of doing that kind of work.
All of those, as I understand it, are occupations tha.t are crying for
competent or even mediocre people.
Mr. LANDGREBE. How can we teach them? We can't get them to stay
if only 24 percent will see it through a.nd eventually we end up with
17 percent qualified to do a job.
Mr. ALBERT. I don't believe they apply to the camps in my district.
I don't see anything wrong with teaching boys who have lived all of
their lives in ghettos something about the great American outdoors.
I think the trend, to throw them into the middle of the cities, should
be reversed personally.
I think we would be better off if we get these boys in the habit of
learning that there is something in America beside the 20 largest
cities. I think it is very important that they learn something about
their whole country.
I don't know. How do we know whether the dropout rate will be
any higher if we have a program here on the edge of Washington, or
in central Washington, than it will be if we have one in the mountains
of West Virginia? How do we know that?
Have we gotten any assurance that these boys, given this back-
ground, given their desires, will respond any more than they will in
the beautiful natural scenery they get in the Rocky Mountains or some-
where or in my district?
Mr. LAND~REBE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman P~xrxs. Mr. Clay?
Mr. CLAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I have no questions. But I would like to address myself to the argu-
ment that has been proposed, that says it is more valuable to keep
these boys and girls in the neighborhood close to home and train them
in service stations and other types of jobs.
I think that anyone who knows anything about the ghettos in this
country knows that part of the problem and perhaps a major part of
the problem is the environment of that neighborhood. It is almost im-
possible to inspire ghetto youth under the circumstances that they
live in. It is almost impossible to inspire them to greater aspiration.
PAGENO="0031"
1463
If we are going to be successful in retraining and resetting values
for people in the ghetto, we must take them out of that atmosphere. I
say this knowingly, because I am a product of that atmosphere. It is
extremely hard to instill in disillusioned ghetto youth of this country
the need to take advantage of the system.
I think it is a fact that people who inhabit together will know that
you can live off of this system without working, that the system itself
encourages people not to want to work.
I know in my community, in the ghettos of St. Louis, that the young-
sters who are coming up admire the hustlers. They admire the fellows
who make it off of this system without working, the so-called pimps,
the gamblers-and these are their idols.
These are the people that they look to. If you are going to ever in-
spire them to some greater height than this, then you are going to have
to remove them from this type of atmosphere.
I think that the type of concept that we have of the Job Corps, resi-
dential Job Corps, is not perfect, but it is certainly far greater and
far more helpful to the youth of this country than the type that has
been proposed by the Secretary of Labor.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Hansen?
Mr. HANSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would also like to join with my colleagues in saying what a gTeat
privilege it is to welcome to the committee our distinguished majority
leader.
I think in your statement you have demonstrated your sincerity
and your compassion and your deep personal interest in the problems
that we are trying to resolve with programs such as the Job Corps.
I want you to know that I share that interest and that in searching
for the answer to this problem, searching for the ways that we can
overcome some of the basic educational deficiencies and develop the
kinds of skills that will enable young people to become productively
employed and achieve the dignity and the independence that comes
with that employment, I pledge my total efforts.
I am also very much personally interested, as our distinguished
majority leader is, in the conservation centers, as I come from a part
of the country where we have seen success in past years in this kind
of effort.
Of course, the resources we have are not unlimited. It is necessary
to continue to experiment and to explore with the kind of ideas that
will spread these resources to produce the maximum `benefits for the
country.
I do think that your statement is very thoughtful and is very help-
ful, as all of us search cooperatively for the answers.
Mr. ALBERT. Thank you.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Steiger?
Mr. STErnER. I want to, of course, join in welcoming the distin-
guished majority leader whose service as a member of this committee
last year was invaluable.
I must say that I am not as pleased by his statement as my friend
from Idaho is. As a matter of fact, I am somewhat disturbed by the
majority leader's tone and tenor in his statement.
PAGENO="0032"
1464
I wonder if I may ask the distinguished gentleman from Oklahoma
whether or not he made this same statement last year when under the
Johnson administration, 16 Job Corps centers were closed?
Mr. ALBERT. I come here because I have personal knowledge of two
Job Corps camps that are goii~g to be closed. I think I owe it to the
committee to give what information I have about them.
Mr. S~rmGER. That I appreciate, Mr. Albert. But what you have done
is to go beyond that. You have not just given to us information on the
good works that you point to.
Mr. ALBERT. I don't agree with the President on closing the camps.
I didn't agree with the Congress on the $6 million cutback as a price
for the tax bill. I went along, because I thought I had no alternative.
That was my position. I was for the lower figure on the spending
retrenchment, but I got defeated.
Mr. STEIGER. Am I to take that response, Mr. Albert, as saying that
when it was done under the Johnson administration, you went along
with it, but when it is done under the Nixon administration, you are
going to protest it?
Mr. ALBERT. I think the gentleman is saying something that has no
applicability to what I am saying. I say that I was not for every en-
trenchment that the Johnson administration made. I did go along
with the $6 billion spending limitation because I had no alternative to
get the tax bill.
Mr. STEIGER. But as a practical matter, that decision to close those
Job Corps centers was not based on the $6 billion spending retrench-
ment imposed by the Congress. That was a decision made by the OEO
and the Johnson administration.
You were a member of this committee. Did you protest? Did you
come here and call it arbitrary and capricious? You didn't.
Mr. ALBERT. I don't think the situation is entirely the same. I think
we had the facts before us then. I have no facts yet from anybody on
the closing of these camps from my district. Why pick out these two?
Mr. HAWKINS. Would the gentleman yield?
Mr. STEIGER. I will in just a moment be happy to yield to the gentle-
man from California.
I want to again just simply say that in all of these things you have-
Mr. ALBERT. I will say this: We are going to make comparisons be-
tween two administrations which I have not sought to do. I think the
present administration is going to have to go a long way and show a
different attitude if it does anything on the overall like as much for the
poor as the Johnson administration did.
I think we are going to find that out before this was over. I didn't
want to get into that subject. The Johnson administration didn't
always please me.
But I have here information about two centers in my district and
the Johnson administration didn't take a meat-ax approach to it that
really changed the nature of a program. That is the thing that I am
protesting without the Congress being involved.
I am for this end of Pennsylvania Avenue. I don't think policy
should be written down in the Labor Department. As I understand
it, it doesn't even have authority over this program. Is that true?
Does the Labor Department have this jurisdiction?
Mr. STEIGER. Delegation agreements are permitted under the law.
PAGENO="0033"
1465
Mr. ALBERT. Has it been transferred?
Mr. STErnER. At this point the delegation agreement has not been
signed.
Mr. ALBERT. Then why is the Labor Department doing this?
Mr. S~uEIGER. Because the Labor Department has the authority to
do it.
Mr. ALBERT. Does it have the authority?
Mr. S1'~eIGEit. I think it certainly does in terms of working out an
agreement as to what kind of a program is to be operated.
Mr. ALBERT. As I understand it, it is operating before it has the
authority and operating before it has the facts.
Mr. STErnER. On the contrary, the facts that were developed, Mr.
Albert, are those which are developed not by the Labor Department,
but by OEO, the criteria that were used were almost identical to the
criteria used by the administration. You were a member of this com-
mittee. Youhad every opportunity at that point to protest as a member
the decision to close those Job Corps centers to shift funds around
within OEO and you `didn't.
Mr. ALBERT. This is not only different in degree, it is different in
kind. Here is a change in philosophy. I disagree with it. I think it is
arbitrary, and I don't think the other was.
Mr. STEIGER. You are saying that it was an arbitrary decision; is
that correct?
Mr. ALBERT. Yes.
Mr. STEIGER. On what basis, on the basis that we find that the con-
servation centers did not have the training-
Mr. ALBERT. I think it is a major and fundamental change in the
whole scope of the Job Corps.
Mr. STEIGER. And an improvement, that is correct. It is a funda-
mental change.
Mr. ALBERT. The other wasn't. The other was just simply an arrange-
ment of details. I think that is entirely different.. I think that is the
approach I have taken here. I have tried to make three things clear.
First, to think this change which is a change in policy, as I interpret
it, should not have been made without consulting Congress, without
Congress knowing about it, and without individual Congressmen
whose districts were affected knowing about it.
Second, I think the change is deemphasizing the importance of rural
poverty and I have much objection to that because I don't think that
the rural poor are any less poor than the urban poor, and I have sup-
ported every program for urban development, I think, that has been
before the Congress since I have been here.
But I do think that this is something that is very fundamental. And
I think it is very arbitrary.
Mr. STEIGER. You have spoken in here of the Labor Department.
Does the Labor Department intend to ignore the law in the process
of this massive closedown?
I think quite clearly the Labor Department does not intend to ignore
the law. The law is followed, the law that the Congress passed has
been followed. The percentage required for conservation centers `and
for women's centers will be followed. You have suggested that this is a
change in the emphasis of Job Corp's without the direction of Congress.
I respectfully disagree. ...
27-754-69-pt. 3-3
PAGENO="0034"
1466
Mr. ALBERT. I think the funding made on the basis of the Conserva-
tion Corps and other camps in existence is congressional policy and
that the Labor Department shouldn't change it without consulting
Congress.
Mr. STEIGER. They are not. The law only says that 40 percent of the
enrollment shall be in conservation centers. That hasn't been changed.
This shift within the Job Corps is not running counter to the law that
the Congress passed.
Mr. ALBERT. It is running counter to the justifications which were
made for the money, which is appropriated for this purpose.
Mr. S~IGER. It is not running counter to it at all.
Mr. ALBERT. On what basis do you make your appropriations? You
don't make them on the `basis of some general law. You make them on
the basis of itemized objects.
Mr. STEIGER. That is correct. What is the purpose of Job Corps, to
educate and to train young people?
Mr. ALBERT. Right.
Mr. STEIGER. The law does not specify that you have to have x num-
bers of centers in any one `category.
Mr. ALBERT. No, but the appropriation was made on the basis that
that would `be done. Because the `Congress didn't act through this
committee doesn't mean that the Congress didn't act. The Congress
acted when it appropriated the funds and it acted on the basis of justi-
fications given in detail on specific items..
Mr. STEIGER. Th'at is correct. But one of the justifications used, it
seems to me, ought to be whether or not in fact the conservation centers
are really doing a job of providing a skill to a young person. The
answer is clearly no, they have not.
Mr. ALBERT. Well, the gentleman may have that information. I `have
information `from many sources, including the communities in which
these Job `Corps camps are located in my district. I have information
from people who have kept up with them when they have left the Job
Corps.
My understanding is from the information I have is that `they have
done well.
Mr. STEIGER. One can, I think, have a reasonable disagreement on
that question. I happen to think they have not done well. I think the
General Accounting Office and the other studies that have been done,
indicate that there are serious questions about the training available
in the conservation centers.
It is for that reason that I have asked the questions I have of the.
distinguished gentleman from Oklahoma., I recognize full well, and I
do understand fully the problem that he particularly had in being on a
Job Corps center at the time the closing was announced.
Mr. ALBERT. That wasn't quite accurate. I was on one of the roads
on whi'~h some of t:he corpsmen were working.
Mr. STErnER. I think we all share a concern over that event hap-
pemng.
Mr. ALBERT. The Secretary of Labor may be the best politician and
the best student of Government in the world, but he is the first person
that I have ever known who without crystal-clear authori'ty took an
~action that affected congressional districts without notifying the Mem-
bers `of Congress affected.
PAGENO="0035"
1467
President Eisenhower's Cabinet never did do that. Does the gentle-
man want something to happen in his district and read about it in the
newspaper?
Mr. STEIGER. I don't think any of us would like that.
Mr. ALBERT. How many members had advance notice of this?
Mr. STEIGER. As the gentleman is aware, that is a problem which
developed not because of the Secretary, but because of a leak that took
place within the Department of Labor which went to a newspaper,
which then got the word out prior to the time that the announcement
was to be made.
Mr. ALBERT. Why didn't they notify the Congressmen in the pre-
l'iminary stages? I don't know.
Mr. STEIGER. I am not here and will not pretend to speak for the
Secretary of Labor. I think he feels as badly about that particular
situation as anyone does.
Mr. ALBERT. Why hasn't he notified members since then? He hasn't
notified me.
Mr. STEIGER. Notified you of what?
Mr. ALBERT. I haven't had any notice or I haven't seen it. If it has
come to my office, the secretary hasn't put it on my desk that these two
Job Corps camps in my district are going to be closed. He hasn't told
me whether the newspaper article was rumor or hearsay, valid, had his
support, or was given correctly by some of his staff. He hasn't told
me that.
Mr. `STEIGER. I `am sure that the Secretary will, in fact, if he has no't
done so, do so `to emphasize that his decision is one in which th'ose two
centers in your district will be closed. That decision, may I again
repeat, is one in which `the precedent exists from the Johnson ad-
ministration.
I frankly do disagree very much with your analysis that the author-
ity does not exist for him to do it. I think it does.
Mr. ALBERT. I didn't say that it didn't exist. I asked, as I recall, the
way I stated it, I put it in a question form as to whether it actually
did exist or not. I `don't think I went as far `as the gentleman says I
went.
The reason I am here is because I really get interested when some-
thing happens in my district and two rights don't make a wrong. If
Johnson was wrong last year, I am not defending him now.
Let me advise my friend, and I like him very much', I don't care
how l'ong you stay `here, if you forget the people y'ou represent, you
won't stay `here very much longer.
Mr.. STEIGER. There is no question `about it. I clearly would never
disagree with the gentleman from Oklahoma on that question. I ap-
preciate his coming. it `is good to have him back again.
Mr ALBERT Thank you
Chairman PERKINS. Let me say to Mr. Albert that in the 1964 act,
there was delegation authority. But never would any member con-
template any proposed delegation `being made, even I think your state-
ment is crystal clear that they are presupposed here.
I certainly received no notice of the conservation center that was
being closed down in the district I represent. I agree with your state-
ment on rural America. There has been a real facelifting in the Daniel
Boone National Forest and it has `been the first facelifting since the old
PAGENO="0036"
1468
Civilian Conservation Corps days. From the standpoint of conserva-
tion alone, the Job Corps center would pay for itself.
I am just wondering what is going to take place in our national
forests and our national parks. If there was ever false economy, it has
certainly been evident here.
The placement record in the Conservation Corps centers is unex-
celled. In the center in my district, the heavy equipment operators, all
of them, are being placed. It just does not make good sense to destroy
operations of this type.
They can talk about available facilities all they want to talk about
them. In Ashland in my district last Friday we dedicated a vocational
building, an outstanding building where they place 99 percent of their
employees. But whom do they place?
Let's look at it a moment: 67 graduates from the Paul Blazer High
School made application for welding this next year. They ôould only
take five.
There were about 70 out of this high school, all of them seniors not
going to college, wanting a machine shop assignment.
Only a half-dozen slots were available for the machine shop after
they serve the other high schools in the area.
We have a lot of these technical skill centers that can train these
types of youngsters, but we do not have the facilities to take care of
even the youngsters with a high school education. Now, here we are
closing down the only facilities that we have to do something for this
hard-core youngster.
The job orientation and the job training that they receive at these
conservation centers are unexcelled in America. So I say again, that
the administration people were shooting from the hip and certainly
do not realize the consequences of their own acts.
I want to compliment you for your appearance here.
Mr. Hawkins?
Mr. HAwIcixs. I think the gentleman from Wisconsin should be re-
minded of the fact that the Job Corps centers were created during the
Johnson administration. It was part of the Great Society program.
Some were closed obviously because of inefficiency, and so forth. And
to compare this with this administration, which has closed 59 and has
not created a single one, seems to me to miss the point, that it was the
Johnson administration's program.
Certainly some of us did `oppose the closing of some of the centers.
Some perhaps should have been closed. I think that it is true that per-
liaps some of these should be closed. But to somehow blame the Johnson
administration for having closed a few of the centers, I think, misses
the great point that these centers are being closed now arbitrarily and
without a.ny alternative program.
I would also remind the gentleman that this program was authorized
in 1964, the first centers were opened in 1965, and it was largely through
Democratic votes that we were a~ble to sustain this program.
The Federal programs that have been injured as a result of the
cutbacks were cutbacks which were led `by Republicans and cutbacks
which were demanded by Republicans to go along with some of the
Johnson tax programs. So that when we talk about Federal cuts around
here, I think we should remeriTher that the great so-called economy
drive is being led by the Republicans and certainly not by the
Democrats.
PAGENO="0037"
1469'
And `if the `gentleman from Wisconsin would like to expand these
programs and strengthen them and' support the `appropriation to get
both the minicenters as well as the Job Corps centers to c'ontinue `and
to expand, we would certainly welcOme his support. But I dou'bt seri-
ously if we are going to get that support' when it getsdown to a matter
of dollars and cents.
Chairman PERKINS. Mrs. Green?'
Mrs. Mink? Mr. Clay?
Let me say to my good friend from Wisconsin that I ~at here and
know how this cut came about. There were problems in getting the
.Job Corps off the ground. But continuously, our good friends on the
minority complained' `about the high cost and said something had to be
d'one. You were trying to raise every little flimsy `issue in the world
about the ineffectiveness of the Job Corps. Finally, we got the Job
Corps people up here and went over the centers in the country and tried
to evaluate them.
You `almost had-you `did have-the votes' to close those that had
high costs' and perhaps `some of them should have `been closed. But
that is the way it came about. It was the urging from the minority that
brought about the closing of these eight or 10 centers under the John-
son administration.
Mr. STEIGER. Sixteen.
Chairman PERKINS. President Johnson had no recourse. I think the
question is propounded and you always propound that question to
eevry individual that comes in here that testifies in behalf of the Job
Corps.
But I think that the reason-I will say 99 percent of the reason-
was because of the attitude of the people on your side of the aisle. That
is what brought it about. The record will show it.
Mr. S~rEIGEu. May I say to the chairman I appreciate both his com-
ments and those of the gentleman from California. I think both missed
the basic point of how we mount a program to help the greatest number
of people in the most effective manner, which will effectively train
them for a job in 1969.
This is my complaint with what is happening today. It is a defense
of the status quo. It is, if I may say so, what John Gardiner said in
his testimony to the Senate. He said he was as unhappy with those
who were for abolishing OEO as he was for those who wanted to keep
it under glass, and the kind of attitude expressed here is that to keep
it under glass.
Let's be frank about it. The gentleman from California put his
finger on it. It is a debate now on whether or not we are going to pre-
serve for all time the Great Society.
I am one of those who is willing, at least as best I can, to question
whether or not we are getting the most for our dollar, and, if we are
not, what changes we can make. It seems to me that what the Depart-
ment of Labor `has undertaken to do is to say we recognize the deficien-
cies in the present operation.
We recognize the lack of training, essentially in the conservation
centers. And there are alternatives which exist which can serve more
of the target population. Let's not kid ourselves. The 34,000 young
men and women who can be served today in the Job Corps is a drop in
the bucket in contrast to the number of young people who need some
kind of training.
PAGENO="0038"
1470
The question is, Do they all need residential training? The answer
is "No." The question is, Can you give them alternatives? The answer
is "Yes."
That is what I think this administration is committed to doing.
Chairman PERKINS. Will the gentleman yield?
Mr. STEIGER. Yes.
Chairman PERKINS. Not under any circumstances are we trying to
defend the status quo. But how can you make an assertion like that
when, under your program, you say that you are going to train only
10,000 a year? It is true that we are only training 30,000.
Maybe it is more than a drop in the bucket. But why should we go
to some other program when we are not going to train one-half of that
35,000 hard-core youths. That is the pointhere. You have never offered
any alternative that is going to do the job that Job Corps is now doing.
Mr. STEIGER. If the chairman. will yield, the Department has made
it eminently clear.
Chairman PERKINS. That is where we disagree.
Mr. STEIGER. May I suggest to you that you have forgotten the fact
that there are 362,000 opportunities for training the young people of
today?
Chairman PERKINS. We are talking about the hard-core.
Mr. STEIGER. I am talking about the hard-core.
Chairman PERKINS. We are talking about the hard-core, your CEP
program, your jobs and your mainstream, all of these programs. They
hardly touch the hard-core.
Mr. STEIGER. We ought to let the gentleman from Oklahoma. get on
with his business and you and I can sit down at the witness table and
argue the question. I will repeat to you that I think what you are
doing here is simply defending the status quo at all costs without re-
gard to the consequences.
Chairman PERKINS. We are not under any circumstances defending
the status quo. We are simply saying that cost per enrollee now aver-
ages $6,300.
Mr. STEIGER. May I say to you, first of all, the figure is $8,300. Let's
not kid ourselves on this $6.300 business.
Chairman PERKINS. I don't agree with your figures. That is the
reason we are going to get some conservation center witnesses in here
and show that these figures are wrong. I visited my Job Corps center
at Frenchburg, Ky. No one expected me there. I got the figures on that
center and I got the placement rate.
That is completely out of line. We contend that the average cost
on the men's urban is $6.800. the women's urban is $6,400, the conserva-
tion center is $6,000, which brings the average to about $6,300.
Mr. STEIGER. Let's admit that what we are doing today by not trying
to make reasonable change is limiting the opportunities for the young
people who most need it.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Quie, do you have any questions?
Mr. QUIE. I would like to get into the debate. [Laughter.]
I have no questions.
Mr. hAWKINS. Mr. Chairman, do I understand that you are going
to ask the administration, and I assume through the Secretary of
Labor, to come back to this committee and to explain specifically what
the alternative program is?
PAGENO="0039"
1471
Suppose we let them speak for themselves. Let's bring the Secre-
tary of Labor back.
Chairman PERKINS. I ma4e that very clear when he was here. The
Secretary will be invited back early next week.
Thank you very much, Mr. Majority Leader.
Our next witness is Mr. Gross, Congress of the American Indians.
He is not present.
Mr. Spencer Smith, Secretary of the Citizens Committee on Natural
Resources.
We are delighted to welcome you here again, Mr. Smith. You have
been with us on many occasions in the past since the time we first
wrote the original bill several years ago. I know that you are inter-
ested in conservation and you will be able to shed some light on whether
we are throwing our money away and whether any of these youngsters
that attend these conservation centers are getting the type of training
that they should receive and getting employment.
Go ahead. You may proceed in any manner you wish.
STATEMENT OF SPENCER M. SMITH, JR., SECRETARY, CITIZENS
COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES
Dr. SMITH. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am
Dr. Spencer M. Smith, Jr., secretary of the Citizens Committee on
Natural Resources, a national conservation organization with offices
in Washington, D.C.
The colloquy that preceded my testimony, Mr. Chairman, reminded
me a little bit of the "Music Man," when Mr. HarOld Hill was coming
into town and the background choruses with "But You Have Got to
Know the Territory." From a lot of the comments that I heard, it is
quite clear a lot of people don't know the territory.
Mr. QUIE. You are referring to the chairman's comments?
[Laughter.]
Dr. SMITH. I distinguished this by calling it the colloquy, Mr. Quie.
The problem that I cite is this business of not having enough skills.
It is like criticizing seriously the swimming instructor for not
turning out somebody who cail swim with five or six different strokes,
when really what you are trying to do is to keep the boy from drown-
ing. After you keep him from drowning, then we can get around to
teaching him how to swim.
While the Citizens Committee on Natural Resources, as one can tell
by the name of the organization, is devoted primarily to the conserva-
tion of natural resources in the pitb'lic interest, the board of directors
is comprised not only of outstanding scientists with disciplines appro-
priate to conservation activity, but many who have spent a good part
of their lives in the educational process.
Speaking for myself, most of my adult life has been involved in
education, principally college and university teaching. In addition,
I have been active in a variety of groups that are involved in the prob-
lems of public education and I serve at present as chairman of the
Juvenile Protection Committee of the Virginia Congress of Parents
and Teachers.
It was this dual concern that caused many of us to urge a Youth
Conservation Corps for America in the mid-1950's. It was evident that
PAGENO="0040"
1472
the unemployment rate for young people was increasing and the high
incident of school dropouts resulted in far too great a percentage of
our school-age teenagers neither in school nor employed.
At the same time, still suffering t:he neglect of domestic budgets in
wartime, our natural resources were in desperate need of refurbishing
and renewal. The demands upon these resources increased not only
quantitatively, but were of greater variety.
For example, outdoor recreation had expanded beyond any dimen-
sions previously thought possible. Shortages and needs began to mani-
fest themselves in such a fashion that restrictive and difficult priorities
were established.
it took little genius to suggest that the rehabilitation of boys and
the rehabilitation of resources were important things to do, and that
a Youth Conservation Corps project might achieve these objectives.
In the 86th Congress, S. 812, the Youth Conservation Corps passed the
Senate. The Youth `Conservation Corps, however, became title I in
another measure, the Youth Employment Act. The distingui~hed
chairman of this committee was the first author of that act, and again
the measure passed the Senate and was pending in the House of Repre-
sentatives at the time of the assassination of President Kennedy.
The Conservation Corps then became a part of the. Job Corps and,
frankly, its horning was not without agony and difficulty. There were
several opponents of this whole concept of conservation corps-even
those who generally supported a Youth `Corps training program. The
opponents determined that this did not represent the appropriate
opportunities nor did they feel such a program would provide these
young people with the skills they needed in a modern society.
The people who were making these comments were primarily urban
oriented and were concerned with teaching occupational skills to get a
job in urban America. No one could `quarrel with these objections. it is
an urban society with `the majority of our population living there. It
is a non sequitur. however, to assume that occupational skills represent
the single objective.
In testifying on the Economic Opportunity Amendments of 1967, I
made the `observation that statistical studies which are in great number
at `that time would no doubt increase. I also pointed out that the pro-
tagonists and critics alike would have their own set of statistics, one
proving beyond a shadow of a doubt the worth of the program, the
other striving to show the inadequacies of the program. It would ap-
pear that such prophecy has been borne out in view of the final Harris
study and the Comptroller General's report.
I would contend, however, without great hesitancy that the statis-
tical analyses do not support `the action taken against~ the conservation
centers when given the comparative considerations `among the other
components of the Job Corps. For example, post-Job Corps employ-
ment experience, r~tention rate, program content, all rate well with
the men and women urban centers.
It is not upon this statistical evidence, however, that I wish to en-
gage the committee's attention. It is with considerable dubie~ty that I
would embark upon any evaluation of the variety of statistical treatises
that the committee has had presented to it in recent weeks of testimony.
I am sure the members are better informed regarding the results than
I am.
PAGENO="0041"
1473
My principal interest is to urge that the committee consider matters
that are not easily quantified, or as the Comptroller General's report
itself states, "benefits * * * which are not subject to precise measure-
ment." It is somewhat like evaluating a period of history by citing all
the events that have taken place with perfect imagery and accuracy
and failing to understand what has happened.
One critic mentioned that Macaulay's "History of the French Revo-
lution" was probably definitive of that particular period, but that
unfortunately, one could read this account and understand very little
of the French Revolution. On the other hand, "The Tale of Two Cities"
by Dickens, which was a novel that purported no special historical
expertise, with events switched and turned around for the literary pur-
poses of the author, nevertheless manifested an embodiment of the
spirit of the Revolution.
It occurs to me that we are dealing with much the same problem in
trying to analyze the worth of Job Corps centers. We are not suggest-
ing to this committee that such things as hourly wage rates, terms of
employment, occupational skills, reading levels should not be analyzed
in order to determine the full worth of the program.
A Congress that did not consider these elements would not be carry-
ing out its responsibilities. On the other hand, to consider only these
aspects-and the temptation to do so is great because they yield the
magic of all documenta'tion numbers-can result in a tragic miscalcu-
lation.
Chairman PERKINS. Let me interrupt you to say that as long as I
am in the Congress, I expect to support any legislation that improves
the conditions in the metropolitan areas of this country, and the
ghettos.
I have always felt that we have to treat the rural areas and the
metropolitan areas as one problem instead of trying to separate the
problems. But we have a tendency on the part of so many people in
Government to separate them and I am greatly surprised that the
administration is falling into this pitfall. They are saying that the
conservation centers are just giving a little conservation training and
are therefore worthless. That is not the case at all.
They are developing the youngsters all the way around. The place-
ment rate, as was so admirably put forth here by Lou Harris the other
day, is just as great in the conservation centers as in the urban centers.
Why people in the administration, who advocate doing something for
rural America, they turn their backs on the national parks, the national
forests is more than I can see. We have many park systems that have
had no work done since the WPA days.
This is the greatest place in the world to teach these disadvantaged
youth the skills that he needs to earn a livelihood from now on. They
have access to heavy equipment and all the facilities that they really
have in an urban area.
Just to close two-thirds of the rural centers down at one stroke of the
pen, I think, is just something we have got to expose. It is just too much
for rural America to take.
Dr. SMITH. I appreciate the comments of the chairman very much.
At the conclusion of my prepared statement, I do want to make a
comment in a supplemental way to that very point.
PAGENO="0042"
1474
I have concluded from my own experience in suffering through the
interminable statistical tables, the usual subtleties and nuances of ap-
propriate sampling intertwined with visits and mterviews with the
individual enrollees in the conservation centers, that the only way a
true evaluation could be made would be for the evaluator to see an
enrolling class when it first arrived at the Conservation Corps center,
observing actions and reactions for a week and then to revisit the same
group at the end of 6 weeks.
If the accomplishments at the end of 6 weeks are reflected statisti-
cally only, the absolute impact may indicate a minimal factor. Such
accomplishments begin to be significant. however, when they are com-
pared with the abilities possessed at the time the class first came to the
program.
In the Comptroller General's report, they contend that the Job Corps
centers, conservation centers should have spent more tune concerning
itself with high school equivalency. Anybody that knows anything
about this program just laughed their head off at that.
This is indicative of some accountant sitting by and having no con-
cept of the type of boy that was coming into this conservation center.
We have, I think, engaged the activities and attention of the public
teaching corps, for which I have the highest regard and during my
life have been a part thereof. These individuals told us a lot of things.
First of all, they told us to get our sights down. We were talking
about high school equivalency, which was ridiculous. These boys
couldn't read or write.
They could "letter" some or they could "number" a bit. When you
have a report saying they weren't paying enough attention to high
school equivalency, this is indicative of the fact that they had no con-
cept of what was involved in these entering classes.
I will say something else for statistics. I was a professor of statis-
tics at one time in my life. An average is a measure of a central tend-
ency. It does not necessarily mean that that particular item occurred
most frequently.
All of these camps-the CCC and the urban centers have participants
that enroll and leave the next day. Technically this enrollee is averaged
into the total stay of the total program. As a result of this counting, a
true reflection of the center is not given.
From my own personal experience, I thought I knew what con-
stituted a child deprived of educational, social, and general cultural
opportunities. I had been a lay observer of juvenile court systems in
two different parts of the country spanning a period of better than 20
years. I have seen a variety of cases come before juvenile courts for
disposition. But. Mr. Ohairman, and members of the committee, I have
never in any and all of my experiences seen a collection of young men
so completely without hope, so sure of the inevitability of despair and
failure as made up the enrollees in the Job Corps conservation centers.
Somehow, at this point, the rhetoric of skills and training in which I
and others have indulged in order to launch such a program appeared
miniscule and inconsequential.
To see a young man learn to master eating with a knife and fork. To
see a hostile youth practically in a straitjacket eliciting from camp
officials mutual castigation as to how he was accepted as an enrollee-
only to find a few weeks later that the cause was due to every tooth in
PAGENO="0043"
1475
the young man's head being infected. According to the attending
physicians, such a condition would inflict pain almost impossible to
conceive.
Young men who could not read with any functional ease. Young men
who asked, "What is a church?" and to have another respond, "It has
something to do with The Book.
It is at this point that one must realize that it is not just a question
of teaching sophisticated social amenities to these young men, in addi-
ion to their skills and technical achievements. It is a question of teach-
ing what most of us take for granted, and which most of us gleaned
from the homes in which we were prepared for society.
The variation of that preparation is obvious, but the fact that it was
attempted and achieved, in some measure in practically all cases is
equally obvious. These are the young people whose backgrounds pre-
pared them not at all for any set of circumstances in which they find
themselves.
A young man who cannot read or write, who is hostile to his environ-
ment, to his peers, is going to have limited opportunities irrespective of
the kinds of skills he may require. In searching for a word to describe
this necessary process which these enrollees must be taken through, I
can think of nothing that fits precisely without sounding terribly
pompous and pretentious.
At this risk, however, I would suggest that the conservation centers
of the Corps have had the basic problem of civilizing most of its young
men.
I would confess that I am not shocked at the outcome of the con-
servation centers in the way that most are. I confess to being shocked,
but I am not shocked at any so-called failure of these centers. What
shocks me is their success. At no time did I ever anticipate that the
results would be as effective as they obviously are.
The facts of these results are open to interpretation and open to
criticism as to whether the results warrant the expenditure. The ques-
tion ultimately must be raised, however, when a young person in our
society is so immensely and egregiously deprived of all the elements
of learning to live in that society, let alone contribute in a productive
manner to it, what would be the cost to society of this individual if no
remedial action is taken?
Some of the sharpest criticism is reserved for the fact that the Con-
servation Corps is taking people away from their home areas and
from the environment to which they are accustomed. By the same token,
it is suggested that the skills that they learn do not suit them to go
back to that environment and obtain useful employment.
In the first instance, it is inconceivable to me to benefit the young
people of our country, that if we take him from a third floor flat oppo-
site a grocery store in a particular block in the Bronx that we have to
bring him back to that precise place with the precise skills that will fit
that precise neighborhood. One of the big transformations of camp
enrollees is their interest and attitude to the outdoors.
The first reaction is that they cannot stand it. Most of them are from
the cities, most of them are use to 24 hours of noise of some type or
another and the quiet alone is enough to send some into a mild state
of shock. They cannot wait to leave the various conservation centers,
which are on forest and park lands for the most part, to get in or near
a town "where the action is."
PAGENO="0044"
1476
The enrollee that stays in the center for a period of 2 or 3 weeks
begins to `ask different questions and for different kinds of privileges.
He asks for camping materials for overnight hikes. He asks for fishing
equipment. He wants to know more about the environment in which
lie is. He is anxious to understand what he is doing to and/or for that
environment.
Now, there isn't much question as to why most of the young people
who are hostile and were the most deprived educationally and cultur-
ally were shipped off to the conservation centers. It was obvious that
the hope would be they would be kept out of trouble, or at least would
have a less opportune environment to either cause trouble or have it
reported in the press if it did occur.
The Congress should have been more suspicious when the people
responsible for the Conservation ~Job Corps centers began to urge them
to visit these camps. It has been my experience, Mr. Chairman, that
when bureaus feel that their programs are not overly successful, they
will in good grace submit to a congressional investigation and the
application of congressional oversight, but they seldom solicit con-
gressional a:ttention to their activities. Some may do this in a sense
of bravado, but not for any long peroci of time, for this can be tragic
in the extreme if Congress decides upon a thorough investigation.
From the very early part of the days of the Conservation Corps
centers, the people responsible for their activities have urged any and
`all who are interested in these centers to please visit them. Taking
advantage of these invitations on a number of occasions, I can' see
why they are proud of their accomplishments. Unless one appreciates
fully the state of the enrollee at the time `he presents himself to the
conservation center, he cannot fully appreciate what this program has
accomplished.
I am not going to discuss the $96 million that we now have invested
in the centers, nor am I going to discuss the millions of dollars of im-
provement of natural resources' facilities that have been made by `these
young people in the conservation centers. The committee is fully aware
of these factors.
Such considerations, in and of themselves, should not compel support
of this program. If there is significant achievement, `as I believe has
taken place; if there is a reasonable comparability in regard to other
components of the Job Corps, and I `believe this to be true; then I
think these factors are of importance and should be considered seri-
ously by the Congress.
I do not support the idea' that somehow we could close `down a pro-
gram and start a.no'the.r without a significant loss of time and without
making many of the same mistakes. There is one important ingredient
in the program that is to be suggested as a replacement for the Con-
servation Job Corps centers, and `that is the Neighborhood Conserva-
tion `Corps.
It is our judgment that this will be less effective for the reason that
it is a neighborhood corps. We feel that taking a boy out of `his environ-
ment has `been more conducive `to social and educational progress than
keeping him in it. We feel, additionally, that the opportunity of prep-
aration for citizenship, as well as a productive individual in the eco-
nomic system, can `be handled in the beautiful setting of God's outdoors
better than it can in the heart of a ghetto neighborhood.
PAGENO="0045"
1477
It appears that irrespective of our thoughts and attitudes, the con-
servation centers are going down the drain. The program which was
born in so much agony, went through the long travail of trial and
error and is now at a state of effective operation, in the minds of most
conservationists and in the minds almost unanimously of those who
have been witness to the deed in the camps themselves.
~Te can only say that some giant steps have been wiped out and the
challenge to other programs to match them are fonniclitbie indeed.
Mr. Chairman, I think there is one single factor in trying to convince
or at least establish meaningful dialog with people about these Con-
servation Corps camps and that is the fact that they have no concept
of the state of these enrollees w~hen they present themselves to the
camp for the first time.
I, of course, being an educator took the, attitude that this was a mat-
ter of education. I thought that perhaps `we might be able to teach
them certain occupational skills. Once involved in this program, I am
not shocked by the absentee list. And I might add that if you are going
to close two-thirds of the J'db Corps centers, you might as well do it
right across the boards, because the day centers, women's centers, are
equally bad. I don't think you can get a dimension of problem-solving
unless you have a genuine appreciation of the problem to be solved.
One man taught me as much about some of these problems as any'one
I know. He has been active at the center near Asheville. He has been
active in three or fo'ur other centers. We had to revise materials that
other centers didn't `have.
Don't forget we got the most underprivileged, most deprived child
in the entire program, not just in men's centers, and many a'sk "How
did you `do?" Nobody ta'kes into consideration that we were `dealing
with children or `boys that were functionally illiterates. None take into
consideration that we were dealing with people that had been in
trouble with the law 10 times more than any other enrollee. Nobody
took into consideration that we were dealing with people'that were far
more de'prived economically than any other `child that went into any
other program.
Then we have people say, "Well, why didn't you teach them to earn
$3.80 anhour?" I say in the name of God, and I mean it in all reverence,
what we were trying to do in that program was not teach swimming.
We were trying to save people from drowning.
T'his is precisely the fact that has not been communicated, to the
public at large or the Congress in particular. When I see the Congress
primarily discussing retention rates, income, post-job security, and
skill orientation, none of which I disparage, it is obvious however that.
we are `away down the road from these goals.
Th'e miracle, Mr. Chairman, is not the statistical results that we have
before us in abundance, the miracle is that these programs survived in
terms of the problem that we had to face. I don't think they could have
survived if it hadn't been in the setting of the national forests, or simi-
lar areas.
It couldn't have been done. I don't think that this kind of rehabilita-
tion effort can' be done on a haphazard basis or an in-training basis.
If you want to save money, don't do it here. If it is $100 million you
want, take it out of the petty cash in the Defense Department or the
space program.
PAGENO="0046"
1478
They made a mistake the other day in the Senate. They got a deci-
mal point wrong. It was supposed to be $197 million instead of $1.9
million. They changed that right away.
If we had applied the same standard to the space program that peo-
pie want to apply to the Job Corps centers 10 years ago, it would never
have gotten off the ground. A missile blows up and people say, "You
have to expect these sorts of things." But when we take a boy com-
pletely and totally deprived in his life at that age and put him in the
Job Corps center, we are not allowed to make any mistakes. The results
must be perfect.
This is why some of us have been most upset, not at the criticism, of
course. We had to have criticism. We had to have reevaluation. We
need it to be continued. But we certainly don't want criticism based on
information that is either incorrect or the facts are not fully appre-
ciated.
~Te hope that people who make these decisions, have a full appre-
ciation of all factors. I don't think the Secretary of Labor has any
more concept of what is going on in the Job Corps than the man in the
moon. I don't think he has any idea of what is involved.
You can't put out a public release as did the Secretary of Labor that
you are going to close two-thirds of the centers in the Job Corps and
retain others who have essentially the same hourly wage rates, the same
wage increases and the same retention.
Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
You can't have it both ways. You can't close two-thirds of centers
for one reason and keep the one-third of others for the same reason.
This is nonsense. I don't know who wrote the statement for the Secre-
tary but I suppose the same people who have been trying to close these
things for the last 3 or 4 years or since 1964. People think that lots of
changes take place during the administrations and they do. A lot of
technicians are still around however and their prejudices are still the
same.
We can get the cost per enrollee of the conservation centers to $8,300,
Mr. Chairman. We can do it pretty simply. All we have to do is add the
overhead cost.
If you take the total capital cost and average it for each conservation
center enrollee but you do not treat capital costs in the men and women
urban centers the same way, the results show conservation centers to a
disadvantage.
If you take these on a comparable basis and you take the capital
charges as capital charges on all components, and operating costs as op-
erating costs on all components, it is quite clear that differences are
not as represented.
In fiscal 1968 the Conservation Corps' direct operating costs, this is
without any capital costs prorated, the amount is $6,026. The total fig-
ures are there. The expenditures have been approved. All you have to
do is take a sharp pencil and prorate them in the terms of the number
of boys and if you want to, you can take this on an hourly basis. In
other words, a 12- or 24-hour day.
In judging the men's urban centers, if you exclude the capital costs
and take the direct operating costs only, fiscal year 1968 was $6,190.
The women's centers ~how a direct operating cost, a `little over $7,000.
These are facts and even the Comptroller General's report contains
them.
PAGENO="0047"
1479
Also you can take the budgetary record on each individual camp
and total them. Apparently, nobody does this.
Suppose it costs $10,000 per boy. Is this too much? How much is it
going to cost at the present time?
Mr. Clay was commenting about the type of boy that grows up in
the ghetto. When the chairman says that there is no other program that
is going directly to the heart; of the hard-core juvenile problem, he is
absolutely correct. If there is, I don't know what it is.
There may be that that is involved in Headstart, but name me a
program that takes children in this state of depradation and keeps them
to the degree that they have received since the Job Corps conservation
centers have been operating.
The biggest difficulty, Mr. Chairman, is that we have not been able
to get the public or a sufficient number of Congressmen out there to
see the difference. To me, the only real comparison is to see the boy
when he comes in and see him 6 weeks after. Then make your evalua-
tion. Tell me then whether the money is well spent or not.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Landgrebe?
Mr. LANDGREBE. Mr. Smith, you talked quite rapidly and covered a
lot of ground. You represent the Citizens Committee on Natural Re-
sources. Is this your first consideration or is it the human resources we
are talking about here that is of primary interest to you?
Dr. SMITH. As I indicated in my opening statement, from the per-
sonal standpoint as well as an organizational standpoint, there is no
question about the fact that the first and primary consideration is, of
course, human resources right down the line.
There are several reasons for this: First, because most of the mem-
bers of the Board of Directors of the Citizens Committee represent, I
suppose, 90 percent of them-I would be reluctant to give a figure-
represent educators who have been involved in education, as well as
natural resources.
We have made, I think, some rather significant-I say we, though I
think most of it has been done by the National Wildlife Federation-
educational breakthroughs during this program. For an example, you
have a boy 16 years old, who can't read, or write. You can't take the
same kindergarten techniques, such as "See Jane, see Spot jump."
Some of the biggest breakthroughs in education of this basic reading
and writing took place within the Job Corps conservation centers. I
have attended hearings upon hearings before the Congress and I
haven't even heard this brought up, even discussed.
Mr. LANDGREBE. Do you mean there are boys 16 years of age in
America today who have not learned to read and write? I mean of
normal intelligence, are you trying to tell me that after the billions
of dollars that have been~ spent for education that this is a real fact?
Dr. SMITH. I am telling you that this is a real fact. I don't imagine
that they have gone too far in the last enrolling class in the conserva-
tion centers. They are being taught, I would say the majority of them,
to read and write right now.
They come to us and technically you have to put down on the record
what they have had. I think the equivalency is supposed to be 4.2 level
of reading. All you have to do is sit down and interview these boys and
talk to them and find out that they can't read a newspaper, they can't
read the black headlines. They can't write their name or if they can,
it is illegible.
PAGENO="0048"
1480
Some have been able to write their names for one reason or another
and that is all they can write.
Mr. LANDGREBE. Obviously there can be no doubt but what some
of these boys make some progress at these camps, those who stay, those
who don't get too homesick or for some other reason leave.
But when we compare the few of them to what we hear being the
hundreds of thousands of underprivileged in this country, then doesn't
it seem like we should give serious consideration to Secretary Shultz's
proposal that we try to, if we can't increase the money-and I have
some people in my district who feel that we are going to have to bal-
ance the budget of this Nation some certain time-they are sincere
about this.
*So if we can't get more money, shouldn't we try to get as many of
these boys through some sort of an improvement program as is abso-
lutely possible to do? I think this is Mr. Shultz's approach to this.
Dr. S~rrni. You say there is the difficulty with Mr. Shultz's ap-
proach. He apparently isn~t aware of the fact we have transferred a
lot `of the boys out of the men's centers in the cities to conservation
centers. Why did we do it? For the simple reason they had a learning
problem, for the simple reason that they were completely skill-oriented,
and to the degree to which they could provide skills which wasn't great.
In the Comptroller General's report they make an unsubstantiated
commentary. The statistics do not bear them out. The successful gradu-
ate, the men's skill centers under the Job Corps program is not sig-
nificantly better than it is from the Job Corps conservation center.
I think you must make the analysis of what they had when they
went in. The wages of a conservation center enrollee average about
$1.37 an hour. The `wages of the men's urban center's enrollees averaged
about $1.48 an hour. The wages of the conservation center and place-
mei~t 1 year after termination was $1.80 and the men's urban center,
about $1.90.
So `there is no significant difference statistically between those two.
I think the big difference and the big difficulty is the replacement of the
so-called minicenter. These are three-fold: First, I don't think that
they have checked as to what the overall educational need is and to
wha.t part of the resources of the Job Corps conservation centers have
been placed in that educational need.
Secondly, I don't think that they have a real understanding of what
this has done to the actual teachers or the educational components. It is
`all very well and good to say that you are going to start a mini-center.
Who is going to teach in it?
Mr. LANDGREBE. What is to keep these people now teaching in Con-
servation Corps centers to teach in~ mini-centers?
Dr. `S~xii'n. Because they are not going to `be inspired with any
great confidence. We had an awful time getting a lot of them to come.
We actually interviewed some of them and urged them to go to these
programs. They said, "No, we are afraid about what is going to. hap-
pen. The first time the administration changes we are going to be
thrown out of a job."
We said we didn't think this would happen. It has got strong bi-
partisan support. We urged them on the basis of need. Now, suppose
when 1972 comes around and these people have kids to educate in
colleg~ too, and the Democrats get back in and they close all the mini-
centers. They have got a 4-year tenure.
PAGENO="0049"
1481
`Mr. LANDGREBE. Go back to the conservation center, perhaps?
Dr. S~rITn. Most of them will say it is much too easy to get a job in
Government. It is much too easy to go to work for private industry.
it is much too easy to go back into the school system where they need
teachers. Why should we put up with this?
`This is a most difficult, challenging, educational situation if it is
going off again, on aga.in. This is the thing, Mr. Congressman, that the
Secretary apparently never gave any thought to, a.ny thought at all
that there wouldn't be sufficient professional educators.
Mr. LANDGREBE. I have one more serious question. There was testi-
mony here this morning about the good that has been done about these
Conservation Corpsmen in certain Federal parks. Isn't there an end to
this work? Doesn't there come a time when' they `have sort of done what
can'be done and can this go on year after year after year?
Dr. SMITH. I note the hour. I `could regale* you without repeating
myself from now until 5 o'clock and also have a budget `by that time of
about $25 or $50 billion.
There is the story of the white sparrow that was delayed in arriving
in Florida. The reason wa's that he got mixed up in `a badminton game.
He was pretty well ruffled as a result.
Conservationists feel a little bit `like this sparrow because we seem to
be constantly between a `Congress that wants to save money, which is
always competing with `an administration that wants `to save money,
and because the conservation doesn't show up immediately, we usually
get economized.
We were economized at the close of `the depression because of the war
years. Then we had to worry about the balanced budget and the post-
war inflation. In the 1950's we literally had this happen. T'he Forest
Service was contemplating closing great areas of recreation in our
national forest because they were worried about an epidemic.
They didn't even have control of their sewers at `this point. It was
only then with this kind of crisis became critical that any he'lp was
achieved.
So the kind of work that these people have to do, the backlog is so
great it could go on for 50 years.
Mr. LANDGREBE. That may be true, but we are talking about Job
Corps centers that are placed at various spots in certain counties in
certain States, and there it is, and no one wants it to move. Isn't there
a limit to what this particular Corps can do in the way of really worth-
while work in that community? Don't we come to a point where it is
just not efficient at all to operate from thatbase and at least they ought
to be moved to some other Federal park or something?
Dr. SMITH. I would say there is a limit, but I could almost close my
eyes, take my finger and point on the map to any particular place
within a national park or national forest. As far as an effective working
circle is concerned, of course, we would expand any working circle
anyway, as private industry and the Forest Service and National Park
Service does.
Basically, for a given national forest, whether it be a county or
otherwise, you would have am awful tough time running out of work,
because some of the repetitive nature of most of this work.
Mr. LANDOREBE. If we want to keep some of this in a natural state,
and these bulldozers and things move a lot of dirt-
27-754-69--pt. 3-~----4
PAGENO="0050"
1482
Dr. SMITH. As far as I am concerned, I would say that we have a lot
of people who are interested in keeping it in a natural state, probably
more of them than are interested in development. But the point is,
if I can be directly germane to your question, the services of the camp
itself is to provide some opportunity.
Let me just very briefly indicate one aspect of this. We had a little
boy in a camp who was one of the youngest members that we had. We
could not get him into the classes that taught reading and writing.
He could not read or write. But he was absolutely enchanted with cook-
ing; whether because of his past hunger, I don't know. They let him
help in a kitchen.
As he helped in the kitchen, he showed a real flair and a genuine
interest, probably the first interest in an occupation that he had ever
had in his life. They said, "You could really be a cook. But it is too bad
you never will be, because you can't read."
We got him into a reading class. He wasn't there very long. And
they said, "When this says one cup, you have got to be able to have
some idea of arithmetic, of numbers." So we got him into that class.
If it hadn't been through that kind of avenue, I don't think you
could have achieved a boy wanting to learn. I think that many of the
activities that we are doing are this effective.
If manual labor is a part of why they are being taught such as a
soil conservation program, a. wildlife rehabilitation program, a wild-
life habitat improvement, or a stream improvement-all of this total
aspect of nature-then it assumes additional importance. We have not
even explored the idea as to the market for these kinds of skills.
I certainly don't think you could put 2 million in State conservation
centers, but I would say that we have not even begun to explore how
much would go into private industry that operate in these areas as
well as State and local.
This is another market for services that I am quite sure is going to be
more and more apparent.
Mr. LANDGREBE. Thank you.
Chairman PERKINS. Let me compliment you, Mr. Smith. You have
been with us helping get this program into operation since 1959 or
1960.
We have had a hard row to hoe. I think you have ably expressed your-
self in opposition and I could not add anything. But to see the ad-
ministration come in here and advocate 100-percent urban program
of the minicenters, and closing down the two-thirds of the rural cen-
ters just shows that this thing has not been thought through. But per-
haps someone down there in the Department and someone at the White
House has no knowledge of rural America, absolutely no knowledge of
rural America.
I don't know how we are going to drive this point home, but that is
true. Do you agree with that statement?
Dr. S~rrrH. I agree 1,000 percent. But I would go further and say
they don't have too much understanding of urban America. I think
the concept as explained by Mr. Clay was excellently stated in which
he sa.id that one of the best things we could do for these boys is to take
them out of this kind of urban environment.
I happen to think that the success of theseJob Corps conservation
centers have been dramatic. Of course, they are not dramatic if you
had no idea of what these boys were like when they first went in there.
PAGENO="0051"
1483
Chairman PmtKINs. I just wish the opposition were here to ask you
questions.
Dr. SMITH. I wish they were, too, Mr. Chairman. I would dearly
love to sit here and discuss it.
Chairman PERKINS. You know the history of this thing. And you
know how to evaluate these programs compared with other programs.
You are telling the committee there is no other program to take the
place of the Job Corps. Am I correct.
Dr. SMITH. You are absolutely correct. I am talking about functional
operating programs. I am not talking about something on the drawing
board now.
And I know for a fact, and we have made some pretty strong efforts-
one of the reasons we were required to make these efforts, Mr. Chair-
man, is because a lot of people wanted boys, children that were products
of a juvenile court, for example, to go into a program other than the
Job Corps, because the Job Corps was closed.
Then you find out what ones are functionally operating when you
try to find a place to put this boy. You find out there isn't any.
Chairman PERKINS. That is correct.
I happen to believe that the tampering with the urban centers, the
men and women's centers, is all a mistake. I don't think we can
separate rural America from urban America.
Dr. SMITH. I don't think you ought to forget it either.
Chairman PERKINS. It is all one problem. But after a great campaign
was launched to do something for rural America, we see the tendency
to not even give rural America consideration.
Would you care to comment along that line?
Dr. SMITH. I would like to comment on two counts. The men's Corps
camps that we now have in the cities have serious problems with ab-
senteeism. We don't get the same kind of so-called runaway of the
conservation center but we do get absenteeeism for 2 or 3 days and then
they return.
It is my understanding that these minicenters are to be operational
by fall. We have explored as best we can, tried very hard to find out
what the Secretary's attitudes were about these minicenters and how
they were going to be operating.
The administrative capability that has to go into one of these cen-
ters is absolutely enormous. Just because you may be in the education
business doesn't mean that you are set up to do this kind of job. I
don't know whether they have a specialist in mind or not. I asked this
question: "Could you tell me what recommendations are going to be
made in the minicenters as far as overall education?" They said, "We
are going to have a real skill-oriented shop."
I said:" I know about that. I am talking about reading and writing."
They didn't even know what I was talking about.
They said, "What do you mean reading and writing?" I said, "I am
talking about functionally illiterates. If you are going to close the
Job Corps conservation centers, where are you going to put them?
Are they going into the mincenters?"
They are not being planned for at the present time.
Chairman PERKINS. By the contracts, the training cost is going to
cost more, assuming that they are contracted. Do you agree with me
that the dropout rate and the attendance rate is* going to be much
worse?
PAGENO="0052"
1484
Dr. SMITH. Whether the dropout rate is worse or not will be a ques-
tion of semantics. The question will be, how many hours a day will
these people be involved in a center? If you have a boy there on Mon-
day and lose him Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday and get him back
on Friday, you carry him on the rolls and you say he is still there. He
is not a dropout.
He may not be technically a dropout, but how much good have you
provided him? This is something we have not done in the conservation
centers. When a boy runs away. if he is gone more than 24 hours, he
is considered immediately as a dropout and statistically reported as
that. That is not true with the present centers. Even that, our dropout
record is as good.
Chairman PERKINS. You make that distinction between the conser-
vation and the men's urban centers.
Dr. S~rI1'H. One of the reasons, of course, is the fact that when you
are in the city or nearby, you can absent yourself for short. times and go
back in and out of this environment., you see.
When you are on a national forest in the Job Corps center, it is 25
or 30 miles to town.
Chairman PERKINS. The administration has never made an explana-
tion as to how they intend to give these youngsters the medica.l treat-
ment or counseling in these so-called minicenters. What is your judg-
ment about the cost, taking into consideration all of these aspects?
Dr. SMITH. By the way, this is another factor. Do you realize that
of the boys that we have had in the Job Corps conservation centers, 85
percent of our enrollees have had extensive-I don't mean limited,
I mean extensive health or dental remedial work done? In one case, it
was a rather siza.ble orthopedic job on a boy's foot and ankle.
Another I mentioned in my prepared testimony. a case where you
had to put a boy in the hospital, bring his infection down and have all
of his teeth extracted.
I might add that this boy had had a record, several misdemeanors
and one felony. He straightened out as a result of that kind of therapy.
I know of no outpatient services along with these minicenters that
have been proposed.
There is something else that occurs to me, that if you have a boy
in residence, you have some control over his total activities. You have
control over the food that he receives, the medical treatment that he
receives, the kind of clothing that he wears, and the kind of housing
facilities that. he is afforded. All Of these are important.
When they say that the capital costs of residential camps are higher
than other costs this is true. But this is what is required. I don't see
how you are going to do anything about that unless you just give it up.
Chairman PERKINS. You have made a very good statement, Mr.
Smith, and I want to compliment you.
Do you have any questions? Go ahead.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I have no questions. I would like to very seriously compliment the
witness on his testimony and I am sure the committee will benefit
from it.
Ohairm~n PERKINS. Thank you very much~
Dr. SMITH. Another member of our committee, Dr. Dewey Ander-
son, who is the treasurer of the citizens committee and who is now
PAGENO="0053"
1485
retired, but is a distinguished educator nnd has been very aotive and
interested in this program aiso had planned to testify.
Chairman PERKINS. Without objection, that statement will be in-
serted in the record.
(Statement of Dr. Dewey Anderson follows:)
STATEMENT OF DR. DEWEY ANDERSON, TREASURER OF THE CITIZENS COMMITTEE ON
NATURAL RESOURCES
I am Dr. Dewey Anderson, Treasurer of the Citizens Committee on Natural
Resources. In offering testimony in addition to that given by Dr. Smith, on behalf
of the Citizens Committee, I hope to show further concern over the announced
closure of Job Corps Conservation Centers.
Unacquainted with the background history, the new Secretary labors under the
impression that the legislation setting up the conservation corps as part of the
program of education, job training and rehabilitation of our less-privileged youth
is solely, or at least primarily, one of fitting them for gainful work. Heseems also
to consider that their place is in the ghetto communities from which they come.
The Nixon Administration, of which be is a spokesman, says it will provide job
training in city centers formany more youth than can be done for the contingent
comprising the youth in Conservation Corps Centers. Additionally, this will be
done `at a substantial money saving to the government. These premises are either
false or unproved by experience. Also, such action appears at variance with the
commitment of President Nixon.
It is necessary only to repeat the record, showing the chronology of events to
prove the point:
1. On February 19, 1969 President Nixon assured `the Congress and the public
that all such programs would have at least a year's extension during which they
would be studied by his Administration before any changes of significance would
be made for "their improvement."
2. On April 11th the Secretary of Labor made public his order for `the closing
of 59 Job Corps Centers with the final date for closing them to be the 23rd, two
weeks later. The Congress, the public, the officials in charge of these job centers,
business purveyors and agencies responsible for many ~relationships with them
were given no notice until they received their information about closing the cen-
ters from the newspaper publicity it occasioned.
It is obvious from this sequence of events that the Administration was so fear-
ful of adverse reaction to the move that it was planned in secrecy and hastened to
become an accomplished fact which could not be reconsidered. This is irrespon-
sible and irresponsive, undemocratic and arbitrary public administration. A level
of conduct which has aroused citizens in all walks of life, and an action which,
judged on its merits, without any political partisanship expressed. will become a
major item in the catalogue of this Administration's conduct during its term of
office. No amount of explanation after the fact will erase this image of arbitrary
action.
The Administration, through its spokesman Secretary Shultz, offers no objec-
tive evidence proving the excessive costs, waste, or failure to attain its objectives
of the conservation job corps. On the contrary, the detailed, objective, fully verifi-
able official study of the Louis Harris organization proves beyond any margin of
probable error that the Conservation Job Corps has accomplished astounding re-
suits in training youth for paying jobs and self-sufficiency. This part of the prob-
lem is now in focus, and it is notable that partisan efforts to refute the Harris
findings are so weak as to have no standing in the discussion. Already, the Ad-
ministration and its supporters are sidestepping the study's findings, and moving
their position aside from it to what they term the safer ground of offering to make
job training available to more trainees in their home environment for less money.
It is this approach which we wish to consider here.
THE MULTIPLE PURPOSES OF THE CONSERVATION JOB CORPS
We have participated with `many others from a period beginning with the intro-
duction of the first postwar efforts to revive the CCC's to establish a continuing
government program to meet the health, social, economic, educational, recrea-
tional, job training and adjustment needs of youth to today's world in the natural
setting of our countryside. It would also help do the several-phased job in conser-
vation of natural resources and development on which a manpower of young men
and women so considerably depends.
PAGENO="0054"
1486
The Conservation Job Corps legislated in 1964 was conceived for just such
multiple purposes, all melted together into an amalgam which would be practical
and broadly cultural at the same time. We did not legislate into existence the
Conservation Job Corps strictly and solely to train some youth to become gainful
workers. That was an important, but by no means the only purpose of the legis-
lation. We had learned through the very successful experiences of the CCCs that
it was precisely because young people were taken out of their crowded city
environments and given the opportunity to live in the wide open spaces of our
forests and countryside that they became whole, their outlook on life became
wholesome, they gained strength of body and mind and soundness of purpose
precisely because they had made a new start in a natural surrounding. The
temptations, frustrations, and drop-out conditions of their former city life wore
off, never to return. The very substantial majority of them became useful citi-
zens. It was a surprising revelation to us, when we offered the first post-war
Civilian Conservation Corps bill tO the Congress, how many members of that
body endorsed it enthusiatsically because they had been graduates of the CCC,
put on the road to responsible living by working in the corps.
The multiple character of the training in a conservation corps center, and
the multiple purposes served by its program cannot be obtained from any transfer
of the centers and trainees to an urban locality. There the training will at best
be a glorified vocational training program. We have had such programs for more
than fifty years, and while vocational high schools supply a real need for a seg-
ment of the high school age population, they do not duplicate nor can their
training take the place of the on-the-ground program of the Conservation Job
Corps. So, when the Nixon Administration announced the closing of 59 conserva-
tion centers already erected,. functioning and paid for, and the fumbling experi-
mental start of a city job training program which won't really get going until a
capital investment in plant and equipment of several millions of dollars has been
made, we consider the Conservation Job Corps program has been destroyed and
nothing approximating it has been planned.
During the life of the Conservation Job Corps leaders have been selected and
trained who have become prOficient in counselling and directing the life and work
of the trainees. These men and women, recruited with some difficulty from such
agencies as the Forest Service, mi~st now find other employment. Return to their
former jobs is not always possible, and because of the Nixon Administration
budgetary freeze on number of government employees, their former agencies can-
not reabsorb them. Here is a major loss of trained n~anpower. And the economic
loss, family dislocation which this abrupt closing of the centets has caused will
make it increasingly difficult to recruit leaders in any future effort to once again
establish Conservation Job Corps. For of a certainty, as we have had to do twice
already, at some future time in this or in a succeeding Administration, the Con-
servation Job Corps will be reestablished, for it meets needs which can be met
only this way.
The conservation, development and use of our many natural resources depend
on an increasing number of trained workers. There is no more practical way to
obtain this trained body of workers at the sub-professional level than by training
them on the job in the forests and on the public domain lands of the nation. A
concrete example is presently before us. If we fail to obtain the additional
lumber needed to supply the materials required to build our public housing, lum-
ber for which the Nixon Administration budget is providing additional funds
now under pressure of the woods product industry, it will be primarily because
we do nOt have the trained labor force required to get out the downfall and dis-
eased trees from the national forest. Surely, from this standpoint alone the
abrupt closing of the conservation job corps centers was unwise and shortsighted.
It offers strong evidence that lack of coordination in the Administration is so
pronounced that the "right hand of government didn't know what its left hand
was doing".
Hardly proof of being on top of the situation to convince us that shutting the
centers and opening different kinds of training centers at additional investment
costs in our cities are evidence of competence and efficiency in the Administration.
The main current justification by the Administration for shutting the Conserva-
tion Job Corps centers is economy. Costs per trainee are contended to be exces-
sive, but the real question is whether the Conservation Corps is operated effi-
ciently, economically, and producing the multiple results for which they were
organized? The question is not whether a Conservation Job Corps can be oper-
ated for as few dollar expenditures as a city vocational training school center,
for that is comparing unlike entities. To scrap the multi-purposed conservation
PAGENO="0055"
1487
centers and establish in their place the single purposed vocational centers in our
cities is not sound economy even if it can be done with less money, which has
yet to be proven. If the several objectives of the Conservation Corps are essential
or desirable elements in a youth rehabilitation training program and also makes
gains in the conservation of our natural resources, the costs should be distributed
among its several distinguishable purposes.
It is not possible for a General Accounting Office, ill-equipped by training of its
bookkeeper and budget reviewing personnel which lack substantial field experi-
ence to objectively determine the "costs" and "benefits" of the Conservation Job
Corps. The worth of these centers cannot be expressed in the usual CPA-accepted
traditional "cost-benefit ratio."
Experts in the broad field of social studies have developed a convincing body
of facts proving that ours is a complex society in which a considerable number
of individuals are peculiarly unfitted to adjust to the mould of our fast-moving,
technological, urban living. The extremes among them become not only our drop-
outs and misfits, but our delinquents and criminals. The main body of this broad
segment of our population continue in their inner city communities unadjusted,
dissatisfied, underemployed, and underproductive, a drain on our civic institu-
tions and a handicap for all with whom they associate. In these volatile times
of social, political and mass unrest, it is unwise, to put it mildly, to tolerate the
continuance of this situation.
We have now conducted what amounts to a "pilot study" in lifting some 30,000
of these youth out of their tormenting environment where the aggravation of their
daily life has frustrated them beyond endurance, and put them in natural sur-
roundings where their work and their play and the educational training they
receive combine to make them over into different people, adjusted to life and able
to carry on independently. The facts are in hand. The Conservation Job Corps
program does just this, and no other proven method has done it for this segment
of society as well, as economically, as surely.
Instead of shutting down the camps, such a successful experiment should now
go far beyond the pilot study stage which has proved its value. Instead ofclosing
our eyes and minds and shutting the public purse to the needs of this considerable
body of our people, this is the time to enlarge the effort so as to eliminate the
waste of human beings and bring these youth on into full membership in our
democratic society.
The Nixon Administration flOW indicates the budget which destroys the Con-
servation Job Corps is going to show a surplus of over 4 billion dollars this year.
Surely, then, it is not lack of cash in the public treasury which forces the shutting
of the conservation job centers. For the cash is there, undistributed among the
social needs of the nation after having adequately provided for the national de-
fense and for all other budgeted needs in some degree. Even a properly enlarged
program of more centers established out in the back country would not impinge
heavily on the surplus in hand. For the total cost of the program is an infinitesi-
mal item in the national budget, but it looms large in the social adjustment
column of the nation's bookkeeping. It could be just that very escape valve on
the national enterprise engine which prevents blowing off the lid of social pres-
sure due to the unsatisfied, and unmet needs of underprivileged city youth.
Social engineers look long and hard for the way to solve such intricate and
complex problems as adjusting this broad segment of the city's population to
the kind of living we have been evolving during the past half century. They have
tried about everything, including the much publicized new effort of the Adminis-
tration to meet the poverty and depravity and despair of our inner cities through
so-called new devices such as wider responsibilities assumed by the private busi-
ness sector so recently affirmed in the White House-U.S. Chamber of Commerce
nationwide broadcast of closer affinity in purpose and program. But when the
chips are really all down, and the various programs and pronouncements have all
been made, as they have been on several past occasions in our experiences since
the days of the Great Depression, it comes clear that there is no wand waving way
to erase the presence of this large segment of unadjusted youth from our city
streets, its corners, its hallways and doorways, its dives and dens. There is only
one well proved way we have so far found and tried of doing so with permanent
beneficial results, and that is the CCCs we conducted so successfully during the
depression 30s, then let lapse through our sheer stupidity, failing to recognize the
continuing nature of the problem, then revived again in 1964 with the legislation
creating the Conservation Job Corps.
If we allow the shutting down of these centers to stand, it will only compound
our problems in the cities into a dangerous situation. If we do not take advantage
PAGENO="0056"
1488
of the lessons so well learned in the currently operated pilot study of the con-
servation centers to ex~tend them and their influence in time to head off more and
growing trouble in our cities, we will rue the day.
The matter is now before the Congress. The overwhelming insistence of the
people who elect the Congress that the Conservation Job Corps be continued is
well known to its members by now. The needed action rests with the Congress.
Affirmative action is imperative immediately. It is the only way the Conserva-
tion Job Corps can be saved. The issue is above partisanship. It is a human and
a humane issue, and the lives and futures of thousands of our young people rest
upon your action now.
Chairman PERKINS. Our next witness is Mr. John L. Hall, assistant
executive director of the `Wilderness Society of Washington, D.C. Is
Mr. Hall here?
Dr. S~ri~. I imow both Mr. Hall and Mr. Gutermuth.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Hall is not here?
Dr. ~ Neither one is here now. I think Mr. Hall was here earlier
this morning. I am sure that they will have statements later today.
Chairman PERKINS. Then what about Mr. Gutermuth?
Dr. S~rITH. Both are not here now. But Mr. Louis Clapper is here
in place of Mr. Thomas Kimball of the National Wildlife Federation.
Chairman PERKINS. All right, come on around, Mr. Clapper.
STATEMENT OP LOUIS S. CLAPPER, DIRECTOR OP CONSERVATION,
NATIONAL WILDLIFE FEDERATION
Mr. CLAPPER. Mr. `Chairman, Mr. Kimball had a conflict and he
regrets he could not be here. I am Louis Clapper, director of èonserva-
~ion for the National Wildlife Federation.
Ours is a private organization which seeks to attain conservation
goals through educational means. The federation has affiliates in 49
States. These affiliates, in turn, are made up of local groups and indi-
viduals who, when combined with associate members and other sup-
porters of the National `Wildlife Federation, number an estimated 2.5
million persons.
The National Wildlife Federation is pleased and honored that you
have invited us to appear today to present our view on the role of the
Job Corps in the conservation movement.
Our organization supported and recognized the value of the old
Civilian Conservation Corps. Many present State forests, State parks,
State lakes, and other facilities were the direct result of this depression-
born effort. And many national leaders today, including some Mem-
bers of the Congress, were young men who benefited directly from the
program. A nostalgic note about this era was written by the late Ernest
S. Swift, of our organization. in an article which appeared in the
April-May 1968, issue of National Wildlife magazine-page 16. a copy
of which is attached.
(The article follows:)
[From National wildlife]
STRAIGHT TALK
(By Ernie Swift)
The CCC camps of the `30s-The Civilian Conservation Corps-are now but a
nostalgic memory to many staid businessmen who as boys eagerly enlisted to
invade the forests, plains, farmlafid~ gild niountaing a~ living symbols of one
of our greatest conservation movements.
PAGENO="0057"
1489
The CCC camps were one answer to the worst depression and the worst drouth
that ever befell this nation. When the depression bit in the late `20's, people lost
their businesses, factories and jobs, the banks closed, there were bread lines and
suicides.
In great part the CCC camps were a social experiment and a morale builder
to overcome the nation's fear of fear. In the matter of weeks three million idle
and bewildered boys from Brooklyn to Podunk were put to work shoring up the
nation's natural resources. The job was three edged: to build confidence and
character, to bring financial aid to their distressed families, to start a gigantic
natural resources restoration program.
And so the job was begun. Fuzzy checked kids in blue fatigues, their first
square meal in months under their belts, were hiking out to their assignments
with axes, shovels and picks. They did range rehabilitation work, improved wells
and springs, built corrals and fences, stock trails and roads, filled in eroded
gullies; they worked on federal and state forests and parks, gathered fish spawn,
built hatcheries, and some tried their hand at masonry and carpentry. By the
sweat of their. collective brows these future voters proved among other points that
forest fires could be stopped. Three million boys working and playing, breathing
the pure, sweet air of a Great America, and learning to swagger in the fierce joy
of accomplishment and coming manhood. Thousands of youngsters who com-
mencéd as enlistees grew up as doctors, lawyers, engineers and professional con-
servationists.
The 000 lit a beacOn throughout the nation that is still burning; they were a
milestone in the nation's history both as a social experiment and in the develop-
ment of a national conservation conscience. Their lasting accomplishments pre-
ceded the present Job Corps program.
The recruitment for the Job Corps does not compare in numbers with the old
CCC camps but then the situation is completely different today. Also, their living
conditions are far more plush, they lack the military discipline of the old camps
and the training is more sophisticated with the emphasis on resources being
generally secondary. Having observed several of the Job Corps camps from their
inception it is my hope that they can equal the old CCC camps as character build-
ers where boys sweated, learned, were disciplined, developed a fine sense of esprit
de corps and a new sense of values.
Mr. CLAPPER. Because of the values we `believed would result, we
supported the conservation camp portion of the Job `Corps. After it
was established, the National Wildlife Federation helped Federal au-
thorities develop some of the educational materials being used for
instritction in these camps. Therefore, we know that young people are
being exposed to the conservation concept, many for the first time,
t.hrough these publications and otherwise.
I was very pleased to hear some discussion directed toward the fact
that at least part of the cost of this program should be offset by the
values received in the work of a beneficial nature which is `being accom-
plished. In other words, this is more than just a training program.
Mr. Ohairman, we believe it is often difficult to evaluate the success
of a program which `deals with educational efforts. We were tremen-
dously pleased, therefore, to note that the Harris survey shows that
graduates of `conservation `camps are competing successfully in em-
ployment after receiving their training in these facilities. We also
would suspect that young people attending these camps leave with a
new maturity and understanding of, and appreciation for, their total
environment.
TJrbanologists say some young people of the inner city have had no
personal contact with an outdoor environment of a quality type. The
only `birds they may have seen are pigeons and starlings and sparrows.
The `only mammals with which they are familiar are rats and mice. A
conservation camp well may be the first time when `they have seen a
stream not heavily polluted with offal and chemical wastes, or a night
sky in which stars shine brightly, rather than being obscured by city
smog. These `are benefits that do not show up on some economic test.
PAGENO="0058"
1490
To make sure that the fundamental philosophy of the Job Corps
conservation camp was correct, we asked the editors of "National Wild-
life" to make a survey of several centers and report their findings. The
story, "The Jc~b Corps in Conservation," in the April-May 1968, issue
supported our original thinking. A copy of that issue is included as a
part of this statement.
(The article follows:)
[From National Wildlife]
THE Jon CORPS IN CONSERVATION-THIS MODERN CCC Is WORKING To CONSERVE
BOTH Hu~fAN AND NATURAL RESOURCES
(By George H. Harrison with Bill Thomas)
A skinny, round-faced kid, looking younger than his 17 years, was lying on his
bunk reading a letter from home as I approached. He was introduced as Charles
Stewart of Beaumont, Texas.
"What brought you to the Job Corps, Charles?" I asked.
"Well," he said slowly, "Dad's not, well, and can't work steady as a mechanic
any more. I helped him sometimes, but it's pretty hard for my mother and five
sisters. So I decided to join the Job Corps and learn a trade."
Camp Director Larry Hensen added proudly that Charles was doing well, too.
In little over two months, he had passed two levels of reading, writing, and math-
ematics and was corresponding with his family for the first time. He was learning
carpentry, automobile mechanics, and the operation of modern laundry equip-
ment, with some ceramics for fun. During that two months, he had added 20
pounds to his 100-pound, five-six frame, and he looked good.
WAS A SKEPTIC
Like anyone else who reads the newspapers, I had come to the Job Corps Con-
servation Center at Poplar Bluff, Missouri, with some reservations. But National
Wildlife was producing an article by freelance writer Bill Thomas, so I was sent
south to add some first-hand interviews and photographs of the corpsmen. In
addition, Bill's story had been so optimistic that I wanted to see it for myself.
But meeting Charles Stewart and a hundred other boys in the camps at Poplar
Bluff and Mingo, Missouri, changed my mind in a hurry. It was obvious that
the programs at these conservation centers were highly successful.
The Job Corps program is divided into Urban Centers and Conservation
Centers. Poplar Bluff and Mingo are two of the 92 Job Corps Conservation
Centers in 38 states and Puerto Rico. There are about 15,000 corpsmen in these
camps, working to improve themselves while working with our natural resources.
Poplar Bluff is run by the United States Forest Service and is located in the
heart of the Clark National Forest. Mingo, on the other hand, is operated by the
Bureau of Sport Fisheries and Wildlife, and located on the Mingo National Wild-
life Refuge. Other Job Corps Conservation Centers are administered by the Na-
tional Park Service, Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Indian Affairs,
Bureau of Reclamation and seven by state agencies. It didn't take me long to
see that operating Job Corps centers was a whole new challenge for foresters,
~vildlife biologists and park rangers. They had never done anything like this
before.
Director Larry Hensen, a red-headed 31-year-old forester, is terribly proud of
his center. I asked him to tell me, in his own words, what the Job Corps Conser-
vation Centers were all about.
He thought for a moment and `then said, "Job Corps recruits young men be-
tween 16 and 21 from depressed areas and big cities; Young men who have missed
the boat for some reason. The Job Corps program develops good work habits,
teaches the boys to be socially acceptable, hard working, responsible citizens, and
at the same time tries to give them some of the basic training they missed in
school, like reading, writing and math. We found 99 percent of our `boys are
high school dropouts and 20 percent can't read.
"Their vocational training at this camp includes instruction in carpentry, auto-
mobile mechanics, driving, operation of heavy equipment, forestry techniques, fire
control,, baking. laundry operation, printing with offset presses and warehouse
operatin. Other canips teach farm techniques, insect and weed control, wildlife
habitat improvement, instruction in masonry and survuying.
PAGENO="0059"
1491
"Actually, the conservation work here is secondary. The projects give the corps-
men a good work experience in an environment totally different from home. Of
course, a considerable amount of work gets done too, but in keeping with the
philosophy of the Job Corps, the boys themselves are the ~mportant resource
are trying hardest to save."
CONSERVING HUMAN RESOURCES
Mingo Director Wayne Adams described the Job Corps as "an effort to conserve
human resources while working with natural resources." He went on to say that
the long range effect of the conservation centers may be in the development of
good conservation attitudes, not the amount of work accomplished.
By their own definitions, both directors bring out the difference between Job
Corps and the old Civilian Oonservation Corps (CCC) of the 1930's. The COO
was created to provide jobs for people who were out of work; the Job Corps was
created to provide jobs for people who don' know how to work. In the Job Corps
the emphasis is on the man; in the CCC it was on the work.
There are 224 boys at Poplar Bluff and 112 at Mingo. They come from varied
backgrounds with one common problem . . . they were out of step with society.
Nearly every one lacked enough education to get a good job, and came from a
large family in financial trouble. Some bad lost their fathers; some had tried to
get into the armed forces but couldn't pass the tests; some were in trouble with
their parents, the law, or school officials. Others were loafing. But almost all of
them were discouraged with life . . . and with themselves.
So they volunteered for Job Corps and found themselves in a new world filled
with others fighting the same problems. For the first time in their lives they
were getting three good meals a day, clean clothes, clean beds, free medical,
dental, and optical care if they needed it. For most, it was their first trip to
the dentist.
WANT TO LEARN
Without distractions such as girls, cars, revolt and poverty, they found them-
selves anxious to learn and learn they do. In addition to the three "R's", voca-
tional and conservation subjects, they learn how to communicate better, take
orders, dress neatly and work with others. They read good books, see selected
movies that carry moral lessons or patriotic themes, and participate in competitive
sports.
The text books they use in their reading classes were specially prepared for
Job Corps use, the result of a conservation education seminar arranged by the
National Wildlife Federation. Instead of the "see John run" approach, these text
books are laced with the conservation and natural resource message.
In the field, they learn about forestry and conservation practices; about wild
things and the scheme of life. They learn to recognize the call of a wood duck,
the aroma of pine needles, the whistle of a woodchuck. They band geese, saw
timber and dam streams. But most of all, they learn to understand nature.
The transformation from the ghetto to the great outdoors is sudden and dra-
matic. "They arrive here pretty shaggy", reports Larry Hensen, "but in a couple
of days they get into the program and the change is~ unbelievable."
The corpsmen are free to go when they feel they are ready to leave. `If they wish,
they may remain two years. While the corpsman is there, be is paid $80.00 a
month, $30.00 of which its his to spend, the remainder held for him until be leaves.
FAMILY ATMOSPHERE
The Conse~ration Centers have a small capacity, ranging from 112 to 256 corps-
men. Most staff members and their families live at the Center. It is felt that the
presence of staff families develops a family-like atmosphere, causing fewer
stresses.
But what about the work they are doing for conservation? Does it amount to
anything? Is it worth the cøst?
EARLY ACCOMPLISHMENTS
Corpsmen in Conservation Centers during the first two years of their existence
improved more than 50 acres of public beach, for instance, cleared nearly 2,000
acres of land, landscaped and planted 5,000 trees and shrubs and developed more
than 400 acres of public campgrounds and picnic areas in places like Lewiston,
California, and Cumberiand Gap National Historical Park in Virginia and Ken-
PAGENO="0060"
1492
tucky. Corpsmen helped the Virginia Commission of Game and Inland Fisheries
stock several streams with trout for `the fishing season.
Leon Krideibaugh, coordinator for Job Corps activities in the Hoosier National
Forest of Indiana and the Wayne National Forest of southeastern Ohio, listed
some of the projects completed by the Vesuvius and Branchville Centers in the
past two years.
As an example, they included repairs on dams and `spiilways on five fishing
ponds; installation of four check dams on streams to reduce silting, thus improv-
ing fish habitat; construction of 30 wildlife waterholes, 22 miles of fencing around
wild turkey habitat and marking it with signs; construction and installation of 25
wood duck nesting boxes; installation of 200 catfish shelters; construction of 10
wildlife waterholes; construction of a concrete boat ramp; and a 25-unit camp-
ground.
In addition, his corpsmen have built more than 40 miles of access road to
fishing lakes and maintain some 70 acres of forest openings for wildlife.
In Mt. Hood National Forest in Oregon, corpsmen from the Timber Lake Center
built a fishway around Pegleg Falls on the Callawash River to allow steelliead,
chinook and silver salmon to reach several miles of good spawning beds above
the falls.
These are typical jobs, being repeated every season in all 92 Job Corps Conser-
vation Centers across the nation.
Corpsmen at Cartevile, Illinois, built two vehicle bridges on the famous Crab
Orchard National Wildlife ~Refuge to provide public access, enforcement and man-
agement work.
On the Tamarac National Wildlife Refuge in Minnesota, corpsmen from the
Rochert Center blasted over 100 potholes for waterfowl.
GOOD COMMUNITY RELATIONS
`Surprisingly, and despite some widely publicized exceptions, Conservation Cen-
ters have been remarkably free of friction with nearby communities. The great
majority of Conservation Centers have established Community Relations Councils
made up ofelected and appointed officials, professional and business men. In many
instances, corpsmen have helped the communities in times of disaster, such as
flood, fire and tornado.
But what happens when the corpsmen returns to civilian life?
Some return to school. One is now a full time student at Dartmouth University.
Some go into military service. Some pursue trades they have learned at the cen-
ters such as operating a bulldozer, plumbing, carpentry, and some remain with
work in the outdoors.
At the Branchville, Indiana Center, Director James List said several of his
graduates `have chosen to stay with the Forest Service. "I'm proud to say they've
been some of the best workers."
COSTLY PROGRAM
Unfortunately, the Job Corps program has been a costly one for the American
taxpayer. Thus, the main reason it has sparked such violent criticism. The Office of
Economic Opportunity which has overall responsibility for Job Corps, reports that
it costs about $4,700 per year per boy. Critics of the program point out that the
average family does not pay this much to send a boy or girl to college.
On the other hand, let's say the boy or girl who comes to Job Corps was not to
have such an opportunity, and turned to a life of crime. The cost then to society
might be multiplied many times over the Job Corps figure.
Some prefer to call the cost an investment in the future of America, both from
the standpoint of humanities and from a conservation interest.
FUTURE LOOKS DIM
The future of the Job Corps program does not look bright. Even as these words
are being written, 16 centers were being closed due to a shift of Federal funds to
the Adult Slum Employment Program.
Nobody can say how much tax money one boy is worth, but a visit to a conser-
vation center will convince anyone that much is being done to remold these young
Americans who have "missed the boat". There is little doubt in my mind now
that these boys will be far better citizens as a result of their tours of duty in the
Job Corps.
Unfortunately, it may be politics, not accomplishments, that will decide the
fate of the Job Corps.
PAGENO="0061"
1493
Mr. CLAPPER. We urge the administration to take a long, hard,
second look at each conservation center proposed to be closed `so that
our young people can be given the chance to break away from their
present environment.
In summary, we do believe that the present Job Corps conservation
centers are serving and will serve America well and we appreciate
the opportunity of making these remarks.
Thank you, sir.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead, Mr. Buckley.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Mr. Clapper, can you tell us in some general figures
to what degree conservation corpsmen have been transferred to urban
centers when they have upgraded their reading skills?
Mr. CLAPPER. I have no knowledge of any numbers on that score.
I know there have been many transfers of this type. But I can't really
give you the background. I can try to find the information and provide
it for the record, if you so desire.
it is considerable. As Dr. Smith pointed out, when our organization
acted as a sponsor for a joint meeting in which the planning was made
for some of these publications that are used to help these young men
read and write, and it is a revelation to try to figure out some type
of a reader that `a young man of 18 or 19 years can use when all of the
present materials have ben oriented toward the 6-year-old child. It is
something quite different.
We do believe that `some real contributions were made in this direc-
tion when these materials were developed. But there are many values
I don't think you can place an economic value. That is what I am
trying to say.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Along the same lines, if it is true, that the equivalency
of the education of these boys is something in the neighborhood of four
or five grades when you get them, they spend an average of 6 to 8
months in a conservation center and at that point complete that course
and are placed in a job. What `do you feel is the potential for this grad-
uate beyond the initial placement that is made for him?
Mr. CLAPPER. I think the Harris survey showed that these young
people were able to move right out into the mainstream of the employ-
ment picture after they had attained these skills. I don't know that
the survey carried on beyond that point to find out where they finally
wound up, but we would hope and assume that they would be then
competitive with the general public in the competition for jobs and
for these projects. I hope that is an answer.
Mr. BUCKLEY. It is, but the Harris survey also showed that they
made a big gain for the first 6 months after they left the center and
then a very small gain per hourly rate from 6 months to 12 months
after they left the center, indicating that there was a need for some
continuous basic education and also further training to upgrade them
in whatever skills they have acquired.
Mr. CLAPPER. I am sure that would be most beneficial. However, it
is hard to judge, I think, exactly `by the continuation of some of these
programs, because some of them move into a labor market and where
the races are automatic with respect to all the people in their partic-
ular area, and if they happen to `locate in some small area, where the
races aren't in accord with the usual labor picture, then this might not
be reflected in the statistics that the Harris survey showed. It `would be
difficult, I would think, to completely evaluate that just on the record
PAGENO="0062"
1494
of their complete work after they had gone out of the centers. But we
think it is a successful program.
Mr. BUCKLEY. If you would address yourself to the delegation of the
Job Corps program to the Labor Department as distinguished from
leaving it in the Office of Economic Opportunity, and if you agree that
6 or 8 months' training is not adequate to equip the enrollees for their
adult period, wouldn't it make sense to you to have this program a piece
of the entire manpower picture and that they then would have avail-
able to them the counseling and the variety of the programs that could
further upgrade them after they left conservation centers?
Mr. CLAPPER. Certainly we would have no objection to that type of
help being given to the people. Ho~wever, these programs are directed
primarily by the U.S. Forest Service, by the National Park Service,
and by the Bureau of the Sport Fisheries and Wildlife on which these
projects are located, where the camps are actually located.
I think this is where they get their main benefit, is from the conserva-
tion centers right there. Where they go after they have left the con-
servation center, anything you can do to improve them in this situation,
I think, would be endorsing, certainly.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Do you think there are any arrangements being made
for these people at the present time and has there been in the past three
and a half years?
Mr. Ci~~~rat They have referral centers, as I understand it, al-
*though I am not familiar with the statistics on this. But I think that
they have not been successful in placing some of the young people in
the way that they might have. I don't want to get into this part of the
program, because this is outside our area of the employment picture.
I am not as familiar with that as we are on the conservation camps and
the operations and what they learn there. Certainly anything that can
be done to help place these young people after they come out of the
conservation camps would be beneficial, in our opinion.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Thank you.
Mr. CLAPPER. Thank you.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Clapper, I want to compliment you on your
statement.
Is the type of training that is taking place in the conservation cen-
ters comparable to the training in the urban centers insofar as being
job oriented?
Mr. CLAPPER. Yes, sir; we think it is. In `addition, I want to reempha-
size the fact that we think that these men are producing useful work
while they are on this job training. I am not as familiar with the urban
centers and the work that they may be accomplishing there, if any.
Chairman PERKINS. I think personally it is doubly valuable; if the
public could see, they would appreciate the conservation work that
they are doing in the national parks and in the national forests, beauti-
fication, and making the parks attractive for tourists and not only are
they doing that, but they are learning many trades, crafts, and different
types of skills.
If I had my choice, I think I would take the conservation camps over
the other. But insofar as I am concerned, they both deserve equal
treatment.
Mr. CLAPPER. It should not be an either/or situation.
PAGENO="0063"
1495
Chairman PERKINS. It should not be an either/or. To say that the
conservation camps are not teaching any skills, just letting in a little
exposure to some conservation work and it is all a waste of time and
money and `they are not getting `any skillful training for a trade to
earn a livelihood. What are your comments along that line?
Mr. CLAPPER. We think they are receiving training which is very
good and fine for them and is, as the Harris survey showed, equipping
them for `a future employment picture. `We also are convinced that they
are making real contributions to conservation at the same time.
If you want to get into a real cost-benefit analysis, any of the costs
that are used for figuring the expense of sending a young man to a
conservation camp should `at least be partially offset by the value of
that work he is accomplishing. V
Chairman PERKINS. That is something that has never been considered
in any of the criteria that the Secretary of Labor has discilssed before
the committee.
No value has been placed on the conservation work. I will venture
to say that the conservation work that has taken place in the French-
burg Job Corps `Center in the national forest in my congressional dis-
trict could not have performed for `the entire cost of the Frenchburg
Job Corps Center since it has been established.
We are forgetting all about the value of conservation in `this country.
I am wondering what is going to happen to these facilities in the na-
tional parks, in the national forests that we have available, and how
much more money is the Government going to expend in keeping
these parks in the national forests in order?
I am hopeful that not only the committee, but many members of
the Congress could go into some of these national parks where we
have these Job Corps centers and just look at the conservation work
that is taking place, then on top of that, look at the type of training
that they are `receiving to earn a livelihood.'
I just hope that we can coiltinue to point up the great work, the
great good that flows from these conservation centers instead of dis-
counting it.
Do you agree with that?
Mr. CLAPPER. Yes, sir; the contributions have been material. You
know at th~e present time `that the manpower shortage is such that many
of the natioi~al parks are being operated only on a part-time b'asis.
Chairman PERKINS. V For that Voile reason it is to the advantage of
the city~oriented `to go to the national parks to visit. I just can't under-
stand the reasoning. I think the Department of Labor will do well to
have a little conference with some conservation-minded people in both
the Interior Department and Department of Agriculture and come to
some sensible conclusion before they kill the goose that laid the golden
egg. V V
Mr. CLAPPER. There are millions `and millions of hours of work
needed on the wildlife refuges and I am sure this material has been
developed and can be provided at a moment's notice. A `lot of them
`are being closed down because they are no longer attractive and because
of manpower shortage.
VChrairm,an PERKINS. Mr. Buckley, go ahead.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Mr. Clapper, have you read the General Accounting
Office report on their evaluation of the conservation centers?
PAGENO="0064"
1496
Mr. CLAPPER. ~o, I have not.
Mr. BUCKLEY. In substance they were critical of the Job Corps Con-
servation Corps on several counts: The high dropout rate, the lack of
skilled training, the placement rate and the high cost per enrollee
man-year of the Conservation Corps program as contrasted to the
urban Job Corps and the other training programs.
If you had read it, I wonder if you quarreled with their conclusions
and recommendations.
Mr. CLAPPER. I have not read it, sir. I can't comment.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Thank you.
Chairman PERKINS. Thank you very much, Mr. Buckley.
Our next witness is Mr. Pomeroy, chief forester, American Forestry
Association.
STATEMENT OF KEI~ETH B. POMEROY, CHIEF FORESTER, AMERI-
CAN FORESTRY ASSOCIATION, WASHINGTON, D.C.
Chairman PERKINS. We are delighted to welcome you here.
Mr. POMEROY. May I submit my statement for the record?
Chairman PERKINS. Without objection, it will be inserted in the
record.
(The statement referred to follows:)
STATEMENT OF KENNETH B. PoMEnoy, CHIEF FORESTER, THE AMERICAN FORESTRY
ASSOCIATION, REGARDING JOB CORPS CONSERVATION CAMPS
Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am Kenneth B. Pomeroy, Chief
Forester of `The American Forestry Association. Quite a few of our members are
familiar with the work of the Job Corps at the operating level. I would like to
tell you of my own observations at the Schenck Civilian Conservation Center in
North Carolina and the New Waverly Center in Texas.
I visited the Schenck Center in 1967 and 1968 to see the work being done in
restoration and development of the Cradle of Forestry. This project requires Skill
in carpentry, bricklaying, cement masonry and the use of heavy equipment. I
was pleased with the quality of the work. Of much greater importance was the
obvious pride each boy took in his work and in himself.
At Schenck other youths learned skills such as welding, automotive main-
tenance and cooking. I inspected each of these activities and found the work to be
commendable.
Schenck Center has a capacity of 204 men. During Fiscal Year 1968 the Center
placed 77 Corpsmen in jobs, 6 returned to school, 18 entered Military Service and
37 transferred to other training programs. The man-year cost per Corpsman was
$4,721.
For this expenditure the Government received some $700,000 worth of improve-
ments in road and trail construction, building construction, timber stand im-
provement, recreation development, wildlife habitat improvement and restoration
of the Cradle of Forestry.
At the New Waverly Center in Texas I was impressed by the Carpentry pro-
gram offered in cooperation with the United Brotherhood of Carpenters and
Joiners of America. The Union has stationed six master carpenters at this Center.
About 60 boys were enrolled in the training program at the time of my visit. I
inspected their activities in construction of a headquarters building at a Forest
Service automotive maintenance depot and found. the work to be excellent.
This carpentry program was launched in July, 1968. After eight months three
Corpsmen were placed in jobs in Houston at $3.21 per hour. Nine more youths
took their tests on April 14 for similar jobs in Houston, San Antonio and El Paso.
Fifteen more boys are expected to go into apprentice carpentry jobs when they
complete their 12-month training period.
The New Waverly Center also provides training in operation of heavy equip-
ment, cement masonry, welding, painting, cooking, building maintenance and
automotive mechanics. During fiscal year 1968 the Center placed 108 Corpsmen in
PAGENO="0065"
1497
jobs, 9 returned to school, 6 entered Military service and 65 transferred to Urban
Centers for more training. The cost per man-year of training was $4,693.
This reference to cost raises a question "What is a boy worth ?" Perhaps a dollar
and cents answer cannot be provided. But it is certain that if a youth who previ-
ously was a dropout and a potential burden to society becomes self-sup~xftting,
his contribution to the economy during a lifetime of service will be substantial.
Perhaps review of a personal experience will help answer the question, "What
is a boy worth ?"
In the 1930's I was a foreman in a Civilian Conservation Corps camp. The en-
rollees had backgrounds much like the present Corpsmen. I built roads with these
boys, planted trees and fought fires. I knew them well.
Last Christmas, 35 years `later, one of these lads telephoned me. He just wanted
to let me know `he had a nice family, his own business and time and money to
enjoy life. He thanked me for all I had done years ago.
But all I ever did was .to point out the jobs to be done and let him know I had
confidence in `his ability to do them.
Will you please show the same confidence by continuing the Job Corps?
`Chairman PERKINS. I am delighted to welcome somebody who
knows something about the outdoor life of America. You proceed in
any manner you prefer.
Mr. POMEROY. I `am Kenneth B. Pomeroy, the chief forester of the
American Forestry Association.
I know you folks have a great many more facts and much more in-
formation `about this program at your fingertips than I do. So I wou'ld
just like to tell you about my own personal observations in several of
the Job `Corps conserva'tion camps.
Chairman PERKINS. How long have you been with the Government?
Mr. POMEROY. I `am not with the Government. The, Ameri'can For-
estry Association is a citizens organization, about 65,000 people. And I
might say that most of `them are upper middle class and fairly affluent,
and probably none of `them ever got involved in something like this.
But they all think it is a good program and should be done.
I went to the camp in western North `Carolina a couple of years ago.
While there I noted that the lads breaking in the automotive mechan-
ical program ha'd received a new Plymouth automobile from the
Chrysler `Corp. as a gift. They h'ad taken this automo'bile `completely
apart, piece by piece, and t'hen wi'th ten'der loving care they put it all
back together again so it ran.
`These boys were tremendously proud of their achievement in putting
this car back together and making it run.
Two of them `were getting re:ady to go to a contest at Breckinridge,
Ky., in which other camps were to be represented to see which `ca'mp
had. the best team of mechanics th'at could operate on cars. I never did.
find out how the contest came out. But the point of it was that these
boys learned th'at they could `do something themselves. They were real
proud of it.
Then I went to the Schenck camp sometime `later. Here they were
restoring forestry. I happened to visit one of the com'missioners of the
Cradle of Forestry. This is the complex where management of forestry
first started in the 1890's. `These boys are. restoring the old cabins, the
training school.
One point there that interested `me greatly was the glass that~ was
used in the original cabins. This was hand-blown glass. I am sure you
have seen some of it yourself. You `can recognize it by some of the
ripples, and so on.
27-7M-69----pt. 3-5
PAGENO="0066"
1498
One of these lads had the responsibility of taking care of this gh~ss
and putting it in the windows. He cautioned me to be very careful that
I might break one of these. It was an antique bit of glass. Here, again,
it was a sense of responsibility that this boy had de ~reloped.
This winter I visited the New Waverly camp in east Texas. The New
Waverly is one that I understand is scheduled to be dropped. The pro-
gram there is of much interest to me. There is a contract with the
Carpenters Union, in w~hich the union supplies six master carpenters.
They had 60 boys enrolled in this carpentry tra.ining program. It only
started in July of last year.
But at the time I was there, three boys had already been placed in
Houston at $3.21 an hour. Nine more boys were taking their test on
April 14 for similar jobs at Houston, San Antonio, and El Paso, and
15 boys expected to be placed at the end of their 12-month program.
Here, again, it was a sense of achievement and responsibility that
the boy himself acquired.
The discussion of what it costs to train one of these enrollees raises
a question: "What is a boy worth?" Perhaps a dollar-and-cents answer
cannot be provided. But it is certain that if a youth who was pre-
viously a dropout and a potential burden to society becomes self-
supporting, his contribution to the economy during a lifetime of service
will be substantial.
Perhaps a review of personal experience `will help answer the ques-
tion, what is a. boy worth?
In the 1930's I was a foreman in a Civilian Conservation Corps camp
in northern Wisconsin. The enrollees had backgrounds much like the
present corpsmen. I built roads with these boys. I fought fires. I
planted trees with them. I knew them well.
Last Christmas, 35 years later, one of these lads telephoned me.
He just wanted to let me know that he had a nice family, a good job,
his own business, and `he `had the time and the money to enjoy life. He
thanked me for all I had done years ago.
But, Mr. Chairman, all I ever did was point out the jobs to be done
and to let this fellow know that I had confidence in his ability to do
the job.
Will you and your committee please show the same confidence in
these boys today?
Thank you.
Chairman PERKINS. Let me say that I can appreciate those depression
days and the Civilian Conservation Corps days. I think I know some-
thing about all of the types of work performed in those Civilian
Conservation Corps camps that you have described here today.
I think it would be great if all the Members in the Congress under-
stood the type of training in the old Civilian Conservation Corps and
how the youngsters went on and earned a livelihood, changed jobs-
some of them, many times-and learned to get along with their com-
munity in general.
All of these were the attributes that were taught at a Civilian Con-
servation Corps camp. I am one of these fellows who believes that if
you don't lea.rn a trade, if you `don't learn sorne;t.hing about a basic
trade when you are young, it is much more difficult to do it when you
are older.
You and I know the value of these programs. At least, I think we
do. I know thnt we have got a difficult task to sell to t;he administration
PAGENO="0067"
1499
the good works coming out of these conservation camps and the urban
centers. I think we might as well make up our minds that we are gomg
to have to roll up our sleeves and fight, because there are too many
people who don't understand that. They think that you can go over
here in some so-called minicenter and get the. training.
It is not going to reach this hard core ind'ividua:l that you and I are
talking about at all. There will be enrollees, undoubtedly, for those
so-called minicenters, because 15 percent of the youngsters today that
want to take technical training. They don't have these slots available
in the technical schools in America.
Vocational schools don't have the slots. So they can fill these slots
up all right. But they are not going to fill them up with the type of
youngster that we are presently serving in the Job Corps. That is our
big problem.
I am hopeful that through statements like yours, and men with your
views, that we can convince `the administration to let these Job Corps
centers go ahead and operate. At least, we are going `to do our d'arndest.
I want to compliment you for coming here `today.
Mr. Buckley?
Mr. BUCKLEY. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman. I would like to
make the observation that one of `the centers that our witness refers to
is the very top, No. 1, center, the Sch'enck Center.
`The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for coming. We appreciate
your appearance.
Mr. Belindo, come `around.
STATEMENT OF JOHN EELINDO, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL
CONGRESS OF AMERICAN INDIANS
Chairman PERKINS. Let me welcome you here today.
Mr. BELINDO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. We know that you have a message to bring us.
Mr. BELINDO. I am John Belindo, Kiowa-Navajo, Navajo Indian,
`and executive director of the National Congress of American Indians..
The National Congress `of the American Indians is the only private
national organization of the Indian people themselves where the voting
`and programing is limited to legally recognized Indians and Indian
tribes. We are responsible for speaking up for the Indian people on
a national scale.
Chairman PERKINS. Somewhere along the line give ust'he number of
the Job Corps on and off the Indian reservations and the Indian com-
munities.
Mr. BELINDO. I sure will.
We stand in strong opposition to the announced cutback in the Job
Corps centers, especially the closing of Job Corp's centers which serve
Indian reservations.
We represent 105 Indian `tribes, includin,g Alaska Native villages
`and over 350,000 Americall Indians.
I appreciate the opportunity to testify today `in strong opposition to
the announced emasculation of the Job Corps program and in par-
ticular the elimination of nine `centers which were serving to offer some
hope to American Indian youth.
Let me say at the outset that the average annual income for Indians
is $1,500, 75 percent below the national average. The unemployment
PAGENO="0068"
1500
rate for Indians hovers around 50 percent, which is 10 times the na-
tional average.
Even more start1in~ conditions than these were observed among In-
dian Americans by ~tan Steiner, author of the recently published
book, "The New Indians." Stein related some statistics from a 1962-63
Government survey of employment among tribal Indians which re-
ported that:
* * * on the plains of the Dakotas, the Pine Ridge Sioux had 2,175 of 3,400
tribal adults unemployed (yearly family income was $105), the Rosebud Sioux
had 1,720 of 2,996 unemployed (yearly family income, $1,000-though the tribe,
four years later, estimated $600 was more accurate); the Standing Rock Sioux
had 500 of 880 heads of households unemployed (yearly farnily income, $190. * * *
To the north, on the Blackfeet Reservation of Montana, the "permanent un-
employment" rate was 72.5 percent. The yearly tribal income was "less than $500
per family."
Down in Mississippi, on the Choctaw Reservation, of 1,225 adults there were
1,05~ jobless. Unemployment rate: 86.1 percent.
Where the tranquil and ancient Pueblos of New Mexico stood, seemingly
impervious to the economic winds, there were 10,699 jobless out of 13,711. Unem-
ployment among these, perhaps the oldest of the country's inhabitants, was 77
percent. The Hopis, too, those idyllic "peaceful people," had a less than idyllic
unemployment rate of 71.7 percent.
In the Pueblo de Acoma, the "City in the Sky" unemployment stood at 89.6
percent. * * *
In the mythology of the oil-rich Indians so credulously buzzahed by television
comedians and popular legends, none are supposedly wealthier than the Oklahoma
tribes. And yet the Five Civilized Tribes reporied an unemployment rate of 55
percent and an annual income per family, including the fabled oil-lease payments,
that came to little more than $1,200.
So it went from tribe to tribe. Unemployment rates from 40 to 80 percent;
incomes from $105 to $1,200.
These statistics are neither new nor surprising. However, the mixture of the
old poverty and the new Indians who have seen the material riches of the outside
world, and who are angered and impatient, has created an explosive situation.
"If something isn't done, the young men may go to violence." * * *
At its 1968 25th annual convention, the National Congress of Amer-
ican Indians made it clear that:
The social and economic conditions of many Indian people, when compared
to that of the general population, almost defy comprehension. Adult Indians
living on reservations are, as a group, only half as well educated as other citizens,
their life expectancy is one-third less, and their average annual income, two-
thirds less. Nine out of ten of their homes are comparatively unfit for human
habitation, and their unemployment rate is several times above the national
average.
The evidence is conclusive that these Indian people do not share equitably in
the bounty of their homeland-the world's richest nation.
The statement goes on to recite a number of reasons for the slow
progress in spite of prolonged Federal effort. I call to your attention
the first two of those reasons, and offer the entire resolution for the
record.
(1) Federal Indian policy has suffered extreme pendulum swings
from overpaternalism to threatened termination of Federal protection
of Indian lands and resources and vital community services. The In-
dian people have never had an opportunity to key their own efforts to
stable, secure and predictanle programs.
(2) Indian people have been falsely encouraged by attractive Fed-
eral programs only to find them fade or disappear because of lack of
appropriations. Programs without funding or with inadequate fund-
ing have constantly confused and disappointed the Indian tribes.
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Chairman PERKINS. Without objection, it will be inserted in the
record.
(The document referred to follows:)
RESOLUTION NO. 1-19G8 POLICY STATEMENT OF THE NATIONAL
CONGRESS OF AMERI'OAN INDIANS
The American Indian is unique both as to opportunities and as to problems. No
~ther group of Oltizens stand in precisely the same relation to the Federal Govern~
ment. This relationship i~ deeply rooted in treaties and laws which give the
United States responsibility for the protection of Indians and their resources. In
addition to these special rights and protections he is entitled to enjoy the same
rights, privileges and services as do other citizens.
Despite the treaties, the special Indian Rights and this exercise of responsi-
bility by the Federal Government our Indian people have never attained true
parity as American citizens. The social and economic conditions of many Indian
people when compared to that of the general population, nimost defy compre-
hension. Adult clndians living on reservations are, as a group, only half as well
educated as other citizens, their life expedtancy is one third less and their average
annual income 2/3 less. Nine out of ten of their homes are comparatively unfit for
human habitation and their unemployment rate is several times above the national
average.
The evidence is conclusive that these Indian people do not share equitably in
the bounty of their homeland-the -w~rld's richest nation.
Despite a prolonged Federal effort to improve Indian well being, progress has
been slow. Some of the major causes for this slowness have been:
1. Federal Indian policy has suffered extreme pendulum swings from over
paternalism to threatened termination of federal protection of Indian lands
and resources and vital community services. The Indian people have never
had an opportunity to key `their own efforts to stable, secure and predictable
Federal programs.
2. Indian people have been falsely encouraged by attractive federal pro-
grams only to find them fade and disappear because of lack of appropria-
*tions. Programs without funding or with inadequate funding have constantly
confused and disappointed the Indian tribes.
3. Long range tribal planning has been discouraged by the hovering spectre
of termination. On the one hand the Federal Government has talked of itself
as a "partner" available to work with the Indians in their expanding the
developing future. On the other hand, `the Congressional Policy for termina-
tion has lingered like a death sentence under constant appeal by the Indians
for commutation.
4. The social, political, economic, cultural, and geographical isolation of
many tribal groups have mitigated against their effective utilization of avail-
able government programs and services from agencies other than the Bureau
of Indian Affairs and the Division of Indian Health.
5. Much of the energy of our tribes has been expended, not in creative
long range planning, not in projects and aciivities to uplift their people but
in a "back to the wall fight" to preserve and protect their special rights as
Indians, such as treaty rights, against the never ending assaults that would
wipe them out should the Indians' vigilance ever be relaxed.
Until positive and dynamic action is undertaken by the legislative and execu-
tive branches of government to correct these major conditions, a large percentage
of Indian people will never achieve the full economic and social parity to which
they are entitled.
The National Congress of American Indians, speaking for almost 400,000 Ameri-
can Indians who continue to maintain their special relationship with the Federal
Government, has consistently advocated the adoption of a long range Indian
policy by our government that would permit the following:
1. Self determination by the Indian people in their quest for social and
economic equality.
2. Protection of Indian lands and resources and maintenance of tax-exempt
status for income derived from such lands.
3. Maximum development of the human and natural resources of Indians
with the assistance of the Bureau of Indian Affairs and all other federal
agencies offering programs and services designed to relieve conditions of
poverty among all Americans.
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1502
4. Maximum participation of Indian tribal governing units and rank and
file tribal members in all programs directed to Indian reservations and Indian
communities.
~. The right of Indian people to enjoy the same rights, privileges, and im-
munities accorded to all citizens of the nation.
May we conclude by saying a word about Indian participation in the Poor
People's March and other public demonstrations.
We, as Individuals, as a race and as a social and economic minority may have
suffered more than others and our problems, as we said in the beginning, are
uniquely Indian. Therefore, our solutions must be uniquely Indian. We can
achieve more by our own methods. As a relatively small segment of poor society,
our special needs can be lost in the welter of the disorganized millions of poor
people the leaders of whom have little knowledge of the special problems and
circumstances of the Indian people.
We Indians and our chosen spokesmen can best speak for ourselves.
May we at this Convention express our sympathy for the. poor people of Amer-
ica and encourage our Indian people to work as they wish in their behalf. But
may we Indians and Indian organizations in working for our Indian poor, par-
ticularly those on our reservations, avoid the use of public demonstrations and
seek to accomplish our ends through our regular organizations and governmental
channels.
The following resolutions will deal with many of these "special needs" and
"special rights".
REsoLUTIoN No. 7
Whereas, the National Congress of American Indians during its Convention at
Omaha, Nebraska, on September 27, 1968, adopted Resolution No. 24, supporting
Job Corps Centers administered as part of Office of Economic Opportunity pro-
grams; and
Whereas, the National Congress of American Indians is aware of continued
benefits realized by Indian youth in the areas of vocational and remedial educa-
tion because of their involvement in the Job Corps program: Now, therefore, be it
Resolved, That the National Congress of American Indians reaffirm its position
expressed by Resolution No. 24 and request the support of all agencies concerned
for continuation of this valuable program; and be it further
Resolved. That this Resolution be sent to the President of the United States,
Vice-President of the United States, Director, Office of Economic Opportunity and
to Members of the Congress concerned, this 23rd day of January, 1969.
Adopted by Executive Council of the National Congress of American Indians,
assembled in Session at Washington, D.C., on January 21-23, 1969.
(S) Wendell Chino
Rev. WENDELL CHIN0,
President, National Congress of American Indians.
(5) Robert Jim
Mr. ROBERT JIM,
Chairman, Resolutions Committee, NCAL
REsoLUTIoN No. 24-FLATHEAD RESERvATION JOB CORPS CENTER
Whereas, the President's message to the United States Congress on goals and
programs for American Indians closed March 6th, 1968, emphasizing the need for
education at all levels; and
Whereas, the Kicking Horse Job Corps Center located on the Flathead Indian
Reservation, Montana, is designated as predominantly an Indian Conservation
Center by the Job Corps; and
Whereas. this Job Corps Center was established as a pilot program in compli-
ance with the recommendation of Indians in assembly at the National Convention
of American Indians conventions in 1967, at Portland, Oregon; and
Whereas, the success of the program is evidenced by the participation of 52
Indian youth from various sections of the country; and
Whereas, this Job Corps program has the full-pledged support of the Inter-
TrTheI Policy Board of Montana: Now, therefore, be it
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1503
Resolved, That the National Congress of American Indians in Convention of
September 24-27, 1968, hereby endorse and give allegiance to this program urging
OEO Job Corps to continue this pilot program as a permanent program involving
all American Indians.
Mr. BELINDO. The words "defy comprehension" may seem exag-
gerated. But I ask you Members of Congress to attempt to conceive
of providing for your own or anyone else's family on an annual family
income of $105 to $500 or $1,200 or even $1,500.
President John F. Kennedy said in his inaugural address: "If a free
society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who
are rich."
It seems to me that if we can afford billions upon billions of dollars
in defense spending, we can appropriate the $285.1 million needed to
meet the desperate needs of our young people who are served by the
Job Corps centers. Compare this figure with the analysis of defense
spending printed in "U.S. News & World Report" on November 25,
1968:
$2 billion for MBT-70 tanks.
$8 billion for the F-ill (TFX) swing-wing airplanes and its VFX counterpart.
~i2 billion for nuclear-attack submarines.
$7 billion for the Minuteman III missiles and Poseidon missiles.
$4.5 billion for military cargo planes.
$5-$40 billion for the "thin" Sentinel ABM system.
The list goes on und on. We continue to ignore the needs of our poor
in the name of defense. And keep in mind that most of the itbove
weapons of war are replacements for previous weapons now obsolete,
which were the old excuses for not doing the things that need to be
done to eliminate poverty.
I am concerned with the inflationary spiral. When the price of food
goes up at the grocery store, it seriously affects people who live on
$1,500 .per year. But to curb it, the answer does not lie in eliminating
from the Federal budget those programs which are designed to help
in providing long-range methods for people to escape from this kind
*of poverty. A nation which can afford a $6,687,500 raise for its legis-
lators cannot justify penalizing its poor on account of a fear of infla-
tion. Where are our priorities, when the increase in the pay of any one
Member of Congress is almost 10 times as great as the average annual
income of any one Indian
In a speech delivered for Richard M. Nixon, then a candidate, on
September 27, 1968, the assembled convention of the National Congress
of American Indians, at Omaha, Nebr., was told:
The Indian people have been continuous victims of unwise and vacillating
Federal policies and serious, if unintentional, mistakes. Their plight is a bitter
exam~1e of what's wrong with the bankrupt old approach to the problems of
minorities. They have been treated as a colony within a nation-~to be taken care
of. They should-and they must-be made part of the mainstream of American
life. * *
* * * My administration will be pledged to the following policies:
* * The right of self determination of the Indian people will be respected,
and their participation in planning their own destiny will be encouraged. * * *
The important part of this speech which is relevant at this time is
the reference to the economic development of Indian reservations.
The economic development of Indian reservation's will be encouraged, and the
training of the Indian people for meaningful employment on and off the reserva-
tion will have high priority.
PAGENO="0072"
1504
To date, the basic error of attempting to train the Indian work force only for
off-reservation jobs has been the major cause of the lack of normal progress on
the reservation.
My administration will promote tim economic development of the reservation by
offering economic incentives to private industry to locate there and provide oppor-
tunities for Indian employment and training. * * *
Job training for Indian people must be accelerated on and off the reservation.
I have promised my full backing to the Vocationxi Education Act and will see to
it that the Indian people enjoy the full benefits of its provisions.
The administration of Federal programs affecting Indians will be carefully
studied to provide maximum efficiency consistent with program continuity.
The Indians had plans for their own destiny. At the same convention
in Omaha, NCAT, speaking for its membership, sought to exercise the
right of self-determination of the Indian people, and expressed an
emphatic endorsement of the Kicking Horse Jth Corps Center, located
on the Flathead Indian Reservation in Montana, which had been desig-
nated as the only predominantly Indian conservation center by the Job
Corps:
Whereas this Job Corps center was established as a pilot program in com-
pliance with the recommendation of Indians in assembly at the National Congress
of American Indians Convention in 1961, at Portland, Oregon; and
Whereas the success of the program is evidenced by the participation of 52
Indian youths from various sections of the country; and
Whereas this Job Corps program has the full-fledged support of the inter-
Tribal Policy Board of Montana : sow, therefore, be it
Resolved, That the National Congress of American Indians in convention of
September 24-27, 1968, hereby endorse and give allegiance to this program, urging
OEO Job Corps to continue this pilot program as a permanent program involving
all American Indians.
I offer that resolution in its entirety for the record. There could be no
doubt of the continuity of support of the Indian people for the Job
Corps program in general, aiid the Kicking Horse Center in par-
ticular.
At the meeting of the executive council of the National Congress of
American Indians in January 1969, at Washington, D.C., and after
the inauguration of President Nixon, our membership reaffirmed its
position.
Whereas the National Congress of American Indians is aware of continued
benefits realized by Indian youth in the areas of vocational and remedial educa-
tion because of their involvement in the Job Corps program: Now, therefore. be it
Resolved, That the National Congress of American Indians reaffirm its position
expressed by Resolution No. 24 and requests the support of all agencies concerned
for continuation of this valuable program; and be it further
Resolved, That this resolution be sent to the President of the United States * * *
this 23rd day of January 1969.
I offer the resolution in its entirety for the record. Ignoring this, the
administration proposes to close four out of five BIA-operated male
Job Corps centers and the Clinton, Iowa, women's center, where most
Indian women were located. What are the implications of discontinu-
ing Job Corps centers, such as the Kicking Horse Center, with regard
to Federal responsibility for young American Indians? Where was the
respect for Indian self-determination?
The Kicking Horse Job Corps Center was among those ordered
closed in spite of the resolutions and in spite of the fact that the Kick-
ing Horse Center has a lower cost per man-year than 25 centers that
will remain open. Its percentage of category I graduates exceeds that
of 22 centers that will remain open, the average length of stay of its
PAGENO="0073"
1505
Corpsmen exceeds that of 17 centers that will remain open, and it is the
only center earmarked predominantly for Indians.
Additionally, the camp has brought in an `annual payroll of $432,340
and has helped 298 Indian boys obtain an equal share of opportunity.
I know that may seem like an insignificant number in terms of the
total program and the number of enrollees `at other Job Corps centers.
But, to us, when we are lacking for leadership and jobs for Indian
people, this is very significant to us.
Chairman PmKINs. That means `an awful lot.
Mr. BELIND0. The Kicking Horse Center has done a magnificent job
with its boys in recreation, conservation, and community development
projects, totaling some $1,469,587. When the closing order was an-
nounced, the Kicking Horse Center, which has a capacity of 200 young
men, had 197 in attendance with four additional Indian corpsmen on
the way. There were already 121 Indians in attendance, in addition to
76 non-Indians.
TJnlike some of the urban centers, the Ki'cking Horse Center has,
from the outset, enjoyed excellent community relations. The view of
`the "community," which `consists of the confederated Salish and Koo-
tenai Tribes of the Flathead Reservation, is well represented by their
reaction to the closing order:
The Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes are shocked by the arbitrary
closure of the Kicking Horse Job Corps Conservation Center, Ronan, Montana.
This is the only predominantly Indian center in the United States. Its loss would
`be another example of the disregard by the Federal Government of the needs of
the first Americans. We strongly urge reconsideration of this decision and request
you keep Kicking Horse open. It has an outstanding record, and the impact of its
training of Indian youth is just beginning to be felt.
In December 1967 the Kicking Horse Center received a Citation of
Merit signed `by the Secretary of the Interior Stewart TJdall for "out-
standing achievement in all phases of operation and is meeting the
needs of the you'ng corpsmen."
I also would like to make reference to the fact that it is incredible
that the administration would precipitously order closing of four out of
the five.
Chairman PERKINS. Did you receive any prior notice of any type
that they intended to close the Kicking Horse Center?
Mr. BELINDO. No. There was no prior notice given to these `centers
at all as to the closing.
Chairman PERKINS. Nobody came there to make an investigation or
evaluation? The notice came out of the clear blue sky?
Mr. BELINDO. That is right, no notification at all.
`Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead.
Mr. BELINDO. It is incredible that the administration would close
four out `of five operating Job Corps centers.
The citation read:
The progress made by the Corpsmen reflect the dedication and interest of a
highly qualified and trained staff who superbly execute a well-planned education
program. The credit for the success of the vocation-educational program is di-
rectly related to the well-prepared plans and the exceptional ability of the staff
to coordinate the vocational, education'ai, and work programs. Accomplishments
in these fields of endeavor instill pride in the Corpsmen.
The members of the staff have maintained excellent public relations with the
Indian tribe, reservation communities, neighboring communities, and other Gov-
ernment agencies. Through the cooperation of the entire st~ff and the Corpsmen,
PAGENO="0074"
1506
the Center received commendation for their outstanding safety record in fiscal
year 1967. Maintenance of the Center was continually and progressively improved.
For outstanding achievements in the overall operations of the Civilian Conserva-
tion Center, the Kicking Horse Job Corps Center of the Bureau of Indian Affairs
is granted the Department of Interior Unit Award for Excellence of Service.
How fleeting is the glory from an award of merit when decisions of
the Government are dictated by politics rather than merit. How deva-
stating to the hopes of our people! How decidedly cruel to raise such
hopes and then smash them!
Secretary of Labor Shult.z expects to save $100 million by the order.
How much money will we spend when the 17,000 corpsmen affected
by the closing order, angry and frustrated, will be sent back to their
urban ghettos and impoverished reservations, on July 1, 1969, in the
heat of the summer? And who will bear the blame for what follows?
Given the words of the President, the economic condition of the
reservations, and the gradual but apparent successes of the program,
it is incredible that the administration would precipitously order clos-
ing of four out of the five BIA-operated Job Corp conservation
centers, the sole exception being the Fort Simcoe Center, on the Yaki-
ma Reservation in Washington.
Let me turn specifically to the shutdown of other Job Corps centers
situated on reservations in the Southwestern LTnit.ed States-the clos-
ing of the (1) Eight Canyon Conservation Center on the Mescalero
Apache Reservation in New Mexico, the (2) San Carlos Conservation
Center on the San Carlos Apache Reservation in Arizona, and the
(3) Winslow Conservation Center just off the Navajo Reservation at
Winslow. Ariz.
We protest the entire concept of closing 50 of the 82 conservation
centers "generally in rural area" so that industrial training in urban
minicenters can substitute. Such a plan, it seems to me, was conceived
in total disregard for the desires of the Indian people. It certainly does
not point up the awareness with which President Nixon spoke when
he said:
Off the reservation many Indians, some of them unwisely relocated by the
Federal Government, have not been successfully assimilated and find themselves
confined to hopeless city reservations of despair because of lack of education and
skills. * *
We must recognize that American society can allow many different cultures to
flourish in harmony, and we must provide an opportunity for those Indians wish-
ing to do so to lead a useful and prosperous life in an Indian environment.
I cannot think of anything that would be more mutually deleterious
to both the urban ghettos and to the Indians than the transfer of any
substantia.l number of untrained, undereducated and unacclimated.
young Indians to the iimer cities.
One of the greatest problems that we face now as Indian people is
the fact that statistics say that there is migration from the rural areas
to the cities. The BIA says that 200,000 out of a population of 550,000
American Indians now live in the cities and that, because of economic
deprivation on the reservation, if we can find more jobs for Indians~
move them to the cities, they can be assimilated into the mainstream.
Of course, I think a majority of the Indian people would completely
reject the concept of the American mainstream. This may come as a
surprise, but that goes back, I think, to the Indian philosophy of life
and his reverence for the land and his reverence for the people and
PAGENO="0075"
1507
the community in which he lives. He feels that if he goes to the cities,
if he becomes a part of a mini-urban-center program, that the forces
in the city are not as such that would allow him to live a good life.
Certainly, the problem of the "urban Indian" in Minneapolis, San
Francisco, Los Angeles, and other cities is severe enough, without
multiplying this problem.
The less expensive "minicenter" program is designed, as we under-
stand it, to provide a dormitory room and board and on-the-job train-
ing in urban centers. What it clearly fails to take into account is the
fact that students were assigned under the existing system into either
conservation or "swing" or urban centers, based on their level of pre-
paredness measured by a number of factors.
For example, those with a reading level below grade four were all
assigned to conservation centers, while those having reached grade
seven reading level were assigned to urban centers. Below grade four
an individual is considered "illiterate"-unahle to read-while those at
the "swing" centers, with reading level between grades four and
seven, for the most part, are "functionally illiterate," that is, capable
of only the simplest kind of reading. Taking such an individual into
the city and teaching him a single job, usually unskilled or semiskilled,
is condemning him to a life of permanent poverty. In other words, for
those who have been receiving training at the conservation centers,
remedial education is a necessary adjunct of any job training pro-
gram. The minicenter offers no such opportunities.
Unfortunately, as a result of childhood in a home where no English
is spoken, inadequacies of present programs of Indian education, high
Indian dropout rates, and other factors, many Indians fall into the
category of functional illiteracy or below. In addition, because of cul-
tural and/or psychological reasons, most Indians do not desire to be-
come permanent urbanites.
The conservation centers were providing training, in addition to
basic remedial education, in such areas as forest management, heavy
equipment operation, and construction, which enabled Indians to ac-
quire work skills while maintaining their relationship with the land.
The administration proposal is not only not sympathetic to this need,
but. it seems unaware that it exists.
The San Carlos Conservation Center, with a $3,933 cost per man-
year, was more economical to run than 26 conservation centers slated
to remain open. It surpassed 23 surviving centers in category I gradu-
ates and rates better than 17 of the surviving conservation centers in
length of stay. Of the seven categories df criteria allegedly used by the
Department of Labor in determining closures, San Carlos bettered 19
of the centers remaining open in a majority of the criteria. it is clear
that the judgments that have been made were made politically and
am~hitrarily. There were 189 Corpsmen on board at San Carlos.
The San Carlos Center is located in a county which has a population
of 41,000 and a median family income of $1,280 annually, with an
average unemployment rate of 74 percent. The annual Job Corps ex-
penditure is in the area of $1,724,442. For the people of this region, the
closing of the Job Corps center is an economic disaster.
The Eight Canyon Center in New Mexico had an on-board stren~th
of 193 corpsmen at the time of the closing order. It is located in a
county where the situation is only slightly better than that at San
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Carlos. Located in Otero County, N. Mex., the county has a population
of 14,000 people, having a median family income of $2,160 and an
average unemployment rate of 59 percent. The annual Job Corps
expenditure in the area annually has been $1,023,804. Calculate the
impact of removing this expenditure from the area.
Eight Canyon had conservation work program accomplishments
totalling $502,998, with 193 students on board at the time of the closing
order. The center bettered five of those centers which survive in a
majority of the categories allegedly used as criteria.
Winslow Center, the smallest of the ETA-operated conservation
centers, with 173 corpsmen in attendance, also had, by far, the lowest
cost per man-year identifiable, with a reported $1,581, far less than the
$8,000 per-year-per-enrollee figure reported to the `press as the cost of
operating such centers. As a matter of fact, none of the BTA-operated~
centers remotely approached such a figure, the highest being Eight
Canyon's $4,940. IVinslow bettered nine of the surviving centers in a
majority of criteria.
Tn addition to the four BTA-operated centers for men closed by the
order, there were five centers for women of particular concern to the
National Congress Of American Tndi'ans.
Many, `but not all, of the reasons for `saving the male conservation
centers apply to the women's centers. These centers are ungraded and
operated in urban areas for the most part. But, for many Indian
women, the Corps represents, as the Indian Corps of Women at the
Clinton, Iowa, center wired soon after getting the closing order: "Our
only `chance for a better life." What can be added to that?
If I may, I would like to read a letter from one of the students at the
Clinton, fowa, Job Corps center. It is a very short letter, but I think
it is important that you hear this.
Chairman PERKINS. All right, go `ahead. Take all the time you want.
Mr. BELINDO. Thank you.
The letter is addressed to President Nixon from Fay Whitecal.f, of
Clinton, Iowa:
PRESIDENT NIXON: I doubt if you will ever see my letter, since it is one of many
to he placed in a category. But I have something to say and I hope I say it for a
lot of people.
Job Corps and other organizations have furnished us with another chance. I
shudder to think where I would have been if it hadn't been for Jo)) Corps. I have
discovered talents in myself I didn't know I had. I've learned to understand and
get along with people of other races. Something I had never done before. I've
learned to appreciate the modern conveniences of life and I now have the desire to
work for them instead of waiting for them. I've learned that there are people in
this world that can be trusted. Something I think more people should have the
chance to learn. Then perhaps the world would be a better place to live. I don't
claim to be a saint now, nor do I claim that everybody that comes to Job Corps
learns these things. Some just aren't willing to learn. They have been hurt too
bad to change. But there are those of us who are very much willing to learn. Not
just to better ourselves, but to give what knowledge we've acquired to our parents
and others who are connected with us.
I really dread the day when the Job Corps will close. Because If it closes before
I have the chance to get what I came here for, I know I will be a disgrace to my
family when I go back to the way I was living before.
Well, there have been good times and bad times in our centers. But the good is
never publicized. Perhaps it should be. Well, our futures are in your hands and
at your disposal. If your mind is already made up, I suppose no amount of talking
will change your mind. But I just had to say what I felt.
Sincerely yours,
PAY.
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I think it is very well demonstrated that the training that sh~ has
received is very essential, I think, to the kind of life that she will lead
after she leaves the Center itself.
In addition to the Center at Clinton, Iowa, we especially regret the
ordered closing of the Poland Springs, Maine Center, the St. Louis
Urban Center, the Omaha Urban Center, and the Center at Moses Lake,
Washington-all of which serve some Indian women, although the
major contingent is at Clinton.
I can speak with some pride and knowledge about at least one prod-
uct of the Women's Job Corps, for NCAI employs as a secretary in
our industrial development section here in Washington a girl who was
the first graduate of the Los Angeles Urban Center. She has had several
jobs in Washington and is capable of working as a secretary for anyone.
She is a stanch supporter of the program. But even she is on her
second try in Washington, because after a period of time the call of
the reservation became too strong for her.
We must not force the Indian population to make a choice between
urban employment and reservation, unemployment.
The administration propOses to solve the reservation problem by
increasing the industrial development on Indian reservations and en-
couraging private industry to locate there.
We had had, of course, considerable activity in economic develop-
ment of reservations by private industry in the past. White men come
to the reservation, negotiate a long-term, low-priced lease through the
Bureau of Indian Affairs, and carefully remove the bounty of the reser-
vation, be it oil, gold, copper, bauxite, or timber, while the Indians
remain, for the most part, impoverished.
But, as I said early in this statement, there has been some economic
development since the war on poverty began. As of December 31, 1968,
there were 150 industrial and commercial enterprises established on
or near reservations as a result of Indian industrial development pro-
grams. Of these, 140 or 93 percent had been established since the
beginning of 1962.
At the present time these enterprises have created approximately
10,000 new jobs, of which 4,700 `are held by Indians. If industrial
development seems like a panacea to the problems of the reservation
Indians, I ask you to recall the statistics I recited at the beginning of
this talk. In 1962 there were 10,699 unemployed Pueblos alone; in
1968 there were approximately 45,000 Indians in the 14-to-21 age
bracket.
For the industrial enterprises now in existence, it is projected that
eventually these will provide a total of 15,000 jobs, of which, it is
hoped, 65 percent will be held by Indians. Twice, or even three times,
this number of jobs will not solve the problem. And how long will
it `take to create these jobs, while poverty and hunger abound.on the
reservation?
`In addition to merely providing jobs, serious improvement in the
process of Indian education is necessary, and it requires the vocational
and, especially, remedial education that the Job Corps has beenafford-
ing to a limited number of Indian corpsmen. Instead of cutting back
on the Job Corps program on Indian reservations, it should be ex-
panded. But it is typical of the programs of the Federal Government
that as they win the confidence of the Indian, they are. eliminated.
PAGENO="0078"
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But, more than any other single factor, the Indian people of his
country require a chance for self-determination. The tribes are pre-
pared to negotiate with industry for development, particularly when
the Government can make loans available. But, as the success of the
Rough. Rock School has demonstrated, programs run by the tribe
have a better chance of success than programs imposed from the
outside.
Neither Secretary Shultz nor President. Nixon nor the U.S. Congress
should have the right to tell American Indians that if they want to
have a future, they must go to "urban centers." That program failed
before. It will fail again.
For the record, I submit copies of several telegrams and other com-,
munications received by the NCAI protesting the closing of the Job
Corps centers I have mentioned in my talk.
(The documents referred to follow:)
JoHN BELINDO,
National. COngress American. Indians,
Washington, D.C.:
Help us save Job Corps. Our only chance for better life.
INDIAN Cours OF WOMEN,
Clinton Job Corp Center. Clinton, Iowa.
JOHN BELIND0,
Washington, D.C.:
I regret to learn that your administration has decided to close down the very
few Job Corp conservation centers now operating on Indian reservations. These
centers on Indian reservations are a vital part of a vigorous effort to improve
and develop resources for the reservations. In most cases Job Corp centers on
Indian reservations are the only means for this effort, therefore, another possible
area for development has been dashed by the U.S. Government.
Job Corp centers on Indian reservations operated under the Bureau of Indian
Affairs cannot and should not be viewed in the same category as non-Indian
Job Corps centers.
I would appreciate the opportunity to discuss with you the value and the impact
of Job Corp centers on Indian reservations.
Very truly yours,
WENDELL CHIN0,
President, Mescalero Apache Tribe.
National Congress of American Indians.
JOHN BELINDO,
Executive Director, NCAI,
Washington, D.C.:
We are protecting the colsing of the Kicking Horse Job Corps Camp at Ronan,
Mont. Since the opening on Jan Qun 1966 the camp has had 298 Indian boys there,
13 of them are Indian families. An annual payroll of $432,340 benefits the local
are directly work accomplishments in areas of recreation conservatiOn and corn-
munity projects have amounted to 1,469,587. Majority of boys sent to the camp are
there by court referral. The camp benefit not only the boys sent there but many
working people as well.
CLARENCE ADAMS,
Chairman, Fort Beiknap Community Council, Harlem, Mont.
Hon. RICHARD Nixox,
The President
The White House
Washington, D.C.:
The Kicking Horse Job Corps Center at Ronan, Montana is the only predomi-
nately Indian Center in the entire United States. Its closure will `be keenly felt in
Montana and `I would assume to the entire Indian groups throughout the country.
PAGENO="0079"
1511
If possible I would appreciate your reconsidering your decision as it affects
Kicking Horse and if it is at all possible to keep this center open because of. its
outstanding record and its impact on the training of the Indian youths which is
just beginning to be felt.
Respectfully yours,
Mi~ MANSFIELD,
Majority Leader, U.S. Senate.
U.S. SENATE,
OFFICE OF THE MAJORITY LEADER,
Washington, D.C., April 10, 1969.
The PRESIDENT,
The White House,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR MR. PRESIDENT: I was deeply disturbed to read in today~s newspapers,
April 10, that the Administration plans to close a large number of Job Corps camps
on very short notice. If these reports are accurate, and this is the only source of
information I have, the a~tion seems to have been taken without proper consulta-
tion with the Congress and the personnel in the field who are responsible for
adniinisiering the Job Corps camps.
Sudden closing of the three camps in my State has brought immediate pleas
from Anaconda, Hamilton, Ronan, aiTd other points in western Montana. This
sudden decision will spread disillusionment `among rOcruits whose training is
abruptly terminated and will be `a disappointment akd economic blow to thou-
sands of communities n'of only in . Montana but the entire Nation. These people
have worked hard to make camps in their area a success. What started out in
many instances `to be a rather difficult situation has developed into `a fine working
relationship between all concerned.
I urge that all three Montana Job Corps Camps be retained in any revision
which is adopted `as a result of the transfer of jurisdiction over the program. All
three, Anaconda, Trapper Creek, and Kicking Horse, are successful and vital
camps.
I share your concern that this and other poverty programs be efficient and
effective as possible. This can be done and must he done, but through a cooperative
effect on the part of all concerned. In the beginning I had serious reservati'ous
about certain aspects of the Job Corps program, but experience, refinements ~nd
still more changes have impressed me as to the value of this aspect of our war
on poverty.
I would `hope that `the A'dmi'aistration would delay any final decision on closing
Job Corps `camps until Congres1s has had `an opportunity to work with `the Admin-
istra'tlon. I share the view `expressed by many `of my colleagues expressing the
h~pe that some solution be developed which would `not abruptly terminate the
training `of those `already enrolled and send them back to their disadvantaged
environments. Such artion would be consintent `with your message of February 19
recommending a temporary extension of the anti-poverty program to give the
Administration and `Congress `an opportunity to conSider long range improvements
with "full debate and discussion."
Your personal consideration in this i'aatter will be sincerely `appreciated by t'he
people `of Montana and `all others concerned.
With `best personal wishes, I am
Respectfully yours,
MIKE MANSFIELD.
President RICHARD M. NIXON,
The White House,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR MR. PRESIDENT: I am sure that the decision to close a great number of
Job `Corps Conservation Centers was a most difficult one for you to make. I know
`that with only limited resources you must decide how these can best be used to
benefit our Nation's youth-All it's youth, white, black and red who are mired
in poverty and who look to you for an opportunity to escape into a better
America. I am not sure that you are aware that one of the Centers scheduled to
be closed, Kicking Horse in Montana, is a Center designed to serve Indian Youth.
It is the only one of its kind in the Nation. As such it serves not only its primary
purpose `of `helping young Indian `men to `t'a'ke their rightful place in society, but
also serves the Indian community through the work that is done to improve
PAGENO="0080"
1512
Indian lands. If this Center is closed, there will be only one Job Corps Conserva-
tion Center remaining which serves Indian People.
The Kicking Horse Center, although selected for closure, has a lower cost per
man-year than 25 Centers that will remain open. Its percentage of Category
I graduates exceed those of 22 Centers that will remain open. The average
length of stay of its Corpsmen exceeds that of 17 Centers that will remain open.
Surely Mr. President something can be done to preserve this Center.
As a recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor and an American Indian,
I have seen much of war and poverty. The face of each is ugly to look upon. I
urge you to do what you can to keep the ugly face of poverty from the Indian
Youth and the Indian People served by the Kicking Horse Job Corps Conserva-
tion Center in Montana.
Sincerely yours,
Col. EBNESr CHILDERS, Ret.
Washington, DJ7..
Mr. BELINDO. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman P~KINs. Let me thank you for an outstanding state-
ment.
You and I know that in the early days of the Job Corps, it was most
difficult to get recruits. And especially that was true among the Indian
population. You finally got the center into operation and experienced
difficulty in recruiting.
But have the Kicking Horse Center enrollees been mostly Indians?
Mr. BELINDO. Yes. I have a figure here that perhaps I failed to men-
tion with respect to the Kicking Horse Center. The Kicking Horse
Center has a capacity of 200 young men, with seven Indians in at-
tendance with four additional Indian Corpsmen on the way. So there
were 121 in attendance.
Chairman Pr~uxixs. Most of them were recruited after tremendous
difficulties?
Mr. BELINDO. That is correct.
Chairman PERKINS. It has showed the Indians a certain culture and
with certain traditions. After we have overcome this barrier and got
them into the Job Corps, to take this Job Corps away from them will
create a feeling among the Indians that the Government just doesn't
care.
Am I correct in that statement?
Mr. BELINDO. That is right. The American Indian has been sub-
jected to vacillating policies with respect to different administrations.
They have never had a really consistent Indian policy that deals with
the primary issues.
Chairman PERKINS. It is going to be most difficult now, isn't it?
In fact, we will lose all the experience that we have gained from the
Kicking Horse Center. At the same time, the Indians will refuse to be
enrolled in these so-called mini centers, because, as you have stated,
they have a tendency to reject the American mainstream. Is that cor-
rect?
Mr. BELIND0. That is correct.
Chairman PERKINS. If you want to dwell upon that a little, go ahead.
Mr. BELINDO. Their conception of the American mainstream, I
think, is one of competition. They see the dominant society's philos-
ophy as that of acquisition of material goods.
Chairman PERKINS. Before you get into that, I think the administra-
tion is proposing to close four Indian centers. Am I correct?
Mr. BELINDO. That is right. They are proposing to close four out of
five operated by BIA.
PAGENO="0081"
1513
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead.
Mr. Bi~INDo. With the one exception being in Washington.
Chairman PERKINS. Tell us why the American Indian rejects the
American mainstream.
Mr. BELINDO. I think it boils down probably to a difference in val-
ues. The Indian has been subjected to economic deprivation for so long,
but yet he has had a very close kinship system, a very close family tie
with members of his family and, of course, there is an extended family
relationship. So he has a well-knit communal base, even though ex-
ternally the reservation may not show outward manifestations of
progress in terms of the smokestack industries and the kinds of indus-
tries that will show income, although there is a trend now to attract
small, light industry to the reservation areas that would provide in-
come for families who have decided to stay on the reservation.
I think in this sense the Indian's attitude is more sophisticated be-
cause he has a view of the irrevocable harm that has been waged on
himself and his culture. The ghettos in the cities is `something that he
wants to avoid. He doesn't want to come into direct contact with that
way of life or that particular value system.
In this instance, I think an Indian just puts a premium on being
alive.
You have heard-and I know this is characterized many times-that
the Indian is close to nature, that he has a reverence for nature. He has
certain spiritual values that mean more than two-car garages or fur
coats or washing machines or large automobiles.
So this is, I think, one primary factor that enters into an Indian's
thinking when he thinks in terms of a city.
There are many, I thjnk, on Capitol Hill who believe that ghettos
do exist on reservations and that it would be hypocrisy to advocate a
program of self-determination for Indians if conditions are continued
to exist like they are. But that isn't entirely true. I think that is what
we call a "white frontiersman's" concept of land acquisition, in that
Indians don't know how to develop that land, "so let's move them off
the land."
But very few people fail to realize that that land is their home and
they have at one time owned 100 percent of the land, that 95 percent
is gone and they would like to keep at least 5 percent of the land left
for themselves. If they want to develop it, if they want to work with
the Federal Government in keeping Job Corps centers open that would
train their young Indian leadership in vocational education, they
should have that option to do that. They haven't had enough options,
really, to fulfill this abstraction of self-determination for themselves
as a people and as a community.
But I think that once we have an in-flow of programs like Job
Corps-and surely the programs extended by the Office of Economic
Opportunity, where the money is given directly to the tribes. They take
the money, and they make the decisions. Then, I think, they are just as
responsible and progressive as any other race of people here in the
United States.
So I would make a strong pit'ch for programs like the Job C'orps, to
keep them operating. These are relatively new programs to them. They
~may not be new to perhaps the urban dweller or to the cave dwellers
who live `in `the cities.
27-754-69-pt. 3-6
PAGENO="0082"
1514
We think that conservation and forestry and wildlife is irrelevant
to industrial life. But they see it as an opportunity, a chance, a chance
to become the kind of people that they would like to be.
They, I am sure, suffer psychologically from the fact that they are
second-class citizens. I don't like to see this. I think this can destroy
any people. But if we give them some promise and some hope for the
future and then dramatically remove that promise away from them,
then, of course, they have nobody to look to.
Chairman PERKINS. I want to compliment you for coming here and
testifying in behalf of the Indians today.
Mr. Buckley?
Mr. BUCKLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Belindo. the Labor Department figures point out the difficulty
that apparently exists in recruiting eligible Indian use for the Job
Corps centers. Do you agree that this is true?
Mr. BELINDO. You say they have difficulty in recruiting enrollees for
these Job Corps centers with respect to `the four that are mentioned?
Mr. BUCKLEY. With respect to all five. How many are qualified or
are eligible, would you estimate, for the areas that are served by the
five Indian Job Corps conservation centers?
Mr. BELINDO. I would make a rough estimate of 400. I would like to
be. precise about that. figure..
Mr. BUCKLEY. Could you furnish that for the record?
Mr. BELINDO. Yes.
(The information to be. supplied follows:)
NATIONAL CONGRESS OF AMERICAN INDIANS,
Washington, D.C., May 5, 1969.
Hon. CARL D. PERKINS,
Chairman, House Committee on Education and Labor,
Washington., D.C.
DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: At the request of the committee as a result of the
question posed to me during my testimony on April 30, 1969, with respect to the
Indian Support for Job Corps Centers at San Carlos (Apache Reservation),
Arizona and Eight Canyon (Mescalero-Apache Reservation), New Mexico, I
submit the following and ask that it be added to my statement for the record.
The Job Corps Conservation Center provided two unique benefits in the area
it serves, neither of which is provided by the urban mini-center: first, for its
corpsmen, it provides a remedial educational program. For those attending it,
in addition to vocational training, room and board. Both San Carlos and Eight
Canyon did an adequate job (compared with centers that survive) of training
corpsmen, 189 at San Carlos and 193 at Eight Canyon, although they were not
serving a large number of Indian children. Thus, while the arguments we would
make in support of the Job Corps program in general apply to these centers, too,
the special Indian ease is not, as to these centers in terms of the corpsmen.
The second benefit is in terms of jobs, economic benefits and public works in
the area served by `the center. This is where the special case for San Carlos and
Eight Canyon lies. Both of these centers are on Indian reservations, in high
poverty areas. In my original statement I pointed out that;
"The San Carlos Center is located in a county which has a population of 41,000,
and a median family income of $1,280 annually, with an average unemployment
rate of 74%. The annual Job Corps expenditure in the area is $1,724,442. For
the people of this region, the closing of the Job Corps Center is an economic
disaster."
Eight Canyon is located in a county where the situation is only slightly
better than that at San Carlos, located in Otero County, New Mexico, the County
has a population of 14,000 people, having a median family income of $2,160 and
an average unemployment rate of 59%. The annual Job Corps expenditure in the
area annually has been $1,023,804. Calculate the impact of removing this ex-
penditure from the area.
PAGENO="0083"
1515
The conservation work program accomplishments at Eight Canyon alone had
totalled $502,998. Given these economic conditions, this is not the time to remove
Federal money from these hard-pressed Indian reservations on some nebulous
promise of future industrial development. These people need help NOW. Closing
the Job Corps Center deprives the area of one of its chief sources of livelihood.
Thai and not the racial composition of the student body, is our point.
Thank you for allowing me to add to my remarks.
Respectfully,
JoHN BELINDO,
Eceecutive Director, NUAI.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Would you read what the total strength is of the
other four Job Corps centers and what figures you have as to how
many of them were Indians?
Mr. BELINDO. All right. I think I have that summarized. We will
just have to tell you of the statistics we have with these four centers
and turn it into this committee.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Could I read you the figures that the Labor Depart-
ment has?
Mr. BELINDO. All right.
Mr. BUCKLEY. If you quarrel with them or disagree with them, I
would appreciate your comment~s.
The Eight Canyon Center has a strength or slots for 123 corpsmen,
and in April of this year only five were Ii~dians.
The San Carlos Center has availability for 153 corpsmen, and there
were 17 Indians in April.
The Winslow Job Corps Center, 158 strength, and only eight were
Indians.
The Fort Simco Center, availability is for 207 corpsmen, and only
five were Indians.
If these figures are reasonably accurate, it indicates that a very
small percentage of the corpsmen at the centers are Indians. What
would be your explanation for this situation?
Mr. BELINDO. I believe the Eight Canyon Center and the San Carlos
and the Winslow Center are located adjacent to reservations and, in
some cases, right on reservations. But they are not predominantly Job
Corps centers serving the Indian people. These statistics surely point
up a recruitment problem.
I would like to check our facts and figures and compare them with
what the Department of Labor has released.
Chairman PERKINS. You will have the opportunity, and send any
supplemental statement for the record.
Mr. BUCKLEY. One would get the impression from the fact that
four of the five Indian centers are being closed that this would seem
to be inequitable. But the total Indians affected by these closings is
151, and of the 151, 116, which is close to the figures you furnished, are
Kicking Horse, and arrangements are being made to accommodate
these enrollees at a center neai~by which is not being closed.
Mr. BELINDO. Where would that center be? In Montana? You are
speaking of the Kicking Horse Center?
Mr. BUCKLEY. Yes.
Mr BELTUNDO Kicking Horse, ~ts I said before, is a predominantly
Indian center. We would like to give that top priority.
I can't go into the psychology of Indian young people clustering
together and feeling a closeness if they are within a well-knit group.
This means a lot to them. As I said before, the Job Corps program
PAGENO="0084"
1516
was relatively new, and maybe if we get some information from the
Lou Harris survey or from the Lou Harris poii as to the reasons why
these Job Corps centers are having problems in recruiting young In-
than people-I am sure if the programs stay closer to the reservations,
more Indian young people could be recruited for these programs.
Mr. BUCKLEY. We have visited some Tildian reservations in the
committee evaluations, `Mr. Ohairman, and I think few would disagree
that the American Indians have a great need for poverty-type pro-
grams and very likely have not received an equitable share of these
programs across the board.
Chairman PERKINS. Are there any further questions?
Let me thank you for an excellent appearance.
Mr. BELINDO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. Without objection, I have a statement from
Congressman John Tunney, a-nd also a statement from the county
school superintendent of Placerville, Calif., El Dorado County. With-
out objection, you can look at these statements, and they will be in-
serted in the record.
(The documents referred to follow:)
OFFICE OF EDUCATION,
Placerville, Calif., April 25, 1969.
Representative CARL PERKINS,
House of Representatives Office Building,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR CONGRESSMAN PERKINS: Enclosed is a COPY of a letter that I recently
sent to President Nixon relative to the possible closing of the Sly Park Job Corps
Center in our area.
We very much appreciate the strong opposition you have taken to the closing
of the Job Corps Centers, and earnestly hope that you will continue your fight.
Sincerely,
HANS A. MATE,
County Superintendent.
OFFICE OF EDUCATION,
Placerville, Calif., April 24, 1969.
President RICHARD M. NIXON,
White House,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR PRESIDENT NIxoN: I am writing this letter as chairman of the El Dorado
County Community Relations Council for the Sly Park Job Corps Center in
Pollock Pines, California. I am -also the County Superintendent of Schools for
El Dorado County.
May I first say that I am truly appalled at your decision to close one of the
finest programs for the rehabilitation of many young people in our Nation,
namely our Job Corps Centers. I am confident that numerous letters have come
to your attention recently supporting this position. As one who has worked very
closely for over two years with the corpsman and staff, I have been able to see
firsthand the remarkable adjustment, productivity, and change in the entire
mental structure of these people. When you realize that these young men have
all come from extreme poverty, with very littie hope for the future, and suddenly
such changes are wrought intheir lives, it -is difficult to conceive that because of
a change in administration, such outstanding work shall come to a sudden end.
It is the opinion and judgment of many citizens that the rehabilitation possi-
bilities for these and thousands of others should not be decided at the whim of
any particular administration. Give the ` e~ing men a chance!
The alternate plans that we are readin ut that are -being suggested by your
administration will in no manner corre e disillusionment and disgust that
these young men now feel. Within the past few days, I have met with several of
these people, and I have never before -seen such disappointment in the eyes of
youth. These human beings deserve better treatment.
PAGENO="0085"
1517
I should also like to point out that they will be returning to the ghetto areas
in. their various communities at the beginning of a long, hc~t hummer-ready for
anything. I appeal to you to at least delay any action as to the closing of any of
the Job Corps Centers, especially our Sly Park facility. I am enclosing some
factual background material for your information, and would be most willing
to offer any, other substantiating statistics if requested.
`I have followed your career since your first successful campaign against Repro-
seiitative Jerry V'oorhees, and was privileged to hear on of your earliest political
speeches before a joint luncheon meeting of all the service clubs in El Monte,
California. 1 have supported you `completely throughout these years; I have
admired your courage and your philosophy. I hope that you will speak for these
young people who, because of lack of economic and social status, cannot speak
for themselves. Please reconsider your action.
Sincerely,
HANS A. MAYR,
County $uperintendent.
EL DORADO COUNTY COMMITTEE TO PRESERVE SLY PARK JOB Cone CENTER
APRIL 21, 1969.
To: El Dorado County Community Organizations and Members.
A recent Executive Order .through the Secretary of Labor states 53 Job Corps
Centers will be `closed by July 1, 1969. Some of the reasons given for the closure
are cost of training Corpsmen, ineffectiveness of placement and better training
through other programs. `If these statements were correct, there may be reason
for closure, but a close look at one `of `the Centers to `be closed presents a different
picture.
First is the cost of training. Cests per year at Sly Park Job Corps Center are
just over $5,500 per trainee-not the $8,000 stated by the Secretary of Labor. Even
more important facts be hasn't stated are the returns. A Corpsman stays five and
on&baif months so his `actual cost is $2,530. During this time, his work experiences
will add $1,000 added value to the Forest. As a result of his training at the
Center, `he will go to work earning $1.87 per hour. Within `three years he has
paid back to the Government in income taxes more than the cost of his training.
Sly Park Job Corps Center has bad very good success placing its trainees. Of
the 468 Corpsmen that were at Sly Park between July, 1967 and December, 1968,
367 were placed, which is just under 80 percent-a figure far removed from the
one given by the Secretary of Labor.
Sly Park Job Corps Center is `a useful member of the communities of Pollock
Pines and Placerville. This is not only good business, but in keeping with the
philosophy of Job Corps-"To make the trainees more employable and useful
citizen's in their community." Corpsmen at Sly Park have volunteered 1,794 hours
of labor to such projects as Head Start, summer camp counselors, improving school
track facilities, and cleaning local parks and picnic grounds. Their work has
added $29,700 in increased value to the community. This is a far cry from the cost
of $5,000 per year to keep young men incarcerated, or over $1,140 per year to
keep a young man on welfare.
The statement a'bout the other types of training available is ra'ther misleading.
In fact, the statement simply isn't true. The Secretary's statement that there
would be 22,000 in training rather than 32,000 now at the Centers ne~ds clarifica-
tion. `The `closure of the 53 `Centers moan's 17,400 young men and women between
16 `and 22 currently in t'he `Centers would go `back to the streets. The so-called
"mini centers" proposed aren't there and won't be for some time to come. These
people had `been promised trkining and were receiving it.
Now it is being taken away and it will be very hard to `recruit `these people into
another program a year from now. All one ha's to do is take a leok at the day
center presently in operation in Baltimore to get some idea of the probable suc-
cesses of the "mini center" concept.
If cost of transportation `to and from the Centers is important and if having
the training near the source of manpower is necessary, why was Sly Park chosen
to be closed and the Centers in eastern Washington chosen to remain open? Sly
Park not only is closer to the people needing the training, but is also closer to
recreation facilities and sources of supply-two very expensive costs in Center
operation. One begins to wonder at the real reasons behind the choosing of
Centers to be closed.
PAGENO="0086"
1518
The Administration is moving very rapidly to close these Centers before you
or congress can react to what must be considered a very unwise decision con-
cerning all of society. You must make your feelings known to the President
before April 26th. He will listen to you; you elected him. Write to President
Richard M. Nixon, White House, Washington, D.C.
Further information is available at the El Dorado County Chamber of Com-
merce office located at 542 Main Street in Placerville, or contact Gordon Blair
through the Chamber office.
A concerned citizen,
GoRDoN BLAIR, Chairman.
BRUCE CRAWFORD.
Jo GRAY.
RAY LAWYER.
HANS MAYR.
JOHN WEThMAN.
El Dorado Coi~nty Committee to Preserve Sly Park Job Corps Center.
SLYPARK 0.0.0.,
Poflock Pines, Calif., April 10, 1969.
Hon. Mr. JoHNSoN.
We the undersigned corpsmen of Sly Park JCCC plead that you reconsider
the closing of a big portion of the Job Corps Centers.
For the most of us (corpsmen) Job Corps is just about the only chance for-
getting decent vocational or educational training to help us in the future in the
nation and world of ours.
Please don't let us down as we have been let down in the past. What are we
to do? Perhaps, back to poverty life. Please don't take our only chance for the
future in this world of ours. Please don't ignore this plea.
APRIL 14. lP6it
Hon. HAROLD "BIZZ" JOHNSON,
House of Representatives
Washington, D.C.
D~&n MR. JOHNSON: Following is the list of accomplishments of Sly Park Civil-
ian Conservation Center:
Training costs per Corpsman man year are currently $5550.
Returned value to the Forest-$868,100.
Increased value to the community outside the Forest-$29,700 and 1794
man hours.
Corpsmen placed-From July 1967 through December 1968, 468 trainees-
have passed through our Center. 367 were placed either on jobs, in the mili-
tary or schools, or in Centers for advanced training. Less than 22% or 101
trainees, were not placed. In this category are the AWOL discharges andl
disciplinary separations.
The academic improvement to Corpsmen is roughly two (2) academic-
school years growth in reading and one (1) year in math. Average length'
of stay per trainee is 51/2 months.
Sincerely yours,
Wna~r&~r 0. COTTER,
Center Director.
THE AVERAGE JOB CORPSMAN ENTERS SLY PARK WITH THESE CHARACTERISTICS
Age: The age requirements are from 16 years to 22 years old. Average age is-
171/2 years. Many Corpsmen are from broken homes and are school drop-outs.
WI, ere tli ey'rc from.: Mostly from California-Hunter's Point, Filmore Dis-
trict of San Francisco. Oakland; Watts District of Los Angeles; Fresno and
Imperial Valley.
Education-: The average is the low 3rd. grade level. Some can't read or write.
Some can't speak any or reasonable English.
Physical condition: These Corpsmen have bad teeth, poor eye/hand coordina-
tion, poor physical development.
~ocie(: A few Corpsmen have arrest records. most of these are on probation.
Outlook: Grim-no training and none available.
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THEfAVERAGE JOB CORPSMAN LEAVES SLY PARK WITH THESE CHARACTERISTERICS
Placement: Placement is through the local Employment Service Office. Sly
Park sends a resume of Oorpsman's qualification. D.O.T. Rating is 80% success-
fuL (D.O.P.~Dictionary of Occupational Titles)
Wages: Former Corpsmen earn from $1.87 per hour (Program Completers) to
$1.48 per hour (From 0 to 3 months in Program).
Outlook: 80% of former Corpsmen are working. They have developed new
skills, good working habits any many are off probation and on to a new start in
life.
Education: The Corpsman has gained 2 years in reading and 1 year in math.
He has developed handwriting skills, World of Work, knowledge of Income
Taxes,, and job interviews.
Physical condition: The Corpsman has gained about 20 lbs. His coordiination
and self-confidence have improved. He has developed good leisure time habits
and hobbies.
Total annual budget-$641,980
Local purchase, clothing $13. 854
Special clothing 3, 306
Food purchases 16, 514
Doctor's fees 6, 723
Dental fees 13, 392
Hospital and laboratory 7, 770
Medical supplies and prescriptions - 3, 676
Maintenance supplies and services 20,004
Communications-telephone and teletype 11, 5136
Utilities 13, 0134
Office supplies 5, 428
Kitchen supplies-nonfood 6, 380
Miscellaneous supplies and services 8,330
Work project supplies 61, 704
Gasoline and diesel fuels 3, 025
Staff salaries (55 percent of total budget) 358, (382
Total (86 percent of total budget) 553, 423
Additional local expenditures:
Corpsman Greyhound tickets (not out of operating funds) 8,494
Non-expendable property 14, 006
Supervisor's program support (00 percent salary) 24, 0413
46, 540
N0TE.-38 staff working at Sly Park, average of 2 children per family.
STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN V. TUNNEY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank you and the members of this subcommittee
for giving me the opportunity to testify on the decision to curtail the Job Corps
program.
My primary concern is that the Job Corps centers are being closed without
consultation with the Congress and before this subcommittee and its Senate
counterpart conclude hearings and make recommendations.
The Congress in 1064 enacted legislation creating the Job Corps, as well as
other programs designed to alleviate the vicious cycle of poverty. The Job Corps
has not been without its difficulties. However, it is my belief that the program has
improved with experience. We must never forget that the Job Corps was orig-
inally designed to deal with one of the most complex problems we have-hard-
core unemployment. The implementation of such a program is not easy-the
alternative-inaction-will only sow the seeds of despair.
The hard-core unemployed lack even a basic education. The manpower report
of the President recently said,
"Many of the country's most underprivileged youth must be removed from
their home environment and be given training and other help in new surround-
ings to make the transition to a productive life. This is the mission of the Job
Corps-the only major residential program serving youth who have dropped out
PAGENO="0088"
1520
of school, who have the fewest educational and vocational skills and who require
`the most intensive remediation. The techniques, curriculums, and research find-
ings developed by the Job Corps are significant also for their contribution to
knowledge of the institutional changes and new approaches needed in working
with the disadvantaged."
The jobs that these young people do periodically acquire are "dead-end" jobs,
which offer no hope for the future. Many of these young people are "immigrants"
from rural areas who come to the city in the hope of a better future. They find
instead a harsher poverty since they are not equipped for gainful employment in
their new environment.
The project labor force for 1975 between the ages of 16 and 24 is 21 million.
This is an increase of 5.5 million between 1965 and 1975 or 34.5 percent.
The number for 1968 was 18.2 million or almost one out of every four persons in
the labor force. The competition for available positions in tremendous. Those who
fall by the wayside for lack of education and training are left to the ravages
of the streets.
It is the young people that have the highest rate of unemployment-iS percent.
The 1.1 million unemployed youth represent one-third of the jobless. Of the 26
million young people who enter the labor force in the decade of the 1960's, an
estimated 2~ percent will not have comp1eted high school. These will become
alienated and hard-core unemployed, most of whom will drift from job to job
and some of w-hom will pass to delinquency and crime.
When this occurs, the cost to our society in both economic and human re-
sources is phenomenal. The price, of vocational education is slight when com-
pared to the tremendous cost of delinquency and crime. Vocational education
programs such as the Job Corns create taxpayers, while doing nothing pro-
duces tax users. A young person who goes from alienation in the ranks of the
unemployed to delinquency to adult crime will drain our Nation's resources
for the rest of his life. Expenditures on rehabilitation are short term. The
average annual cost of juvenile and adult corrections and detention facilities
is $321 million and ~509 million, respectively.
The Commission on Law Enforcement and Administration of Justice has said:
`Other Federal programs of greater scope work against delinquency and
crime by improving education and employment prospects for the poor and
attacking slum conditions, associated with crime. Such work and job training
programs as the Neighborhood Youth Corps, the Job Corps, the youth oppor-
tunity centers and Manpower Development and Training Act programs provide
training, counseling, and work opportunities essential to break the pattern of
unemployability that underlies so much of crime today."
As this subcommittee knows, ever Job Corps center in California has been
closed. There is every indication that little thought was given to alternatives
for present and ftture enrollees. Many of the camps that were closed were
showing steady progress in job placements. The abrupt closure of these camps
w-ill have the effect of returning enrollees back to the streets of their corn-
niunities-ill-prepared to find gainful employment.
At this time I would like to address myself briefly to closure of two job corps
conservation centers in my district, Oak Glen and Los Pinos.
Oak Glen is a State-related center administered by the Division of Forestry
of the State of California. If Oak Glen is closed, only two State-related centers
will remain.
During calendar year 1968, Oak Glen's activities included the following man-
hours of vocational training.
Conservation projects 10, 782
Automotive repair 1,435
Painting 234
Cooking 1,819
Heavy equipment operations 1,159
Warehousing 325
Laundry 788
Carpentry 1,513
Clerical 797
Building maintenance 1, 423
During the first six months of fiscal year 1969, Oak Glen Job Corpsmen spent
4,000 man-days in forest fire suppression. In addition they spent 101 man-days
on special on-the-job training at the California Division of Forestry Fire
Stations.
PAGENO="0089"
1521
During February and March of 1968, Oak Glen Corpsmen spent an estimated
2,500 man-days in emergency flood control and disaster relief duties in :S011th~1
California.
In fiscal year 1068, Oak Glen Job Corpsmen spent a total of 29,636 man-hours
fighting 39 forest fires. `In addition, during that period, Oak Glen Job Corpsmen
devoted 11,578 man-days to conservation activities such as forestry facilities,
insect control, hazard reduction, truck trails, etc. Another 865 Corpsmen days
were spent on special assignments to on-the-job training as firemen, in a fire
station with professional firemen in all facets of a fireman's job.
Oak Glen has a capacity for 170 young people. The value of goods and services
generated for the local community is about $1,100,000 and the value of the work
projects is estimated at $210,000. For the first half of fiscal year 1969, Oak Glen
has a placement rate of 66.3%. The Western Regional OEO has informed me
that the estimate through February of 1960 is closer to 83%.
Los Pinos Job Corps Center was activated in July of 1965 for a corpsman
capacity of 224. The center offers skills training in occupations similar to those
listed for Oak Glen, and graduates of these programs have qualified for higher
level employment. The job placement rate for fiscal year 1969 has been 66%.
This center has operated at a per-corpsman man-year cost of $4,332, one of
the lowest in the nation.
The, value of work projects planned and completed by corpsmen from incep-~
tion to date amounts to $783,949. Center construction and facilities costs total
$1,046,143 and equipment costs amount to $322,331 for a total investment of
$1,368,474. Many of these projects are related to developing the recreational
and natural resources of the southern `California area. The center and the sur-
rounding community have developed an excellent cooperative relationship. Each
spring and summer Los `Pines corpsmen are committed to flood control and
forest fire suppression as `these emergencies arise. Numerous expressions of
thanks have `been voiced 1y local citizens for these effort's. In addition to those
aids, the annual Job Corps expenditure in the `nearby community amounts to
$1,160,887.
Geographically, this center is ideally located. It is within commuting distance
of several major metropolitan areas. T'his provides for recreational, cultural and
social interests so necessary for young men.
The average length of stay for Los Pinos is 5.3 months and for Oak Glen 5.2
months. The length of stay must of course, be lengthened considerably.
The Job Corps centers in California which are slated for closure have 3163
enrollees and in fiscal year 1968 generated $22,518,848 in goods and service in
the State.
Since the inception of the Job Corps t'o the present time, 21,798 young people
have been enrolled. 13,169 of these have been placed in jobs, schools or the
military.
The average wage received by corpsmen returning to the employment market
in California has been $1.94 per hour in 11,222 jobs.
Mr. Chairman, it is my belief that the information which I have received
justifies the continuation of both Oak Glen and Los Pinos. It also appears that
many of the other centers slated for closure are productive and should be
continued.
Louis Harris has conducted an extensive study of the Job Corps program
and his testimony before this subcommittee and his survey are certainly worthy
of serious consideration.
The Department of Labor has stated that they intend to transfer enrollees
to other camps or to regular employment services for job placement. However,
there are not sufficient Job Corps centers remaining for transfer. Those that do
remain are geographically distant fom the centers being cl'osed. 80 percent of
the Job Corps enrollees in the western region come from California `and Arizona.
Only one, Job Corps center has been kept open in these two States.
The western regional office of OEO has indicated that there are not sufficient
slots open through the California Department of Employment. In any event,
the Job Corps was established due to the inability of regular employment services
to reach these hard-core unemployed youth. There is little to indicate that time
has changed the situations significantly.
Mr. Chairman, I feel that it would be appropriate to conclude my statement
with some further quotes from the Manpower Report of the President prepared
by the Department of Labor and transmitted to Congress in January of 1909
regarding the Job Corps.
PAGENO="0090"
1522
"Direct operating costs have been reduced: enrollee man-year costs were $8,470
in fiscal 1966 and $6,725 in fiscal 1968 * *
`The more current figure is below the, statutory limitation of $6,900. Estimated
cost for fiscal 1969 is $6,300.
"About 7 out of every 10 former corps members are constructively occupied-
in jobs (79 percent) in school (10 percent) or in armed forces (11 percent)
according to a June 1908 follow-up study of a sample of the 161,000 youth who
had left the corps 6, 12, and 18 months before.
"* * * to date, 7,000 corps members have passed the high school equivalency
examinations."
"Average earnings are substantially higher after than before Job Corps enroll-
ment, according to the same follow-up survey.
"Some benefit-cost analysis of the program has also been made for the Job
Corps, indicating that benefits significantly exceed cost. Studies show ratios
ranging from 2 to 1 to 5 to 1 *
A 1968 report showed the "economic cost (basic or training cost minus appraised
value of work projects and transfer payments plus foregone earnings) is esti-
mated at $3,991, economic or social cost at $3,613, and lifetime gain (net 3
percent compound discount figured at 47 years) at $18,075.
Mr. Chairman, I believe that this manpower report, the report of the Commis-
sion on Law Enforcement and the Administration of Justice, the Louis Harris
survey couple with figures from the centers themselves, clearly are sufficient
to raise serious questions about the decision to abruptly close these Job Corps
centers.
It is my hope that the administration will delay any final decision on these
Job Corps camps until the Congress has had an opportunity to study the program
and make recommendations. A precipitous decision to close these camps will
send thousands of disillusioned young people back into the streets of their
communities. This is not in the best interest of economy or humanity.
STATEMENT BY JOHN L. HALL, ASSISTANT ExEcuTIvE DIRECTOR, THE WILunRNESS
SoCIETY
Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am John L. Hall, an Assistant
Executive Director of The Wilderness Society, a national conservation organiza-
tion based in Washington, D.C. and having a membership of approximately 50,000.
The Society is dedicated to the preservation of wilderness in this nation and
throughout the world, and is concerned also about the quality of our environment
and our nation's human resources.
As a professional forester with over 16 years' experience with the Ti. S. Forest
Service, I have had an opportunity to become well acquainted with the accomplish-
ments of the Civilian Conservation Corps program of the mid- and late `thirties.
In addition, from 1965 to 1967, I was involved in the planning and administration
of Forest Service Job Corps Conservation Centers in its ~orthern Rocky Mountain
Region and in its 20-state Eastern Region. Though not directly involved in the
administration of any of these Centers, I am well acquainted with their opera-
tional concepts. I had close contact with the Forest Service people who were
developing and administering the conservation and education programs, and I
have played an active role in the recruiting and training of personnel for the
Forest Service Job Corps Conservation Program. The 20-state Eastern Region
administered 13 Job Corps Conservation C~enters.
I mention my service and experience with the Job Corps because of The
Wilderness Society's great concern about the proposed closing of 59 Job Corps
Centers. We feel that these Centers have contributed a tremendous amount to
the education and character of disadvantaged youth. We strongly recommend
that intensive study of this program be made before there is a wholesale closing
of the Job Corps Centers.
We are concerned about the opportunities to help young people that will be
wasted because of the termination of this program. We say wasted opportunities
because the youth here receive a broad education-not only training in reading,
writing and arithmetic but also basic occupational skills, high quality work
habits, and conservation education. We feel that youths taken from our cities
and put in the environment of a Conservation Center benefit greatly from contact
with the land. This involvement in conservation work in an outdoor environment
is invaluable in the character-building and development of these youths into
responsible, productive, tax-paying citizens.
PAGENO="0091"
1523
The National Wildlife Federation recently sponsored a random national sur-
i-ey that asked people what type of environment they would prefer to live in.
This survey showed that over 30 percent of the people interviewed would prefer
to live in a rural environment and that twenty-five percent would prefer a
small town environment. Over half of these people would like to live in a rural
or small town area. This survey is quite significant in pointing out the need for
and value of Open space and the out-of-doors. This is one of the many reasons
that The Wilderness Society supports the Job Corps Conservation Center con-
cept. The youth enrolled in this program can gain much insight from this
experience in an outdoor environment, and it affords them stimulus to develop
a conservation conscience and an awareness and concern for a quality
environment.
There is another reason why we feel that Job Corps Conservation Centers,
particularly those administered by the Forest Service, are important to our
national economy and to balanced resource management. This is related to the
national timber supply.
Recently we have heard there is a shortage of quality saw timber for lumber
and plywood, and that the national forest old growth saw timber should be cut
in 15 years rather than on a sustained yield, multiple-use concept of 80 years.
We have objected to this blanket. proposal. The following facts should be con-
sidered in the assessment of our present and future timber demands and supply:
The Forest Service, in its most recent survey statistics for our Nation,
reports that one out of every five acres of the nation's commercial forest land,
or 22 percent, is classed as non-stocked or poorly stocked forest land. This
means that this land is out of production as far as quality future saw timber
or pulp timber is concerned. Mr. Chairman, this 22 percent represents 112 mil-
lion acres `of our commercial forest land that is out of production. There is an
urgent need for creative and intensive forest management of this land in the
form of site preparation, `seeding, and planting. This 112 million acres, repre-
sents an area equal to California, New Hampshire, and Vermont, some 5 percent
of the total area of the United States.
In `this 112 million acres of non-stocked or poorly stocked land, 36 million
acres have no trees of potential commercial value; thus, 36 million acres, an
area the size of Michigan or the size of New York and Vermont, is in need of
intensive forestry. This land is owned or managed by all classes of owners-
the small private owner, the tim'ber industry, and the county, state and federal
land management agencies.
We feel that the Job Corps Conservation Centers operated by the resource
management agenci'es of our federal government are in an excellent position to
supply the labor force to assist not only the federal government but also the
timber industry and the private landowners in getting these 112 million acres
ba'ck into timber production. We believe it `is important and appropriate th'at
these centers `are located in the national forests and that they are in a position
to provide the skills, technical forestry, and the manpower to get this planting
and intensive reforestation program underway~
The time for `such action is now because indications are that th'e presen't
softwood sawlog shortage which the timber industry talks about is just a fore-
runner of future timber shortages resulting from the spiraling demands on our
nation's timber resource. We feel th~t these Job Corps Conservation Centers can
assist in getting this valuable forest land back into production, as well as
working on `other important resource projects.
By way of `contrast, only 3 percent of our nation's `commercial forest land is
in the national parks and `wilderness areas, compared to the 22 percent of the
nation's coinmerical forest land that `has been `allowed to go out of production.
Without an intensive study by the Administration an'd by the Congress, the
59 Job Corps Oenters should `not be closed down. There is an investment of 65
million `dollars in the physical properties `of these centers. There is `also a great
investment in the resource an'd educational personnel who have been employed in
these centers. These are dedicated people, who are willing to devote `their lives
to thi's work with J'ob Corps youth. The program should not be altered or cut
bnek in any way without a thorough review of the possible impact that closing
of these centers will have on the present personnel of the `program, `as well as on
the disadvantaged youth who see in the Job Corps program an opportunity to
develop themselves into productive, responsibile citizens.
We recognize that there have been mistakes made in the `location and some-
times in the administration `of these centers. The centers built in Mammoth
PAGENO="0092"
1524
Gave and Great Smoky Mountain National Parks, for example, were poorly
located. We also recognize the need for more urban-type, intensive centers which
are geared to training in the industrial and mechanical skills needed by present-
day industry. Conservation Centers should supplement these centers as a neces-
sary and vital part of our education program for youth.
We recommend and strongly support an intensive study of the Job Corps Con-
servation Centers Program and the need for its expansion. We strongly object
to the wholesale closing of the existing 59 Job Corps Centers without full
investigation of the merits of these centers.
We appreciate this opportunity to testify on this matter.
[Night Letter]
APRIL 16, 1969.
President RIcHAJSD M. Nixox,
The White House,
Washington, D.C.:
We urge you to reconsider the decision to reduce funds for the Office of Eco-
nomic Opportunity, which would cause the closing of 60 per cent of the Job
Corps Conservation Centers. These times are critical in the life of young people.
The Conservation Centers are preparing youth for intelligent citizenship, and
thus more responsible adulthood, by attuning them to the great resources of the
nation through practical endeavors. These Centers have been successful. Their
fine work should not be diminished by a major reduction in the program.
STEWART M. BRANDBORG,
Ewecntive Director, the Wilderness Society.
Chairman PERKINS. The committee will adjourn until 9:30 a.m.
tomorrow.
(Whereupon, at 1:15 p.m., the task force recessed, to reconvene at.
9 :30 a.m., Thursday, May 1, 1969.)
PAGENO="0093"
ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY AMENDMENTS OF 1969
THURSDAY, MAY 1, 1969
HotrsE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
TASK FORCE ON POVERTY OF THE
COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR,
Washington, D.C.
The committee met at 9 :45, pursuant to recess, in room 2175, Ray-
burn House Office Building, Hon. Carl D. Perkins (chairman of the
committee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Perkins, Green, Ford, Hathaway, Mink,
Clay, Ayres, Quie, Scherle, Dellenback, Esch, Steiger, Collins, Land-
grebe, and Hansen.
Staff members present: H. D. Reed, Jr., general counsel; William
F. Gaul, associate general counsel; Robert E. McCord, chief clerk and
senior specialist; Charles W. Radcliffe, minority counsel for educa-
tion; and John Buckley, chief minority investigator.
Chairman PERKINS. The committee will come to order. Mr. Hansen
is here and a quorum is present.
I urn delighted to welcome the League of Women Voters today. We
are presently conducting hearings on the extension of the Economic
Opport~unity Act, or the so-called poverty legislation.
I want to tell you that there has always been some controversy cen-
tering around this legislation and I am just as delighted as I can be
to welcome the League of Women Voters. We have a panel scheduled
this morning to testify as our first witnesses.
I take this opportunity to introduce the ranking minority member
of this committee, and a great member of this committee, Congressman
Bill Ayres from the great State of Ohio.
BiIH
Mr. AYIu~S. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I apologize, ladies, for being late but I am preparing my remarks
to meet with my League of Women Voters out home tomorrow. So
you can appreciate how important that is. But we do welcome you to
Washington and I know the chairman has greeted you properly as he
always does.
Chairman PERKINS. Come around, Mrs. Benson, president of the
League of Women Voters. We are delighted to welcome you before
this committee again. Bring around your entire panel and introduce
them.
(1525)
PAGENO="0094"
1526
STATEMENT OP MRS. BRUCE BENSON, PRESIDENT, LEAGUE OP
WOMEN VOTERS; ACCOMPANIED BY MRS. (if. R. NUGENT, PRESI-
DENT, LEAGUE OP WOMEN VOTERS OP WEST VIRGINIA; MRS.
MERLYN E. RICHARDSON, PRESIDENT, LEAGUE OP WOMEN
VOTERS OP GEORGIA; MRS. ROBERT WARREN, PRESIDENT,
LEAUGE OP WOMEN VOTERS OP OHIO; AND MRS. D. R. WATER-
MAN, PRESIDENT, LEAGUE OP WOMEN VOTERS OP IOWA
Chairman PERKINS. Naturally, I Imow you have prepared state-
ments. WTithout objection, your prepared statements will all be in-
serted in the record and we want you to proceed, Mrs. Benson, and all
of your panel in the manner that you prefer.
(The prepared statement referred to follows:)
PREPARED STATEMENT OF MRS. MERLYN E. RICHARDSON, PAST PRESIDENT, LEAGUE
OF WOMEN VOTERS OF GEORGIA, ON CONTINUATION OF PROGRAMS AUTHORIZED
UNDER THE ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY ACT OF 1964 (H.R. 513)
I am Mrs. Merlyn E. Richardson of Decatur, Georgia, immediate past president
of the League of Women Voters of Georgia. Although Georgia does now have a
growing economy, she ranks seventh among `the states in the number of poor.
An estimated 39 percent of the state's population is in the poverty bracket. Most
of Georgia's poor live outside urban areas. Although expenditures per pupil
on education have increased, the 1966-67 figure was $408, still below the national
average.
OEO programs operate in 134 of the 159 countries of Georgia. There are 25
Community Action Agencies, 18 primarily rural and seven basically urban. From
late 1964 through December 31, 1969, a total of $111,738,391 in OEO funds has
been granted to Georgia with $68,292,660 of that allocated to CAP programs.
including Head Start. In 1968, the full year Head Start programs served ap-
proximately 3,200 children in 24 counties of Georgia and the Summer Head Start,
about 17,500 children in 75 counties. There are emergency food and medical pro-
grams operating in 48 Georgia counties. Community Action Agencies operate
commodity food distribution programs in 46 counties. This food in many cases is
followed up by home management aides to teach the people how to use it, as well
as by consumer education, homemaker training, etc. Many more of these aides
could be used, if money allowed. The VISTA program has been most helpful-94
volunteers are now working in Georgia, helping to introduce the poor to many
services available from other agencies, doing family and job counseling, tutoring,
organizing self-help programs, and a new area of CAP planning as they help to
determine needs of the community and write programs. Many communities are
asking for this sort of VISTA help.
Let me call to your attention some of the more innovative programs in
Georgia. Parent-Child Center Projects in Atlanta and in LaFayette, `Georgia,
work with young parents with at least one child under three to develop com-
petence as a family and in the art of child-rearing. They work with children
and parents in groups in the center, with families in their homes, in all areas of
need and counseling.
Senior citizens of low income are employed to care for children in a clay
care center and in a hospital in Atlanta, fulfilling a need for employment `and
an opportunity to use skills and experience for serving children who have little
contact with adults.
The Concentrated Employment Program to recruit, train and place hard core
unemployed and underemployed in permanent employment did have difficulties
in the beginning but now is moving ahead and now has the help of the Chamber
of Commerce. Last summer a Jobmobile, funded with OEO money and sponsored
by the state Labor Department, went into the poverty areas and successfully
recruited.
A comprehensive Health Center has been established in the midst of deep
poverty in Atlanta. Three-fourths of the staff are residents of the poor neighbor-
hoods. Some have been and more are now being trained to serve as community
health workers and dental aides. LaGrange, Georgia, has submitted a grant
application for a needed health center.
PAGENO="0095"
1527
There are 15 neighborhood service centers in Atlanta-Fulton County. This
past spring a Start Now Atlanta program conducted by the residenfs served
by these Centers consisted of tours, still going on, by which volunteers have
been secured, most from suburban areas. There are now 1,656 people trained by
OEO, serving in all kinds of areas of need.
In Burke-Richmond County area (Augusta), QEO will provide staff money
and the Medical College of Georgia will provide services for a mobile health
unit sponsored by Eastern Georgia Farmer's cooperative and labor union. The
Southern Rural Project, sponsored by National Sharecroppers and funded by
OEO, gives strong assistance to farmer's cooperative, private day care centers-
locally supported, sewing `cooperatives in two counties, self-help housing, eco-
nomic development projects, community organizations.
There are Head Start Follow-Through programs in Walker, Pickens, and
Fulton Counties. Funded by OEO money, the major emphasis is to insure that
the progress made while in Head Start will not be lost as these children enter
school. In Walker County, one of the first school systems in the nation desig-
nated for Follow-Through, approximately 100 children participate.
Among the prominent needs in Georgia is that of legal service programs `for
the poor. There are now four such programs with neighborhood offices in the
low-income areas in Atlanta and Savannah. More are needed. In addition, Emory
University School of Law is conducting a project to determine the extent to
which law students can handle tasks in a neighborhood law office.
To promote community cooperation, the Georgia State Economic Opportunity
Office has conceived an idea, now adopted by a number of Community Action
Agencies in the state-to sponsor an annual meeting of the CAA. Invitations
are issued to several hundred citizens of the area to attend a social time and
dinner meeting. The speaker has been the Southeastern Director of the OEO.
Response by citizens has been unexpectedly overwhelming. Expenses are often
borne in large part by local civic organizations. `Communication and understand-
ing and respect for the work of the agency has increased.
I ~ highlighted but a few of the areas in which OE'O has helped the poor
of Georgia to help themselves in health, education, employment, a better family
life. We do have a long way to go and many more poor to reach and to involve.
We do feel other agencies such as welfare, labor, health departments, National
Alliance of Businessmen have been affected by the CAP's. By working with the
programs, they have become more responsive to the poor. The League and many
citizens feel tha't the types of programs that the Economic Opportunity Act has
brought to Georgia and prompted other agencies to sponsor and partially fund,
that the participation of many, segments of the community, including the low-
income people, to alleviate poverty and its causes-can be continued and
increased only by the extension of the programs authorized under the Act.
Georgia needs the assurance that the human development and equal opportunity
which an extension of H.R. 513 will make possible can be counted on to continue.
PREPARED `STATEMENT OF MRs. ROBERT WARREN, DIREcTOR, LEAGUE OF WOMEN
VOTERS or OHIO, ON CONTINUATION OF PROGRAMS AUTHORIZED UNDER THE
ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY ACT OF 1964 (HR. 513)
I am Mrs. Robert Warren of Rocky River, Ohio, director, League of Women
Voters of Ohio. The privilege of speaking to you about the Economic Opportunity
programs in Ohio carries with it the luxury of representing an organization
which has no political axe to grind and therefore places no strictures on its
spokesman's candor. The only axe I am, enjoined to grind for the members of
the League of Women Voters of Ohio is their conviction that poverty can and
must be `eliminated in our state and in the entire nation. Far from assuming
this stance out `of mere idealism, they regard it as the only practical position
available to them.
`The difficulty, of course, is to convince our obviously restless fellow-taxpayers
of this practicality. The oft-heard complaint, "How can we be spending so much
on welfare and still have such a big welfare load?" is echoed by "How can we
be `spending so much on poverty programs and still have a poverty problem?"
The fact that approximately 20 million poor do not receive any public assist-
ance-and represent a full reservoir of unmet needs-seems to have little or
no credibility. .
Economic Opportunity programs in Ohio run the gamut from Head Start to
senior citizen programs. Good use has been made of the federal money (which
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has ranged from 44 to 50 million dollars), particularly with respect to the nuni-
her and quality of its locally-devised, innovative programs. These experiments
in community action, like others in the country, have set in motion certain
easily observed social phenomena:
1. They have uncovered a vast, previously "undiscovered country" of
human and community problems.
~. They have awakened large numbers of the poor to their rights, abilities
and potentialities.
3. They have involved many individuals and groups in a brand new kind
of common effort.
4. They have, by their "ferret-and-referral" activities, added to the respon-
sibilities of our welfare agencies.
5. They have begun to reveal the true dimensions of poverty: how much
of it exists, what contributes to it, what sustains it and how it affects the
total community.
These developments, although clearly consonant with the original purposes
of the Economic Opportunity Act, are often viewed with a certain uneasiness-
certainly a factor in periodic attempts to curtail community action preroga-
tives. Whether or not these originally intended corollaries of the 1964 act should
be regarded as a Pandora's Box, it is our belief that it is now academic to fret
about putting the lid back on. The previously invisible human problems are not
going to disappear again until something very practical is done about them;
the poor are going to remain aroused until their rights as citizens and their
potenials as human beings are fulfilled; slowly but surely, "mainstream"
Americans are beginning to sort out their values and to opt for contributing at
least a little time and talent to the reduction of poverty and discrimination;
public and voluntary health and welfare agencies will continue to reassess
their effectiveness; and the dimensions of poverty will continue to emerge until
the whole tragic vista is visible. It is also academic to argue whether or not
we WANT to go on with finding out just how big the problem is. We can't solve
something we refuse to look at; if we arc afraid to see it-all of it-it would
be better and less confusing for all concerned to simply admit we don't want
to make the attempt, `after all.
Almost all community action programs, by their very nature, turn up the
need for other programs. A job training program is of no use to 70 per cent of
*the applicants because of health problems; a work-experience program falls far
short of its goal `because of `lack of day care facilities; rural outreach workers
discover whole villages without water and sewer facilities; a minister serving
in a poverty area discovers a "hidden" pocket of rural poor among whom the
functional illiteracy rate runs almost 100 per cent; an OEO-trained teacher-aide
iii a Spanish-speaking urban neighborhood finds there has never been any
effort to teach the children English as a second language early `in their public
school experience, needless to say, achievement ran low an'd drop-out rate ran
high); a neighborhood health center~ team turns up a big deman'd for family
planning counselling and discovers there is virtually no such service available
to welfare clients in their county, despite the mandate's in both the Federal
Social Security Amendments of 1907 and the Ohio Welfare R~organizat'ion Act
of 1965. Both rural and urban outreach services have brought to light the need
for homemaker personnel.
Although some of these needs have been partially met in some localities by
initiating new ptograms and by some adjustments in services offered by other
agencies, there is nowhere near enough coverage in any of these areas on a
state-wide basis. There is not an effective enough mechanism for `duplicating
needed programs on a scale which would, together with existing state and
local services, have a state-wide impact.
In addition to fulfilling the OEO purpose of `uncovering previously "invisible"
facets of poverty and stimulating old line agencies to reassess their adequacy,
the Ohio programs have done un exciting job of involving both poor and non-poor
in community development and person-to-person service. College students have
volunteered as tutors, drivers, painters and carpenters; lawyers, doctors, dentists,
housewives, teachers, clergymen, businessmen and trade `uniOns have helped to
furnish the "in kind" share of Ohio's opportunity programs. In some cases
community organizations `have assumed full responsibility for programs begun
under OEO auspices. For example, the Clermont County Head Start program
was maintained by local effort and expanded into a full year program. The
East Central Citizens Organization of Columbus, dependent on federal funds for
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two ye'irs is now virtually self sustaining It is resident controlled and provides
one of the most comprehensive neighborhood self-development programs in the
state.
The Ohio community action agencies seem to be fiscally well managed. The
administrative hang ups they experience are mostly the r~sult of delays in
funding decisions, frequently aggravated by additional delays in delivery of
the actual grants: Some agencies have had to negotiate hank loans to keep in
business, a situation which has damaged their local image a's good mangers.
We are not sure whether to interpret it as a danger signal or not, but it
seems evident that in some cases the non-poverty members of community action
agency boards are not as interested or active as they were in the early days
of the program. Public officials do not seem as anxious as they used to be to
associate themselves with the poverty programs. There is also a ifisquieting
tendency for some of *the programs which could easily convert to all4oc.al
funding to become merely "automatic refunding" propositions. Local share
upgrading should perhaps be required where resources are obviously available
and community enthusiasm runs appropriately high. This would tend to diminish
the danger of the local OEO agencies assuming the stance of "old line"
agencies.
To promote improved skills in money management, home maintenance, con-
sumer self-protection and, preventive health, services continue `to be needed. A de-
institutionalized, ,neighborhood approach seems the most acceptable and
successful. .
It is our firm belief that none of the impetus of `the OEO program ims should
be allowed tQ die out in Ohio. There is still much to be discovered, many people
to reach, a great amount of convincing of the thus-far uninvolved public .that the
War on Poverty is their war. Government by reaction will not fill the bill. We
must capitalize on the fact that the economic opportunity programs have redefined
poverty. We must not back away from our hard-won knowledge.
Decisions about the future of programs must be made with great care. We
must not disrupt the continuity of person-tO-person interest, which has given
first-time hope and dignity to many of our disadvantaged people. In spite of the'
fluidity of American~ society, most of us have institutional roots which reassure
us no matter how we may move about. The economic opportunity programs have
just begun to give `this kind `of assurance to the people they are reaching.
Members `of the League of Women Voters are probably not classifiable as
youth but we like some of our young people too aie angry We will continue
to do battle against poverty and .the public complacency which sustains `it,':but
we suspect that our efforts will be is asted unless the national leadership is willing
to call up enough resources and enough courage .to insure the continuity of na-
tional commitment
Ch~tn man PERKI~ s \Ve ~s iii i eser~ e oui questioning until the end
Mrs. BENSON. Thank you, very much, Mr. Chairman and members
of the committee. . .
I am Mrs. Bruce Benson, of Amherst, Mass., president of the League
of Women.Voters of the United S'tates. It is a pleasure to appear again
before this committee, especially today when many of our State presi-
dents and other State leaders are here in Washington to discuss the
progress and direction of. our work on Various national issues.
I am especially pleased to have four of them testify with me. They
are Mrs. G. B. Nugent, president, LWV Of West Virginia. (South
Charleston); Mrs. Merlyn E. Richardson, `past president, . LWV of
Georgia (Atlanta); Mrs. `Robert Warren,' director, LWV of Ohio
(Rocky River); and Mrs. D. B. Waterman, president, LWV of Iowa
(Muscatine). , ,, . .
Background of league interest: The,. league . has been working. for
5 years on studies of the extent and depth of poverty and of, problems
related to equal opportunity.. .` . . ..
Our members all over the country have followed with great interest
the various programs developed and funded under the Economic
27-754-69--pt. 8-7
PAGENO="0098"
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Opportunity Act of 1964. We are interested in the Federal legislation
and in its implementation in the local community or neighborhood,
and are concerned for the establishment and suìccessful operation of
community programs to deal effectively with problems of the poor and
of minority groups in our society.
Our members have observed and evaluated poverty-related pro-
grams since the beginning. By this time they have acquired a consid-
erable amount of firsthand experience on which to base their views.
The league has supported many of the programs which have been
developed under the EOA. We believe the Federal Government must
continue to assume a large share of responsibility for providing op-
portunities for education, employment, and housing for all persons in
the United States, and we believe there should be Federal coordination
of these programs.
We believe State and local governments also have a vital respon-
sibility. In fact, we are convinced that if all persons are to have an
equal chance for education, jobs, and housing, maximum efforts are
required at all levels of government as well as in the private sector.
The league has developed a number of criteria by which to evaluate
both the programs and the total effort. Among them are that there
should be no discrimination in any program; programs should be
tailored to fit the needs of the people they are intended to reach; and
the people should be involved in the planning and implementation.
There should be continuing evaluation and experimentation; there
should be competent personnel to meet the requirements of the
programs.
League surveys: Many of our leagues have just completed and have
reported to our national board their own evaluations on how coin-
munity action programs are operating in their communities and what
some of the problems have been. Their surveys reflect a number of
observations and nuances frequently lacking in purely statistical data.
* Impact on traditional community institutions; changes in commu-
nity attitudes toward the poor and their problems; effect on the poor.
and disadvantaged in their goals, aims, and participation in other
community institutions-these are intangibles and they are hard to
measure, but they must be taken into account when programs are
being evaluated.
Attached to this testimony are some representative excerpts from the
lengthy reports containing league comments on the value of the pro-
grams to their communities, some suggestions for improvement, and
some league concerns.
Overall, the surveys indicate that CAP agencies have achieved one
of the most important first steps in the war on poverty, public officials,
civic organizations, community leaders, businessmen, and citizens have
been confronted for the first time with some of the actual conditions
of poverty as they exist in their communities and with some of the
people who are poor.
I think all of us here would agree that most of us have been pain-
fully slow to recognize that in America some people suffer want and
discrimination not only because of what we as a society have done,
but aisobecause of what we have ignored and neglected.
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Our leagues also report that the effort and money spent in CAP,
`while not enough, has been worth it, both in terms of accomplishments
and promise for the future. Of course, some leagues report failure and
the disbanding of agencies in their cities and towns. Some leagues re-
port that, in spite of their community's working hard to establish an
agency, lack of funds prevents a start.
There are a number of difficulties; one of them has been, the problem
of getting a quorum present at CAP board meetings. Some leagues
say that often public officials, now on these boards only because of
their official positions, are not really interested and that, in some cases,
the poor themselves fail to attend. It is not possible to tell if the poor
people do not come because of disillusionment, apathy, lack of hope,
or timidity.
Many leagues have observed, however, that often the poor people
begin with diffidence and little initial participation but become more
and more articulate and constructive as they gain experience and
confidence. You will see, also, in several of the attached comments
that in some instances public officials have or have developed through
CAP involvement a deep interest and real commitment
The reports emphasize the need to reach more people who are poor.
Those who have been involved have benefited-many have risen out
of poverty, now have jobs; many dropouts have gone back to school,
some to college; others have learned homemaking skills for improved
living conditions.
Most important, these reports show the development of pride and
dignity, hope, and leadership abilities. Over and over the surveys men-
tion the benefits to poor people of their participation in decisions and
programs that affect their lives.
Leagues also report that Cap's have had a noticeable impact on tra-
ditional agencies. There have been improvements in the approaches
and the attitudes of welfare workers. Headstart programs have sparked
changes in techniques and methods used in schools and in the attitudes
of teachers. There have been improvements in public services and de-
centralization of some of them, and more participation of poor people
in general community activities.
The reports also mention an increased awareness by the community
of its problems, increased participation by civic organizations,
churches, community leaders, citizens, and local officials, and a more
receptive attitude to the needs and problems of the poor.
Some leagues questioned earmarking of funds and expressed a wish
for more flexibility so that funds could be used where the need is most
evident. Short-term funding and lateness of commitment of money,
leagues said, creates problems of shortage of staff and personnel turn-
over-continuity in a job is important to directors and staff-and.
decreases possible effectiveness of programs.
In fact, in most reports, leagues reported uncertainties about con-
tinuity and funding as a constant concern and handicap.
In spite of the short time OEO has been operating, in spite of the
tremendous problems it is supposed to solve in spite of the difficulties
in coordinating the efforts of many different Federal governmental
agencies and of different levels of government, and in spite of funds;
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1532
iimdequate for the job, we think the Office of Economic Opportunity
has performed its task well, particularly as an innovator and as an
experimental agency. And there continues to be a need for a Federal
clearinghouse for an exchange of solutions and ideas communities have
found useful in efforts to combat poverty and discrimination.
We think it is very important to recognize that all experiments
cannot and will not be victories. The history of research is replete
in the stories of failures that preceded success. Americans seem to
expect in those areas of research in which we are advanced-in the
development of machines, weapons, medicine for instance-to spend
vast sums of money on what may be and many times are failures.
However, in the area of improving the lives in people, in human
relationships-a field in which we are far from advanced-Americans
expect to make rapid progress and to have the money we spend pro-
duce quick and visible results. We must recognize that here, too, it
is very important to find out what will not work, because it is a neces-
sary part of the process of finding out what will work.
We also recognize that coordination of the many approaches to
the solution of poverty and discrimination is difficult. We know that
working with a variety of governmental agencies and with many
different governmental levels poses special problems. Mistakes, which
might well be expected in a new agency created to help solve long-
standing, long-neglected complicated prdblems, have all too frequently
been overly publicized and successes overlooked.
The league believes that the coordinating and innovative role of
OEO should be strengthened. We believe its authority should be
extended tO insure that poverty programs administered by other
agencies, including OEO-delegated programs, have leadtime for plan-
ning and for the continuation of successful and promising programs.
Some of the recent efforts in improving fiscal accounting and office
and personnel management in local CAP agencies should begin to
bear fruit. Careful evaluation of administrative methods, to promote
both accountability and room for flexibility, should continue, it seems
to us, rather than drastic cuts in programs and abrupt changes before
adequate alternatives are ready.
If we are really serious about providing equal opportunity for
everyone in education, training, and a decent livelihood and a decent
home, we must be wiffing to make changes and to try new and varied
approaches, sifting out and then promoting what seems to work well.
Therefore, we support H.R. 513, to continue authorization for
5 years programs authorized under the Economic Opportunity Act
of 1964, so that leadtime is available for planning and evaluation.
We believe that changes and modifications are always in order before
the expiration of that time.
We believe the amount authorized for fiscal 1970, $2.18 billion, is a
minimum. We would like to see a larger amount, in view of the
priority we believe should be given to elimination of poverty and
discrimination in the richest nation in the world and the world's lead-
ing democracy.
The attached comments of local leagues are arranged by States.
We hope they will indicate to you why the league supports H.R. 513.
PAGENO="0101"
1533
(The information referred to follows:)
Appendix
EXCERPTS FROM RECENT SURVEYS MADE BY LOCAL LEAGUES ON THE POVERTY
PROGRAM
Birmingham, Ala.
"The training (in OEP) has been good for the enrollee but very few have found
jobs. Racism is still such a problem here that a black typist can hardly be placed
in private business. There must be more cooperation between the community and
the OAA if there is to be any progress."
Florence, Ala.
"The best thing about the OAA is that they can initiate programs in new areas
and unique programs to fulfill specific needs. The Head Start and senior worker
programs . . . There are no public kindergartens in our state and no previous
programs for disadvantaged children . . . (nor) enlightened or beneficial public
assistance for the elderly. The response from this neglected group to this program
has been fantastic . . . Last week the OAA disclosed a flagrant overcharge on
home improvement on a 60-year old lady who had paid $450 for a $75 roof job on
a $70 pension."
Tuscaloosa, Ala.
"Employment: a striking demonstration of the capability and energy of the
poor when given an opportunity Ito accomplish `something concrete."
East Maricopa, Ariz.
"Problems have been pointed up and brought out. The established agencies can
no longer sweep them under the rug. The programs which have been developed
are those that are needed. They need to be strengthened. Local CAAs needed to
do the prodding."
Tucson, Ariz.
"The ~mmunity Action Programs here fill a desperate need, are handled well,
enjoy the backing of the community, and in many cases are (providing) imagina-
tive ways of filling basic needs."
Camden, Ark.
(Influence on traditional agencies.) "They have refused to be affected because
they have resented federal `interference.' Individual teachers, however, see the
benefits of Head Start . . ."
Orange Co., Calif.
(Best program) "Head Start. The poverty groups like it; know about it; par-
ticipate; and understand it."
~S~acraniento, Calif.
(Hard to evaluate attitudes) "but we feel that the fact that more mass media
-newspapers, radio, TV-now cover SAEOC activities and in more depth is a
point to indicate community awareness and concern, as well as acceptance. (effect
on traditional agencies) Housing authority is now under qualified leadership
of new executive director. School board was made aware of community needs in
area of large Mexican-American density. Neighborhood Youth Corps involved
100 kids . . . Some members should be reminded to stop the quibbling and keep
mind on long range goals. Perhaps the regional office could be of assistance here
in giving direction."
,S1an Francisco, Calif.
(R.e attitudes of local officials) "Great controversy at first. Now that officials
are serving on OAA board, they are involved in making it work . . . (influence
on traditional agencies) Many are actual delegate agencies and/or have expanded
services in target areas."
tlkiah Calif
"Hope the CAA continues . . Low income people need a voice in rural as well
as urban areas . . . The main element in attracting low-income segment is hope
of a job. If they are not selected because of inability to qualify, they become
discouraged and drop out."
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Denver, Cob.
"Some (members in the target area) have found employment in bnsines~
through their training and experience in DO agencies. Those involved have be-
come a source for the community to contact and have dialogue with . . . provided
leaderahip for Model Cities in their program planning."
Danbury, Conn.
(Suggestions for improvement) "Only that funds continue to come-the ef-
fectiveness of action is first being felt and cut backs would be devastating to the
efforts that have been started."
Stamford, Conn.
(Influence on traditional agencies) "It is often difficult to separate the in-
fluence of the OEO-CAA from the entire climate of social change in the past
decade. With that in mind, it is possible to note ,some changes.
"The most direct example is the pre-kindergarten program instituted this year
by the local Board of Education. This enables children who are over-income by
national poverty standards-which are very low for this area-to receive the
benefits of the Head Start program. The Board of Education's program is run
by the same director who runs the Head Start program and incorporates many
of the same features. A police-community relations center has been instituted in
several neighborhoods. The business community has set up a job-training program
using the OAA for the functions of recruiting, counseling, giving pre-job orienta-
tion and some basic education when needed. The basic approach of going into
the neighborhoods with services, of listening to the poor, etc., has been adopted by
many traditional agencies and groups. Since the discovery by Head Start medical
doctors of high levels of lead in the blood of the poor children, a Health Depart-
ment program has begun and the public schools cooperate in detection."
Central Brevord, Fl.
need to enlarge ALL the programs-Head Start for 1,000 poor children-
Day Care needed for working mothers-more job opportunities, training, etc.-
special help for those who are behind and about to drop out. GAA staff must use
all community resources-planning, action-government and nongovernment."
Befleville, Ill.
(League in St. Clair county) "East St. Louis has a population of more than
80,000 people and has been going downhill for a long time. Of the business and
manufacturing establishments left in the city, most are owned by people who
live in St. Louis or Belleville . . . the population is between 60 and 70 percent
black . . . East St. Louis has been milked dry. Industry has moved out, and
the tax base has fallen so low that the public school system is bankrupt and
could not sell its bonds last year . . . The Metro-East Journal is an excellent
newspaper which seems to have faith in the city. The best hope of everyone is
the success of the EOC and the Model Cities programs. These people, with so
little to hope for, are accomplishing miracles. Southern fllinois University has a
new branch in this area, too . . . I hope this . . . letter will give you a vision
of the importance of the Economic Opportunity Commission in our area. The
poverty program and other programs through which federal funds are available
offer the only hope for East St. Louis to make a comeback . . . but the city has
an obvious potential. Located on the Mississippi River directly across from St.
Louis, which is undergoing a renascence, one would expect that the same factors
that have made St. Louis grow would work for East St. Louis . . . the executive
director of the Economic Opportunity Commission . . . grew up in one of the
most wretched areas near East St. Louis, attended a segregated school, and
somehow got a good education-MA in Social Work from the University Of Mis-
souri. He has been the reason for the great success of the EOC, but none of its
activities could have been carried out without the federal funds . . . both state
and federal agencies now seem to have concentrated their attention on East St.
Louis."
Freeport, Ill.
"Our first project, a demonstration mental health and counseling clinic, was
successful in publicizing the great need here for such services. As a result, a
county wide referendum approved a mental health tax and we now have a mental
health clinic giving a full schedule of counseling and treatment services, support
by pubita funds iücluding stiate grant-will continue next year if clinic becomes
PAGENO="0103"
1535
two-county `like the OAA, with all the accompanying difficulties of combining two
disparate counties and hazards of travel Head Start has been a huge success-
no criticism except that not enough money is approved to do all the dental work
needs for these children-excellent cooperation from parents of children. Neigh-
borhood Youth Corps has provided badly `needed work for these young people
sometimes with good supervision and sometimes with poor supervision, depending
on agency asking for help . . . The tutoring center in the ghetto school has `been
much appreciated by the school system and the parents . . . hard `to get OEO
approval . . . they say it should `be funded under E'SEA.
(an organization) which has done family welfare `work here for more
than 85 years was apurred on to start its Day Oare center after it ran Head
Start the first summer. The `PTA's have thereafter sponsored Head Sta'rt and
many more programs as a result, directed toward an understanding of the
causes and conditions of poverty here. The schools `are sponsoring their own
preschool program under Title III in the school year, not the summer, which
does not compete with Head Start nor eliminate the need for it . . . (workers)
in Head `Start found new techniques and continue to apply them in (`private
agency, schools) . . . Illinois State Employment service office cooperated with
vigor in CEP . . . good cooperation wi'th the Illinois Division of Rehabilitation
iocial worker here."
Gary, md.
"Schools, under ESEA programs, have adopted the OEO concept of com-
munity involvement."
~Wt. Pleasant, Iowa.
". . . only concern is that Congress fight inflation by cutting back on highways,
dams, post offices and armories instead of . . . OEO."
Waterloo-Cedar Falls, Iowa.
"As the community has become more aware of the needs, there has been more
understanding and volunteer help. Presenting the picture ha's been a hugh hurdle:
the League has formed a panel of recipient's to present the need-about 25 pro-
grams have been presented."
Kansas City, Kans. "
(Suggestions for `change) "More emphasis on positive aspects of people in
target areas instead of trying to counsel them and educate them into the same
kind of life white middle-class America is experiencing-~--changes such as using
funds to organize groups to change institutions which keep people poor
training for Head Start teachers . . . to help parents feel more adequate instead
of very inadequate and failures . . . people do not organize around their
failures."
T~eaington, Ky. `
(H'ow governmental and private resources have been coordinated with CAA
programs to help the `di~advantaged). "Examples: park `area-~badly needed-
was donated by the city commission in a neighborhood. The city floated a bond
issue for road improvement, sewers, sidewalks, gutters, water and lights. The
Lexington BeautificatiOn `committee worked with residents in cleaning up and
tributed paint. The city closed an uncovered sewer which `had been in one
improving the physical appearan~e of their homes. Local `business firms con-
poverty area for over thirty years Cost-approximately $30 000
& neighborhood center is located in a public housing project securecj
through cooperation with the Municipal Housing Authority.
"Our community badly needs low cost housing. The `Housing Action Committee
secured the coOperation of a local builder to build a demonstration house.
The city has offered to improve the street and enforce `a regulation against
truck traffic on the street the Lexington Fayette Housing Aid corporation
ha~ been formed They will attempt to make more readily available adequate
housing for those who need it by building and rehabilitation Within the last
month a local bank Bank of Lexington ha's made available to the corporation a
fund of $40,000-at no interest-to begin a rehabilitation program.
"Through a summer Neighborhood Youth `Corps Program, private nonprofit
corporations and federal officers `assisted in making summer employment possible
for about 480 young people. An additional 125 youths gained employment through
the Youth Opportunity Campaign .
PAGENO="0104"
1536
(Effect on target groups of OAP involvement) `~Before the formation of
C.A.L.F., there was no directed effort toward organization of the poor. There
was a lack of communication between them and the power structure, or decision
makers. Through community action they have learned where and how to present
problems and seek effective solutions. The small rural community of about 125
~rsons, known as Jimtown, was able to secure water. This was a combined
effort of local government officials, private agencies and individuals. Jimtown,
located in the beart of the best horse farming `regionof Kentucky, existed for over
100 years without running water.
"About two years ago the delegate agency for Head Start, Fayette County
Schools, objected to the guideline whinh required involvement of the Head
Start Policy Advisory Committee in the selection of the director and decided not
to have Head Start. Hundreds of residents, including a great many from the
target groups, effectively petitioned and obtained a reversal of the decision.
"Three neighborhood groups are threatened by the encroachment of industry
upon their residential area. Much of the area hats been rezoned industrial for
several years. Great numbers of the homes are substandard; many have been
condemned and razed but it is impossible to build new homes because of the
zoning. The groups sought a meeting with the Planning Commission and city
officials and are now (late February) in the process of officially requesting re-
zoning to residential, as it is now being used. The people were very articulate in
presenting their case to the officials."
Baton Rouge, La.
Mrs. informed us that for the first time this year GAl has a planning
committee; until now theirs has been a crash program of necessity; they hope
to plan for five years. .
"School board started summer kindergartens as an effect of GAl activity.
Intentional interlocking of boa~rds and people (a good thing). Legal services (have
been) greatly expanded: legal information and law reform through Legal Aid
Society. Legal Aid Society had minimum function previuosly largely due to lack
of funds."
Jefferson Parish, La.
"~ * * a year-round Head Start would jolt school system into implementing
kindergarten."
Baltimore County, Md.
"Genuine community organization is a long-term process uncovering many
hidden needs in addition to the obvious ones~ Monies needed for increased
staff; also for expanding and initiating programs."
Frederick County, Md.
(Influence on traditional agencies.) "Yes, through CAC many inadequacies
of other agencies have become apparent to those involved. They have often
improved the quality of their services due to the threat of CAC doing them
better."
Springfield Area, Mass.
"The League in Springfield has worked closely with our CAA and feel that
it is a vitally needed program `in the community. Almost every area of weakness
in any prOgram or service of the Springfield action commission has been directly
due to lack of adequate funds and funding policies. Some. of the negative atti-
tudes of low income residents have been traced to the cutting off or dropping
because of cutbacks in funds of good programs that were filling a need. This
has unfortunately but understandably caused some feeling of distrust or out-
right animosity. For example, mothers of young children trained for employ-
ment and then gainfully employed, many (were) previous welfare recipients,
placed their children in the Head Start program or day care centers only to
have these - services reduced this past year because of lack of funds. The one-
third representation from our local city government are often negative influences
at board meetings and on policy decisions. They do not understand the problems
of truly poor people * * their attitudes seem to be that of policing the whole
program. rather than improving or advancing it."
Worcester, Mass.
"Now tb~t they are represented on the `GAO board (local governmental offi-
cials), their objections have been quelled. This involvement of government
officials has, contrary to the expectations of many, been beneficial to the CAC."
PAGENO="0105"
1537
Detroit, Mich.
Target area citizens who became involved in CAA at its start are still
active leaders-they tend to monopolize policy-making-have become a `power
group-very vocal'. They want tO keep status quo and like own patronage."
Flint, Miclv.
More than half of the staff of the Head Start program is drawn from
below the poverty line teacher aides food aides etc ~ * The needs of this
community (Genesee County) are basically jObs education and child care-
~Jl inextricably bound up together How one separates the all encompassing
needs from the shotgun programs which attempt to do something about all
three ~ ith limited funds and time would be hard to speculate The programs
do come from the OEO but the manner in which they become a part of the
community and try to meet the needs of the `consumers' is planned by those
very consumers. Head Start is very popular; so is Legal Services. The summer
programs have become rather a summer fixture; however, all these approaches
are bandaids temporarily covering great wounds which need intensive care."
Grand Traverse Area, Mich.
Our own reaction would seem that the goals are good but the multiplicity
of programs and agencies, the overlapping of what does which and why, the
proper contacts to be made and bow to go about what, is utterly confusing
and bewildering."
Warren, Mich.
consideration by the federal government of programs proposed by the
CAA is important since they know where the problems are and where help is
needed."
Fridley, Minn.
(Coordination of CAA with local, state and private resources) "This has been
an up-hill task. It must be accomplished, however, if the OEO programs are to
fulfill their responsibilities in meeting the needs of economically disadvantaged
grou~s. These programs do not duplicate but run parallel to others in the
community."
JI1inn eapolis, Minn.
"The increased community activity has brought resident participation to an
unprecedented level, with determination to receive a hearing, to make a "dent"
in stereotypes and established patterns of agencies, to bring about changes-
such as the AFDC Mothers' League, which has developed along with CAP
activity.
(Effect on traditional agencies) ". . . relaxation of some welfare investigative
procedures, greater approachability of personnel by clients, more receptivity
toward client-expressed needs and opinions `are all attributable to the cjim'ate of
community awareness which has accompanied CAP development in Minneapolis.
The schools began and have expanded use of indigenous personnel in this con-
text. The United Fund is currently re-evaluating its agency-admission policies
and the direction of its fund distribution in terms of the needs of the total com-
munity and the predicament of the inner city . . . the general awakening and
increased articulateness of many poverty area people, coupled with their demand
to be heard in their own terms `and their own neighborhoods, have had an
irretrievable impact on our community. This is resulting in re-examination of and
changes in recruiting and hiring policies by businesses; in increased `accessability
of governmental officials and responsiveness of department personnel; in reassess-
ment of their responsibilities by the additional private social agencies; and in
increased awareness of the needs of the poor by the unpoor."
Roseville, Minn.
"Need very strong national guidelines to insure participation of poor, the
uneducated and minorities
~horeview, Minn.
if OEO is broken up and programs put under other existing departments,
(fear) that the `maximum participation' concept will get lost `and the programs
w ill degenerate back into more centrally decided do for programs
PAGENO="0106"
1538
St. Louis, Mo.
"The employment programs-CEP, NYC, and Comprehensive Manpower-got
jobs for 7,000 last year. Two-hundred fifty passed the high school equivalency
test as a result of the adult basic education classes."
Billings, Mont.
(Board fulfilling its policy making role?) "In the first few years, yes. During
the period following passage of the Green amendment and difficulties with county
commissioners; the whole L ard was not `always involved; Situation has improved
considerably and continues to do so with active efforts to involve all members of
the board in policy making. . . . Schools have probably been most influenced by
CAA . . . instituted adult basic education, employ senior citizens in classrooms
and at crosswalks, will be providing tutoring services. Employment office
cooperative . . ."
Missoula, Mont.
"Some Head Start mothers have become much more self-confident-involved,
articulate, informed-following experience gained in this program . . . the CAA
here has been effective in getting some low-income people actively working toward
solving their problems. For instance, a low-income organization here is very
active in trying to get minimum wage legislation for Montana."
Reno, Sparks, Carson~ City, Nev.
"CAA should be allowed to continue. Three years is not enough for evaluation
and action . . . Outreach centers have brought confrontation between black stu-
dents and white teachers and help keep lines of communication open.. . Minority
children are no longer forced into special education classes whether this service
was needed or not."
Keene, N.H.
~`All of these programs-Head Start, New Careers, REFER-have uncovered
problems in our area which can be and are being solved. They all contribute to
awakening some pride and responsibility in the participants . . . The schools
have certainly backed Head Start Summer programs all the way and have used
some of the information gained in Head Start experience in developing and
inaugurating reading readiness testing, etc. Welfare agencies have been able
to look at the needs of their clients from a different perspective, which has b~en
to the advantage of both sides."
Atlantic Co., N.J.
"Great mobility has resulted from local community employees moving on to
greater opportunities."
Lawrence Township, N.J.
"Participation in these programs has encouraged a new sense of pride in some
of these people and in their children. There is a developing sense of community,
socially and politically. People who never dreamed of such a thing are saving
money in the Credit Union. An increasing group of people is getting specific help
in the form of jobs, acadernic tutoring, etc."
Linden, N.J.
"More funds are needed. Don't stop these programs. I'm on the Board of
R.C.A.D. and see what's being done. The whole community has been uplifted."
Middlesex Co., N.J.
"In a general way we feel the programs have been u-eli run, staffed and
structured but almost universally funded at a level too low for them to really
make a substantial dent in the problems they are directed to."
Albany Co., N.Y.
(Influence on traditional agencies) "Yes. Welfare challenged; police, fire
department, code enforcement have had to reevaluate attitudes and procedures.
Head Start has challenged the status quo of the schools. Bank has opened a
branch in the area."
Beliport, N.Y.
"I think more and more white and black poor are coming to recognize the
program as helpful to them. Among those who know they are eligible but who
would prefer not to admit it there is the usual kind of antagonism and bitterness,
but the variety of approaches toward people needing different kinds of services
seems to be gradually helping this area."
PAGENO="0107"
1539
Eastohester, N.Y.
(Influence on traditional agencies) "Yea They have been jolted into realizing
that traditional methods of solving problems of the poor are no longer effective.
Bureaucracy has been threatened. Attitude of the school has improved. Problems
in the community that have always been there have been uncovered and dealt
with."
Roslyn, N.Y.
". . . wish we could still have one (CAP agency)-many good things are
happening because people got together and talked to one another."
Asheville N C
"As with all organizations, .(OEO) stands the chance of becoming too rigid,
too solid an institution, with lack of regard for new ideas and innovations,
especially from the poor. Since the very existence depends upon . . . Congress,
there is a natural caution."
Burlington, N.C.
"Acceptance and participation has been higher among black low-income families
than white. Those eligible represent 60 percent white, 40 percent Negro. Those
participating are 60 percent Negro, 40 percent white. This is better than the
experience of most such agencies in the state."
Raleigh-Wake Co., N.C.
(Suggestions for change) "Greater awareness of failure to get people and
services together-both transportation problems and sheer knowledge of services
available. New swing toward community organization makes OAA less a service
arm to welfare, health, etc., programs. Head Start has helped convince schools
of need for public kindergartens."
Lima Area, Ohio. .
"All programs funded in Allen County are vitally needed here if for no other
reason that the people they are serving were practically cut off from services
other than the Welfare Department in the past. Outlets in the area served are now
available down where the people live to give (the people) access.to services which
are provided by other community organizations, as well as those funded by
OEO. The programs simply need to reach more people."
Oxford, Ohio.
"It is somewhat difficult to find qualified poverty people to employ. In the
large city there are 15. classes with a total of 225 children enrolled. However,
there are 1700 children who could benefit from such a program. The yearly lag in
funding causes . . . delay in starting the programs each fail."
Norman, Okla.
"Something very good has happened to this community as a result of CAA.
Indian community has its own full time nurse. Staff people have had contact,
have been to, to level. Small and almost invisible effort and action (has devel-
oped)-the kind of thing that does not lend itself to statistic making. There
is evident a new attitude of respect for the individual in the poverty or
minority group
M'uskogee, Okia.
"Yes (the board fulfills the policy making role). With a dynamic board
president . . . elected from one of the 13 community centers, (board members)
hardly dare be absent from meetings ... . some probably fear as well as respect
her ability and leadership; she keeps them on their toes."
The Dalles, Oreg.
"Guidelines are sometimes a problem. An example of this is that our Board
would have preferred to put additional money into Day Care to extend the
program rather than begin an older people's program. We also had a difficult
time having our Day Care Centers accepted as they now are, but through
perseverance . . . have developed a program appropriate to our needs. By
earmarking money Congress takes the initiative aWay from local people
Allegheny Co Pa
"General community seems to be actively hostile to the OEO program. It
resents the implication that poverty exists in the borough."
PAGENO="0108"
1540
Beaver Valley, Pa.
"The centers have accomplished many things. There is real competition, almost,
in trying to outdo each other! . . . scout troops, sewing class, youth corps
establishment of small `library outposts' . . . involving the poor is a real prob-
lem-apathy is everywhere . . . in all classes of people. People want tan gibles,
e.g., jobs, day care centers, better transportation, better housing . .
Pittsburgh, Pa.
"Involvement of target groups-clue to informational programs, people are more
aware of their rights and are learning how to be politically effective. As a former
coordinator has stated, `The decision-making process has changed. No one
can make plans for the North Side without involving the grass roots people.' The
result has been salutary in geperal. It is apparent, however, that some of the more
vocal and able are siphoned off into the establishment, thereby enhancing their
own personal positions but weakening the general program."
TVilkes-Barre, Pa.
"From a search for new methods to solve the problem of poverty there has
been a retreat to known programs of proven value. This has been the result of
too little money available to mount a massive program from which definitive
results could be secured."
Swmter Co., ~
"More effort could be made to reach the hard core-director (conscious) of
not offending the power structure at the risk of the betterment of the community
or sincerely helping the poor."
Chattanooga, Tenn.
"Schools through the Head Start Program is a very definite example (of change
in traditional agencies). The canvassing activities of the Neighborhood Service
Centers have produced referrals to the DPW, Health Dept., etc. . . . At this
time a rather full spectrum of services are represented in Chattanooga. These,
of course, should not be static, but expanded or reduced *according to need.
New programs or refinements of old ones should always be open for consideration.
Unsuccessful programs should be revised or dropped."
M~trfreesboro, Tenn.
(Effect on traditional agencies) "Direct quote from the Department of Public
Welfare: `Neighborhood Service Center Program is the best thing* that has
happened to us in 1968. Children in Head Start are the best thing to have
happened to public assistance recipients' . . . CAA's are doing a good job.
Considering the shortage of funds made available to them, there would be little
chance for change-unless more funds can be allocated."
Dallas, Tear.
"The Community Organizations have given voice and a sense of responsibility
to target area people . . . has brought out leadership and created a line of
communication between these communities and the larger Dallas community.
It has made the invisible poor visible-often as many as 150 spectators at DCCAC
board meetings when they are held in the target area.
"The Legal Services in Dallas has been outstanding as a source of help for
the ill educated who have often been victimized . . . uncovered loan and home
improvement rackets in 1968 and helped bring about a city ordinance to require
reasonable standards in advertising and performance by trade schools in
Dallas.
"Some (programs) should be expanded, others become more and more part of
local agencies, doing the same work, but incorporating the unique personal ap-
proach and use of target area employees. The aim of the total program should
be to become a. part of the community structure, not perpetuate a federal
bureaucracy."
El Paso, Tea.
"Head Start is the most successful program so far. If they (CAP) are successful
in bringing in new industry; it appears that one large manufacturing:plant will
definitely relocate . . . This will be of great benefit to all of the community . .
need more industry to provide more jobs for target area residents . . .. (the
general community) does not really understand the programs and purposes."
PAGENO="0109"
1541
Honston, Teo.
Funding on a year to year basis is death to planning Of course now no one
has any secure feelings about planning. Money, planning and `adequate trial are
needed to prove out some of the programs
Stan Antonio, Te~v. ` `
"Association between the OEO-CAA and traditional agencies has generated
considerable change in their approach and method of `operation. For instance,
services previously proferred through formal bureaus now have become more
`people-oriented' and `decentralized. Personnel . . . making a greater effort to
understand the complex poverty situation and target groups involved. Employers
are e~atuating job qualification requirements to make jobs available to the poorly
educated and inexperienced worker. The schools are beginning to implement
program's and furnish courses that related directly to poverty, groups. Settlement
Home Boards have increased decision-making participation by the poor. The City
Council finally adopted Food Stamps at the urging of neighborhood councils
"To single out particular programs and indicate ,that they most nearly serve
specific needs is an impossibility since the need here in ,San Antonio in all pro-
gram areas is so terribly great. There is room in most prOgrams for tightened
efficiency `of operation, more outreach activity-certainly expansion. In most
programs, even the best-run, most generously funded, only the surface has been
scratched-our unemployment and subemployment figures don't even realistically
fit within national percentages. It would appear that Community Organization
efforts need to be given greater resources to develop the lasting framework from
neighborhood resident participation in self-help training and efforts.. Economic
development and employment efforts which will eventually increase target area
resident income may be the only long range solutions to the problems~ - . ."
Wichita Falls, Tear.
"The (CAP) has proven a catalyst that has mOved them to seek to' help them-
selves. 113 families have been helped out of the poverty class so far and 153 indi-
viduals have been trained through the NYC out of school. It has given them hope."
Momtpeiier, Vt.
(A'bout sEaff) "We have a policy of taking in low-income people, giving thOrn
training in the administration of the agency and trying to give them opportunities
elsewhere when they are ready, so we can take in more at the entry level."
Richmond, Va.
(Influence on traditional agencies) "Yes. In some cases forced healthy reevalua-
tion. Provided voice for previous unheard poverty problems. Brought needed
programs `and awareness to problem target areas. . . . Many individuals have
broken out of the poverty cycle because of involvement in the Richmond CAP
whole families have also `benefitted. Numbers are hard to find but there are
significailt numbers."
Roanoke, Va.
"Any organization which has to depend on annual funding from Congress `and
therefore is unsure of its continued existence from year to year is necessarily
severely limited in its efficiency-programs, staff recruitment, etc. . . . (on ef-
fectiveness) Yes. First grade teachers complain that Head `Starters `always asking
questions; won't sit with hands folded on desk.".
Ulallam Co., Wash.
(Involvement of target area people in decision making) "This is an on-going
process-it is exciting to see it develop! . . . see a new sense of dignity, a new
awareness of their potential on the part of some of the members ,of the target
groups . . . see some who have learned how to communicate their concerns
better. But this is still in specific instances only; there are a lot more to be
reached yet."
(Influence on traditional agencies) "It is such a long, slow process. Two years
ago one school board did not even answer the letter requesting Head Start, now
it haggles over taking part in a program `that will cost only a few hundred dollars.
Some welfare workers are . . . now more knowledgeable about their (clients')
problems . . . The junior college is quick to see potential for change `but a long
lived bureaucratic institution resists every `change. Our city council just created
a Human Relations Commission, which two years ago would have been almost
unheard of
PAGENO="0110"
1542
"(We are) of the opinion that the worst thing that could happen. in this
community would be to cut off CAP. This in effect would convince those who
have been resisting CAP's goals that they were right and that low income people
had no reason to try to solve their problems. Resistance would be further
strengthened . . . low income people are now thinking in terms of improvement
and changes in their way of living and being treated."
Tacoma-Pierce Co., Wash.
"If the CAA is to ever reach its desired goals in our community there will have
to be a very large educational program for the entire citizenry. There is a great
deal of confusion, opposition and apathy generated, at this time at all levels,
from the disadvantaged, the general community and the government officials
have not the time, space, nor energy to explain all the reasons why. I'm
sure there are other areas in the United States facing the same Communications
gap - . - The multiservice centers have served well to identify poverty and
heeds and to make the poor aware of possibilities. Changed emphasis to more
ilirect action to remove families from poverty are needed and being planned-
employment-oriented with total family supportive services to make employment
above poverty level a reality."
~Madison, Wis.
"The Community Welfare Council's report was favorable toward the CAC
and the Council now has recipients on its board. The Library Board also now
includes low-income people. Persons familiar with the City Health Department
`Indicate that related changes have occurred there. As a direct result of parti-
~ipation of CAC advisory council there are low-income persons running currently
as candidates for mayor, alderman, and school board. . . . Programs have been
~liverse, meeting needs of all ages. Head Start has been the most successful
program . . . best administered and best received. Serving 180 children, it
reaches only one-tenth of the eligible. NYC is also successful, serving about the
same proportion. However, the Outreach Community Development programs using
a neighborhood-centered concept have been uniquely meaningful to the residents
involved and have stimulated real grass-roots neighborhood interest and action."
Mrs. BENsoN. As the members of this committee may be aware,
we in the league are concerned abOut the closing of Job Corps centers
before the proposed many skill centers have been established and
operating.
It took over a year to get the first 11 Job Corps centers underway.
We think it unlikely that the many skill centers will be ready by
July 1 to provide a viable choice for these young people now in centers
to be closed. The legislation looks with favor on establishing and
trying new approaches but does not see the necessity for abrupt clos-
ing out of Job Corps centers.
Now, we would like you to hear from some of the State leaders with
me who see the OEO programs from the vantage point of their own
States and their own communities.
If I may, I would like to call on Mrs. Nugent, president of the
League of Women Voters of West Virginia first.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead.
Mrs. NUGENT. Mr. Chairman and committee members, I am Mrs.
Robert Nugent, of Morgantown, W. Va., president of the League of
`Women Voters of West Virginia, which has been involved during the
past 5 years in a study of poverty and discrimination in the State.
Many of our members have been working with the poor. They have
come to know the depth and extent of the disabilities and despair that
poverty brings. They understand why all 55 counties in West Virginia
were judged depressed at the time of the passage of the Appalachian
Regional Development Act of 1965.
Certain statistics tell our story. The unemployment rate for the
State in March 1969 was 6.3 percent involving 36,000 persons; a year
PAGENO="0111"
1543
earlier it was nearly 8 percent. Half of our people have less than a
ninth grade education and 45 percent or more of the public school
students drop out before they graduate from high school.
West Virginia ranks about 44th for all States in per pupil expendi-
ture in elementary and secondary education. About 30 percent of
the housing is substandard.
Thus, underemployment and low skill levels result in an income base
which yields insufficient taxes to support quality education. In the
rural and poorest counties, educational and job opportunities are
severely limited. Outmigration results but the migrant is unfortunately
neither educationally, socially, or psychologically fit to compete in
the more sophisticated urban centers.
The ones who stay behind live on poverty incomes or welfare. This
is the backdrop against which the OEO programs are conducted in
West Virginia.
All 55 counties in West Virginia have had summer Headstart pro-
grams; 14 counties now operate year-round centers. Three are not
funded by OEO. Follow Through programs have been established on
a pilot basis in three counties. They continue into the first and second
grade the central concept of Headstart-to develop the whole child,
physically, mentally, socially, and emotionally.
While it is generally agreed that the children have benefited, some
observers feel that parent participation has not been as pervasive as
it should be. Yet the parents must be involved to help sustain the
spirit of hopefulness and to reinforce the motivation to study in
the child. Headstart in West Virginia reaches only about a sixth of
the children in need.
Those of us who have been: in touch with the program can clearly
see its impact. Many public schools have incorporated the idea of
individual attention into their first and second year program designs.
Use of teacher aides and counselors has increased. Health programs
for schoolchildren have proliferated noticeably. Six colleges and uni-
versities in the State have added new teacher training programs `in
early childhood development. Private preschool centers have
quadrupled.
In the southern part of the State where `the `black population is as
high as 30 percent, race relations have improved dramatically through
the institution of federally funded child care centers `and the work of
the community action program.
The Neighborhood Youth Corps program in West Virgini'a has
out-of-school programs in 15 counties; in-school progmms in 14 coun-
ties. During 1968-69, 1,973 persons were enrolled in the year-round
program; 5,905 in the summer programs. Again, most of the poorest
of West Virginia's counties are untouched and the problem of the
dropout goes on unabated.
Our members have also worked with the staff and enrollees in the
Job Corps centers in Charleston, Huntington, and Harpers Ferry.
We know, for example, th'at the Charleston center ha's a 5-year place-
ment record of nearly 80 percent. The center is supported by both
daily newspapers, the TV, and radio media and has had the backing
and help from many private citizens.
Its program includes many inovations: a student government `and a
court system that has been a model not only for other Job Corps
PAGENO="0112"
1544
centers but the public school system as well. The counseling, residential,
and instructional programs have been watehed by school officials, who
are beginning to use similar methods and materials in their efforts to
retain potential dropouts.
Mr. Jay Rockefeller, the secretary of state Of West Virginia stated
recently:
The Huntington Job Corps Center ranks either at the top or in the first three
of nearly every category when compared with other centers around the country.
You simply cannot talk with the young people who come here, whom we have
promised to help, who want to work, to earn their way, you cannot talk with
these young people and not be receptive to their cause.
We agree with him. Yet the Huntington Center is scheduled to close..
It is easy enough to concentrate on the high cost to train a corpsman.
However, the youths served come from the most hopeless environments.
In the lông run, the cost to the Nation would be more if corpsmen were
to become welfare clients.
We think it makes little sense to dismantle centers which after 5
years of experimenting are working well only to startall over again
with a new program.
The job training programs have not gone far enough. They have
reached too few and the training in some programs has not been very
useful for future employment. But they have served to underscore the
serious lack of vocational and technical training programs in the State
and have helped to move the public school system to develop a plan for
the expansion of programs.
For the first time in its history, the division of vocational education
in West Virginia has had a substantial increase in its budget and the
first phase of the pla.n can go through.
Mention should also be made of our "silent revolutiOn,"~the excellent
tutorial programs conducted by college and university students in
West Virginia. Operating under very small OEO grants, mOre than
600 students in West Virginia communities are giving voluntarily 3
hours a. week to tutoring deprived children on a 1 to 1 basis.
The importance of this giving to the sharing with the poor, in
building bridges and in putting young people in touch with other
people's - needs, cannot be measured. Emerging now is an offshoot
program in which potential dropouts tutor younger disadvantaged
children. WTorking in tandem with common purpose, both reap the
reward of increased reading and language skills and the reinforcement
of the incentive to learn.
The most controversial of all have been the community action pro-
grams. West Viro~inia has had its share of diffictiltics. In the beginning
there was instability in the programs: OEO guidlines changed fre-
quently, local and regional personnel worked a.t cross purposes, short-
term. funding prevented long range planning and the recruiting and
retention of administrative personnel was difficult-.
The Gieen `imendment seemed to compound the uncertainty ~nd
instability ieiigue membets have worked with sevei~a.l community action
groups. We have known frustration and disappointment. But we felt
the obstacles werenot insuperable.
We, like many others, were perhaps looking for quick results. We
feel now that, as the programs have matured, they are finding new
directions It is ~.i `itif-~ ing to know, for ex~tmple, th'tt in West Virginia
ii MCDowell :~ontity where poverty is very severe, the poor, the
PAGENO="0113"
1545
middle class, the businessmen, the school, welfare, social security and
employment security personnel, all are working together to operate a
well-rounded program.
Here nonprofessionals were trained to run the child care centers
and then went on themselves to take college courses to extend their
education. If it happens this way there, we believe it can happen
elsewhere.
Therefore, we thing the Federal Government has the responsibility
of making a long-term commitment to the sustaining of the present
impetus of the OEO programs, to adequate funding and to the search
for new directions.
The membei s of the League of Women Voters of West Virginia
will continue to support you in your efforts. Thank you for allowing
us to appear today.
Mrs. BENSON. Mrs. Waterman, president-elect of the League of
Women Voters in Iowa.
Mrs. WATERMAN. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee,
I am Mrs. Denison R. Waterman of Muscatine, Iowa, president-elect
of the League of Women Voters of Iowa and for the past 3 years State
chairman of our human resources program item.
The Iowa league has 2,569 members in 25 Iowa communities. I
believe this is the first time a member of the Iowa league has testified
before a congressional committee, and in the name of all our members
I wish to thank the committee for this opportunity to present our
views.
Chairman PERKINS. We are glad to welcome you here.
Mrs. WATERMAN. Mrs. Benson's testimony in support of H.R. 513
accurately represents the position of the Iowa league. Our support
is based on knowledge gained through 43 meetings held in our local
leagues during the past year on problems of poverty and
discrimination.
These 43 meetings represented 129 preparatory meetings of local
human resources committees-and as you veterans of the committee
system know, that is a lot of meetings.
In addition, at present, 15 of our leagues have members serving on
their local community action agency boards and every league has
members serving on other commissions or councils which bring them
into contact with OEO programs. I can vouch for the accuracy of
this information because I culled it all myself from local league annual
reports, and I have gone into this much detail in order to demonstrate
that we do know about our local situations.
It seems to us that one of the great benefitsof OEO programs is
their humanizing force. Government becomes humanized in the eyes
of the disadvantage instead of being an incomprehensible, nonrespon-
sive giant. People become other human beings instead of statistics
at best, or antagonists at worst, such as welfare recipients versus
the establishment, or blacks versus middle-class whites to use two
obvious examples.
Let me demonstrate what I mean by telling you briefly about three
Iowa programs with which I am familiar. I chose them because they
illustrate a successful spinoff and two programs very indigenous to
Iowa, a rural program and an outreach program centered in a small
town.
27-754-69-pt. 3-S
PAGENO="0114"
1546
The successful spinoff is the mothers task force, part of Waterloo's
Headstart parents. The group comprises only mothers who have
children currently in Headstart classes, but an auxiliary Headstart
alumni group has been formed, shades of our own middle-class
organization.
The mothers serve the program itself by helping with clerical work
and enrollment, and other volunteer work. There are 16 Headstart
classes and one mother from each of the 16 classes is on the policy
advisory committee. They use Waterloo's two neighborhood centers
for their meetings and for cooking and sewing classes.
They also publish a newsletter, have a speakers bureau, arrange for
babysitting and transportation in order to allow an interested mother
to get to classes or meetings, have published a cookbook featuring
economical recipes and tasty ways of using surplus foods, and run a
clothing exchange store.
Now, some of these things are being done by almost every Headstart
parents group, but these women are doing all of them and doing them
on their own. They really write their newsletter and they really run
their clothing store.
I would like to quote two of these mothers, who attended a meeting
in April, attended also by about 40 league members. They were ex-
plaining their organization to us with a great deal of pride. One of
them said: "Two years ago you couldn't have gotten me out of the
house, much less to a meeting like this. But I am not left out anymore."
The other mother replied, "That is right. Here I am at this meeting,
and I am also on a housing panel which goes around town and speaks
to groups and clubs about our housing here."
She continued, "I can't stay all afternoon for this meeting because
I have to go to my PTA-I am hospitality chairman."
These simple statements said more about assimilation into society
and better described the previous isolation in which those mothers
had lived and many still do, than all the books, lectures, television
presentations or statistics.
Second example-a rural program. Linn County, part of Hawkeye
community action program, a three-county CAP, has three centers
in the rural area and two urban centers in Cedar Rapids.
The rural centers have been highly successful; a major reason is
that the center is the only available meeting place for rural poor
people. Cities and towns with other organizations, can furnish meeting
places at libraries, schools, and Y's.
All these centers provide the following programs: Story hours for
children, adult basic education, high school completion, health clinic,
and team groups such as Boy Scouts, tutoring, band, and mother's
meetings. An extra service is provided for the rural centers. The
county department of social welfare sends a representative to spend
a half day twice a month in each of the centers, immediately follow-
ing the issuance of ADC and old age assistance checks to sell food
stamps and do additional `casework.
Rural centers `have special problems, the greatest of these in the areas
of housing and health. They need more staff because there aren't as
many volunteers available and it takes longer to travel from contact
to contact.
PAGENO="0115"
1547
In spite of this, the total outreach contacts from these centers was
3,640-1,505 first time and 2,135 followups. People who use the cen-
ters to participate in programs also think of their centers as the first
place to go in time of need. When a baby smothered in his crib, her
center was where the mother went for help; the center contacted the
father at work and the fire department.
When the members of one family learned of a son's death in Viet-
nam, they came to their center; the center informed them of pro-
cedures, services available and the role of the Army.
All of these services previously were unknown to these people.
My third example is an outreach program in a small town. There
are three outreach workers and a large number of volunteers from
Mt. Vernon, Iowa, a small community of 2,600 and the home of
Cornell College. These three workers and their volunteer helpers
service between 100 and 125 poor families, most of whom live in the
country.
This program demonstrates the cooperation among the agency, the
local government, and the people of the community-cooperation
which may have meant the difference between survival or loss of the
pi ogram There is no available center, so the different churches have
each furnished a room for a specific program or service.
The advisory council meets once a month, and all members of the
community ~re encouraged to attend and discuss common efforts and
pi oblems Attendance has been spotty, but encouraging
In addition, and a board member, the staff report on a regularly
scheduled basis. to the `city council, to keep it informed of what is
going on, so there is excellent rapport between the CAP and the city
council. A member of the advisory board is now attempting to set up
the same kind of scheduled meetings between the staff and the board
of education.
The possibilities of developing undiscovered potential have shown
up very well in this program-the sewing teacher is a member of
a low income family and two of the three paid outreach workers are
former recipients, they have graduated.
This program has served the community very well. The poor have
been brought out of their almost total isolation in the rural area and
into the community. They are learning some needed skills and using
health services. `They are also experiencing the simple pleasure of a
cup of coffee and some companionship `during, for example, a cook-
ing class, something we all take for granted.
On the other side of the coin, the advisory council includes a repre-
sentative sampling of all concerned people; and the community knows
it can attend the meetings to gain information, present ideas, or make
complaints.
To get `back to where I started, the humanizing force of OEO. In
terms of some of the large urban problems and programs, I've been
talking about little programs.
But how `do you count all of the people in the community who have
been touched? How do you evaluate the influence of better under-
standing on workable solutions? Since we are the so-called power
structure, the ones who must make the necessary judgments, write
the legislation, administer the programs, and work in our com-
PAGENO="0116"
1548
munities as volunteers in many cases, it seems as if the learning experi-
ence is almost more necessary for us than for the poor.
To the member of the city council ivho tours the housing available
for black families, to the school board member who arranges Head-
start facilities and talks to Headstart parents, to the businessman who
speaks to 25 poor young people about hiring practices, and .how to
apply for a job, to the volunteer who serves as a center aide, a poor
person is no longer a faceless statistic but another human being strug-
gling with a problem.
Through contact, it becomes a common problem. We have the legis-
lation. We hope it will be extended and funded. We believe the
exposure of many segments of our society to each other, which is
happening under OEO, given time, can make a powerful contribution
to the elimination of poverty and discrimination in our society.
(The appendix follows:)
APPENDIX TO STATEMENT OF Mus. DENISON R. W~TERMAN, MUSCATINE, IOWA
Two other programs in Iowa which I believe show great promise, if given
time to develop, are the summer youth employment programs and an integrated
Head Start program in Muscatine County, which will include migrant children.
The Head Start program in Muscatine County has really included two pro-
grams, operated under two different delegate agencies; the local CAP operated
the "regular" Head Start and the Muscatine Migrant Council the migrant Head
Start. This has not been in any way because of a philosophical belief in segre-
gated programs, but because of language difficulties and because many migrant
children come to the community after Head Start programs have begun. Con-
ditions are changing, because each year more and more migrant families leave
their mobile, crop-following life and remain in the county, but they have not
yet been successfully assimilated into the community. In response to this change,
the local CAP, which is part of a multi-county CAP, has drawn up a proposal
and asked for funding for an integrated Head Start and has planned for the
transportation requirements of getting children from migrant camps into classes
and for hiring hi-lingual teachers. This program, involving both community and
migrant families, should make a great difference in how fast, and how well,
migrant families become functioning, contributing members of the community.
Another encouraging program is Summer Youth Employment-particularly
because it has developed great cooperation among governmental agencies, the
private sector and young people from disadvantaged families. Three or four of
our largest Iowa communities started pilot programs two years ago, under the
leadership of former Governor Harold Hughes, now a member of the United
States Senate. Several more cities instituted variations of the plan last summer.
The major contribution of OEO has been to help in selection by furnishing guide-
lines so that the young people who most needed the jobs and the educational
enrichment programs were the ones who signed up. Local Community Action
Agencies also helped by processing applications and furnishing clerical help.
This encouraging spinoff is one which can become completely self-sustaining if
given sufficient time.
The Iowa League would also like to express its concern about the closing of
the Womens J~ob Corp Center in Clinton. Many of our Leagues have made tours
of the Center; Center personnel have visited our local Leagues and presented
programs. I have visited the Center, in my capacity as state Human Resources
Chairman, many times. We have been favorably impressed with the operation
of the Center, and with the students themselves. We are concerned about the
effect on the lives of the students if the program is dropped.
In a telephone conversation on April 22, Dr. William Atkins, present Center
Director, told me that seventy percent of the students at the Clinton Center
come from cities under 250,000 and sixty percent from the .South~L~~an area defined
as east of Texas and south of the Ohio River. Will facilities of their choice be
ready for all these young women in time so that their training will not be inter-
rupted and they will not be disillusioned?.
PAGENO="0117"
1549
We also believe that the environmental training in the residential centers for
young women, training in home skills such as cooking, sewing, health habits and
money management-human rehabilitation-is highly important but its effects
difficult to measure with statistics.
Mrs. BENSON. Mrs. Richardson.
Mrs. RIcilAiwsoN. With your permission I am willing to deposit
my statement with you and be ready to respond to questions.
May I remind you of what you know about Georgia already, that
although we do have a growing economy, we still rank seven ampng
the States in number of poor. An estimated 39 percent of the State's
population is in the poverty bracket and most of Georgia's poor live
outside our urban areas.
Although expenditures per pupil on education have increased, the
1966-67 figure was $408, still below the national average. And our
OEO programs operate in 134 of the 159 counties in Georgia.
Mrs. BENSON. Mrs. Warren, director of the Ohio League, and
human resources chairman.
Mrs. WARREN. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman and gentlemen and ladies.
I, too, am quite willing to file my statement, Mr. Chairman, to save
time for questions. But I would like to say that we feel it is a practical
matter to get on with this business of solving the poverty problem of
our States. There are vast areas of our State uncovered by any pro-
grams and uncoordinated almost completely with the existing State
and local agency services.
WTe feel that the very best kind of programs that have been devised
in our State as elsewhere are those community multipurpose neigh-
borhood center operations which have been innovated by the OEO
programs. We feel that no matter what happens to our basic coverage
of welfare in this country, this sort of at hand service is going to be
very much needed, people who need help need it near.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. I personally want to compliment all of you
for your statements this morning. I take it that your organization has
gone on record against closing two-thirds of the conservation centers
and one-third of the urban Job Corps centers in this country. Is that
correct, Mrs. Benson?
Mrs. BENSON. Yes, Mr. Chairman. We are not adverse to change
or to new experiments in job training but we think it would be a mis-
take to close them out before the new centers are thoroughly ready to
get going so that young people don't lose time and get lost in the shuffle.
Chairman PERKINS. That was your concern. You feel that the
youngsters that are now taking advantage of the Job Corps will get
lost in the shuffle if the new centers are not made available before we
close these out?
Mrs. BENSON. Yes. From the reports of our leagues, we know, that
many of the Job Corps centers are doing a very good job. We are con-
cerned that this may be cut off.
Chairman PERKINS. Much greater progress in the last year than the
previous year. Is that correct?
Mrs. :~N50N. Yes; this is true. ,
PAGENO="0118"
1550
Chairman PERKINS. You mentioned the 5-year extension. Of course,
there is very little controversy on this committee between the 1 and
the 5 years, but we do have some èontroversy and I personally feel,
in view of a 2-year extension last year, or 1967, that the proposed 1-year
extension is just ridiculous; that it would not give any time at all to
the CAP agencies or the people involved in trying to eliminate poverty
in the country, to wisely expend their money, or to do any worthwhile
planning.
Do you care to comment any further on that statement that you
made?
Mrs. BENSON. I `think that all of the various comments-you will
find many of these in the selection we have made and attached to my
testimony for the league.
One of the things which comes through most strongly from our
league is all over the country, no matter where `they are, is the need for
adequate time and long-range planning for security in knowing the
program is going to continue, is going to be funded both from the
point of view of the people themselves for whom the prOgrams are
intended, but also from the point of view of running the programs,
and having people on the scene to do the jobs that need to be done by
professionals or nonprofessionals who have been trained to do `these
jobs.
The uncertainty of funding, the uncertainty of the length of time
the program will be around is extremely important and where there
has not been certainty, where the funds have been cut off or have not
been provided after it had been thought would be provided, there is
`a tremendous disappointment and letdown for the people.
Chairman PERKINS. I would like to let the lady from the Morgan-
town, W. Va., who will have a center closed down, give us your view
on the closing of the center and the tenure of this legislation?
Mrs. NUGENT. I agree with Mrs. Benson, that in terms of the fund-
ing, the length of the funding, that most of our experience has been
that many of these programs have found it difficult to plan ahead and
have had difficulty finding people to hold the job. They get very
nervous if they have families to support and they know that maybe
in 6 months they will be without a job.
So this has been through the entire program, I believe, and in our
view this has been the chief difficulty in the programs; the instability
of them.
As for the Job Corps centers there, there are three ofthem that we
have had experience with in West Virginia. Each of `the leagues in
those areas have worked very directly with these people, thought that
they were very valuable, that the corpsmen who left there were very
grateful. We have a whole folder full of the letters from the Charles-
ton center.
Chairman PERKINS. Without objection, your letters will be inserted
in the record.
(The letters follow:)
WHAT JOB CORPS MEANS TO ME
To me Job Corps means hope, a new chance to be somebody, a chance to
make my dreams come true, a chance to help my family, and a new life for
the whole Chase family.
Let me tell you a little about my past life and then maybe you can see what
Job Corps has done for me. There were twelve children in my family, five
PAGENO="0119"
died, two live out of town, and five live with my mother. We are on the welfare
and we receive $108 each month and some commodities I had been trying
to get into the Job Corps for a year Even though I was young I realized that
the Job Corps was my only hope My mother and father are separated My
brother dropped out of school in the 7th grade and he is now 16 Until I came
to the Job Corps I had no room of my own no money every month and no way of
knowing about food from day to day I knew people with whom I could have
lived and who would have given me much I wanted to be self reliant to be
able to say this is mine because I have worked for it Job Corps has made
this possible
If it had not been for Mrs V. B. Attwell of Houston, Texas, I would not
have made it this far. I feel the Lord is with me. I used to pray `every night
for hope and Ibad no idea Job `Corps would be the hope I have been looking for.
Here I hope to learn Basic Ed., my voëation, nursing, `human relations.
The words of Abraham Lincoln will be my creed; "I'll `study `and prepare and
some day my chance will come." The Job Corps means hope. To some people
it's a joke. But I know the Job Corps means hope.
SOLITA MAE CHASE,
Nurse Aide, ,~t. Thomas Hospital,
Houston, Teo.
DECEMBER 17, 1968.
Mr. FREDERICK M. HUFFORD, `
Manager, Placement-Enrollee Administration, Job Corps Center for Women,
Charleston, W. Va.
DEAR MR. HUFFORD: I received your letter yesterday here at the office. I am
happy to think that you haven't forgotten me. I hope that all is well with you.
As you know I am still with Mr. Rockefeller. I can't begin to tell you what an
experience it has been. I never dreamed that I would be doing such things like
writing a letter to Senato'r Edward Kennedy for Mr. Rockefeller's signature,
talking with Governor Rockefeller from New York, meeting Jay's mother and
sister and Sharon's brother, Roger Percy, on Election night, or receiving a
Christmas gift from Sharon and Jay, and `being among the first to know that they
are expecting their first child in June. I knOw that there will never be another
job that will equal this one. I will always be grateful for the opportunity to be a
small part of such a wonderful person's ideas and goals. I have seen ideas born
and brought to maturity and reality. I have been close to the type of integrity
that isn't found every day, especially in one of Mr.' ROckefeller's position. My
mistakes have been numerous, but educational; and have been met with patience
and understanding. As you have probably guessed by now I have much respect and
admiration for my employer.
As for the part that Job Corps has played in this, well I would say that the
most im'portant thing I learned while there, was coming to realize that there were
still people who cared what happened to other people. I suppose you could say
this gave me self-confidence in some respect, that, and the willingness to stay and
study even though it meant that I wouldn't see my children for a year. The cur-
fews and restrictions imposed upon me for the first time taught me more self-
discipline, which I nee'ded. There is always a good and bad aspect to every situa-
tiOn and idea, such as Job Corps. But if the skeptics can find but one good thing
about such ideas, then how cain they say it is nothing but a waste. If Job Corps
has helped only one person to hold their `head up a little higher, or walk down
the street a little prouder, then I say all the bad things, which must accompany
anything worthwhile, are in themselves, worth tolerating. If, I hadn't come to
Job Corps, no doubt my salary would have never exceeded $35.00 a week.
I haven't had a chance to use everything I learned there. My responsibilities'
are somewhat restricted, which is understandable from the experience point of
view. But I am sure I could handle the duties of the other girls if given the
chance. My slow typing and no shorthand are "black clouds".
Considering my future plans depends a lot on my personal situation. I will
`most likely stay: in' Charleston, preferably working in an atmosphere such as
this one. I feel that' I would be' dissatisfied with a job in Keypunch now. I like to
meet people, and not feel so `much like a machine. The unavailability of Keypunch
jobs ~1so helped me cOme to this conclusion. I have thought of going back to
school but nothing definite has come of it That depends on my personal situation
also
PAGENO="0120"
1552
One suggestion that I might make is that a better understanding be given to
the enrollees concerning what they want to study. Especially to the ones who
have not made up their minds, `and talking with the ones who have in lengthy
discussions `about the pros and cons of each `and every vocation offered. I know
that if someone had sat down and talked with me about this, I would never have
chosen Keypunch, but the standard secretarial courses. Then again, living in a
town of, this size with a limitation on available jobs in this field, would be a
deciding factor. IBM sounds so very important and prosperous. Too late I've
found that shorthand and typing assure the most income, unless you go into
programming, etc. Still I don't regret this too much; it looks' good on an
application!
I suppose I had best close this letter and return to my filing. Many thanks for
everything, and a happy Christmas to you and your family~
Sincerely,
CARLA 1\IORRIS.
CHARLESTON JOB Couus CENTER INFORMATION FORM
I. Present Job:
(a) Full Name of Company: John D. Rockefeller IV.
(b) Address of Company: 1416 Virginia St., E. Charleston, W. Va.
(c) Your Job Title: Receptionist.
(d) Wage or Salary: $300.00 mo.
(e) Date Started to Work: June 19, 1968.
II. Immediately Previous Job:
(a) Full Name of Company: (Before entering Job Corps) Neighborhood Youth
Corps.
(b) Address of Company: Winfield, W. Va.
(c) Your Job Title: Office Asst.
(ci) Wage or Salary: $35.00 weekly.
(e) Date Started to Work: Oct. 1966.
III. Your Present Address: P.O. Box 533, Hometown, W. Va. 25109.
IV. Marital Status: Divorced. Married Name: Mrs. Carla Faye Morris.
V. School Status: N/A. Full Name and Address of School: N/A.
VI. What kind of progress are you. making toward. your goals in life? Very Good.
T7111. How much of your job success and. success in life do you. t/i ink you. owe
to your Job Corps Training? A great deal of it.
Please do not forget to include your letter with this form. Please feel free to
write your letter on the other side of this form.. Thank you.
CARLA MORRIS.
Mrs. NUGENT. We don't `see how it is possible to replace these centers
which have been 5 years in the making in a few short months. WTe think
also perhaps that some of the problems inherent in any of those pro-
grams where you have people coining from severe poverty will be
inherent in any program, dropout problems, and so forth.
So, therefore, it just seems to us that to close one down to open' a new
one doesn't really do the job.
Chairman PERKINS. Mrs. Warren, do you care to comment?
Mrs. WARREN. Thank you. Yes, I do.
WTe are very concerned about our two conservation center Job Corps
projects in Ohio, one is the Vesuvius Job Corps center in Pedro and
the center in Port Clinton.
It seems to me that. the continuity of person-to-person interest these
boys achieve for the first time in their lives at. these centers regardless
of whether or not they drop out of the program, they have gained some-
thing they never had a chance to have before, someone cares, t.his they
have a chance of making a success and being a dignified person.
We were of course pleased that the Women's Job Corps training
center in Cleveland didn't get the: ax. It seemed to happen rather fast
and we were awfully pleased. We didn't even have a chance to work on
that.
PAGENO="0121"
1553
But we really do feel that these other centers are doing a valuable
piece of work and even saving the Government some money in the
work they. are doing-perhaps not saving but at least it is not a total
loss. I know that the Vesuvius boys went in and cleaned up a whole
neighboring town after a very devasting flood.
Chairman PERKINS. How do you feel about 1 year versus 5 on the
extension of this legislation?
Mrs. WARREN. I would like to see it extended 5 years, absolutely.
Chairman PERKINS. Mrs. Richardson?
Mrs. RICHARDSON. Yes, we do not have a Job Corps center as the
committee and the Chairman know. I would like to speak for the young
people concerned in the Atlanta-Fulton County agency and it has been
trying and working real hard in the last 4 or 5 weeks to get in touch
with the boys and try to take care of them during this gap period.
I would like very much to speak a little longer to the 5 year exten-
sion. Many programs in Georgia due to community attitudes are just
getting off the ground. We are so happy that 130 of these 159 counties
now have them. We do have the fine, comprehensive health center in
Atlanta-Fulton County which is just getting going, but other places
have made similar applications and for this reason we do feel the
5-year extension is necessary, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. Mrs. Waterman?
Mrs. WATERMAN. I would also like to spe.ak to the Job Corps, Mr.
Chairman, because we have a Jth Corps center at Clinton, Iowa, which
is slated to be closed.
Since I live very close to Clinton, I have had an opportunity to
visit it many times, as have many of our leagues. When I heard about
the closing, I contacted Dr. William Atkins, who is the present center
director. In a telephone conversation with him on April 22, he told
me that 70 percent of the students at the Clinton center come from
cities under 250,000 and 60 percent from the south, an area he defined
as east of Texas and south of the Ohio River.
Will facilities of their choice be ready for all these young women
in time so that their training will not be interrupted and they will
not be disillusioned since so many of them are really from what we
would consider to be rural areas? We are afraid that many centers will
not be available for them at all.
We also believe that the environmental training in the residential.
centers for young women, training in home ~kills such as cooking,
sewing and health habits and money management really-this is human
rehabilitation-is highly important. But you can't really measure its
effect in statistics.
Chairman PERKINS I have one further question. Do you feel that
your comprehensive health centers and the Headstart program and
the Job Corps should be administered by the Office of Economic
Opportunity or by some other existing governmental agency, old-line
agency? How do you feel on that, Mrs. Benson?
Mrs. BENSON. In general, our leagues have from their experience in
these programs~ been opposed to the too fast moving of the new
experimental programs from OEO to old-line agencies.
It depends in part.onthe ability `of the old-line agency to take over
the job and do it as well, if not better, than-
PAGENO="0122"
1554
Chairman PERKINS. Just assume that the proposal of the Secretary
of HEW and the administration is carried out and Headstart placed
in the Office of the Secretary of HEW; and the Job Corps was rnove.d
to the Department of Labor and the comprehensive health centers
were moved to the Surgeon General's Office, these old-line agencies.
And wha.t would be your view on that assumption?
Mrs. BENSON. Of course, the Job Corps is administered by the Office
of Economic Opportunity presently. We would be opposed to the
moving of these at the present time, unless there develops, which so
far there has not developed, a clearly good reason for so doing.
We think the Office of Economic Opportunity should be strength-
ened. Until these programs have reached the stage where they are
fully developed and able to be transferred effectively to the old-line
agencies, if an agency like Labor or HEW is really organized to carry
on with the program since the program has been developed and is
continuing, that is a different thing.
Chairman PERKINS. Mrs. Green.
Mrs. GREEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I am sorry that I came in late and didn't hear all of the statements.
Do I conclude that the league is in favor and that the board has offi-
cially acted on the proposal of a 5-year extension.
Mrs. BENSON. Yes, Mrs. Green.
Mrs. GREEN. All of you at the table favOr the 5-year extension.
I noticed in your statement, Mrs. Benson, that you said, that modi-
fications and changes undoubtedly are always in order. Does the
national league or do any of the State leagues make any suggestions
for change or are you recommending that just the bill be extended
as it is for theS years?
Mrs. BENSON. Yes; we are recommending that the bill be' extended as
it is for5 years.
What we are encouraging is that the legislation encourage the Office
of Economic Opportunity and any other agencies involve.d with
the poverty programs to constantly try' to improve the programs. But
we think this can't be done unless there is adequate funding and
adequate certainty that the programs will be continuing more than
a 1-year period or even a 2-year period~
Mrs. GREEN. It is even more important `changes be made to make it
more effective. Is there limited funding, it seems to me we would
have to get as much as we could.
Mrs. BENSON. Yes; the more limited the funds, the more important
it is to make the programs effective. But this is a point of no return,
it seems to us, that if the funds are so limited that it is a `lost cause
before you even begin, this is why we are very concerned that the
funding beadequate. . `
Mrs. `GREEN. But you want the `bill just extended as it is without
a single change for 5 years ~
Mrs. BENSON. I don't think our position is that everything in `a
piece of legislation `is exactly what' it ought to be, but in general
we support the provisions of the bill. We don't have any recommenda-
tions for specific changes other than `those' which I outlined in my
statement which have to do mostly with providing stability in funding
and certainty about the `ongoing nature Of th~ program and encourag-
ing changes and modifications that may need to be made as the `pro-
grams go along.
PAGENO="0123"
1555
Mrs. GREEN. I have great respect for the national league and the
league of women voters in my own State. I think it is the best
women's organization we have in the country in terms of legislative
study and activity. But I must say that I think it is a bit unrealistic
to say to this committee that you recommend an extension for 5 years
without any changes and it would be more helpful if study were given
to alternative programs or procedures that might be more effective
in the administration of the very limited funds which are available.
Job Corps, itself, I think, is an example. We are continuing to have
900,000 dropouts a year. We reach 35,000, maybe; maybe half of
those are reached effectively. And to pretend that this is a successful
program with youngsters who need help, I think, is just missing
the point.
Mrs. BENSON. I did not mean to give the impression that the league
of women voters was pretending that there was nothing wrong with
the Job Corps. program, only that they have really just barely, in
many cases, gotten started.
Mrs. Richardson just pointed out that because of the local corn-
inunity attitudes in many communities in `Georgia, CAP agencies are
just getting off' their feet. Our concern is that these programs go on,
that those who are administering the programs work at improving
them constantly; but much of this has been a problem of internal
administration, internal organization of better methods of operating.
These are just now beginning to work and just now beginning to
pay off.
This is why we are concerned that the whOle thing not be cut off
short `before it has had a chance to develop. `We have no intention
of ever thinking that the programs are perfect as ,they are. But a
great many problems that have occurred during the course of insti-
tuting the programs of implementing the legislation originally are
being cleared up.
It is taking time, but much of the trouble has been because of the
uncertainty of the future' of the programs `and also the constant-
what seems to us-the rather, constant ,emphasis on the troubles in
the various programs when there is Job Corps or Headstart or what-
ever it happens to be rather than the emphasis on the positive which
our leagues have reported on very fully.
The major things are adequate funding and security of extension of
the programs before you can worry about the other difficulties which
do need to be worked on all the time, but we are operating now in a
whole new field of endeavor. We have never tried to do this kind
of thing before.
Mrs. GREEN. Has the national or has any State league given con-
sideration to alternatives to the Job Corps or the possibility of the
transfer of the Job Corps to departments of vocational education
at State level, for example?
Mrs. BENSON. We have not done so specifically as yet `because we
think that the Job Corps is still in an experimental stage and we
have been able to `see through the visits and observations and evalu-
ations done by our leagues who live near enough to Job Corps centers
to actually see them operate, to see the changes taking place at the
Job Corps. ` ` "
At Camp Kilmer, for instance, I have a letter from the State chair-
man of our work and the change in Camp Kilmer over the past years
PAGENO="0124"
1556
since it was first established. It isn't that we are opposed to the trans-
fer forever of Job Corps from OEO to some other agency, whether
it is vocational education or whether it is Department of Labor or
whatever it is; it is that we don't think it is time to make vast; and
an abrupt change in this program while it is in the stage where obvi-
ously it is improving.
It seems to me that the impatience of people in general hastens or
forces them to or makes them want to make changes in brandnew pro-
grams and 2 or 3 or.4 years or 5 years is not that long for a program
of a kind we have never had before.
We are opposed to abrupt and quick changes before adequate pro-
visions `have been made to get other programs going to acomplish
theoretically the same things and we think there should be more time
given to these programs to prove themselves.
Mrs. G~nEx. I would like to make a cOmment. I think as I said it
is very unrealistic to expect the Congress to extend this for 5 years
without changes and I think alternative suggestions would be. helpful.
I, myself, favor the transfer of the Job Corps and will work toward
that end because I think that it is not an abrupt and a quick change.
in fact, in my judgment, it has been too slow in coming. For 5 years
we have pretended to meet the problem of dropout and we have done
it most ineffectively.
In those 5 years, we have five times 900,000 more kids that are on
the streets unemployable. It seems to me that if we could make the
Job Corps or a program for youngsters more effective in preventing
dropout, that it would be time and money and effort well spent.
I have no more questions.
Chairman PEu~INs. Mr. Ayres.
Mr. ATRES. Mr. Chairman, no man is ever anxious to have a con-
flict with a woman's point of view, particularly an organized grOup of
women, which you ladies certainly are.
But I must agree with my colleague, Mrs. Green, without being a
coward and trying to hide behind her position.
I think it is a little unfair, ladies, to assume that because some Job
Corps are being closed, that Government isn't interested in the wel-
fare of these youngsters. The name Job Corps, of course, infers that
they are going to get jobs. We had quite an extensive survey made by
Mr. Lou Harris-I presume you are familiar with his findings-that
there really is not a whole lot of staying power in the corps.
What is being attempted now is not to cause harm to any individual
who is eligible for the corps, but rather to `try to assist him in "learn-
ing to earn" so that after he has completed his work, that he will
be able to really `hold a productive job.
Many, of us ,on the committee, including the chairman, who has
worked very hard and long hours on this problem, felt several yea.rs
ago that more effort should be made to determine what jobs were in
short supply and what could be done to, train the jobless to qualify
for one of these positions.
At the present time, ladies, we all know that we have approximately
3 million people unemployed who are supposedly unemployable. But
we have over 3 million jobs in short supply. The problem is can we
dovetail those that, are now unemployed into the labor `market so
that they can hold these jobs?
PAGENO="0125"
1557
I know what Secretary Shultz has in mind. His is a very difficult
task. After all, we are only talking here on the Job Corps, of about
34,000 affected individuals. With the closing of the Corps, only about
17,000 will have to be transferred to other training places.
The Secretary testified over in the Senate that a billion dollars
would be available to assist in these transfers. So don't get dis-
couraged. In my judgment, Mrs. Green is absolutely right. You don't
stand any chance of a 5-year extension of this program. The Presi-
dent has requested a year, Mr. Chairman. We might get up a little
farther than that.
But there are a lot of sincere, conscientious people who really want
to correct and learn from the experience that we have had in the
operation of many of these programs.
The residential centers are going to be keyed to training these indi-
viduals to jobs. That will be our main thrust. I think we can all agree
that it is a nice social aspect to take the youngster off the streets for
awhile, but what happens to him 6 months after he is back? That
is the vital key to it.
If we are going to break the ~pockets of poverty, these dropouts,
these people who are disadvantaged, are going to have to learn to
earn and they are going to have to learn to hold the job that is avail-
ble. We must lower the number of unemployed.
Thank you very much for coming. I know that both the Democrats
and the Republicans are truly concerned that everyone is given an
opportunity in this country to earn a livelihood.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Dellenback?
Mr. DEILENBAOK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mrs. Benson and ladies, it is good to see you again. One of the re-
ports I will make to you before I make a few comments and ask a few
questions is to indicate that your chapters out in my district in Oregon
are still alive. I was in Roseburg, Oreg., last Friday and spent an
hour being at least interrogated if not inquisitioned by your chapter
there and we had a very, very interesting and I think very valuable
discussion on some of the, current programs that I think from the
national office you have directed your chapters to make on a local
basis. I can assure you in the fourth district of Oregon they are fol-
lowing it out.
Let me direct my questions to Mrs. Benson and if you have any
comments that anybody else should make, I would welcome replies.
Have you had a chance to look at Secretary Shultz' testimony on
this Job Corps before the committee?
Mrs. BENSON. Very briefly.
Mr. DELLENBAOK. I personally feel that his method of going at the
thinking, of his problem was excellent. I thought his testimony was
exceptionally good because instead of just starting from conclusions
he was giving the committee the benefit of his thinking of his con-
sultants as to why.
You know that he pointed out the four basic essentials that he felt
the Job Corps had been based upon and they were that complete resi-
dential service is essential for some of .these people `and that the youth
should be completely resolved, not only from the family but long
distances from neighborhood, and thirdly, that the youth need com
PAGENO="0126"
1558
prehensive and intensive support services, and fourthly, that each
residential center should be substantially self-sufficient.
Mrs. BENSoN. We don't disagree with that at all. Our only basic
concern is tl1at the change will be too rapid. We have had experience
in the total poverty area regardless of whether it is Job Corps, Head-
start or what have you.
We have had a lot of cumulative experience where sometimes things
have been started too fast without enough advanced preparation. It
took a very long time to institute the Job Corps centers to begin with.
Our concern was that the present centers would be closed abruptly
before the new centers were ready topo.
This suggestion of the establishment of the many centers in the
urban areas was made only a very short while ago. Our concern is
that they will not really be ready to be operating by July 1, so we
are only saying that we would hope that the old centers would not be
closed down before the new centers are really ready to pick up and take
over and not lose the kind of time you lose when people are left to
drift for awhile.
Mr. DELLENBACK. So, then, do I read you correctly as saying that
you agree with not only the four point analysis which I touched on,
from Secretary Shultz' testimony, but the rest of the thinking that
he has set forth in his testimony, too, as to which of those basic funda-
mentals upon which the Job Corps was built were sound and which
of them they felt experience had showed were not sound and there-
fore which changes ought to be achieved? Do you go also with Mr.
Shultz on these?
Mrs. BENSON. I am not prepared to agree or disagree point by point
with Mr. Shultz unless I have it front of me.
Mr. DELLENBACK. I don't mean to be inquisitioning you, except to
point out to the members of the league who are here that I would
urge every one of you to read very carefully what I think is the most
comprehensive, analytical approach to the question of what ought
to be done in this area, that this committee, while I have been able to
sit here part of the time and not being here all of the time, what I have
been able to hear so far, it is excellent because it is exactly the type
of approach to this specific problem that in my opinion and experience
the league demonstrates.
Chairman PERKINS. Would the gentleman yield?
Mr. DELLENBACK. I will be glad to yield to the chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. I think we might as well let it be understood
that it is our contention, that the so-called minicenters may be useful,
but in my judgment, they will not be useful for this hard-core young-
ster who needs to be taken out of his particular community and gotten
into a new environment. He needs the type of training where trained
people can have their hands on that youngster 24 hours a day.
These so-called minicenters, residential centers, 5 days a week in
a metropolitan area of the country are going to recruit some people
who need training in those communities, but transportation and the
dropout rate are going to be tremendous there.
But the point is they are not going to recruit this hard-core young-
ster that we have in the Job Corps. They are not going to train that
hard core type youngster. Mrs. Benson is exactly right in her view-
point that we ought to get these centers in operation and let them
PAGENO="0127"
1559
demonstrate first whether they ~re going to reach the hard-core young-
ster that the Job Corps is now serving. That is her statement, as I
understand her viewpoint. And I think you, Mrs. Benson, and the
League of Women Voters are 100 percent right.
Let them demonstrate and not experiment any further. In my judg-
ment the experiment will turn out to be a complete failure and throw
another $70 or $100 million in capital investment down the drain.
We don't want to see it go down the drain.
We are making progress. We can use these additional small centers.
We can use plenty of them.
I just wish we had our vocational facilities expanded three or four
times. Youngsters are graduating from high school `and cannot get in
the vocational-educational center in Ashland, Ky. That is the case
throughout this Nation. `
We are dealing with the type of individual here that deserves spe-
cial attention. I want `to compliment you for coming in here and
defending this type of individual.
Mr. DELLENBACK. May I go on, please. I appreciate the chairman's
sincerity in what he has said. But I would again commend to the
members of the league who are here that you look at Secretary Shultz'
testimony and understand from what he has .said that there is no in-
tention of abandoning residential care for those young people who
need it. This is not an abandonment of such a procedure.
It is a case of analyzing what the situation has been, of leaning on
what polls have been made by. Mr. Harris and leaning on the studies
that have just been made by the General Accounting Office `in looking
at that which is in existence and has been in existence, trying to take
from that which we have learned the benefits and keep those benefits,
and then take the weak points that have already shown up and modify
that which is so that it will do even a better job.
This was alluded to by Mrs. Green. I would emphasize in part of
what she said and go beyond it and say we are not living in an ideal
utopia. We here in the Congress, while we deal with immense amounts
of money, are just plain not in a position where we can appropriate
limitless amounts for every good purpose in which we believe.
We are constantly facing because of the great breadth of demands
limited amounts which are available for each program. We face two
great pressures on us as we seek to look at this program and what has
been several years of experience, not 20 years so that we can say over
the scope of the last 20 years we have learned this and now finally we
make change, but we are facing the fact that we have limited amounts
of money that we can use for these purposes.
And secondly, each year that goes `by only a fraction of the young
people who need help `of one kind or another are getting help. They do
not all need what it is that is involved in residential centers. Some of
them clearly need this. But some of them need a great deal more help.
A great many more need help and some need different kinds of help.
What is now being sought to be accomplished is to build ~ the
studies of that which has been in existence-and don't be mislead into
thinking that there is an abandonment of the residential center. There
is a continuation of `the residential center as part of a coordinated pro-
gram, ~but instead of making every one of these centers a self-sufficient
unit and entity unto itself `and thus duplicating things that can be
PAGENO="0128"
1560
more efficiently used by taking benefits and advantages of other serv-
ices and weldmg them in, instea.d of making every young person go
~ miles from his place of residence, and in many instances Thiding that
this is backfiring instead of serving what was intended for the benefit,
the programs that are here outlined by Mr. Shültz are an attempt to
meld together and serve more young people so that we don't each year
that goes by lose the thousands of young people in each year's crop
whom we can't afford to lose.
Mrs. BENSON. We are fully in favor with that, Mr. Dellenback,
and I said m my testimony that we are fully in favor of making
changes based on experience. We are fully in favor of improving on
what we have already accomplished and of making changes where
changes are needed and learning from what was learned and going on
ahead. We are fully in favor of this.
Mr. DELLEXBAOK. Although I realize you will go further, I don't
mean to stop you there, I want to emphasize what you have just now
said. You are fully in favor of learning from experience and making
changes on the basis of what experience has shown us.
Now go ahead.
Mrs. BENSON. We have been saying that now, ever since we first
started to testify on the economic opportunity amendments and on the
OEO and poverty programs. That is really all I had to say. I don't
think we are being misled.
Our concern as I said was that there would not be a loss because of
abrupt changes or closing of some of the centers. We know it is not
proposed that they all be closed.
Mr. DELLENBAOK. May I say in regard to that, again I quote from
Secretary Shultz' testimony, or paraphrase what he had to say. He has
indicated that they are devoting a great deal of effort to being certain
that every young person who is now in a center which will be closed
will be given alternative services. They are counseling with them, they
are trying to make sure that none of these young people who want to
go into another allied type of training will be lost.
So there is a careful effort being made to see that there is none of this
loss to~ which you refer. If you look at the totality of the program that
is involved in this proposed amendment, we will thud as I am sure you
will realize that a number of thousand of additional young people will
be served in this year by this comprehensive treatment than would, be
served under the present plaimin~ under Job Corps alone.
So we are dealing with some additional young people by wiser utiliza-
tion of dollars. The proposal is that more young people can be bene-
fited. We can hope then that having learned so far in these years we
can as the next several years march ahead learn still more and thus
be able to proceed with even additional changes. We can't wait for
eternity to roll by before we make changes.
This is, if you will, one of the reasons we feel so strongly that the
extension should not be a 5-year extension because the Congress, once
it is locked into a program, finds itself in a difficult situation to bring
about change.
I doubt for a moment the complete good `will of the chairman. He
has said if we put together a s-year program, we in this committee will
always be ready, and if he is still chairman under those circumstances,
I know that he will live up to his commitment in this particular
regard.
PAGENO="0129"
1561
But the point is, this is but one body. The mere fact that we will con-
sider changes by no means means that those changes can be brought
about or will be even considered by the other body. What we seek to
do is to extend the program like this long enough to give us the bene.
fits and yet not so long that because of somewhat archaic procedure
we find ourselves frozen in the things that we feel ought to be changed
but which `will not be changed. We want a blend `of these.
We feel earnestly, not that the program is bad, not that you can't
point out young people who have been benefited `by it at all, but that
there are changes.
I quote you or `go back to your testimony at thi's time. We feel
strongly that the procedure ought to permit this type of change to be
made and even ought to require the Congress to consider those changes
instead of `being able to say, "Other `wheels are squeaking more loudly,
let us wait another year or 3 or some time in the future before we
consider a change." This is difficult, as you see.
I expect every lady in the `audience has things she would like to say
`at this particular time. You see how archaic the procedure is. You are
locked in. You can't say `it. [Laughter.]
Mrs. WARREN. Mr. `Chairman, I would like to comment at the
risk of seeming idealistic `or naive in terms of Mrs. Green's remark that
in Ohio we have such a `big problem and I know it is not unusually big
in relation to the other States with unemployed young people, par-
ticularly in our urban centers, that I d'on't think you can talk real-
istically or practically in terms `of today's social problem's, in term of
the totality of program's. You `have to talk about the `totality of prob-
lems, human problems.
We need no't only Jth Corps centers. We are now only serving about
300 young `men in these centers that are under question. We need
minicenters, too. We need satisfactorily improved vocational educa-
tion and technical education. We nee'd `more sophisticated equipment in
our high schools, in our technical schools. We need a dispersal of this
kind of training throughout our State.
We aren't getting very far in spite of some proposals. We are work-
ing in our league for these things in our States. `So I don't want you
to get the idea that we are only working on thi's program, this exten-
sion, this `bill, `as a panacea for all of these problems.
But we do not want to see this particular `program curtailed because
it isn't enough as it is. We need more. I think that we think in Ohio
that it is simply unrealisti'c to think we are going to avoid serious up-
heavals in our society. We are just `as angry as our young people on
this, whether they are moderate or radical. We are tired and sick of
seeing the discrepancy between our avowed purpose here and our
performance. It `is time we go't on with the jo'b in a realistic manner.
Mr. DELLENBACK. May I commend you and the league for your
earnestness and sincerity and not just talking about it and doing some-
thing about it.
I would urge that you direct most of your efforts to the Appropria-
tions Committee of this body. I would urge also, and I really mean
this most sincerely, that every lady in attendance this morning make
it a `point to secure a copy of Secretary Shui'tz' testimony. Every lady
should read this because I think it is eloquent and talks to some of the
points you are making.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
27-754-69-pt. 3-9
PAGENO="0130"
1562
Chairman PERKINS. Let me make one additional comment; that
there is no doubt in my mind about the good faith of Secretary Shultz.
In fact, I am most hopeful, and I want to see him be made one of the
great Secretaries of Labor in the country. But when you read his
testimony, you have to conclude that it is just begging the issue. We
welcome these training centers in this country that lie proposes to
build. But he has not convinced me and I don't think anybody else,
except some of our minority friends, that these so-called minicenters
are going to serve the type of youngster that the Job Corps is now
serving.
lYe need to expand the facilities. I want to compliment him for that,
but at the same time, it is a great mistake to close dow-n two-thirds
of the conservation centers. I say to you that it has never been thought
through by the people who have made this proposal.
They close them down under some studies that are out of date, made
on 1967 data. The General Accounting Office made some statements
that there is only some conservation work being done. They are not
getting the type of training that they should be receiving and that the
placement record is not as good as it should be. All of their arguments
for closing these conservation centers will not stand up under the true
facts in the case. ~ot even as to the cost of maintaining an enrollee.
And to say that we are going to place all of these 17.500 youngsters,
or a great portion of those youngsters, that will not be permitted to
graduate, into other centers within a period of months, just does not
make good sense. I will tell you the reason why.
Anybody that knows how to calculate in the fifth grade can reason
this out. They are closing down the centers that have a capacity for
2-year enrollees for 17,500. According to the Secretary's testimony, his
own testimony, he says we hope within a period of 6 months to recruit
or take care of about 4,500 and within another 6 months maybe get it
up to double that figure, or approximately 10,000.
How does that compare with the enrollees under the Job Corps? It
is just about a 60- or 70-percent reduction. It will be only a few months
if this proposal is permitted to go through to prove that his testimony
is just wrong as it can possibly be, from the experience that some of
us have had here with the Job Corps, since it has been inaugurated.
The statements made about how soon they could inaugurate these
centers and so forth, and the experience is that takes three and four
times as long.
I am hopeful that we can prevent the Secretary from committing
this great mistake, which it will be, because he is going to turn more
than half of these youngsters out on the streets. It is a different type of
training altogether that he is proposing to set up.
It is going to take at least 3 years for these so-called minicenters
before he will have the experience to know how to deal with this hard-
core youngster.
Mr. SOI~RLE. Will the chairman yield?
Chairman PERKINS. Yes.
Mr. SCHERLE. Mr. Chairman, first of all, I would like to welcome
Mrs. Waterman, of Muscatine, to their Nation's Capital, Washington-
and all the ladies from Iowa.
Chairman PERKINS. You have the floor. Go ahead.
Mr. ScHERr~. I wasn't about to relinquish it. [Laughter.]
PAGENO="0131"
1563
I have served with the very capable and excellent Iowa Senate
majority floor leader, David Stanley, in the Iowa House. When you go
home, please give him my kind regards.
I am quite surprised that the chairman this morning is having such
little faith, particularly with a change of administration. I could only
recall that when the Job Corps centers were started in 1964, it was
started on a promise, and certainly without a plan, but lots of money.
`We have had testimony at various times before this committee that
many contracting agencies had ultimatums to set up agencies and
Job Corps centers for as high as 2,000 and ~,000 young men and
women. Some accomplished this in a 3-month period of time.
Last year, under the Johnson administration, 16 Job Corps centers
were closed down with no plan for minicenters or absorption. This year,
we do plan on closing down some Job Corps centers, but we do have
plans and we do have places for these yeoung people to go.
Chairman PERKINS. I think you ought to tell the committee who did
it that the committee places a limitation and the ceiling on the Job
Corps enrollees.
Mr. SCHERLE. There will still be remaining at least 54 or 55 Job
Corps centers. I have taken my calculations here and this will be an
absorption of about 300 people for each Job Corps center, not even
including the 30 minicenters that are planned.
I think the chairman is trying to drag a "red herring" across the
facts. I can't necessarily go along with his thinking at all.
The problem that the Congress is faced with today, as explained
so eloquently by my good friend and colleague, Mr. Dellenback, from
Oregon, is that we are working with a limited dollar.
We realize the value of education and jobs for our young people.
By the same token, it is difficult for us to continue, particularly with
some of the job centers having such high costs, with the same old
programs.
Our primary concern is to educate and train as many youngsters
as we possibly can, with the limited amount of money available. We
know that we can train perhaps maybe two or three youngsters in
other job-training programs with the cost involved today ($8,400) in
the Job Corps center.
I have no misgivings whatsoever that these young people will not.
be placed if they wish to get job training. I have no doubts whatso-
ever that they will not be given the opportunity to finish their
education.
I wouldn't have it any other way. We have a better plan this year
than was offered to young people last year when 10,000 were turned
out in the streets. We are not going to provide that kind of treatment
for them.
`We are going to continue on to make sure these people are equipped,.
trained, and placed in real jobs.
This is our objective and our responsibility.
Chairman PERKINS. I want to say that it is the Congress, the com-
mittee that placed the ceiling limitations on the number of enrollees-
because of the objections of this particular committee.
I want to share my part of the responsibility and I want the
gentleman from Iowa to bear his part of the responsibility for insist-
ing on the ceilings that have been placed on the Jobs Corps' enrollees.
PAGENO="0132"
1564
I am talking about last year and the year before. I am talking
about 1967 when we did this t.hing. And the enrollees that took effect
last year.
Mr. SOHERLE. As long as we are thinking about the future of the
young people in this country, I don't think there should be a limit
on opportunity for any of them.
Chairman PEIUUNs. I agree with you. That is why I say we are
begging the issue.
Mr. SCHERLE. I will yield to the gentlelady from Oregon, Mrs.
Green.
Mrs. GREEN. I am not sure I want to get into this crossfire.
[Laughter.]
But I would like to point out that the ceiling as I recall it is 41,000.
To the best of my knowledge they have only been up to the 41,000 for
about a 2-week period before there was a vote on the bill in 1967 in
this committee.
I think that the present enrollment is about 34,000 or 35,000. So it
could be 6,000 or 7,000 more but my information is that they are
having great trouble recruiting the people; so this maybe ought to
be taken into consideration, too.
Chairman PERKINS. Woulcl the gentlelady yield?
Mr. STEIGER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
If I may read the section of the statute which the committee corn-
posed. It is contained in section 117, "And the Director shall not use
any funds made available to carry out this program for the fiscal year
ending June 30, 1968, in a manner that will increase the residential
capacity of Job Corps centers above 45,000 enrollees."
So I hope the record, Mr. Chairman, would be made crystal clear
that it was not this committee that imposed a limitation except as a
maximum which at this point is not being matched by 34 or 11,000, if
my math is right. There are now about 34,000 enrollees, so I deeply
regret the chairman's feeling that it was the committee's choice. It was
not. Let us be clear. That decision was one made by the previous
administration, by OEO, regarding the emphasis that they were going
to place on jobs except not on a limitation on the Job Corps.
Mrs. GREEN. May I ask the gentleman, is it true that the enrollment
has never exceeded 41,000? My recollection certainly is that in 1967
at the time of voting in Congress, the Job Corps Director tried to
bring it up to somewhere around 40 or 40,500, but it never went beyond
that. This ought to be taken into consideration, too. Has it been diffi-
cult to recruit?
Mr. STEIGER. If I recall, as a matter of fact, the gentlewoman is
correct; it was not, to the best of my knowledge, that figure. I think we
had quite a discussion on some of the shenanigans that went on within
OEO that attempted to help figure people twice to put that figure at
the highest maximum level possible.
Mrs. GREEN. May I respond. I think it was my amendment. The
discussion at the time reflected great concern over the outrageous costs
of the Job Corps operating expense only. In my State of Oregon,
the operating expenses per enrollee per year was $17,000. Some of
us had the old-fashioned idea that if we could help several youngsters
for $17,000 instead of one, maybe i.t would be a wiser expenditure
of money and a better alternative plan. Capital investment costs were
very great and above and beyond the dollar amounts just cited.
PAGENO="0133"
156~
May I say to my friends from the League of Women Voters, I know
of no agency in the Federal Government outside of the Defense De-
partment where I consider the credibility gap greater than in the
Office of Economic Opportunity. Through hard and very sad experi-
ence on many occasions, I have learned not to accept a single figure
from OEO without checking it.
We were misled. We were misinformed. Some information was
withheld. The testimony will show in the hearings of 1967 that we
were told that the costs of the Job Corps enrollees were one floure, and
when we asked, "Did it include this and this and this and t~iis " the
answer was "No, no, no." The actual costs were at least twice as high
as those OEO came up with.
This was the reason this committee was concerned-the outrageous
costs to train one person when there was such a desperate need for
training for so many in the schools and out.
We do not have unlimited funds. If we. have, say, $100 million to
spend on youngsters that are disadvantaged, youngsters that are out
of school, youngsters that are unemployable, how do we best spend
that $100 million?
The chairman said it is a great mistake to close down centers. May
I say also I think it is a great mistake not to open vocational education
centers in high schools.
Chairman PERKINS. I will agree.
Mrs. GREEN. Of the two, it is a more serious mistake not to provide
vocational education at the high school level to prevent the dropouts
and even go down to the junior high level. It is well and good to say-
and I agree with the lady from Ohio-I think our priorities in this
country are all turned upside down, and this has been both a Demo-
cratic and Republican fault.
In my judgment, we don't spend anywhere near what we ought
to for education; we are not beginning to touch the problems. The
question is: How do we best spend the $100 million?
It is my contention we are not spending it wisely. The Job Corps
costs are outrageous. I think the league could well consider some of
the other statistics given to us. My recollection is that in 1967, 94 per-
cent of the youngsters returned from the Job Corps to the place where
they had formerly lived.
I have serious question about how much we are helping the youngster
from New York City in the ghetto to take him out for 6 months and
put him in a park in Oregon when he is going to return to the streets
of New York City, he is not going to be trained for a job in the place
where he is going to live.
We saw this same problem in the care. of the mentally ill. We came
to the conclusion it makes a lot more sense to take care of the mentally
ill by a supporting service in their home communities. We may find
it much more desira)ble to take care of these youngsters, either as
potential dropouts or a~tual dropouts in the community and to provide
there the residential centers for those youngsters who have terrible
environments to return home. to at night.
I hope that we will have a residential center in my State. It is my
strong conviction that we will help more people in Portland, Oreg.,
if we provide this kind of service, a residential center for those
youngsters who desperately need it. We can provide day care, on-the-
job training, vocational education, for youngsters without requiring
PAGENO="0134"
1566
a change in residential setting. lYe can provide supportive services
of all kinds for a much larger number of people.
I would suggest that for $100 million or whatever it is, we will be
able to reach more youngsters through a residential center community-
based program than we will just to send a limited number away from
home for a short period of training.
I do not think it is possible to take an 18-year-old youngster and
put him or her in the Job Corps and in 6 months' time change his
lifetime habits. I think there is serious question about that.. There is
no evidence that I have seen in any of the studies that would support
a contrary conclusion. A kid that. has not been motivated, maybe if you
have 3 or 4 years to work with him you can do something with him.
But to have him for only 6 months or 3 months-and I believe the
testimony describes a 6-month' program-I don't know you can change
him that. readily. You can't change the motivation. You can help
these kids in some ways, but I think the real problems are to try
to provide some kind of change that will be lasting and to reach the
vast number that ire are not even touching.
This is why we must, in my judgment, consider alternatives. If we
can reach more, if we. can prevent dropouts instead of helping the
kid after the troubles occur, maybe we will be better off. These are
the hard facts that this committee has to struggle with. If we had the
money the. Defense Department does-someone said: if HEW were
given $5 billion, they worry all year about how they could spend it-
if the Defense Department w-ere given $5 billion, they would spend
it in 2 weeks and be back for more.
Mr. SCHERLE. Will you yield?
Mrs. GREEN. llThat we really have to do with limited money in the
field of health, education, and welfare is to plan alternatives. I almost
suggested but probably I wisely refrained last week on the floor,
from suggesting that maybe we ought to insist on education being in
the Defense Department; they have no trouble getting money. Let.
them do it.
Mr. SCHERLE. WTill you yield?
Mrs. GREEN. I yield, of course.
Mr. SCHERLE. I agree with the gentlelady from Oregon. I think
maybe with our administrations of colleges and universities, maybe
it should be going to the Defense Department.
Mrs. GREEN. That is not the point I was trying to make.
Mr. SCHERLE. I would like to say this to you fine ladies, members
of the League of Women Voters: We have had a tremendous explana-
tion of the problem by one of you, by this young lady from Oregon,
which I think is a masterpiece: I think you should also notice she is
a very fine teacher and a fine educator, and who knows more about
the problems today of our youth than someone like the profound
lady from Oregon, Mrs. Green.
~[rs. GREEN. Thank you.
Chairman PERKINS. Mrs. Mink.
Mrs. MINK. I have no questions. I apologize for being late. I had
to attend a hearing on coal mine safety upstairs. I did want to extend
my personal welcome to all of you who are here in Washington attend-
ing a meeting of the League of Women Voters. I am particularly
proud of my league in Hawaii and for their demonstrated concern
PAGENO="0135"
1567
about the problems that concern our country. I know of their great
interest and concern about the poverty program.
I received a letter from our league in Hawaii concerning the closure
of the Job Corps centers and urging that the Congress study the matter
and provide for some orderly transition if the centers must, in fact,
be closed.
I am a strong supporter of the poverty program and am deeply con-
cerned about the effect that the closure of the centers will have on the
young people involved. I would hope that the Congress would act
in such a way that the 5 centers could be retained. Thank you very
much, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Collins.
Mr. COLLINS. I would like to ask someone to give me some specifics.
What bothers me is a matter of relative evaluation of how the Con-
gress spends its money. The question comes up, like it has on the Edu-
cation Committee where we give about $300 to disadvantaged young-
sters' education. When you go to the Job Corps and give $7,500 to one,
it raises the question of whether one Job Corps youngster would do
better with that money or should it go to 25 where we might be able
to prevent some dropouts down the line?
The figures I saw on the Job Corps, said: "Out of 100 people we
registered for the Job Corps, only 20 end up with jobs 90 days after
the year is up." Is that your understanding? These were the figures
we had, which means we are having only 20 percent end up in success-
ful employment out of 100 that started.
Now, the question is : Where should we be putting the money?
One alternate has proved effective. `It is called on-the-job training.
We took 600 people out of the valley, moved them up to Dallas, put
them in Grand Prairie in a training program for 2 years on the job.
They had over 82 percent of those people on the job at the end of
the period; the `withholding taxes on the people's salary was enough
to pay for their moving and adjustment of salary expense; so it is
a self-sustaining program. How is this Job Corps better than that type
of program?
Mrs. BENSON. They are reaching different people, it seems to me.
These are adults. The Job Corps is a much younger group. On-the-
job training is a program that the league supports for adults, and it
does a great deal of work not only for Texas, for instance, and some
of the auto plants in Detroit, and in on-the-job training, they dis-
covered there, however, they have to do all kinds of training in the
basic skills just of living. He has to know how to take a bus to the
factory from where he lives and how to read the directions on the
front of the bus to `tell which bus to get on and to use a token.
There is a great deal of training even that has to be done in the
training of adults and on the job, `but the Job Corps is intended for
youngsters, some of whom come to the Job `Corps centers who are in
their teens with a reading level of third or fourth grade, if that; and
`one of the first things that had to be `done is to get them to learn to
read before they~ can learn `how to write. At th~ same time, they are
learning other skills.
So I think they are tw-o situations aimed at two different problems,
employment problems.
PAGENO="0136"
1568
Mr. COLLINS. Let us look at this. Are we taking people and putting'
them above their reading ability? Could we take people with a third
grade reading ability-we are short in hospitals to clean up a.nd take
care of the general facilities-would this person be better equipped
for a hospital?
Mrs. BENSON. I think we are trying to prevent a youngster able to
read much better than a third grade level, perhaps even able to read,
as it has happened many times, at a high school level and above-
from stopping his ability at a very early age and low level.
Mr. COLLINS. Why is it we have such a poor ratio; in other words.
going from 100 down to 20, why don't the trainees ftnish the program
and end up in a permanent job?
Mrs. WARREN. I think the dropout problem is expectable in view,
as Mrs. Benson said, of the type of person that this program is aimed
for. I don't think it should be surprising at all. I think the effort is
worth it. We have youth we have one way of getting around and, two,
you can make your requirements higher and would have a much better
turnout then and would have better facts and figures to prove the
value of the program, or make it easier for them to graduate, require
less of them, make life pleasanter for them while there.
There are some other ways of doing it. I think all of these have to
be worked out. If it is aimed at the real hard core, people with no
social or academic skills whatsoever, then I don't think that even 20
out of 100 is a bad record.
Mr. COLLINS. On the other hand, we took these complete groups
who never held a job and had 80 out of 100 make good after 2
years. and they were training on a permanent job. It seems to me the
record proves that on-the-job is a better way of adjusting.
Mrs. BENSON. I agree with you, sir, but it is for a different popu-
lation group. Incidentally, many of our job-training programs in
Ohio, work-experience programs under title V, tl1e Project Aid in Jobs
in Cleveland, found an enormous percent of original enrollees were
unable to participate finally because of health problems alone. They
were not functionally illiterate but also needed considerable more
academic training in order to hold entry-level jobs or take quite
minimal skilled training.
The problem of hospital work is a very old one, as I know very well.
But you know the minimum wage has not hit all of those people and
they are required to moonlight even to make a living for themselves,
let alone their family; so I don't think it is a serious attempt to put
people back in the mainstream there.
We need services of this sort very badly. and I think there is a
whole lot of work to be done on this subject in all of the supportive
services for professionals.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Clay.
Mr. CLAY. Mr. Chairman, I don't have any questions. I would like
to make a statement in regard to a statement that I keep hearing from
this committee about closing the Job Corps centers and giving these
youth, or giving more youth the chance to take advantage of the type
of program the Job Corps is now providing for some 35 or 40,000
youths. I can't for the life of me find out where these youths are
going to be absorbed or how more youths are going to be trained than
in the present programs.
PAGENO="0137"
1569
Even the Secretary of Labor talked about holding out for these
youths. He spoke in terms of the JOBS program and, according to
my information, the limit on youth who can participate in the JOBS
program is 20 percent. The MDTA program has a limitation on youth
of 25 percent. The CEP program has a limit on the number of youths
that can be involved in the program.
I think the whole philosophy of the directors of all of these pro-
grams is to include as few youths as possible so that their placement
percentage will be greater, because they know it is hard to place a
17 or 18 year old youth on a job, so they take in these programs as
few as they possibly can in order to make their record look good on
paper.
I would like to say here and now that I think the types of people
that residential Job Corps centers appeal to and help cannot receive
the sttme type of help from the other programs that the administra-
tion is talking about helping.
I would also like to say to the ladies here from the League of Women
Voters that women have been discriminated against in terms of Job
Corps placement figures. I think that when you allow a male who
fimshes at a Job Corps center to be considered as placed in employment
if he volunteers for the service, I think you ought to show the same
kind of consideration for the young lady who leaves the Job Corps
center and gets married.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINs. Any further questions? Mr. Hansen.
Mr. HANSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. May I also join my col-
leagues in extending a very warm welcome to the ladies of the League
of Women Voters. Although I have been on the committee a very
short time, I can never remember a time when the room has been more
attractively filled than it is here this morning.
It is also a particular pleasure to note that among your members,
in fact among your board members, is a neighbor and long-time friend,
Mrs. Eugene Smith, who is here this morning with Mrs. Clifford
Dobler of Moscow and Mrs. Eldon Darling of Boise, representing the
Idaho league.
I might say also it has been my privilege to work very closely with
the members of the Idaho league during my service in the State legisla-
ture in attempting to achieve some common objectives.
I can say, for the work they have in Idaho, that I have known of
no group that has been more effective and more constructive in the
development of sound solutions to problems, in focusing public atten-
tion on problems, and in providing a forum within which candidates
and public officials may express their views to the public.
I would also like to say I have waited a long time for this moment.
During my public career, which goes back many years, I have fre-
quently been interrogated by representatives of the League of Women
\Tofers. Now the tables are turned and I approach my assignment here
with some~ trepidation.
I also extend my congratulations to the league on the recent observ-
ance of the 50th anniversary, marking a half century of service to our
country.
I would like to also associate myself with the initial comment, ob-
servations made by the gentlelady from Oregon, Mrs. Green.
PAGENO="0138"
1570
In the course of the testimony this morning-I will say I appreciate
the very thoughtful and serious, constructive statement made by all
of the ladies-in the course of it, note was taken of the fact that this
program is one of continuing experimenting and evaluation, and also
it was noted that all experiments cannot be victories and that our efforts
must be continually directed toward searching for new solutions and
fiuicling new directions.
So in the course of the time that this basic legislation has been on
the books and on the basis of the studies tha.t have become available,
noting the experience under it, it would seem to me that this is a. useful
time to make a very searching analysis of where we have been and a
determined effort to try to identify the defects and weaknesses in this
program and in the basic legislation so that we can at this juncture
try to chart a new course that will help us more effectively to achieve
the goals of the program.
We do have the Secretary's analysis which I think is very helpful,
and I would commend it to you. We have other studies that contribute
to our overall information, and enable us to evaluate the program.
So I would extend a welcome to you and express the confidence and
hope that in the course of our consideration of this legislation this year
that as your study continues you may make some affirmative recom-
mendations to us on substantive changes in the basic legislation that
will help us to be more effective in achieving our goal.
I would point to one of the statistics that have been revealed by the
study. We haye learned that on the average about 40 percent of those
in the Job Corps centers drop out in the first 90 days. Now, we have
some centers with excellent records. This would suggest if they are
better than the 40-percent average, there are some that have much
worse records.
It has been suggested that possibly the kind of youths toward which
the program is directed is one of the reasons for this high dropout.
Let me ask this question: On the basis of the studies conducted by
the league, have you made any or reached any conclusion in trying to
determine the reason for the high dropout, as to whether it may be
associated with the removal of the Job Corpsman from his home en-
vironment, which initially we assumed had to be one of the basic objec-
tives of the program? And, is it possible, based on your own analysis,
that some of them should not be removed and that were we to provide
a training opportunity closer to home, within their home environment,
that we might be more successful in reaching more young people and
achieving a better dropout ra.te?
Mrs. BENSON. Mrs. Waterman will comment.
Mrs. WATERMAN. I can only speak for my own case at Clinton Job
Corps Center for Women. One of the reasons they found so many of
the young women, in the early stages of the program particularly and
some later on come on the record as dropouts, is because of some family
condition at home where they do not want to leave the center neces-
sarily but are called home, they are perhaps in many cases needed for
a babysitter or there is some kind of emergency situation.
This happens, in an estimate of the ones who left the programs
early or even halfway through, in at least 20 to 25 percent of the
cases. This is why the young women left, not because they were dis-
satisfied or wanted to go but because. some situation at home required
that they come back.
PAGENO="0139"
1571
I would also like to make a remark about Congressman Clay's very
interesting observation about some of the facts, about the fact *that
many of the young women in the women's Job Corps center have really,
truly gotten married and this is how they have taken themselves out
of the job market.
When I talked to Dr. Atkins of the Clinton center about this, he said
to me, "I wonder if we consider the fact that the education of university
women who are not working now but are married to be a daily task."
Mr. HANSEN. Do I understand from your response and other coin-
ments that have been made, that there is a recognition on the part of
the league of at least a need to experiment with the kinds of residential
and other training centers located near the urban areas to serve, to
provide the training and supportive services, but not a domicile
facility?
Mrs. BENSON. Yes; the league has a positive attitude toward experi-
mentation but is opposed to the too rapid shift from one experiment
to the other without being sure; in other words, closing the job centers
or an assumption that all children should be trained close to home;
it is not borne out by fact, the question of whether a child or youngster
does better in a job-training center many, many miles away from home
or whether he does better close to his home, whether in residential center
or living at home in a different kind of program, is not yet solved.
We feel very strongly we are going to have to continue to experi-
ment in this area. The dropout problem is a very difficult problem, but
it is not related just to a given youngster and his setting in a Job
Corps center but related to his entire experience as a~ human being
since he was born. Many of the causes of dropout problems are directly
related to the conditions at home and to what else is going on at home,
as Mrs. Waterman pointed out in cases of girls needed at home. The
same is true for boys.
I think this is not a subject on which we have final answers as yet.
I think we certainly do agree with the experiments.
Mr. HANSEN. If I understand your statement, your criticism is di-
rected toward what you have characterized as a too abrupt closing of
existing Job Corps centers but you have welcomed the experimentation
that will come with the proposal to open some of the centers near
your area.
Mrs. BENSON. Yes; that is true.
Chairman PERKINS. Will the gentleman yield?
Mr. HANSEN. Yes.
Chairman PERKINS. If I understood correctly-I want to make
sure-but not at the expense of closing the present Job Corps centers;
is that your view?
Mrs. BENSON. Yes; it is. It is quite possible-although I don't have
a concrete example to give you-there could be a Job Corps center or
centers in various parts of the country which, for a variety of reasons,
are not doing the job they were intended to do. We would not oppose
the closing of such a center.
What we do oppose is the closing of the center which is doing a
good job, and by that we don't mean a perfect job; we do expect
there will be a dropout rate until we solve other problems, there will
continue to be dropout rates; but this is quite right, we are not opposed
to experimentation or opening of new centers, whether they are many-
skill centers or whatever they are or wherever they are.
PAGENO="0140"
1572
One of the problems I think our assumption is, as Mrs. Green
pointed out, our priorities are upside down or at least askew; the
League of Women Voters feels a great deal more money should be
expended in the whole effort to get at the problems of the basic, the
basic poverty problems, the hard-core problems of discrimination and
equal opportunity. We feel that more money should be expended on
these programs.
When we do, we realize the problem, one can hardly be a halfway
conscious citizen not to realize the problem of the limitation of funds.
There is not an unlimited amount of money, but we are a wealthy
country and we feel more strongly more money should be expended
on the various programs, whether it is vocational education, whether
it is Job Corps centers, or on-the-job training or any agency, what-
ever it is, we think all levels of appropriations should be higher.
Mrs. GREEN. Will you yield?
Mr. HANSEN. I will be delighted to yield to the gentlelady.
Mrs. GREEN. I am a card-carrying member of the League of Women
Voters. Would it be presumptuous for me to suggest an item for the
national agenda., and I do this really in all seriousness? I think the
`eague would make the greatest contribution in terms of legislation
for the next few years in programs if you would give the same
attention to the budget of the Defense Department that you have
given to OEO.
You should really do this and study the Defense Department
budget, as we have been doing it in my office a little bit. My best
information is that $55 billion of the Defense Department budget
never even has the scrutiny of the authorizing committee of the Con-
gress or of the Congress itself: and one of my friends has described it:
"They treat it the way the Bureau of the Budget treats it-as `flow-
through' rather than `lookover'."
If you woi~ld really examine the waste that is in the Defense Dc-
partn~ent and would turn the energies of all of the. women of this
country loose on that, we might be able even to find a few billion dol-
la.rs to do most of the things you want to do and some of the things
some of the rest of us want to do.
Mrs. BENSON. The suggestion you just made was made to u~ just
the other night by Charles Schultze.. former Director of the Bureau of
the Budget, and judging by the. applause lie received at the suggestion,
perhaps I could invite you as a. member of the League of Women Voters
to campaign for that item on our national program.
Mrs. GREEN. I will be delighted if you will agree to reciprocate
when I need it in Oregon.
Mrs. BENSON. I certainly couldn't commit the league members to
that. I think it is a. matter of choosing.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead. Mr. Hansen.
Mr. QUIE. Would you yield?
Mr. HANSEN. I will yield.
Mr. Qc~IE. I was interested in your comments about the closing of
the Job Corps camps and centers. What was the league's attitude about
the closing of the 16 Job Corps centers in February of 1968? Did you
then state the ones you thought should have been closed a.nd the ones
you t.hought should not. have been closed?
PAGENO="0141"
1573
Mrs. BENSON. We did not make a statement on specific Job Corps
centers that were closed at the time. We were not in favor of the clos-
ing of Job Corps centers or in the limitation on the Job Corps program
which was initially put on it. We did not make any statment on the
specific Job Corps centers which were closed.
Mr. HANSEN. I have one further question, Mr. Chairman. Secretary
Schultze, in his testimony here the other day, called attention to the
need for closer integration of the Job Corps program with other man-
power training programs, and he suggested there was need for the
Job Corps to be supported by and to support other manpower
programs.
In view of the fact, if I can make this assumption, the end goal is
really to develop marketable skills and get the Corpsman on the job,
would you concur there is need for closer integration of all of these
programs dealing with the training and development of skills and
placement on jobs?
Mrs. BENSON. We would wholeheartedly agree with that.
Mr. HANSEN. Thank you very much. It is a great honor to have you
all here this morning. It has been a pleasure to welcome you. Thank
you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. Mrs. Green, any questions?
Mr. GREEN. No.
Chairman PERKINS. We want to thank you all for your appearance
this morning. I personally feel you have been most helpful to the com-
mittee. If some of your members in the league in the audience want
to make statements later today concerning the closing down of the
Job Corps centers in your States, they will have an opportunity after
we hear the scheduled witnesses.
That will be around 5 or 6 o'clock. We would be delighted to hear
from you.
But I want to make my position clear to the gentlelady from Ore-
gon. We are actually strongly suggesting we are not spending near
enough money. The Congress has never appropriated the funds neces-
sary `to fund our existing authorizations. We appropriate only about
40 percent of the money to fund the Elementary and Secondary Edu-
cation Act and about the same percent in the higher educational pro-
grams in the country.
But `as a committee that has jurisdiction over education matters and
labor problems, I have listened to the hearings for some 10 years in
connection with the Job Corps. We have been trying to do something
to reach the hard-core youngster that presently is at the bottom of the
barrel and has been overlooked from generation to generation, and we
came up with this solution.
We know that the present manpower programs are not reaching this
hard-core youngster. In my congressional district-and I venture to
say it is a fairly good pattern throughout the Nation-we have as
many as 15 or 20 applications pending for MDTA training programs
that cannot be approved beca.use of the inadequacy of the funds. All of
those programs are reacliin~ the youngster that can adapt himself
readily for the type of training to go out and be employed.
I-Ic is not a problem child. But we have no programs for vocational
educational centers in the country. The best vocational educational
PAGENO="0142"
1574
leaders in the country will tell von that one of their chief problems is
discovering how to deal with the hard-core youngster that has been a.
dropout with a. third-grade education, fourth-grade education. They
are just not equipped to deal with that youngster. On top of that, their
facilities are so limited that they have no available space to
experiment..
So the tendency of the vocational education people has always been
to take the cream of the crop.
You see, the reason that we are begging this issue is because we are
trying to substitut.e an alternative when we do not have an alternative
in existence. W'e are talking about an alternative, and the Lord only
knows how it is going to work out.
I say to you quite frankly that this is too costly for us, too costly
an experiment at this stage of the. game when we do have a workable
~rogram underway for the youngster at the bottom of the barrel who
has been overlooked for so long.
The facts will prove that. we have barely touched the youngster that
we are trying to serve with Job Corps. It makes no sense to close
down a. facility with a capital investment of $100 million-
Mr. QtTIE. Will you yield?
Chairman PERKINS (continuing). And try to coñie up with some-
thing else, that is unproved and untried for the type. of child that we
have overlooked for a generation. Mr. Quie.
Mr. Qur~. People will get the impression that the Job Corps is
primarily for those young people who have, I think you said, about
a fourth-grade education. Let me point out that according to the
studies, 15 percent have finished high school and 3 percent have got
sixth grade or less. In fact, breaking down the percent, 15 percent
ixere 11th grade, 23 percent were 10th, and 23 percent were ninth, and
14 percent eighth, and 7 percent seventh grade, and 3 percent fifth
grade or less, and the average grade of all is 9.6.
Chairman PERKINS. As the gentleman well knows, you take the
high school graduate but where their accomplishments were much
lower-and Mr. Harris discovered that-that their accomplishments
were down to about third or fourth grade. But in response, I will put
in the record a study of the Department of the Interior which bears out
just what I am telling you, of the enrollees that were enrolled in the
center in the national parks in this country.
Mr. Qm~. We have a grading level of 5.3, and I understand from
people in television they are aiming toward the sixth-grade level of
the average American.
Mrs. GREEN. I would hope we would also put in the record, so we
have a balanced view, both the Harris report on the grade level of
the youngsters at the time they went into the Job Corps and figures on
how many were employed at the time they went into the Job Corps.
Chairman PERKINS. We already have it.
Mrs. GREEN. So it would balance what the OEO claims.
Chairman PERKINS. I will have all of that information for the
gentlelady.
Mrs. GREEN. May I continue?
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead.
Mrs. GREEN. I wonder if we could leave the Job Corps for a few
minutes. I don't think it will be settled this morning. What about
PAGENO="0143"
1575
i-Ieadstart? Does the League of `Women Voters oppose transfer of
Headstart to another agency?
Mrs. BENSON. Yes, we do oppose it at this time.
Mrs. GREEN. At what time do you favor it?
Mrs. BENSON. `When it appears to be agreed that or there appears
to be good evidence that another agency could do a good job incorporat-
ing all of the aspects we felt were very important, particularly those
other services besides school, health services, say, the involvement of
the parents, and so forth.
Mrs. GREEN. I know that many of your members are teachers. They
know that, before OEO was ever born, the public schools have been
concerned about the child's health and the dental needs and emotional
needs. Therefore we have child guidance clinics and doctors and den-
tists at schools.
Your statement concerned me for this reason. Have you done any
study of all of the other preschool programs that are run by the
Office of Education and by the schools themselves? As a matter of fact,
there are more preschool programs run by the Office of Education
than there are Headstart programs that are run by OEO. It has never
made much sense to me to have programs that are designed for identi-
cal purpose in two different agencies. I would think that if they were
coordinated, that we would be able to help more youngsters.
Let me repeat the example I used before of a town where the OEO
He.adstart teacher is paid a higher salary, she has either 15 or 20-I
have forgotten-youngsters the entire day and has two aides, and the
kindergarten teacher next door, in the same building, drawing from
the same socioeconomic group, has 30 youngsters in the morning and
30 in the afternoon and she has no aides.
Now, this does not make sense to me in terms of the total educational
needs of a youngster. I would think that there would be abundant
evidence at this time on which to make a judgment about the
coordination.
Downtown they want to transfer this to a child development agency.
Maybe this is what we will have to settle for. I hope it would be with
a strong voice from the Office of Education.
Mrs. BENSON. As a league member, you know the league is, first,
last, and foremost, in favor of coordination in planning, but the fact
of the matter is, in so many of our communities and so many of our
States, there has been `absolutely nothing done to start preschool pro-
grams. Many of our States are now working on trying to get their kids
to start kindergarten programs.
Mrs. GREEN. I am referring to preschool programs under title I of
ESEA. I don't know if there is any State that does not have some
under title I which is aimed at the disadvantaged child.
Mrs. BENSON. Very true, but they are not beginning for all of the
children. I would like to ask several with me ~o comment. First Mrs.
Warren.
Mrs. WARREN. Thank you very much. There are probably no States
without title I preschool programs, but there are lots of cities and
towns within States that have none. This `bears out the problem that
here, too, we have more to do than we have yet done. The OEO Head-
start programs have been a great impetus in this field, I believe. We
did not, before their existence, have the joint work between the gov-
PAGENO="0144"
1576
ermnental agencies, the Intergovernmental Council on Early Child-
hood Education, which drew up some fine guidelines for early
childhood education. Day-care licensing exists in 44 States, I believe.
Ohio ha.s not yet jomed that illustrious company. These regulations
are what generally control, I would think, together with the inter-
agency guidelines, the pupil-teacher ratio in preschool programs.
These do not apply, of course., to kindergarten groups. They are differ-
ent licensing requirements.
Mrs. GREEN. May I suggest, I don't think your comment goes to
the part of coordination. Not only are there more preschool programs
under title I under the Office of Education but also very close to 60
percent of the Headstart programs are delegated to school systems.
The public school district of Portland runs the entire program there.
I just don't understand why we don't coordinate it at the national
level and put it in one office so we get more dollars left for the
youngsters and fewer spent on administrative costs.
Let me turn to another problem, community action programs. I don't
know what your position was on the amendment I offered to title II
a couple of years ago; nevertheless the amendment read:
A State or a political subdivision of a State may be designated as a community
action agency.
OEO ruled that they would not designate any State, which, I think,
is in direct violation of the law. I wonder if the league has looked at
this.
They also, immediately after the adoption of the amendment,
adopted guidelines that no city with a population of less than 250,000
would be designated as a community action program, a requirement
that was not in effect before my amendment was adopted by Congress.
I don't need to state to you ladies there are an awful lot of cities in
the United States that are under 250,000; so by their guidelines, which
have the effect of law, they said, in effect: "We will not pay any atten-
tion to the State designation in title II; we won't designate even
though Congress has said so."
Arizona and Arkansas wanted to have community action agencies
to coordinate their programs.
I had preliminary conversations with people of the State of Oregon
before I introduced it. They wanted to have a State program. It would
have made a lot more sense to me, especially in the rural areas and in
the metropolitan areas which go out over three counties, to have a.
State plan.
I wonder if the league has given serious consideration to the way
OEO administers such laws and programs.
Mrs. BENSON. There is concern about the way OEO administers
things and we have looked very, very hard to try to help in numerous
ways the improvement of the administration of these programs. I think
that the general feeling within the league is that it is very easy to find
a great many things to criticize all of the poverty programs about; we
are doing a great deal, and we need to do a. gre.a.t deal more.
There are a great many things that are wrong and need improving,
and we are in favor of this. That is, especially in the area of better
administration.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Esch.
Mr. ESOH. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I regret I was
not here for the full morning. I might just note tha:t we have more
than one meeting going on at the si~me time.
PAGENO="0145"
1577
I want to share in the comments of my colleagues in welcoming this
group here today.
It is my understanding that the league is strongly in favor of a
program of total involvement in the preschoolchild areas. You feel,
we should meet such preschool needs as involvement of a total family
structure, involvement of various health and social agencies. You feel
that it would be a major step forward if this Congress provided a
total preschoolchild development program. Would you want to affirm
that?
Mrs. BENSON. Yes. Mrs. Richardson would like to speak to it.
Mrs. RIcI~nDsoN. I agree, and I would like to speak to the two
good programs going on in Georgia, one in Atlanta, Fulton County
area, an urban setting, and one in Whiteville County near Dalton, Ga.,
in a rural setting; and one is 2 years old and one is 1 year old, and we
are asking for Atlanta, Fulton County, to extend in and going from the
centers and with the families in now a possible cottage type of program.
We feel this is extremely important in the Atlanta, Fulton County
area, and there are volunteers that even work with the mother before
the child is born.
Mr. EscH. I appreciate the ladies' position from the standpoint of
wanting to develop a total comprehensive program in this area.
Concerning the whole area of manpower training, I assume it is the
league's position that you recognize, that we have yet n~t met the needs
of those who are unemployed or underemployed and that we need
to develop a much greater program and a much more comprehensive
program in all phases of manpower trainiug. Is that right?
Mrs. BENSON. Yes, that is right.
(Letter to Chairman Perkins follows:)
APRIL 27, 1969.
Hon. CARL PERKINS,
Chairman, House Committee on Education and Labor, House Office Building,
Washington, D.C.
Dn~&R MR. PERKINS: Our local League of Women Voters supports continuation
of the Job Corps Centers. We feel Job Corps Centers should not only not be
abruptly riosed, but that the conservation centers, especially, should continue
in operation.
We r~alize that the GAO study felt Job Corps achievements had been limited.
However, it would appear that many factors other than costs should be con-
sidered. Some of these factors involve intangibles-the overall human develop-
ment achievements, for instance. But even some of the known tangibles indicate
that job achievements by Corps terminees were more significant than earlier re-
ported by GAO.
For example, the Harris study (Louis Harris) indicated that, holding the
age factor constant, terminees-both Negro and white-upped their earning
capacities substantially.
We would hope that instead of hastily being closed, Job Corps Centers will
remain in service to provide an environment for residence, education and train-
ing away from the overpowering environments that held little hope for those
young people.
We must not withdraw or decrease promised assistance and opportunity from
the disadvantaged if they are to have any confidence in the depth of our nation's
commitment to overcoming poverty and discrimination.
Yours very truly,
THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS
OF BILLINGS, MONT.
PHYLLIS GREGORY (Mrs. Arthur),
President.
GLORIA MORRISON (Mrs. Bruce P.),
Chairman, Human Resources Comm.
27-754-69-pt. 3-1O
PAGENO="0146"
1578
Mr. Escii. I wanted to have you reaffirm that so we have it for the
record. I found with my league in Ann Arbor, Mich., that we agree
philosophically in terms of goals even though we sometimes disagree
procedurally. I would hope the league in the next couple of months
might take a. real careful and objective analysis of what procedures
might best be utilized to reach the goals both of us have in mind.
We may disagree procedurally, whether it is wise to do away with
parts of the Job Corps-and obviously we are not going to do away
with the Job Corps totally, but we are going to develop it. into a
much more comprehensive program.
Secretary Finch, and the President, have emphasized on five occa-
sions that the Xo. 1 initiative of tl~is administration is going to be the
development, of a comprehensive preschool program.
So I hope that the league may lend their affirmative support to the
goals of this administration and goals of this Congress. Thank you
very much.
Chairman PERKINS. Ithank you very much, Mr. Esch.
Ally further questions?
Let me Rgain thank all of you distinguished ladies and representa-
tives of a great organization.
STATEMENT OF MSGR. LAWRENCE CORCORAN, U.S. CATHOLIC
CHARITIES, U.S. CONFERENCE OF BISHOPS; ACCOMPANIED BY
FATHER JOHN McCARTHY, DIVISION OF POVERTY, U.S. CATHOLIC
CONFERENCE
Chairman PERKINS. Our next witness is Msgr. Lawrence Corcoran
of the U.S. Catholic Charities, U.S. Conference of Bishops.
I understand you have a prepared statement, and without objec-
tion, it will be inserted in the record and you may proceed as you
wish.
(The document referred to follows:)
PREPARED STATEMENT OF MSGR. LAWRENCE J. CORCORAN. SECRETARY, NATIONAL
CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC CHARIT~S
I appear this morning with Father John McCarthy of the Division on LTrban
Affairs of the United States Catholic Conference, who also has prepared a
statement in which I concur. We appreciate the opportunity to appear before
this distinguished Committee, as you continue to hold hearings, not only on
HR. 513, but on the whole subject of poverty and programs to comba.t it. It
is to the total issue that we wish to address ourselves.
The organizations and agencies which we represent have been extensively
involved in programs stimulated or sponsored by the Federal government through
the Office of Economic Opportunity. I will only refer to the fact that approxi-
mately 100 of our 154 dioceses are involved in direct or cooperative sponsorship
of OEO programs. This in turn involves the use of over 2,000 of our facilities,
the participation of over 13,000 volunteers, serving 14 million persons. In addi-
tion to programs sponsored under OEO, our organizations have directed many
other programs into the war on poverty-social service programs, health pro-
grams find sponsorship of housing for the poor, to name only a few. I speak of
these merely to document our involvement in the war on poverty, our concern
about the existence of poverty, and our intense desire to see it eradicated.
The War o~ Poverty
These hearings are being held, and a new Administration has assumed office
at a point in time when the war on poverty enters an extremely critical stage.
There is impatience with the slowness of its progress and irritation with the
PAGENO="0147"
1579
antics of some of its leaders. There is disagreement about the direction it should
take and confusion about the effectiveness of many existing anti-poverty pro-
grams.
The many witnesses who have appeared before this Committee have articulated
these feelings very clearly. They have explicitly or implicitly substantiated the
judgment that the war on poverty faces a crisis. Yet no one has denied that
poverty exists among us. Whatever other disagreements have been manifested,
there is no quarrel about the continued existence of poverty.
Four years ago the measurement of poverty indicated that there were between
thirty and thirty-five million persons living in poverty. Since then, it is said
that eleven million have emerged from poverty. Even if this is true, then there
are over twenty million persons still subsisting below the poverty line. This
is still a shameful and intolerable condition.
The war on poverty must continue. No one can deny this. It must be intensified;
it must continue with added strength. This is the only conclusion that can be
reached by anyone who is truly concerned about poverty and truly committed
to its eradication.
There must be a strong national commitment to marshal the resources of our
country for a total elimination of poverty. The leadership in this country must
make this commitment and carry it out. We welcomed the statement of President
Nixon that "no domestic issue facing this administration is more important than
the anomalous problem of poverty in an affluent society." We were pleased to
read the statement of the new Director of the Office of Economic Opportunity
that "we must make progress" in the effort to end poverty.
In the face of these statements, however, we were astonished to read that
the President has reduced the budget for the Office of Economic Opportunity,
directed the closing of 59 Job `OoI~ps centers, and cut back on other budgeted
items designed to assist the poor. This hardly represents the proper approach
to the most important domestic issue facing us today.
Tue Office of Economic Opportunity
We also welcomed Congressman Rumsfeld's statement that he does not have
"any intention of presiding over the end of OE'O." This we accept as a forth-
right commitment to the continuation of the Office of Economic Opportunity.
We have constantly urged that there be a distinct agency highly placed in the
Federal government to provide `the leadership and coordination needed for a
serious war on poverty. Such an agency is needed to provide visible assurance
that the government is serious about this problem, an agency whose primary
focus is poverty, whose primary concern is the great number of person's living
in poverty.
It was encouraging to read, therefore, that to strengthen Congressman Rums-
feld's hand "in directing the anti-poverty campaign, Mr. Nixon designated him
an Asissta'nt to the President with Cabinet rank and said that he would be a
member of the Urban Affairs Council." We hope that this move provides the
leadership thrust and emphasis needed for the war on poverty.
We will assume that the Office of Economic Opportunity will continue, and
continue in a significant role. At the same time, however, we must confress to
a feeling of uneasiness. It seems that some would like to terminate OE'O. This
w-ould be a serious mistake. It would weaken the war on poverty. OEO has an
identity, ha's generated momentum, has recruited staff, has accumulated knowl-
edge and skills. To `eliminate `this agency would be to sacrifice all of these things
w-hi~h could he developed by `another agency `only after a period `of years, during
which `the poverty effort would suffer. It is `highly preferable `to strengthen OEO
than `to weaken `or eliminate it.
Transfer of Programs
If the Office of Economic Opportunity, and its effect on the anti-poverty effort,
is to `remain strong `and significant, the question of `the transfer of program's from
OEO `to other Departments mu'st `be exa'mined very carefully. It does seem neces-
sary from `time to time for OEO to "spin `off" some of `its programs. Only in `this
way can it remain creative and innovative. This was part of the original concept
and `intent for OEO. Yet, too many `spin-off s, or unwise spin-offs, will produce a
skeleton `agency without the strength necessary to provide meaningful `direction to
the total effort.
Whether a program is kept in OEO or tran'sferred must be determined by
certain simple `but basic principles-whether the move will strengthen or weaken
the particular program; whether it will strengthen or weaken OEO; and
PAGENO="0148"
1580
whether it will strengthen or weaken the total poverty program. And, once
again, of those who advocate transfers, we must ask whether their intent is to
strengthen or to weaken.
The Head Start program has received must acclaim, and rightly so. We
recently sampled some of our agency directors about some of the poverty pro-
grams in their localities. The majority of them indicated that Head Start was
an effective program which brought many benefits to many people. It has thrived
lU its present location, and we would prefer to see it remain in OEO. It has
developed strength under the direction of OEO and there is no reason to believe
that this will not continue. Its transfer might weaken Head Start itself, and
therefore might weaken the total poverty effort. Such a transfer would likely
weaken OEO.
hf it is determined that greater strength will accrue to the poverty program
through a transfer of Head Start, this should be done only under certain
conditions:
(a) It should be transferred to an agency whose primary focus is the
total development of the child, rather than one aspect of the child's life.
(b) OEO should retain a certain degree of supervision and evaluation
over Head Start to assure its continued effectiveness as an anti-poverty
program.
(c) Parental participation and use of indigenous aides should continue.
(d) No restrictions should be added to the sponsorship by private, volun-
tary groups. Sponsorship by church groups shoud continue to be possible.
(e) The program should be adequately funded.
The same basic principles should be applied in any consideration of a trans-
fer of Job Corps from OEO. Such a move should be calculated to strengthen
rather than weaken the Job Corps. OEO and the total war on poverty. This
means, first of all, that the future of Job Corps must be built on the conviction
that some type of residential training centers for disadvantaged youth are
needed and must be kept as a part of the poverty effort. Any agency adminis-
tering the Job Corps must share this conviction. There must be a focus on youth
training, and the training must be in marketable skills. The agency directing
Job corps must continue its concern for the total youth and all his problems.
It must not limit the enrollees to those youths with whom success is assured.
Some risks must be taken-some "hard-core" youths and school drop-outs must
be served. It must continue the out-reach to the youth's family, and into the
community. Continued attention must be given to follow-up programs to assure
that the Corpsman has the help he needs to adjust to his post-Job Corps environ-
ment. Adequate funding must be provided to maximize the effort being put into
this worthwhile program.
The Job Corps has developed a significant partnership with the voluntary
sector-with private industry, voluntary agencies, religious groups, etc. This
has added strength to the Job Corps and multiplied its efforts. This partnership
shoud be continued.
OEO and ffanger
Six years ago America discovered poverty within its boundaries. Now-, we have
discovered the existence of widespread hunger. We are appalled at its degrading
and debilitating results. It has been estimated that ten million persons suffer
from hunger and malnutrition. Even though the measurement of its extent is not
precise, its existence cannot be denied except by those who are determined not
to acknowledge it.
Sufficient study already has been done to establish the existence of hunger.
Much more effort is needed to determine how much exists, where it exists and
what must be done to overcome it. This is a valid area of concern and action for
the Office of Economic Opportunity. It is charged with the war on poverty, and
it is logical to include in this war on hunger. Hunger must be eliminated before
total poverty is eradicated.
As a first and necessary step, there must be an established, continuing assess-
ment of the extent and distribution of hunger. We note that President Nixon has
budgeted ~4 million to survey hunger. This should be accomplished immediately
and effectively. This function should be given to the Office of Economic Oppor-
tunity. OEO has indicated an interest in hunger and has helped with the
food stamp program. It should be given the overall direction and coordination
of a strong program to eradicate hunger.
This coordination should embrace the governmental and voluntary organiza-
tion programs in combatting hunger. Through a partnership effort a greater
PAGENO="0149"
1581
impact can be made. Significant voluntary programs are in existence. For
instance, a survey taken approximately a year and a half ago indicted that,
just within the Catholic Charities family (including the St. Vincent de Paul
Society), over $7 million was being expended to combat hunger. I am sure that
other groups could report similar expenditures. In addition, some of our agencies
are serving as centers for the distribution of surplus commodities. Others would
be willing to fulfill this function.
MIgrant Workers
We have been pleased to see the program for migrant workers as a part of
the Economic Opportunity Act. A large percentage of these workers live below
the poverty line. Their problems are complex, being a mixture of economic,
educational, health, cultural and other difficulties. They represent a group of
people whose problems reflect the broad spectrum with which OEO is designed
to deal. OEO has developed many programs to help the migrants, and in fiscal
year 1968 devoted $26,585,000 to them. While this is good, we feel that more
*attention and resources should be directed to this particularly disadvantaged
group.
Participation of the Poor
One of the major contributions of the war on poverty has been the effort to
maximize the participation of persons served in the planning and implementation
of programs. Admittedly this has been a controversial part of the work of OEO,
and has brought many problems. Yet, there is a great value in this objective
which should not be lost. Essential to a democracy is the participation of *the
citizens in a broad range of civil and political processes. This is basically
related to the requirement of man's dignity as an intelligent being that he bear
some responsibility for the matters that affect his life. This applies to the poor
as well as to the non-poor. The idea of the participation of the poor must continue.
Ways must be found to make the participation of recipients of service meaning-
ful. Preparation to enable these persons to understand, to discuss and to make
decisions is necessary. Adult education classes, seminars and practical experience
should be provided as an integral part of this effort to involve recipients of
service.
Another problem in making this participation effective is the determ.ination
of who represents the recipients of service, who represents the poor. Most special
elections to determine this have not provided a significant response. Perhaps
more of an effort should be made to align elections for these purposes with
regular political elections. More people would vote. More interest in general
electoral issues and personalities would develop. Our democratic processes would
be strengthened.
Involvement of the Private S~ector
The partnership between the governmental and volunteer sectors in the war
on poverty has been one of the major assets of the programs directed by the
Office of Economic Opportunity. Such partnership is always vital, but assumes
added importance now that the President has called for special emphasis on
the role of the private sector in solving our many social ills. 0110 has made
great use of private enterprise in carrying `out its responsibilities. This has
increased the extent and effectiveness of the poverty efforts. This also reflects
an awareness of the important political and sociological principle that the
primary role of government is to stimulate, encourage and assist the other
institutions and groups of our nation to act.
Funding
One of the many problems faced by sponsors of poverty programs funded by
OEO has *been the uncertainty of continued funding and adequate notice of
renewal of funds. The remedy for this is to provide funding for longer periods
than one or two years. We think that the funding period for the total poverty
program (OEO) should be extended. Yet five years' funding, as proposed in
HR. 513 might be too long. With such an important and changeable program
as the war on poverty, more frequent review and reassessment would seem
advisable. For individual programs also, at least two years are necessary to
adequately develop and demonstrate effective activities. Anything less is dis-
ruptive of program. frustrating for personnel and therefore uneconomical for the
total effort. A funding period of three years seems most appropriate.
Above all, adequate funds must be allocated for the war on poverty. The job
of eliminating poverty will not be accomplished by half-hearted efforts. If
PAGENO="0150"
1582
we are convinced of the evil of poverty, and of the necessity of eliminating it.
then we must make a more generous commitment than we have in the past.
This commitment begins with assigning resources. We consider the figure con-
tained in HR. 513, $2,180,000,000 as a minimum figure.
This concludes our recommendations. We appreciate the opportunity to appear
before this Committee. We will continue *to be interested in its efforts. We
certainly commend the Committee members for their zealous attention to one
of the gravest problems facing our nation today.
* Monsignor CoRconAx. Thank you very much. First I would like to
introduce Father John McCarthy, of the division of poverty of the
U.S. Catholic Conference, who likewise is prepared to speak to these
items. We do have prepared statement and we have submitted them,
and rather than reading them at this point, I would rather summarize
what we have stated, and each of us will summarize so it will not be
a lengthy presentation in a formal sense.
I represent the National Conference of Catholic Charities, which
is the coordinating organization for all of the Catholic agencies, insti-
tutions, and organizations engaged in the field of social welfare in
the country. It encompasses a large number of agencies and institu-
tion but also of individual members, both directly and indirectly.
I have had a significant involvement in a variety of poverty pro-
grams for, of course, many years, and then more intensively since
the programs under OEO started a few years ago.
First of all, we address ourselves to the so-called war on poverty,
noting, and I might say in this I can't help but refer to the conver-
sations going on this morning, that there seems to be general agree-
ment that poverty exists, it is a difficult thing to get at, no one denies
it, and everybody wants to attack it.
It is a very shameful and intolerable condition in our country, by
reason of the fact it is a collective offense against the dignity of man,
and it is all immoral thing.
Therefore, in the face of this, we want to reemphasize the fact that
the war on poverty must continue, that it must continue in an intensi-
fied manner. The commitment of our resources and energies must be
greater than ever. This must start with the leadership in the country;
namely, in the Halls of Congress and in the White House.
Therefore, rather than in any way cut back on this effort, we must
expand it.
Going on specifically to the Office of Economic Opportunity, in
our statement, we draw attention to the fact it is necessary to have
individuals highly placed in the Federal Government who will pro-
vide leadership and coordination needed for a serious war on poverty.
Such an agency provides assurance that the Government is serious
about this problem, an agency whose primary focus is poverty and
whose primary concern is the great number of persons living in
poverty.
Now, we see OEO as this agency, and we would like to see it not
only continued but to be strengthened, and I hope that all of the
things that are being planned, inaugurated, and continued at this
time points to that fact.
We speak also of the item of transfers. We recognize at some time
it is necessary to transfer some programs from the OEO. This was
the original intent, the original concept. when the war on poverty
started. This, however, should not be done arbitrarily. It should be
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1583
down to add strength, to add strength to a program that is being
transferred, add strength to the central directing agency-namely,
OEO-and add strength to the total war on poverty.
We speak in our statement of the transfer of Headstart, proposed
transfer of Headstart and proposed transfer of the Job Corps in the
light of these basic, fundamental principles that must be kept in mind.
We also suggest that if transfers are to be made, that certain conditions
must be met in making such transfers.
We also touch upon briefly the problem of hunger. We know that this
is not the primary focus of this committee. However, if we are
concerned about poverty, we must be even more concerned about
hunger. We suggest that OEO has a role in this already, Of course,
they have been involved in some ways.
Certainly, one of the big things that is necessary is assessment of
the problem, and the new administration has iiidicated they wish to do
this. It is also necessary that a central coordination of efforts be had.
I point out some of our own efforts in this area of attacking hunger.
There is also a necessity for developing new programs in back of
this. We think it would be very proper that this whole role be given
to the Office of Economic Opportunity as part of its whole role in
directing the war on poverty.
We also address ourselves to the question of the participation of
the poor, and I think this has many values; it has been stressed many
times even though it is a very controversial thing. In speaking of
participation, we want to emphasize what others have done, how all of
these programs have brought many people into greater involvement
and also greater awareness of this particular problem.
We suggest that in order to properly involve the poor, mechanisms
must be devised for making this meaningful. We suggest that some
study should be given to concentrating on the voting procedures to
determine the representatives of the poor and integrating these with
the regular political voting procedures.
Then, likewise, one of the very strong points in the thiiigs that have
happened so far has been the involvement of the private sector. This
partnership between the Government and the voluntary sector has been
important. It has added strength to all of the programs, and it is
something that certainly should be continued.
We are very glad to see Mr. Nixon inauguarate a broad program to
increase this partnership effort. I certainly hope what he is proposing
will continue what has been goiiig on and strengthen it.
Then, finally, let me say a word about funding. I think it is abun-
dantly clear from everything that has been said this morning-it would
seem to me there is common agreement on this-that all of the funding
has been inadequate. I recogiiize that, as has been pointed out by the
esteemed ladies who preceded us, we should also direct our attention to
the appropriations bodies, aiid this we will do. But first must come
the authorization, and we think there must be adequate funds to
carry out these particular programs.
That is a summary of what I have presented in this first statement,
and Father McCarthy has likewise some things to add to this.
Father MCCARTHY. Thank you, Monsignor.
(Prepared statement of Rev. John McCarthy follows:)
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1584
PREPARED STATEMENT OF REV. Joux MCCARTHY, DmECTOR,
F. S. CATHOLIC CONFERENCE
Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee: I am happy to have the honor to
he here today with Monsigiior Corcoran of the National Conference of Catholic
Charitie~. As he pointed out in the beginning of his paper his position is not only
that of the National Conference of Catholic Charities but that of the Division
for Poverty of the U.S. Catholic Conference as well.
Our Office, the Division for Poverty, is in complete agreement with Monsignor
Corco~an on his basic point: namely, the continuation in a realistic manner of
our nation's commitment to eradicate poverty from our midst. The principles that
flow from this. such as the need for an agency highly placed in the Federal
Government which will provide the necessary leadership. the coordination of
programs, the confrontation with the problem of hunger, and above all the
allocation of adequate funds for this effort. were all points that he has made in
his paper. For my part I only wish to make a few very brief observations regarding
the implementation of certain aspects of the Economic Opportunity Act of 1904
as amended.
A. THE NEED FOR GREATER COORDINATION AND LONG TERM PLANNING.
Throughout the month of April 1 followed the testimony before this Committee
rather carefully and it seemed to me that a number of points have come through
rather clearly.
(a) Everyone claims to be very much in favor of eradicating poverty in
the United States.
(b) The discussion of exactly how best to proceed towards that agreeable
goal seems to have become bogged down in endless discussions about how
best to handle individual programs such as the Job Corps and Head Start.
(a) There has not been much discussion over the need to give one office
in the Federal Government control over our various poverty efforts, nor
does anyone seem to be developing a national long-range program such as is
called for in Section 632 of the 1964 Act.
My work both as a parish priest and in various social action offices in Texas
has occasioned my presence at the periphery of a half-dozen different types of
programs run by OEO, HEW, and the Department of Labor. Most of those that
I have observed were doing excellent work. However, if you will accept a non-
professional observation at this point, I do not believe that all such programs
together as they are currently funded and operated are capable of eliminating
poverty in the United States in this century! I cannot document this but neither
can it be proven that they will accomplish their goal. As far as I can see, no one
is going around this country claiming with great enthusiasm that they are
succeeding.
I believe that, in general, what the OEO is doing it must continue to do. In
fact this Office must be given the means to accomplish much, much more. The
various poverty programs within the other departments must be continued and
they must do far more. If due to the selfishness of the great majority of Americans
our present efforts are all that we can do, if politically our hands are tied, then
let us face this fact and do what we can with what we have, but at the very
least, let us not kid ourselves. We are certainly not kidding the poor.
When w-e talk about eradicating poverty we must look at its history, its magni-
tude and the "built in" social forces that maintain it. We need to be honest and
face up to the fact that only with radical measures can such a deep seated cancer
be removed from our society. Until there is a realistic Jobs Program with its
enormous consequent costs or until there is some type of a program of general
Income Maintenance tagged in the billions we are in a sense playing a game
with poverty.
It is a wonderful thing that we have several hundred thousand tots in Head
Start programs-but that will not eliminate poverty in the next 25 years.
It is a good thing too that we have removed a hundred thousand youths from
debilitating slums and are training them in productive skills, but neither will
that eliminate poverty within the next two or three decades.
The root cause of poverty in this country is that the white majority has sys-
tematicnlly kept other races impoverished in order to control them politically
and exploit them economically.
The seething urban ghettos of our nation are the overflow of historic injustice
in the South and in the Southwert. In the post-Civil War South an adequate
substitute for slavery was soon devi~ed. Deny blacks an education. make upward
mobility impossible. maintain servility through fear and oppression and you
PAGENO="0153"
1585
have a situation that provides servants and field hands in a system that even
has advantages over slavery. At least the slaves were fed in their old age. (What
was true in the South was also true in the Southwest as far as the Mexican-
American population is concerned.)
The South learned too late that institutionalized poverty carries a great hidden
price tag. Keeping one half of society poor meant keeping a large part of the
second half poor as well. Low wages means low purchasing power . . . which
mean,s little commercial activity . . . which means low tax base . . . which
means poor schools . . . which means poor people . . . which means low wages.
Boomerang!
This nation cannot undo 400 years of injustice in the South and 150 years of
dishonesty in the Southwest with mere band-aids and pacifiers. Actually in terms
of need that is actually what our present efforts amount to-pacifiers. We have
come to routinely budget two billion dollars a year to the OEO-two billion a year
for peace. Well, two billion cannot buy peace in the wealthiest country in the
world when that country will not face the problem of widespread hunger and
malnutrition. Two billion cannot buy peace after centuries of widespread exp'lo:i~
tation. Peace exists between diveres groups only in two situations, peace based
on equality or peace based on the complete suppression of one group by the other.
If we really want peace we must choose between. those! We don't seem to be
willing to pay the price of the former and I'm afraid that those who suggest
a return to the latter have no idea what that price will be.
B. IMPLEMENTING THE EXISTING LEGISLATION.
Despite the inadequacies to which I have referred I believe that the Economic
Opportunity Act of 1964 was a great milestone in American legislative history.
Through its Congress this nation finally began to commit itself to the eradication
of poverty from our midst.
If there has been some bungling, stumbling, and confusion in this war it's no
different from any other type of war in which our country has engaged through-
out its history. But how differently we have waged this war. Gentlemen, let your
minds skip briefly through our national past. Can you think of any w-ar during
the waging of which we gradually committed fewer and fewer resources? Can
you think of any war being waged without risks? Yet this is what the critics of
OEO demand! America's war on poverty as waged to date will be written up in
history-not as a war-not even as a skirmish-but rather as a poorly manned
holding action.
Now I want to say a few things regarding the overall operation of OEO. De-
spite my negative remarks above this Office is still our best effort and best hope
to date. My remarks are not those of a man who is an expert in the administra-
tion of government programs but rather of an individual who has spent a great
deal of his time in the last few years among the poor and working with others
in both the private and public sector who are attempting to assist at least some
of our fellow citizens out of the mire of poverty.
(a) Commnnity Action Programs
The original concept of the Community Action Program was to my way of
thinking very creative and imaginative. It w-a,s also basically conservative, draw-
ing local people together to formulate local plans to confront local problems sup-
ported by resources made available by the Federal Government. Despite all the
problems that have developed I believe that the community action concept which
is still the core of OEO is viable and necessary and when we finally w-in the
struggle I believe that this concept will have played an important part in it. In
the absence of the ultimate efforts to which I have referred, such as a program
of income maintenance, the Community Action Programs around `the nation will
and must remain the skeleton on which to hang other programs. I am referring
to such efforts as Comprehensive Health programs, Legal Services, etc.
I think that it's a well documented fact that the political pressure reflected in
the desire for quick visible results soon hurt the initiative of local CAP's and
most found themselves involved in running programs that had been developed
and packaged in Washington for local consumption. I believe that the original
CAP concept needs to be strengthened and put back on its original course.
(b) The Economic Opportvnity Council
Under Title VI, the Act calls for an Economic Opportunity Council composed
of "the Director of OEO and the heads of such federal departments and agencies,
presidential assistants, and such other officials of the Federal Government as
PAGENO="0154"
1586
the President may from time to time designate." It was to be hoped that
through the function of this Council provision would be made for: (1) the
coordinaiton of federal programs and activities related to the Act; (2) the devel-
oping of basic policies and the setting of priorities; (3) the resolution of dif-
ferences arising among federal departments and agencies; and (4) the initiating
and carrying out of specific actions and projects designed to achieve the
objectives of the Act. It is 1969 and all of these goals seem to me to be as
necessary as ever.
Needless to say the Director of OEO was to have the key role in this and
among his responsibilities was to have been that of preparing a five-year poverty
action plan showing estimates of Federal and other governmental expenditures
arid, where feasible, the contributions of the private sector needed to eliminate
the poverty in this country within alternative periods of time. The plan was
to be presented to Congress and updated on an annual basis. Despite the vital
responsibility for coordination that the Director and Council were to have
had the 90th Congress removed the Director as Chairman and the Council has
not even met since 1967!
I still feel very strongly, however, that this is the direction in which we
need to go: careful planning, careful coordination, and strong determination
combined with the necessary resources. For one reason or another this coordina-
tion and forward planning have been lacking. I am hopeful that in the future
this can be corrected.
In closing I would like to say that for all the talk, for all the disagreement,
and for the occasional blunders, the United States of America will never be
the same. The Economic Opportunity Act of 1964 gave a new sense of responsi-
bility to the Federal Government. There may have been too much rhetoric, there
may have been too much talk and not enough successful action. Hopes for the
great society were aroused to the point that many of the poor thought that a
new- and richer life w-as only just around the corner. Nevertheless we have
begun to become aware-w-e have begun to move-we have begun to face
reality.
I close on an honestly optimistic note. I feel confident that we will face our
problems squarely. Maybe our motivation will not be ideal. Maybe we will do
the right thing only because we see the danger in continued inaction. Maybe
w-e w-ill asume our responsibilities only when we see that we cannot really
afford poverty. Maybe we will eliminate poverty only w-hen it begins to dawn
on us how- much it actually is costing us.
Is it too much to hope that as a nation w-e w-ould do it simply because the
means are at our disposal? Simply because it is right?
Father MCCARTHY. Mr. Chairman, after, I guess, 5 or 6 weeks of lis-
tening all day long, I was really startled when you said, "Come back
along about 5, 6, or 7," when these things always close up about noon;
but evidently you operate on a different schedule, Mr. Chairman,
so as my little contribution toward your physical welfare, I will try
to cut this down to 1 or 2 minutes; but I feel very strongly the need
to maybe add one dimension that at least I have not seen in the record,
although I have not read the entire record of the hearings over the
last. month, nor have I seen it break in the papers, but it is just a
point on page 3 of my position concerning the root causes of poverty.
I know t.hat programing is tremendously important. The limita-
tions of funds because of certain political situations in this country
is a reality. But if we are ffoing to talk about the eradication of pov-
erty, if we are going t.o talk in terms of what we have to do together
as a Nation, then we have to also give a little bit of time and attention
to why people are poor in this country.
For this we go back, we can go back 400 years or 150 years, but
I say, I have a statement. in my text that says: The root cause of
poverty in this country is that the white majority has systematically
kept. other races impoverishe.d in order to control them politically and
exploit them economically.
PAGENO="0155"
1587
Without an exhaustive defense of that thesis, I do say in the post-
Civil War South, an adequate substitute for slavery was soon devised,
to deny blacks an education, make upward mobility impossible, main-
tain fear and oppression, and you have a situation that provides ser-
vants and field hands in a system that even has advantages over
slavery. At least slaves were fed in their old age.
In the Southwest, in contrast to a group of people being brought,
against their will, into slavery, we have another ethnic group that
found itself in part of the United States due to the western extensions
of our boundaries, so we have a very difficult situation of two groups,
one of the descendants of slaves, and the other the Mexican-American
population in the Southwest, who, for the most part, were kept down
and exploited.
You often hear very quickly, "Don't forget, although the percentage
is higher among the other groups, in total figures the largest number
of poor people in the country are white people." This is because the
South and Southwest failed to realize the price tag that is hidden
in the act of institutionalizing poverty.
I allege on the paper-I don't allege; it is true-keeping one-half
of society poor has meant keeping a large part of the second half poor
as well. Low wages means low purchasing power, which means little
commercial activity, which means a~ low tax base, which means the
need for increased social services, which means also there is going to
be, as a flow from a low tax base, it means a poor school system, and
a poor school system means poor people, which means low wages, and
the cycle has been completed.
So I think that in terms of discussing povert.y and poverty programs,
it is extremely important that we, the citizens of the wealthiest Nation
in history, a Nation that has, as was pointed out yesterday on the Sen-
ate floor, or rather 3 days ago, a Nation that can afford 11 trips to the
moon, a multibillion-dollar manned bomber, du'bious antiballistic
missile system, I find it hard to imagine that we who are responsible
for poverty, we can take a great deal of pride in our scientific accom-
plishments and a great deal of pride in the economic power of this
Nation, and we have i~ right to, but if we do, we also have to take
responsibility for institutionalized poverty.
I think as your he.arings proceed under your leadership, a way at
least, at least very strong steps in the direction of solution of this,
we also have to keep in mind the historic causes of poverty as we go
along in this country and the moral responsibilit.y of America as a
Nation to do something about it. Thank you.
Chairman PERKINS. I want to compliment both of you distinguished
gentlemen on your statements. I take it you gentlemen do not believe
in the status quo, but until something better comes along and construc-
tive expansion is proposed, that we should at least not give up what
we have `accomplished; is that your views?
Father MCCARTHY. It certainly would be.
Chairman PERKINS. Would you care to comment on that, Mon-
sianor?
Monsignor CORCORAN. Yes ; that is a general principle that certainly
we would subscribe to. I think that it would have the backing of any
thoughtful person. I think that we. do need to learn by what we have
done, that we have to continue what we are doing when it has been
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1588
proven that it is worth while, and that we continue to expand it when
the need is there. I think that the need is far beyond what we have
so far launched.
Chairman PERKINS. You may go ahead.
Father MCCARTHY. I would like to leave, Mr. Chairman, a dis-
cussion of many of the programs, program possibilities and program
problems, to Monsignor Corcoran. As you may know, the National
Conference of Catholic Charities is a very well established organiza-
tion, going back to 1910, established in every diocese in the country,
and it is heavily involved in programing.
My office, the division for poverty of the U.S. conference, is a rela-
tively new operation, in which the Catholic Church, in its institutional
form, the U.S. Catholic Conference, provides itself with an ear and
an open heart into the problems of the loor in this country, as we
come in contact with them as individuals or in this alley or street and
also in the rapidly multiplying organizations of the poor.
We are all familiar with the Southern Christian Leadership Con-
ference, but other groups like the counnunity organizations or welfare
groups being developed in metropolitan or rural areas around the
Nation, it is hoped my office will develop close ties with these organiza-
tions of the poor, that in reverse order, the Catholic Church, which
is itself a large organization, will be able to have a very strong tie-in
to poverty situations and be able to respond to poverty needs. End of
speech.
Chairman PERKINS. Thank you, gentlemen. Go ahead, Mr. Esch.
Mr. ESCH. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I, too, would like
to welcome you here.
I speak very highly of the work and involvement of the so-called
private sector not only in OEO but in our job-training programs and
in a variety of related programs.
I know, too, that. the work of the migrant affects not only the Far
West hut also States such as my own. AftQr a 2-year battle we had
with OEO to keel) open a migrant center in my own district, the
Catholic Church coordinated on a whole program for the migrant
and migrant families.
I am especially appreciative of your views that we need to develop
cooperative programs between the Government and the private sec-
tor. WTe think the problem is too large for any one sector to ever
succeed alone.
One or two points in regard to your testimony: I would appreciate
your delineating for us what problems are involved in the transfer of
poverty programs for example, of Headstart.. We have had a dialog
going on here in which one side of the table suggests that we cannot
in any way transfer Headstart or Job Corps, and the other says we
are going to and we must to make the best of it.
I would hope that as the ma~hinerv for transfering begins to take
shape your group might come back and present their views on how
we might effectively bring about the change.
Regarding the Job Corps, you have emphasized that there must
be a focus on youth training, and that the training must be in market-
able skills. You also indicated that the agency directing the Job Corps
must continue its concern for the total youth and all of his problems.
Would you want to comment on that?
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1589
Monsignor ConconAx. Yes. Really, it will take two comments, and
I will start with the last first. I would like to hop back, for a moment,
to the I-leadstart, which I think you also recognize, even though we
delineate certain conditions, we are speaking primarily of the advances
that Headstart has made in its present locale, and we prefer to see
it there.
Speaking of the Job Corps-and, as I say, I would have two com-
ments; I think you are focusing upon two things, and I would take
the latter first. That is, the concern for the total youth and all of his
problems. I couldn't help but be struck-obviously everybody else
was-by a discussion this morning that reflects a lot of discussion
which has been going on: The Job Corps is intended to help youths
obtain the type of training they need in order to obtain a job. But
sometimes I think maybe it is not sufficiently clear, well understood,
that the Job Corps is really almost a total rehabilitation program, that
it is not just a matter of training someone for a job such as an ap-
prentice or a carpenter or something like that; you have so many other
things, so many other problems; and therefore it is more akin, I think,
to a lot of the residential treatment centers, for instance, that we
have.
This is where the whole matter of money comes in. I am thinking of
the discussion this morning; I know one of our residential treatment
centers where the per diem cost is somewhere around $45. You add
that up to a whole year, and that is around $15,000.
So when you are talking about the Job Corps, you are talking about
rehabilitation; and when you are `talking about rehabilitation, you
are talking about expense and there is no way to get around it. So
that would be the one thing on that second one. And the total, it does
touch on the other two; namely, it is a rehabilitation process, total
youth, all of his problems, and not just teaching him a skill. That is
important and that is the objective, but the other things must be
done.
Mr. EscH. We have to have the individual begin to relate to his
environment, and perhaps we also should have the environment
relate to him.
Monsignor CORCORAN. We are certainly in agreement with that.
This would be the total adjustment of community to individual, and
individual to'community, and having the ability to do that.
Mr. Esci-i. I guess this is where we focus on the problem of the Job
Corps. We are both aware there are some individuals in our commu-
nities today that may well need a Job Corps type of experience in
order to be able to develop. But for each one of those, there are
countless others who might benefit more, at less cost, and with another
type of poverty program.
We must develop stronger community action programs at the local
level to relate to the individual, the unemployed and underemployed,
and personal lack of motivation.
Monsignor COROORAN. I would like very much to comment on that
if I could, because I think you are touching once again on some very
basic things. What you are saying is something that relates to some
of the things we have gone through in the whole field of child care
for years; namely, that you have to have an individualized plan for
every youngster if you are going to meet his individualized needs.
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1590
Once again, I think we have to recognize this is an expensive thing.
o. 2, you have to have a flexible, broad expanse of resources to bring
into play, to meet those needs once you have assessed them.
ow. the different proposals that are being made, maybe we need
some of these additional types of resources, but I think that anybody
that I have talked to would say we don't need them at the expense of
existing resources, that we need probably more than we are even
thinking of right now, as time goes on they will be refined and addi-
tional ones will come through clearer, we have to be able to respond
to the needs of this individual child, this individual youth in this
instance, and I am speaking from, for instance, I have not seen a
minicente.r and don't know what it will do, but I do know that flexible
and broad expanse of resources are needed and they have to be able
to respond to the individualized needs of the child, of the youth,
and therefore we have to tailor them accordingly.
Mr. ESCH. Sometimes the OEO programs are sometimes attitudinal
in nature. I think part of our problem in the dialog that has been
going on in the last few weeks has been an attempt to polarize-to
indicate that if we do away with the Job Corps, we are going to
totally neglect the youth.
I think probably what we really need is to define what the role of
the Job Corps in the coming decade should be and how it relates to
other programs in a local community.
Many of us feel that the so-called CAP programs might serve
as a channel of communication and as a catalyst, and even though
Headst.art might be placed in a child-development agency, Job Corps
will be over here in Labor, that CAP is still a fundamental place in
whic.h we can have innovation. Most importantly CAP can serve
as a means of communicating with individuals in counseling functions,
family involvement functions, involvement with social agency
functions, etc.
Would you want to comment on this?
Father McCARTHY. In my testimony, I say the CAP program, as
was originally envisioned, I thought, was a very marvelous idea and
also a very basically conservative position. You are getting local
people together to study local problems to the extent they were local
and with the assistance of Federal resources to confront these prob-
lems but with local controls, without in any way discrediting the
marvelous programs that have been developed in Washington such
as a Job Corps and Headstart.
You soon found a situation, though, where in a sense the local
CAP's were frequently burdened with the organizational responsi-
bilities of running programs packaged in Washington. I think it
would be possible for them, if beefed up properly, and as they gradu-
ally evolve ai~l develop strength, to be able to do those things, because
many programs must be national in scope.
I think to a certain extent the local initiative in some CAP opera-
tions were sapped, because in a very short period of time heavy pro-
grams were put upon them. Tha.t does not mean, I am not trying to
say then they should not have had those programs; they are fine.
But I would like to see even greater initiative made possible by addi-
tional staffing and funding than is presently the situation.
Mr. ESOH. I strongly support the development of a more active
counselor role in CAP programs. You said, in effect, that even though
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1591
:cou wanted to have national-priorities emphasis, you still believe
strongly in the local communities trying to establish new programs
with less central control.
I seem to sense some kind of move toward block grants and toward
consolidation of programs.
Father MCCARTHY. I am sorry that Mrs. Green is not here right
now, because I recognize the importance of the States, butT also-also
the act as originally envisioned was with a great deal of power to the
director and bypass authority and so on; I have to say I am sorry
it is unpleasant, but I am glad I am able to say, as a southerner from
the great State of Texas, if you looked around the South as I was
growing up and concerned about the problems of the poor, you didn't
look for much help from State government. If you were concerned
about justice, you didn't look for much help from governments.
In 1964, when we were trying to get the people the right to vote in
the United States of America and trying to get them the right to have
human dignity and walk into a restaurant in dignity, to at the same
time not have laid at the feet of State governments a great deal of
responsibility for these situations, you just have to be blind.
So without in any way denying the importance of the States and
those that really want to actively involve themselves in an organiza-
tional and structured way in a war on poverty-tremendous-but
going back 5 years a.go, I am in full sympathy with the idea in the
original OEO concept which gave the director a great deal of dis-
cretionary power and enabled him to bypass State and local govern-
ments in order to get straight into an indigenous area where people
needed help desperately, and part of their problem was the local and
State governments structured against them.
Mr. ESCH. I think there are individuals on both sides of the aisle
who will concur that we are reaching a point where there must be a
mechanism to encourage State responsibilities. We have matured as
a nation to the point where some States are going to accept more of
that responsibility. I think the Federal Government's role is to encour-
age the States' responsibility by whatever measure we can.
Chairman PERKINS. Comment on whether you want to turn these
programs over to the State, if not outright, to administer and to coor-
ments in order to get straight into an indigenous area where people
they are supposed to reach.
Mr. ESCH. That, Mr. Chairman, was a biased question.
Father MCCARTHY. He is probably going to get a biased answer,
so that is all right.
Mr. ESCH. I think you, in your question, presupposed some con-
ditions. I would suggest that there should be more involvement in
those States who are willing to involve themselves in the poverty pro-
gram. Certainly for those States that will not accept the responsi-
bility, there should be bypass provisions.
Chairman PERKINS. All right; do you wish to comment as he had?
Father MCCARTHY. I will give my answer before either of you
ask a question, if I may.
Chairman PERKINS. Yes.
Father MCCARTHY. If you want to discuss block grants and in the
great beyond, in the abstract, I don't see how anyone could be against
them in theory. That is the channel in which we are set up. In the con-
crete-and I admit my answer is prejudiced by 38 years of living in
PAGENO="0160"
1592
the South-I would say, Mr. Congressman Esch, that those States
that have proven that they are genuinely interested in putting some
of their own State resources and energies into the poverty programs
across the board, we should give that consideration.
I am not talking about Michigan, where I have been in the rural
areas of Michigan and seen some of the migrants' programs going on
there; I am not talking about that. But at the present time, there is
no reason for hoping for that kind of movement of the States of the
old Confederacy, which, in my opening remarks, when we talk about
poverty in the country, it. was manufactured in the. South and in the
Southwest, and it was in an effort to make black people, keep the black
people poor and keep the Mexican Americans poor in the 19th century
agricultural economy in order to have a superabundance of field hands,
and the white majority there made themselves poor.
So national poverty is an extension of the historic factors that took
place in the 19th century in the South and Southwest. That is still
the root area of poverty. You look at a. hunger map, it is the same
thing. There is Appalachia. and Maine, but in general poverty runs
along the southern perimeter of the United States of America.
Now, that is where we need massive programs. I don't see at this
time giving to the State government.s that had a certain role to play
in producing that poverty the. key to supposedly getting us out of it.
Mr. Eson. This problem was brought up in nutrition hearings this
comn-iittee held just a year ago.
I think we can't forget, too, the problems in the South become the
problems of the big cities where the migration is.
Father MCCARTHY. Right.
Mr. Eson. I think it is a national problem and not only a national
problem but a. very human problem. I apprecia.te the necessity of the
private sector, especially the church, becoming involved not only in
large c.ities but also in the pockets of poverty in the southeastern part
of the country. Thank you very much.
Chairman P~nKIxs. Do you have any other comments, Monsignor?
Do you agree?
Monsignor CORCORAN. I think I would go along with that. You are
speaking about the block-grant thing particularly?
Chairman PERKINS. Yes.
Monsignor CORCORAN. I think I can sympathize with some of the
local people, the State people, who are finding it very difficult to find
money to run programs, a.nd it seems that everbody naturally looks
to the Federal Government to provide that money. and secondly they
look to the Federal Government to provide it in a way that they who
are asking for it would like to have it provided, and I think that this
is a very tempting thing.
But at the same time, I think that in the. whole area of poverty, and,
I am sure-well, in the whole area; I will say that first-in the whole
area of poverty, we would run into the types of difficulties that Father
McCarthy mentioned in such types of grants.
I would want to say, I am sure he would be implying, that when he
speaks about the South. lie does not, he doesn't mean "from Kentucky."
Chairman PERKINS. Any further questions?
Mr. Escu. None., sir.
PAGENO="0161"
1593
Chairman PERKINS. Thank you, gentlemen, very much for your
appearance here today. You have been most helpful to the committee,
and we will welcome you back sometime in `the future. -
Mr. Hecht, I want to welcome you back before the committee. You
were one of the first witnesses that appeared before the committee 20
years ago, when I first came to Congress, on the vocational rehabilita-
tion bill. That was talking about physically handicapped. We are
delighted to welcome you back.
STATEMENT OP GEORG-E 3. HECHT, CHAIRMAN, THE AMERICAN
PARENTS COMMITTEE, INC., AND PUBLISHER OP PARENTS' MAG-
AZINE, ACCOMPANIED BY BARBARA B. MOGARRY, EXECUTIVE
DIRECTOR, THE AMERICAN PARENTS COMMITTEE, INC.
Mr. HECHT. I am flattered you remember it. I have been testifying
before congressional committees very regularly, only on one subject,
however, the welfare of children-the education and health and
welfare of children.
Chairman PERKINS. Your remarks will be inserted in the record, but
you may proceed in any manner you prefer.
Mr. HECIIT. For the sake of the record, I want to say my name is
George Hecht and I am publisher of Parents' magazine, and may I
present Mrs. McGarry, who is executive director of the American
Parents Committee, an organization which I founded some 20 years
ago and of which I am chairman.
At our national board of directors meeting in New York City on
January 29, 1969, one of the resolutions, passed unanimously, advocated
the establishment of an independent Office of Services to Children and
Youth, `to report directly to the Secretary of Health, Education, and
Welfare. Such an Office, we believe, could better coordinate all present
fragmented Federal programs for children and youth.
On April 9 President Nixon issued a statement that the I-Ieadstart
program would be delegated on or before July 1, 1969, from the. Office
of Economic Opportunity to the Department of Health, Education,
and Welfare, where the head of this program would report directly
to HEW Secretary Robert H. Finch. The American Parents Com-
mittee heartily approves of this.
On the same date, Secretary Finch announced that he would move
the day care program, now administered by the Children's Bureau,
out of the Bureau and place both Headstart and the day care programs
in a newly created Office of Child Development.
As a result of these moves, responsibility for child development
programs for preschool children will be in the Secretary's Office-
which we approve-but the other programs for children over 5 will
remain at a much lower level in HEW. This is an undesirable frag-
mentation of Federal responsibility for children.
The American Parents Committee respectfully urges that all the
present programs of the Children's Bureau should be placed in the new
Office, along with the Headstart and day care programs, to which they
are closely related. This would increase efficiency and certainly improve
the effectiveness and quality of the work of each agency. This expanded
office, placed directly under the Secretary of HEW. might appro-
priately be called the "Office of Children and Youth," because this unit
27-754-69-pt. 3-ii
PAGENO="0162"
1594
of Government should be the spokesman for and render service to
young people, as well as to children. Unless the various Children's
Bureau programs for children and youth are coordinated with Head-
start and day care, this might unfortunately lead to fragmented,
ununified administration instead of one strong center of concern for
children and youth.
For more than 50 years the U.S. Children's Bureau has rendered
invaluable service to the Nation's youngsters. Created in 1912 by an act
of Congress, the Children's Bureau was set up to investigate and report
to the people on "all matters pertaining to the welfare of children
and child life among all classes of the people," including studies,
preparation, and implementation of recommendations, establishment
of standards, and methods of care and services to children and youth,
consultation with agencies, organizations, and institutions on programs
for children and youth.
Included among the Bureau's basic activities are now the Children's
Bureau's program of consultation on juvenile delinquency and juvenile
courts, the Clearinghouse on Research affecting children and youth,
contacts with the United Nation's Children's Fund (UNICEF), and
last but not least, the preparation and distribution of bulletins for par-
ents, such as "Infant Care."
To these important functions of the Children's Bureau there have
been added, by the provisions of the Social Security Act: the pro-
grams of grants-in-aid to the Sta.tes for maternity and child health,
crippled children, and child welfare. For these three programs the
Congress has appropriated somewhat more than $321 million for the
Federal Government's fiscal year ending June 30, 1969. Hopefully
the *Congress will appropriate at least as much for the next fiscal
year.
For the first 33 years of its life, the Chief of the Children's Bureau
reported directly to the Secretary of Labor. In 1946 the Bureau was
transferred to the Federal Security Agency-now the Department of
Health, Education, and Welfare-and was placed within the Social
Security Administration. The Chief of the Children's Bureau became
responsible to the Social Security Administrator and no longer re-
ported to the Secretary directly.
By this change in line responsibility, the voice of the Children's Bu-
reau was no longer heard in the councils of the Secretary where de-
partmental policy is made. Its role as "spokesman for children" was
greatly diminished and its influence downgraded.
Two years ago the Bureau was again shifted and placed within a
new division of the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare,
known as the Social and Rehabilitation Service. Since then the~ Bu-
reau's administrative and `program staff has been reduced and in gen-
eral its `stature further weakened. Recently there has been an attempt
to abolish the Children's Bureau altogether. Many times in the past
a.nd even now effort has been made to divide its functions by trans-
ferring `all of its health programs to the Health Services and Mental
Health Administration of the Department of HEW.
Instead of thus weakening the Children's Bureau. we believe it
should be enlarged and strengthened and placed at the top level in the
Department structure where its Chief would have direct access to the
Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare.
PAGENO="0163"
1595
The American Parents Committee urges that both Headstart (moved
from OE'O) and the Children's Bureau (transferred from SRS)
should be placed, as I have said before, into a new Office of Children
and Youth, whose Chief will report directly to the Secretary of HEW.
The Office of Children and Youth should be directed by a person pro-
fessionally qualified in health or social welfare, or if possible both,
and should rank as Assistant Secretary for Children and Youth. How-
ever, as already stated, the Chief of the Children's Bureau and the Di-
rector of Headstart should have direct access, as required, to the Secre-
tary of Health, Education, and Welfare, so as to be in a position to
influence departmental policies affecting children and youth.
It is recommended that the administration of the Juvenile Delin-
quency Act of 1968, which makes grants to the States and communities
for juvenile delinquency prevention and control, should also be trans-
ferred from th~ Social and Rehabilitation Service `and placed in the
Office of Children and Youth. Here it should be combined with the
existing program of `consultation to agencies handling delinquent chil-
dren `and youth now operated by the Children's Bureau, under the
authority given to the Bureau of the act of 1912. This Office should also
include the administration of the White House `Conferences on Chil-
dren `and Youth.
In 1967 the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare gave' to
the Children's Bureau responsibility for administering the program
of social services to families who receive financial assistance under the
important program known as "aid to families with dependent chil-
dren." This function should be retained by the Children's Bureau if
the Bureau is transferred to the Office of Children and Youth. The
responsibility for money payments under the program of aid to fami-
lies with dependent children should remain with the Social and
Rehabilitation Service for administrative efficiency.'
All of the above changes can be made by the Secretary of 1-Iealth,
Education, and Welfare. No congressional action is needed.
At some later date, a study should be made of the wisdom of also
placing other programs for children now scattered through various
Government departments in the new Office of Children and Youth.
This might include programs for Indian children, the school lunch
program, and certain research on problems of children.
A unifled'Office of Children and Youth would be much more efficient
than the present scattered and fragmented programs now operated
under widely separated administrative units.
I respectfully ask permission to have included into the record of
this hearing an editorial on the unmet needs of children, written by
Mr. W. 0. Heinze, president of the Child Welfare League of America,
which appeared in the March 1969 issue of Parents' magazine. Thank
you very much, Mr. Chairman.
(The document referred to follows:)
[Parents' Magazine, March 1069]
GUEST EDITORIAL-EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL CHILDREN
(By W. 0. Heinze)
Very few communities in the United States today are doing all they can-and
should-to meet the ileeds of all their children. An estimated 10 million young-
sters are dependent, neglected, or homeless; only a small fraction of their number
are getting child welfare services.
PAGENO="0164"
1596
Most Americans are simply not aware of the conditions that crush so many chil-
dren; Congress all but i~rnres their plight. If more of us were aware of the
deprivations these children endure, and understood how important child welfare
services are to their lives-and to the health of society-we would insist that
children's needs be given primary consideration.
As a nation, we lack commitment to children. Consider, for example, the fol-
lowing figures: in 1967, Federal benefits and services of all kinds for people over
65 amounted to an average outlay of $1,350 per person; for children under six,
the average was about $85 per child. In 1967, Federal health expenditures for
persons over 65 averaged $234 per person; for children under 6, the average was
$8 per child.
Child welfare service encompasses preventive work with children living with
their own families; day care; adoption; foster care; protective and other serv-
ices. It is the only area of human need for which the Federal goveriiment does not
provide funds on a matching basis with the states. Day care, for example, is not
supported by matching Federal funds. There are more than 11 million children
under the age of 12 whose mothers are employed-yet throughout the country
there are day care centers for only 500,000 children.
Recent legislation will provide Federal aid for the day care of one special
group of children-those receiving financial assistance from the Aid to Families
with Dependent Children Program. Why these children and not others? Because
legislation demands that the mothers of these children take jobs if the families
are to continue to receive financial aid. In other words, Congress has provided day
care funds in order to release mothers for jobs outside the home-not because
of a primary concern for the child's needs.
Head Start, regarded as one of the most successful programs for meeting the
educational, health, and social needs of young children, is constantly plagued by
the possibility of curtailed funds and by plans which w-ould dilute the effective-
ness of the program.
Equality of opportunity does not exist for millions of American children. The
mothers of one fourth of the babies born today have no medical attention during
pregnancy, subsist on deficient diets, and are given inadequate obstetrical care.
The children of such mothers are disadvantaged from the moment of birth. Recent
studies have shown that if an infant receives an inadequate supply of protein
before birth and during the first few months of life, when new brain cells are
being formed, the result may be permanent brain damage.
If all our children are to have an equal chance, it is clear that every child has
the right to adequate food, shelter, and medical care. Yet we know that of the
millions of children living in poverty, the majority of them suffer from severe
malnutrition, receive no medical care, and endure the inhuman conditions of slum
housing.
Because of the extreme shortage of child welfare services, there are children
who spend all of their early years waiting to be adopted; there are children who
are abused; there are children who are shifted from one foster home to another
without any chance to develop firm roots and family ties. These children grow up
without security, without affection, without any sense of belonging. We hear
about programs being planned today that are designed to give young people equal
opportunities for education and jobs. But boys and girls who've been disadvan-
taged from birth may not be able to get the higher education it takes to land a
good job.
Equality of opportunity depends on the country's efforts in behalf of those
children. Many of them need financial help; an even larger number need welfare
services that can support, supplement or substitute for parental care. We must
guarantee all children-as a matter of right-opportunities for growth.
Chairman PnilKn~s. Thank you for your statement, Mr. Hecht.. We
are always delighted to see you come before this committee. Mr. Esch.
Mr. E5CH. You said there is a need for the development of an agency
or department that could serve as kind of a catalyst for all of the
divided efforts we now have pertaining to youth and to the child
development.
Mr. HEGHT. Yes.
Mr. Eson. What might the Government, in this new agency, do to
strengthen the family relationships? Do you have any specific sugges-
tions there?
PAGENO="0165"
1597
Mr. HECHT. Well, Headstart has, as a part of its functions, the edu-
cation of the parents on the nutrition of the children, and many of the
programs for children include work on educating the parents on how
to care for the children and their families.
On that point, I have a statement by-that I didn't put in my testi-
mony, because it arrived only yesterday-Dr. Julius Richmond, who
is the first National Director of Headstart and is now dean of the Col-
lege of Medicine of Syracuse University and professor and chairman
of the Department of Pediatrics of the State University of New York
at its upstate medical center.
This points out the many health advantages of Headstart, which, if
put into the Department, this Headstart program, if it is put into the
Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, can be closely co-
ordinated with the health and nutrition programs already adminis-
tered by the Children's Bureau, which is in that Department.
That is another very important reason why Headstart and the
Children's Bureau's programs for maternal and child health and other
health programs should be coordinated in one office.
I am not going to take the time to read this.
Mr. Escu. I would ask permission to have the doctor's testimony
made a part of the record.
Chairman PERKINS. Without objection, it is so ordered.
(The document referred to follows:)
STATEMENT BY DR. JULIUS RICHMOND, DEAN, COLLEGE OF MEDICINE, SYRACUSE
UNIVERSITY
In financial terms, approximately 7% of the funds for each four-year Head
Start child are used for health purposes, 13% for nutrition. It would be entirely
inappropriate to distribute the benefits of these two program ingredients on that
basis, however. The problems of polling the results of the total Head Start ex-
perience are prodigious. Distributing the impact of discreet parts of Head Start
on children and families, such as the health component, the parent involvement
aspect and the education factor, would be close to impossible, given the current
state of the measuring art. Each component, by design, is intertwined with the
other. The various specialists who work with the Head Start child and his family
are encouraged to relate very closely with each other exchanging appropriate in-
formation and applying their combined knowledge to the problems they find.
The correction of health defects certainly enhances the child's potential for
learning. For example, improving the child's vision improves his capacity to learn
in many ways; improving his nutrition provides him with more energy which
similarly improves his learning potentiality. Also the education benefits which
children and parents derive influence the over-all health of the family-particu-
larly their understanding of proper utilization of health resources.
Mr. ESCH. I appreciate your comments, Mr. Hecht, and especially
your experience base, and now you are suggesting that the need for
this kind of catalystic agent is the No. 1 priority of the country. I am
pleased to say the President has indicated it as one of his No. 1 prior-
ities for the corning year. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. Any further questions?
Let me thank you very much, Mr. Hecht. We appreciate your com-
ing. We look forward to your coming back in the future.
Come around, Mr. Goldenlberg, director of the Training and Re-
search Institute for Residential Youth Centers of New Haven, Conn.
Mrs. Caroline Glassman, vice president, Down East (WICS), Port-
land, Maine, Mrs. Glassman, it is a great pleasure to welcome you here.
We will be looking forward to your statement, and if you have a pre-
pared statement, you may insert it in the record and you may proceed
in any way you want to.
PAGENO="0166"
1598
STATEMENT OP CAROLINE GLASSMAN, VICE PRESIDENT, DOWN
EAST (WICS), PORTLAND, MAINE
Mrs. GLASSMAN. I do not have a written statement.
`Chairman PERKINS. All right.
Mrs. GLASSMAN. I am Caroline Glassman. I hold `a position in the
-women's intercommunity services, `which i's `a voluntary organization
made up of four religious groups-the Council of Catholic Women,
`Council of Jewish `Women. Council of United Church `Women, and
Council of Negro `Women. This organization wa's formed for the pur-
pose of voluntarily screening girls for the Job Corps. In this way, the
organization came into being in Portland, Maine, in 1966.
`We then, `as we started screening girls for `the Job Corps, became
aware of the. fact. that within our community of 7~,OOO people of Port-
land, Maine, there were a number of youngsters who qualified for the
Job `Corps but did not wish to go to the Job Corps. I am speaking just
of girls. Also, we found tha't although Portland, Maine, is a. small
city, it was the `focal point for the entire State and there was a great
deal of migration into the city by young `women and particularly
young women who were school dropouts and who had no skills.
Desiring to do something about this, we proposed to the Labor De-
partment that. we be allowed to establish a. residence that would serve
as `a. supporting facility for these girls because we `found many o'f them
`were either completely `rejected by their pa.rents, they had no parents,
or they `did not wish t.o live with their parents, and they still, as I said,
were. unskilled and unemployed.
`\~\Te offered no training programs in this; it was initiated to com-
pletely use all of the manpower programs in operation in the city and
all of the supporting facilities within the city.
One' factor that. we feel was very unusual about this: This center
operates with a. nonprofessional staff of six people and they are all
volunteers. The volunteers are a cross section of our `community, made
up of women of all social and economic groups and women of all ages.
The center houses 16 girls, and our purpose at one time, our purpose is
to provide for these girls a background that is like a. home; it is like,
well, "institutional" setting is not exactly the word; each girl is as-
signed a. volunteer that works with her personally as well `as supporting
volunteers who `act. as advocates for `her family if her family resides in
the community or for herself.
The criteria, for admission to the center is: The gi'rl must meet the
OEO economic `background, must. be either a school `dropout or having
a great bit of `difficulty in school, a. potential s~hool `dropou't.
Ohairman PERKINS. When `did von first establish it?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. In 196g.
Chairman PERKINS. Did you get. any funds from OEO or from the
other governmental organizations'?
Mrs. QLASSMAX. Our funds came from the Manpower Research a.nd
Evaluation Department..
`Chairman PERKINS. How many do you house? How many girls?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. In our `first year, although we had only 16 girls, at
one time we handled. a total of 47 girls.
Chairman PERKINS. In the first yea.r you handled a total of 47 girls?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. `Yes.
PAGENO="0167"
1599
Chairman PERKINS. How many of those girls were placed in em-
ployment?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Twelve.
Chairman PERKINS. Twelve out of the 47?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. And 12 married.
Chairman PERKINS. Twelve got married.
Mrs. GLASSMAN. One girl joined VISTA. Two children returned to
school full time, and `we had three girls that had a record of having
been in a reformatory and were on a probationary period during the
time they were in residence, and upon their severance from residence
were unable to continue by themselves and their probation was re-
voked and they were returned to the training schools.
I would say we have several girls that we have just been unable to
follow up.
Chairman PERKINS. I just wanted a brief recollection without going
into the records you have. Now, that was fine for the first year. What
about the second year; how many girls did you serve?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. We so far have served about-our second phase
started the first of December 1968. At the end of our first quarter, we
served 20 girls by the end of February of 1969.
Chairman PERKINS. How many girls were placed in February?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. We have two that are steadily employed, and the
bulk of these girls are still in our residence.
Chairman PERKINS. You mean they are remaining?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Yes; the ones that started in our second phase are
still in the residence.
Chairman PERKINS. They are still there.
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Ye's. However, two have left and have gone into
steady employment and two have returned to their families, and are in
school, and we have not had any married from this group. The rest
are with us. ` .`
Chairman PERKINS. What is the cost of the training? Do you give
them any prevocational training ,or what do you give them?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Our program consists of: We use, as I discussed.
in the `beginning, what is `available in the community. These girls can
use neighborhood youth programs and manpower training programs
in force and university courses to provide programs for the girls as
far as h'omemaking, budgeting, and we use the local YWCA's, the local
agencies, to provide courses in marriage counseling or marriage prep-
aration, sex education, dressmaking, cooking, and the programs pri-
marily a re centered on the developing of the homemaking talent of the
girls.
Chain nan PERKINS. How often do the girls go home?
Mrs. G-LASSMAN. It varies with each girl.
Chairman PERKINS. Are they `all from the surrounding communi-
ties?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. The majority of them are from Portland. It varies
somewhat because of the migration from the entire State into Portland
of youngsters.
Chairman PERKINS. But they are all from where?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. The State of Maine.
Chairman PERKINS. The State of Maine?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Yes.
PAGENO="0168"
1600
Chairman PERKINS. What does it `cost per enrollee as far as the last
20 you have?
Mrs. `GLASSMAN. It is roughly about $2,300 per enrollee. This is ex-
clusive of Neighborhood Youth Corps salaries, those that are out of
school, Neighborhood Youth Corps, and are getting paid.
`Chairman PERKINS. You don't know how much that amounts to, the
Neighborhood Youth Corps and so forth?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. The ones that are reported in the private sector, the
cost to us is roughly $2,300 a girl for this last, and the ones in the Neigh-
borhood Youth Corps cost about 1,500-and-some `dollars and includes
t.heir salaries that they are receiving through the Neighborhood Youth
Corps; we include that in the costs.
Chairman PERKINS. What other expenses are there to be added on
besides NYC salaries to the $2,300?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. None; because the rest of our girls are employed in
private sector or are in school. So there are no additional expenses that
would `be outgoing.
Chairman PERKINS. Is this a 5-day or 7-day residence center?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. It is a 7-day residence center.
Chairman PERKINS. Is this one of the centers that have been ap-
proved to take some enrollees that are presently enrolled in the Job
Corps center?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. To my knowledge, it has not.
`Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Hathaway.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Thank you very much. I am sorry I was not here
when you first testified. I was tied up in my office; something else re-
mained to be done. I am glad to have you here. You are here at the re-
quest of the Labor Department; is that. right?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. I received a request from Mr. Perkins to attend.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Are you paying your own way back and forth?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. No; I was down here talking to the Labor Depart-
ment in connection with our project.
Mr. HATHAWAY. You don't have a written statement, do you?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. No; I do not.
Mr. HATHAWAY. I presume the chairman has gone into what you
talked about. Have you `been in a position to evaluate the Jdb Corps
program there?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. No, I have not. I will tell you why. Although with
the organization that is the contracting organization for this residential
youth center, as it is a voluntary organization that screens for the Job
Corps training centers, screens girls, at the time we established the
residential youth center, we broke down our own administrative struc-
ture so I have been responsible for the residential youth center, and the
other groups of volunteers are responsible for the screening of girls
for the Job Corps, so any information I have is really what I read in
the papers.
Mr. HATHAWAY. You have no personal knowledge?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. No, I do not.
Mr. HATHAWAY. You take care of the residential premises?
Mrs. QLA55MAN. Yes.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Which has been in existence how long?
Mrs. G-LASSMAN. We had been funded in July and in operation since
October 1, 1967.
PAGENO="0169"
1601
Mr. HATHAWAY. How many students?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Sixteen at one time.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Are they all girls?
Mrs. `GLASSMAN. They are all girls.
Mr. HATHAWAY. From the Portland area?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Primarily from the Portland area but all from the
State of Maine.
Mr. HATHAWAY. How far away do they come from?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. I think presently they are farthest away at Water-
yule. We have a girl from there.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Waterville is how far away-about 50 miles?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Roughly, a little beyond that.
J\Ir. HATHAWAY. It is not a residential center?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. The one I am speaking of?
Mr. HATHAWAY. Well, do some of them stay overnight?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. This is a residential center.
Mr. HATHAWAY. All of them stay overnight?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Yes; this is a 7-day-a-week residential center.
Mr. HATHAWAY. What skills do you train them for?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. We have no training program that goes with it.
These girls are involved in manpower training programs and others
that are in the area.
Mr. HATHAWAY. I see; you just provide them with the residence?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Yes.
Mr. HATHAWAY. And Peace Corps?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Not quite. You see, it was conceived as a project
that would recognize that young women even in our modern-day so-
ciety have a dual purpose not only of being trained to become em-
ployable but being trained to become wives and mothers. The training
programs as such, if you recall them, the ones in residence, are directed
toward training these girls to be better homemakers, to direct it toward
their grooming and how to budget and how to `serve food, how to pre-
pare food, how to keep their rooms, keep the house.
It is a very informal setting and one that is attempting as closely as
possible to simulate a home situation, because it is a small group of
girls and bec'ause there are housemothers who are continuously there;
it is more to treat these girls as if `they are of a family.
Mr. HATHAWAY. What quarters do they stay in? Is it a new building
or existing building?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. It is an existing building that became available
through an estate, and we took it over.
Mr. HATHAWAY. What was it before?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. A private residence.
Mr. HATHAWAY. How long did you say you have had this program?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Since 1967.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Do you have any figures that you can tell us what
the dropout rate is?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. I do have the figures. For the first year of operation,
we handled a total of 47 girls. Their average stay was between 3 and 6
months. Of these girls, 12 of them married.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Before they completed the course?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. No; after they completed-well, there is really no
course we are `offering, `but they left the residence by reason of marriage
or shortly after they left residence they became married.
PAGENO="0170"
1602
Ten of them are working regularly in the private sector; two of
them are attending school regularly; and one of them joined VISTA
and became a VISTA volunteer. Three of the girls were returned to
the Stevens Training Center.
Mr. HATHAWAY. What is the `Stevens Training Center?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. A holding center for girls; girls get there either by
reason that the court feels they need protective custody and cannot be
placed in foster homes or `by reason of misdemeanors they have com-
mitted. There are no felony offenses; otherwise they would go to a
State prison.
The age group covered is from 9' to 21. Many of the girls are
there because of truantism in school. Five of the girls moved out of the
area-moved out, and we were not able t.o follow up on them.
Mr. HATHAWAY. You were not able to?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. We worked with just volunteers and a nonprofes-
sional staff, and it is difficult for the volunteers to work beyond their
termination with the graduates with us. We make every effort, when
a girl is ready to be self-sustaining, to get her to go back to her family.
In the first instance, we try to see that she is placed in a desirable
climate and environment. Much `beyond that we have not iieen able to
follow them.
Mr. HATHAWAY. What are the ages of the girls? What is the age
bracket?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. In the first year, the girls were 16 to 21. In this
second phase, we are taking girls only from 14 to 18..
Mr. HATHAWAY. Now you take girls from 14 to 18?
Mrs. GLASS3IAN. Yes.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Can you tell me how the rest of them are getting
along, and geographically, where is the home located? Is it downtown
or in the outskirts?
Mrs. GLASSMAX. It is located downtown, and if you are familiar, it
is at High and Pleasant Streets, on the corner, and it is about a block
from the main street of the town.
Mr. HATHAWAY. A block from what'?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Congress Street.
Mr. HATHAWAY. I am familiar; it is a Federal building?
Mrs. GLA5SMAX. That is at the other end.
Mi~. HATHAWAY. How far would it be from there?
Mrs. G-LASSMAN. It is on the westerly end of Congress `Street, and it
is nOt far-if you know where the law school is `situated, it is on the
same street as that; it is on the same street at. the bus depot..
Mr. HATHAWAY. Let me quickly inject that Portland is not. in my
district. `
Mrs. GLAssIIAX. Yes.
Mr. HATHAWAY. You mentioned that you teach the girls homemak-
ing and other domestic skills, so-you say some got married `and so
fort;h-it does not necessarily mean they got `a job when they coin-
pleted your course, so you really can measure the effectiveness of your
course not ju'st in terms of job placement?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. That is right. We have felt-and I am speaking
for the sponsoring group with us-that if a girl makes a successful
adjustment to marriage, that we have been successful with her.
PAGENO="0171"
1603
Mr. HATHAWAY. I see. Now, all of these girls, can you give us their
ethnic background? Are there any black girls?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Yes; we have had on occasion, one or two black
girls that came from the Brunswick area. But primarily, as you know,
the State of Maine, there'is less `than six-tenths of 1 percent other than
Caucasians, and this is the community we work with, `so it is predom-
inantly white girls.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Now, t:he `backgrounds of `the girls, would you say
it was comparable `to a girl `applying for the Job Corps?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Yes. She comes from a low standard `of poverty, a
girl who has come from a broken `home or a home in which she simply
cannot function. Most of `these girls come from single-parent homes.
Mr. HATHAWAY (acting chairman). Thank you very `much. Mr.
Esch.
Mr. EscH. `Thank you very much. I just want to compliment Mrs.
Glassm'an for her `attempts to involve volunteers in this program as
well as `for the great strides you have made; I appreciate your
testimony.
Mrs. `G-LASSMAN. Than'k you.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Let me ask you one more question. What is your
cost `per student?
Mrs. QLASSMAN. Cost per student for this quarter,. a per capita cost,
$2,213. This is for the' girl that is employed in the' private sector.
These girls pay one-third of their earnings for rent to us.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Your cost is $2,213 above that?
Mrs. GLA5SMAN. Yes. The girls that are employed in the Neighbor-
hood You'th Corps, out Of schooL if we figure what the Youth Corps
pays her as well as the cost of the residence, then `it averaged about
$5~0OO per capita.
Mr. HATHAWAY. You say the building was given to you?
Mrs. GLAS5MAN. No; we rent the building.
Mr. HATIIAWAY. Is that taken into consideration in the per capita
costs?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. We are taking into consideration all costs-our
rent, or the whole budget.
Mr. HATHAWAY. That would come into the area of $5,000?
Mrs. G-LAS5MAN. If they are in the Neighborhood Youth Corps~ out
of school. As far as the residence i's concerned, it is running $2,300 or
$2~400 ier enrollee.
Mr. HATHAWAY. But that does no't include their education?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. No; it does not.
Mr. HATHAWAY. What is the school cost per capita?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. The cost per capita in the city of Portland, for high
school, is roughly $450 or $500. It is very low in the State `of Maine.
Mr. HATHAWAY. You gave me some figures on the 47 girls you had
come in, in 1967, the first year.
Mrs. G-LASSMAN. Yes.
Mr. HATHAWAY. I added up the figure, and it adds up to 31, and
there seems to be 16 missing. Maybe I interrupted you before you
finished.
Mrs. GLASSMAN. We had 12 married, 10 working regularly, two in
training school regularly, one in VISTA volunteers, five moved from
the area, three back to the Stevens Training School, and 12 girls we
don't know what happened to them.
PAGENO="0172"
1604
Mr. HATHAWAY. That brings it, then, up to 43.
Mrs. GLASSMAN. I am sorry.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Maybe I added wrong. I get 45. Does yours add up
to 47?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. I have not added up what I gave you. If there is a
discrepancy, I apologize for the two that I gave in addition.
I get 45 in adding it up. We have lost two, I guess.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Can you give us a comment on the community par-
ticipation in your effort both from the community and girls from the
community?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. We have had good response from the community.
Mr. HATHAWAY. In what form?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Well, we look to the community to provide the
medical care through the main medical center clinics, we look to the
private social agencies to assist us in working with the family and
working with the girls. Our child and family services as well as the
State agency, State department of health and welfare, and we look to
our local YWCA to assist in helping us with recreational programs.
We look to the University of Maine to give, through their extension
service, the training programs we offer in budgeting, and so forth. We
look actually to our local medical people and local university people
to get the programs that are put on in marriage preparation, sex edu-
cation, and so on. Their response has been a very satisfactory one. We
also asked of our community to help us provide recreation for these
girls.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Thank you; I have to leave for a vote.
Chairman PERKINS. We will recess for 10 minutes.
(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)
Chairman PERKINS. The committee will come to order.
Mrs. Glassman, I want to make sure I understand the cost figures
for the first 40-was it 45 or 47 in the first year?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. It was 47.
Chairman PERKINS. The 47 were enrolled from 3 to 6 months?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. This was an average, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. Average?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Yes.
Chairman PERKINS. Average for what duration?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. I can give you a breakdown on this. Ten of the girls
stayed only 1 month. Sixteen of them stayed 1 to 3 months. Fourteen
of them stayed 3 to 6 months, and seven of the girls stayed over 6
months of this first 47 during our first year.
Chairman PERKINS. And the cost average of the 47 is what?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. The cost average of the 47, per capita I am speaking
of, was roughly about $2,213.
Chairman PERKINS. Yes, about $2,250. Tha.t does not include the
education?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. No, it does not.
Chairman PERKINS. WhO performs the educational services?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. The public schools; they attend public schools.
Chairman PERKINS. They attend them?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. They are in school, attending.
Chairman PERKINS. These. are the regular public schools that they
attend in the area?
PAGENO="0173"
1605
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Yes.
Chairman PERKINS. What are the grades mostly? Are they in ele-
mentary or secondary schools?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. They are in secondary schools.
Chairman PERKINS. All of them are in secondary schools; all of them
this year are in secondary schools?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. And I am including junior, senior high-ninth,
10th, 11th, and 12th grades.
Chairman PERKINS. I see. The medical facilities, those facilities are
not included in this cost?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. No, they are not, the medical care given to them
is provided by the clinics in the city, which are available to them as
just residents of the community.
Chairman PERKINS. Who pays their medical bills, provides the med-
ical treatment for them?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Well, if they require medical treatment, this is a
responsibility that must `be assumed by the girl herself or parents.
Chairman PERKINS. By their friends or some charitable institution
or someone else?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Yes. The free clinics in the city are available to `them
for physical examination and for what care is offered. A free clinic
service is available to them and they use it.
Chairman PERKINS. But the free clinic service is limited in scope,
isn't it?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. We have quite extensive clinic services in the city
of Portland in that we are fortunate in `having a medical center which
is the la'regst north of `Boston, so the clinic service is good and extensive.
Oha'irm'an PERKINS. This $2,250 figure does not include dental
services?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. It does not. We have a dental clinic in the city of
Portland that carries children through the `age of 14, so that those
girls and above that they will only do extractions. They do not do any
replacement or any regular care of teeth. Again, thi's `has to be provided
as a charitable thing by the community or a responsibility assumed by
the girls.
`Chairman PERKINS. The girls go to school during the regular school
hours `during the day and then participate in the extra activities and
training programs with you after school and before school, am I
correct?
`Mrs. GLASSMAN. Yes.
Ohai'rman PERKINS. `Now, you don't know what the educational
services are or would amount to; are `there expenditures there?
Mrs. GLAS5MAN. Yes, it so happens I do know, if you are speaking of
costs.
Chairman PERKINS. Yes.
Mrs. GLASSMAN. The cost to the community or to the State of Maine,
the per `capita cost for educationg a child in high school in the city of
Portland is roughly $450 `a year.
`Chairman PERKINS. Roughly $450 a year.
That is all. Mr. Buckley.
Mr. BUCKLEY. You `don't consider the `stipend that the girls get from
the neighborhood youth programs in your costs, `do you?
`Mrs. GLASSMAN. No, we do not.
PAGENO="0174"
1606
Mr. BUCKLEY. Are these girls, as a rule, `in school when they come
to you or when you find them?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Some of them are and some are not. I would say
that the majority of them are not. They are school dropouts.
Mr. BUCKLEY. How many would you say of the 47 figure that you
used or for the current enrollees were school dropouts when they were
enrolled in the program where you have been persuading or motivating
them to goto school?
Mrs. GLASSXtAN. Of the 47 in our first year of the program, our age
limit was 16 to 21. I would say the vast majority of those youngsters
were school dropouts. Of those, we were successful in getting only two
of them to return to school on a regular basis and complete their
education.
Presently, our age group that we are covering is 14 to 18. Now more
of these girls are in school or have just been recent dropouts at the
time that they come to the residence. With these, we have been more
successful in getting them, to continue with their education.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Who provides the counseling service for the center,
for the program?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. We have no professional counseling service other
than what is available in the community, because the program was de-
signed to use an observational staff and to use volunteers. Each girl
inthe residence has `a basic volunteer who works with her.
In addition to that, other supporting volunteers work as `advocates of
her family, as the girl's advocate in the school system, if this is neces-
sary, but we do not, within the residence, give'any professional counsel-
ing. `If there .is a determination that `the girl needs some professional
co.unseling, we then act as her advocate in securing the counseling for
her at the private or public agencies in the community.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Is there any expense to the center `for that?
Mrs. G-LASSMAN. No. These agencies operate on, well, our feeling
being that these girls are residents in the community and there is a re-
sponsibility on the part of ~the community to provide certain services
to them as they do for anyone else who resides in the community. The
private agencies charge on a basis of what a person can afford. With
these girls unable to pay, they get counseling for nothing. If the girl
is able to pay~ it varies with each agency, but there is no expense
borne `by the residence for this.
Mr. BUCKLEY. How do you find these `girls; what is the general proc-
ess of determing the girls that have need for your program?
Mrs. Gr~&ss~1Ax. They are referred to us `by a number of sources-
from `school counselors within the. school system; we get them from
probation officers, from the juvenile courts, from the private and public
agencies, the State department of health and welfare if they have be-
come wards of the State, from private social agencies. We get them
from the Stevens Training Center I spoke of; that is a holding institu-
tion for girls between the ages of 9 and 21. When they are released in
the State of Maine, there is no provision for followup care of young-
sters released from that training center and we get `them referred `to us
from the training center upon their release if the girl cannot go back
into a home situation or has no home.
Some of the girls refer themselves. Some of the parents come to us
and make inquiry. So we have a variety of referral methods to the
center.
PAGENO="0175"
1607
Mr. BUCKLEY. Why is it these girls were not referred to or didn't go
to the Job Corps program?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. Primarily because they did not want to. Of course,
in this age group of 14 to 18, the 14- and 15-year-olds do not qualify
for the Job Corps.
In the first year of experience, and the very reason we proposed this
residence, was because, as with the voluntary organizations screening
for the Job Corps in the State of Maine, they discovered a number of
girls that did not want to go to the Job Corps for various reasons but
who, at the same time, were in the low economic group, school drop-
outs, untrained, unskilled, and having a great many problems, most of
them enrolled in manpower programs within the community like the
Neighborhood Youth Corps or MDTA or whose home situations were
nonexistent or very unsatisfactory. It was the feeling of the direc-
tors of the manpower program that progress could not be made with
such a youngster because she would return to her affiliation at night,
which would destroy what had been done during the day. We proposed
this residence to provide the support of a family situation to ongoing
manpower programs within the community.
Mr. BUCKLEY. In connection with the Job Corps, there has always
been the thought that there are numbers of youths, boys and girls, and
men and women, that need to be removed from their environment and
were removed several hundred miles. away in order that they would he
relieved of pressures and environmental things that they were handi-
capped by.
Now, this is not true in your case. How do you overcome or protect
enrollees from the environmental factors that account for their being
dropouts and probably not motivated, since you don't take any from.
their neighborhoods ~
Mrs GLASSMAN There is an offsetting influence, I think, just by the
existence of the residence itself and the manner in which it operates
We make no `~tternpt to interfere at all in the relationship between the
child and parent In fact, we encourage a renewal of the relationship
if it is at all possible, that it can be a continuing relationship although
the girl lives in the residence.
Through the efforts of the volunteers that act in a role of big sisters
to these girls, we attempt to not impose upon them our standards but
to develop with the girl a recognition of what is involved as she Eol-
lows a certain course of conduct. The volunteers that act in a big-sister
role undergo an in-service training that is conducted as a part of their
becoming volunteers to give them a better understanding of the prob-
lems these young girls have. They are part of the community; we feel
that they should remain a part of the community because they want to,
but we hope they will make the necessary adjustments to function
better within the community. I don't know if that answers your
question.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Do you feel it is necessary to remove this type of girl
several hundred miles in order to attain the objective that your pro-
gram has, with regard to motivation and rehabilitation?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. I would answer by saying the girls we are dealing
with in the residence, they themselves have made their decision, they
decided they did not want to go to the Job Corps, so they are in the
PAGENO="0176"
1608
community. We view this as an attempt on the part of our community,
using our community facilities and supporting services that are avail-
able, to allow her to function better within the community; so I have
no comment other than, as I say, the girl has already made that deci-
sion, she made the decision to remain in the community before we
came in contact with her in the center.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Do you have any that were in the Job Corps and
dropped out, those girls in your program?
Mrs. GLASSMAN. No. That is, with the possible exception of a girl-
I think, early in the first phase, we had one girl who was not antici-
pating being a permanent resident, who stayed a couple of weeks uiitil
she could get a place to live and she had a job and we provided her with
a bed for a week or two.
Mr. BUCKLEY. That is all.
Chairman PERKINS. Let me thank you, too, Mrs. Glassman. WTe ap-
preciate your statement. I want you to come back whenever you have a
chance.
Mrs. G-LASSMAN. Thank you.
Chairman PERKINS. Dr. Ira Goldenberg, director of the Training
and Research Institute for residential youth centers. Please come
around.
STATEMENT OF I. IRA GOLDEI'TBERG, DIRECTOR, TRAINING AND
RESEARCH INSTITUTE FOR RESIDENTIAL YOUTH CENTERS, NEW
HAVEN, CONE., ACCOMPANIED BY WESLEY FORBES
Dr. GOLDENBERG. I first would like to introduce Mr. Wesley Forbes,
who succeeded me as director of the first residential youth center. I
want to say that the program we developed was designed to serve those
high-risk youths who had either been called incorrigible or had been
or could have been screened out of the residential programs. These are,
for the most part, inner city kids from the urban centers.
The boys that we work with have all been or are, when we begin to
work with them, out of school and out of work, and 90 perceht have
had serious arrest records, many of them going back to the time they
were 12 years of age and younger. As individuals t.hey had spent an
average of almost 2 years of their lives in some form of reformatory,
mental institution, prison, or retardation institution. Two-thirds of all
of the boys we had worked with at one time or other had been called
either mentally retarded or suffering from some sort of emotional
disability.
Finally, all of the youngsters t.hat we worked with had been or were
not only out of work and out of school, but may also have been in the
most elementary job training program or opportunity program ad-
ministered through local community action agencies.
Thirty-nine percent came from broken homes, 59 percent from homes
where the head of the household was unemployed, 44 percent from
homes in which the parents had less than an eighth grade education.
I think I would like to also indicate how we began working with
these youngsters, how we got them. A questionnaire was sent out to
seven different social agencies in New Haven, including the police, the
welfare department, the community action agency, the employment
PAGENO="0177"
1609
center, and the neighborhood employment centers where we asked
these agencies to submit to us the names of "the 50 worst kids in New
Haven."
We had been working in the inner city for several years. If there is
one thing we found out about chronically disadvantaged families, it is
that they generally come in contact with more than one agency. So
we could be sure that the names submitted to us would have a great
deal of overlap.
The way we chose the original group of youngsters was then to `do
a simple ranking of how many times each kid's name appeared on each
list from every agency and finally we came up with a pool of 178 kids
and the 25 so-called worst kids in New Haven. Then we took into the
program the other 25, the next 25 were not taken into t'he program.
The morale that we have developed in New Haven, I think, I would
like to summarize very briefly. It is characterized by `being a neighbor-
hood base facility that occupies a house not dissimilar from other homes
that appear in the neighborhood. We do this because we think it is
important that kids, no matter how difficult their lives, do maintain
that degree of community continuity that would enable them th profit
from whatever experiences they can derive, but at the same time not
break the bonds that I think for most of our kids have been very im-
portant in their lives.
The setting of the residential youth center is also what we would
like to think of `as a community-responsive setting. It is not an institu-
tion. It is available to the entire community for its evening activities
as well as a facility for planning community events.
The residential youth center is staffed and run entirely by indigenous
nonprofessionals, people from the community, people from the ghettos,
people whose own lives are not too dissimilar from the kind of lives
the kids are leading when they come into the center.
We try to select these people along certain criteria, but `by and large
we look for people who h'ave lived through ghetto life without becom-
ing either permanently in~bedded or the kind of people `who the kids
would interpret as no longer representative of the people in the
neighborhood.
It is a self-help program in the sense that we think it is terribly
important for the kid to have `a direct input into the setting, not only
in terms of them paying rent, which they do-30 percent of their
weekly income, not to exceed $15-~but also in terms of having the ki'ds
participate in the development, implementation and actual running of
the center so that the kids have to assume responsibility in the center,
not too dissimilar of `the kind of responsibilities they would have to
assume once they leave the center.
The residential youth center, in addition to working with the young-
sters, was mandated `also to work with their families. The attemp't
being made either to "reconstitute" the families so that the kid could
go `back home to live or at least `to help the family itself get involved in
j~b training, job opportunity.
I `think the only thing I woul'd `like to `add to that is in a'ddition to
having developed what we think of a helpful and appropriate training
technique, `the center itself is also used as `a `facility whereby people'
going into the human service professions can have `a direct experience
working with the problems presented by chronically disadvantaged
youth and their families.
27-754-69--pt. 3-12
PAGENO="0178"
1610
I don't know if it would be appropriate at this time to share with you
some of the results of the project. Perhaps you would rather hold it.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead and make any statement you want to.
Dr. GOLDENBERG. As an E&D project., the residential youth center
was fundamentally for experimental and demonstration purposes,
which meant. that research was an integral part of the project from
the beginning.
The first. 25 kids that we worked with were compared with the 23
kids who had very similar backgrounds and problems, who we didn't
work with in tha:t first year. We did a number of different kinds of
evaluations, attitudinal as well as behavioral. I would like to cite some
of the behavioral results.
Insofar as work attendance goes, when the youth first go into the
center they were attending work 33 percent of the time. The other kids
who didn't attend the ceiiter were attending work 60 percent of the
time.
Nine months later when they were retested, the boys in the center
were attending work 93 percent of the time and a percentage increase
of 40 percent; the kids who had not benefited from the center `had
decreased 10 percent in their work attendance. In the 9-month period
of time from the beginning to retesting those youth who were served
by the center increased their income 8.4 percent, those youth who were
not involved in the center decreased their income 28.6 percent.
In the 6-month period of time before the residential program began,
those youth who were going to come into the center had an average
of 1.87 arrests per youngster, whereas those who `were not to come
into the center had an arrest average of 1.70.
Six months later the boys who came into the center had decreased
by 49 percent their involvement with the law, those who didn't come
into the center had increased by 2.2 percent their involvement with the
law, this being reflected in the number of days spent in the jail.
The residential youth center group had gone down 54 percent in
terms of their time spent in jail, those youngsters who were not in the
program increased by 84 percent of the amount of time they did spend
in jail.
I think I best stop here and let you ask your questions.
Chairman PERKINS Go ahead, Mr. Steiger.
Mr. STEIGER. Dr. Goldenberg, as I understand the program, you have
been funded by the Department `of Labor. How long have you been
open?
Dr. G-OLDENBERG. We were funded in June of 1966. We opened in
September of 1966. We have been open about, I guess, 2 years and 7
months.
Mr. STEIGER. During that period of time, how many enrollees have
you had, total?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Approximately 187.
Mr. STEIGER. Your cost. per enrollee, as I recall, was $5,200 approxi-
mately?
Mr. FORBES. $5,700.
Mr. STEIGER. Aiid you provide in what you call your residential cen-
ter a residential program, that is, they would live on the premises?
Dr. GOLDENBERO. I could-I just say that I know, having listened
to what the concerns are of this committee in terms of costs, I think
the costs are very difficult to compute not only fOr ourselves, but for
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Job Corps or any residential facility. Apparently the $5,700 is a cost
per year per bed. That is, each bed would cost $5,700.
However, our program is the kind where we encourage the kid not
to stay a year. In other words, we hope that if we are successful, up-
wards of three youths will be using that one bed. So that $5,700 from
my point of view at least supports a bed which will be lived in, hope-
fully successfully, by three youth.
The other part of your question, it is a residential facility in the
sense that during the day we hope and expect that the kids will be out
of the house, either involved in employment, in school or in some job
training program.
In the evenings we run programs that are supportive of those in-
volvements, be it tutorial, be it sex education, athletics, music, wood-
working, carpentry, but the programs that we offer at the center are
offered at night and on weekends and those programs are opened not
only to the youth enrolled in the center, but to any and all community
people.
Mr. STEIGER. How do you define the purpose of the center.? What is
your focus and the thrust of what you propose, what you have done?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. I think we define the purpose as being to provide
the youth who have been chronically disadvantaged and who show the
effects of that disadvantage, with the kind of personal, with the kind of
group experience with someone who comes from their environment,
someone they can relate to in a very personal relationship,, the assump-
tion being `that through that kind of relationship and the community
support facilities available in and through the center that this will
help mobilize the youth and prepare him to benefit from whatever job
training or skill training opportunities that are available to him either
through the employment program or through the manpower program
in the city.
Mr. STEIGER. In other words, your program is one in which by uti-
lizing the resources of the community, you do not directly offer voca-
tional training, but rather, through the interdependence and relation-
ship among those disadvantaged and those who work with the
disadvantaged, you give to them'.an `attitudinal opportunity, if'that is
a correct way of saying that-and Tam not sure it is-which makes it
possible for them to receive skill training and some basic education
and some social training to go on and get the skill necessary to ,work
within the community in which they live? ~` . ` `
Dr. G0LDENBERG. That is absolutely true. I think it is very important
to use, mobilize, and. better coordinate existing community facilities
rather than for us to try to duplicate them at the center.
Mr. STEIGER. Yo'u have indicated that you have `a very `high-risk
population with which y'ou work, in~ fact, `a population which is not
eligible for Job Corps. " .
Dr. G0LDENBERG. I think they are eligible. My understai~ding is that
alniost every kid is eligible. However, the process `by which kids are
screened and `brought into and/or'rejected from Job Corps is such that
I think I `am making a fairly good assumption to say that most, if not
all, of our youth would not go to Job C'orps, might either not be ac-
cepted or it might not be appropriate for them.
Mr. STEIGER. In some cases, in other words, the arrest record would
be so extensive that the Job Corp's would shy away from ` accepting
them?
PAGENO="0180"
1612
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Yes; I think that would be correct.
Mr. STEIGER. Is it also correct to say that the experience you have
had in the 2 years and 7 months that you have operated your program
is that, in fact, there are those in the disadvantaged population who
can receive a benefit from a center located close to their own home,
which gives them freedom to return in fact, I would assume, to their
home environment, while getting the training and the social benefits
that accrue from the residential setting in which you offer this pro-
gram.
Is that also correct?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Yes. To finally answer your first question, I think
the screening and selection of the Economic Opportunity Act states
that before selecting an individual who has a history of serious and
violent behavior, he would have to be screened separately.
Mr. SmIGr~i~. That is from the Economic Opportunity Act.
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Yes.
Mr. STEIGER. That description of the limitations on Job Corps en-
rollees, so that your population, in fact, has an even higher risk po-
tential than many Job Corps enrollees?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. I think so.
Chairman PERKINS. I was going to say to my good friend that you
have needled me time and time again about leading questions. I think
you are the past master.
Go ahead.
Mr. STEIGER. Is it also accurate to say in terms of the kind of pro-
gram you offer that when you talk of your cost of $5,700 per bed, how
does this relate, if you can do that for me, with the cost per enrollee
per year concept that we have used in judging costs for Job Corps.
Is that comparable?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. I really don't feel I could answer that question. I
am not in Job Corps. I really don't know how Job Corps exactly figures
their costs.
I know there are a variety of different ways. I don't feel qualified
to answer that.
Mr. STEIGEB. Of the 187 enrollees that you have serviced, have there
been any of those who have been in Job Corps and have come back
to you?
Dr. Goi~nEN1rnI~G. Yes.
Mr. S~rsIGEB. How many!
Dr. GOLDENBERG. I would say approximately 15 or 20.
Mr. STEIGER. Who have entered Job Corps and left and came back,
but then enrolled in your own program?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Yes.
Mr. STEIGER. Do you defiuie a placement as one who graduates from
your center and is placed in a job? What kind of an analysis do you
do on that?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. We define placement in terms of someone who has
been in the center for any period of time, one that hopefully sets the
limits for which I have not had the time to go into, but someone who
graduates from the center is employed in a full-time job of his choos-
ing, a job that he feels has a future to it, and a youngster who is either
stabilized on his own in his own apartment or back home living with
his parents.
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After a youngster leaves the center, there is a 6-month period of time
during which there is intensive continued work with the youngster by
his work or from the youth center. So that when `a youngster leaves the
center, he leaves us physically. The center is available to him as long
as he wants it, for weekend or evening activities or counseling or re-
turn for a couple of days.
Mr. STErnER. In other words, what you have developed here is a
program which enables the young man involved to maintain a close
relationship with the center in which he received the kind of benefit
that you have given to him, and you undertake a program of very
close contact with him for that 6-month period of time.
You also then, I assume, work with the employment service, for
example, in the placement of a man. What did you want to indicate in
terms of the choice that the young man himself makes in terms of the
kinds of job he might be interested in?
Mr. Foi~ims. What we do, basically, is once the boy is enrolled in a
program, if he comes in, he is placed at a level wherever he might be at
that particular time. If it calls for Neighborhood Youth Corps or if it
calls for on-the-job training or a direct placement, depending on where
the level of that individual is at that point.
This is basically between his counselor and of his own choosing to
place him in a position where he can be successful.
Mr. STEIGER. What kind of a record do you have with those who,
let's say, have finished their relationship with the center in the early
stages? Have you kept any kind of a record of the 187, let's say-how
many did you have from September 1966 to September 1967, and then
what kind of a record do you have since that with those people?
Dr. GOLDENBERO. We `are doing a 3-year followup `of every youngster
served by the center regardless of how much time he spent. What we
did find was that the average for the first year is 5.2 months, for the
second year, 4.2 months.
For those who stayed on for the first year, most of the youngsters
were gone by the time the first year ended, and a couple of those
youngsters were hired on to the staff of the residential youth center.
For the others, we maintain a contact that let's us know what the kid's
are doing and where they are doing it.
`\Vhat I wanted to indicate before in addition to what Wes said is
that when a youngster comes into the center, we ask him, "How long
are you going to be in the center?" We have the youngster set what for
him appears to be a reasonable goal for himself in terms of length of
stay.
We know that is going to change either up or down, but we feel it is
terribly important for a youngster from the very beginning to commit
himself and to assume direct responsibility for his future so that no
matter how long he stays, it can never be interpreted by an imposition
by somebody else, a decision over which he had no part.
`Mr. STErnER. But you find that you can within thi's `concept maintain
them for this 4.2 months and successfully track them with a record `of
placement in a meaningful j'ob. Is that correct?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Yes.
Mr. STEIGER. What is the capacity of the center?
Dr. GOLDENBERO. The center can hold up to 25 youth at any one given
time. In addition, it has three live-in counselors, a `director, three what
we call residential youth center workers, and a cook and a secretary.
PAGENO="0182"
1614
But in addition to the youth who live there, there are these three
live-in counselors who live there. This is one of the unique things that
maybe I can take a second on.
One of the things that we are doing at the residential center that
we have done since the beginning is we have tried to develop a setting
where everybody in the center. no matter what his title, whether he is
a director or cook, whether he is called the residential youth center
worker or a live-in counselor, where everybody shares very directly
in assuming the responsibilities of the center, so that everybody on the
staff, the director as well as the cook, has a caseload.
Everybody on the staff is expected to live in to relieve the live-in
counselors. Everybody on the staff is expected to work with families
and to run a program.
So the attempt is being made at this center to avoid overspecializa-
tion of functions under the assmnpt.ion that when people, the entire
staff are engaged in a variety of different roles and a variety of dif-
ferent functions, the. staff is going to have a higher morale and the
kids are going to get better service.
Mr. STEIGER. I appreciate your conthig today. I think your testimony
has been very helpful to us as we consider the variOus kinds of alterna-
tives tha.t exist for servicing the kind of young men that you service.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. If I understand you, you have stated that it
costs $5,700 per enrollee~
Mr. FORBES. Per bed.
Chairman PERKINS. Has that been the average for the two and a.
half years that you have been operating in this institution?
Mr. FORBES. ~o; for the first year, 25 beds in the center comes to an
average of $5~700.
Chairman PERKINS. In the first year, 25 beds averaged $5,700.
Mr. FORBES. Yes.
Chairman PERKINS. What did' the last year and a half average that
you have been operating the center?
Mr. FORBES. The last year for 25 beds averaged $5,000.
Chairman PERKINS. Last year the 25 beds averaged $5,000.
Mr. FORBES. Yes.
Chairman PERKINS. Are you `speaking about enrollee a year? Or the
length of time he staved in the center per enrollee bed?
Dr. G-OLDENBERG. Again, here we get. into the hassle of what. it means.
It costs per bed per 12 months approximately now $5,000 to hold a bed.
During the course of that year, upward of three youths will use that
bed. So the bed itself. I think, conies to a cost of $3,083.13.
The nunTher of youth who will use that bed is almost three, so the
amount of money that is expended for each kid is $1,008.
Chairman PERKINS. How many have you had in the New Haven
Center in the last 21/2 years?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Approximately 187.
Chairman PERKINS. You know whether it `has been 187 or 177. don't
you? Which has it been?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. I would say 187, `but since we have left there, we
may have a. new kid.
Chairman PERKINS. Two and a half years. `What is the total capacity
of this center?
PAGENO="0183"
1615
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Twenty-five at any one time.
Chairman PERKINS. `So what has been the `dropout rate there?
Dr. G0LDENBERG. What do you mean by the "dropout rate"?
Chairman PERKINS. After you take in 25, if that is the capacity at
any one time, do they stay `there 3 months, or do some of them leave the
next day?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. You can only talk about a dropout rate if you say
a youngster commits himself to a program for a `certain period of
time. The goal at the residential youth center is not to commit himself
for a year's period of time or to commit himself for as long as he needs
a center.
So the dropout rate is proba'bly 1 to `2 percent, `because maybe `a couple
of kids came during the trial week where they can make up `their `mind
to s'tay `there or not and then left the center.
Chairman PERKINS. How many would `come for a `week, less than 2
weeks, `and made up their mind that they were dissatisfied and `left for
home since you started there?
`Dr. GOLDENBERG. I would say less than 2 percent, m'aybe three kids.
`Chairman PERKINS. Are these elementary or `secondary students
that come there?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. They are youth between `the ages of 16 and 21.
Chairman PERKINS. W'hat is the average `education that `they have
when they come there?
Dr. `GOLDENBERG. The median educational level is 9.5 grades. The
reading level is 5.0.
Mr. STEIGER. Would t'he chairman yield?
`Chairman PERKINS. Yes, briefly.
Mr. STEIGER. You have been there 2 years and 7 months. Have you
had any of your residents who have stayed, let's `say, a year, a year and
a half?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Yes, we have had about five or six kids who have
stayed a year or a year and a half. You see what has happened, and I
think this is important, is that there has been a radical change in the
last year and a half of the center.
We have found that over half of our youngsters have elected to re-
turn to school during the period of time that they were at the resi-
dential youth center. Under those conditions we feel that it is only
reasonable for us to make a commitment to the youngster that he can
continue to live at the residential youth center so long as it takes him
to finish school.
Chairman PERKINS. Let's go ahead here.
How much time do your youngsters spend in your residential center
and how much time and where do they a'ttend school `and what type
of training do you give `them? How much time do they spend in your
center?
Mr. FORBES. The first year, on an average, is 5.2 months. The second
year it was 4.2. The school that they attended was an inner-city school.
Chairman PERKINS. They attend the regular city school system?
Mr. FORBES. Yes, and they were `also participating in the work-study
program in the school system.
`Chairman PERKINS. This $5,700 does not include the funds that they
get from the work-study program, does it?
Mr. FORBES. No, it does not.
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Chairman PERKINS. For the. subsidizing of the salaries, and so forth,
do you have a record as to what that amounts to?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. It varies from youngster to youngster. A lot of our
youngsters are full-time employees in the j~b market and are getting
no subsistence level income from anybody. Some of the youngsters are
in work-study programs in school where they get an average of $18 a
week. Some are at NYC and some are in training programs.
Chairman PERKINS. You have no idea, then, as to the amount of
funds that the Government subsidizes from the various governmental
programs, NDTA, NYC. You don't have any record of that money
spent, is that correct?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Yes.
Cha.irman PERKINS. You don't know whether this would amount to
additional $1,700 or $2,000 or not, do you?
Mr. FORBES. I am pretty sure that it won't, but I am not sure.
Chairman PERKINS. What about the medical facilities of these
youngsters? Do you give them any medical assistance there?
Mr. FORBES. We only have one item in our budget categories for
medicals, which cover physical examination when the boy enters the
youth center.
Chairman PERKINS. You only have one item, to give him a physical
examination. When he gets his physical examination and needs some
remedial medical services, who pays that bill?
Mr. FORBES. Nine out. of 10 times most of our enrollees, come under
the criteria of the State welfare, which calls for title XIX. That covers
all medical and dental costs.
Chairman PERKINS. There are about 20 States in the Nation that are
not able to put up the matching funds and take advantage of the title
XIX of the Social Security Act. So you have no idea what the medical
expenses of each of these enrollees, 187 enrollees, in the past 21/2 years
amounts to?
Mr. FORBES. No.
Chairman PERKINS. You don't have any idea as to the dental cost
of the 187 enrollees in the last 21/2 years?
Mr. FORBES. No.
Chairman PERKINS. Or the educational costs, you don't have any
idea as to wha.t that amounts to?
Mr. FORBES. No.
Chairman PERKINS. You don't have any idea as to the other training
costs?
Mr. FORBES. No, I don't.
Chairman PERKINS. But the only thing you know is the cost in your
institution runs about $5,700 a year.
Mr. FORBES. There is one aspect that I think should be taken into
consideration, is that we not only work with the youth in the center-
Chairman PERKINS. I know, but what do you give them? They take
their schooling in the regular public school systems in the city. Do you
have any prevocational training or something there that you give them
be.fore they go to school in the morning or after they come in from
school in the afternoon?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. The youth center was funded as a support service
to an existing manpower training, and. vocational and educational
training programs in the community. Consequently, we don't run any
PAGENO="0185"
1617
particular separate programs of our own for education, manpower
training or skill training.
What we offer the kids at night and on weekends are supplementary
programs that are developed out of the center that we hope will help
them in whatever training or educational programs they might be
involved in.
Chairman PERKINS. What are some of the supplementary programs
that you offer them on the weekends?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. The programs that we offer are, we have programs
running at night and on weeks in sex education, in tutoring, to help
them in their classroom work-athletics, music, carpentry, house coun-
sel and parent groups.
Chairman PERKINS. How many of these children go home on week-
ends?
Dr. G0LDENBERG. It varies from weekend to weekend.
Chairman PERKINS. What would you say?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. I would say maybe a quarter go home every week-
end.
Chairman PERKINS. About 25 percent go home every weekend.
On the supplemental services, who provides the funds, for instance,
for counseling services?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Counseling is done by the staff.
Chairman PERKINS. The carpentry and the other programs?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. It i~ all run by the staff.
Chairman PERKINS. AU of them by your own staff?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. That is correct.
Mr. FORBES. Each staff member is responsible for a night program.
Chairman PERKINS. Do you have any other services that we have
omitted from our discussion that are provided by either private or
public agencies that these youngsters receive there at the center?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. If a youngster needs a particular diagnostic test,
if a youngster needs any particular individual therapy or treatment for
emotional prdblems, that is provided by Yale University through a sub-
contract. That covers the research as well as any specialized services.
Chairman PERKINS. Do you know what that figure runs `to?
Dr. G0LDENBERG. In the first year I think it ran $10,000 for the year.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Ford?
Mr. FORD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to understand a little more about t.he nature of the New
Haven program in its totality. Was New Haven `the first community
in the country that had a program comparable to \~hat we now have
under the poverty program, as a result of the Ford Foundation grant?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. I think so.
Mr. FORD. That has `been an ongoing program for a number of
years.
Dr. GOLDENBERG. That's right.
Mr. FORD. That preceded by some time the opening of `the center that
you have been describing?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Yes.
Mr. FORD. I am also informed that that program was developed by
Mitchel Svirdorf, who is well known for the emphasis that `he placed
on saturation of job training programs, and that as a result `the New
Haven program probably was somewhat unique in the country, at least
PAGENO="0186"
1618
for a period of years, in terms of the availability of the several `kinds
of job training opportunities that can be `found in one program.
Dr. GOLDEXBERG. I think that was probably very, very true when
we started in 1966. I don't know how true it is `today. My understand-
ing is that there are community action agencies in most of the urban
centers and concentrated employment programs `being `developed.
Mr. FORD. But the programs were there and were in operation
before your center was established?
Dr. GOLDEXBERG. That's right.
Mr. FORD. As I understand your responses to the questions by `the
chairman, what you really `provide basically is a residential facility
that would have no reason for being `but for the existence of the man-
power training programs.
So that this $5,700 figure represents what we might get if we were,
as we are, trying to get some comparison with the Jo'b Corps approach,
basically the barracks part of that operation.
Dr. GOLDENBERG. That's right.
Mr. FORD. I assume you are taking into consideration the type of
youngster being worked with. I think it is quite different from Job
Corps as it is constituted.
The kind `of people you have are not basically the same kind of
people we are dealing with in Job Corps?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. No. That is the point. I tried to make earlier.
Mr. FORD. I must be confused. I had `the impression when the Secre-
tary of Labor testified, and there was mention of your center made by
members of his staff, that what. they had in mind as an alternative to
the assignment of the people we are now taking in Job Corps was a
center such as your own.
Dr. GOLDENBERG. I don't know what the Secretary of Labor said,
but I don't think it is an alternative to; that is, to replace what exists.
I think for certain kinds of kids, the inner city small residential
facility is the most appropriate one, for kids, 90 percent of who'm `have
had serious and long-term involvements with the law, for felonies
going back to the age ,of 12. These youngsters generally don't go to
Job Corps, and according to the screening processes, probably won't
go to Job Corps.
So I don't know what the Secretary said. My own point of view is
that the existing Job Corps facilities are probably most appropriate
for certain kinds of youngsters, for the kinds of kinds that we work
with. I don't think it is the most appropriate one either because they
couldn't or shouldn't get in because of their being screened out through
the stipulations of screening or because these are youth who we think
have a strong tie to the community and that tie should not be broken.
Mr. FoRD. Do you know how many centers like your own we have
going in the country at the present time?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. I only know that where we have developed the one
for the boys. We just developed one for girls, 16 or 21, with a day care
center component `tied into it. I know there is a small center in Maine.
Mr. FORD. Smaller than yours?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. I think it holds 15 of 16 youths. We hold 25. I think
they are comparable in size.
Mr. FORD. You would hold 25, but according to the report that was
rendered for fisca.l year 1968, you have never reached that figure for
any sustained period of time.
PAGENO="0187"
1619
Dr. GOLDENBERG. lit varies because kids go after 3 months and are
replaced by another kid.
Mr. FORD. You average some place around a 19-person capacity.
Dr. `GOLDENBERG. Twenty-two kids and three staff members.
Mr. FORD. That is an increase of fiscal year 1968?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Yes.
Mr. FORD. You have about 17 or 18 staff people?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. No. We have a director, three residential youth
center workers, three `live-in counselors, and `a cook, which is eight.
Those are the full-time service staff. We also have a secretary and a
part-time secretary.
Mr. FORD. You have 11 full-time and six part-time staff altogether.
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Again, the part-time issue, I train, for example,
clinical psychology students from Yale at the center. They are there
to get training and to give service. But they don't get paid.
On the other hand, we do pay people from the community to come
in part time to hel'p run some of the evening programs.
Mr. FORD. If we were to try to expand the center that you have to its
optimum capacity, how big do you think we could make it?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. I don't know how big you could make it.
Mr. FORD. I mean have it function the way it is functioning now?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Successfully I don't think it should ever go beyond
25. nor for these kids.
Mr. FORD. Then I take it that you don't see this as a potential reposi-
tory for the 14,500 people now in Job Corps who won't be there after
June?
Dr. G-OLDENBERG. I don't know what statements preceded us.
Mr. FORD. I will state that 16,400 positions, according to the figures
that were developed here when the Labor Department testified, will
be eliminated in June. This committee has been given the impression
that the kind of center that you are talking about would be expanded
in some fashion across the country so that we would have a place for
these people to go.
Is there any possibility that you could between now and June, if we
gave you the funds to' do so, get your capacity up to 100?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Absolutely not. I personally wouldn't want to be
involved in any project that would get our capacity up to 100. I don't
know the different kinds of inner city centers that were being talked
about or that you got your impression about. But I think that these
centers should not be larger than 25.
Chairman PERKINS. You are telling the `committee that it would be
bad in your judgment to exceed the 25 level that you presently `have?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Certainly to the 100 it would be bad; yes.
Mr. FORD. During your `discussion with the chairman, you were
talking about the level of medical attention available. I understood
von to say that that is limited to a general physical examination so far
as the cost to us reflected in your `$5,700 figure. I take it that if there is
any specialized diagnosis necessary. the. trainee would be then referred
to some other social agency and the service paid for in some other
fashion.
Just in the past couple of days. I had occasiom while we were eon-
sidering the women's center at Marquette, Mich., to `look at the medical
figures and `di'scovered that last year `for a `population that stayed
PAGENO="0188"
1620
somewhere between 200 and 250 young women, the cost to us of reme-
dial medical attention was $42,500 plus. This indicates for the kind of
people we are talking about, other agencies are picking up a very sub-
stantial part of the cost of dealing with people with these problems.
You `have never made any survey to determine what kind of support
in dollar value you get from these other agencies for medical attention,
for example?
Dr. G0LDENBERG. No; but I think that you could get that inforina-
tion, because as was mentioned, most of our kids who need extensive
medical work-
Mr. FORD. Don't you have to justify this to any agency? Don't the
agencies who deal with you place any limitation on the comn'iitn'ient
that they are willing to make to you in the `way of medical support?
Dr. GOLDENBEEG. Title XIX, as I understand it, covers youth from
deprived `backgrounds upward to certain amounts of money.
Mr. Foi~. Most of this comes from title XIX funds.
Mr. FORBES. Yes. Most of the youth that enter the center already
have title XIX before they enter.
Mr. FORD. So that in those States where title XIX didn~t exist, we
would have to find some other alternative, if we were `to `consider the
medical problems `to be the legitimate concern of a training program
of this kind.
You mentioned training of staff for your center. How long does it
take to train somebody to serve as staff in your center? If we started
out to open these centers across the country, what. would we be looking
toward in terms of a training period to get a center ready for a pro-
ductive program?
Dr. GOLDEXBERG. I would say no less than 9 weeks, probably 3 to 6
months, unless you want to run the risk of not penetrating the com-
munity in the way that would enable the community to support the
center, of not developing the training staff to work with inner city kids.
Mr. FORD. Have you found the kind of people that you need for this
staffing readily available in New Haven?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Yes.
Mr. FORD. Is any of that attributable to the near proximity of other
institutions that you might not find in other places?
You were talking about the students, for example. Your proximity
to the school that they are attending is what makes them available?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Yes. And I think that also answers partly your
medical question. As I understand it, in centers that are removed from
large populations, you have to provide all services on the facility
itself. When you develop a center in a neighborhood where there is
ready access to medical resources, those resources are generally avail-
able, I guess, at a lower price.
You don't have to develop them on your own.
Mr. Fo~n. I have just one final question, Mr. Chairman.
With respect to the sex of the population that you have, I got the
impression that what you have said that heretofore you have been
limited to only boys and that you are now undertaking the inclusion
of girls in the program.
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Not in this facility.
Mr. FORD. It won't be a coeducational facility?
PAGENO="0189"
1621
Dr. GOLDENBERG. No; the girls' facility is approximately 5 blocks
away.
Mr. Foiu. how big will that be?
Dr. G0LDENBERG. That will be for about 15 or 16 girls. It will also
have a day care center as part of a training component that will be
attached to it.
Mr. Foiin. Who financed the day care center?
Dr. GOLDENBERO. The project originally was financed by the Depart-
merit of Labor.
Mr. FORD. It is now in existence?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Yes. It is just getting off the ground.
Mr. FORD. Thank you very inu~h.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Buckley?
Mr. BTJCKLEY. When the Secretary of Labor testified before the com-
mittee last week, he indicated that part of the Labor Department's
proposal would include 30 new inner city or near city residential man-
power center5.
Do you think that he had your program in mind when he said that?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. I have no idea what he had in mind. I wasn't there.
Mr. BIJOKLEY. Do you regard your center or your program as a skill
training operation?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. No.
Mr. BuCKLEY. Thank you.
Chairman PERKINS. Let me inquire just a few moments, and I am
delighted you came today. You have given us some valuable
viewpoints.
What is the academic achievement level of these boys from the stand-
point of reading and mathematics, when they come, when they leave
your center? Do you have any views on that?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. When they came into the center, our youth were
reading on a 5.0 level. We have not kept the same kind of statistics on
reading and math level as other residential programs. I can tell you
this: During the first and second year of the existence of the youth
center, 10 of its youth returned to high school after having been out
of school for at least 1 and up to 3 years.
During the next semester, they got grades higher than the average
New Haven High School student. These are kids who had been thrown
out of school.
Chairman PERKINS. Most all of these kids, then, were high school
students?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. At one time, when they came to us they were out
of high school.
Chairman PERKINS. But they had been dropouts from high school.
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Yes.
Chairman PERKINS. You don't take in there any dropouts from the
fifth grade or sixth grade or seventh grade?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. No.
Chairman PERKINS. But all of your enrollees are dropouts from high
school, and who sets the admittance standard, the admission require-
ments and what are some of the other admission requirements for tak-
ing the child into the center?
* Dr. GOLDENBERG. We will take the kid into the center on the basis of
need. Need is determined by what the kid has been doing.
PAGENO="0190"
1622
Chairman PERKINS. Why doift you take a kid in the center when he
has dropped out when he was in the third or fourth grade, even though
he is 17 or 18 years of age?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. We have.
Mr. FORBES. We have on occasion.
Chairman PERKINS. How many instances of that type have you in
your center? I understand you to say all of your boys that were en-
rolled were dropouts from high school at one time or another.
Mr. FORBES. Meaning they were dropouts to clarify it, from school,
the ones who returned to high school were boys who had been in high
school. We have had students who dropped out before high school and
were in other programs that have entered the youth center.
Chairman Pmi~ixs. But a very limited number that have dropped
out before they entered high school that were admitted to your place?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. I don't think it has been that limited. We have had
a number of kids who dropped out of school before they ever got to
high school.
Chairman PERKINS. I want to know how many leave the first and
second months and what is the average stay? We discussed this briefly
a few moments ago. But let's get it clarified for the record.
Dr. GOLDENBERO. During the first year, the average length of stay
was 5.2 months. During the next 18 months the average length of stay
was 4.2 months. I don~t. know what percentage left the center within
1 month or 2.
Chairman PERKINS. Don't you have records on that, or after they
have been there 1 or 2 weeks?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. I tried to tell you, and I will repeat it, the number
*of youth who have left inside of 2 weeks has been less than 2 percent.
Chairman PERKINS. Let's get up to the 1 month. What percentage
would you say left the first month?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. I have no idea, because then a youth sets his own
time for leaving.
Chuirman PERKINS. What percentage leaves the second month?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. I have no idea. We can get that data for you.
Chairman PERKINS. I would like to have that data.
(Information follows:)
TRAINING AND RESEARCH INSTITUTE FOR
RESIDENTIAL YOUTH CENTERS, INC.,
New Haven, Conn., May 28, 1969.
Chief Clerk and Senior Specialist,
Honse of Representatives Committee on Education and Labor,
Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, D.C.
DEAR Mn. MCCORD: Thank you for your letter of May 21, 1969. I am enclosing
in this reply the material requested by Chairman Perkins. Before doing so, how-
ever, let me make clear once again that the Residential Youth Center model that
I described to Congressman Perkins and the other members of the Committee on
Education and Labor differs significantly from the Job Corps model which
served as the basis for the questions and issues raised by members of the Com-
mittee. More precisely, and with specific reference to the material requested of
me, let me reiterate the following points:
1. Unlike the Job Corps, an enrollee in the Residential Youth Center does not,
upon entry, commit himself to staying for any specified amount of time.
In other words, youth do not have to enter the Residential Youth Center
program with the understanding that they will remain for a year or any other
programmatically-determined period of time.
PAGENO="0191"
1623
2. Given the above, any youth is free to leave the Youth Center at that point
in `time at which he and his worker feel he is ready to try to "make it" on his
own. All that is required of an in~coming resident is that he take one week to
familiarize himself with the program so that his decision to stay or leave be
predicated on direct experience rather than a formal contract. Under these con-
ditions, youth's who leave in two months or less may be leaving not only because
they do not want the `program but `also because they may feel that they have
derived whatever benefits they wanted to derive within that period of time.
3. For purposes of research and fo'l'low~up the Residential Youth `Center views
all residents, independent of their length of s'tay, as `individual's to be included in
statistical an'd foll'ewup `research. Whether or not this procedure is similarly
followed by the Job Co'rps is a question `about which I have no specific
information.
`At the presen't time our review of `the data indicates that 196 youth have partic-
ipated as residents `in the Residential Youth Center. Of `these 196, 25 left before
the completion `of two `months of residen'cy. In other words, the percentage of
youths `that have `left within two `months of time is 12.7%.
Of `these 25 youth, 9 (or .04%) left within the first month of `time. The remain-
ing 16 (or .08%) left prior to the completion of two month's of `residency.
I hope you find t'h'is `da'ta helpful and `that it fulfills `the request made by
Chairman Perkins. I can `only repeat, however, `the point I tried to m'ake over
an'd over again when I appeared before `the Committee on Education and Labor;
namely, that the expectation's of residency at the Residential Youth Center, par-
ticularly `because the Cente'r serves the highest-risk youth, are different than
those existing in the Job Corps.
Sincerely yours,
I. IRA GOLDENBERG, Ph.D.,
Ewecutive Director.
`Chairman PERKINS. What is the placement. history of y'our resi-
`dential center? D'o you place `them `all in private employment or does it
`have any placement history? Do you find jobs `for `these kids?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Yes, we help find jobs for them in conjunction wi'th
the vocational placement services of the Community Action Agency.
`Chairman PERKINS. What `is that, to what percent are placed?
Mr. FORBES. When a boy enters the center, we have 100 percent place-
ment because this is a self-help volunteer `program in which the boy
has to `basically contribute part of his room and `board and which is
base'd on one-third of his income, not to exceed $15 a week.
Ohairman PERKINS. `Do you count a's `a placement or an individual a
`boy `that transfers to another subsid'ized training or employment pro-
gram? D'o you count tha't `as a placement?
Mr. FORBES. No. When a boy comes in the program and `he is already
placed in a program, we `don't count that as a placement.
*Chairman PERKINS. But if I understand you correctly, the average
cost per enrollee is $5,700. That `does not `inclu'de any of the subsi'dized
educational programs or any of the education, is that correct?
`Mr. FORBES. Tha't is `correct.
Chairman PERKINS. And the youngster goes to the public schools
to obtain his education, is that correct?
Mr. FORBES. That's right.
Chairman PERKINS. And the medical facilities you only give one
physical examination and if he needs medical attention, his parents
either provide it or he has to go to a clinic or some charitable institu-
tion to get it, is that correct?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Yes, he will pay for it himself.
Chairman PERKINS. Does that also hold true to the dental treatment,
that if a youngster needs his teeth fixed or remedial attention, does he
PAGENO="0192"
1624
have to do that on his own or go to some charitable institution or to
some clinic, if he can find one? Am I correct?
Dr. G0LDENBERG. Yes.
Chairman PERKINS. AU other subsidized services are borne by some-
body else, such as the work-study program, the NYC program-those
are all paid for by the Government in addition to the $5,700, is that.
correct?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Yes.
Chairman PERKINS. And the $5,700 does not include OJT or the
MDTA programs or any other training costs, is that correct?
Dr. G0LDENBERG. That's right. I am not clear what point you are
trying to make.
Chairman PERKINS. I am .t.r~ing to show that this $ 5,700 is just.
approximately one-half of the cost, which is about the way I under-
stand it for keeping a youngster in your residential center. But my
question was that the $5,700 does not include the on-the-job training
or does not include the MDTA costs or a.ny other training costs, is
that correct?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Yes, I would like to say-and I will repeat it, this
resident.ia.l youth center is a support service t.o help youth in existing
training programs.
Chairman PERKINS. It is a supportive service to the regular training
program that he gets elsewhere ?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. That's right..
Chairma.n PERKINS. Your cost is a. limited, part of this comprehen-
sive child development program, as I take it. Am I correct in that, a
limited part of it, at least?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. Yes. We provide residence and service to the young-
sters above a.nd beyond the particular training or educational pro-
grams that are available to them and that they are in the community.
Chairman PERKINS. And the supportive services, of course, includes
wholesome athletics and physical fitness and things of that type
courses?
Dr. GOLDENBERG. I think there are other things that are more whole-
some.
Chairman PERKINS. That is what I am trying t.o get at, is supportlve
services.
Dr. GOLDENBERG. The supportive service is what makes an alienated,
angry kid, the kind of kid who tears up a city, not do so. That is the
supportive service.
Chairman PERKINS. We want t.o try to find the best ways we can do
something for these kids. Certainly they need supportive services. I
am trying to find out how extensive these services are for all-around
child development and t.raining, to prepare this youngster for a
livelihood.
I know many of them are problem children. Are there any further
questions?
Mr. Ford, go ahead.
Mr. FORD. I should just like to make clear to Mr. Goldenberg that I
am impressed by everything I have heard about this center as being a
success and something that we on this committee ought to be support-
ing in every way that we can. I hope that none of the questions that
ha-e `been directed at you would indicate that there is antipathy on our
part in that regard or animosity, for that matter.
PAGENO="0193"
1625
Our concern is that we have a clear-cut understanding about what
the alternatives might be to switching people around in these programs.
It appears to me from what you have said and from quick examina-
tion of the reports that were made available to us before that this is a
very desirable type of program that could be~ destroyed if we tried to
load it down with different kinds of clients, if that is the way to refer
to them, and if we tried to, simply by expanding its size, accommodate
large nun~bers of people, because in doin.g so we might change the
thrust of what you are doing.
We might change the direction and quite clearly in a larger scale we
couldn't do what you are doing for the kind of people that you are
dealing with.
In short, it appears to be unrealistic to look at this kin:d of center as
you have already indicated as a si~bstitute for a program such as the
Conservation Corps, the Job Corps, urban centers, and that in our
deliberations here on the committee faced with an alternative to the
present system, we had better look elsewhere and not be trying to bur-
den your type of program or tear it apart in order to accommodate the
problems of some other program.
I want to thank you for your candid testimony here today and
salute you for a fine job being done up there. We don't dislike Labor
Department programs, although it is easy around here these days to
get that impression. We are just trying to find out what in the world
those people had in mind over there when they made the decision that
was made a short time ago.
Dr. GOLDENBERG. My concern is with kids. I am not involved nor
do I want to be involved in the politics of shifting things one way or
the other. What concerns me is that distinctions have not been made
here between the kinds of kids that we are working with and the kinds
of concerns that the committee legitimately has about the Job Corps
in general.
I want to state my position very clearly. I don't think our program
is a substitute for conservation centers. I don't think they tare substi-
tutes for larger urban centers. And I `don't think they are alternatives
to, either take it or take this or there is nothing available, for other
existing residential programs.
Our program serves what I think `are the hardest of the hard-core
kinds. I think you are absolutely right to expand this program or to
start it too quickly would be to destroy it, and at the same time destroy
the youth involved.
I can understand the concerns of the committee. I can understand
the concerns of the chairman, but 1 don't think it is appropriate when
discussing this program to compare it with Job Corps programs in the
sense that it does not deal with the same kind of kid, it does not have
the same kind of model and is probably most appropriate for the kind
of kids we work with.
I guess the only other thing I would like tO say is I appreciate your
concerns. it is your "bag." It is not mine. My "bag" is kids. That is
what I am out here to protect.
You are right, to turn this 25-nTan center into a 100-man center, to
accommodate it to problems and pressures that have nothing to do
with the kinds of services these kids want and get would be to destroy
the program and to destroy the kid.
27-754-69-pt. 3-l3
PAGENO="0194"
1626
That is something we would all have to bear responsibility for.
Chairman PEmuNs. Let me compliment you for a forthright state-
ment and state that you have been most helpful to the committee. I
appreciate your coming down here.
Thank you very much.
Come around, Mrs. Richard Miller from Carson City, Nev. We
would be delighted to hear from you concerning the Clear Creek Job
Corps `Center. As many of you `ladies that want to come aroun'd and
want to make statements, come around and we will let all of you
identify yourselves one at a time.
STATEMENTS OP MRS. RI(IEARD MILLER, CARSON CITY, NEV., AND
MRS. ROBERT KLEI1~, PRESIDENT, LEAGTTE OP WOMEN VOTERS
OP ~W JERSEY
`Chairman PERKINS. Let's take the Clear Creek Job Corps Center.
We will hear from you first, Mrs. Miller.
Mrs. MILLER. Thank you, Mr. `Chairman. I am Mrs. Richard Miller,
from Carson City, Nev., a member of the League of Women Voters.
We appreciate this opportunity to return this afternoon `and as you
know, `those of us who are representing particular areas where Job
Corps are being cut out did not bring formal testimony with us.
But we do appreciate the opportunity to speak.
Chairman PERKINS. Tell us how your center i's accepted in your com-
munity and w'hether it is serving a good purpose and whether you have
any other faci'lities.
`Mrs. MILLER. Our facility is 9 minutes away from Carson City,
Key., the capital. It serves 200 plus dropouts from largely the South-
east part of the United States, some from California, and from other
urban centers.
It has `been in effect for 31/2 years and the `league has watched it care-
fully for that time and we have seen it grow from a stumbling and
ineffective organization to begin with to a very effective, practical skill
and basic education center.
It is half `basic education, half of skills training, and the young men
who come here `have an average of 17. Thirty percent of them are below
third grade reading level. Most of them are `between third and fifth
grade. This `camp `brings almost all of them to `an eighth grade func-
tional literacy level.
It brings many of them to a high school equivilency level.
The skills that they are learning here, Mr. Chairman, are skills which
are marketable skills an'd we feel very strongly th'a't these are skills that
metropolitan areas need, as well as rural areas, carpentry, warehousing,
welding, auto mechanics, masonry, `heavy equipment.
The young men who leave this center, 70 percent of them, of whom
we know, are employed in well-paying jobs. A young man last month
left to get a job at $3.56 an `hour as an offset printer.
Chairman PERKINS. I would just like to know if you had received
any prior notice before the center was closed out?
Mrs. MILLER. Oh, no, indeed, we didn't. All of our congressional
delegation is very sensitive to this. We find that no matter what their
prior views, they feel that this was a mistake.
Ohairman PERKINS. Go ahead. Identify yourself for the record.
PAGENO="0195"
1627
Mrs. KLEIN. I am Mrs. Robert Klein, I am the president of the
League of Women Voters of New Jersey. I was not prepared either to
testify today but I am very happy to have the opportunity because this
is something in which I have `been extremely interested.
I know that you have heard a lot of testimony and I really don't
want to swell the pages with redundancy but there are a few points I
would like to make. We have `been very concerned about the closing of
Kilmer. We have `been down to visit `and interviewed a lot of people,
including the corps members who live in the area.
We really wish that thi's center `could be kept open. There are pres-
ently at least 1,500, last week, boys at Ki'lmer, average `age 17; 500 of
them `are from New Jersey, `about 600 from New York, about 100 from
the Virgin Island's and the remainder from the Northeast area.
The average stay of `a corpsman in Kilmer, I understand, is approxi-
mately 7 month's. And the cost per man-year, the figure that you have
been given, is about $6,500 per man-year including the ones that drop
out after a month.
To me, with the average stay being 7 months, thi's mea~is that `the
average investment in a man is approximately $3,500 `to $4,000. The
program at Kilmer has graduated 50 percent of its trainees with some
skills `that they did not have when they entered `and which would en-
able `them to get employment.
This dropout rate, 50 percent, really sounds terrible until you realize
that it is pretty much on a par with the dropout rate of colleges, from
freshman to graduation, and it is not an unusual dropout rate for reg-
ular public `schools within `a State. Yet, this is a program that is de-
`signed for the most difficult to train boys that we need to reach.
So, the 50-percent dropout rate really sounds to me like a 50-percent
success ra'te or a rather higher success rate. This expenditure of $3,000
to $4,000 per `average man is really a relatively `small investment for
the United States to make in a young man who all `his life has been
exposed to the lowest level of services.
He has had poor medical care. He has had terrible schooling. He has
had awful housing. He has ha'd no dental care. All of the things that
we all take for granted and which we give to our children, invest in our
children without `any thought to,these boys have been deprived of.
If the Job. `Corps center at Camp Kilmer can take these `boys and
make 50 percent of them go forth into jobs, even if it was only 20 per-
cent, I would feel this is a very good place `for us to `spend our money.
We are taking boys who really don't fit into society a't all, who have
no place to go and no hope. If we can change even some of them into
taxpaying employed ci'tizens, I don't see how we `could possibly make a
better investment.
l,~Then I was down at Kilmer last week I heard some testimony `from
employers in the area, businessmen who spoke about the `boys that they
have employed from Kilmer. `Some of these boys have to travel an hour
and a half to get to work because as you know, Mr. Chairman, many of
our factories are moving out of the central cities where `they are now
proposing to put the minicenters. `
The people rnare living in the central cities and to get jobs in these
outlying factories they have to `travel considerable distances. These.
men testified that these `boys from Kilmer despite the long travel, `had
a `better attendance rate and less of `an absentee rate `than the average
PAGENO="0196"
1628
employee which considering the short training that they have had and
what they have come for, I think is a tremendous testimony to the suc-
cess of the program.
They also said that the boys that they have employed from this pro-
gram have come to them in the last few days or this was, you know,
when we first heard about Kilmer closing, come to them and say "What
are they doing to my home ?" and they thought this was very signifi-
cant and I do, too, that to these boys, Camp Kilmer was their home.
It was the only stable environment they have ever known that offered
them a chance for some kind of hope and dignity and a future.
Why is it being closed ? It was only opened three and a half years
ago. It grew out of an idea. It had no design, no program, no plan, no
knowledge of how to operate. In that very short time, they have come
up with innovative ideas in tea.ching, they have graduated 4,000 corps-
men who have come from the lowest economic and educational echelon.
There is no major educational institution in the country that has been
required to prove itself in three and a half years. As an example Eisen-
hower College, which was established last year won't create one single
graduate for another 2 years.
At what point in time are we going to evaluate Eisenhower College
and whether it is a successful institution, certainly not within three
and a half years after the time it was opened.
We hear a great deal about the need to save money. There will be
considerable expense in terminating Camp Kilmer. It means a loss of
capital outlay, a termination of staff, the dismantling of a multimillion-
dollar installation.
I would really urge that this Job Corps be continued for at least
another year of operations so that it could be evaluated during that
time and in the meantime these minicenters could be opened up and
given a chance to prove themselves.
I know that you know that we in the league are not opposed to any
new experimental ideas or innovative ideas to try and meet this terrible
problem of the hard-core unemployed.
Certainly, we are not, you know, indelibly welded to the Job Corps
center as the only answer or the final solutiou.
Bu~ to dismantle it at this point when the other plans are on the
drawing board, and when you realize that we now have 500 boys from
all over New Jersey and Kilmer and we only contemplate one mini-
center in the future in Newark, which will accommodate 300 students,
it really doesn't seem to me that this is a successful replacement for the
program we have.
I could go on and on. I really don't want to do that. I do hope that
we can find some way of not destroying a program because it has not
in 3 years accomplished what nobody has been able to accomplish and
that is the total 100-percent rehabilitation of those who are most diffi-
cult to train.
We are trying to economize in an area of human resources and this is
in the area where we should be expanding, not economizing.
This kind of move can only be viewed by those affected as callous dis-
regard for their needs and I think it is an unfortunate mistake to close
these centers at this time, before we have a substitute program to
provide.
Thank you.
Chairman PlaffiNs. Does the other lady have a statement?
PAGENO="0197"
1629
STATEMENT OP MRS. ROBERT It. MASTERTON, CAPE ELIZABETH,
MAINE
Mrs. MASTERTON. I `am Mrs. Robert R. Masterton, from Cape Eliza-
beth, Maine. I am a State board member of the Maine League of
Women Voters and a `member of the Portland League of Women
Voters in Portland, Maine.
My comments are from my own personal experience with Job Corps
girls. Probably `because I was a league member I was asked to partici-
pate in the WICS program which as you know, is Women in Com-
munity Service which helped to screen the Jo'b `Corps girls in Portland,
Maine.
First of all, we had to `beat the bushes for these girls and then we
found that the criteria for their eligibility for the program were such
factors as they lived in dilapidated housing with lack of sanitation,
that perhaps they came from a one-parent family, that they were out
of school, and that they were jobless.
These were the factors that we considered, and the more factors that
the girls could exhibit, the more eligible they became for the J'ob Corps
program.
Also, probably because of my league affiliation, I was asked to serve
on a community relations organization in the Portland area to help
welcome the girls into our general area. We brought them into our
community. We ran Job Corps for a week, showing the general public
what the girls had been learning in a year's time, at the Job Corps
center closest to us.
I can't tell you how really exciting this experience is for middle-
class, white, educated women to meet with mostly Negro girls from
other areas throughout the country. The ones that were chosen, se-
lected to come into Portland, Maine, for the week were perhaps su-
perior examples `of the girl's `at the Job C'orps center. I am willing to
admit this fact. But the ones that were `there in discussions that we had,
where we really let down our hair, were appreciative of their oppor-
tunity and the Job Corps and they had a true realization of their worth
as individuals, and their potentiality as responsible members of our
society.
Another thing I want to comment `on, because I am a certified teacher
in the State of Maine, is the technique which is used in basic education
in the Job `Corps program. Teachers like to experiment, teachers like to
reach people in new ways and in effective ways. `They like to be a suc-
cess as teachers.
In talking with some of the instructors at the Job `C'orp's center, I
have been greatly impresse'd at their willingness to try to use new
techniques. If a technique doesn't work, then they are flexible enough
to change it and try something new.
I want to say that the program is so flexible that one or two of the
girls that I have known `about have actually taken college courses in
the area. So they have had that experience.
They may not go on to complete their college education but they have
tasted something of it.
We also know in Portland because we do have a Neighborhood Youth
Corps there that some aspects of that program were not as successful
as they might have been because the youngsters having spent a success-
ful day in the Neighborh'ood Youth Corps, in jobs, and in basic edu-
PAGENO="0198"
1630
cation, returned to their homes at night to very bad environments which
simply undermined all that they had learned during the day and the
people involved in the program have been frustrated by this factor.
On the other hand, the Job Corps is an away-from-home experience
for which nothing else can be quite substituted.
I am making a plea for the Job Corps center which was one that
was entered on the list of those to be closed the last minute as a mar-
ginal success. I want to point out that that Job Corps center has been
in existence for under 3 years. Thousands and thousands of dollars
were spent in renovating this old watering place for the girls in the Job
Corps, winterizing it and getting it ready for their programs.
I really don't think that this short time has proven one way or the
other the success of the program there. So I would like to make a plea
that the Job Corps center in Poland Springs remain.
Thank you very much.
Chairman PnuKINs. Let me compliment all of you women, the lady
from Camp Kilmer, the lady from the Voters League of New Jersey,
and the lady from Nevada, and the other too, from Poland Springs,
Maine.
You have all made excellent statements. And I hope somewhere along
the line we may obtain some results. This will depend upon a lot of
things.
Are those all the ladies that came to make statements?
Mrs. MILI~nR. Might I have these entered into the record?
Chairman PEiu~INs. Without objection, they will be; it is so ordered.
(The documents referred to follow:)
[From Our Paper, Apr. 24, 1969, Carson City, Nev.]
LEAGUE PROTESTS
The Board of Directors of the League of Women Vcders visited our Center last
week and were impressed with the work programs they saw in action and with
our education department's achievements.
At their convention in Sparks, Nevada, the League of Women Voters went on
record as recognizing the merits of Clear Creek Job `Corps Center and opposed
to its closing. They plan to talk directly with Nevada's congressional delegates in
Wa~hfngton, D.C. We welcome the League's interest in our situatiOn and ap~re-
elate their efforts in our behalf.
It was a pleasure to invite our guests to have dinner here and we were proud of
the efforts of our corpsmen cooks, supervised by Staff Cook Everett `EdWards, and
appreciate the K.P.'s extra efforts.
APRIL 10, 1969.
Memorandum to: Center Director, Clear Creek `Civilian Conservation `Center.
Prom: Sherman B. Boyce, District Ranger D-1.
Subject: Planning and Job Corps.
The Carson District is so close to the work production at the Clear Creek
Civilian Conservation Center and has received so many items of value, we some-
times forget to thank ~ou and your people for the effort.
This new office that we are in now and the finiShed landscape is going to be an
asset to Carson City in both public service hnd aesthetic values. This could not
have `been accomplished without the Job Corj~s organization or goed work super-
vision in the field.
Benefits such as the new camp units and toilet buildings at Nevada Beach and
Spooner Summit, and many others too numerous to mention, could not have been
realized.
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1631
We recently received some items consiructed by the cai~pen'try shop that are
especially impressive. These are the Formica covered cabinets and `display unit
for `the Carson and Second Street `offices. It was my understanding that the
materials list, layout, and construction of `these cabinets was completed by Bob
Barns, `a graduate Job Corpsman. The actual ~aiue of `these cabinets, if pur-
chased on the `market, is unknown. However, the `personal value of `h'aving these
professional "homemade" items in the `office certainly exceeds the cash value of
the product.
We `do appreciate what the Job `Corps organization ha's done for us, ev'en
though we are neglectful in `thanking you `and your organization for `the work that
is done.
SHERMAN B. BOYCE.
[From Our Paper, Apr. 17, 1969, Carson City, Nev.1
(By Director Smith)
I am still not prepared to "toss in the towel" knd say `that `Clear Creek will
definitely be closed. `I do know there is quite a `bit of controversy around the pro-
posed closures `both locally and nationally.
Later this week or next I am fairly confident that we will be furnished `the
list of items upon which the proposed `closures is `based. Feel assured that I will
review `the `items carefully, compare the statistics of other Centers with ours here
at Clear `Creek and give all of you a "guess" `at that time `as to what `I think our
chances are of remaining open.
I `am confident we will `see some Job `Corps Centers closed. If we a're destined
`to `be one of those closed, we will cl'ose `the same way we have operated `in the
past year-we will be one of the best closing Centers in the west!
All of you ha've `been discussing the possibility `of the `State of `Nevada taking
over `Clear Creek. This `is an entirely `separate `matter `all together. `I `have been
assured `by proper authorities that `the proposed closing of Clear Creek and the
State proposal are `two entirely separate item's. The State i's interested only if
Clear Creek is closed `because `of statistical ranki'ngs. I `have no reason to believe
otherwise. A's a matter of `fact, S'ta'te personnel `are assisting in every way pos-
sible to gather information concerning our proposed closure.
This is a period of stress and strain for all of us. Each individual at the Center
is highly concerned as to what is going to happen. All I can say at this time
is-let's keep our chins up, spirits as high as possible, `and continue to run a good
center.
As I receive `positive information, either good or bad, `I will keep you informed.
`COMMENTS
Talking with corpsmen `about our `program has shown tha't `many of them fully
realize `this as their "second ch'ance." My hope is that they won't give up, regard-
less of what `occurs in the future. They are aware that the program `has been good
for `them, `helping `them toward employment `and improving their education. The
record for our Center speaks for itself. I joi'n with my coworkers in re~rebting the
loss of the corpsmen's "second chance."
CHARLES BEASLEY,
Resident Worker.
It's unfortunate that `so many corpsmen with the desire and confidence of
making something out of themselves will perhaps have to give up all their hard
work `and their chance of `better qualifying themselves due to the possible closure
of our Job Corps `Center. However, whatever the `decision may be, my best wishes
to all those corpsmen who have tried to make Clear Creek an `outstanding Center-
the best in the West.
`C. JOHNSON.
Resident Worker.
If `the `decision to `close the `Center goes through, we `can give a lot of `thought
to the why of it. A hurt will be felt by many; politics is going to make a hardship
for many. This closing definitely is political.
BOB DAGGETT.
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1632
FACT SHEET ON CLEAR CREEK JOB CORPS CENTER
LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF NEVADA,
Carson City, Nev., April 20, 1969.
This Job Corps Center is: 3% years old; is operated by Forest Service, Toiyabe
National Forest; serves 200+ drop-outs at a time; has averaged a stay of 7
months per man; has seen 000 go through program, with changed skills & atti-
tudes & habits of work; has a known placement record of 70+% (placement
figures are hard to pin down, so more hired are presumed, but this 70% is sure).
Average age of young men is 17.
Program is % basic education, % skills training.
Since young men are at the Center 24 hours a day, program is also: training
in leisure time use, games, hobby crafts, sports, hiking, fire-fighting, search-&-
rescue; training in leadership, social skills, student government; individual
and group counseling.
Skills training leads directly to well-paid jobs in both rural & metropolitan
areas (ex. $3.56 an hour offset press operator in Sacramento last month).
Major training fields are:
Carpentry Cabinet Making Masonry
Warehousing Truck Driving Heavy Equipment Operation
Welding Landscaping Service Station Attendant
Graphic Arts Culinary
Employers and labor unions have helped develop individual training plans and
training record systems, geared to industry's actual demands.
Skills training projects contribute directly either to Center development and
maintenance, or to products used in Toiyabe National Forest.
Major projects of 31/2 years have been-
New Forest Ranger Station, Carson City;
New Ranger dwelling, Bridgeport, California;
New Ranger dwelling, Tonopah, Nevada;
Forest Service warehouse, Tonopah;
Forest Service warehouse remodeled near Fallon, Nevada;
New shelter, Ichthyosaur State Park, Toiyabe Forest, Gabbs, Nevada;
New Forest Service picnic area near Spooner Summit, Lake Tahoe;
5 miles of new forest access road near Hawthorne, Nevada;
8 miles of forest road reconstruction near Hawthorne;
700 acres of range revegetation near Austin, Nevada; and
Several miles of rangeland fences in various parts of Nevada.
1,000,000.=$$ value of work done for Toiyabe National Forest and remaining
for local use.
Basic education starts wIth 30% of youth below 3d grade, most between 3d &
5th, has taken some to High School Equivalency; has taken most to 8th grade
functioning level; motivatIon of total program dissolves hang-ups youth pre-
viously had about education; this camp ranks high: out of 82 camps, only 10
higher in math, 18 in reading.
Cost is around $1,000,000 a year:
Cost $5,500 per corpsman, includes clothing, dental costs (high, and some-
times paid twice in year with 7-month average stay), medical expenses. Also
includes $1,400 in raw materials for proje~ts which stay on land in finished
products for Forest campsites.
Earning capacity of graduated corpsman will return whole cost to U.S. in
taxes alone in 3 years.
The productive morale and quality of manliness everywhere evident in this
Center have no price tag, either for the young man or for the country.
LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF TUCSON,
Tucson, Ariz., April 28, 1969.
Hon. MORRIS K. IJDALL,
House Office Building,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR MR. UDALL: The League ~f Women Voters ha's supported the Job Corps.
Removing young people from environments holding little hope for improving their
opportunities for employment and placing them in residential settings where both
job ann'd basic educational training would be available, away from the distrac-
tions of other influences, seemed worthy of trial as a means to provide equal oppor-
tunity to the disadvantaged for education and employment.
PAGENO="0201"
1633
To set up replacement faeiliti~s in 30 urban centers by July seems unrealistic.
This is the date that Secretary Shultz set for closing 59 Job Corps centers, in~lud-
ing all in Arizon'a. Therefore the League opposes the abrnpt closing of Job Corps
centers. Continued withdrawal *~f promised assistance and opportunIty cannot
help but muke the disadvantaged cynlcal `and disillu's'ioned about the depth of
commitment the nation has to overcoming poverty and discrimination.
As urban "mini" skill centers are developed, they may prove better able to fill
the needs of the severely disadvantaged. The League would not then oppose,
and might well support, phasing out the Job Corps. It does not believe, however,
that opening "mini" centers necessitates precipitous closing of Job Corps centers.
The "saving" anticipated comes about, in part, through serving smaller numbers
(10,000 less). Too, the relatively high yearly costs per enrollee in the Job Corps
are somewhat offset because many of these young people, especially in conserva-
tion centers, do constructive work whose value had been appraised at $56 million
by the end of 1968.
Secretary Shultz' intended action may be illegal as well. Senator Muskie
(P. Me.) said that closing more than one half of the centers means that less than
40 percent of male enrollees will be in conservation corps as required by the
Economic Opportunity Amendments of 1967 (P.L. 90-222, Section 106, a).
Please give opposition to the abrupt closing of Job Corps Centers your con-
sideration. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Mrs. W. S. WILLIAMs, President.
Chairman PERKINS. The commiftee will recess until 9 a.m. tomorrow
morning.
(Whereupon, at 3 :25 p.m., the committee recessed until 9 a.m., Fri-
day, May 2, 1969.)
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PAGENO="0203"
ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY AMENDMENTS OF 1969
FRIDAY, MAY 2, 1969
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
TASK FORCE ON POVERTY OF TIlE
COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR,
Washington, D.C.
The task force met at 9:50 a.m., pursuant to recess, in room 2175,
Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Carl D. Perkins (chairman of
the committee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Perkins, O'Hara, Quie, Erlenborn, Esch,
Steiger, and Landgrebe.
Staff members present: H. D. Reed, Jr., general counsel; William
F. Gaul, associate general counsel; Robert E. McCord, chief clerk
and senior specialist; Charles W. Radcliffe, minority counsel for educa-
tion; and John Buckley, chief minority investigator.
Chairman PERKINS. The committee will come to order. A quorum is
present.
I am glad this morning, Congressman Pickle, to welcome you here
and Mr. Templeton who, to my way of thinking, is one of the great
authorities in the whole country insofar as the education of the youth
of this country is concerned.
I think you want to introduce Mr. Templeton.
Immediately preceding those remarks, I want to ask unanimous
consent to present this petition that Mrs. Morse carried in here this
morning and gave to the stenographer.
STATEMENT OP HON. J. J~. PICKLE, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS PROM THE STATE OP TEXAS
Mr. PICKLE. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to present
to the committee this morning Dr. Arleigh Templeton, president of
Sam Houston State College.
Although many members of the committee have visited with him
personally, either here in Washington or at the Gary Corps Center in
San Marcos, Tex., I feel it a privilege to present him here to you. He is
one of the best known educators in the Southwest. He is president of a
college but has extensive experience in both elementary and secondary
education programs, in the junior college level of education, and now is
president of Sam Houston State College. He is experienced in the field.
He is a recognized holder of a doctorate degree and, yet, though he is
recognized in the education field, his authoritative advice carries the
force of a southwesterner who brooks no nonsense in a program that
be thinks is as extremely valuable to America as the Job Corps.
(1635)
PAGENO="0204"
1636
He has been the chairman of the Texas Education Foundation, a
nonprofit corporation, since the beginning of that project. We like to
think we have a successful project. If this is so, it is because we have
had leadership of men like Arleigh Templeton, Dr. Baker, and others.
So, I consider it a particular matter of pride to be able to present to
the committee Dr. Arleigh Templeton.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead, Dr. Templeton.
I want to concur with everything that has been said because I have
known of your work for a long time.
We would appreciate your views on a subject which we feel you have
special knowledge of.
STATEMENT OF ARLEIGH TEMPLETON, PRESIDENT, SAM HOUSTON
STATE COLLEGE, HUNTSVILLE, TEX., TEXAS EDUCATION FOUN-
DATION
Dr. TEMPLETON. Thank you.
Congressman Pickle, Chairman Perkins, members of the committee,
I would like to keep my testimony in line with the experience I have
had as chairman of the board of directors of a nonprofit corporation
in Texas charged with the responsibility of directing two centers, a
women's center in McKinney, Tex., and a men's center in San
Marcos, Tex.
In the men's center, we have had upward of 3,000 boys.
In the women's center, we have had up to 750 girls, but are generally
organized, staffed, and equipped for 600 girls.
We have had many, many problems with the Job Corps.
I will again reiterate that this is a nonprofit organization. I have
contributed my services over the years to Job Corps, and others
have done the same.
I would at this point like to give much credit to the former
Governor of Texas, Governor Com~ially, who gave terrific leadership
to the Job Corps. Governor Connally on many occasions spent an
entire day at Gary, working with us and working with these boys
and helping to organize and make successful the Job Corps program.
As I see the Job Corps program, it has met the needs of a large
segment of our country. I like to think of it as a group that does not
complete high school education, a group for whom a technical and
vocational program has not been supplied. It represents the young-
sters who have lost their self-respect. It represents a group of young-
sters, who, when properly organized for other things in this country,
could become a grave problem for our society.
Some of the problems we have had in the Job Corps over the
years, of course, has been actually the lack of understanding by all
facets of our community, all facets of State and Federal Govern-
ment, and by the education community, itself.
Other problems we have had, of course, is revising curriculums.
We started out with a standard curriculum and found out rather
hurriedly that this would not work. So, we have rewritten all of our
`curriculums to relate to the various vocational programs.
The youngster at Gary and at McKimiey comes in the first day
and, rather than a long period of indoctrination, gets down to the
business of improving himself in vocational skills and through our
academic program.
PAGENO="0205"
1637
A typical corpsman is a person 17~ years old. He has been out of
school since the eighth grade. He has a fifth-grade reading, mathe-
matics skills, and writing ability. He has been out of school for a year.
His family lives in substandard, overcrowded housing. He is unem-
ployed. And, at the time he comes to the Job Corps, he has been seek-
ing a job. He is looking for something to improve himself.
I guess the thing that has pleased me more than anything else is to
see the tremendous improvement in these youngsters' reading and
mathematics ability.
We have been able to move these youngsters along from six and
one-half to seven and one-half grade level months of advancement.
An instructor-month is twenty 50-minute class periods. In other
words, we have been able to move these youngsters about 5~ to 7~
times as fast as we ever thought we could.
We now, through our general education development program, find
any number of these youngsters that are completing the "go ahead"
along with a course in automotive mechanics, heavy equipment
operation, and other vocational programs.
So, I think one of the greatest things the Job Corps has done is
simply getting the youngsters back on the mainstream of a semi-
formal program of education.
An amazing thing that we have found, in the 5 years, 85 percent of
the corpsmen who come to McKinney and Gary need dental care. At
Gary, alone, we have from 1,000 to 2,100 dental visits per month. So-
Chairman PERKINS. How many dental visits per month at Gary?
Dr. TEMPLETON. From 1,000 to 2,100.
The most we have had is 2,100 visits.
Chairman PERKINS. What is the cost of that dental service if you
had to go to a private dentist?
Dr. TEMPLETON. I only know the cost, Chairman Perkins, of my
own dental work.
I recently had an inlay and it cost me $135. I recently had a tooth
filled and it cost me $12 per filling. I could get the number of fillings
times $12 and give you that figure, but I don't have it at this time.
But this is one of the things that cost in the Job Corps, to get these
youngsters back into reasonable physical condition.
Then the medical care.
In the last 8 months-I just pulled the Gary figures-we had
31,536 visits to physicians; 30,428 of the visits were handled by the
center medical staff, itself. The center currently handles about 25
inpatients per day.
Chairman PERKINS. You have your own hospital?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Right.
Now the thing on cost, I don't mind speaking to this issue.
At McKinney, where we have a small center, the cost will run about
$1,500 per corpswoman.
At Gary, where we have been able to take many of the built-in
costs and serve 3,000 boys, we have been able to reduce the cost by
almost $1,000. un 1967, the total direct operating cost per corpsman
at Gary was $4,206 per man-year. In fiscal year 1968, it was $4,409
per man-year; and in 1969, it was $4,320 per man-year.
Now this includes, of course, the problems that we have had in
staffing with the increasing teacher salary schedule, with the tre-
mendous inflated cost of operation, of materials, supplies, and mainte-
nance.
PAGENO="0206"
1638
We figure that our 1970 cost will be right at $4,400; maybe a dollar
or so under.
So, we think with the inflated cost that we have been able to do a
fair job.
Now, this includes all the corpsman's food, all of his clothing, his
medical care, his dental work, his training, his supplies, and all the
services of a city. You realize that we actually run a city. We provide
all the street work, the water and sewage facilities, police protection,
and everything that is required of a city of some 4,000 people. So,
these costs do add up.
But still, 1 think this is a rather reasonable figure at around $4,300.
1 would say here that this is one of the things that this country
needs to realize, that with any technical and vocational education
program you must have the support of business and industry. They
are the people who will eventually employ the trainees.
In Texas, we had 100 Texas-based companies, the largest companies
in Texas, like the Brown-Root, Lin-Temco-Vought, and all the large
organizations. They formed a nonprofit organization known as
Opportunities, Inc.
We brought them in to audit our program to insure up-to-date
industrial needs are met. Our criteria in the beginning was that when
we don't place youngsters in jobs we close this segment of the program.
Now, this is the only criterion of technical and vocational education
that I think we should look at.
If the boy cannot get a job when he is trained, then there is some-
thing wrong with the program.
Opportunities, Inc., has furnished placement support. The biggest
thing they have done is create an industrial awareness of our trained
manpower availability. The people in Texas are very conscious of the
Gary trainees and the McKinney trainees.
In fiscal year 1968, of 3,524 positive output, 83 percent were placed
and at the time the check was made 17 percent were pending. The
average starting wage in 1968 for these youngsters was $1.71 an hour.
For the first 6 months of fiscal 1969, of 1,640 positive output, 82
percent had been placed and 18 percent pending, at an average starting
wage of $1.83 an hour.
We have had 304 companies that have hired corpsmen from these
centers.
The rate of placement has improved very steadily since 1965. I
recently polled July, August, and September records. The July out-
put, 91 percent have already been placed; August, 90 percent have
been placed; and September, 90 percent were placed.
Chairman PERKINS. Ninety-one, ninety, and ninety?
Dr. TEMPLETON. That is right; for the months of July, August, and
September.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead.
Dr. TEMPLETON. In the Harris survey that I am sure you are
acquainted with-
Chairman PERKINS. Yes. We want you to comment on that.
Dr. TEMPLETON. The Harris survey simply proved that the reten-
tion is consistent with industry averages.
I have done some surveys recently. I was interested in some pro-
grams for training clerical people for insurance companies. I was
PAGENO="0207"
1639
amazed to find out in three insurance companies that I checked they
considered that their turnover of first-level entry employees was about
43 percent a year.
So, the turnover of Gary trainees in their first job is entirely con-
sistent with that that business and industry experience from people
they employ off the streets or through their employment agencies.
Actually, we have probably a little better holding time.
Now, the employers, according to the Harris survey, rate the
corpsman training as satisfactory to excellent. The industry's demand
exceeds supply, according to the survey, of 6,880 requests in 1968.
We are not able to supply anything like the demand of business and
industry.
Further, the Harris survey shows that, and this was probably the
best survey that has been made, they contacted 9,463 corpsmen who
had terminated from 6 to 15 months. In other words, they had been
out of the Job Corps from 6 to 15 months. This gives you probably
the best survey that you can find.
I was amazed, myself, to note that the employers when contacted
by the Harris Associates said that 83 percent of them get along well
with other employees; 87 percent get along with the supervisors; 78
percent have the ability to do the job well.
Now, I think that is the crux of the whole survey, that you have
trained 78 percent of these people to be effective in business and in-
dustry in a productive way; 76 percent of them followed the rules
and reguiations well; 72 percent wanted to learn more about the job
than they needed.
So, this tells you in summary that they get along well with people;
they are not recalcitrant. They follow rules and regulations and they
are desirous of improving themselves within their own scope of em-
ployment. So, I think this really, Chairman Perkins, is the crux of the
Harris survey.
Forty-one percent of them had received a raise in pay. One percent
had received a promotion, and 5 percent both raise and promotion.
Now, I think in closing that we can say that the Job Corps is a
program in human reclamation. It is taking a group of people who
failed almost everything known to our society, helping them to restore
their faith in themselves and in society, in this type of government,
and to become productive taxpayer citizens in this country.
Now, that is my summation of the Job Corps, as I see it.
As far as the Gary and McKinney Centers are concerned, I think
they are as successful as my college community which I manage
sometimes and I really can't say that one is any more successful than
the other.
I would be happy to answer any questions that you might have.
Chairman PERKINS. Let me first compliment you, and I want to
assure my good friends on the right that there will be no limitation
on time on you. I will take 15 minutes, myself.
You of the Texas Education Foundation are to be complimented
for the great work that you have been performing out there. The
Job Corps accomplishments speak for themselves as outstandmg
among the centers of the whole Nation.
PAGENO="0208"
1640
I have been particularly impressed by the cost figures, and the type
of training that you give these youngsters. You stated that it was
necessary to revise the curriculum in order to give them some type of
semiformal education programs and that these youngsters were not the
ordinary youngsters.
I understood from your testimony that when they came to your
center 85 percent of them needed dental care, that you had from 1,000
to 2,100 who would go for dental care within a period of a month, and
that the medical costs were just tremendous. This shows, above every-
thing else, that we are not dealing with the ordinary youngster who is
in good physical condition; but we are dealing with the bottom of the
barrel.
Have I summed up the situation about right?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Yes; you have.
Chairman PERKINS. NOW, the most amazing thing to me is the fact
that the woman's center that you speak about, the $5,100 figure and
the other figure of $4,200 or $4,300 at Gary, is almost unbelivable.
Just what does that include? Medical, dental, education, and what
else?
Dr. TEMPLETON. It includes all of the training, the clothing, the
maintenance of their facilities, the maintenance of everything con-
nected with a city. We think of Gary-McKinney as a self-contained
city within itself.
Chairman PERKINS. From your training and experience I think
you would qualify anywhere as an expert in this area; wifi any of
these so-called mini-centers be able to give the training, education
and the services that you are giving within the figure that you have
quoted to this committee?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Chairman Perkins, I would speak to the point of
all the technical and vocational programs that I know of in Texas,
and I think I know of all of them.
I don't think that there is a single program in Texas that begins
to equal the quality of the Gary progTam. That includes the commu-
nity colleges, some of the programs that are operated by the rather
sophisticated universities. I don't think there is any question.
We have a lower caliber enrollee and our program far exceeds any
other program that I know of.
Chairman PERKINS. The Secretary of Labor before the committee
the other day, if my recollection serves me correctly, cited the New
Haven Center as a model that they intended to pattern after. We
had the manager of the center down here yesterday. He stated that
his Center was no substitute for the Job Corps. He stated it un-
equivocally. He stated that the limited number that they could house,
the average cost per bed was $5,700 annually, without any training.
He said the education was performed in the public schools.
They only rendered supportive services (that is the terminology
he used) before and after school. And no dental consideration, no
medical facilities were included in that $5,700. And no Government
subsidy was included, such as the NYC or the MDTA programs.
That cost was not included.
Now my question: Is it your judgment that these centers that are
proposed to be opened some time in the future, will be more expensive
to operate than the Job Corps with its ~existing facilities?
PAGENO="0209"
1641
In your opinion, will it cost Government more money to try to do
something for this hard-core youngster than it is now costing the
Government to operate the present Job Corps Centers if the proposal
of the Secretary is allowed to go into effect?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Chairman Perkins, I have not studied the new
program thoroughly that the Secretary has recommended. But I
can tell you unequivocally the components of a program that will be
successful with this group of youngsters.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead.
Dr. TEMPLETON. The first thing that you must develop is the
program, itself. Now, frankly we failed in the beginning because we
did not bother to find out about the youngster. Our drop-out in the
beginning was about 37 percent. When we finally realized that we had
to write a program for these youngsters, not one that had been written,
we threw away all the materials we had, we threw away all the text-
books and everything that these youngsters had failed from and we
wrote a new program relating to the youngster.
Then we set out simple guidelines for these youngsters.
Now, the second thing, the most important thing, is the recruitment
of a qualified staff of people who have the heart and the courage and
the ability to understand the youngster, himself, and the problem
and the solution. Now, this is where any type of short-term program
will fail.
Now, it might amaze you to know that we have fed out of our pro-
gram an amazingly large number of people who have gone back to
education: Five Superintendents of schools today, about eight or 10
or 12 high school principals. The most amazing thing that I couldn't
explain anywhere but it is true, there are 22 State-supported State
colleges and universities in Texas. Two of the deans of women of these
22 schools worked at the Gary Corps Center over a year.
I bothered to find out about these women and what they learned
at Gary. The feeling for people, the understanding of people with
problems, has made them likely successful deans of women.
Now, there is no relationship of the Gary Men's Job Corps Center
to the dean of women but I am pointing out to you that the caliber
and quality of people put together in a staff with an able director is
an essential and without it there is no way to be successful.
The vocational programs must relate to the jobs at hand.
The next thing, there has to be a total interest in this whole pro-
gram. As you no doubt know, in the 5 years we have been in business
we have deobligated back to the Federal Government over a million
dollars each year, back to the Government, for other programs in
Job Corps, whatever they wanted to do with it. In other words, we
have not been in a spending race.
I think that it is an essential to buy the elements of the program
needed to be successful and do away with excessive-now, this is a
bad statement-excessive profit motives and get down to the business
of solving this problem that you laid out originally in the beginning.
Now, if the new programs don't do these things, there is no way for
them to be successful.
Another thing that I have learned, I didn't know this, these
youngsters need an environmental change.
27-754-69-pt. 3-14
PAGENO="0210"
1642
Chairman PERKINS. I was going to ask you about that.
Dr. TEMPLETON. Now, if the youngster has to go home at night to
the environment of a ghetto home, of the rural farm home, where there
are not lights, no electricity, no water, no screens, large family, small
quarters, insufficient food, if you raise him up in the daytime and send
him back to this environment at night, I can see nothing but a state of
confusion in the mind of this youngster.
Now, I will agree that that first 30 days in the Job Corps is the
critical area. But, as I told you, we have moved from 37 percent loss
in the first 30 days down to 20 to 23 percent, simply because we have
bothered to help this youngster adjust to this new environment.
We have tried to make him understand that this is a better way of
life; it is better for you; and you can pull yourself up by your own
bootstraps by taking advantage of these opportunities.
Now, I contend that if you have to send him back to his environ-
ment-
Chairman PERKINS. What percentage of these boys, as a general
rule, that come to your Center need a change in their environment?
Dr. TEMPLETON. I would say 99.99967-that means almost all of
them.
Chairman PERKINS. That means practically all of them?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Right.
Chairman PERKINS. The centers where these youngsters are pro-
posed to spend five days and then sent home on weekends, this is not
going to be enough change to have this impact on this problem
youngster, is it?
Dr. TEMPLETON. It is my opinion you have to do the total job on
him. You have to get his teeth fixed; you have to get the wrinkles
out of his stomach; you have to get his medical problem solved. It
is a psychological problem. It is simply the restoration-
Chairman PERKINS. I am wondering, and I never got any answer
from the administration, just who is going to do this training in the
mini-centers. Are they going to leave it up to the public school
system? I don't think they know presently. Or are they going to
advertise it with competing people in the communities?
Do you know anything along that line that you could comment on?
Dr. TEMPLETON. As you know, I have a college community of
about 8,000 people. This and the Job Corps has kept me so busy that
I have not kept up with the new program, frankly. So, I would not be
qualified to even discuss the---
Chairman PERKINS. Now, your enrolJment at Gary amounts to
how many?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Three thousand.
Chairman PERKINS. That is the reason undoubtedly that you are
able to keep this cost figure down.
Dr. TEMPLETON. That is the difference in the McKinney cost and
the Gary cost, the administrative costs, your medical costs and all
other costs.
Chairman PERKINS. Now, trying to operate a center of 30 or 40
or 50 or 150 people, the so-called mini-centers, how do you visualize
that cost? Give us your best judgment.
Dr. TEMPLETON. I doubt in the first place that you could staff
it with qualified people. If you could, the going price in the market
PAGENO="0211"
1643
for people who can perform today is rather low. The cost of staffing
it would be high.
Now, I don't have any idea of what it would cost for medical
services, which I feel reasonably sure would go to some private con-
cern on a contract basis. There would be no way for me to determine.
I understand the cost at Gary-
Chairman PERKINS. It would be the same thing. The dental cost
would go the same way, to some private bidding, and the medical
cost would go the same way.
Dr. TEMPLETON. Right.
Chairman PERKINS. And if they did not staff it properly, the train-
ing would have to go or might go the same way.
Dr. TEMPLETON. Right.
Chairman PERKINS. You are telling this committee that the
ordinary educational program will not suit the case here. It takes
special training, experts to train this problem child.
Dr. TEMPLETON. This, together with the tremendous capital outlay
cost.
For example, the heavy equipment operation. You couldn't do this
for 500 people.
Chairman PERKINS. You could not think of doing that for a limited
number of people.
Dr. TEMPLETON. That is right.
You could not justify the cost of the type program we have, the
across-the-board vocational program.
Chairman PERKINS. So that means if we get any program at all it
has to be farmed out some way somehow. It has never been made clear
how the training will take place. The chances are in the environment
where the child grew up that he is not going to get the training and
the atmosphere. He should be out of that community and the whole
thing is just going to fall apart if we permit this proposal to take effect.
Is that your view, Mr. Templeton?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Mr Chairman, I doubt that I could document a
statement like that. I know something about the Texas program.
Chairman PERKINS. Now, has the Secretary's decision to close
down all these Job Corps camps had any psychological effect on
your enrollees and staff in your area?
Dr. TEMPLETON. When the announcement came and none of them
knew what would happen, we had a couple of days of problems. But
our people solve the problems.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead, Mr. Buckley.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Dr. Templeton, I will help you spread the Gary story.
We have studied the Gary program in depth. The story has never
been completely told for the record. I think it needs to be.
The ingredients that went into the structuring of the-
I would like to yield to Congressman Landgrebe at this point and
then maybe I can get back to it.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead, Mr. Landgrebe.
Mr. LANDGREBE. I came in so recently I did not hear much testi-
mony. I don't think I can pose any intelligent questions.
We might sit and chit-chat a moment until the chairman gets off
the phone. I will be very happy to do that.
PAGENO="0212"
1644
Not only did I arrive late at the meeting, I am one of the new
Congressmen and I have not heard the discussions over the years
about these various types of programs.
I have visited one Job Corps center in Pagosa Springs, Cob. I have
visited one of the work centers here in Washington, and at the present
time I will admit to you that Secretary Shultz's program seems to
make some sense.
Now, we discussed last evening with the League of Women Voters
that he perhaps is moving too quickly, that he will not have centers
or any place to go. Obviously, he is talking about phasuig out the
Job Corps centers by the first of July and the question is can we
really have any substitute?
I have heard the testimony. I have seen the statistics. It seems that
these Job Corps centers are not attracting or able to hold the young
men. The cost is extremely high.
Secretary Shultz states, and I seem to agree with him, that if we
are going to spend the money we ought to try to reach as many
disadvantaged youth as we possibly can.
I will be glad to hear your response to my comments.
Dr. TEMPLETON. In the first place, I don't know whether you were
here, we are the lowest cost urban center in the country. We have kept
our costs down. We are a nonprofit corporation. We have bothered
to train people rather than try to make a profit. We deobligated the
unspent funds to the tune of about a million dollars a year back to the
Government for the use in other programs.
Ours sirnp~y has been one to try to ff1 this void of the youngster
who has failed at everything that be has done.
I submit to you and the Secretary that the Gary Center is eminently
successful; 100 percent of the youngsters are dropouts. We maintain
about 77 percent holding power. This is better than public education
is doing today.
In Texas alone, of 100 third graders only 54 are finishing high school.
So, our holding power, percentagewise, is better than the program of
public education.
Mr. LANDGREBE. Can you give me the address of the Gary Center?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Yes. San Marcos, Tex.
Mr. LANDGREBE. I am sorry. The Gary Center is in Texas?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Right.
Mr. LANDGREBE. I was hoping that there would be something in
Gary, md., where I come from, because I live close to Gary, md.
Dr. TEMPLETON. This was the Gary Air Force Base where the
Center is located.
Mr. LANDGREBE. When you live 15 miles from Gary, as famous as
that city is, it has to be Gary, md.
Dr. TEMPLETON. This is almost as good as Gary, md.
Mr. LANDGREBE. Well, I assure you that Gary has its problems.
Go ahead.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead, Mr. Buckley.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Dr. Templeton, you have already indicated that
the Governor of Texas had a deep interest in the program, the then
Governor, from its inception.
Can you tell the committee what the makeup of the board of di-
rectors for the Texas Education Foundation was?
PAGENO="0213"
1645
Dr. TEMPLETON. When Governor Connally was in office, he was
extremely interested in this program. It was his idea that the program
would train people to become productive; at the same time, the spill-
over into public education would be good; the input of public school
teachers for a period of time in the Job Corps, working with this type
of youngster, feeding him back into public education. These were
some of the things he was interested in.
He put together the nonprofit corporation known as Texas Educa-
tion Foundation, of which I am chairman of the board. There are three
directors, one a highway contractor, one a banker, and I am a college
president. We are the same three that have been involved ever since
it was organized. We have all the freedom that we need.
We have had the support of the chief executive of the State. We
have had the support of business and industry. That is really the story.
U~~til business and industry and education wed somewhere, we are
not going to solve the vocational program. You can't train people
for jobs that don't exist. So, it is a cooperative venture between busi-
ness and industry and education that we really have not achieved yet.
Job Corps in this connection has been closer to it than anything
because through the Governor's influence we brought 100 industries
into the corporation as partners to audit everything we did. They have
audited every program that we put into effect and they have audited
the results of it.
That is the success story of Gary.
Mr. BUCKLEY. So, you have had the personal interest of the Gover-
nor of Texas; you have had banking; you have had industry; and
you have had education?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Right.
Mr. BUCKLEY. All equally and solidly involved in the operations
since you started?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Right.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Isn't it true that very early after your opening that
Opportunities, Inc., was formed and that they have had a substantial
input in the management systems that you have in the programs that
you started with and the programs you have added since you started?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Opportunities, Inc., of course, has audited the
program. They have audited our business management. They have
sent their business management teams in and helped us to organize
our programs so that we could get the maximum output for the
minimum cost.
That is one of the things, I am sure, that has aided us in the low cost
that we have achieved at Gary.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Is it not also true that early in the program that the
President of the United States was personally interested and that you
had considerable interest from him?
Dr. TEMPLETON. He, personally, opened the Center. He was at
Gary with the White House press and a number of people from
Government and opened the Center officially.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Is it not also true that at the time the Center was
designated as the first Job Corps Center, that a proposal had been
pulled together to submit for a vocational residential skill center
under the Vocational Education Act?
Dr. TEMPLETON. I don't have that information. I don't know.
PAGENO="0214"
1646
Mr. BUCKLEY. Would it make any difference if you called it the
Gary Job Corps Center or the Gary Vocational Residential Skifi
Center?
Dr. TEMPLETON. The main thing is that I have always felt that
Job Corps was a rather inappropriate name. It would not bother me if
it didn't have a name, if it was just a technical and vocational educa-
tion program. I don't think the name is important.
Mr. BUCKLEY. You have indicated and your predecessor, the
president, I think, of Opportunities, Inc., testified here 2 weeks ago,
that the thrust of the Gary operation has been a vocational training
experience. Would you agree with him?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Yes; very much so. It has had an influence on
public education in Texas.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Also, very early in your program you saw fit to
implement an addition to the security force that you have at the
Center, 10 or 12 U.s. deputy marshals who reside at the Center, where
their operation is exclusively at the Center.
Dr. TEMPLETON. Right.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Have you found that this has contributed in large
degree to your excellent security?
Dr. TEMPLETON. We believe that these youngsters ought to ex-
perience discipline. We handle and have handled all our problems with-
out the help of these deputy marshals. We saddle the staff with the
responsibility of handling discipline problems.
Now, the U.S. marshals are there simply to shore up our own staff,
our own security, and almost without exception we have been able to
handle our discipline problems. But the deputy marshals, of course,
give lots of backup support to our own security.
But we basically have not had the serious disciplinary problems. We
have the normal disciplinary problems you would have from 3,000
boys living closely, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Certainly, these are
expected, but we handle them. We feel this is our responsibility and we
handle them rather than to get into this business of confrontation
between the law enforcement people and this typical Job Corps
enrollee.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Would you agree that the professional expertise
available to the Center from the deputy marshals has upgraded the
security?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Definitely.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Is there any expense involved to the Center m con-
nection with the marshals?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Yes; the marshals are on our payroll.
Mr. BUCKLEY. With regard to your cost, the enrollment of 3,200
which you had the last time we were there a month ago, represents
about 10 percent of the total enrollment of the Job Corps?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Right.
Mr. BUCKLEY. After July 1, it is possible that your enrollment will
constitute about 20 percent of the Job Corps?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Right.
Mr. BUCKLEY. And your direct cost per enrollee was $4,400 a
month ago and $4,300 now. But this compares against direct cost of
the overall program at about $6,600 according to the General Account-
ing Office.
Dr. TEMPLETON. Right.
PAGENO="0215"
1647
Mr. BUCKLEY. So, your cost per enrollee with the very heavy
enrollment that you have compared to other centers is, in fact,pulling
that average cost down to $6,600. So that it appears that other centers
very likely operate at a sum in excess of that.
Are you familiar with the operations of any other Job Corps center?
Dr. TEMPLETON. No, sir. As I have told you, I have had almost a
full-time job with all the things I do and I haven't bothered to try-
now, we do compete with the others. There is a normal natural thing.
We simply want to be the best center in the Nation. We simply want to
operate at the lowest per capita cost. We have worked at this very
hard.
From most of the things I read, I think it is generally accepted that
this is the case. Certainly, the spreading of your fixed cost over a
large number of people will reduce the total cost. This is quite under-
standable. At the same time, I think you have to manage the business
and affairs of the center or the cost can certainly get away from you.
Mr. BUCKLEY. With the tremendous amount of support and consul-
tation that you have had from Opportunities, Inc., is there any expense
involved in their input?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Not one cent.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Don't you think that this factor has contributed in
part to your ability to operate at the low figure that you do?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Right.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Is there any other center any place that you have
heard of that has the cooperation and the input that the Gary Center
has?
Dr. TEMPLETON. I don't know of one that has the support of
business and industry that we have had.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Do you expect any difficulty or any change or that
your performance will be affected or made any less impressive when
you operate under the Labor Department?
Dr. TEMPLETON. We are going to operate the program exactly the
way we have operated it. We are going to try to improve it. We are
going to try to keep the cost as low as we can. We are going to de-
obligate all the funds that we don't spend at the end of each year.
I really haven't bothered to consider the difference in operating
under Labor or OEO. We are going to solve the problems first at the
local level and then work with the Labor Department, wherever the
responsibility is lodged in the Federal Government.
So, I have to be rather candid with you and say that I haven't given
it much thought. Surely the Labor Department will be as much con-
cerned as the Office of Economic Opportunity was. If they are con-
cerned, we are concerned; we will do a job in the continued develop-
ment of the program and the training of these youngsters.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Anyone who has ever been to your center I am
sure has come away just thoroughly impressed with the job you
are doing.
Has the Office of Economic Opportunity or have the administrators
of any other Job Corps studied your program and made any effort
to pattern their operations in some part after Gary?
Dr. TEMPLETON. I don't know the results of the visits but I do
know that we have had visitors from every center, every urban center,
in the country. We have had their center directors spend from 1 to 3
PAGENO="0216"
1648
days there. We have made available all the materials we have de-
veloped. We made available all the programs we have.
We haven't felt the challenge to direct the whole national program
because we have had a pretty busy job just with Gary.
I felt that if these people wanted information they needed to come
there. We have looked at their programs. We have studied their
programs. We have studied their problems. The answer is yes; we
have had almost every center director at Gary from 1 to 3 days.
Mr. BUCKLEY. I would wonder why some of the other camps haven't
been able to absorb and put into operation some of the things that
have been so successful at your center.
Apa.rt from the assistance that is furnished by the 100 Texas in-
dustries, isn't it true that you have involved a number of other
companies both in the State and in the nearby States in a program
placement?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Yes.
Mr. BUCKLEY. And that many of these companies will take as many
of your Job Corps graduates as they can get?
Dr. TEMPLETON. For every youngster we have available, I would
say we have from 30 to 50 requests. We have all of the things that are
in demand today: Automotive repairs, for example, a very scarce
supply; refrigeration mechanics. We teach automotive, refrigeration,
diesel mechanics. These people are in terrific demand. Air condition
people-for every person we train in air conditioning we must have
1,000 requests.
Another popular program is restaurant. We have a fantastic res-
taurant school where we supply cooks, butchers, busboys, waiters,
and everything, to the restaurants in the Texas area.
Mr. BUCKLEY. In some of the areas where these firms are located,
is it also not true that there is a shortage of labor supply, skilled labor,
for the available jobs that can be filled by Gary graduates?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Definitely.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Do you know of any other center who has given the
thought or so thoroughly involved a large number of private enter-
prises that are standing ready to employ the Job Corps graduates, any
other center that has arrangements comparable to that?
Mr. BUCKLEY. Don't you add training components to your pro-
gram that are suggested by industry that are in need of particular
skills and that after a very short study these programs are put into
effect at your center?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Yes.
Mr. BUCKLEY. I am thinking particularly of the plastering com-
ponent that you recently put in.
Dr. TEMPLETON. Right.
Mr. BUCKLEY. I am wondering if there are any other centers that
give thought to this and gear their training to the needed skills that
are in the region or in the area.
Dr. TEMPLETON. I don't know what these other centers have done
with respect to their survey of job opportunity. But this is an impor-
tant phase of any technical and vocational program. You need to be
adding trade courses and you need to be dropping some almost con-
stantly, with the change we have in technology in this country today.
Mr. BUCKLEY. But you are that fiedble that you can go in any
direction you need to at short notice?
PAGENO="0217"
1649
Dr. TEMPLETON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BUCKLEY. With the coordination and consultation that you
have with Opportunities, Inc.?
Dr. TEMPLETON. We can change anything at any time of the day
that we think it is necessary to change for the best interest of the
enrollees. We keep this in mind, trying to do something for this group
of youngsters. That is the foremost thing.
We don't have a profit motive; otherwise, certainly we would not
spend all the time we spend if that were the case.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Isn't it true that you run a very tight ship in a
disciplinary way and the things that are going on in the center are
pretty well known to the administrators?
Dr. TEMPLETON. I must admit that I have more problems on the
college campus than I have on the Job Corps campus.
Mr. BUCKLEY. When we were at your center last month, it was
indicated at that time there had been 47 disciplinary discharges the
first 2 months. I don't infer that at all reflects unfavorably on the
center but, on the contrary, that when you find that you can't work
with a boy that that slot is made available to somebody else.
Dr. TEMPLETON. We have psychological and psychiatric help and
a youngster is given more than another chance. But if it is someone
that the psychiatrist or psychologist feels we cannot work with, we
just have to send him back. You have to have order and discipline if
you are going to have a program. It is that simple. I don't care what
program it is.
Mr. BUCKLEY. I hope that tells a little more completely the story
of Gary, Mr. Chairman. It could even stand further study if we are
looking for answers to problems of enrolling the maximum number of
disadvantaged youth.
Dr. TEMPLETON. Mr. Chairman, I would add this: The Govern-
ment has a large investment in the Job Corps program in Texas. I
think we need to relate all the successes we have back to all vocational
programs that we have in Government, whether it is in public educa-
tion, private, or where it is. This is an investment in human recl!ama-
tion research.
Certainly, all the programs we have available to any facet of State
and Federal Government. I think that what we have learned and
what we have developed needs to be used more widely wherever it is,
Labor Department, Commerce, or HEW, or wherever it is.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Landgrebe.
Mr. LANDGREBE. I am starting to get the drift of the discussion here.
I would like to ask a couple of questions.
You have some facilities for 3,200 young men at this Gary Centei;
is that right?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Mr. Congressman, we have facilities actually for
3,000. Sometimes when the committee was at Gary we were up to a
peak load of 3,200, which crowds facilities. But we can take 3,200
people.
Mr. LANDGREBE. What is a normal enrollment.
Dr. TEMPLETON. It is 3,000.
Mr. LANDGREBE. You do maintain steady enrollment?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Right. It runs from about 2,9~O to 3,200.
Mr. LANDGREBE. Where do the boys come from? What States?
Dr. TEMPLETON. They come from all over.
PAGENO="0218"
1650
Mr. LANDGREBE. All the States?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Right. In recent years we have tried, the employ-
ment commissions have tried, to regionalize the enrollee input a little
better. So, the majority of them would be from Texas, Oklahoma,
Arkansas, Louisiana, New Mexico.
We have the finest heavy equipment school. So, if a youngster from
New York wants heavy equipment, quite naturally he comes to
Gary. That specialized program draws them from all over the Nation.
Mr. LANDGREBE. How is this recruiting handled.
Dr. TEMPLETON. Through the employment service.
Mr. LANDGREBE. The employment service in various States?
Dr. TEMPLETON. In various States; yes, sir.
Mr. LANDGREBE. You mentioned some disciplinary problems. I
will come back to that in a moment.
What is your record of dropouts? You have 3,000 boys. I know it is
revolving, but supposing 3,000 were to start on the first day of May,
how many of those 3,000 would there be on the first day of June and
so forth?
Dr. TEMPLETON. We only worry about the 30-day period. If we can
keep them 30 days, we have no problem. In 5 years, we have decreased
that 30-day dropout from 37 percent down to between 20 and 23
percent.
Mr. LANDGREBE. You are retaining, then, some 78 to 80 percent?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Right.
Mr. LANDGREBE. That 78 to 80 percent, what would be a normal
tour of duty in your example?
Dr. TEMPLETON. The normal tour of duty would be about 6 months.
Some of them go up to about 15 months, in the heavy equipment, and
the little more sophisticated vocational program.
Mr. LANDGREBE. So, your big dropout from there on just trickles
off to almost nothing?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Right. As quickly as we can get the youngster
involved in the vocational program, itself, we have learned that these
kids have been lectured. They have had orientation programs put on
by every expert in the country. We did away with orientation and all
this business and got him to his vocational choice. We got him where
he could get his hands on a machine early.
Then we started his academic program concurrently with his vo-
cational. Our dropout ratio after the 30 days is just mimmal.
Mr. LANDGREBE. This heavy equipment is obviously earthmoving,
things of that kind?
Dr. TEMPLETON. It is everything.
Mr. LANDGREBE. Do you work in a large circle from the example
or do you move back and forth? Is there some byproduct or some
benefit that we get as a country?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Now, we are not in conservation. We are primarily
in the urban technical and vocational progran~. Occasionally we go
out and do some things. For example, we had a big forest fire and the
youngsters went out and they were furnished bulldozers and they
saved literally thousands of acres of timberland by the bulldozer
operation. They built parking lots for churches. They have built
various and sundry things.
But we try to keep this at a minimum simply because our goal is
to teach this youngster to operate the equipment and get him on the
PAGENO="0219"
1651
payroll. If we let every community in Texas begin to request the
services, then we would be involved in so much community work we
would never get anybody trained and the cost would be twice as high.
Mr. LANDGREBE. You mentioned the doctors and dentists.
How large a staff do you have?
Dr. TEMPLETON. We are very, very fortunate. We were able to
get a doctor, a fine M.D., who had just retired from the Air Force.
He has a great feel for these youngsters. So, he has built a medical
staff at Gary.
We contract some of our work out to local hospitals that we don't
feel that we can do. We have our own psychiatrists, our own psy-
chologists and then registered nurses.
Mr. LANDGREBE. One more real serious question and that is the
incorrigibles that you have to ship back home.
Do you have any idea how we as a responsible Government could
try to get to these boys? What more can we do for them?
Dr. TEMPLETON. This has been a matter of great concern for us.
We have done studies with them. We have tried to find out where they
came from. This type of youngster has been apprehended from one to
12 times before we get him. He has normally a low ability. He probably
is from a home where there are illiterate parents. He is a terribly
mixed-up youngster.
We have not been able to reach some of them with anything that
is known to man. So, I am afraid that these are some of the people
that you are going to have walking around the streets 8 or 10 years
from now.
It is a matter of great concern to me, personally, as a citizen and a
taxpayer, more so than just being involved in education.
Mr. LANDGREBE. Thank you kindly.
That is all, I believe, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. I have a few more questions, Dr. Templeton.
There has been a lot of talk before this committee about moving
these kids 1,000 miles away from home. I think we can all agree if we
had the facilities within a region that it would be much more de-
sirable. But the reason the employment offices move these young-
sters after they are counseled and it is decided that they need a
special type of training, they know where to send that youngster,
where there is a slot that gives this particular type of training. Is
that correct?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Right.
Chairman PERKINS. And that is the chief reason the youngsters
sometimes are transported 2,000 or 3,000 miles across the country.
Am I correct in that assumption?
Dr. TEMPLETON. That is correct.
Chairman PERKINS. Now, you stated that you had to provide a new
curriculum for this youngster. You threw away the regular study, the
regular textbook, because of the special attention and the special
problems, to devise a curriculum that was suitable to give the young-
sters some semiformal education.
My point is that it does not matter whether you call this a Job
Corps center or a vocational center or a technical center, your center
is tooled up for this problem youngster whereas the regular vocational
technical schools in Texas are not geared up to serve this particular
youngster. Am I correct in that?
PAGENO="0220"
1652
Dr. TEMPLETON. That is true. Some of the community college cat-
alogs have a sentence in them that absolutely makes their vocational
program out of bounds for these students wherein they state, "Admis-
sion is contingent upon high school graduation."
Obviously, none of these youngsters has finished high school, so
he does not meet this first criterion for admission in the community
college where the technical and vocational responsibility should be
at the State level.
Chairman PERKINS. And the regular vocational schools over the
country that have technical training for the ordinary youngster, are
overcrowded. They continue to take the cream of the crop, and they
never reach down to the bottom of the barrel or go to the trouble
to train any of these problem children. Am I correct in that statement?
Dr. TEMPLETON. That is correct.
Chairman PERKINS. Has that been your experience over the years?
That is the reason that your particular institution, the Job Corps
centers in Gary and the women's center, are quite different from the
other vocational schools in the area?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Right.
Chairman PERKINS. Now, in connection with the transportation to
some of these skill centers, do you have any views on the effect that
transporting these enrollees to the so-called inner city skill centers will
have on their attendance?
Dr. TEMPLETON. I would think that a careful study needs to be
made of it. I would take the position if I operated one I would try to
make it work. Then I would evaluate all the problems connected with
the transportation. Obviously, this is a problem, the transporting of the
youngsters from their home to the center.
Chairman PERKINS. Now, where they lack motivation, the type of
kid that you have been describing that comes to Gary, what, in your
judgment, will be the effect on this child? Is he going to drop out?
Dr. TEMPLETON. You mean the boy who has dropped out from the
other programs?
Chairman PERKINS. Yes. Would that accelerate the drop-out rate?
Dr. TEMPLETON. I don't know. I, of course, would be interested to
see the results of the program.
Chairman PERKINS. I am just trying to get information from an
expert.
Now, another thing that puzzles me is why transfer after we have
had so much difficulty in getting the program off the ground? It would
appear to me if this program is permitted to be buried in the Depart-
ment of Labor under some assistant secretary away down the line in
charge of other manpower programs, that the specific attention that
the Job Corps deserves, dealing with this youngster at the bottom of
the barrel, we are going to get him lost somewhere along the line and
this program is going to get bogged down.
Now, it appears to me that not only is the program about to be
bogged down but I am afraid this program is going to be abolished
completely.
What is your view on this and what would be your preference?
Dr. TEMPLETON. 1 quite naturally would hate to see the 3,000
youngsters that we have at Gary just turned out without a better
progTam. If there is a~ better program in the country, certainly they
PAGENO="0221"
1653
ought to be in it. I seriously doubt that there is a better one or that you
will develop a better one.
I think it would be rather tragic to deny these youngsters the type
of program that they are experiencing now.
Chairman PERKINS. Now, it has been argued here before the com-
mittee that we oniy have so much money to spend, that we can serve
more youngsters through regular vocational education programs but
are we going to serve this type of youngster that needs, in my judg-
ment, No. 1 priority, or do you agree with that?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Right.
Chairman PERKINS. Can we afford to cut this program back and
take that chance?
Just summarize for me along that line.
Dr. TEMPLETON. Again, I would like to refer to the programs with
which I am the most familiar. I think that the Government's money has
been well spent at Gary. Hopefully, the other Job Corps centers
have done the same. I have not bothered to evaluate other programs.
I have bothered to evaluate this one. I would hate to see the educa-
tional opportunities denied this type of youngster.
I think we need to realize that there are more of these people than
we know about today and the solution is making them productive
and giving them the basic education with which to survive in this
society, and be productive.
I think the Job Corps program or vocational education center,
whatever you want to call it, has provided great opportunities for
the youngsters. I think exhibit A is the number of them that are
productive in society today, who are taxpayers, who are getting along
well with fellow employees and employers, and they are moving up
in the production scale.
So, I think that is evidence enough as to the productivity of this
program.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Esch.
Mr. ESCH. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Dr. Templeton, it is a pleasure to have you with us. We know of the
great success you have had at Gary.
There is one area that I am interested in. I wonder if you could
supply for the record if you don't have it now, and I assume you
don't, the number or the percentage of enrollees that you have had
from large metropolitan centers as opposed to those from other
areas-
Dr. TEMPLETON. I can provide that for you. I don't have it.
Do you want it over a 5-year period?
Mr. ESCH. Yes; please.
Dr. TEMPLETON. Yes.
Mr. ESCH. I would like to have that put in the record if we might.
Also, I would like at the same time to have the number of your
enrollees that were placed in the large metropolitan cities.
I wonder if we could have that.
Dr. TEMPLETON. I will see what our placements show.
Before you came in, I told them about a program that I developed,
a clerical training program that I developed with some insurance
companies. I was amazed to see that the turnover of first-level entry
employees was about 43 percent.
PAGENO="0222"
1654
So, one of your problems in placement, in your followup studies on
placement, so that a Job Corps graduate becomes a citizen. He has
the right to leave one job and go to another. So, one of your problems
is your secondary followup. This has been one of our basic problems.
A lot of these youngsters get a job and then they get another job.
A lot of them get a job in one city and they want to go back home.
So, they wait until they get a job back home and they leave. So,
that secondary followup has been a real problem. It doesn't bother
us if we have taken a youngster with a fifth-grade reading level, if
we have elevated him to high school equivalency level, if we have
given him a skill with which he can provide for himself; then we are
not concerned about what happens to him. We think eventually he
is a better citizen than the fifth-grade level youngster on the streets,
unemployed and getting into trouble.
I will see if I can get you the information. The most effective
would be the secondary place.
Mr. Escu. Do you normally make the initial placement in the
Texas area?
Dr. TEMPLETON. Not necessarily.
Mr. Escu. I would like to see that information for the record to
see if we could see the pattern, where your success lies. I think the
most important question is based on the premise of are we or are
we not serving the large metropolitan centers?
We know that you have been extremely successful and perhaps
there is a pattern of initial placement other than a large metropolitan
center, for: example. Whether, once a person adjusts to the world
of work, then he will be moving back into a metropolitan center, we
don't know.
Dr. TEMPLETON. I said earlier that we have over 307 different
companies requesting people who were trained at Gary. There every
youngster who is trained can go work if he wants to. I would suspect
that after they have been there 6 months and know people and be-
come acclimatized and like the area, that their primary placement is
probably in that area.
But then I suspect that you will find in a short period of time
secondarily they move on back to their city.
I will see what I can come up with for you.
(The information follows:)
TEXAS EDUCATIONAL FOUNDATION, INC.,
San Marcos, Tex., May 12, 1969.
Hon. MARVIN L. ESCH,
Cannon House Office Building,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR CONGRESSMAN ESCH: The following information is submitted in reply to
your question posed to Dr. A. B. Templeton when he appeared before the House
Committee on Education and Labor on May 2, 1969, regarding the percentage of
Gary Job Corps Center enrollees comingfrom "large metropolitan centers" and the
percentage of all Corpsmen being placed in "large metropolitan centers".
We have used the U.S. Census Bureau concept to define "large metropolitan
center" which is a central city which in 1960 had a population in excess of 600,000
in a Standard Metropolitan Area of more than one million. Applying this defirn-
tion, the "large metropolitan centers" used in this report are: Baltimore, Boston,
Chicago, Cleveland, Dallas, Detroit, Houston, Los Angeles, Long Beach, Mu-
waukee, Minneapolis, St. Paul, New Orleans, New York, Philadelphia, Pitts-
burgh, St. Louis, San Francisco, Oakland, and Washington.
PAGENO="0223"
1655
As a sampling for the number of enrollees coming from "large metropolitan
centers," the total Corpsmen population of the Gary Center as of May 8, 1969 was
used, and the placement sampling was the last 1,595 Corpsmen placed by the Gary
Placement Division. The results are as follows:
From a total enrollment of 2,644 Corpsmen, 368 came from "large metro-
politan centers"-a percentage of 13.9.
From a total of 1,595 center placements, 534 were placed in "large metro-
politan centers"-a percentage of 33.5.
We are hopeful the above information adequately answers your question. Please
call on us at any time we may be of further assistance in providing information that
will be helpful to you and the members of the Committee.
Sincerely yours,
0. J. BAKER,
Executive Director.
Mr. ESCH. Thank you very much.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Steiger, do you have any questions?
Mr. STEIGER. No questions at this time, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. Thank you very much for your appearance
here this morning. You have made an excellent witness. You have been
most helpful to the committee. I just wish all of our members could
have heard your statement.
Dr. TEMPLETON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
(Letter to Chairman Perkins with editorials follows:)
TEXAS EDUCATIONAL FOUNDATION, INC.,
San Marcos, Tex., April 17, 1969.
Hon. CARL D. PERKINS,
Chairman, Committee on Education and Labor, House of Representatives, Rayburn
House Office Building, Washington, D.C.
DEAR CONGRESSMAN PERKINS: I believe you will be interested in the San
Marcos Record editorial of Thursday, April 17, 1969, a copy of which is enclosed.
This editorial emphasizes the problem that contractors have with reference to
the many rumors that are being circulated. It is very difficult to maintain good
morale among corpsmembers and the employees working in the Job Corps program
due to the lack of security of the Job Corps.
We know that you are doing everything possible to help solve this problem and
we are deeply grateful for your continued strong support.
Kindest regards,
Sincerely yours,
0. J. BAKER, Executive Director.
P.S.-Also enclosed is a copy of an editorial in the San Antonio Evening News,
Tuesday, April 15, 1969, with reference to Inner-City programs.
[San Marcos Record, Apr. 17, 19691
WASHINGTON RUMOR FACTORY PRODUCING-THE GUESS OF DEATH
While the Nixon administration has not closed Gary Job Corps Center, they
may be coming close to guessing it to death. Status of the Job Corps program
has been in such turmoil in recent weeks, and months, that those involved with
the program can't imagine what will happen next.
Rumors flow freely, and the 3,000 students at the center plus the teachers and
staff have almost given up trying to second-guess the system. The political ball
bounces too fast for anyone to keep up with it.
Such widely-varying reports from Washington have done much to demoralize
the troops. Back when Nixon was campaigning he said he would do away with
the Job Corps. Then he said he wouldn't. Then he said he would transfer the corps
to the Department of Labor. Then in the last month we have read such reports
as these:
WASHINGTON (AP).-A major political battle between the Nixon administration
and Congress is shaping up over the future of the Office of Economic Opportunity
and its antipoverty programs. (March 16)
SAN MARcos.-That the Job Corps program-and particularly Gary Job
Corps Center near here-will not only survive present attacks but will grow
PAGENO="0224"
1656
substantially in years to come was predicted Friday by U.S. Congressman Roman
Pucinski, a man who has a key position in shaping the future of the Job Corps.
(March 22)
WASHINGTON (AP) .-The Labor Department will announce Friday the closing
of some 65 Job Corps centers, a department spokesman said Wednesday night.
(April 10)
WASHINGTON.-III a major shift in the Job Corps program for training poor
youths, the administration will move much of the training dircction to the ghettoes.
(April 11)
AUSTIN.-U.S. Rep. Jake Pickle said Thursday he does not believe the Gary
Job Corps Center at San Marcos is on the list of some 65 centers which the Lab6r
Department plans to close across the nation. (April 11)
Because Gary has proved itself the finest of the Job Corps Centers, and because
such men as Congressmen Pickle and U.S. Senator Ralph Yarborough have
taken much effort to publicize this fact-the future of Gary seems more secure
than ony other Job Corps Center.
But the "what's next" policy in Washington has already dented the future
security of these boys and their instructors. We hope that the rumor factory
will cease production so that Gary can settle back to working toward a bette~r
tomorrow for all concerned.
[San Antonio Evening News, Apr. 15, 19691
EDITORIAL-POVERTY WARRIORS Miss PROPER TARGET IN BATTLE?
The war on poverty in Bexar County-not unlike that in many other places-
puts too much of the fighting among the managers at the expense of the im-
poverished. Inevitably the continuing clashes was bound to lead to suggestions for
change. In the local case, the change is quite drastic.
The regional Office of Economic Opportunity in Austin, frequently trying to
referee the agency rivalries, finally concluded that the Bexar organization should
be reorganized, split in two and given a new dual role for two parts of the com-
munity.
It might work. It would diffuse the rivalry, certainly, and it might be the kind
of shock required to put the battle in better perspective.
An OEO evaluation team criticized many factions of the local poverty war and
called for a major reorganization. Principal stimulus for the conclusions were the
struggles for supremacy between the Economic Opportunities Development
Corporation and SANYO and the Greater San Antonio Federation of Neighbor-
hood Councils.
OEO has suggested forming corporations on the city's west and east sides better
to combat poverty throughout area.
SANYO and the federation claim the formula was advanced to OEO by the
EODC and is a method to reduce its role in the poverty war. The organizations
also claim the evaluation team was under political pressures to arrive at the
conclusion it did.
The comments are examples of the type of poverty war fighting which has been
going on here for months. The OEO team hit on the right conclusion-the need for
major reorganization. The format it takes is irrelevant as long as it is conducive
to fostering the true concepts of the poverty war and that is to provide help for
those who need it.
Chairman PERKINS. Our next witnesses are Dr. David Paynter,
superintendent of schools, Garden Grove Unified School District,
Garden Grove, Calif.; Mr. James Dorland (moderator), associate
director, Division of Adult Education, National Education Associa-
tion, Washington, D .C.; Mr. Robert Nenson, coordinator for second-
ary education, Seattle public schools, Seattle, Wash.; Dr. Carl Hassel,
deputy superintendent of schooLs, Prince Georges County schools,
Upper Marlboro, Md.; and Mrs. Edna Fields, teacher in the District
of Columbia public schools, Washington, D.C.
Come around, as many of you as can. Without objection, the pre-
pared statements of all the panel will be inserted in the record.
You may proceed in any manner you prefer.
PAGENO="0225"
1657
STATEMENTS OP FAMES BORLAND (1\~ODERATOR), ASSOCIATE
DIRECTOR, DIVISION OP ADULT EDUCATION, NATIONAL EDUOA-
TION ASSOCIATION, WASHINGTON, D.C.; MRS. YVON1~E BROWN,
TEACHER, PRINCE GEORGES COUNTY SCHOOLS, UPPER MARL-
BORO, MD.; MRS. EDNA FIELDS, TEACHER, DISTRICT OP COLUMBIA
PUBLIC SCHOOLS, WASHINGTON, D.C.; ROBERT BRIDGEMAN,
TEACHER, HAYWOOD C. CONSOLIDATED SCHOOLS, WAYNESVILLE,
N.C.; AND OLENA PROPPITT, TEACHER, CARTER COUNTY SCHOOL
SYSTEM, ELIZABETHTON, TENN.
Mr. DORLAND. With your permission, we are going to have our
teachers up here first.
We represent Project Interchange, which has been a project jointly
administered by the NEA and OEO over the last 3 years, in which we
have supplied public school teachers for Job Corps centers.
We have some teachers here who have had and are now having
experiences in Job Corps centers as actual teachers on leave of absence
from their public school positions.
Then we have several administrators who are actually in charge of
programs now that are putting into the public school some of the
things they have learned from the Job Corps.
I would like our four teachers here to introduce themselves. We
have all of our teachers up here now.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead and identify yourselves for the record.
Mrs. BROWN. I am Yvonne Brown, an elementary teacher in Prince
Georges County.
There was a little mixup in the record this morning. I am in Prince
Georges County, working in the Marlow Heights area. We also have
another Miss Yvonne Brown, and she was also called this morning,
but she is a teacher's aide. So I know there is a mixup in the record
there. She is a teacher's aide and I am a teacher in Prince Georges
County.
I worked in Project Interchange during the year 1967-68. I started
my work at Liberty Park Conservation Center in Jersey City, N.J.
This center was closed in March 1968. I was transferred to Harpers
Ferry, W. Va., to the Harpers Ferry Civilian Conservation Center
there. I am presently back in my school system in Prince Georges
County.
I would like to submit written testimony if I may.
(The document referred to follows:)
PREPARED TESTIMONY OF YVONNE H. BROWN, TEACHER, PROJECT INTERCHANGE,
PRINCE GEORGES COUNTY, MD.
Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am Yvonne H. Brown; an
elementary school teacher from the Prince George's County Public Schools. I was
a twelve month Project Interchange teacher during the year 1967 through 1968.
I served at two centers, one at Liberty Park Conservation Center in Jersey City,
New Jersey, and the other at the Harpers Ferry Civilian Conservation Center
in Harpers Ferry, West Virginia.
My major jobs were to teach reading and Language Study Skills, however many
times I was also involved with helping to develop healthy work attitudes through
the Job Corps World of Work (WO) program.
My life as a Project Interchange teacher was almost a 24 hour way of life. I
cannot say it was a job or a task because my life was too filled with successful
27-754-69-pt. 3-15
PAGENO="0226"
1658
happinesses to be bored. Many times I ate with the corpsmen, I talked, laughed,
listened and advised the corpsmen just through the media of a normal conversa-
tion. I read letters to them, I wrote letters for them, and even had my share of
filling out catalog order forms for them.
My grandest experience was being able to work in an educational program
that was completely individualized and aimed to show successes through concise,
but comprehensive progress checks. This type of program is every classroom
teacher's dream. We dream of meeting the academic needs of each student we
teach. We dream of the 14 to 1 student-teacher ratio that is a working success
in the Job Corps. We relish the thought of worthwhile community volunteers
and aides that are provided in Job Corps. The teacher can give special assistance
to students having special difficulties while the corpsman aide continues helping
the remaining group of working corpsmen. In the public schools this is impossible
because there are no aides in the regular classroom.
I can see the Job Corps program being brought right into a special type of
classroom to work with a special type of student. I can see that student being one
that has been carefully selected because he wants to learn and better himself
although he or she is drastically behind in his work or will to retain. His retention
probably would have stemmed from the fact that he is an underachiever or is
unable to adjust to the normal classroom situation. This is not a program for the
retarded or the handicapped, but instead for those persons that can and show a
desire to better their learning and earnings for the future.
I can see a counseling program being implemented in the elementary schools.
We have been too long tuned in to counseling in the Junior and Senior high
schools, but many of our problems can be solved at much earlier ages. These
children with problems can be identified in the elementary school and be given
"on the spot" help. With professional assistance the Job Corps teacher returning
to her system could set up a counseling program within her own school. In Job
Corps each worker is also a êounselor, with an assigned group of corpsmen. Even
the secretaries and work leaders are counselors, for you do not have to be a teacher
or a counselor to be interested in the progress of a person. In this way a young
man knows that he had someone special that cares about his progress.
I would like to conclude by saying that because of my Project Interchange
Job Corps experience, I am now able to identify those individuals that show
characteristic qualities of the potential drop-out. I can see definite flashing signs
even in elementary school. But, it took Job Corps training before I was able to
read those signals and put meanings to them, then plan a way to attack the signa
that I had seen.
Project Interchange then, in my opinion, is a most urgently worthwhile pre-
gram that feeds back into the public school systems jewels in the form of pre-
cious teachers. I would like to see our systems reorganize their present programs
for the underachiever, for the culturally, socially and academically disadvantaged
students. Too many of our children have outstretched ears that cannot be reached
by traditional methods.
The crippling or death of Project Interchange and the Job Corps can mean a
drastic blow to our inevitably changing public school education.
Mrs. FIELDS. I am Edna Fields, presently on leave from the
District of Columbia school system, starting January 24, 1969, and
going through January 24, 1970.
I am presently teaching reading at the South Weiffleet Job Corps
Center in South Welifleet, Mass.
My first e~perience with Project Interchange was last summer
when I spent a week at East Tennessee State University preparing
for an 8-week exchange teacher experience. I was sent to the Clam
Lake Corps Center in Clam Lake, Wis. On February 10, 1969, I re-
ported to the South Weiffleet Job Corps Center in South Welffleet~
Mass. for a year, where I hope to remain until January 24, 1970.
(Mrs. Fields' prepared statement follows:)
PREPARED STATEMENT OF EDNA R. FIEr~ns
Members of the committee, the Citizens of the state of Massachusetts, especially
those living in Chatham, Orleans, Provincetown, Hyannis and Estham request
the continuance of the South Weiffleet Job Corps Civilian Conservation Center
based on the following facts.
PAGENO="0227"
1659
Purpose:
The original purpose of the inception of Job Corps was to take young men and
women, 16 to 22 years of age, whose education had not qualified them for meaning-
ful employment.
The aim of the Corps is to equip those young people with skills which, if properly
implemented will lead to jobs. It is to be hoped that these jobs will provide them
with an adequate living income. The Corps may be the starting point for develop-
ing the initiative for higher education and for more gainful employment.
The South Welifleet Corps is currently composed of 85% Black, 10% Spanish
speaking and 5 % White. These young men come from socio-economic backgrounds
which deprived them of basic skills necessary for obtaining and keeping jobs.
The Staff has feverently devoted itself for the four years to the teaching of these
needed skills and bolstering of the confidence of these young men in their ability
to succeed.
The Corps, in spite of its limitations, is performing a vital service for the nation
in preparing young people to enter the World of Work.
All of the young people in Job Corps are not necessarily the victims of deprived
circumstances. Some of them have benefitted by the less traditional school atmos-
phere offered by the Job Corps Program.
Miss PROFFITT. I am Olena Proffitt from Tennessee. I worked at
Jacob's Creek Center last summer. For the past few years, I have been
working with the Teacher Corps as a team leader.
Mr. BRIDGEMAN. I am Robert Bridgeman, teacher of vocational
education in the field of technical drafting and carpentry.
I served last summer at Oconalufey Job Corps Center in Cherokee,
N.C. I am at the present time employed at Pisgah Senior High School,
Canton, N.C.
Mr. DORLAND. I would like to have the teachers quite briefly tell
us what the Job Corps experience meant to them and what sort of
feedback there has been into the on-going public school system.
Mrs. BROWN. As I began the last time, I started in Jersey City at
the men's center there which was Liberty Park Conservation Center.
I was terribly shocked at the closing of this particular center. It was
shocking in the sense that the Corpsmen that we worked with were
using the Job Corps and were utilizing the Job Corps as a way of
changing their lives, changing the habits and the understandings that
they had always been accustomed to and they were thrown into a
situation where they had to reevaluate and they had to make other
decisions for themselves.
Many of them did transfer or were transferred to other centers but
many of them went back to the streets of Jersey City, to New York,
to Harlem, and so forth, and, as far as we know, they were lost. I
guess there were no followups on them.
My experience as a Project Interchange teacher was, I think, the
highlight of my teaching experience. I volunteered in the summer of
1967 to work with the Project Interchange. I was very apprehensive,
as I think a lot of the teachers were, because I did not especially know
all of the things that would be involved in Project Interchange, in
working with the youngster from 16 to 21. I am an elementary school
major and elementary schoolteacher, and my experience has been
with very young children, and I did not know exactly how I would be
taken by this young man and I did not know how well I would work
with him.
The only thing I knew was that I wanted to help in some way and
this is the way I could help.
The center that I was first placed in needed me so badly that I
was kind of spread out into many of the areas in which many people
PAGENO="0228"
1660
don't get a chance to work in. I did not have an orientation session
but there were aids and helpers that were sent in, consultants, I
guess they were called, from McGraw-Hill, and they introduced the
program to me, and with my educational backg~'ound I was able to
help carry on the program.
I taught beginning reading-when I say beginning reading, the
first letter, the first sound-to young men up to the precollege level.
This was the range of the reading that I worked in.
I also taught the language study skills and I even worked in the
world of work program which was trying to help develop healthy
working attitudes such as getting up in the morning, knowing the
purpose of doing this and why it should be done which was one of
the characteristics of this type of youngster.
In my written testimony, I mentioned some of the small things, the
very significant things that were experienced, such as reading a letter
that has been written, a letter from an aunt or uncle or a girl friend,
maybe; writing a letter back home or writing a letter to a girl friend,
making out catalog orders for presents and things that the young men
wanted for their wives and their children, because some of them were
married and some of them had children.
These are some of the small things that were done.
I learned many things. I also included in my written testimony the
fact that this was the very first time in which I was able to work in a
program that was completely individualized. When I say individual-
ized, that each person worked at his own level, at his own speed and
Was not pushed. He competed with himself. Now', this is the dream
of every teacher that I have ever met and I would suppose every
teacher that has ever had any experience with people on different
levels.
No two children come in to any one room or any one building or
any new one grade who have the same need. But in our present public
school system we are not able to cope with these problems and these
individualities and differences. But in Job Corps, the program has
been set up so that we almost know immediately through Job Corps
tests where the student is, where we can help him, where he needs the
help, what level he is on, and he begins immediately.
They come in with an urgent desire to want to learn. I had one
young man at Liberty Park that came in and said-I was Miss Hasty
at the time-"Miss Hasty, if you can teach me the signs on the sub-
way, how to read the signs, how to read the signs on the buses, how
to read street signs, then I would not be embarrassed when I get
ready to take my girl to the movie. Instead of asking her to read the
signs for me, I can read them myself." He was there 6 weeks.
The center closed and lie was back on the street again. He did not
learn how to read the signs.
The teacher is able to give each individual corpsman special assist-
ance built into our program is the allowance for community volunteers
and community volunteers are one of the main things that I think each
center worked toward because the more we can involve the community
the more we understand our problems and want to help.
The centers encourage more men aides because once the Corps-
men have been in the system, they have worked in the system, they
have attained levels of achievement, then they can help fellow corps-
PAGENO="0229"
1661
men who are lower than they are and who are trying to achieve the
same level. So they are very effective in helping.
Now I am going back in the public school system in Prince Georges
County. I have brought back with me numerous experiences, experi-
ences that I will be talking about for the rest of my life. My experience
has enabled me to identify in the early elementary school persons
with the very characteristics that I saw in Job Corps that were synony-
mous to the Job Corpsmen. To me, this is astounding.
I have been able to visit classrooms, kindergarten, first grade,
second grade, up through sixth grade, and invariably during my
visitations, during my observations on the playground, in the lunch-
room, I can pick out signs and characteristics of the things that I
had seen which were qualities of the potential dropout. I could not
do this before my Job Corps experience.
I knew the children had problems but I could not put meanings to
those problems. I could not give an answer to why can't this child
sit down and learn the way the other children do. This is one of the
characteristics, the very fact they cannot be still.
We are not able to help the youngster in the regular classroom,
mainly because so many of the teachers do not understand. We do
not have the equipment; we do not know what type of equipment to
use, what type of material, what methods, what techniques.
But that is, due to my experience I have been able to utilize many
of the materials, the techniques, the understanding that I was able
to learn through Job Corps. I did not learn these in my methods
classes in college. I did not learn them through my in-service training
in the county and in other places, but I did learn them through
project interchange and through my Job Corps experience.
I can see that through experience our young men and young women
will be drastically disabled, if some of our centers are allowed to close.
I certainly hope that in some way we can convince them that they
are badly needed.
Thank you.
Mr. DORLAND. Mrs. Fields, you are teaching at a center now.
Would you tell us something about your experience?
Mrs. FIELDS. My experiences at the Job Corps center, located in
South Wellfieet, Mass., has been one of heart warming, and it was a
tragedy when we were informed of the news of the closing of the Job
Corps center while our director, Mr. Charles Forbes, was here in
Washington, D.C.
We got the news through a communication media of television and
radio. Of course, ours is not a large center. Our center is what you
would refer to as a 100-man center. And because it is of this small
number, we know each other very personally. There were men who
came to Wellfieet whose dental, physical, psychological and other
total personality complexes were totally destroyed, but with proper
medication, testing, remedial treatment, convalescence, food and all
of these things that go to make up the whole person, these men were
beginning to see the light.
iViost of our corpsmen are from the South, from New York, some
from New Jersey, and some, of course, are from Maine. But the two
corpsmen that were most heart warming to me were two men who
came from Roxbury, Mass.
PAGENO="0230"
1662
Most of you are familiar with the situation, the social, economic,
miucationally deprived situation that exists in these areas, that the
sociologists have called ghettos. These two men, after several days
of gettmg to know each other and because I lived on the base, I
did know them very well. One weekend they invited me to visit them
em their community.
By way of records I found that upon entering and being tested
by the tests that are given the entering Job Corpsmen, along with
the physical examination, and he is given a mental examination
for placement, I found that these men were definitely reading below
any conceivable, measurable, comparable area that we have in the
public school system.
So what happened was these men were given special attention in their
reading and as Mrs. Brown has said, because we do have a large
number of volunteers, retired people, people who are not employed,
housewives, so to speak, who do not have to go to work, these people
have organized themselves into a group, and they are with us daily.
I daresay that in count we have over 100 volunteers there at Well-
fleet that report daily. I was planning to come home for Easter, but
there were circumstances that prevented it. My check came late, and I
couldn't leave until after I got mycheek. So Iwas thereon the Thursday
when our center director returned to the center.
I am incapable of describing to you how the closing news aflected
our center. Even though most of us take for granted a clean bed, a
decent education, a place to call home, some form of recreation, some
spiritual outlet, if we are so inclined, these things are more or less not
the innate possessions of those men, young men and young women,
who come to us in Job Corps. Once these things are more or less in-
corporated into this individual that we call a complex or personality,
and this per~on along with this is learning math, he is learning work, he
is learning skills at work, and he is learning reading. And all of a sudden
he is told that that future that he is looking forward to, he is going to
go to an urban center, he is going to get an exposure. He is going to
do what he can do while he can do it, and all of a sudden he is told
that after July 1, we don't know what is going to happen to you.
I come, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Congress, to ask if it is at
all possible, if it is at all possible that these young men at Wellfieet be
given a chance to fulfill the potential which they are capable of ful-
filling.
Mr. DORLAND. Mrs. Proffitt, tell us some of the things about your
experiences.
Mrs. PROFFITT. Last summer when I taught at Jacob's Creek Job
Corps Center, I was present at a number of the things. One of the
things that I particularly liked was that at 5 minutes after the bell
rang, each and every corpsman was in his seat working and studying
on his own level. -
He could have had a ten-minute break at the end of that period, but
so often he was so interested in what he was doing that he didn't want
to take a 10-minute break.
Another thing that interested me so much was that we had several
boys who entered this center who were unable to read or write, and
yet 8 months later, after they had worked learning a trade, such as
driving heavy equipment or whatnot, they. were able to read on fourth
or fifth grade levels.
PAGENO="0231"
1663
Our big public schools just aren't equipped to do this kind of thing.
I was very impressed by the dedication of the teachers in these centers.
It was so good to see someone who was interested in teaching the
underachiever and the disadvantaged child. It was just so good to
see them give praise to this kind of work.
Now that I am helping to train teachers in the Teacher Corps, I am
able to use that kind of training that I received by working at the Job
Corps center.
Mr. DORLAND. Mr. Bridgeman, you were there last summer and
it is often said that young men at the level that have been in the
conservation centers can't be taught saleable skills so that in a sense
it is a nice experience, but they don't have anything that they can do
when they go back home.
Did you have any experiences in working with them in occupational
`training?
Mr. BRIDGEMAN. I was sent to the center as a vocational teacher in
*the field of carpentry. I would like to attack this thing from a different
:angle, from this angle that the ladies are working on.
Chairman PERKINS. Are you with the NEA?
Mr. BRIDGEMAN. No.
Chairman PERKINS. What public school system?
Mr. BRIDGEMAN. I am a public school teacher in vocational educa-
tion, teaching drafting and carpentry at the senior high school. I am
employed by a public high school now. In fact, when I was sent to the
Job Corps center, I couldn't care less for a corpsman. In fact, I didn't
`know anything about a corpsman.
I had read a lot about him and most of it was bad, because that is
usually what gets into the newspapers; not the good, but the bad. I was
`sent to this Job Corps center as a vocational teacher in carpentry.
After arriving there and talking to the man in charge, I felt like I
was riding a two-headed horse. The OEO wanted me to teach the
corpsmen, the Department of Interior wanted me to build a house.
I said, "Do you have a crew of men that I am supposed to build this
house with?" We will supply you with the corpsmen. All right. Can
they read a rule? That was my first question.
They kind of laughed and said they can't even read or write, much
less read a rule. All right. This was my problem. I had two houses to
build and I had around 30 corpsmen.
I had to do this job in my short time that I was connected in the
summe~' session, 9 weeks. I don't know, Mr. Chairman, if you have ever
built a house before. It is a problem.
Chairman PERKINS. Let me say that I have helped.
Mr. BRIDGEMAN. You know that you have to start from the
foundation up. The first thing you do when you build a house is dig
the foundation. On a Job Corps center, a pick and shovel is what we
dug the foundation with.
The last gentleman here spoke of discipline problems. You were
Rsking questions along those lines. I would like to speak along those
lines of discipline.
It is hard to motivate a boy to a pick and shovel on the foundation
of a house in a hot mountainous area of North Carolina, especially
when you are in the bottom land. This is a problem. But we dug that
foundation. We poured the foundation and we put that house in the
`dry in 9 ~reeks.
PAGENO="0232"
1664
If you don't know what putting the house "in the dry" means we
put the shingles on it. We had a lot of problems doing it. It wasn't
all gravy, because, like I said, motivation is your problem.
I am a teacher. And I am a darned good teacher, I believe. To take
a boy that can't read or write and can't read a rule and to help you
build a house, this was-I was frustrated. When you say, "Pick up
that board, Henry," he can pick it up and I was surprised he didn't
know where to put it. I had to tell him to pick it up, walk over here
and lay it down here.
Most of the time on- a job in the summertime, I am a contractor,
and your men anticipate what you are going to do. If you reach for
a hammer, he knows where you are going to drive the nail and he
knows where to hold the board. But this was a problem for me.
This discipline problem, the first thing that hit me. We had just
poured the foundation and it started to rain. We were covering up
the foundation. I said, "Pick up the plywood and cover the wet con-
crete up so it won't be ruined." I was a teacher and this corpsman
looked at me. He has a board in his hand and he says, "Nobody,
especially a SOB teacher, tells me where to lay a board." I looked at
him and I said, "I haven't bad-mouthed you, son," and I said, "If
you don't lay that board down on that foundation, I am going up
the side of your head with a g-d rock."
This boy looked at me, with a kind of strange look on his face, I
believe it was the first time he had ever been challenged and he laid
it down. But in the 9 weeks that I was there, this boy developed into
one of the best corpsmen I had. He earned his blue hat before I left.
This means he was a corpsman leader.
This is a great compliment to this boy. You always like to tell the
good things and this boy at the present time, he has left the Job
Corps, he is married, he is living in Knoxville and he had a good job.
This means a lot to me, because I could have, when he cursed
me on the job, terminated this young man. I could have thrown
him out of the Job Corps. But I was only there for 9 weeks. And I
felt that my job was to develop this young man and put him back on
the street with more than what he came to the Job Corps with.
This is our problem. I would like to say just one thing. Most of
the boys that come to the Job Corps center, the ones that I was
located at, the first thing we do is search them and we come up with
a knife, a chain, a weapon. All of them have got a weapon, because
they can't face society without a weapon, because this is the only
thing they know.
But invariably, if a boy stays-I am not saying the Job Corps
does this-on this Job Corps center, like I say, for over 30 days,
most of* the time when he leaves there, he doesn't ask for his knife
back. But if he leaves before this period, he usually asks for his
knife back.
I don't know if this means anything or not, but it does to me.
In the 9 weeks that I was there, we put two houses in the dry,
we set up a campground area and built two restrooms. We also worked
on a project building a 9-mile road into the mountains to another
campground.
If we don't teach these boys anything, at this Job Corps Center,
they know how to work, they know how to appreciate a day's work,
PAGENO="0233"
1665
and I think that if the Job Corps is closed down or shut down. I think
we are missing the boat. I think the loser will be the boy. I think we
have handed him the wrong end of the stick if we close this down.
That ~s all I have.
Mr. DORLAND. Mr. Chairman, these are typical teachers of the
several hundred that we have involved in Job Corps Centers over the
last several years. We are continuing this inner change, because we see
that the public schools have something to offer. They have good
teachers to provide to Centers; 80 percent of our costs have been for
teachers' salaries in Centers.
It would be tragic if it would stop here, that we just had good
teachers. We think we have a responsibility to go to school systems and
have the school systems put into operation the things that we are
learning in the Centers, because ultimately we would hope that we
could phase out Job Corps Centers because we have no longer the
problem.
We don't mean to phase them out because we just want to close
them. I have several administrators with me, who I wish could speak.
Chairman PERKINS. I would like to ask you one question before the
teachers all leave the table.
The experiences that you have gained and the special training and
techniques and materials that are necessary to train this problem
youngster that we dea1~with in the Job Corps-tell the committee
whether you feel we will lose to a great degree that know-how and
knowledge if we bury this Job Corps in the Department of Labor and
permit it to be abolished within a period of time.
We have made the first step to abolish the Job Corps, if we permit
this proposal to go into effect of the Secretary of Labor will all of
this experience be preserved or will it be lost somewhere along the
line? What is your judgment?
Mr. DORLAND. Based on the things that I have been able to learn,
I am not certain what the plans are for preserving the knowledge.
I can't comment on the mini-centers other than what I have read of
the plans in the papers.
I guess our primary concern now is the youngster who is in the
Center and where he will go.
Chairman PERKINS. Is the ordinary schoolteacher equipped to
teach the type of youngster that the Job Corps serves? You can answer
that. Or does it take a special training and knowledge to teach this
youngster?
Mr. DORLAND. I taught high school for 13 years. I was not equipped
to handle this kind of youngster. I didn't have that sort of training,
sort of motivation, that kind of equipment, mental or physical. And
in the last 3 years literally the many Job Corps centers I have seen, I
just wish I had a chance to go back into the public school classroom
and do some things differently.
These people are now teachers on the firing line. They could respond
better than I could.
Chairman PERKINS. I would like to hear the comments of the panel
on this.
J\~Ir. BRIDGEMAN. I have had 16 years of schoolteaching in the
public schools. Last summer was the most experiencing teaching
situation that I have ever come up against. You say can any teacher
out of the public schools teach a Job Corpsman and no-
PAGENO="0234"
1666
Chairman PERKINS. It takes special training?
Mr. BRIDGEMAN. I don't know about special training. It takes a
special individual. Here is a person everybody has given up on and it
is just like the man said, it is at the bottom of the barrel and this takes
an individual with a dedication.
Not every schoolteacher can teach a Job Corpsman.
Chairman PERKINS. Would you care to comment?
Mrs. PROFFITT. I have taught 25 years. Oftentimes when I would
see a disadvantaged child or underachiever in my classroom, I would
become quite concerned because I didn't have the equipment. I didn't
have the program material to teach that child that needed help s~
badly.
But I think that one of the things that I like at Jacob's Creek was
the team teaching effort that we had there. All of the teachers were
interested in each and every corpsman. From there we could program
material. If the teacher is dedicated and really sincere, the teacher can
teach in the Job Corps centers.
Chairman PERKINS. Would you care to comment?
i\'lrs. FIELDS. Mr. Chairman, I agree wholeheartedly that it takes a~
person that is more or less born to teach with a high dedication and one
who can observe this individual from all of the aspects of his depriva-
tion, of society in which he has tried to manipulate and, irrespective of
training, I consider myself as being exceptionally prepared.
I came from Howard LTniversity to here. I am a product of the
District school system. I have gone into in-service training. I have even
had one of these NDEA's that the Federal Government offers. But I
never knew that one individual or two individuals could be so vital
and so important.
I am sold on the Job Corps. I am sold on the dedication of the type
of person because not anybody, but with the special training, with
available material, with results almost immediately because by the
time they get to Job Corps they have settled down. They are competing
only with themselves.
So I would say that the teacher training program such as Interchange
has made it possible, and it is one of the most vital parts of the program.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead.
Mrs. BROWN. To answer your question, Mr. Chairman, no, I don't
think that all teachers are able to handle this type of young man or
young woman. It takes a type of personality to work with this type of
youngster. Each person does not have this particular quality, but this
person may have the very qualities that an average student or an
above-average student might need. He might have the type of under-
standing that a person from a normal social climate or from a normal
economic home or community might have.
But the Job Corps teacher and all of the workers, not just the teach-
ers, but all of the workers that are working with Job Corps individuals.
have a special quality that they show and that comes out immediately.
The corpsmen, you know, put you through a test. They put teachers
through tests. They put new corpsmen through tests. They put
visitors through tests. They know and they have been accustomed
to picking you apart and finding out what you are really made of.
Believe me, with some of the teachers, they themselves for the
first time discovered themselves when they started working with the
PAGENO="0235"
1667
corpsmen in Job Corps. They immediately test you through conversa~
tion and through observation,. They know right away whether you
are real with them or not.
They know. This is just something that has come about, I guess,
through their social adjustments, that they have learned how to do
this.
Chairman PERKINS. Through the Project Interchange, you had
experience teaching in the public schools, vocational schools and the
Job Corps. Tell me whether the regular public elementary, secondary
schools and our regular vocational schools, are equipped to teach the
type of youngster that the Job Corps presently serves.
Now I would like to hear you comment briefly, the panel, on that
one question.
Mr. BRIDGEMAN. At the present time, I am teaching a night course
in vocational education for adults. For a Job Corpsman, he wouldn't
fit into this. In public schools I don't see how he could possibly fit into
this.
When I say "boy," you take a man and place him in a public school,
a man of the street, and like I say, I was a child walking into this, a
boy that still is picking the buckshot out of his arm from a robbery,
had three cases of gonorrhea and two or three cases of syphilis and
things like this, and how can you place him in a public school system?
The ordinary teacher in a public school system cannot cope with
this type of thing.
Mrs. PROFFITT. That is one reason we have so many people who
belong in the Job Corps. Our public school system has failed. I know
it is not altogether the fault of the public school, because the teachers
are overloaded and they don't have the equipment and materials. But
I think the Job Corps does the job better.
Mrs. FIELDS. My experience has been that with my 14 years in
the public schools, teaching somewhat people who were similarly
classified and socially and economically deprived-by the way Mr.
Chairman, I work out of the Model School Division, the one that is
at the far Northwest. I am at the Banniker High School, which is the
Cardozo Center, in that area, so you know something about the general
geographical location and the problems that relate in that particular
location.
And I find that as has already been said or implied by some of my
colleagues, that we are trained and our teacher training is geared for
the ordinary person. The Job Corps person is ordinary, but extraor-
dinary in that there are so many of the Job Corps personnel who
leave school for some reasons before they reach a level where they are
capable, able and motivated to learn.
So I don't think the public school in its concept of education exactly
had the Job Corps type of personnel in mind and, therefore, the
training is limited, if there is any training that would prepare one to
teach on the Job Corps level.
Mrs. BROWN. The public schools are not equipped to handle this
type of young man, or young woman, because their total lives must be
affected. The people in public schools, the teachers, the principals
and the people that work with them, can only affect just a small
portion of their lives and we know from listening to the gentleman
before us, the speaker before us, that a total makeup of a total body
has to learn, not just his brain.
PAGENO="0236"
1668
If he is sitting there with a toothache or if he is sitting there hungry
and there is nothing that we can do for him, public schools are just
not set up to handle the problems that a youngster of this type has.
If he has slept with his clothes on all night, his body in certain parts
are irritated, what can we do in the public school? We can't do any-
Thing for him.
In Job Corps, he learns the social part, he gets the clean clothes, the
baths, the attention and he knows how to get up in the morning
because somebody is there to help him learn this. At home, he doesn't.
I cannot see how public schools could help this type of youngster,
because in public schools we *are working with the normal or the
average, the people at home that help to carry out the parts of the
young life that we think as normal. This is not a normal situation.
Mr. DORLAND. We are not insensitive to what we are saying. What
is being said is that the public school system hasn't been necessarily
responsive to the needs of these young men and women. We have with
us some administrators who are trying to change the system and
we have some pretty exciting projects, we think, which we have got
going because we have tried to take the good things that we* have
found in Job Corps and are trying to pump them into the regular
system.
If we could, we would like to get the statements from our adminis-
trators who are here.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Quie?
Mr. QuIE. I will wait
A PANEL CONSISTING OF JAMES DORLAND, ASSOCIATE DLRECTOR,
DIVISION OF ADULT EDUCATION, NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSO-
CIATION; DR. CARL MINICH, COORDINATOR, PROJECT INTER-
CHANGE, NEA; DR. DAVID PAYNTER, SUPERINTENDENT OF
SCHOOLS, GARDEN GROVE, CALIF.; FRED BREIT, SEATTLE PUBLIC
SCHOOLS, SEATTLE, WASH.; ROBERT NELSON, DIRECTOR OF CUR-
RICULUM, SEATTLE PUBLIC SCHOOLS, SEATTLE, WASH.; DR. CARL
HASSEL, DEPUTY SUPERINTENDENT OF SCHOOLS, PRINCE
GEORGES COUNTY SCHOOLS, UPPER MARLBORO, MD.
Dr. DORLAND. It might not be psychological to have the Indians
and the chiefs divided. I am not sure which are which, but these are
the administrators, and we have them on my far right: Dr. Carl
Minich, who is the coordinator of Project Interchange for the past
3 years; to my immediate right is Dr. David Paynter, who is from
the Garden Grove school system in California, superintendent of
schools, and has a long involvement in Job Corps work; to my left
here is Mr. Fred Breit from Seattle public schools, deputy superintend-~
eat; and the one past him is Robert Nelson, who is the director of
curriculum in the Seattle schools and has been very closely connected
with Project Interchange; and in the middle is Dr. Carl Hassel, Prince
Georges County, deputy superintendent there.
I think I would like Dr. Paynter to ma.ke the initial statement,
because he is operating under some time constraints that the others
of us aren't.
PAGENO="0237"
1669
Dr. PAYNTER. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, it is
an honor to make a statement before this committee. I have a great
interest in the Job Corps program, especially as it relates to the public
schools.
I was involved in the early stages of the Jobs Corps and director of
the conservation center program during 1965. My reason for being in-
volved was, first, I was asked, I guess. That was one reason. But the
other was that I felt that much could be learned from a service to
Job Corps for public education. I have stayed very close to Job Corps,.
followed it, and have been involved in Project Interchange, that which
was spoken of earlier, and have been well aware of what is going on.
Since coming to Washington yesterday, I have been greatly con-
cerned at the apparent political expediency relative to the Job Corps
program. I did not intend to speak to the closing of the centers, but
as a school superintendent I can't help but be deeply concerned about
this, especially in light of some of the alternatives that have been
presented.
First, I would like to say that the closing of centers reduces the
opportunity of many teachers in public schools from working with Job
Corpsmen, even on an informal basis. Being from the Los Angeles area,.
we have sent our teachers, some of them, to the Finner Camp and~
they have learned a great deal on how to deal with boys that are
having problems and are dropouts.
Second, I think the effectiveness of the program you are hearing
about this morning-Project Interchange-is definitely reduced as
fewer locations for establishing exchange teacher experiences are
available.
Third, I think the alternative offered by the Labor Department,. the
Secretary of the Department, of opening up urban skifi centers, ap-
pears to me to superimpose another school system throughout our
country. A vocational training system, if you will, operated by other
than the local school system, with its local control, meeting local
needs. The local school system has been the bulwark of the American
democracy and another system which will not meet the residential
needs of the Job Corpsman does not appear to me to be the answer.
Chairman PERKINS. Amplify that just a little to make sure I under-
stand, that they are not going to depend upon the regular vocational
people but they are going to recruit from private agencies to do the
training. Is that what you anticipate?
Dr. PAYNTER. Mr. Chairman, my understanding of the proposed
program of the Secretary is that of urban skill centers. I have not all
the information, but if I am correct in this, I think that basically it
will be not training centers nor education centers, per se. They will
work together in a vocational sense.
As I understand, Ira Goldenberg spoke to the committee yesterday.
The emphasis is on sensitivity training and this approach to education.
However, it appears to me it would be a superimposing of a system
controlled by the Labor Department in some degree in conffict with
the education system, certainly not under the control of the public
school system, which I think is a vital need, that they be lOcally con-
trolled, locally voiced with the voice of the community heard in terms
of the local needs.
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1670
Mr. STErnER. Would the chairman yield?
Chairman PERKINS. Yes.
Mr. STEIGER. I am a little bit confused by what you have just said,
Dr. Paynter. You are saying that these should be locally controlled
and the local school systems ought to be deeply involved. Are the Job
Corps centers locally controlled?
Dr. PAYNTER. I think if I went on and completed my statement,
some of this would clear up. I think there is a difference between a
residential program, which I believe is essential, the Job Corps pro-
gram is quite different than I understand an urban skill center to be.
A residential program could not be handled by a local school system.
However, I do believe that vocational centers such as have been
established m Torrance, Calif., combining some nine school districts
handling this problem are able to handle the specific vocational prob-
lems of an urban community.
Mr. STEIGER. You are aware, are you not, that the training, for
example, at the New Haven Center is given at all local schools?
Dr. PAYNTER. It is my understanding that the training is a combina-
tion of the NEA program. In fact, I don't think the Labor Department
has made it clear how it is to be done. I think they are using this as
a possible model, but they have never made a statement this is what
it is to be, at least to my knowledge.
If 1 have my information correct, the training program is to be the
Manpower Development Training Act, This is under the Labor
Department, a quasi-cooperation with the public schools or public
agencies.
The NYC program, which frequently is cooperation with the
schools, although certainly not under the control of the schools and
then possibly the use of the public schools where education is re-
quired.
1 don't believe that most of these boys or girls who have failed
in the public schools are going to return to the public schools. They
have failed there. They don't find success there. So 1 think what
we are doing is superimposing another education system.
Mr. STEIGER. 1 regret that you were not here yesterday, because
1 think if you would review the transcript of the hearing and Dr.
Goldenberg's testimony, you would have found that one of the
things that they were most emphatic about was the attempt and
successful attempt to motivate the young men at the New Haven
Center to return to the public school system, to get their degree.
Dr. PAYNTER. It is fine after the program is over for them to
return. This is the same thing that Job Corps actually is doing hope-
fully. They are rettiniing to the public schools.
Mr. STEIGER. No, they are going at the same time that they are
resident~. They are being in-residence at the New Haven Center.
They then are at school.
Dr. PAYNTER. I think few of them will have that capabthty but
this is my opinion.
Mr. STEIGER. This is what confuses me about what you have said
as to your own particular view.
Chairman PERKINS. You are going to have all the chance m the
world to question him. I think his statement is clear as a crystal. I
think this is a good statement. Let him make himself clear as he is
PAGENO="0239"
1671
doing. I appreciate your interrogating him, but you will have all the
opportunity just a little later. I want to hear this good statement
completed.
Go ahead.
Dr. PAYNTER. The item of concern I would have, and that I think
is most important of all is that boys and girls will lose an opportunity
to succeed in society. Somewhat in answer to the original question or
interrogation, I would say this: That the public schools cannot meet
the needs of the boys now in Job Corps.
In 1968, in the conservation centers, 32 percent of the boys were
nonreaders. This is below the third grade, 70 percent of the boys were
beginning to read, or less than fourth grade. This concludes they would
be under less than fourth grade reading ability. Ninety-five percent
were functionally illiterate, either could not read or bilingual or in
some way couldn't use the information that they had. Only 4.6 per-
cent of the boys in Job Corps in 1968 in conservation centers were
literate.
This kind of boy, I present to you, his needs cannot be met in the
public schools nor do I think they can be met under a related pro-
gram, whether it be urban center program or whatever it is. We are
not equipped to meet the needs of the public school of the boy who
is classified basically as third grade or less and 16 years to 21 years
of age. We just don't have that kind of equipment. The public schools
can be helped, though, through Job Corps, through Proj ect Inter-
change, which I think you have been hearing about this morning in
quite some clarity.
This program under the National Education Association, provided
with the help of Job Corps, provides an opportunity-and I sent six
teachers for the first experience in 1967 to a Job Corps center where
they spent a year's time in learning how to deal with dropouts. They
returned to the school district with a new vision and a new understand-
ing of what a dropout really is and what the needs are.
In the process an instructional tool was developed for attempting
to determine the potential dropout early in the grades, approximately
at fifth grade. At this point we hope to attack the problem with the
parent, and with the school changing its curriculum to meet its needs
so that the Job Corps will not have to have this kind of boy.
I am one that would readily say that I would hope that we could
phase Job Corps out when it has done its job, but to date, it has not
completed its work. It is needed for the future.
First of all, just for the boys; second, to help us train teachers so
that they can work in the public schools and do a better job.
The Job Corps program is succeeding. I would like to urge you to,
as a committee, if your time permits, to avail yourselves of the oppor-
tunity to see the film "Uphifi Climb," which is a new film produced
by Job Corps. I had a hard time getting this film in that the Job Corps
staff members are extremely careful, and I don't know for what
reason entirely, in that they are not to put out anything-at least
this is the information that I gather-that would sell Job Corps at
this time. I think this is unfortunate.
I did get the film. I must say this. I don't believe that the act, if
I understand it, and I don't mean to be an expert in this area, nor
do I believe that any control regardless of where it is should keep
PAGENO="0240"
1672
Congress or the people from hearing the full story relative to Job
Corps or any program of Government.
I feel this committee here is doing an excellent job in attempting to
come up with some of the facts and figures concerning this program.
I certainly urge the committee and Congress to insist on a careful
transition where change is required. I believe the Job Corps can be
improved. You are dealing with the lives of young men and young
women in our country. They shouldn't be dealt with like this.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead.
Mr. DORLAND. Perhaps the most successful experience of building
Job Corps techniques into the public school system has taken place in
Seattle, Wash., and we are very pleased to have Mr. Fred Breit and
Mr. Robert Nelson here to tell us about this very exciting project.
Mr. BREIT. Chairman Perkins and members of the committee,
it is certainly a pleasure to have this opportunity to tell you about our
experiences with the Project Interchange programs in the Seattle
public schools.
Our first relationship with this program started in 1966-67 when
six of our staff members volunteered to work at the Job Corps center
at Marsing, Idaho. They were there after a reasonable period of time
becoming acquainted with the materials and the procedures used in the
Job Corps program and realized there was a great potential for the
youth of this material and procedures in the public school program.
They developed a plan and when they returned in 1969 to the
Seattle public schools, we set up what we call a career planning center
for the potential dropout. These six teachers formed the core of that
particular staff. They had their program developed and we then
enrolled about 50 of these students who were potential dropouts.
They were in school, but to the best of our knowledge they would not
be there very long under the traditional educational program as we
had it.
We located our career planning center in an out-of-school setting,
a separate facility, with its own equipment and opportunities for
developing a program. We felt that putting them in a different en-
vironment apart from the regular school program would be a great
advantage and it certainly worked out that way.
This year we increased the program from 50 boys to 135. Keeping
in mind that when we added tIre additional boys, we are facing in
each year in our public school a potential dropout of about 2,000
students. So we have a long way to go in order to actually meet the
full needs of all the potential dropouts, but we have made a start and
this particular program has been a most successful one for us.
I might add that over the years we have been aware of the special
needs of the potential dropout, knowing that we were not adequately
meeting their needs and we have tried to approach the solution to
that problem in many ways. I can say without any reservation that
the Project Interchange program, our career planning center, has been
unusually successful and we base this success on a number of factors.
No. 1, of the boys who actually were enrolled in the program, less
than 10 percent left the program. They stayed with it and continued
on into career plans for the future, either additional skill training,
additional educational training, some of them went back into their
school program and actually graduated, as a result of the experience
that we provided them at the career planning center.
PAGENO="0241"
1673
We also know that the boys who are in the program achieved~
considerably in varying degrees, depending upon their own ability,.
in the basic skill areas, mathematics and arithmetic. We have testi-~
mony from the students who took part in the program. The parents of
these young people, the teachers involved in the program,~ along with
the fact that as these boys come into the program, they soon develop
a long-range career plan.
What do I do when I finish here? What are the next steps? And they
take and make constructive and positive plans for the future. So that
when they leave the career planning center, they are not simply out
on the street again. They have a plan in mind and they know where they
are going and ~rhat to do.
The program has been unusually successful and, in our judgment,must
be continued not only with the present number-135-but we should
set up additional centers throughout the city to accommodate a larger
number of youngsters.
Actually our career planning center is a sort of model that we feel
we could use to advantage in several areas of the city.
We would also hope as we look to the future, and if funds are
available, that we could include girls in the program. We had hoped
to do so this year. But our experience was with boys. There was a
lack of money and so we felt a commitment to continue with the
boys and so we have not included the boys at the present time, but
we do feel that in the future we would like to include them as there'
are many girls who need this type of training.
In addition to the career planning center, where we have worked.
directly with the boys, we have also had meetings with teachers to
acquaint them with the materials, with the procedures used in the
Job Corps program; hopefully somewhere, somehow, we can bring
this into the regular school program with the idea that we would
catch these potential dropouts very early and somehow eliminate the
large number that seem to accumulate as the years go along.
We are extremely pleased with the results of our Project Inter-
change program. We are confident that we can make a substantial
program in this area if Federal funds are available to augment our
local resources.
Thank you.
Mr. DORLAND. Mr. Nelson?
Mr. NELSON. Chairman Perkins and members of the committee~
the Job Corps has had a definite impact upon the public school system
of Seattle. As Mr. Breit has indicated, some 3 years ago six members of
our Corps on a volunteer basis signed up for Project Interchange and
spent 1 year at a conservation Job Corps Center in Marsing, Idaho.
Upon their return to the district, as a team, they introduced into the
Seattle system a prototype, a model if you will, of a type of effort
which we feel we will be seeing in the years ahead as we attempt as a
public school system to deal more effectively with these hard-core
potential dropout cases.
In effect, they set up in and out of school setting a simulated Job
Corps Center. This year-the second year of this effort-we have ex-
pandecl upon that original program to provide for 135 boys. We are
far short of meeting our total needs.
Important aspects of the program that this group has been develop-
ing during the past year and a half include those concepts of the pro-
27-754-69-pt. 3-16
PAGENO="0242"
1674
gram that Job Corps has developed over the years, that of programed
instruction, individualized instruction. As a former principal, I have
had the opportunity to observe some of my former students, who were
the disruptive and nonlearners in a junior high school situation, be
totally captivated in the instructional program in the classes of our
particular project. In fact, to the extent that they didn't even notice
when I came in the room. They were so busy with their program.
In the instructional area we are concerned primarily with the
basic skill areas of reading, mathematics, and language arts, but as
in Job Corps we are developing the world of work curriculum and
providing for these boys various levels of employment; the initial
stage being that of a sheltered workshop experience in which the
district has provided employment for these young men and boys
at a forestry center-piece of property which the district owns-
where they develop trails, build simple shelters, part of a long-range
effort to develop some 160 acres in the foothills of the Cascades into
an outdoor education center which will be of benefit to the entire
school district.
We have attempted to expand our vocational training within
our Center, without heavy capital outlay, by relying on some of the
job training opportunities which exist within the Seattle area. Our
initial vocational training areas include those of automotive service,
graphic arts, workers hospital aides, grounds and building mainte-
nance.
A program follows the Job Corps idea of providing supportive
guidance and counseling services and with our staff now of approxi-
mately 10 certificated or professionally trained people, or teachers
to attend students, we are doing an effective job of working closely
with these young men.
Another aspect of Project Interchange which has been introduced
into the Seattle system just within the past few weeks was a workshop
held recently in the area where we had 30 participants, schoolteachers
and administrators from the Seattle School District taking part in a
live-in situation for a full week.
During this time these teachers and administrators were exposed
and instructed in the Job Corps techniques and approaches. We had
an opportunity as school teams representing some seven critical
schools in the Seattle area to work as groups to develop plans which
they could take back to their respective buildings and classrooms.
This along with the demonstrations, the actual operative program
at our center, is enabling us as a district to introduce into the district
a more effective program for dealing with these potential dropouts.
We are falling far short of the need, but we are taking important
steps. I think the important thing to me, as I have observed the
development of the program during the past year and a half, is to
watch these young men and these boys as they grow and develop.
I had the opportunity several months ago to take a group of these
young men to meet with Washington State legislators from the Seattle
area. I was impressed as were the legislators with the articulate pres-
entation that these young men made with respect to their needs
and their problems and their desire, to get the education that they
know they need to get ahead.
I saw them hard at work in the forest and on other jobs. I have
seen the attitudes of these young men change.
PAGENO="0243"
1675
Last year because of Project Interchange our center-we saw five
young men graduate from their respective high schools because they
were able to complete their education through Project Interchange
and this center.
The Job Corps through proj ect interchange has been very instru-
mental in influencing the public school system of Seattle in making
those changes which are necessary to help these young men.
Mr. DORLAND. Dr. Hassel from Prince George's County has a
statement to make.
Dr. HASSEL. Thauk you, Mr. Chairman and members of the
committee.
It is a privilege to be here today as a neighbor of the District of
Columbia. Prince George's County, Md., on your eastern border bears
a reputation at the present time of being the most rapidly growing,
large school system in the United States.
We are faced with all of the problems which have been alluded to
this morning, including the development of urban poverty areas, and
the needs for meeting the requirements for education and training for
young people who are residents in our county and for the many who
are migrating to Prince Georges County from other sections.
We have been concerned for some years with the increasing prob-
lems of school dropouts. We have been increasingly concerned with the
inadequate approach that we are attempting to make in the public
schools to meet the needs of these youngsters. Consequently, in the
Prince Georges County schools we have sought alternative ways to
provide the appropriate educational program for the young men that
we are discussing today.
Although we have not been involved in any great extent in Federal
programs, primarily aimed at the needs of these particular youngsters,
we have as a school system developed an occupational training pro-
gram which we feel is rather unique in the area, located at a rural
former NIKE site, which has been made available to the school
system from the military authorities.
In operation now for 3 years, this school or center which is a day
school center has sought to educate and to train and to encourage
somewhat over the 100 boys to develop basic skills in the various
areas of learning in which they are deficient and to be provided with
the opportunity to gain some much needed occupational training.
We lack funds in our own school program, for example, to pay these
boys for the work which they are doing on the development of the site
itself. We feel the need for strengthening this program through the
initiation of a residential program. We believe that the Job Corps
and the experiences that have been brought to us through our partici-
pation in project interchange have encouraged us to seek alternative
ways at the local school level to provide for the kinds of training
experiences and basic education and rehabilitation experiences which
are common to young men in the Job Corps itself.
We have heard this morning that the public schools are inadequate
to meet the needs of these particular kinds of young people. I am not
so sure that the public schools are inadequate. I am not so sure that
we are that much different from society in general, because it is my
impression that it is only in very recent years, that we as n society
have become convinced that each individual is a person of worth and
value.
PAGENO="0244"
1676
I would submit that the Job Corps program and the other programs~
such as Headstart initiated at the Federal level have provided an
impetus for local school administrators, for school board members.
and for citizens in communities to begin to identify and to recognize
the kind of youngsters that need these kinds of programs, youngsters
which we have had with us in days gone by, but which are increasingly
being developed apparently as a result of the rapid urbanization of
our society.
In this respect, programs such as Job Corps assist a local schooL
system in focusing its attention and providing a larger proportion of
local funds on the development of programs, which together with a
Job Corps-type program at the Federal level, enables us to make or to
at least begin to make a real impact in the lives of these young people.~
Certainly we cannot do the entire job locally. This has been demon-
strated in the past and we frankly lack funds at the present time to
expand our occupational training program to the extent that we feeL
it is necessary.
I don't believe that Federal funds alone can do the job at the
Federal level. I believe that these are mutually supportive programs
and that operations such as project interchange tend to build a bridge
between the local school system and the Federal enterprise in the
development of programs which serve to meet the needs of young
people of this type.
We need to change our educational strategy in the public schools.
Weneed to recognize that for too long we have attempted to place the
individual child into a predetermined curriculum of studies. If he
didn't fit, then he was at fault.
We must change our viewpoints toward human beings and begin~
to realize that all people are people of worth and value and that
we, the educators, are in the best position to modify our programs
to meet their needs, and I believe that the Job Corps program has
aided in bringing this more sharply to our attention, and has served
to demonstrate that change can take place in the lives of young men
for whom society in general has declared that they are inadequate-
and perhaps unsuccessful.
This past week I had the opportunity to visit a Job Corps center in
a rural area south of St. Louis, to visit one of our own teachers who
is serving there on a full, year-round project interchange program.
Over lunch and in other parts of the day's experience, I talked
with young men who came literally from every part of the Nation,.
young men who were reading at way below grade level, reading level
below really any level of usefulness, certainly below the third grade
level, young men for whom life had been a series of failures, young
men who expressed their concern with themselves by telling me about
the successes that they have had in the Job Corps program, who for
the first time in their lives are enabled to see some success in their-
own life experience.
Our own teacher, who* is currently engaged at the Job Corps center,.
will return to us next February and he will be placed in a position
of a school social worker and be enabled to relate many of these-
experiences on a more effective level and effect changes in our program
PAGENO="0245"
1677
:as well as helping young people of this type who reside in Prince
Georges County.
So I believe that if we can see a continuation and a strengthening
of the partnership arrangement, that now exists through project
`interchange between the Federal Government and the local educa-
tional agencies, and if we can feel some encouragement and even some
`funding to provide programs at an increased level under our own
responsibility, then we who mutually care for these young people will
be able to make a substantial impact in their lives and I believe that
this is a much more appropriate way for our society to deal with these
problems than simply as we have done in the past, either ignoring them
or picking up concern when these people are literally lawbreakers in
our society and unsuccessful citizens~
Mr. DORLAND. Mr. Chairman, you have heard a lot of glowing
things about project interchange and our final witness is Dr. Carl
Minich, who is the project coordinator and has been for the past
year and a half. It is a pleasure to present him as our final witness.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead.
Dr. MINIcH. Mr. Chairman and members of the conunittee:
It is certainly a privilege and an honor to present this story this
morning of project interchange. I have prepared testimony which
has been submitted for the recOrd together with three supporting
documents, a 2-year report, a photo essay' report, summary of that,
and a booklet called "To Know Them One by One," which seems to
`say a lot about this program.
I submit these for the record.
Chairman PERKINS. Without objection, they will be entered in the
record.
(Documents follows:)
PREPARED STATEMENT OF DR. CARL E. MINICH, COORDINATOR, PROIECT INTER-
CHANGE, NATIONAL EDUCATION AssocIATION
Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee, I am Carl E. Minich; Co-
ordinator of PROJECT INTERCHANGE, a project administered by the
National Education Association and funded by the Office of Economic Oppor-
`tunity. Briefly, Project Interchange is a contract relationship between the NEA's
Division of Adult Education Service and the Job Corps whose main purpose is the
transfer of techniques and materials which have been proven successful in the
Job Coprs, into realistic meaningful programs in the public schools, geared
particularly to potential dropouts-before they become dropouts.
The widespread discussion that it has already evoked indicates that it has
become widely recognized by educators across the country as an activity which
shows promise for serving the educational needs of potential school dropouts
enrolled in regular school programs.
As a part of this statement I should like to submit for the record three (3)
documents which describe in detail the activities of PROJECT INTERCHANGE,
summarize its major findings and recommendations to date, and identify the
34 states and school systems which have already participated in the project.*
In addition to these reports I would also call attention to a documentary film
entitled INTERCHANGE: New Technqiues to Help Potential Droputs which
has been viewed by teachers and administrators in 256 public school systems
47 states.
These reports dramatically show that Job Corps methods and materials do,
`indeed, "work" with potential dropouts in our schools. They show that drop-
outs can be prevented, that disenchanted students can be reclaimed, that the
`teaching techniques pioneered by Job Corps Centers are valid in public schools,
PAGENO="0246"
1678
that public school teachers are eager to learn these techniques and are enthusiastic
about putting them to work with their students. This is what our project is all
about and it is why I as project coordinator wish to go on record in support of
HR 513 to extend the Economic Opportunity Act for five years. The primary
reason for my support is the oportunity the Job Corps program has provided
for hundreds of public teachers to develop new teaching skills and acquire deeper
insights and understanding of school dropouts-disadvantaged and under-
educated youth-through actual teaching experience and in-service training-
in Job Corps Centers for periods of time ranging from 2 months to one year.
These have been real-life, challenging experiences with Job Corpsmen-the
droputs, the push-outs, the kick-outs, the flunk-outs, from our public school-
frustrated young men and women for whom failure, rejection and hopelessness
had become a pattern of living and a way of life. Yet in the Job Corps they were
given a new environment, a feeling that someone really cared, a chance to be
somebody and most of all a sense of learning achievement, enrich their pre-
vocational skills, and-in some instances-learn marketable job skills.
*1. Report on 1st two years of Project Interchange
2. Individualizing Instruction for the "Different Student"
3. To Know Them-One 1~y One.
For the Interchange teachers, this all added up to an in-service education
opportunity which they had never had before. Almost without exception, in our
periodic evaluations, the teachers r~ported, their professional stimulation by the
program, and their enthusiasm and desire to return to their back-home school
systems to develop new programs, geared to potential dropouts, and based on the
successful practices they had experienced in the Job Corps program.
To date, more than 200 teachers have had this experience. During the current
year, plans are underway to involve an additional 200 teachers and school systems.
However, the proposed reduction in number of Job Corps Centers, and shadow of
doubt which has been cast on the Job Corps program, is making the task of
recruiting teachers for this vitalizing experience more and more difficult. It is.
decreasing the opportunities the NEA has for placement of these teachers in Job
Corps teaching situations.
Sam M. Lambert, Executive Secretary of the National Education Association,
in a public statement has said, "The record of the past two and a half years of
Project Interchange, compiled from the views and experiences of teachers, school
administrators, and Job Corps Center directors supports the NEA's early belief
that the newly conceived Job Corps program could have something to offer the
public schools-particularly as its programs related to motivational techniques
and successful practices for working with frustrated, educationally disadvantaged
youngsters-the potential school dropouts."
"Project Interchange reinforces beliefs long held by- educators that individual-
ized instruction is essential for mans- students-and costs more. But it also
demonstrates that the successful Job Corps practices can be effectively transferred
to schools where programs are being developed for potential dropouts."
By resolution on the part of its official body, the NEA Representative Assembly-
of more than 7,000 members has recognized the problems of inner-city education,
and has called for "bold experimentation" and more funds to reorganize school
districts and staffs in order to improve present programs and provide more com-
pensatory education. Its Platform which states the principles, policies and goals
which guide the Association, includes a strong statement that there must be
recognition of the special educational needs of disadvantaged Americans in order
that the "problems of inequality of opportunity may be attacked at their roots".
One of the problems of any quality of opportunity is the high dropout rate in
urban school systems a.s contrasted with the dropout rate in suburban school
systems. This is accentuated even more by close examination of the dropout rate
in the inner-city schools. The magnitude of the dropout problem nationaflv is.
indicated by the results of a study published in the 1968 HEW Digest of Educa-
tional Statistics which show that of all pupils enrolled in the 5th grade in 1959-60
(public and non-public schools), by 1967, 27.9% had dropped out and did not
graduate.
In large cities the percentage of young people who enter the 10th grade and do
not finish is even greater. A study made by the Research Division of the National
Education Association, in 1967, of the loss of pupils from grade 10 through high
school graduation in 128 large city school systems, reveals that 30.12% did not
PAGENO="0247"
1679
graduate. The ten cities in the study with the highest dropout rates were as
follows:
Dropout
rate
City (percent)
1. Albany, N.Y 55 57
2. Paterson, N.J 47. 03
3. Philadelphia, Pa 46. 69
4. Louisville, Ky 43 64
5.SanAntonio,Tex 42.04
6. Knoxville, Tenn 41. 24
7. Somerville, Mass 41. 24
8. Savannah, Ga 38. 36
9. New York City 38. 05
10. Corpus Christi, Tex 37 39
The Job Corps program has been outstanding in the fight to reclaim those
school dropouts. Project Interchange is the only program now operating with
the promise of transferring that Job Corps success to many of our public schools.
And without Job Corps Centers there can be no Project Interchange.
As Dr. Forbes Bottomley, Superintendent of Schools in Seattle, Washington-
one of the major Project Interchange cities-recently said, "Of all the things we
are trying-this (Project Interchange) effort holds the greatest promise."
If this success can be repeated in other schools, if such programs can be ex-
tended to a sufficient number of schools and expanded to take care of all the
students in each school who could use help, if the techniques can be extended to
dropouts returning to our public schools, then it follows that the need for Job
Corps could be eliminated or at least sharply reduced. But in the meantime-
during the next five years, at least,-where else but the Job Corps will the frustrated
school dropouts turn for help? Many, of course-particularly those who are suf-
ficiently motivated-will be enrolled in public school adult basic education classes.
And that is precisely why we in the Division of Adult Education are particularly
interested in PROJECT INTERCHANGE. But for many others, the complete
change of environment from the failures and frustrations of regular schooling,-
which the Job Corps can and does provide-is the only answer. Job Corps Centers
should not be drastically reduced or eliminated. They should be retained and
every effort made to still further extend their effectiveness to public education.
The widespread adoption in the schools of successful Job Corps techniques could
possibly save many of the number of up to a million students a year who drop
out from school-largely due to failure and frustration. And that, after all is
what PROJECT INTERCHANGE-and Job Corps-is REALLY all about.
PROJECT INTERCHANGE
1. PURPOSE
To transfer effective methods, techniques and materials utilized by the Job
Corps into the public schools of the United States. Enables (1) early identification
of potential dropouts and (2) development of remedial and meaningful programs
for them.
2. PROCEDURES
(1) Select public school teachers for a One-Year Experience at Job Corps Centers.
(2) Select public school teachers for a Summer Teaching Experience at Job Corps
Centers.
(3) Schedule Methods and Materials Workshops (6-10) in urban areas.
3. WHAT'S TRANSFERABLE INTO PUBLIC SCHOOLS FROM JOB CORPS
(1) Programed instruction (Job Corps math and reading, in particular).
Advantages-
(a) Small class size.
(b) Variety of levels which can be taught in one class.
(c) Progress at own rate of learning.
(d) Continuous reinforcement for student.
(e) Uses variety of instructional materials.
(2) Individualized instruction-
(a) Instant feedback to instructor on students' problem areas.
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(b) Provided leeway for instructor creativity (inherent within the instruc-
tor not the system).
(c) More relaxed classroom atmosphere
(d) Allows for instructor self-evaluation of presentation
(e) Indicates a personal concern for the student
(3) Teacher/Counselor role-
(a) Counsel potential dropouts. Individualized care.
(b) Provides insight into overall education of the student
(c) Instructor learns to listen
(d) Points up areas of need for diagnostic testing
(4) Corpsman Advisory System-
(a) Point/pay system provides motivation and reinforcement for student
4. ONE-YEAR PROGRAM
Selected teachers serve one year at Job Corps Centers, then return to their
~schoo1s to implement techniques, methods and materials. Teacher's monthly
pay-rate is extended over a twelve-month period, and teachers are paid through
~their school systems.
A one-week orientation session precedes assignment:
Status
1967-1968: 21 Teachers (4 Teams: Seattle, D.C., Detroit, Simi, Calif.)
1968-1969: 17 Teachers
1969-1970: 50 Teachers (17 Assigned; 33 Projected for June)
22 TOTAL
1967-1968-22 school systems represented from 14 states
1969-Emphasis on urban areas
5. SUMMER PROGRAMS
Selected teachers serve eight weeks at Job Corps Centers, and convene at follow-
up conference in autumn. A one-week orientation session precedes assignment.
Teacher receives a $200.00 per week stipend.
Status
Summer 1968: 150 Teachers
Summer 1969: 150 Teachers
300 TOTAL
1968-121 school systems represented from 33 states
6. METHODS AND MATERIALS WORKSHOPS (QUICK PAYOFF)
Scheduled in urban areas, these workshops train teachers and administrators in
~use of Job Corps:
(1) Teaching materials
(2) Similarities between corpsmen and potential dropouts
(3) Placement experiences
(4) Individualized instruction, intensive counseling
(5) Human-relations patterns
(6) New teaching patterns
(7) New student-teacher relationships
(8) Problem solving
We are authorized to conduct 6 to 10 workshops. Cumulative total is 240
teachers. Among cities sponsoring them are:
Seattle (Convened)
Minneapolis (Convened)
New York Environs (Planning Complete)
Chicago (planned)
Cleveland (tentative)
Newark (tentative)
Salt Lake City (planned)
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7. EVALUATION
(1) Follow-up Conferences.
(2) Questionnaires.
(3) In-depth Interviewing; 10 cities. (Pending)
(4) Telephone Follow-up to get at nitty-gritty. (Pending)
8. FINANCE
Total funds authorized $3,110, 193. 50
Total funds expended 1, 800, 252. 83
Remaining 1, 309, 940. 67
PROJECT INTERCHANGE
INDIVIDUALIZING INSTRUCTION FOR THE `DIFFERENT' STUDENT
(A Summary Report of the First Two Years)
A summary report of the first two years of Project Interchange, 1966-68. The
Project was administered by the Division of Adult Education Service of the
National Education Association under a contract with the Job Corps Section of
the Office of Economic Opportunity. Copies available on request.
When, in 1965, the National Education Association developed the initial pro-
posal for PROJECT INTERCHANGE, which subsequently was approved and
funded by the Office of Economic Opportunity, the Job Corps educational pro-
gram was being viewed dimly and with considerable skepticism by public school.
educators generally. At the same time the Office of Economic Opportunity was
being vociferous in its criticism of the public schools for their failure to provide
adequate educational programs for the educationally disadvantaged young men
whom the Job Corps was being established to serve-namely school dropouts.
The record of the past two and a half years of PROJECT INTERCHANGE,
compiled from the views and experiences of teachers, school administrators, and.
Job Corps Center directors is graphically presented on these pages. It supports
the .NEA's early belief that the newly conceived Job Corps program could have
something to offer the public schools-particularly as its programs relate to moti-
vational techniques and successful practices for working with frustrated, edu-
cationally disadvantaged youngsters-the potential school dropouts.
PROJECT INTERCHANGE reinforces beliefs long held by educators that
individualized instruction is essential for many students-and costs more. But it
also demonstrates dramatically that the successful Job Corps practices can be
effectively transferred to schools where programs are being developed for potential
dropouts. As one superintendent of a large city said "Of all the things we are
trying-this effort holds the greatest promise." By the same token those in the
Job Corps who have participated in PROJECT INTERCHANGE are now high
in their praise of the contributions of public school teachers to their programs
and the promise which PROJECT INTERCHANGE holds for the transfer of
their successful practices to the schools.
The NEA proudly presents this report of pioneering efforts in bridging a
credibility gap through INTERCHANGE.
BRIDGING A GAP
At one time, perhaps, it didn't matter too much. It didn't matter if youngsters
quit school. There were plenty of jobs available, plenty of need for hand workers.
as well as brain workers.
But no more. Even dead-end jobs without a future, these days, require the~
ability to read and write and calculate and express oneself. But few employers
check these things-they simply ask: "Do you have a high school diploma?"
The roster of people who must say "no" when asked that question is growing
at a rate of about a million a year. About a million students a year quit school
before they earn a diploma. And, for the most part, these are the "different"
students. For the most part, too, these are also the young unemployed after they
leave school.
What is left for them? Very little. But since 1964 there has been Job Corps. Job
Corps was created as a major weapon in the War on Poverty. Along with a lot of
other weapons directed by the Office of Economic Opportunity, Job Corps was
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designed to help eradicate poverty through education, through job training for
youngsters at the bottom of the barrel who recognized their need.
There were, at first, some doubts about Job Corps, some skepticism, but there
was a good deal of hope, too. And, gradually, the successes began to show.
They showed in a number of ways. Youngsters, who entered Job Corps unable
to read or write or calculate, learned swiftly; many of those who came remained
to complete the program; most of those who completed the program succeeded
in getting good jobs, jobs they never hoped to get before their Job Corps training.
What was so different about the Job Corps way? There were at least seven
factors: 1) a new environment in live-in Job Corps centers; 2) individualized
instruction through the use of programmed materials; 3) a new, integrative subject
of study called world-of-work; 4) paid work relevant to their studies and their
individual job goals; 5) intensive counselling, not just in academics but in living
with others, too; 6) an adult atmosphere in which students were not treated as
"kids"; 7) proper clothing, food, exercise, and medical and dental attention.
THE IDEA
In 1966 the National Education Association became convinced of two things:
some of the Job Corps-pioneered educational ideas could have real merit for the
public schools; Job Corps could use the help of more teachers who had formal
training and experience in teaching. If regular school teachers were sent into Job
Corps centers, they could contribute their own skifis in teaching and, at the same
time, learn about the Job Corps educational methods and materials that promised
so much. If the Job Corps way of teaching could be as successful in the schools as
it was in the Job Corps centers, perhaps the potential dropouts might stay in
school. If the transfer of the Job Corps into the schools was successful, it might,
indeed, help to cut off Job Corps "customers", might reverse the flow of human
resources that left the schools every year only to end up on the streets and alleys
of the nation.
NEA, through its Adult Education Service, proposed that the ideas be put to a
test, that an attempt be made to see if Job Corps methods could successfully be
transferred into the schools, to see if public school teachers could add significantly
the Job Corps program.
Jobs Corps personnel were enthusiastic and the Office of Economic Opportunity
(of which Job Corps was a part) agreed to supply the money needed. The result
was Project Interchange, which has proved that the Job Corps style of teaching
CAN work successfully in schools, CAN prevent dropouts, CAN spark a new
interest in study among students who, by all other indications, would leave school.
And Project Interchange has proved, too, that teachers CAN contribute in no
small way to the Job Corps program.
That first year-1966---67-Project Interchange canvassed a number of school
systems. It was looking for four systems, each with two characteristics: a bloc of
teachers willing to invest two years with Project Interchange-a year teaching
in a Job Corps center and a second year teaching in a special back-home project;
and a school administration that would let the teachers do it.
The first year the teachers would both learn the Job Corps way of education
and, with their own extensive backgrounds, be able to contribute a good deal
to the Job Corps. During the same year, each bloc or team of teachers, one team
from each of the four schools, would plan how "different" students back home-
students similar to those they were working with in Job Corps-could best be
helped. The second year, with the approval of their school administrations and
with financial support from Project Interchange, they'd commence their local
project.
Simi, Calif., Detroit, Mich., and Seattle, Wash., each sent six teachers.
Washington, D.C., sent three. They were on leaves of absence while at the Job
Corps centers, and their salaries, paid by Project Interchange, were the salaries
they would have received had they remained teaching at home.
THE PEOPLE
The teachers were a mixture. Most of them, of course, came from large cities
where the dropout problem was already acute. The teachers from Simi-a semi-
rural area near Los Angeles-knew that while the Simi-dropout rate was no more
than the state average-13 percent-an expected population influx was also
expected to drive that rate higher. There were some elementary teachers among
the 21. There were some high school teachers, specialists in one field or another.
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~There were vocational and shop teachers. There were guidance counsellors.
Most of the teachers were men. All of them were experienced. Some had been
teaching for decades.
Prior to their Job Corps work the teachers went through a brief orientation in
order to learn the philosophy of Job Corps teaching, the way Job Corps operates,
to learn what they could expect from Job Corps and what Job Corps would expect
of them.
Then they started. They taught, they counselled, they tutored, they organized
outings, they started hobby groups. Some of them even went out into the nearby
communities speaking about the Job Corps program to citizens' and civic groups,
letting the news media know what was going on at the center, sparking cooperation
wherever possible between the community and the center. Because they were
with their Job Corps students much more frequently, much more intimately than
they had been with students back home, they got to know them very well as
human beings, got to know their strengths and weaknesses, their personal and
academic hang-ups.
After that year in Job Corps, the teachers went back to their home school
systems, back to Simi and Seattle, back to Detroit and Washington, back to
begin their local projects. Of course, they knew exactly what they wanted to do
once they returned. They'd been planning for months.
The Seattle team had decided to transplant Job Corps practically in its entirety
-except for the residential aspect. The other three teams tried variations on the
Job Corps theme.
Here's what happened:
Seattle
Enrollment was voluntary, for full credit toward a diploma, and restricted to 50
boys-and that level was attained only gradually-identified as potential drop-
-outs b~ their school records and their advisers. The boys' ages ranged from 15 to
19. Although they remained nominally enrolled in their home schools, they
physically were transferred to the Career Planning Center-as the local Project
Interchange program was called-in the Wallingford Boys Club. Here there were
classrooms, a gym, a lounge and recreation area, and few reminders of the institu-
tional environment at which they had rebelled.
Here were most of the factors which made Job Corps work: a new environment,
- although the boys still lived with their families and were not provided the free
clothing, food, and medical and dental care which was an important part of Job
*Corps; individualized instruction; world-of-work study; paid work training;
intensive counselling; and an adult atmosphere.
Schedules alternated. All students reported every morning for classes. In the
-afternoon, while half of the students remained to study, the other half left the
Career Planning Center for paid work training in a forest area about 30 miles
away where, under the general supervision of a teacher but with their own work
leaders, the boys cut underbrush, felled trees, laid out trails, put up fences, and even
erected an A-frame shelter house. Eventually, the area will become an outdoor
laboratory where all Seattle students can learn more about nature.
Besides the work training, besides the world-of-work study in the skills needed
~to even go about getting a job, there was the usual Job Corps individualized in-
-struction through programmed materials in reading, math, and language. Al-
though there was a full-time guidance counsellor on the staff, each teacher also
-considered himself a counsellor . . . in the classroom, on the stairs, in the hail
-or the gym or the lounge or the forest. And the students were treated as adults.
The atmosphere, even in class, was relaxed. Nobody was shaken if a student
wandered out for coffee or a smoke. After all, the students were going at their own
speed with their own individual study programs. They knew if they relaxed too
much the work would not get done. What they did was their decision.
On arrival at the Center the average student was in the 9th grade but reading at
the 5th grade level and doing math at the high 3rd grade level. At the end of the
year the average student-including boys who started late in the program-had
gone from 5.3 to 7th grade in reading and from 3.9 to 9.8 grade in math. Five
potential dropouts at the Center received their regular high school diplomas as a
result of their work.
Simi
Although the Simi project was late in actually starting to work with children,
the time was well-spent-Simi teachers used it to refine their research into the
causes of dropouts in Simi. They wanted to make sure students invited into the
program were the students who needed help most.
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First the teachers checked the literature for factors other researchers had said
caused students to leave school. While these authors listed over 70 such factors,
they could agree on oniy 16 of them. When the Simi teachers checked back on
the school records of local dropouts, however, they were able to validate only
eight: mobility-the student attended at least four different schools through
6th grade; family income below 85,000 a year; discipline-the student was sent
to the principal's office at least three times in his first six years of school; high
absenteeism; average grades below "C" in the 4th, 5th, and 6th grades; person-
ality-notations in the student's permanent record that he was a non-participant,
withdrawn, without friends; parents' education-the student's father or mother
did not finish high school; health problems.
Because headquarters of the Project Interchange team at Simi was in a junior
high school, the teachers decided to concentrate on 8th grade boys and girls
there. Using the criteria they had already validated, they invited 34 children
into the extra-help program. Not one of the 20 boys and 11 girls who actually
started the voluntary program, with their parents' permission, dropped out.
And, in just 55 days of actual study with Job Corps materials, the students in-
creased their reading and math achievement by an average of one whole grade.
Detroit
Project Diploma, the Interchange project in Detroit, was essentially a voluntary
added-study program for students attending Northern High School. Any student
who wished could, when not in his regular classes, walk across the street to a
former auto sales agency, climb a flight of stairs, and start in. Although study
materials were late in arriving, the Detroit team of teachers went ahead anyway
using the techniques they had learned in Job Corps.
They offered extensive counseffing; world-of-work study, including visits to
employers in the Detroit area; catch-up help in reading and math and language;
and some paid clerical work training.
Sixty students were aided by Project Diploma over the two semesters. Although
their extra work did not count for credit, many younsters not only stuck with
and improved their facility but, in addition, rang up higher grades in their other
school activities.
Washington, D.C.
Unlike the other three local projects, Project Call dealt only with adults..
During the year, 395 such out-of-school adults, ranging in age from 16 to 87
years old, were enrolled. Project Call-for Community Adult Learning Labora-
tory-was set up within the school system's Armstrong Adult Education Center
where, from 8 am. to 10 p.m., adults were able to use Job Corps materials in a
concentrated reading and math and language program. In addition to its own
basic education students, Project Call also offered its help to adults working in
vocational programs at the school. After joining Project Call, 50 of these improved
their grades in their other work.
Although 33 Project Call students dropped out during the year, an additional
53 entered full-time employment, one entered military service, two passed Gen-
eral Educational Development tests for high school equivalency, 43 passed Civil
Service exams, 17 got their regular high school diplomas, and three entered college
In six months of study the average achievement hike was a year and a half in
reading and two years in math.
Now while all these activities were going on that second year in local projects~
another 17 public school teachers had been chosen by Project Interchange and
were working in Job Corps centers. There was no financial provision through the
OEO and NEA, however, for second year back-home program development based
on their Job Corps experience. There was the hope, of course, that once back in
their home schools their experiences in a new way of teaching would rub off on
their colleagues and would, perhaps, even influence their local school administrators
to set up special dropout programs on their own.
The same hope was present the following summer-1968-when Project Inter-
change decided to see if 100 teachers would be willing to spend their summer
"vacation" teaching in Job Corps centers. Known as Project 100, a simple an-
nouncement drew applications from 8,500 teachers. The interest was so great that
Project Interchange accepted 150, instead of just 100, applicants.
Virtually all of these teachers noted a change in themselves as a result of their
summer of Job Corps teaching. \Iost said they were now more aware of the
students who might flee school, more sensitized to their needs and more sensitive
to these needs in their teaching. ~1ost of them also became more vocal in sharing
their new insights with colleagues and more aggressive in seeking dropout pro-
grams in their schools-some successfully.
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Here are some of their comments:
"I experienced total commitment for the first time in my life."
"I was made aware of the profound needs of students who cannot survive public
education."
"I wish all teachers could have experienced what I experienced this summer, I
believe they would think twice before they push Johnny aside and say he can't learn.
I have watched girls who could barely read or write learn to read rather well and write
fairly well in eight weeks time."
"This was one of the most challenging experiences that I have had in all my 25
years of teaching."
"To me, the knowledge that I have gained has been more `valuable than at-
tending a university could possibly have been. The practical everyday experience
ant new methods and techniques could not have been learned in a make-believe
situation or from books."
"I feel that I learned more than I gave. To be sitting beside a Corps member
the same age as my daughter, who is a college senior, and be reading `This is an
ant,' was enough to almost tear me apart at times. But when progress is made
here it is colossal progress."
"An invaluable opportunity for those of us in public education."
These quotations came from questionnaires each teacher was asked to fill out.
But there were other methods of feedback to Project Interchange, too. When
`the first group of 21 teachers had finished their year of Job Corps teaching and
were starting work on their home projects, they were called into a seminar in
November 1967, and were asked for an evaluation of their orientatior to Job
`Corps, Job Corps itself, its teaching mehods and materials, and its promise for
use in the schools. All were highly rated although there were suggestions for
improvement. It was, in fact, at the suggestion of these first Project Interchange
teachers that the 1968 summer program was inaugurated.
A second "Round-Up" a year later brought together all 185 former Project
Interchange teachers, along with their school superintendents and representatives
of about 40 national organizations interested in education. The idea was to not
only give teachers a chance to exchange information and experiences, but to inform
both their superintendents and national organizations about the accomplishments
of Job Corps and the success of the Job Corps system in the schools. A detailed
report on the Round-Up Seminar, entitled "To Know Them, One by One," can
be obtained without charge, by writing to Project Interchange.
THE FUTURE
So what's happening now? Pour things, principally: 1) Job Corps teaching
opportunities for 50 teachers for a full year; 2) two months' summer (1969)
teaching experience for 150 teachers; 3) a series of small, intensive, week-long,
regional methods and materials workshops for teams of teachers and administrators
`from schools in urban areas-for a total of about 200 educators-in the use of
Job Corps techniques and materials once their administrators have agreed to
purchase and use them; 4) evaluation reports of Project Interchange activities.
Forbes Bottomley, Seattle school superintendent, unequivocally declares that
Seattle's Career Planning Center, based on Job Corps techniques, has proved the
most successful of any program attempted to help Seattle's potential dropouts.
If this success can be repeated in other schools, if such programs can be extended
to a sufficient number of schools and expanded to take care of all the students
in each school who could use help, then it follows that the need for Job Corps
could be eliminated or at least sharply reduced.
STARTING POINT
As a start in duplicating Project Interchange success, interested school dis-
tricts might investigate the matter further. They might get a copy of the Project
Interchange film, "Interchange: New Techniques to Help Potential Dropouts,"
and set up a showing for their teaching staffs. They might participate in Project
Interchange methods and materials workshops. They might provide leaves of
absence for any of their teachers who want to gain Job Corps teaching experience.
They might purchase-and utilize in their schools-Job Corps programmed
instructional materials.
Information on these activities may be obtained by writing: Project Inter-
change, Division of Adult Education Service, National Education Association,
1201 16th St. NW., Washington, D.C. 20036.
Widespread success of Job Corps techniques in the schools could possibly
save a million students a year from failure and frustration. And that, after all,
is what Project Interchange-and Job Corps-is really all about.
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To KNOW THEM-ONE BY ONE
(Report of the Project Interchange Roundup Seminar,Phoenix, Ariz.,
October 13-16, 1968)
WE PRACTICED WHAT WE PREACH
Any resemblance between the pre-conference Roundup Seminar plans laid by-
the Project Interchange staff in Washington, D.C., and what actually happened
in Phoenix, Arizona, October 13-16, 1968 was strictly planned coincidence. The
significant point was that the plans made in Washington were designed to permit
flexibility of schedule, change, personal involvement, and participation-and
that was just the way it happened.
For the Project Interchange Roundup Seminar was a "happening" for adults
geared to a proven principle of adult education-that people learn best by involve-.
ment and participation rather than by listening to lectures or being pressed into
some rigid pre-packaged meeting format.
Building on what they were learning from each session, the 400 seminar partici~
pants were constantly changing and shaping the meeting to their needs, rather than
the other way around. Sometimes they worked late into the night to carry over
valuable ideas that had grown out of the daytime discussions.
One clue to the seminar's dynamism grew from the fact that it was really not
just one conference but three-each of the three geared to the special needs of its
own participants.
Early in the seminar, Project Interchange teachers met as a group, not just to
re-live their experiences in Job Corps Centers, but to "dream" about an ideaL
school situation back home in which they could incorporate some of those experi-
ences and learnings.
In the meantime, school administrators-superintendents and principals-who
had not had the firsthand experience of the teachers, but who wanted to know
more about it, were being exposed to Job Corps materials, philosophy and tech-
niques and were raising questions about them.
At the same time, some 40 representatives of professional organizations related
to education, having been similarly briefed, were considering how they could
begin more substantial cooperation with the Job Corps in ways that would benefit
their memberships. For example, the American Association for Health, Physical
Education, and Recreation was interested in comparing the effects of various:
physical education programs on the Job Corps population; the American Personnel
and Guidance Association was considering how to involve its counselor members
as Project Interchange participants, and so on.
Eventually the three groups-teachers, administrators and representatives of
professional organizations, referred to as "RPO's" were brought together for
sessions on planning and implementing "takehome" strategies. For some teachers,
it was the first time they had ever seen their superintendents face to face. And
for most, it was a new experience to have persons of widely differing status in
education coming together as a team to ask themselves: "What can we do together
back home?" to put into practice what they had learned.
One symbolic theme-"the bag"-was woven through the Conference to help'
participants better to perceive themselves, their hangups, and the roles they
could play.
Given a laundry bag early in the seminar, the participant was told this was his
"bag" in which to put the problems facing him in terms of Job Corps, public
education, community work, OEO, NEA, teachers, administrators, and what he
really wanted to carry home from his seminar experience. At the final session,
conferees worked on ways of "getting out of their bag"-describing, listing,
picturing the persons, groups, resources, and strategies that could be tapped back
home in actual programs and practice.
What the teachers said . .
"Like every teacher, I hear a lot about a mfflion school dropouts every year,.
but I only know them as you do, one by one. And it was a dropout who gave me
my first lesson as a teacher on just how irrelevant the traditional school curriculum
can be for some students. My school was in the Boston slums, with an almost total
black enrollment. One of my seventh-graders, a 16-year-old boy, came to me one
day to tell me he was going to leave school at the end of the year to get a job, a
car, and all the rest. I gave him the usual ritualistic promotion on why he ought
to stay in school and on the value of an education, and he quickly interrupted
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me. `You know,' he said, `A teacher told that to my brother and he stayed in
school and he graduated and now he's washing cars.' Then he added: `I can wash
a car right now,' and he dropped out."
That was John D. Sullivan of the National Education Association underscoring
a point for some 400 educators-teachers, administrators and representatives of
national organizations-at the first general session of the "Roundup Seminar" in
Phoenix, Ariz., Oct. 13-16, 1968 sponsored by NEA and the Office of Economic
Opportunity.
The Seminar was a climax to two years of "partnership in innovation" between
the two agencies. By fall 1968, some 185 public school teachers, through Project
Interchange, had had the experience of living with, learning from, and teaching
school dropouts who were getting a "second chance" at education and work
training in the nation's Job Corps Centers.
The teachers, their bosses-the school superintendents and principals-and
interested observers from some 40 national groups were gathered to discuss how
the on-the-job insights gained by the teachers and their new-gound expertise in
using Job Corps concepts, materials, and techniques could be applied effectively
back home with potential dropouts in the public schools. This was done, not in the
traditional "telling" type conference, but through carefully planned sessions with
conference leaders on a day-to-day basis, which altered the program to meet group
needs and provided considerable involvement of the participants.
A phrase used by Sullivan: "To know them, one by one," became a dominant
theme threaded through the four days of discussion. The teachers, fresh from
two months of summertime Job Corps teaching under the aegis of "Project
100(150)" referred again and again to the biggest thrill of the whole experience-
the opportunity to "really know" their students.
These were some of the things they said about their experiences and how their
back-home situations could be improved to provide more meaningful programs
for potential dropouts:
I taught Job Corpswomen in a business-clerical course and I found I could give
the same type of instruction as I would back home in my own classroom. But
there was so much personal satisfaction in the time I could spend with an in-
dividual student. Some of our classes were two hours long, and in others I met
students four or five times a week. I really got to known them.
Back home, I'm somebody who punches the clock every morning in a big city
school system. The free and informal relationships at the Job Corps Center
between students, staff and teachers, was a revelation to me.
In classes of 15 students, we had freedom to "relate." The small class size
is the biggest key to success of the Job Corps.
We had time to look behind the real reasons the youngsters were griping.
Usually they would say something like "the food is lousy," or "the dorm is too
noisy" or "the boys won't leave me alone." As teachers we had time to decode
what the real problem was.
Job Corpsmen respond to individual attention. We got to know them as mdi--
viduals. I felt some of the regular Center staff had "hardened" already.
Teachers should be free to teach and not be burndened with a lot of other
nonsense, In my Center, class ratios were 8 to 1 or 12 to 1, and the teachers could
demonstrate that they care about having someone learn.
At my Center, the girls were moving into a new building and we teachers
helped them lug things back and forth. We had a picnic lunch together. They
asked us to help them write a new constitution to govern their group living and
we did, stressing the importance of registering and voting.
I went to my arithmetic class and sat, but none of the youngsters asked. for
help. Finally, I saw a girl who was obviously having trouble with fractions. I
asked her if she wanted help and she said no, butT kept at it, saying "I know a
better way to do that problem." I showed her and she was able to go on with her
work. Later, I was told, she went to the Center Director and told him, "You hire-
that teacher. She's good!"
I could not believe when I went there that a grown man would not be able to
read the sentence: "I am a grown man." But the Corpsmen had the courage to
go back and learn phonics, and to me that wa~ progress.
It was important to me to discover that these students really wanted to learn.
I know I improved my skills and my sensitivity in regard to these youngsters
that we so glibly label "non-learners."
At my center, the whole staff was organized to be counsellors. Everybody has
the ability to reach certain types of kids, even though the kids won't buy all of
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us right down the line. The trick is to try to decide which staff member the kid
-will respect and get him with that one.
I liked the frequent diagnostic tests that show the Corpsman "where he is"
academically. It seems to me he needs that element of immediate success.
The first four weeks in the Job Corps Center are the most important for these
youngsters. If they can make it through that, they're all right and the new
experiences can begin to take hold.
In teaching, you're lucky if you get three or four "charges" a day out of your
work. I regarded my experience in the Center as an adventure where I could see
something new happening in education. The youngsters aren't getting anything
new back home in my school system.
The teachers in Project 150, despite an intensive week of orientation, said they
really had not known what to expect either of the Job Corps Center to which they
-were assigned, or of the youngsters they would meet. They were apprehensive.
But they soon gained insights that they will carry back with them to their own
schools. They said things like this:
Some of us went into the Centers cold. We asked ourselves: What does a Corps-
man look like? Is he a normal person, is he retarded, or what? Some of us were
fearful because the enrollment at the Centers is so largely black. I myself am a
Negro and even I was apprehensive.
We need to change the teacher's attitude toward youngsters like this. When I
went to my Center, I was downright scared. I even thought my life might be in
danger. But then I saw how nice these kids are, and how much they needed help.
Parents are crucial in getting youngsters to stay at the Center or to drop out.
Parents call up and write letters saying, come back home. The youngsters want to
stay in the program but neurotic parents invent wild stories of illnesses, mothers
being raped in the streets, and all sorts of things.
Some of my girls "pretended" to be homesick. They didn't really have anything
or anybody calling them home, but others were homesick and they felt they should
be too.
One of my girls was afraid to go home. Her stepfather attacked her mother and
cut the girl with a bottle when she tried to defend her mother. The girl was put
in jail for five months.
I guess I don't trust my students back home to help each other-that is, having
one who has mastered fractions help one who hasn't. But it works at Job Corps.
Teachers need to face the fact that in some school systems the reading range in
each grade may be three to four years difference, and that we must do something
about this.
The orientation Job Corpsmen get says to them that it "takes a man to exist in
this kind of program." And they take on the manhood.
We must train teachers really to get tO know this type of student and some of
the problems that face him at home-health, dope, alcoholism.
Most of the Corpsmen I saw did have a personal desire to read. And in our
Center, every teacher had newspapers. In the morning, Corpsmen could read them
for 10 to 15 minutes and they did so, eagerly. And one Corpsmen asked me for an
anthology of poetry.
Inevitably there were some disappointments and teachers recounted them. Said
one: "The headway you made some days was nil." Another said she needed more
background in counselling, because the girls were asking her for advice. A third
said teachers need a "recharging system" because you get "burned out and ex-
hausted." Others were sorry they had not had the opportunity to "live in" at
the Center, but they tried to make up for this by coming back "out of hours" to
teach art programs and to go on camping trips with students.
What the administrators said .
While the teachers were trading experiences and ideas, the administrators from
school district and organizations who must take a hardnosed attitude about change
which involves budgets, politics, and public relations, were raising thoughtful
questions on what would be involved in trying to adapt Jop Corps techniques to
public school systems. These were some of their questions and comments:
What would it cost a school system which has not been involved in Project
Interchange to buy the entire set of Job Corps materials, and how extensively
can these programs be used? What is their life?
The major problem in implementing the Job Corps program in public high
school seems to be the lack of money. Is there money available through OEO or
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NEA to purchase materials and hire extra staff? If so, how do we go about getting
these funds?
I believe it is possible to transfer the Job Corps instructional philosophy to
public schools-the complete individualizing of instruction where the teacher!
pupil conference replaces the lecture method; the realistic diagnosis of the student's
academic needs and realistic treatment based on this assessment. The gap could be
bridged, but it's going to take considerable effort to make this ideal a reality.
The chief implementation problem at the local level is the lack of money;
the teacher/pupil ratio; rigid systems, tradition, and the problem of translating
new thinking to decision-making school boards and the public.
Would the problem student in his home environment be as responsive to the
materials as the highly-motivated Corpsman in a residential center?
As an administrator, you expect me to know too much about the Job Corps.
I need more background. Therefore, I suggest you establish better contact with
such groups as the American Association of School Administrators.
We need more statistical data for administrators on the cost of materials and
on how students progress in this type of program.
Much has been said about the implementation of the Job Corps educational
program, but how does public education go about implementing the Job Corps
work program?
Why isn't Project Interchange a two-way street with personnel from Job Corps
spending time as teachers in public schools?
Where best could Job Corps materials fit into the public school curriculum?
In special education? Remedial reading? In regular primary, intermediate, or high
school?
If you could have financed it, it would have helped a lot to give each adminis-
trator a copy of the basic teaching materials. Then he could take it to his district
and show the material to the appropriate people. My district would have been
happy to have paid $25 to $50 for this privilege. They spent four times that much
letting me come to this meeting.
Some administrators feel threatened by the establishment of a "parallel"
system of education in OEO programs. Is this justifiable?
To what extent has the residential (or removed from home environment)
nature of the Job Corps contributed to its success? If it is successful, why not re-
move the potential dropout while he is still in elementary school?
What do the two partners, OEO and NEA, see as the relationship between
this program and similar federal projects such as MDT and those for unemployed
youth?
Since there seems to be a feeling that many schools represented here are already
engaged in the use of the same materials and techniques as are being used in Job
Corps, wherein lies the difference in measuring the immediate success of the Job
Corpsman and the public school student?
Some of these questions-not all-were answered by the "Response Panel"
at the Seminar banquet Monday night. Panelists included Robert A. Luke,
director, Adult Education Service Division of the NEA; Barry Argento of the
Job Corps, and David Paynter, superintendent of schools, Garden Grove,
California.
To those who were asking if there were federal (or other) funds to provided
Job Corps materials to public school systems who wanted them, Mr. Argento
noted that Congress had provided no funds "to perpetually do this. It is some
thing the school willl have to take on itself."
Mr. Luke countered that the "money is already there" in local school districts,
but boards of education must make the decision to allot a higher percentage of
the tax dollar for supplementary and remedial programs for both disadvantaged
youngsters and adults. Mr. Paynter, speaking as a school superintendent, said
the money was NOT there.
The panel warmly greeted the idea of a "reverse" interchange with Job Corps
teachers spending some time in public schools, but warned that state certification
requirements might interfere.
To those who wanted to know just what advantages the residential nature of
the Job Corps offers, Mr. Argento noted that the "main plus is the time allowed
with the boy or girl in our program . . . we have them seven days a week, 24
hours a day . . . we don't have to turn them back at 3 o'clock or 4 o'clock . .
and we do control the environment in which they live while they are with us.
This gives you more than just a classroom approach to changing their behavior
or changing their attitudes or increasing their skills."
27-754----69-pt. 3-17
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Forty million student days
"You have seen and lived in ways that most of your associates in education
have not, and probably will not," Robert Young told the Project Interchange
teachers at the Seminar banquet, "and you have a story to tell others."
The former director of plans and programs for the Job Corps charged that many
Americans have "written off the dropout, feeling it's his own damn fault anyway.
Too many citizens seem convinced that certain children are pretty uneducable
and it really isn't worth the expense to try."
His personal conclusion was, however, that "in some forty million student
days of Job Corps instruction, a lot of kids whom almost everyone else had written
off, have learned a lot about reading and mathematics, surviving in decent rela-
tionships with people of other races, learning trades and getting jobs."
As for the NEA/OEO partnership since 1966, he felt the experimental projects
would have been worthwhile even if nothing happened except that 185 teachers
had a "positive learning experience" and developed greater insights into the needs
of a school population that might "well have driven them pretty much to despair
back home."
He quoted three public school teachers who had taken part in Project Inter-
change. One said: "For the first time in my life, I experienced total commitment."
A second said: "Becoming color blind is great." And the third said: "1 now realize
the profound needs of these students who cannot survive in public education as it
currently exists."
The experiences of the public school teachers who have worked in Job Corps
Centers, he predicted, will be the forerunners, long overdue, of "massive changes"
in America's educational system-including voluntary residential living programs
for dropouts, a new curriculum based largely on programed instruction, combined
work/training study in the atmosphere of a national park or a large urban center,
different kinds of instructors, elimination of grading, and individually-paced
instruction.
The greatest changes, he believes, wifi come in large urban areas where 70 per-
cent of all Americans live.
"In our lifetime, and indeed probably in the next decade," he said, "we will see
the disappearance of boards of education made up of the educated community
elite-the banker, lawyer, and social leader. Instead the board will consist of
people who are more directly responsive to the community's urgent and immediate
needs."
The decentralization "which is bound to occur in large communities" will
hasten the virtual disintegration of some of today's "massive and rigid educational
establishments," The boards of education, for example, may well give way to
professionally-paid commissions with the board serving as an advisory group. This
may cause "a great deal of anguish" to many people involved in the educational
process.
Mr. Young predicted radical changes in both what will be taught and how it
will be taught in the schools to make the learning relevant to youngsters' lives.
"The slum child who sits down to a meal with rats and roaches and joins a gang
in his neighborhood to survive and passes the junkie in the school yard going to and
fro each day, can only consider Silas Marner and the laundered pap that passes
for social studies not only as boring, but as phoney."
Compensatory programs such as Head Start which make up for shortcomings
in the regular school program wifi be broadened, he said. "Any system as com-
plex as the education system must depend on various types of compensatory
programs to reach those unreachable by traditional offerings."
A third development, he declared, wifi be a second system of schools competing
with the existing public school system which is after all "a monopoly which is
not held adequately accountable in any workable way for its successes and its
failures."
Regional schools funded by states or by consortiums of states with the federal
government will make their appearance in the coming years, he said, and hard
on their heels wifi come the private sector competing directly to provide educa-
tional services to communities.
The Youngsters Trembled Too
"We call this cooperative effort of NEA and OEO `partnership in innovation,'
said John D. Sullivan, "And that's good. But to me, the partners are really the
student and the teacher, and they both deserve great praise for their pioneering
effort."
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The NEA assistant executive secretary for communications and public rela-
tions noted that the dropout student who opts for a second chance in the Job
Corps and the public school teacher who applies for a Project Interchange assign-
ment are making voluntary decisions which are not easy ones.
"They are passing from the known (which, to be sure, may not be very good)
to the insecurity of the unknown. I heard some teachers tell today how they
trembled the first time they went to the Job Corps Center. I should think the
youngsters did too."
But because teacher and student have had the courage to take this step, said
Mr. Sullivan, they are paving the way for other agencies to attempt innovations,
including the school systems, teacher training institutions, industry, government
and professional associations such as NEA.
Taking it all back home
As the Roundup Seminar drew to a close, participants sharpened their focus
to draw specific recommendations keyed to the question: "How can we apply
back home what we learned from our Job Corps experience?"
They were spurred by the eloquent challenge posed at the final session by
Forbes Bottomley, superintendent of the Seattle, Washington, public school
system which has been involved since 1966 with Project Interchange and which
has developed from it a program widely believed to be the most successful of all
the city's efforts to reach potential dropouts.
"Who cares," Mr. Bottomley asked Seminar participants, "that a revolution is
going on in America that can cause us continued agony and tear down the very
system that provides justice for all? Who cares that groups like the Black Panthers
and the `blackshirts' of every racial composition are resorting to guerrilla warfare?
Who cares about finding humanitarian, constructive, and creative solutions to
the problems of the disadvantaged young in American society?"
Answering his own questions, Mr. Bottómley declared: "We care as a govern-
ment, we care as a state, we care as a school district, and most of all, we care as
individual teachers and administrators for these youngsters."
In a lighter vein, the group was urged by Mrs. Dorothy J. Mial and Dr. Howard
Lamb of the NTL Institute for Applied Behavioral Science "to get out of their
bag" of preconceived notions and to come up with workable plans, strategies, and
ideas to implement the Job Corps philosophy in their own schools. The par-
ticipants responded with a great many specific ideas and proposals.
Their recommendations centered on how best to utilize the new-found skills and
perspectives of the teachers who had experienced Project Interchange . . . how
to reach potential school dropouts in the public school system . . . how to utilize
Job Corps materials in public school settings . . . how to tell the story of Project
Interchange in a way that other educators, their school boards, and their com-
munities would recognize-and act upon-its significance.
But Seminar participants also had recommendations as to how next year's
Project Interchange teachers should be prepared for their new experience; and how
to win more support from outside groups not yet formally involved. These were
some of the recommendations:
On Using Project Interchange Teachers Back Home:
Develop training teams to organize one-week workshops for groups of 100-200
"home-town" teachers for intensive study of Job Corps educational materials,
methods, and special techniques. This would be an in-service program, organized
and supported by the local schools, and should include methods of teaching
elementary school students, potential high school dropouts, and young adults.
Provide each Project Interchange "veteran" with a lecturer's packet of ma-
terials, testimonials, films, statistical data on the kind of economic investment
required to adapt Job Corps philosophies, plus case studies of Job Corps successes
and background briefings on the Corps itself. The Project Interchange teacher,
operating asian individual, would utilize the packet in briefings and reports for
boards of education, community groups, and teacher meetings. Such a packet
would also be useful "recruitment" material as the veteran teacher met at youth
opportunity centers with potential local Job Corpsmen and their parents.
Teachers with Job Corps experience would be especially effective in some Title I
projects in the local district.
Nine weeks may not be an adequate training period in Job Corps for those
teachers who seriously intend to adapt their new learnings for back-home use.
Give the Project 100 (150) teachers of 1968 an additional summer of Job Corps
experience to work along with 100 new teachers.
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Use the Project interchange teachers as local tutors for school dropouts and
for adults who wish to complete the general education requirements for a high
school diploma.
Use the teachers to train other persons in the community who are involved in
tutorial programs. This could mean the local community would eventually de-
velop a more effective cadre of volunteer and/or paid youth tutors.
Some teachers with Job Corps experience felt upon their return home that they
were not gien the opportunity to share it with administrators and other faculty
in ways that would have helped build new programs for the schools around their
new insights. They wanted this opportunity.
Make available the Project 100(150) roster of names for future use by Job
Corps Centers, either in summer programs or in short-term assignments.
Assign Project 100(150) teachers to Job Corps regional offices during the sum-
mer as potential substitutes. Their training would be of great value to the Center's
educational directors, ensuring continued program quality during illnesses, leaves,
temporary vacancies on the regular staff.
Make sure Project 100(150) teachers are available for the recruitment of
new teachers in the ongoing Project interchange, and involve them in orientation
programs for the novices.
Arrange for a conference between the Project 100(150) teacher and future
recruits who live nearby. For example, a person from San Francisco who took
part in the 1968 program could get together with someone from Sacramento going
into next year's program.
Assign Project 100(150) teachers to Job Corps screening centers in the summer
to work with staff and applicants.
On Reaching the Potential Public School Dropout:
We're beating a dead horse and being unrealistic when we talk about lowering
class size in public schools. But there are alternatives. For one thing, we can get
rid of grades and class standings. We can spend more money on teacher training.
We can use paraprofessionals. If you have two aides to help the classroom teacher
in a room of 30 pupils, there goes the class load down to a ratio of 10 to 1.
Give teachers authority to make more decisions regarding the individual
educational program of each student.
Promote in the public schools more student control and governance of their
own affairs.
Provide work experience for which the student is paid during the school day.
Recognize the need for introducing into black communities school programs
which reinforce a positive male image.
Build a spirit of noncompetitiveness into school programs so that the student
is in competition only with himself.
Treat the student as a human being and be sensitive to his feelings.
Let the student work at his own level and speed, and figure out ways to measure
his progress.
Move Job Corps techniques into the lower grades to stave off future failures.
The setbacks in reading begin in grades 1, 2, and 3.
On Using Job Corps Materials Back Home:
Job Corps materials are not a "miracle package" that you mix with water and
serve wholesale. Use them in a creative way back home, taking some, rejecting
some.
All available Job Corps materials should be put into the hands of teacher
training institutions. Also they should be used at conferences of teachers with
time set aside to discuss a specific field. For example: "What use could be made of
the Job Corps reading program in grade 1 of our public schools?"
The Job Corps testing programs, particularly those that give an analysis of the
individual student's problem areas, are needed in public schools. The teachers
would like to see at least part of the programed instruction in their schools too,
but here again it's a question of money. Materials that do not require hardware
and stress self-study seem most feasible at the moment for public school use.
Consider the possibility of OEO working through state education departments
and/or school districts to provide funds for "special education programs" to help
the potential school dropout. Money is also needed to set up workshops where
teachers and administrators could develop positive attitudes regarding the Job
Corps instructional philosophy.
On telling the Project Interchange Story:
Involve key members of the NEA on a local and regional basis so that all mem-
bers of the Association feel involvement and pride in the partnership.
Devote an issue of the NEA Reporter to the Job Corps and to Project Inter-
change. Also establish other communications media to tell the story.
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On the Orientation of Future Project Interchange Teachers:
Small groups should be organized utilizing new Corpsmen, specialized Corps-
men and graduate Corpsmen, along with residential workers and councilmen, to
orient the new teachers on the Center's community relations, language, attitudes
and social relations.
Participants should be informed before orientation regarding the areas of learn-
ing in which they will work, and their training should be concentrated in those
areas.
Teachers need information on the assigned center regarding its organization and
setup and what exactly is being accomplished there.
Teachers should spend one day at the center prior to the training period.
Notify the teacher of acceptance in the program before the end of the school
year.
The pre-training packet of educational materials should be mailed to teachers
accepted for assignment. They can then become familiar with them before their
orientation period begins.
The first day of orientation should contain: 1) an overview of total educational
program at the Center; 2) a period of time for the teacher in the actual classroom
where he will teach; 3) formal examination by the teacher of Job Corps teaching
materials under guidance of an instructor who is thoroughly familiar with the
approach. The remainder of the week should be divided between: 1) formal instruc-
tion; 2) time in the classroom; 3) observation and participation in the residential
living, counseling, recreation, vocational and work programs.
The training program for teachers should include: reading, math, world of
work, vocational, language and study skills (including use of hard and software),
the audio-oral approach to the teaching of English as a second language; driver
training, including government regulations; and training in audiovisual equip-
ment to be used at the Center. Also, the teacher should be given thorough back-
ground material in the Job Corps history and organization.
Try to place teachers in a Center a little closer to home-that is, don't bring
someone from Maryland to a California Center.
Allow each project recruit to visit his assigned center before going there. He
needs some time to observe and should not take over the class on his own the
first day at the Center.
Give recruits more information on ethnic backgrounds, psychology and
anthropology.
Give the training at four sites-two in the West and two in the East, to cut
down on cross-country travel. Train teachers in Centers like those in which they
will actually work.
This is Project Interchange
Project interchange is funded by the Office of Economic Opportunity and
operated by the Division of Adult Education Service of the National Education
Association.
Its purpose is to deepen the public school teacher's insights and understanding
of disadvantaged young people as well as to give him experience in using Job
Corps teaching techniques which hopefully will be useful "back home" with
potential dropouts. A second purpose is to bring the special skills of qualified
teachers to the Job Corps.
Since it was begun in 1966, Project Interchange has placed about 200 public
school teachers for varying periods of time in Job Corps Centers where they
actually taught Job Corpsmen using the techniques and materials developed by
the Corps.
In the 1966-67 school year, Project Interchange sent four teams of teachers,
21 in all-from Simi, California, Detroit, Michigan, Seattle, Washington, and
Washington, D.C.-to work with the Job Corps for the whole year.
During the 1967-68 school year, while an additional 15 teachers were going
through a year-long teaching experience with Job Corps, the original 21 were
back in their home school districts planning special projects to aid potential
dropouts, using their Job Corps experience as a basis.
Project Interchange provided the money for these local projects, each of them
set up in a different way, each attacking the dropout problem from a different
angle, but each wedded to the idea of turning on students who had been turned
off by regular school programs.
From this beginning, Seattle, Washington, schools, for example, plan a six-fold
expansion of their program.
In the summer of 1968, Project Interchange decided to experiment with short-
term experiences for teachers, and announced that "Project 100" would have
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openings for 100 public school teachers to teach and learn in a nine-week program
from June 23-August 23 in civilian conservation Job Corps Centers in all parts
of the nation.
The response from teachers was immediate and dramatic. More than 8500
inquiries from teachers poured into Project Interchange headquarters and some
500 teachers-SO times the number of openings-submitted formal application to
take part in the summer program.
"Project 100" was expanded to include urban centers and an additional 50
teachers and from then on became known as "Project 150." Teachers from 33
states and the District of Columbia spent nine eye-opening weeks in some con-
servation and urban Job Corps Centers, and their reactions, ideas, and emotions
are reported in this publication.
And the beat goes on. During the Phoenix "Roundup Seminar" Project Inter-
change Director Carl E. Minich announced that a third year of "partnership in
innovation" between the NEA and the Office of Economic Opportunity/Job
Corps was about to begin. Starting with the second semester of the 1969-70 school
year, under a new contract, SO teachers from numerous school systems will be
assigned to work for one year in Job Corps Civilian Conservation Centers, some
150 more will be assigned to short-term summer teaching, and up to 400 other
teachers and administrators will be taking part in workshops dealing with Job
Corps methods and materials under the aegis of Project Interchange.
Abont the Job Corps
The Job Corps, major youth program of the War on Poverty, was established
by the Economic Opportunity Act of 1964 and targeted toward those teen-agers
at the bottom of society's ladder-those, as President Johnson put it, "whose
background, health, and education make them least fit for useful work."
Youngsters, aged 16-21, were given the opportunity to enroll voluntarily in
Job Corps to live in a residential center for six months or more with other boys
(or girls), get three square meals a day, go through a basic education program
to learn fundamental communication and computation skills, receive vocational
training and have actual work experience, participate in sports, recreation, self-
government, and group living.
Patterned originally after one of the most amazing social action successes ever
registered by the federal government-the Civilian Conservation Corps of the
193Os-the Job Corps was, from its inception, an experimental program. Its
purpose was as much then-and it is now-to discover techniques of rehabilitating
youth as it is to attempt to rehabilitate the youth it serves.
Because the traditional old book-learning techniques of the public schools had
not and would not work with these youngsters, new methods of basic education
had to be designed. There had to be, first, tests designed to identify the educa-
tional deficiencies of the trainees. Then education materials had to be organized
to permit each trainee to pick up his education at whatever level the tests indi-
cated. The materials were organized so that the trainee could study informally
at his own speed, testing himself as he went along, and progressing to the next
level only when he had mastered previous steps. At every level, trainees had a
wide variety of materials from which to choose, and it was keyed to their interests
as well as to their educational capacities.
In order to make sure trainees stayed on track and that the basic education
meshed with the vocational training and work experience, each trainee is exten-
sively counselled throughout his career with Job Corps. In fact, this counselling
is relied upon to tie together the entire Job Corps experience for each trainee.
Since 1964, some 120 Job Corps Centers have been set up in national parks,
Indian reservations, wildlife refuges, reclamation projects, federal lands, admin-
istered by the Bureau of Land Management, and in 46 of the nation's 154 national
forests.
To date close to 200,000 youngsters of all races from the nation's ghettos and
poor rural communities have had the Job Corps experience.
About the National Education Association
The National Education Association, founded in 1857, is the largest profes-
sional organization in the world, and the only all-inclusive national professional
organization of teachers in the U.S. Its twin purposes are "to promote the cause
of education in the U.S. and to elevate the character and advance the interests of
the profession of teaching. It is a voluntary, independent nongovernmental organi-
zation whose policies are determined by it~ 1.2 million members.
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By resolution, NEA has recognized the shortcomings of inner-city education,
and has called for "bold experimentation" and more funds to reorganize school
districts and staffs in order to improve present programs and provide more com-
pensatory education. Its Platform includes a strong statement that there must
be r:ecognition of the special educational needs of disadvantaged Americans in
order that the "problems of inequality of opportunity may be attacked at their
roots."
When Project Interchange was first proposed by NEA's Adult Education
Service Division in November, 1965 the Association warmly welcomed the
prospect of partnership with the Office of Economic Opportunity as one means
toward carrying out goals of its Platform and resolutions. NEA has been an
enthusiastic partner ever since, providing funds, promotion, and personnel to
carry out Project Interchange.
As the partnership moved into its third year, NEA Executive Secretary Sam M.
Lambert expressed deep personal interest in the Project, noting that it was `ne
"that could really make a difference" in the lives of young Americans.
REPORT ON THE FIRST Two YEARS OF PROJECT ACTIVITY 1966-1968,
OEO CONTRACT No. 1305
When, in 1965, the National Education Association developed the intial
proposal for Project Interchange, which subsequently was approved and funded
by the Office of Economic Opportunity, the Job Corps educational program was
being viewed dimly and with considerable skepticism by public school educators
generally. At the same time the Office of Economic Opportunity was being
vociferous in its criticism of the public schools for their failure to provide ade-
quate educational programs for the educationally disadvantaged young men
whom the Job Corps was being established to serve-namely, school dropouts.
The record of the past two and a half years of Project Interchange, compiled
from the views and experiences of teachers, school administrators, and Job Corps
Center directors is graphically presented on these pages. It supports the NEA's
early belief that the newly conceived Job Corps program could have something
to offer the public schools-particularly as its programs related to motivational
techniques and successful practices for working with frustrated, educationally
disadvantaged youngsters-the potential school dropouts.
Project Interchange reinforces beliefs long held by educators that individualized
instruction is essential for many students-and costs more. But it also demon-
strates dramatically that the successful Job Corps practices can be effectively
transferred to schools where programs are being developed for potential dropouts.
As one superintendent of a large city said "Of all the things we are trying-this
effort holds the greatest promise." By the same token those in the Job Corps
who have participated in Project Interchange are now high in their praise of the
contributions of public school teachers to their programs and the promise which
Project Interchange holds for the transfer of their successful practices to the
schools.
The NEA proudly presents this report of pioneering efforts in bridging a
credibility gap through Interchange.
SAM i\1. LAMBERT,
Executive Secretary, National Education Association.
LETTER OF TRANSMITTAL
FEBRUARY 15, 1969.
Mr. BARRY ARGENTO,
Project Manager for OEO Contract No. 1305 (Project Interchange),
Program Development Division,
Job Corps, OEO (Room 717),
Washington, D.C.
DEAR MR. ARGENTO: We are extremely happy to transmit this report of
Project Interchange activities during the two yeras of its existence-1966-68.
This report shows graphically that Job Corps methods and materials do, indeed,
"work" with potential dropouts in our schools. It shows that dropouts can be
prevented, that disenchanted students can be reclaimed, that the teaching
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1696
techniques pioneered by Job Corps Centers are valid in public schools, that public
school teachers are eager to learn these techniques and are enthusiastic about
putting them to work with their students.
The accomplishments of the second year are detailed in this report. These
accomplishments, however, would not have been possible without the first year
of preparation. And the accomplishments wouldn't be really as impressive nor
compelling without the further activities planned for the third year, now in
progress.
The Job Corps educational program has been outstanding in the fight to reclaim
school dropouts. Project Interchange is the only program now operating with the
promise of transferring that Job Corps success to many of our public schools.
ROBERT LUKE,
Executive Secretary,
NEA Division o.f Adult Education Service and Director, Project Interchange.
CARL MINICH,
Coordinator, Project Interchange.
ACKNOWLEDGMENTS
Project Interchange could not have accomplished so much without the un-
stinting aid and cooperation of numerous people and organizations.
Notable among these are staff members of the Office of Economic Opportunity:
Alex Haddon, former Chief of Program Development of the Job Corps; Barry
Argento, currently Chief of Program Development of the Job Corps; John C.
Muntone, of the Community Action Program of OEO; the public information
staff of the Job Corps. Also worthy of mention are the United States Department
of Agriculture and the United States Department of the Interior, who operate
the Civilian Conservation Job Corps Centers.
The vast resources of the NEA, through its numerous divisions and departments,
were frequently channeled to further the Project Interchange effort. For their
significant contributions, special recognition should be given to Dr. Anna Hyer,
Director of the Division of Audio Visual Instruction; Neal Hall, producer of the
filmograph; James Dorland, Associate Director of the Division of Adult Educa-
tion Service, who played an important role in formulating the original Project
proposal, and Robert Stanley, Assistant Coordinator during the second year of
operation. Certainly major help and influence came from Thomas Anderson,
Project Interchange coordinator during the first crucial year of its existence. To
all the above, a.nd numerous others, the Project Interchange staff extends its
appreciation and gratitude.
INTRODUCTION
This was the year!
This was the second year!
This was the year when four local projects were to go . . . and did! This was
the year a substantial increase in teachers trained in Job Corps techniques and
materials was to take place . . . and did! This was the year the ideas behind
Project Interchange would really be tested . . . and were!
This was the year Project Interchange found that Job Corps teaching tech-
niques and materials could be successfully used in the schools. This was the year of
proof.
The first year, 1966-67-in which 21 teachers learned the Job Corps way of
teaching by themselves teaching in Job Corps Centers-was the year of the
"charge_up."**
This second year, 1967-68-in which these same teachers went back home to run
anti-dropout school programs-was the year of the "charge-out."
Item-Seattle, Wash. uses virtually every feature of Job Corps techniques to
reclaim 50 boys from school problems after identifying them as potential dropouts.
Item-Simi, Calif. devises a yardstick of eight factors which cause dropouts in
Simi. Then, using this yardstick to identify potential dropouts-with 80 percent
accuracy-uses Job Corps methods and materials to help them.
Item-Detroit, Mich. sets up special tutoring and work-study program-using
Job Corps methods and materials-for scores of boys and girls.
Item-Washington, D.C. puts Job Corps techniques and materials to use in
teaching out-of-school adults.
**Repo~ed in ..Project Interchange-ist Year Report, October 1967.~
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Item-17 teachers spend the second full year of Project Interchange learning
and teaching in Job Corps Centers.
Item-150 teachers-chosen from 8,500 applicants-spend the summer of 1968
as Project Interchange teachers with the Job Corps.
If the first year was the year of the "charge-up," and the second year was the
year of the "charge-out," the coming year will be the year of the "charge-on."
With a $1.4 million appropriation approved by the Job Corps, the coming year will
be a year of consolidation and expansion.
THE FIRST YEAR
This is the annual report for the second year; but the second year can most
easily be understood in light of the first year. So a few paragraphs of explanation
are in order.
Project Interchange is the brain child of the Division of Adult Education
Service of the National Education Association. Its money comes from the Office
of Economic Opportunity, the anti-poverty agency which finances and runs the
Job Corps, VISTA, Community Action Programs, and a host of other operations.
The Division of Adult Education Service and NEA saw what they believed
were some good things happening in the Job Corps, some things that might prove
useful in the schools. But first school teachers and administrators had to learn
what these things were and how they worked. Then they had to run a test to
find out whether what worked in the Job Corps would also work in the schools.
NEA signed a contract with OEO setting up Project Interchange as a testing
project. Robert Luke, director of the NEA's Division of Adult Education Service,
was named to direct Project Interchange. First, Thomas Anderson was coordinator
and, upon his resignation, Carl Minich succeeded him. They were the real day-to-
day operating chiefs of Project Interchange.
First, Project Interchange canvassed a number of school systems in the nation
to find four willing to take part in the test, willing to send teachers to Job Corps
Centers and, on their return, to set up a test program. The teachers had to be
willing to spend two years in the program-one year of direct interchange, learning
the ways of Job Corps teaching while, at the same time, giving the Job Corps the
benefits of their own educational training and experience, and one year working
in the back-home project.
Simi, Calif., Detroit, Mich., and Seattle, Wash., each sent six teachers to the
Job Corps. Washington, D.C. sent three. Project Interchange paid them the same
salaries they would have received had they remained in their home districts and
agreed to support the special back-home projects.
The teachers were a mixed lot. There were some elementary and high school
teachers. There were vocational and shop teachers, social science teachers, guid-
ance counselors. Most of the teachers were men. They were all experienced in
teaching. Some had been teaching for decades. They were all interested in dis-
advantaged youth and in teaching, and in finding new ways of teaching more to
more young men.
Most of them came from large cities where dropout problems were already
acute. The teachers from Simi-a semi-rural area near Los Angeles-knew their
dropout rate was at the state average but they expected that a heavy influx of
population would drive the rate up higher.
Prior to their Job Corps experience, the teache~rs went through a brief orientation
in order to learn the philosophy of Job Corps teaching, the way Job Corps worked,
what they could expect of the Job Corps and what the Job Corps would expect of
them.
During the ensuing year the teachers taught basic reading and math. They
taught world-of-work, a Job Corps-conceived work-readiness program. They
counseled students, tutored them, advised them, supervised them. They took
them on trips. They set up recreation and hobby programs for them. And they
watched them struggling to learn, struggling with subjects they should have learned
years before in sehool. They saw their students' attitudes change from despair
to delight that they could in the Job Corps, learn the things they knew they
needed-previous experience had taught them that much-to get and to keep a
good job.
The teachers found that their Job Corps students were remarkably similar to
their students back home. But these students had once quit school. Although
they had a variety of reasons, most had left only after stubborn attempts to find
what they felt they needed. They failed to find it and, often in despair, quit the
struggle. Why learn trigonometry when you want to fix cars? What use Shakespeare
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when your need is the sports page? WThat use ancient. European history when your
interest is Negro history?
What has since become known as the dropout problem was at first difficult to
discern. Viewing a forest it's hard to distinguish a single tree. At sea it's difficult to
focus on a single drop. The surroundings affect the vision.
But then the school surroundings changed. More and more students went on to
college. The proportion graduating from high school climbed higher and higher.
And the students who quit school were finally thrown into sharp focus for all to
see.
The schools started asking questions. What was wrong with a million students
each year? Why did they quit? What did they lack? Were they lazy? Were they
dull? Didn't they realize that * * *? After a time the questions began to change.
They now focused on the schools rather than on the students. What did the schools
lack that caused a million students a year to leave? How did the schools fail these
youngsters? All the answers are still not in.
But Project Interchange teachers in the Job Corps found that their students,
all at least 16 years old, had sometimes amazingly low reading and math abilities,
had attitudes that ranged from hopelessness to arrogance. The hopeless ones knew
they were getting another chance-and were afraid they would again fail. The
arrogant ones felt they were giving the system another chance-and were afraid
the system would again fail them.
The system, this time, did not fail. The Job Corps did succeed in providing them
with relevance in their education, did succeed in meeting their individual needs,
did succeed in changing their attitudes in buoying up the hopeless and in softening
the arrogant. The Job Corps didn't succeed every time with every individual but,
like a lifeguard who sometimes succeeds and sometimes fails, tried its best every
time.
THE SECOND YEAR
The Project Interchange teachers identified a number of factors responsible for
the Job Corps successes:
*A new environment-Youngsters were not learning in anything resembling
a school. There was nothing to remind them of former failure. And, unlike
schools, they lived at the Job Corps Centers, were provided free food, clothing
and shelter, free dental and medical care, were even paid for participation.
*Indjvjdualjzed instruction-Programmed materials were widely used.
Some were adapted from those already available and some were created
especially for the Job Corps. The students, after thorough, initial tests, had
their own individual courses of study prescribed for them. They didn't study
what they didn't need. They didn't study what they needed but already
knew. They were not in a brain race to see who was the smartest. Instead,
each student competed only with himself. He was neither pushed beyond
his capacity nor held back from his capabilities. Students were individuals,
not a class.
*ffTorldof.work study-Many of the boys and girls in the Job Corps,
although they had quit school, had never held a job. Some of them didn't
know much about what a job was like, what it entailed: its responsibilities
and its opportunities. They didn't know why they should be on time for a
job or call in when they were ill. They didn't see why they should have to
take orders, why they couldn't decide for themselves what needed to be done.
They didn't know how to go about looking for a job, writing a letter of
application, talking to the personnel man. The Job Corps taught these things
and more in the world-of-work classes.
*Relevant, paid work-Each student had a job in the Job Corps-a real
job for which he was paid a real wage. Maybe the job was cutting roads
or thinning trees or repairing heavy equipment. As his skills increased, so
did the responsibilities he was given and so did his pay.
*Counseljng_E very adult in the Job Corps acted as a counselor in one way
another: the teachers and health staff, the cooks and the carpenters. Each
staff member was responsible for half a dozen students. When student
problems were beyond his capacity, there was always professional help
available.
*An adult atmosphere-Students were not treated like kids. There were
regulations and requirements but the students was much on his own. He was
responsible for his own conduct, his own studies. If he wanted to smoke or get
a cup of coffee, he could. When he wanted to study, the situations and op-
portunity were there.
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These six things, as the Project Interchange teachers saw it, were the primary
ingredients of Job Corps successes. Could those ingredients, could that success,
be transferred to the schools? They'd soon find out. And, while they were finding
out, another 17 teachers would, under Project Interchange (Contract No. 4075),
be teaching and learning in Job Corps Centers.
Here's what happened:
Seattle, Washington
At the opening of the 1967-68 school year, the Seattle Program of Project
Interchange was ensconced in the Wallingford Boys Club, which it took over
almost completely during daytime hours. On the first floor, a large gymnasium
and ping-pong and pooi tables provided relaxation for the boys-eventually, as
the program gained experience, 50 boys were enrolled-during their free periods.
(Gym classes were also regularly scheduled for each boy.) The second floor
meeting rooms in the building were used for classrooms, for study in reading and
math and world-of-work.
Schedules alternated. All the boys were at the Career Planning Center-local
name for the Project Interchange program-during the morning. In the afternoon,
however, while half of the boys remained for classes at the Center, the rest would
go to a forested area about 30 miles away for paid work-training. Under the general
supervision of a teacher but with their own student work leaders, the boys cut
underbrush, felled trees laid out nature trails, built fences and erected an A-frame
shelter to prepare the area for its eventual use as an outdoor laboratory for all
Seattle schools students.
The boys taking part in the Career Planning Center activities, although recom-
mended by their counselors and principals, we reall volunteers. All remained
nominally enrolled ln their home schools but they never had to return for classes.
All their classes-for credit toward graduation-were taken at the Center.
The boys varied in age from 15 to 19 years old. While there were never more
than 50 boys taking part at any one time the total during the year reached 61.
There were 13 dropouts during the year but four of these left school entirely to
take full-time jobs. Eight of every 10 boys came from a family with income below
the poverty level. All were low achievers and judged to be potential dropouts.
On arrival at the Center, the average boy was in the 9th grade but reading
barely above the 5th grade level (5.3 to be exact) and doing math at the 3.9 grade
level. At the conclusion of his work, the average boy had reached the 7th grade
level in reading and the 9.8 grade level in mathematics. And these gains were
made even though because of staggered enrollment, most of the participants did
not put in a full school year at the Center. Even so, five boys, after study at the
Center, received their regular high school diplomas.
The Center went further than teaching boys-it also taught teachers. Staff
members at the Center-on alternate afternoons some teachers had "free" time
since their students were in the forest-were regularly called on to promote in-
service education for other teachers in the philosophy of the Job Corps and in the
use of individualized teaching materials, in how to reach for the interests of
`different' students, in how to relate their studies to the working, practical world
they wished to enter. And the Center distributed some materials itself which
teachers could use.
Richard Case, Seattle team leader, says flatly that "the existence of the Center
has been the most effective element in preventing dropouts in the Seattle School
District. Through these two programs-the in-service training and the dissemina-
tion of materials-bewildered classroom teachers realize that they can do some-
thing, what they can do, and what materials and equipment they will need.
Materials are made available for immediate use to the teachers while they await
the arrival of their then requisitioned supplies. For the first time, schools are
realizing that the potential dropout is their responsibility. . . . The awareness
that something needs to be done and can be done educationally for the non-average
is the biggest, single significant change in the city. . . . The change has not been
limited to Seattle alone. Everett, Wash. has been able to establish a program
tailored after Project Interchange. We have written letters to its superintendent,
loaned materials, given demonstration, and promised continued support.
Case declares that, while the project boosted students academically, for him
the major mark of the program was in the increased self-perception of the boys,
an increased feeling of self-worth, of confidence in their ability to achieve, and an
increased ability to get along with others.
A Seattle teacher reports: "In talking with counselors, teachers, and adminis-
trators in our Seattle District, the one outstanding thing is that they feel this
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(Project Interchange) is, or could be if expanded, the salvation of our educational
system."
Another says: "I have trained approximately 20 teachers in the District in
the use of Job Corps materials. All were very impressed."
For the 1968-69 school year, Seattle is continuing the program, but not in
the Boys Club building. The new Center is in a recnetly abandoned school building
with its won surrounding campus. Already the boys in the Center this year
have started their work-training doing repair work on their own building. And,
so pleased are the Seattle schools with the program, they're planning a three-
fold expansion. When implemented, the program this year is expected to take
in 150 boys, not only at the new campus but possibly at two other satellite
locations.
Simi, California
Although there were, and are, a number of national studies of dropouts, how
sure can you be that these studies have validity in City X? The Simi teaching
team of Project Interchange wasn't sure, either. Before going ahead with their
planned project they wanted to check. They wanted to make sure that students
invited to take part were actually students most likely to drop out, students
most in need of help.
First they went through all the literature. They found 77 factors identified
by researchers as being dropout ingredients. But the various authors could only
agree on 16 of these factors. On only these 16 was the verdict of the authors
unanimous-the factors were associated with dropping out of school.
And still the teachers weren't sure, so they checked further. Going through
the records of Simi droupouts, they found that S of these 16 factors were often
present. And they noted that when 3 of the 8 factors were present in a student's
record, chances were overwhelming he would quit school.
So this became their yardstick for identifying potential dropouts.
The eight factors: (1) high mobility-the student attended at least four different
schools through the 6th grade; (2) family income below $5,000 a year; (3) dis-
cipline-the student was sent to the principal's office at least three times in his
first six years of school; (4) high absenteeism; (5) average grades below "C" in the
4th, 5th and 6th grades; (6) health problems; (7) personality-notations in the stu-
dent's permanent file that he was a non-participant, withdrawn, without friends;
and (8) parents' education-father or mother did not finish high school.
Since the Simi Project Interchange was headquartered at Center Junior High
School, the team invited thirty-four 8th graders-each with high potential for
quitting as judged by the eight factors-to take part in the project. Parental
permission was also sought. Only three students did not join. Of those who did,
not one dropped out.
Many of the students were able to carry on their normal school schedules, com-
ing to Project Interchange for special help in troublesome subjects. Students with
particular troubles in reading and math were switched from their regular classes
and took all their work with Project Interchange, using the Job Corps' programmed
study materials. A world-of-work study program was also available to them.
Meanwhile, the project teachers were meeting often with parents. Initially the
meetings were to explain the focus of Project Interchange and what it hoped to
accomplish, how it hoped to help their children. Later sessions reported on the prog-
ress of Project Interchange and the progress of the children and the project teachers
discussed with them the further needs of their children. Sometimes the children's
needs were not perceived or understood by their parents, and the teachers at-
tempted to help parents penetrate the generation gap in their homes.
In addition, the Simi teachers launched an intensive campaign to let other
teachers in the district know what was happening. Using colored pictures taken
by team members during their year with the Job Corps, the Simi team prepared
a filmstrip which was used extensively in and outisde the district to explain
Job Corps teaching methods and materials and what the Job Corps itself was like.
While Project Interchange (under that title) no longer exists in Simi, programs
similar to it have been launched in two junior high schools; Job Corps math
materials are being partially used by the math department; Job Corps math and
reading programs are being used in special classes for problem learners; and
counseling for potential dropouts has been intensified. For the first time this year
Simi has put guidance counselors in the elementary schools.
And the 20 boys and 11 girls in the program: how did they make out?
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One indication was attendance. Eight students did not have an attendance
problem to begin with. Of the other 23, improved attendance was noted for 18, no
improvement was recorded for 4, and a continued nosedive in attendance was
recorded for 1 student.
And, more important perhaps, in only 55 days of study (because study mate-
rials arrived late) the average achievement increase-for both reading and
math-was a full year.
Detroit, Michigan
Sixty students-all 10th graders, all at least 16 years old-volunteered for the
extra time and work involved with participation in Project Diploma, as the
Detroit program of Project Interchange was dubbed.
What they found when they mounted the stairs of a former automobile agency
across the street from Northern High School was catch-up help in reading and
math, individual and group counseling and discussion, a world-of-work program,
and. some paid clerical work-training. All this was in addition to their regular
classes in the school across the street.
While 20 of the students left the program during the year, another 10 joined
after Project Diploma was underway. Of those who left, 15 were in a time-money
bind and quit to take full- or part-time work. Of those who remained, many
improved their grades in regular school subjects.
As in Simi, the special study materials needed arrived late so for most of the
year the Project Diploma teachers did what they had sometimes had to do in the
Job Corps-improvise. When the study materials did arrive, however, their
advantages prompted two other schools in the Detroit system to order their own.
A local firm is also experimenting with the materials as a means of upgrading
employee skills.
Washington, D.C.
Adult students ranged from 16 to 87 years old in Project CALL-the local
Project Interchange program-at Armstrong Adult Education Center. None were
in any regular school program outside of the Community Adult Learning Labora-
tory (CALL). During the year there were 395 such students who came for help
anywhere between 8 n.m. and 10 p.m.
There were 33 dropouts from Project CALL during the year. Another 53
entered full-time employment, 1 entered military service, 43 passed clerical or
Civil Service tests, 2 passed GED high school equivalency tests, 17 got their
regular high school diplomas, and 3 entered college.
During the six-month terms the average reading increase was one year, and the
average math increase was two years.
Not all of the students were unemployed when they came to CALL. Those
who were, wanted the basics of reading and math in order to help them get better
jobs. Those already working felt they had greater potential than their jobs indi-
cated, but they wanted more education to make that potential worthwhile.
What they got through Project CALL was a concentrated reading-math pro-
gram alone or merged into their other vocational studies at the adult center. After
joining Project CALL, 50 of the vocational students improved their grades
in their other studies.
Some students were so enthused over the help they received that they went
out and recruited other students. Some even distributed Project CALL brochures
at their churches. Project CALL also served as a resource for community school
planning by the Anacostia Community Council and helped train personnel for the
city's federally-funded Adult Education Demonstration Center.
OTHER PROJECT INTERCHANGE ACTIVITIES
Evaluations
On-site checks of how Project Interchange is working have been made frequently
by staff members of the Project from the Job Corps office and from the National
Education Association. In addition, evaluation forms have been distributed to
participating teachers to get an indication of the strengths and weakness of the
program.
Some written comments from Project Interchange participants and Job Corps
Center Directors follow:
"Job Corps program does serve as an excellent training area for public schools
interested in working with the potential dropout."
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"I feel that this experience will make me a better and more concerned teacher.
I did not realize just how often our public education system really does fail."
"I hope in some way I can get the message to my fellow co-workers how much
it means to be sincere on the job."
"I feel that I learned more than I gave. To be sitting beside a C/M the same age
as my daughter, who is a college senior, and be reading `Am I an ant?' was enough
to almost tear me apart at times. But, when progress is made here, it is colossal
progress."
"To me, the knowledge I have gained has been more valuable than attending a
-university could possibly have been. The practical, everyday experiences and new
methods and techniques could not have been learned in a make-believe situation
*or taken from books."
"This was one of the most challenging experiences that I have had in all my
1~wenty-five years of teaching."
"I hope I have made and will continue to make contributions in support of Job
Corps and its purpose."
"I think I will now have a better understanding of how to work with the slow
rtudent."
"An invaluable opportunity for those of us in public education."
"I felt like the Center was very efficiently operated-much better than most
government programs I have observed."
"Becoming `color blind' has been great."
"Enjoyed very much this unequalled training and teaching experience."
"I was made aware of profound needs of students who cannot survive public
education."
"I experienced total commitment for the first time in my life."
"I did not know that there were so many young men who have been given high
school diplomas with only a third-grade education."
"I wish all public school teachers could have experienced what I have experi-
enced this summer. I believe they would think twice before they push Johnny
aside and say that he can't learn. I have watched girls who could barely read or
write, learn to read rather well and write fairly well in eight weeks time."
"We are hopeful that this program will be continued for another season."
"I feel that the exchange has been highly beneficial to our Job Corps Center.
In summation, I would like to recommend continuation of this program with the
same obviously careful screening in future years."
"This Center is certainly appreciative of the cooperation of the NEA. The only
complaint this Center has about the program was that it was too short."
"We are convinced that interchange projects of this nature definitely rebound
to the mutual benefit of all. Our two teachers indicate to us that they have learned
a great deal from their experience here that will be useful to them when they re-
turn to their respective schools. We are confident that they will be an effective
influence in the matter of dealing with potential dropouts. We were aided im-
mensely by their presence in our Center. Since we operate a year-around program
and are not authorized to hire substitute teachers, the summer months are made
very burdensome by teachers taking their annual leaves, which are their just due.
As a result of * and * efforts, we have managed to maintain our
regular education schedule and maintain our usual level of education progress
this summer.
"We have forwarded through channels a request that should an agreement be con-
summated between NEA and Job Corps for the assignment of teachers to centers
on an annual basis, that our Center be given consideration for the assignment of a
teacher and a counselor. As you see, we are very enthusiastic about the mutual
benefit derived from this interchange program. We appreciate the opportunity to
respond to your inquiry and state our pleasure with the program."
"We sincerely feel learned a great deal from us and we know that he
will continue to be an asset in his school armed with this new-found knowledge."
"This country's educational system is definitely on the upswing with the organi-
zations of NEA and OEO backing teachers such as ."
"We are quite sure that their experiences have been rewarding. From talking to
them and their supervisor, they were very skeptical about the total Job Corps pro-
gram upon entering and mostly pessimistic about the corpsmen themselves. After
eight weeks of teaching in the Job Corps program, their whole frame of mind has
been very positive to the program and to the corpsmen."
*NameS omitted to preserve confidential nature of response.
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1703
"If the people assigned through the NEA/OEO project throughout the country
are as effective as the project is certainly successful. I hope it can becon-
tinued in future summers, as I know it has been of benefit to our center and, I am
sure takes a better understanding of poverty background dropouts baok to
her public school instruction."
"From our point of view, made the Project 100 (150) a success. I only
hope he took away as much as he brought to our program."
Seminars
The first seminar, held November 27-29, 1967, at the NEA building in Washing-
ton, D.C., was limited to the first 21 teachers, their superintendents from Simi,
Seattle, Detroit, and Washington, D.C., plus NEA, OEO and Project Interchange
staff members. It was designed to provide an interchange of experiences and ideas
because, by that time, each of the four local projects was already well into its
activities.
During the seminar, the teachers and their superintendents described for each
other what they were doing back home, pursued ideas they received from others at
the seminar, got together in workgroups to discuss how Project Interchange might
bolster their programs and how they themselves might do the same thing, de-
scribed what they viewed as the strengths and weaknesses of the Job Corps, of
Project Interchange, and of their own programs.
The second seminar, October 13-16, 1968 at the Hotel Westward Ho in Phoenix,
Arizona, (funded under OEO Contract #4075) was the high point of Project
Interchange's second year. This seminar, unlike the first, was not limited to
teachers and administrators. They were all there, of course-the 21 teachers from
the first year, the 17 teachers from the second full year, and 147 from the shorter
summer experience in Job Corps-and the top administrators from their home
school districts. But there were, in addition, representatives of about 40 national
organizations concerned with education and with dropouts.
There were several purposes behind the seminar. One, of course, was to give
the teachers a chance for professional interchange of their own. Another, and
possibly more important, was to inform the numerous school administrators,
who had had no previous connection with the Job Corps, what it was all about
and how Job Corps teaching materials-as proved by the local Project Inter-
change programs-might help them provide enriched education programs for
their students back home.
And Project Interchange wanted to do the same thing with the organizational
representatives-inform them about the Job Corps and its educational materials
in hopes that their organizations would institute programs of their own to promote
extension of Job Corps techniques into the schools.
It wasn't that either the administrators or organizations resisted the idea of
helping potential dropout students. They had tried. But here was another way.
And perhaps the seminar would provide them with enough information about the
Job Corps program so they could make a judgement.
So the Job Corps moved several tons of materials and exhibits into the hotel.
It sent in training experts from its Washington headquarters and from Job Corps
Centers around the country. They set up a special information program at the
seminar for administrators and organization representatives. The trainers went
over Job Corps philosophy and materials with the superintendents and repre-
sentatives. The results seem promising. There were questions and arguments.
There was skepticism and pessimism. But eventually there was understanding
and even optimism.
Meanwhile, the teachers were in intensive work sessions of their own, trading
ideas, suggesting questioning. They examined their Job Corps training and teaching
experience to see how it all could be improved. They described their back-home
activities after the teaching stints in the Job Corps. They did a little dreaming
about what schools should be like, how American education should be changed.
There was plenty of chance for mixing, for teachers and administrators and
organization representatives to get together. There were sessions at the seminar
especially scheduled to provide this, of course, but there were also the informal
meetings at lunch or dinner or at coffee breaks.
There were few formal speeches. John Sullivan, assistant executive secretary of
NEA for Communications and Public Relations, and Robert Young, now in
private business but former OEO associate director for plans and programs,
joined in praising Job Corps and Project Interchange operations. Their remarks
were followed by a panel discussion by Robert Luke, director of Project Inter-
change and director of the NEA Division of Adult Education Service; Barry
PAGENO="0272"
1704
Argento, th6n chief of the Job Corps branch of staff resources and behavior
management and since promoted to head the Job Corps program development
division; and David Paynter, school superintendent at Simi, Calif., when the
Project Interchange program was instituted there and now superintendent of
schools in Garden Grove, Calif.
At the final, seminar luncheon Forbes Bottomley, superintendent of schools
in Seattle, Wash., described the Project Interchange program there, what it had
done and where it was going, and declared unequivocally that, of all the programs
Seattle had tried to reclaim potential dropouts, Project Interchange had been-
by far-the most successful.
Dissemination
Any project may be successful but, unless others know of its success and are
stimulated to emulate that success, the effects of the project will not be widespread.
So getting the word out on Project Interchange, what it was doing and where
and how and why and who was involved, was given some priority. The dissemina-
tion took three forms: the seminars; the production of a sound-and-color film about.
Interchange and its four local projects, called "INTERCHANGE: New Tech-
niques to Help Potential Dropouts"; and publicity ranging from TV interviews
with Job Corps and Interchange officials to stories about the project in a number
of newspapers and professional publications.
To date more than 300 public school systems throughout the country have
viewed or are scheduled to view the color film on Project Interchange, and
additional requests are being received daily.
In addition, articles describing Project Interchange and its accomplishments
have appeared in newspapers and on TV stations in Seattle and Phoenix as well
as in numerous educational journals among which are the following:
New York State
Ohio Schools
Washington Education
North Carolina Education
2VEA Reporter
california Teachers Association Journal
The School Administrator of the American Association of School Admin-
istrators
The Washington Memo
NAPSAE Pulse
NEA's Today
Audiovisual Instruction
Adult Leadership
Job Corps-Stafl Newsletter
Staff and Housing
As Project Interchange has grown, the staff, too, has grown. And as the staff
has grown the offices have had to grow. Project Interchange began with a coordi-
nator and a secretary in a small, two-room office in the NEA building. This year,
the project has added to its staff an assistant coordinator and another secretary,
and has moved to larger quarters.
Because of space limitations in the NEA building, the office has since had to
move to larger quarters in the Coyne Building, 15th and M Streets, N.W. Wash-
ington, D.C. 20005.
Reports
Five major reports, including this one, have been prepared and distributed to
fuffill the contract requirements for deliverable items. They are:
1. First Year Report (limited distribution).
2. 1967 Seminar Summary (limited distribution).
3. 1968 Round-up Seminar Summary (wide distribution).
4. Final Report (Photographic essay; wide distribution).
5. Final Report (Official document; limited distribution).
Financing
Funds for Project Interchange have been provided by the Job Corps and the
Community Action Program of the OEO. Approximately $1.2 million has been
spent on Project Interchange during the first two years (covered by this report)
and an additional $1.4 mffiion wifi be spent during the coming year for an esti-
mated total expenditure of $2.6 million on Project Interchange from May 1966
through February 1970.
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1705
A cost summary for the two-year period covered by this report follows:
Summary of costs for OEO contract No. 1305
Salaries and related payroll costs:
Staff $57, 692. 99
Teachers 519, 071. 50
Transportation and relocation costs 60,555.83
Training 21, 838. 70
Consultants 2, 550. 00
Promotion, dissemination and public information 36, 184. 74
Other administrative expenses 12, 249. 02
Total expenditures to Dec. 31, 1968 710, 142. 78
Anticipated expense to June 30, 1969 15, 000. 00
Total anticipated expense 725, 142. 78
Amount budgeted for OEO contract No. 1305 741, 903. 00
Anticipated unexpended balance 16, 760. 22
Looking ahead
On November 8, 1968 a new contract was signed which provided additional
funds for Project Interchange through February 1970 to finance five tasks: (1)
sending 50 teachers ~o Job Corps Centers for one year; (2) sending 150 teachers to
Job Corps during the summer of 1969; (3) holding week-long work-shops in Job
Corps teaching techniques and materials for 200 public school teachers; (4)
evaluating Project Interchange operations; and (5) disseminating reports of all
activities.
The three maj or tasks are described in greater detail below:
I. Methods and materials workshops.-The national Education Association will
sponsor during 1969 eight to ten invitational, week-long workshops in regionally
located large cities (such as Washington, D.C.; Los Angeles, Seattle, Wash.; St.
Louis, Mo.; Cleveland, Ohio; Buffalo, N.Y., etc.) for the purpose of providing
selected public school teachers, instructional supervisors, curriculum specialists,
and administrators with an intensive orientation to Job Corps materials and
methods in such areas as teaching the basic skills, individualized instruction,
intensive counseling and student-teacher relationships. Each conference will be
limited to about 25 participants.
II. One year teaching experience with disadvantaged youth.-NEA is now recruit-
ing for placement by January 15, 1969, 50 teachers for one year's inservice educa-
tion experience in Job Corps conservation Centers. The period of service will
extend from the beginning of the second semester of the 1969 school year through
the first semester of the following year. School districts will be reimbursed for
the full costs of teacher's salaries and fringe benefits.
III. Summer teaching experience with disadvantaged youth.-NEA will begin
recruiting in January 1969, 150 teachers for placement for two months teaching
experiences in Job Corps Centers (both Urban and Conservation) during the
summer of 1969.
Dr. MINICH. I would like to make a very brief statement in closing.
I have been in education as a teacher and administrator for 40 years.
And I have never seen a program that holds as much potential, as
much promise for the potential dropouts in our schools, the kids who
are in trouble, the kids who have flunked out, potential dropouts,
pushouts, call them what you may. But they are educationally dis-
advantaged, they are frustrated young men and so much of our time in
the public school effort is given to the talented, the college-bound
youngster.
We have guidance programs and counseling programs for these
young men and women and many scholarships are given, much finan-
cial reward is provided, but so little is done for this other guy at the
bottom of the heap. Partially because we don't know, we have not
known how to do it, and partially because we have not had the
financial resources to pour into these lower echelon people.
27-754-69-pt. 3-18
PAGENO="0274"
1706
So I say it is a thrilling experiment we have been engaged in for 3
years and I think we have had wonderful testimony here from teachers
who have spoken eloquently of what Interchange has done for them
as people. We can see what they have contributed to the Job Corps.
Equally we have heard fine expressions from administrators. This
is what Project Interchange is all about, the fact that the Job Corps
has discovered techniques for motivating young men of this caliber.
They have devised techniques for holding them and devised tech-
niques which are transferable to the public schools, its environment,
and they are listed here in the testimony: Early identification of these
people, changing their environment, intensive counsel, programed in-
struction, individualized instruction, and intensive counseling involv-
ing parents. These are the kinds of things that are transferable. These
are the kinds of things that are going on.
The trouble is, we are just making a start. We have been in it 3
years. I believe the Job Corps program was begun as an experimental
program. Project Interchange was, too.
When you are dealing with human lives and resources, you don't
prove much in 3 years. It takes time to find out what is happening with
people in their lives and then to begin to evaluate it.
We don't think that 3 years is long enough for Project Interchange.
We don't believe the time that Job Corps has been in existence has
been long enough. I for one and the people with me in Project Inter-
change firmly urge the extension of the Economic Opportunity Act
for the next 5 years, to demonstrate more completely and fully the
worthiness of these projects, particularly the Job Corps.
The years it has been in existence, 3 years, has not been enough
time. The 3 years that the Project Interchange has been in existence
has developed this way. The first year there were 21 teachers and four
schools, the second year there were 167 teachers and 100 schools, the
third year, this year, we expect to have 650 teachers and more than 100
more schools. So that after 3 years we will have 838 teachers and 204
school systems in this Nation, involving 49 States.
Dreamers, perhaps we are, that we can make this kind of an impact
on public education. Maybe we can't change all public education, but
we have made a tremendous step so far in the 3 years we have had it.
We hope we can go on and the promise is great, the potential is there,
but if Job Corps is extremely reduced or eliminated, phased out,
Project Interchange will die also.
We think we have much to offer to the children of our Nation in our
public schools by working closely with the Job Corps people in this
project and we urge the extension of this act to provide and continue
to provide this opportunity.
Thank you.
Chairman PERKINS. Dr. Minich, I don't think I have ever heard a
more concise, to the point statement than the one you just made. I
agree with every word that you have stated. We have just touched the
surface in the 3 years to obtain the knowledge and know-how that we
need to transmit to our public educational system.
We have not even experimented and obtained the know-how to the
point that we should, and I hope that we can get this message across.
We are doing our darnedest.
I don't know how far we are going to get, but I feel just as you, that
we have made a great start. Now, it seems they want to turn their
PAGENO="0275"
1707
backs on these youngsters. Maybe through convincing statements like
you have just made, we may be able to persuade the Secretary not to
turn his back on the problem children that the Job Corps is presently
serving. I wonder if you agree with me that the facilities are even now
too limited for this type of youngsters?
Dr. MINICH. I cannot cite figures from the employment services
about the number of youngsters who are available and seeking places
in Job Corps centers. But from my knowledge of schools, I know
what the dropout rates are there. I have included some of those figures
here and if we were to try to accommodate most of the people who are
dropping out of our schools in our urban centers and in our suburban
and rural areas, we would need far more facilities than we have now
to adequately take care of the dropouts.
Our hope, of course, is that through projects such as this we can
prevent the dropouts and, as has been stated earlier, if our project
were 100 percent successful, Job Corps could be phased out. We
could retain the potential dropouts and do an effective job with them.
But we know this is not so. The dropout rate is high. There are
many of these youngsters leaving school ill-equipped to hold jobs
because of their lack of basic education and training and Job Corps
programs will be needed, not only in cities but conservation centers
where they are removed to new environments, where they are in
residential living situations.
Chairman PERKINS. To what extent have programs like Project
Interchange touched the entire public school system? About 10 or 15
percent?
Dr. MINICH. I cannot give you the percentage. I know it is a small
percentage that we have so far touched on in terms of 838 school
systems where Project Interchange has been directly involved in
terms of the tens of thousands of school systems in the United States.
However, in addition to our effort, I do know that Job Corps materials,
program instruction materials have been made available to several
thousand schools without the training that we have been giving them,
so that my figures don't represent a true percentage of the impact on
public schools. We have to add other factors in.
Chairman PERKINS. What I am trying to show is that this Job
Corps would train for itself if we let this knowledge be transmitted
throughout this Nation to the public schools so that they would be
better equipped to know how to deal with this problem youngster and
stop the dropouts at an early age, am I correct?
Dr. MINICH. I think you are right. I think I could respond more
directly to your question by saying that one of the major objectives
of our program is dissemination of information, not oniy limited to
participation of these teachers in Job Corps centers, but dissemination
of information about what we are doing.
Fifteen thousand copies of these kinds of materials are being mailed
to every school superintendent in the United States of America. The
film which we have prepared called "Interchange New Techniques for
Potential Dropouts," has now been viewed by more than 500 school
systems in the Nation in 48 States.
So our program of dissemination is spreading the word, even though
we are not involving teachers in all of these through experiences,
teaching experiences. We are, through our program of dissemination,
telling about Project Interchange and getting very favorable responses.
PAGENO="0276"
1708
Chairman PERKINS. You can talk with the vocationa.l educators.
I have asked the question time and time again here. They frankly
tell you that they do not have the know-how in their regular school
systems to deal with the problem child that we are dealing with in the
Job Corps centers. And I want to ask you, as an educator, whether
we have the facilities available anywhere to your knowledge or any
residential skill centers to give the training to the youngster that the
Job Corps is now serving that can take the place of the Job Corps?
Dr. MINICH. To, my knowledge, we have no such centers.
Chairman PERKINS. Dr. Paynter, I would like to ask you that
question likewise.
Dr. PAYNTER. I think I would have to agree that we don't have
these facilities available.
Chairman PERKINS. Dr. Breit?
Mr. BREIT. I would concur in their statement that I am not aware
of any that would be available for that purpose.
Chairman PERKINS. Dr. Hassel?
Dr. HASSEL. I agree, we don't have them available.
Chairman PERKINS. The other gentleman?
Mr. NELSON. I agree also.
Chairman PERKINS. You may ask the witness questions, Mr.
Steiger.
Mr. STErnER. According to the information you have provided,
you have a contract with OEO, am I correct, which involves the sum
of money of $3,110,193.50?
Dr. MINICH. That is correct.
Mr. STEIGER. And the contract was signed in 1967?
Dr. MINICH. The first one was. 1966. There have been three con-
tracts altogether in each succeeding year.
Mr. STEIGER. What was the amount for each of the contracts or
is the $3,100,000 the total amount, so it is about $1 mfflion per year?
Dr. MINICH. No. What figure are you referring to-in my state-
ment?
Mr. STEIGER. Yes, on page 4 of your backup material.
Dr. MINICH. That is a sum total of the 3 years.
Mr. STEIGER. According to the information you have provided, you
have placed about 200 public school teachers for varying periods of
times in Job Corps centers.
Chairman PERKINS. That figure is out of line.
Dr. MINICH. This report is a report of a seminar which was held last
November and took into account the first 2 years. The number actually
placed now is closer to 388.
Mr. STEIGER. You have thus used 388 public school teachers in
the Project Interchange program who have under the program taught
in a Job Corps center for a period of time and then have returned to
their local school system.
Dr. MINIOn. That is correct.
Mr. STEIGER. And the costs for that are borne by Project Inter-
change, is that correct?
Dr. MINICH. That is correct.
Mr. STEIGER. In other words, the local school system doesn't pay
the salary of the teacher during the time she teaches at the Job
Corps center?
PAGENO="0277"
1709
Dr. MINI0H. That's right. The Job Corps teacher is paid through
our contract.
Mr. STEIGER. That would be in the third year, and you are coming
up to a fourth year of Proj ect Interchange. Has that been funded by
OEO?
Dr. MINIcH. No, it has not. We have not developed proposals for
the coming year, because of our uncertainty as to direction, guidelines,
potential and what-not. We have ideas of what we would like to do,
but we have not been proposed nor awarded.
Mr. STEIGER. When would you be in a position to go to OEO on
the question of funding a fourth year of Proj ect Interchange?
Dr. MINICH. They always say no or say we are not in business any
longer. We hope to do it relatively soon. We have been so busily
engaged in developing the proj ect this year that we have not made
that formal statement.
Mr. STEIGER. When you talk about this year's project, you are
talking about the summer of 1969 and the fall of 1969, school year of
1969-70, am I correct?
Dr. MINIcH. That's right.
Mr. STEIGER. How many teachers are involved in the Interchange
project at this time on Job Corps centers?
Dr. MINICH. We have 17 teachers now in centers, 12 of whom are
being relocated and transferred as a result of the changes anticipated.
We have 34 1-year teachers signed up for entry as soon as this school
year ends, June 23. They will enter their period of service in the Job
Corps center beginning June 23.
Two of these teachers have already backed away because of the
unfavorable image and publicity being given Job Corps, but we will
be replacing them. We also have 150 teachers signed up for the
summer program. So that would be 150, plus 50 about 200, who will
be engaged this year.
Mr. STEIGER. You have, then, what would be 150 who are on board
just for the 3 months of the summer?
Dr. MINICH. That's right.
~\/1r. STEIGER. The end of the school to the beginning of their next
school year. What do these 150 teachers do?
~\~1r. MINICH. I didn't get the last question.
Mr. STEIGER. What do those teachers do?
Dr. MINIcH. They spend 1 week in orientation, getting ready for
their experience in the Job Corps center, orientation into materials
and the type of individuals they will be dealing with. Then they spend
the full 8 weeks at the center, teaching mostly basic education.
We stipulate that the person be a teacher. We don't care what grade
level or what subject they have taught formerly, because we believe
that within a space of time of 1 week we can take a teacher who is an
experienced teacher and give them the background with program
instructional materials as set up by the Job Corps, plus insights into
the techniques for dealing with corpsmen and make them effective
teachers in Job Corps settings.
This theory has proven out quite well so that these people get a full
8-weeks experience, most of them teaching either reading, mathe-
matics, world of work, or language and study skills. A few of them may
PAGENO="0278"
1710
be diverted to the professional aspect of teaching in which they are
most skilled if there is a need for that kind of experience as exists in the
center.
Mr. STEIGER. That is interesting. How does that correlate with the
answers that were given by the teachers, that they were not equipped
after 17 years, 10 years?
Dr. MINICH. Our universities and colleges are not preparing our
young teachers for this kind of teaching.
Mr. STEIGER. But in 1 week you can?
Dr. MINICH. We are dealing with a very select group of people who,
first of all, have been sufficiently motivated to volunteer to come to
part of this experiment. This is a motivation on their part. They know
how to teach and we simply provide them with the tools for teaching
in a Job Corps center.
Where the great experience comes in is during the 8 weeks they are
there or the year that they are in the center, where they are really
beginning to get the depth of understanding and insights into these
kinds of dropouts. It is programed instruction, you see, that is the
mainstay here.
Mr. STEIGER. I understand that. I am having some great difficulty
in assessing how we put these two together. If in fact the public
schools, as the teachers who testified before you said, are not equipped
to handle this target population, if that is accurate, and, therefOre, it
is essential that we go to Job Corps to provide the kind of experiences
that the young men and women can have that will help them over-
come the handicaps of the public school system, I suppose one ought
then to come to the conclusion that we should have three separate
school systems, is that correct?
Dr. MINICH. No, I believe not, sir.
Mr. STEIGER. You don't think we should have a preschool school
system and then the regula.r school system and then for those that
drop out of the regular school system, a separate school system?
Dr. MINIcH. I think we need the separate school system if you
want to call the Job Corps the school system. We need this now in
light of our present dilemma. I think I might have shared your concern
several years ago.
But I see what is happening in a residential setting when these
people can't be provided for in ways that have been tried which the
school systems of this Nation have not had the opportunity of trying.
The Office of Economic Opportunity made it possible for the Job Corps
to take the best of research. Educators have been talking about
research and doing research for a good many years, but they have
never had the managerial capacity or the opportunity because they
have been bound by tradition.
They have not had the opportunity to put many of these experi-
mental things into* practice. The Job Corps can take the best of
research, put it together in one program, find out what worked and
what did not. That is why it is experimental.
Some of the things have fallen by the wayside. They have said,
"These are not good." But some things have emerged that are good
and now we are saying, "These can be transferred to the schools.
The schools can now use them. They have been tested. They have
been checked out. They will cost more money, however."
PAGENO="0279"
1711
This kind of individualized instruction for these kinds of people
isn't carried on in the classroom with 30 students with lecture method
and so on. These kinds of individualized programs which the Job
Corps has developed and proven successful can be transferred to the
schools if the schools are provided the opportunity and the money to
carry them out.
Mr. STEIGER. All right. Then perhaps this clarifies this question,
doesn't it? It isn't a question that the public schools have failed. It is
that the public schools have not had the financial resources to carry
on some of these programs. Is that more accurate?
Dr. MINIcH. I believe that would be accurate. I would like to have
the panel respond to that. But that would be my assessment.
Mr. STErnER. Does the panel agree with that?
Dr. PAYNTER. I think I made a similar statement, Mr. Congress-
man. Actually, the funds available to the school districts do not pro-
vide the opportunity for residential centers which I emphasize there
is a great need. This is certainly something, if we did have, we would
have to have another ingredient and that is a location in which we
could place these people-Forest Service. Federal land has served well
in the conservation areas.
I think residential centers in some of these areas plus the urban
centers are a possibility. But we certainly don't have the funds. We
are not getting the funds from the Federal Government or locally
for this.
Mr. STEIGER. Let me follow up on that point, if I may, Dr. Paynter.
Do you agree with the analysis of the Secretary of Labor that "One
central idea is that complete residential for the target population. The
assumption is that the youth are so hampered by disruptive home
conditions that they need a totally new environment in order to learn
or acquire skills."
Do you agree with that?
Dr. PAYNTER. I don't if I gathered the whole intent of it. I have
not read that statement. I think that my answer would be simply I
believe that a residential center is essential for these students that
are in Job Corps and without it, I think we are not going to be able
to complete the job.
The other portion is that the level of these students at the present
time in communities throughout the country are such that we can't
handle them in the public schools without an extensive change in the
program. I would hope that we could phase out Job Corps by some of
the learning we are getting from Job Corps that we can change
the education program in our public schools with additional funds
and then provide and keep that student in school with successes,
with good efforts that I think we know how to do now through some
of the things that have been given to us through Job Corps.
Mr. STEIGER. Would you agree that not all of those who are
serviced now in Job Corps require complete residential services?
Dr. PAYNTER. My own opinion is, and I have observed and been
in 35 centers, that the majority of them, well over the majority of
them, probably 75 percent could not be saved really and changed
in terms of their personal outlook and save for society without a
residential program.
There are some students that are in the centers that I am sure
could be.
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1712
Mr. STEIGER. So that about 25 percent, you would indicate, do not
require the complete residential service. It is also fair to say that
those who are serviced by Job Corps do not need to go 500 or 1,000
miles from their home to get a residential training facility?
Dr. PAYNTER. May I answer the 25 percent? This is an estimate
on my part. But I would say in terms of the 25 percent, the type of
student we are dealing with, I think we can do a better job in a residen-
tial center. Possibly they could be helped in a local community, but I
thmk we can do a better job and that is what I am looking at.
Mr. STEIGER. Is it necessary for them to be transported 500 or
1,000 miles from home to get the residential training?
Dr. PAYNTER. No, it is not, providing you don't close down all the
centers in California, which is the design. If they do that, there is no
place to go over 500 miles in California. To get out of the state practi-
cally you have to go at least 200.
Mr. STErnER. Yes, I am sure that is true, not knowing the mileage
in California very well. You don't have to go very far and you have
reached 500 miles in California.
Dr. PAYNTER. That's right.
Mr. STEIGER. Is it also accurate or fair to assume that those who
are serviced by Job Corps have a problem when they return to the
home community, if the training that they have received is not related
to the opportunities that exist for employment when they return home?
Dr. PAYNTER. I think it would be an accurate statement to say that
any student returning from a good experience such as Job Corps has
been, going back into the same ghet~to area, would find it difficult to
adjust to that community. However, I think the facts borne out in
the statistics is that they don't often return and stay in that area.
They will return possibly because this is his home.
But then because of the skills they have gained and the challenges
to their lives and the fact they can be successful, they will seek out
the place of success. They won't stay in that area very long.
I think this has been borne out in the figures of the results of Job
Corps.
Mr. STEIGER. The figures indicate this quite clearly and as you know,
Job Corps also very directly encourages them to return to their
home community. In addition to that, you have, it seems to me,
another problem along the lines that you have raised on the conserva-
tion centers.
You, in your statement, are very critical of the closing of con-
servation centers, but it is within the setting of the conservation cen-
ters that the training has been most inadequate for the skill training,
has been weakest and where, in fact, the experience that the young
man has is that which least equips him to return to the technological
society in which he eventually must live.
Dr. PAYNTER. I would take complete issue with that, Congress-
man, because I believe that the main skill of the conservation centers
actually give to the young person is that of living with people. This
is the problem of this group of youth. They are not able to live with
people. They are secure only with their small group called the ghetto,
call it what you want, and when they get the feeling and the under-
standing of how to live with people, I think they have gained far
PAGENO="0281"
1.713
more than the skill which they would learn of a specific skill nature,
because this skill may turn around and not be there as far as
a job within 2 or 3 years.
But when they have learned that they can succeed, I think that
they can come back into the community and when they come back
into the community, they are not going to come back into the com-
munity that they have known before. It will be a different community,
even the same community, they are different and they are going to
contribute and get into a skill area.
I think this is borne out also by facts. We see it in the schools.
Mr. STEIGER. But you understand that the purpose of Job Corps,
the specific purpose for which Job Corps was created by the Congress
in 1964, was to provide training and education for disadvantaged
young men and women.
Dr. PAYNTER. That's right.
Mr. STEIGER. Your purpose is not the purpose of Job Corps. It
may be a supplementary purpose. It may be one of those things for
which we ought to strive. But this is the reason that I happen to be as
strong in support of closing the conservation centers because if this is
what we want, if we want a program to provide social upbringing, social
maturity for a young man or woman, then you don't need a Job Corps
in which to do that.
You can provide residential settings, you can provide training, but it
then misses the point for which the Job Corps was created.
Dr. PAYNTER. My reply would be simply this: Job Corps was
established for education and the training for a job. This is very true.
However, a boy who reads at less than the third grade level is not
going to get that kind of a job and the boy is not going to or a girl is
not going to improve in this reading skill until he recognizes the success
in his overall life.
This has to go hand in hand. You don't learn to read until you learn
to accept yourself and people with whom you live. When they then
learn to read, then the skills come naturally. So I do not believe that
Job Corps is outside of the provision of the act. I think it is inside and
doing an excellent job.
Mr. STEIGER. Yet, you are here criticizing the fact that some of
these centers are being closed when, in fact, the reading gain, at
Hoksey is .67-I mean the math gain, the math gain at Finner
Canyon is 1.64, the reading gain is 1.48, 1.94, 1.33, 1.51, 1.15. You
have the kid at Catoctin that has been there for 3 months being
trained for what? Being a sweeper, maintenance work.
What kind of future does he have?
Dr. PAYNTER. I could go through the same figures on the other
side of boys who have been in these centers and have done well. The
answer of 1.94 gain, which is approximately a 2-year gain for a young
man that has been there for probably less than a year, is a remarkable
gain and probably he should have stayed longer.
But hopefully by going on maybe to an urban center or going into
an adult school and into a job, he can continue this gain. But he has
learned to succeed. Once he has learned to succeed and accept himself,
then he is able to enter society and become a contributing citizen.
I think the 1.94 gain is a remarkable gain.
PAGENO="0282"
1714
Mr. STEIGER. It can be a remarkable gain. I think all of us can
agree the question is whether he needed Job Corps to have that re-
markable gain, the question whether or not there are alternatives
available which can give him the same opportunity. But most of all,
may I say to you, Dr. Pa.ynter, what disappoints me is this apparent
lack of confidence or this apparent feeling that we have failed up and
down and across the board.
Maybe we should do Project Interchange instead of Teacher
Corps, instead of $3 million for Project Interchange, what if we had
spent that for additional Teachers Corp enrollees so that there would
be change not just within the teacher and not just for the young
person, but within the education schools, which are the ones that are
bearing so much of the criticism?
Are we to find that, in fact, what we do by the maintenance with
this present "under glass concept" that is so defended by the chair-
man of this committee and others on this committee is that we have
limited the opportunities for the young men and women who are in
this higher risk population.
That is a point about which I am afraid this panel has as yet not
comes to grips because, in fact, our resources are limited and as a result
of that we have to talk about what other alternatives we can look
to to provide greater training opportunities, greater skill training
opportunities, at least cost to service more people.
I am disappointed that the panel has as yet not decided to come
to grips with it. I am disappointed that the panel has here in a sense
not been willing to focus as much on the good things that Project
Interchange does, but more in criticizing the decision to drop certain
of the Job Corps centers.
You still can continue Project Interchange. Job Corps centers will,
in fact, remain. It seems to me that if there is a feeling, Dr. Minich,
in terms of any who are concerned about the image of Job Corps,
that is not your fault.
You have helped to try and bring a better image to Job Corps. For
that I salute you, but it is part of the problem of Job Corps itself in
terms of what it has not done to serve the people that we are here
to try and service with the money that is available to us.
I guess that I come away from the panel with the feeling that we
ought to abolish the public school system because the public school
system has done such a miserably poor job.
Dr. IPAYNTER. May I reply to that, Mr. Chairman?
Chairman PERKINS. Yes, go ahead.
Dr. PAYNTER. I would like to go on record stating that as far as I
am concerned, and I come out of the public school system and I
would praise it today as being the best system of education anywhere
in the world. It stifi is the best. We are still doing the best job of
teaching reading that has ever been done in this country and anywhere
in the world.
There are some problems in our country that have not been faced,
maybe by Congress, maybe by the citizens which-and it is as much
our fault certainly as it is any of yours or anyone, and I am not
pointing my finger, we have not faced the problem of some young
men and young women who come from disadvantaged areas who have
not had the opportunities and we have not faced the fact of funding
the schools properly to meet these kinds of areas.
PAGENO="0283"
1715
Normally these students have just been left to their own possibili-
ties of chance that they might learn something or go on the back 40
and plow it up. But society can't stand still for any of this any longer.
This is a good education system and anyone that speaks against it is
not knowledgeable about it.
There are weaknesses and things we are learning today and hope-
fully we will continue to learn them through areas like Job Corps.
But I would not back off for 1 minute on the work that the education
system is doing.
~`1r. STEIGER. Dr. Paynter, I appreciated that. I think any of us
on this committee would appreciate that, but we have had any
number of witnesses who quite frankly have been extremely critical
of the public school system for its failure to come to grips with this.
I am not one of those who was that critical.
Yes, we have some problems. There is no question about that.
Reasonable men, it seems to me, can disagree about what we do to
face those problems and what we do to meet them most effectively.
But if, in fact, it is correct that you have a body of dropouts from the
public school system which approaches what, 700,000 a year? Job
Corps services 34,000 today. That is an infinitesimally small number
of those who conceivably need some kind of training.
So my point here is that I question seriously the efficacy and the
viability of maintaining this one system at the expense of 650,000
others who are also in need of help and for whom today help is not
coming, in part because of the resource limitation which exists at the
Federal level, at the State level, and at the local level.
Chairman PERKINS. I think the gentleman is-I don't know where
he gets his statistics, but the Job Corps services about 75,000 to 80,000
a year. We are not able to cope with the entire dropout problem. Noth-
ing has ever been done to reach this real hard-core youngster.
Something had been done through technical schools and so forth.
But we still have another layer at the bottom of the barrel that the
Job Corps is serving. I say to you that serving 80,000 youngsters a
year at the bottom of the barrel is a great record for the Job Corps.
We ought to expand the Job Corps to two or three times capacity
and let projects like the Int~rchange project proceed and let the
teachers in the regular course of public school instruction master this
problem child, so that we can eliminate the dropout problem in the
future.
I want to compliment this panel for doing such a magnificent job.
I think the funds have been so wisely expended, a project of this type,
and that is the reason our public school systems are not better, be-
cause we have not had projects of this type in the past to point up
the real need of the disadvantaged youngster and the services that the
disadvantaged youngster requires in the public school system.
And why the present administration wants to destroy something
that means so much to our public school system, with the know-how,
the facilities and material, and the individualized attention that is
necessary, I just can't understand.
Mr. STEIGER. If you will yield at that point.
Chairman PERKINS. Yes.
Mr. STEIGER. I think the answer that we got from the panel is
really the best one we can have. I think Project Interchange and the
PAGENO="0284"
1716
work of the NEA on this has been good. I salute you and commend
you for this.
But let's be honest about it. It isn't that these things have not
been known. It isn't that we have not known that individualized
instruction would be superior. It isn't that we have failed to recog-
rnze that there are new techniques in teaching, the use of technological
equipment that will be advantageous to those who are serviced by
Job Corps and I assume and think lots of other people as well-but
we have spent $1 billion on Job Corps since its beginning.
We have serviced in the last 4 years 230,000 young men and women
out, again, of a target population of 283 million people. We then have
to question or examine carefully whether or not this concept in and of
itself, by itself, is the answer.
in my judgment, it is not. in my judgment we have to talk about
alternatives. We have to talk about using other forms to accomplish
some of the same purposes. If anything, you ought to be pleased.
Chairman PERKINS. Let me say to my good friend, if we fail to take
this provision out and let this proposal become law, that when we
come back here next year or the following year, that we will have
figures that the cost of these so-called minicenters has skyrocketed
per enrollee-bed per year.
There is no other way tha.t you can figure it. It is going to cost at
least 25 percent more and the people who have advocated this thing
are not going to be able to hide behind the computer, because they
have brought us nothing but a fraud.
Mr. STEIGER. Mr. Chairman, I have yet to find what that vehicle
is that you have in mind, which will prevent the administration from
utilizing the authority that exists in the Economic Opportunity Act.
I don't think it is there. I think that the charade through which you go
now is based, as I have already said before, on the basis which indi-
cates that you have strong partisan feelings about the preservation of
the Great Society.
Chairman PERKINS. I feel the Job Corps is doing an excellent job.
Mr. STEIGER. The Job Corps is being maintained. It is not being
changed. Certain of the centers are being closed. 1 am going to ask
unanimous consent that following the witness' testimony that we make
a part of the record a statement by the Honorable John W. Gardner,
the Urban Conlition Action.
Chairman PERKINS. Without objection, it is so ordered.
(Statement follows:)
PREPARED STATEMENT OF JOHN W. GARDNER, CHAIRMAN, THE URBAN COALITION
ACTION COUNCIL
Mr. Chairman, we are pleased to be here on behalf of the Urban Coalition
Action Council. The Action Council brings together various leaders from segments
that do not normally collaborate for the purpose of reaching agreement or solu-
tions to our nation's domestic problems. We are here today to discuss poverty in
the United States.
By current Social Security Administration criteria there are 22 million poor
people in the United States. The number has declined from 39 million in 1959.
To lift 17 million people out of poverty in 10 years is a considerable achievement,
worth bearing in mind in these days of discouragement. It should give us courage
and confidence to tackle the remaining task.
To let the achievement lead to a slackening of effort would be the worst kind of
folly. Twenty-two million poor people represent a tremendous amount of human
misery and deprivation.
PAGENO="0285"
1717
In his excellent paper entitled "Who are the Urban Poor?" Anthony Downs
offers some highly relevant data. Of the urban poor
-the majority are white;
-almost half are in households that cannot be expected to be self-supporting:
the aged, the disabled, the mother with infant children;
-forty-one per cent are children under 18;
-nearly one-third are in households headed by employed men whose earnings
are below the poverty level.
It is worth reminding ourselves that the poverty remaining after decades of
unprecedented affluence is not like the poverty that was once widespread in this
country. It is the hard-core that remains. It is not the genteel, threadbare but
benign poverty of the 19th Century clergyman or teacher. It is poverty at its most
stubborn, poverty rooted in the social disintegration of urban and rural slums,
poverty linked to severe cultural deprivation, poverty complicated by illiteracy,
physical handicap, advanced age, or mental retardation. In such poverty, hunger
and malnutrition warp the normal course of child development; physical ailments
go untreated and turn into lifelong handicaps; children are never exposed to the
stimulation that would ensure their intellectual development; the environment
breeds hopelessness and lawlessness. It is a world of victims and it breeds victims.
An individual born into such an environment does not-cannot-enjoy the
opportunity we regard as the birthright of every American child. If our commit-
ment to the values we so proudly profess doesn't move us to right that wrong,
our self-interest should. Out of all proportion to their numbers in the population,
the children of poverty become, in later life, economic burdens on the rest of the
community. If we are unwilling to spend the money to cure the problem at its
source, we spend the money later anyway-in the social cost of crime, narcotics
addiction, social unrest, mental illness, lifelong physical handicap and so on.
The attack on poverty must be far broader and more varied than is generally
recognized.
We have to begin with management of the economy and with attention to eco-
nomic growth and full employment. Back of everything we seek to accomplish
is the economic strength of the nation. That strength makes our social programs
possible. It provides the jobs and pay checks that enable most Americans to
eat well, keep their children healthy and function as independent citizens living
their lives as they please.
We often fall into the habit of talking about our economy as one thing and our
social programs as a completely different subject. They are the same subject.
Economic growth is our main social program. The freest and best money a man
receives is the money in his pay envelope. The best program for creating inde-
pendent and confident citizens is a vital, full-employment economy.
Therefore we must expect the Administration and the Congress to use the tools
of monetary and fiscal policy to avoid inflation or recession, to facilitate capital
growth where possible, to expand job opportunities and job training, to seek wage-
price stability, to encourage the development of new products and services and
the advancement of science and technology, to foster increased productivity,
and to protect natural resources.
The attack on poverty also calls for adequate programs of income maintenance-
unemployment insurance, social security, public assistance, and probably new
forms to come. These programs have not been surrounded with the glamour that
has touched some other aspects of the attack on poverty; indeed the public
assistance programs have been the subject of widespread hostility. But it is a
plain fact that most of the poor are too old or too young or too sick or disabled to
enter the job market. No matter how brilliantly we pursue remedial programs,
there will always remain a large number who can only be aided by providing cash
income.
A comprehensive attack on poverty also requires that we rehabilitate the victims
of poverty and eliminate the urban and rural slums where poverty is bred. To
help the individual we must have adequately funded programs of education, job
training, health care and social services. To change the environment involves
massive urban efforts, such as the programs called for in the Housing Act of 1968;
as well as regional and rural development activities such as the Appalachian
Program.
In short, the total effort to deal with poverty reaches into every domestic depart-
ment of government. As you know, the Office of Economic Opportunity has con-
trolled something less than 8% of all federal antipoverty funds expended during
its life. Agencies with far more resources at their disposal are concerned with
housing, manpower, health and other needs of the poor. If we do not adequately
fund those broader programs, the attack on poverty will be crippled.
PAGENO="0286"
1718
I would place particular emphasis on
-modernization of the existing welfare program, including Federal support
of national welfare standards, and hopefully, early consideration of a more
thoroughgoing revision of the national income maintenance system;
-a stepped-up training program with built-in incentives, better tailored to the
needs of the several categories of poor, e.g., the welfare mothers, the unskilled
teenager, the employed low earning family head;
-Job creation-an expanded JOBS program to increase private employment,
and a public service employment program;
-education, health and nutritional programs to counter the effects of poverty
on the considerable number of children growing up in poor families.
We must begin to think in terms of much higher levels of funding in areas affect-
ing the poor. Actual appropriations generally are significantly below authorized
appropriations. We often hear that poverty programs are failures; that they do
not work. And yet, they seldom are given the necessary funds or the long-range
commitment to insure their success.
Some examples wifi show the glaring disparities between authorizations and
appropriations. The Model Cities program-intended as a coordinated attack
on blight and treating social as well as physical problems-was given $625 million
last year although more than $1 bffiion was authorized. This year only $675
million has been requested, with an authorized amouut of $1.3 billion.
The home ownership and rental assistance provisions of the Housing and Urban
Development Act called for $150 million the first year, and only $50 million was
appropriated. These funds have been fully committed for several months, and
many are beginning to queEtion seriously the government's commitment under
the Housing Act. The Nixon Administration is requesting full funding for these
programs and Congress must act on this request if the Housing Act is to meet
its promise.
The Office of Economic Opportunity has consistently failed to secure full
appropriations. And in education and health, there has been a noticeable faulure
to spend the amounts necessary to have an impact on poverty. Title I of the
Elementary and Secondary Education Act, which provides federal funds to school
districts that have special projects for disadvantaged children, received an au-
thorization of $2.726 billion yet it was allowed only $1.123 bffiion in appropriated
funds.
And so the story goes. It is unrealistic to believe we can solve our nation's
problems if we do not provide even the authorized funds after long and studied
debate over proposed solutions.
And now let me turn specifically to extension of the Economic Opportunity
Act and the Office of Economic Opportunity.
Mr. Chairman, in preparation for this testimony, I reviewed the history of
the Office of Economic Opportunity since 1964, and I must say that I am im-
pressed with the role that this Committee has played. The Committee has shown
concern and insight. It has worked hard to educate itself and to serve as an
advocate for the poor.
It is easy to criticize the hectic early years of the OEO. But when the smoke
clears away, I believe that history will record significant achievements. The
OEO's vigorous efforts stirred a concern for the victims of poverty that made
possible a mobilization of resources reaching far beyond the agency itself. Programs
in behalf of the poor in every other domestic department benefitted by the gen-
erative force of this new effort. Beyond that, the OEO has injected an element of
innovation into a number of programs addressed to the problems of the poor;
it has identified and fostered community leadership among the poor and among
minorities; and it has enabled many of us to gain valuable insights into the impact
of institutional inadequacies on the lives of the poor.
Looking to the future, I want to speak very briefly of three themes which
were prominent in the early conception of OEO's function: innovation, community
participation and coordination.
The innovative approach must continue to characterize the OEO. The infusion
of "research and development" techniques into social program areas should be
firmly supported and expanded.
The innovative approach is well illustrated in the delivery of services to the
poor. Breaking out of the mold of traditional agency patterns, the best poverty
programs have shown that legal and health services, pre-school education, multi-
service program integration in neighborhood centers and other techniques could
in fact reach persons long considered unreachable.
PAGENO="0287"
1719
It is not generally recognized that the innovative activities of OEO had a far-
reaching impact on the old-line departments. The latter would be loath to admit
it, but many programs undertaken by the old-line departments between 1965
and 1968 were influenced by the philosophy of the OEO.
At the heart of the controversy surrounding the OEO has been the question of
public power for the poor. The "War on Poverty" provided the first major tools
with which the poor could seriously affect some policies and programs at both the
national and the local levels. It is true that in a typically American burst of
enthusiasm, the OEO went at this task with a maximum of energy and a minimum
of reflection. But perhaps such things can only be accomplished in a burst of
enthusiasm.
I am thoroughly familiar with the problems, inconsistencies, tensions and
mistakes that have arisen from application of the requirement for "maximum
feasible participation." But we are more skillful in handling those problems
today than we were two years ago, and we are still learning. It was wise to seek
to give a voice to the poor, particularly wise in the case of minority groups (because
of their systematic prior exclusion). I believe that we will move toward increasingly
sound and effective forms of citizen participation.
Even today, as my own staff moves about the country helping to organize local
urban coalitions and seeking the cooperation of leaders from the black community,
we find that many of the ablest local leaders we can recruit for our purposes
are men and women who had their first taste of leadership in the Community
Action Programs.
I have emphasized that the attack on poverty, broadly conceived, reaches
into every domestic department. Such multifarious activity cries out for coor-
dination, and of course the OEO was placed in the Executive Office of the President
to accomplish just that. As we all know, it never did, partly because its energies
went into operating new programs, and partly because coordinating Cabinet
members is a difficult task at best.
OEO's achievements in coordination have not been altogether negligible. It
has worked out checkpoint procedures through which federal agencies, grantees,
state agencies and local communities engage in mutual consultation before grants
are made. And it has developed joint projects such as those involving displaced
farm workers in the Mississippi Delta, Indians, and migrant workers.
But much, much more is needed. I believe that my views on the coordination
of domestic programs are fairly well known. I do not accept the widely shared
notion that Cabinet members cannot be coordinated. They can be. The first
requirement is unflinching determination on the part of the President to bring
about that result. The second is a suitable instrumentality (and I may say
parenthetically that the Economic Opportunity Council, properly used, would
have been quite adequate to the purpose). The third requirement is that the
instrumentality must be headed by a man of stature, implicitly trusted by the
President.
There is a serious question as to whether OEO can ever fill this coordinating
function so long as it is an operating agency-and therefore, in a sense, a com-
petitor of the departments it hopes to coordinate. So we may have to look to
President Nixon's new Urban Affairs Council to accomplish the desired result.
It will do so only if the President himself takes an active interest in it, and only
if a strong and substantial professional staff is provided to plan, evaluate, sift
priorities, develop alternative courses of action and make recommendations to
the President.
While we're on this subject I want to say a word about rural poverty, because
it involves the question of coordination. We will not solve our most pressing urban
problems as long as widespread rural poverty exists. The heavy migration from
rural America to the blighted areas of our major cities clearly shows how bad
economic and social conditions are in rural areas; desipte the privations felt by
the urban poor, dehumanizing urban conditions continue to represent a sub-
stantial improvement over life for the poor in rural communities.
With improving agricultural technology, ever more persons will have to find
employment outside agriculture. Already the great majority of the rural poor are
not in any way involved in farming. Industrial development in rural areas should
be vastly expanded wherever sufficient potential exists.
States are uniquely situated to combat rural poverty. Programs of economic
and community development in rural areas frequently require multi-county
planning and coordination. Federal funds, including CAP funds, should encourage
the development of state-coordinated demonstrations in rural areas-perhaps
PAGENO="0288"
1720
several in each state-with special emphasis on economic development and on
training of administrative and program personnel for all phases of community
development, from public administration to staff for social welfare agencies.
Such demonstrations should extend to education, health, industrial development,
transportation and all other relevant fields.
Obviously, programs of that scope are not the appropriate primary function of
the Department of Agriculture alone; rather, there should be a coordinated attack
by the Departments of Agriculture, Labor, Housing and Urban Development,
Transportation, Health, Education and Welfare, and the Economic Development
Administration. The OEO might conceivably be the instrument for accomplishing
such coordination although-as indicated earlier-its capacity to operate and
coordinate at the same time remains in doubt.
In the final analysis, substantial economic development is the key to ending
rural poverty. There is at present no federal policy guiding the application of the
nation's considerable potential in this area. Resources of the Economic Develop..
ment Administration can be brought to bear only where the most severe conditions
already exist, and even then there is virtually no coordination between the
Economic Development Administration and major federal agency procurement
and contracting functions.
There has been much discussion of whether the various OEO programs should
be moved to the regular departments. I believe that some definitely should be
transferred under carefully drawn conditions. I confess that I am equally im-
patient with those who are totally hostile to the OEO and those who want to
preserve it under glass, utterly unchanged.
I need not remind this Committee that about 40% of the funds appropriated
under the Economic Opportunity Act have always gone into programs delegated
among various feceral agencies. The great bulk of these funds has gone into a
series of work and training programs, and they have been the basis for much
innovation within the receiving agencies.
I am keenly conscious of the problems involved in transfer. For example,
federal departments presently function heavily through state agencies; they do
not, in the main, have strong relationships to local leadership and organization.
If the departments receive programs from OEO they must continue to foster the
new constituencies developed around the programs at the local level, and Congress
must encorage them to do so. Similarly, they must protect the innovative values of
the transferred programs.
If these programs cannot survive in the regular agencies as the latter are
presently organized, then there is something gravely wrong with the regular
agencies, something that should be corrected forthwith.
To insure an appropriate outcome, it seems advisable that, at least initially,
delegation should be favored over outright transfer. Transfer should occur only
as the regular agencies prove their capacity to nurture the delegated programs.
I have been asked my views on how many years the present legislation should
be extended. I do not have fixed views on that subject, provided that two principles
are observed. The first is that every program should be open to periodic revision
as experience is gained. The second is that the nation should exhibit an unwavering
commitment to fight the poverty battle continuously, this year and next and the
year after, never relenting until the job is done. It is not an off-again-on-again
kind of problem and it doesn't merit that kind of answer.
In closing, gentlemen, let me revert again to the totality of the government's
effort in combating poverty. I am firmly convinced that more billions must be
poured immediately into the broad spectrum of housing, education, health,
manpower development, and other federal programs which make up the broader
anti-poverty package. Millions are still hungry, or live in inadequate housing;
the majority of poor heads of households work fuiltime; health services are still
inaccessible to millions; school systems and entire cities across the country are
facing bankruptcy while providing minimal services to needy citizens. We can
and must deal with those problems at once.
Chairman PERKINS. I hope more enlightening testimony from your
side will come in here and I will call on you to produce those enlighten-
ing witnesses, too.
Mr. STEIGER. I again just simply point to the statement contained
in Mr. Gardner's testimony to which I have pointed before. He says,
"I will confess that I am equally impatient with those who are totally
hostile to the OEO and those who want to preserve it under glass
utterly unchanged."
PAGENO="0289"
1721
Chairman PERKINS. What is your judgment about keeping the Job
Corps in the Office of Economic Opportunity instead of putting it
over into the Department of Labor? Do you care to comment on that,
Doctor?
Dr. MINICH. I cannot speak for the National Education Associa-
tion, but I can speak for myself.
If the Job Corps is going to be defined narrowly as it has been
defined in the last few minutes, perhaps the Labor Department could
handle it successfully. But then if it is going to involve people and the
whole person, I think it has a greater place in the Department of
Health, Education, and Welfare. I believe under these auspices it
would be conducted with greater vision, and great gains in the long
run for the human beings that we are working with.
Chairman PERKINS. Dr. Paynter, do you care to make any state-
ment along that line?
Dr. PAYNTER. I think historically the Labor Department has been
concerned with the training of men in skills for jobs. The boy and
girl that is in Job Corps is in need of education as a priority and
obviously this would place it, in my mind, in the Office Of Health,
Education, and Welfare.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead across the table.
Mr. DORLAND. It appears to me that one of the problems since its
inception has been OEO had to work with Department of Interior
and Agriculture in the running of these centers. I am still not sure
that under the new direction it is going to be a program delegated to
the Department of Labor from OEO, which seems like might be an-
other layer.
We have to face it, there was some real problem getting this mix in
a Job Corps center where we had educators and Federal people, career
people, trying to learn to work together. I am just wondering what
the effect of another layer, might be.
Mr. STEIGER. May I simply say to you that delegation is an au-
thority that has been utilized on a number of occasions between
OEO and the other departments of the Federal Government. It is
not another layer in fact. It is a provision in which the funding to
the budget of the Office of Economic Opportunity, that they are then
through a delegation agreement signed by both OEO and the Labor
Department in this instance, in which the operational authority rests
with the Labor Department.
Mr. DORLAND. Yes; I am aware of that. I am essentially an adult
educator. Several years ago we ran into serious difficulties when title
Il-V of the Economic Opportunity Act was delegated to HEW for
its administration. We found that there are problems inherent in the
structure of funds going to one group and delegating to another and,
in fact, we led a successful move to have that authority changed.
That is my only previous experience. 1 am a little bit leary, quite
frankly.
Mr. STEIGER. Would you then think we ought to transfer it?
Mr. DORLAND. Transfer it?
Mr. STEIGER. Yes; in which case the OEO would have no role and
no responsibility.
Mr. DORLAND. Not necessarily.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead.
27-754-69-pt. 3-19
PAGENO="0290"
1722
Dr. HASSEL. I would simply say that if the nature of the Job Corps
program is to remain) that which deals with the total life experience of
the individual, 1 believe that it should, then 1 believe that it needs
to be in a place where the insights and the skills of people who have
these commitments can be brought to bear.
if this can be done best in OEO or HEW or the Labor Department,
so be it. But 1 believe that you have to create a setting in whièh the
individual has the opportunity to develop a viable human being, even
before you expect job training experience to have an effect on his life
development.
Chairman PERKINS. Do you care to comment?
Mr. NELSON. I have nothing further.
Chairman PERKINS. Let me compliment all of the distinguished
panel. You have been most helpful to the committee.
Mr. STErnER. Can I ask one question of Dr. Hassel before he
leaves here, since I did not have a chance to ask him a question directly.
I would appreciate it.
Do you have any feelings or thoughts on this question that I have
raised which Dr. Paynter and I tossed around a little while as to
whether or not the fault with the public school system, the fault with
the lack of funds, the fault within ourselves is that we have not come to
grips with this problem up and down the line, not just in the public
schools? I would appreciate any comments you might have on that.
Dr. HASSEL. I am glad to have the opportunity to react to that
question. In my opinion, fault lies within ourselves as human beings;
we have not valued all human beings equally. We have seen the effect
of this rejection in the typical way that the public schools have exerted
their maj or efforts towards those individuals who can succeed, who are
nice, who are well dressed, well mannered, well pleasing. We have
seen this in the way traditionally we have assigned teachers.
You break a young teacher into your faculty at the senior high
school level and your young teacher typically will be given classes of
less capable, the less able and the less interested learners. The better
teaching will be offered to those who are better able to succeed.
1 think partly that we as a society have placed so much value on
the outward expression of materialistic success, and the notion which
has become very popular that you gain these success experiences
through college-bound life and things of this sort, that we have lost
complete sight of the fact that all people are people of worth and value,
and that we need to provide the opportunity for them to develop as
individuals.
1 believe that there is a change coming. There is a very drastic
challenge now before us in public education. 1 speak for my own
school system. The senior high school principal talked to me just this
week and has seen more willingness and more readiness on the part of
teachers and administrators and in the last 12 to 18 months to really
get this and deal with these issues and these problems than he has
ever seen before.
Mr. STEIGER. So in a sense my own feeling at least would be that
the public school system, in large part, reflects society as a whole at
this point, that this college-bound syndrome that we have had over a
period of 50 years developed, that that is the only way to be successful
PAGENO="0291"
1723
and, therefore, if you don't go to college, you are a failure, is in large
part underlying this whole question of the role of our public school
system.
Dr. HASSEL. We have been very successful and 1 think we have
initially sold this idea for the upgrading of the educational enterprise
in the society and as we become more technological.
Now the birds are coming home to roost and we are faced with the
deluge of parents, for example, who constantly pressure their young-
sters in these directions and fail to recognize that if their youngster
should be given the opportunity to be an auto mechanic, this is a
position of worth and value. And by the way, the motor companies
tell us we are short a half a million of these people.
Why not recognize in this great United States of ours that people
are people, and this is what we are committed to? Until we are com-
mitted to this relationship of value, I don't think that we are going to
solve this problem at all.
Mr. STEIGER. The new Washington monthly magazine has an
article which is the first of three parts, called "Diploma," really
questioning this whole emphasis on the diploma. We are going to
diploma ourselves to death if we are not careful about the walls that
we have built up.
Dr. HASSEL. I think every child should be given the diploma when
he enters school and then he should conduct himself as a learner,
apart from the pressures of this type of thing. I would agree with that.
Chairman PERKINS. I thank all of you gentlemen.
Without objection, the petition presented to me will be inserted in
the record.
(The petition with signatures follows. The petition with names and
addresses will be in the task force files.)
NATIONAL BOARD OF THE YOUNG WOMEN'S
CHRISTIAN ASSOCIATION OF THE U.S.A.,
New York, N.Y., April 29, 1969.
Hon. CARL D. PERKINS,
House of Representatives, Washington, D.C.
DEAR SIR: At our National Conference in the Eastern Region, held in Phila-
delphia, Pa. April 25-27, 1969, 534 members signed the accompanying petition to
be presented, in their name, to you.
The words at the top of the petition fully express the concerns of our members
as we think of the contribution Job Corps has made to young women between the
ages 16 years to 21 years.
May you and your Committee have success in keeping the Center doors open.
Most sincerely,
Mrs. FRED J. CHURCH,
Vice President, YWCA of the U.S.A.,
Chairman, Eastern Region.
THE HONORABLE CARL D. PERKINS OF KENTUCKY
We, the undersigned, wish to echo your vote of confidence in Job Corps.
Through this program, we are personally acquainted with Job Corps' effective-
ness in reaching large groups of girls from severe poverty backgrounds . . . girls
never reached before.
This youth program was conceived to save lives; not dollars. If hundreds of
thousands of untrained, ill-educated young people drift into the stagnant pool
of unemployables we believe they will cost the nation much more in the long run
in crime and welfare alone.
A ghetto environment often equals social isolation. The Job Corps has lifted
thousands of girls out of poverty and into the mainstream.
This we believe is right.
PAGENO="0292"
1724
Mrs B. D. Leslie;
Carl Fick;
Vivinen Fick;
Eleanor A. Johnson;
Lindsay Barker;
Charles M. Miflierland;
Muriel Glickman;
Walter Morris;
Laura K. Fox;
Victoria Ml. Engros;
Ann N. Wallach;
Mary H. Reeves;
Bernard M. Rose;
Shirley Strickland;
Elizabeth Wynn;
Gwendolyn Willis;
Rita M. Lewis;
M. E. Kirch;
Mary G. Gibson;
Margaret Church;
Carolyn Duke;
Margaret Estrin;
Lucille D. Lambkin;
Edna M. Bath;
Anna Humcherger;
Agnes Walmer;
Myrtle Lundstrom;
Grayce B. Dickerson;
Marie McCray;
Grace C. Young;
Jane C. Goodwin;
Allaine Pau;
Beatrice Siebold;
Mrs. Edward Sabaka;
Miss Bong Duk Kim;
Mrs. Jeane Hodgkinson;
Augusto Roberts;
Dorothy E. Clarke;
Edith M. Lerrejo;
Louise E. Martin;
Harriet H. Naylor;
Donna Milson;
Kathy Moran;
Darlene N. Perry;
L. Evelyn Torres;
Elease Blake;
Betty Hayhurst;
Faith Schindler;
Betty Read Ather;
Deborah Haviland;
Gail Arace;
Thelma Norman;
Kathryn McCurdy;
Barbara Fisher;
Lenore E. Rainey;
Barbara Litwornia;
Nancy Degenhardt;
Barbara Thompson;
Alice Winn;
Andrie Ledouerad;
Sarah Hall;
Jean Upthegrove;
Celia Lujan;
Saffie N. Johnson;
Nancie Henderson;
Ava C. Miese;
Eunice Stone;
Edna 0. Campbell;
Mary Jean Hart;
Jennie W. Home;
Dorothy D. Altfrna;
Beatrice Shadell;
Myrtle Eastwood;
Dorothy 0. Bates;
Eleanor R. Bradley;
Elsie Meliski;
Barbara R. Gordon;
Mary K. Carson;
Judith S. Baumen;
Virginia Ried;
Carolyn E. Mullin;
Mrs. Mary T. Fulili;
Sara H. Catlin;
Priscilla W. `Watson;
Isabel Z. Fulton;
Mary M. O'Nace;
Carolyn Auguel;
Mrs. G. Allen;
livlrs. J~uci1e Davidson;
Mrs. Ethel Long;
Anita Salloum;
June Andruske;
Geraldine E. Sloop;
Florence M. Oakley;
Rosa Rodriguez;
Faith P. Rniefeu;
Constance A. O'Brien;
Currie E. Stoeri;
Marian V. Munger;
0. Evelyn Lewis;
Grace Perrin;
Jane A. Russell;
Barbara Biret;
Myrtie Hartzell;
Isabel W. Varley;
Dorothy Angel;
Lilian E. Newsom;
Estelle L. Melinder;
Margaret K. Margeron;
Martha C. Gardner;
Barbara L. Talbott;
Marilyn F. Isler;
Francis K. Jaques;
Virginia R. Hoover;
Doretha Phillips;
Jessie M. Dike;
Winifred Debbie;
Marjorie Miller;
Elizabeth R. Charles;
Elizabeth W. Hubbard;
Bertha E. Page;
Dorothy H. McAdam;
Alice T. Merrell;
Ann W. Moseley;
Irene Brown;
Ruth Thomson;
Dorothy P. Taylor;
Betty MacRae;
Elizabeth Anne Campagna;
Elizabeth Anne Leader;
Lisa Lundelias;
Lilian E. Mousey;
Hazel H. Duhich;
Kathryn J. Ives;
Barbara F. Morton;
Patricia A. Warner;
PAGENO="0293"
1725
Kathryn TJ. Zimmerman;
Mrs. Federick B. Lee;
Mrs. Robert F. Evans;
Christine Meher;
Mrs. Fran A. Fisher;
Mrs. Beryl W. Williams;
Mrs. Lena Roth;
Ethel M. Johnson;
Vera N. Krause;
Molly W. Merchant;
Lillian H. Jackson;
Imoguck Tipton;
Elizabeth P. Hopkins;
Mrs. J. 0. Haseodi;
Eligo C. Tapp;
Marchelle Tift
Mausine C. Gilbert;
Agnes D. Phillips;
Charlotte Phevirt;
Hilda Jan Mason;
Mary Reed Crook;
Carolyn R. King;
Anabel S. Puels;
Clara M. Coan;
Mrs. Agnes W. Tiinpson;
Anna Peck;
Bessie Hunt;
Mrs. Arthur Kroll;
Mrs. Stanley Osowski;
Mrs. George Banister;
Rev. Grace V. Tilton;
Margaret Bok;
Florence Loop;
Florence R. (~ordon;
Brenda 1,7~Tebb;
0. Jeichorner;
Jane B. Fenske;
Anne M. Garrott;
Ernestine Owens;
Mary L. Wilson;
Diane E. Bennekamper;
Elsie West;
Mary Frances Berkenger;
Myrtle Jane Ray;
Doris M. Leader;
Margaret Wynkoop;
Sophia Browne;
Edna Trevio;
Betty W. Eslick;
Doris Finley
Frances C. Hambln;
Helen N. Pratt;
Meryl M. Aberman;
Elizabeth W. Fenske;
Rosetta B. Mitchell;
Ruth TI. Muldowny;
Gwen Carter;
Mrs. D. Y. Gardner;
Ora B. Taylor;
Elaine Breslow;
Catherine N. Stratton;
Jean Plaxton;
Jimmie Woodward;
Mrs. Robert Volger;
Sara A. McConnell;
Myrtle G. Burton;
Dorothy E. Hodges;
Ann R. Diehl;
Ida Sloan Snyder;
Carol Miller;
Cecilia B. Green;
Theodora Nanisted;
Margaret S. Moritz;
Flowne Stevenson;
J. Chambers;
Audrey S. Newsome;
Bertha Kriegler;
Sarah Hayden;
Rosamary Richmond~
Carolyn Lammar;
Harriet S. Beaver;
Dorothy F. Wilson;
Imogene W. Bentley;
Nëechie D. Mintz;
Pearl L. Manger;
Nancy Beroptresser;
Doraly C. Spaulding;
E. L. Allen Basker;
Nancy B. Scott;
Barbara Archard;
Edith Naeico;
Marietta N. Reynolds;
Joy Lambert;
Angie Shunaman;
Maxine Johnston;
Rose Marie Paygall;
Gloria Vance Press;
Virginia R. Smoker;
Doris W. Carpenter;
Doris J. Roberts;
June Walker;
A. Quientamin;
Margaret E. Van Hoeson
Patricia Knight;
Mrs. Charles Rabuch;
Clara Nicholson;
Mary Howard;
Pearl Scott Tyler;
Lois J. Greenwood;
Marion Murphy;
Harriet W. Easton;
Betty J. Rice;
Elizabeth M. Campbell;
Marion T. Natwick;
Diane Hoard;
Elizabeth Solvaener;
DeGora Harris;
Bonnie Joy Haines;
Louise Allen;
Eleanor Stropp;
Nancy Sarger;
Carrol C. Dean;
Ruth L. Bither;
Charlotte B. Spangler;
Emilie S. Spaulding;
Evelyn Stults;
Lilian Sharpley;
Willie Waller;
Cynthia Bowen;
Carrie Salaski;
Edith Richards;
Ruth R. Hamilton;
Jean King;
Phoebe Steffeg;
Dorothy J. Heittenger;
Ann C. McBryde;
PAGENO="0294"
Gay Dickerson;
Patricia M. Belanger;
Hargear S. Canton;
Prudence Hicks;
Annette Burke;
Jessie Powell;
Katherine G. Spear;
Maude C. Bennett;
Mary Carroll Hillis;
Margaret Reed;
Jane E. Keleher;
Donna Holland;
Kim Wright;
Mary Helen Atwood;
Marilyn Rasch;
Josephine Reis;
Linda Skypale;
Dorothy M. Andrews;
Shirley J. Wiesand;
Marjorie Moeller;
Patricia Coonan;
Cindy Crayer;
Betty Hutchison;
Grace McMasson;
Alma Hunt;
Sarah A. Curtis;
Alberta Ford;
Elizabeth C. Davis;
Miss Carol Nyhoim;
Mrs. Virginia E. Pryor;
Dr. Hilda A. Davis;
Mrs. Dorothy Luydeel;
Mrs. Hermine R. Hunter;
Mrs. Carolyn A. Haihader:
Mrs. John Boyd;
Mrs. Donald W. Moore;
Mrs. Allan G. Tyson;
Miss Charlotte F. Corry;
Mrs. Howard B. Waxwood, Jr.;
Mrs. Marion Jakney;
Mrs. Thomas R. Grosse;
Mrs. Margaret Tobin;
Mrs. Robert Myer;
Mrs. Ann Kendall;
Mrs. Betty Ingram;
Mrs. Francis A. Wodel;
Mrs. D. Stewart Templeton;
Mrs. Jay E. Henry;
Mrs. T. Taylor Shannon;
Helen Spratt;
Helen E. Abbott;
James L. Susag;
Linda Hansen;
Mrs. Win. A. Green;
Marion L. Sheridan;
Carolyn 0. MeMillan;
Dee Beebartt;
Conine Stevensou;
Mrs Andrew P. Palmer;
Kathryn M. Smith;
Mrs. R. C. Dawson;
Mrs. Cornelius V. Oldwine Jr.;
Mrs. George Lukmann;
Mrs. Harold L. Davis;
Mrs. Leonard Le Fun;
Carol Schupp;
Marza C. Hay;
Goldie Jeffrey;
1726
Helenka Marculewicz;
Mrs. Dora A. Nada;
Mrs. Suzanne Gleason;
Mrs. Kenneth M. Hutchison;
Mildred L. Savacool;
Miss Rita-Mary Senor;
Miss Elizabeth Webb;
Waldo Wilson III;
Judith Butler;
Elinor `vI. Kiley;
Shawn Cinsavich;
Julia J. Byars;
Mary Sharpe;
Jane Robbins;
Mildred P. Woodly;
Frances C. Maxwell;
DeAnn L. Carlson;
Virginia Y. Dixon;
Margaret B. Smedley;
Inn M. Barnaul;
Dorothy R. Cutler;
Mildred S. Casey;
Virginia B. Bird;
Toni Wyman;
Burl Binge;
Mary Heinnich;
Marilyn Longdon;
Clarice G. Herbert
Emily WTilliams
Ruth Carder
Beatrice Fellar
Mildred M. Hechman
Mrs. B. W. Campbell
Mrs. John G. Paulson
Mrs. Eleanor Adeline
Josephine. T Van Meter
Wilma Strange;
Mrs. W. H. Gumbey;
Mrs. Ruby Holloway;
i\'Irs. George P. Spear;
Mrs. Albert Shaw;
Mrs. Richard J. Wingard;
Mrs. John A. Williams;
Miss Marjorie A. Baker:
Betsy Smith;
Miss Ave M. Cassell;
Mrs. Clifford Ginter;
Mary Davis;
Mrs. Vincent H. Haag;
Mrs. Walter Heokman;
Marjorie F. Pratt;
Lucy F. Flanigan;
Fran Ansel;
Karen E. Zerome;
Linda Miller;
Ann Boyce;
Ruth F. Irish;
Thelma A. Hardiman;
Sally Treash;
Nancy M. Thompson;
Patricia G. Magee;
Theresa Leveque;
Beulah Johnson;
Gladys Jaukic;
Bertha WThite
Jeannette L. Janes;
Barbara J. Amino;
Jean Frisko;
PAGENO="0295"
1727
Joyce L. Johnson;
Helen M. Boveluwich;
Irene G. Ozer;
Clarice L. Haines;
Dorothy Solozaris;
Claire A. Kruchev;
Jan Vandervest;
Andrea Petracel;
Miriam Judd;
Margaret M. Nesins;
Sar~ H. Hess;
Maurice F. Goidmon;
Ella J. Wood;
Anita B. Sears;
Dorothy J. V~all;
Emma Lou Muet;
Rita Qush;
Elinor ~ hackeys;
Gladys Kudel;.
Margaret C. Oest;
Sylvia Scherer;
Estelle Winkles;
Gen Vanderbuh;
Carole Ann Plate;
Nina L. Martin;
Jane C. Shevenell;
John Ott Reinemann;
Outten Reinemann;
Nilly K. Wade;
Glenda Mack;
Clara Price;
Virginia S. McQuail;
Helen R. Kennedy;
Margaret M. Barnes;
Gertrude D. Ramy;
Nellie L. Williams;
Donna L. Farber;
Joan Marshall;
Marjorie S. Doty;
Jean W. Malandia;
Alice S. Lehmann;
Ruth S. Venho;
Babbette B. Smith;
Marguerite Surgeon;
Martha S. Tiblits;
Ella Ingram;
Ruth Brown Price;
Kit Kinter;
Betty O'Toole;
Mary Ann Mobley;
Barbara Ann Bozzuto;
Vivian M. W. Boyles;
Nancy Klatte;
Grace M. Pritchard;
Adair Wilson;
Joan Lubachnick;
Sonya Griffith;
Adrienni Cost;
Pauline L. Hanlon;
Carol C. Clever;
Jean H. Sparkman;
Mary J. Hackney;
Jane B Chambers;
Frances T. Rawson;
Leuellyn S. Curry;
Dorothea K. Jones;
H. Claries Cox;
Helen M. Hanley;
Elisabeth M. Richards;
* Mrs. Verne Atwater;
Elizabeth Macpherson;
Mrs. Becky Coger;
Mrs. John Lundelins;
Mrs. Richard Bedoners;
Shirley Taylor;
Helen R. Martel;
Jean Teske;
Mrs. Lillian Griswold;
Mrs. Helen Koste;
Frances H. Dowling;
Swade Wilson;
Christine Gleissel;
Fran Marshall;
Mrs. Hal B. Lloyd;
Helen M. Stephenson;
Mrs. Robert Henderson;
Nancy L. Neff;
Mrs. Rosanna Burkett;
Mrs. E. J. Newton;
Mrs. Douglas McManus;
Mrs. Kenneth Groat;
Mrs. Florence F. Dickler;
Lois A. Sergeant;
Helen A. Gamble;
Jean Cummings;
Peg Prentice;
Pearlean Waters;
Mrs. J. D. Fewster;
Mrs. Howard R. Jaquith;
Mrs. Malcolm Thompson;
Norma J. Sims;
Mary Barrutz;
Esther Sittig;
Pauline Bishop;
June G. Evarts;
Minnie Schober;
Maria Karlovsky;
Carol Dilts;
Alberta Knox Eatmon;
Martha Jane Berry;
Marjorie E. Goodell;
Mildred M. Simonson;
Marguerite E. Adams;
* Mary P. Fawcett;
Ruth Caston Hill;
Paula Cercel;
Janice Ross;
Ruth S. Felkner;
Millie Manzione;
* Mamie E. Davis;
Mary E. Mead;
Mrs. Edward Copeland;
Mrs. Glen Lenning;
Mrs. Don Schenk;
Mrs. Thomas H. Byas;
Mrs. William D. Ghee;
Mrs. Rex Stevens Clement;
Miss Carolyn L. Hamilton;
Mrs. Robert C. Goetze;
Mrs. Wm. M. Cuthbert;
* Mrs. Richard L. Rutz;
Miss Marian E. Foray;
Miss Barbara Schall;
Miss Rebecca G. Smalt;
Marian lodhon;
Priscilla Jenkins.
PAGENO="0296"
1728
Chairman PERKINS. Come around, Congressman Moorhead.
It is a great pleasure for me to welcome our distinguished colleague,
Mr. Moorhead, from Pennsylvania, here today. Get the group around
you and proceed in any way you prefer.
Go ahead, Mr. Moorhead. We are delighted to welcome you here
today.
STATEMENT OF HON. WILLIAM S. MOORHEAD, A REPRESENTA-
TIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA; AC-
COMPANIED BY ALBERT CHARLES, HILL DISTRICT, OPERATION
LIFT, MDTA; MRS. CLEMENTINE WARD, NORTH, FAMILY SERV-
ICE-HOUSING REHABILITATION; MBS. CARMEN FAVELA, SOUTH-
WEST, HEALTH CAREERS; RICHARD THOMAS, SOUTH OAKLAND,
YOUTH AND RECREATION; NAMES MALONE, HOMEWOOD-
BRUSHTON, BICEP, BETHESDA; DAVID MURPHY, LAWRENCE-
VILLE, DAY CARE; MRS. ISABELLE BELL, EAST LIBERTY, AGED;
PAUL CICCONE; DAVID EPPERSON; MRS. DOROTHY IRWIN, BOARD
MEMBER OF COMMUNITY ACTION, PITTSBURGH; AND ROBERT
PEASE, BOARD MEMBER, COMMUNITY ACTION, PITTSBURGH
Mr. MOORHEAD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to introduce to you representatives of Community
Action, Pittsburgh, Inc., the official OEO administrative organiza-
tion for the antipoverty efforts in my city of Pittsburgh, 29 Pitts-
burghers, most of them my constituents, have come to Washington.
I might say of the 29, 25 are citizen representatives of the poverty
areas and are not staff members of the CAP. Might I also say that
25 came here and their expenses were paid by some of the private
organizations backing CAP, the churches and others. These repre-
sentatives have come to give testimony about Pittsburgh's involve-
ment in the war on poverty over the last four and a half years.
They are from the eight target areas where the OEO program is
fun~tioning, and they are all residents of these neighborhoods. They
represent young and old, low income and middle income, black and
white. They will be speaking to you from their own experiences and
their own involvement.
The eight witnesses who come from the eight target areas are Mr.
Albert Charles, Hill District, Operation LIFT, Manpower Develop-
ment and Training Act; Mrs. Clementine Ward, of the North Side
of Pittsburgh, family service and housing rehabilitation; Mrs. Carmen
Favela, Southwest, health careers; Mr. Richard Thomas, South
Oakland, youth and recreation; Mr. James Malone, Homewood-
Brushton area, BICEP, Bethesda; Mr. David Murphy, Lawrence-
ville area, day care; Mrs. Isabelle Bell, East Liberty, who will speak
on the subject of the aged; Mr. Paul Ciccone-these are the neighbor-
hood representatives.
In addition, Mrs. Dorothy Irwin, board member of the Community
Action of Pittsburgh, will make a brief statement; and Mr. David
Murphy, citizens spokesman. Also, Mr. Chairman, our backup witness
will be Mr. D~vid Epperson, who is the executive director of CAP
PAGENO="0297"
1729
and the other representatives from Pittsburgh, if their particular
experiences would lend them to have a unique way of answering one
of your questions.
I hope that the members of the table here will be able to call upon
them. As leadoff witness, I hope that the chairman would call on Mr.
Robert Pease, board member of Community Action, Pittsburgh. Mr.
Pease is also the executive director of the Allegheny Conference on
Community Development, and I have submitted to counsel the Febru-
ary report of the Allegheny Conference, because this private group is
participating in many aspects of the war on poverty and other Federal
programs to bring relief to the urban areas and most particularly in the
city of Pittsburgh.
Chairman PERKINS. Proceed in any manner you prefer. Thank
you very much.
Mr. PEASE. Mr. Chairman, my name is Robert B. Pease, executive
director of the Allegheny Conference on Community Development,
Pittsburgh, Pa., and a member of the board of Community Action,
Pittsburgh, Inc., and I am representing the chairman of the board
today, Maj. Joseph M. Barr, who is very sorry that he was unable to
attend today.
Chairman PERKINS. You can summarize.
Mr. PEASE. This is a very brief two and a half page, double-spaced
statement. I would like to read it.
As a member of the board of Community Action, Pittsburgh, I
know of the successes and also of the failures of the poverty program
in Pittsburgh. The population of Pittsburgh is approximately 540,000
today. At its peak in 1950 it was 677,000. Since 1960 we have lost
44,000 people in the poverty neighborhoods along 20 to 44 years of age,
and in the middle-income brackets.
We have an increasing proportion of black people, many in low-
income brackets. Approximately 150,000 poor people will try to
survive in Pittsburgh. One third of all the housing in Pittsburgh is
substandard and 62 percent is over 45 years old.
Our unemployment picture is even worse. Pittsburgh has the
third highest unemployment rate of all major metropolitan areas and
the highest black unemployment rate of any major metropolitan
area. Poverty programs in Pittsburgh have managed to make some
significant ripples on a slim budget.
The money allotted to the city has been small compared to the
task and it has been slow in coming. Four thousand poor people
through the poverty program have been taught simple ways to
repair and rehabilitate their homes provided with the tools on loan
and were taught homemaking skills last year by one of the delegate
agencies, Action Housing.
An ambulance delivery training program was developed with Free-
dom House and Presbyterian University Hospital for 20 men, among
the hardest of the hard-core unemployed. The two new ambulances
were bought and business and local foundations participated in making
funds available toward the success of this program.
It has been reported that this ambulance service program serving
two poverty neighborhoods in Pittsburgh is one of the best in the
Nation and the joke in Pittsburgh is if you are in an accident and need
some treatment on the street, you will be lucky if Freedom House
comes to you rather than somebody else.
PAGENO="0298"
1730
There are some 600 nondegreed people from poverty areas in the
city who are hired in the OEO program. Many of those were on relief
before. Our Headstart program was rated as outstanding by the U.S.
Office of Education in the booklet "Profiles in Quality Education" this
year. Countless hours are spent working with the schools, training
school community agents, school volunteers, ESEA, advisory council,
Manpower Development Training Act classes in cooperation with~ the
schools.
The citizens and staff last fall produced one of the best and most
rewarding inservice programs ever sponsored in the Pittsburgh schools.
I cite just those few highlights of our program. I could go on, as I am
sure you are aware, for many more paragraphs citing specific opera-
tions of the poverty program.
One important aspect and despite many obstacles we have managed
to spin off $1.4 mfflion in fund programs in the last 4 years to other
sources in the Federal Government. We are working extremely hard
with our staff and the board of CAP to spin off more programs to* other
agencies so that we can keep on innovating and developing new things
that we are aware that are necessary.
Pittsburgh is not necessarily proud of its programs. It is proud of its
people. The strength in Pittsburgh's program is its citizens, all kinds of
citizens, ordinary citizens, wealthy citizens, corporate leaders, politi-
cal leaders, and many others. Many of those citizens have come today
to talk for themselves.
I am sure as the question and answer period develops, you will gain
much from the comments that these citizens will make.
The citizens have met with the secretary of labor and industry for
the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and the regional manpower
administrator for the Department of Labor in late September 1968 to
make the Bureau of Employment Security and the Department of
Labor aware of local problems in job development and training.
When Pittsburgh was threatened with a $1 million budget cut this
last year, because of a~ regional OEO decision in Washington, D.C.,
representative citizens from all eight neighborhoods and two youth
representatives met with the regional officials to negotiate the matter.
Because of those efforts, the OEO officials reversed the decision and
Pittsburgh kept its $6 million budget. Pittsburgh has again been
informed that it will be cut $1 million. That is one reason why these
citizens are with us today.
Just last week citizens from the health committees and all eight
poverty areas of the city planned and held the first real citizens-held
conference in the city, and we believe in the entire country. I want to
leave the details of the Pittsburgh story to these citizens, but I want
to add an informal comment about citizens in general in the Pittsburgh
area.
Citizen participation in all levels have been going on in Pittsburgh
for many years, starting with the agency representative, the Allegheny
Conference on Community Development, which was formed 26 years
ago to help Pittsburgh come out of the postwar dilemma that it
faced with the smoke and floods and lack of opportunity for industrial
expansion, and right on to the present day when we have citizen
group organizations cooperating across the board with those citizens
representing poor neighborhoods, able to work with citizens represent-
ing top industrial and corporate leadership as well as governmental
leadership.
PAGENO="0299"
1731
I think if the cities in this Nation are going to solve their poverty
problems, we must get citizens at all levels, as we have in Pittsburgh, to
work together and to make some long-range plans with both short-
range objectives as well as long-range objectives.
I believe the citizens can do it. I believe the citizens are brmgmg
more and more know-how to those in charge of programs in the cities
and we recognize that the Federal Government cannot supply the total
wherewithal to solve the problems of Pittsburgh, but we do recog-
nize, too, that we can't do it alone.
We think it is time for the citizens who have now formed cooperative
organizations in our city to develop that spirit of cooperation between
the city and the Federal Government so that together we can move
ahead in the long-range basis and make some long-range plans with
assurance that we not only wifi have a program that can operate this
year, but also the next year and the next year and the next year.
Chairman PERKINS. Who is your next witness?
Mr. PEASE. Mr. Murphy. Thank you very much.
Mr. MURPHY. Congressman Perkins, my name is David R. Murphy.
I am honored to have been selected to represent the Pittsburgh branch
of the Office of Economic Opportunity. We are shocked at the sugges-
tion of the cut in the poverty program as we feel the need for additional
funds to expand our community ideas.
You must realize that there are 150,000 poor people in the Pitts-
burgh area alone. The money in last year's budget amounted to a
little less than $1 per person per week. You really can't fight a war
on poverty like this. More than 55 percent of our funds are earmarked.
How can you decide where our money should be dispersed when you
don't know the particular needs of our area?
Another damaging thing is the fact that we never receive our money
on time; because of this, the Pittsburgh area had to borrow. money
to continue its program and paid $20,000 in interest over a 4-month
period. With this $20,000 alone, we could have improved 20 houses
and employed 10 men for 10 weeks.
We are not asking for an outrageous amount of money. We only
need a $1 raise per person per week. With this we could expand our
day care programs, which in return would give more mothers a
chance to work. We would also like to train young men for skill jobs~
and carpenters, plumbers, electricians and heavy equipment operators.
At the same time we would be doing two jobs: training our people
and also improving very poor housing. Here we are, one of the richest
nations in the wo~r1d and we cannot recognize our greatest asset, our
people. This Nation spends billions of dollars each year on supersonic
jets, moon shots and equipment which is obsolete in less than 1 year.
We spend thousands of dollars to kill one enemy soldier. Why not
spend $2 a week to help that one poor American?
I am sure there are many ways to find money for such a good
program. In the Pittsburgh area alone, there are 52,000 children,
almost 7,000 elderly people, and 5,000 blind and disabled on public
assistance. These are some of the people we are trying to reach.
Can you see the need to help the children who are so desperately
deserving of a head start in life? How can we deny a needy child?.
How can we lead the blind and help the disabled to work more pro-
ductive lives? Let's show the elderly we care.
PAGENO="0300"
1732
I am sure there are many questions which y~ti w~tild 1ik~ to ask us.
But we have other citizens who are going to speak on certain programs.
We do not claim to be authorities on programs of OEO, but we devote
many hours without pay to help the people of our community. All
we are asking for is your understanding, cooperation and support.
Thank you.
Chairman PERKINS. Mrs. Irwin?
Mrs. IRWIN. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, I am Mrs. Irwin and I am a citizen of the Southwest
area and also a representative on the board of directors with the
community action program. I am going to act as chairman here and
I want to just say a few words before.
There are a lot of people here that have something to say and some
specifics they would like to bring out. So I won't take up a lot of time.
But this is the one thing that I wanted to say. Since this Government
is supposedly to be of the people and for the people and by the people,
it would seem to me that the people then must be the most important
thing.
In years past, the poor people have been seen but not heard. This
program, the poverty program, is bringing about that change. They
are now making poor people heard and seen.
This to me should be one of the most important things there is
since our whole government is constructed upon the ideas that it is
a government of the people, by the people and for the people.
I would think that if so much money can be spent in weapons to
defend people, and so much money can be spent to kill a person,
can't we spend just half of that much to keep one of ours alive and to
survive?
Now I would like to call on the other representatives. That is
about all I have to say at this time. May we recognize Mr.
Albert Charles, from the Hill district. He could have something to
say about some of the things that are going on in the poverty program.
Mr. CHARLES. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen and ladies of the
House of Representatives of the United States of America:
I consider it a great honor and privilege to appear before you.
I realize in many countries such an opportunity was never granted.
It makes me feel more humble a.nd thankful that I live in a country
that is the most democratic in the world. I fought in World War II
to help maintain our democracy.
I am also thankful for the education and training given to me when
I came out of the service to go into a meaningful profession and to
serve the people. .
In the past when the district disasters brought suffering and despair
to the people, you gentlemen in Congress have moved in your official
capacity to bring relief and hope. Our great country for several years
has been faced with the disaster of poverty and suffering. You moved
in with the antipoverty program to relieve this condition in our land
of plenty. . . . . . . .
The program is working in spite of some unjust criticism and in time
the impact will be felt throughout the Nation. If the program is to
continue at its highest level, I can see a successful conclusion of it in
time to come.
If we analyze briefly, from a purely economic standpoint, the
training of able-bodied men and women for available jobs, we will
PAGENO="0301"
1733
take them off the relief rolls and place them in the position of tax-
payers. They will also be consumers of goods, thus increasing demands
for all kinds of consumer products.
Our production will increase by leaps and bounds. Taxes in time
can be reduced and thus give relief to the burdened taxpayers. In
the vernacular of the business world, it is "good business."
I firmly believe you will respond to our plea in helping bringing
about a renaissance of prosperity for our entire country.
We in Pittsburgh have many programs that have been funded
through this antipoverty program. 1 am just going to give you an
idea of some of them and not go into just what they do, but a lot of
them are self-explanatory. We have the neighborhood legal service,
family service, Headstart for the children, and day care also for the
children, remedial tutoring for students, neighborhood employment
center, which is doing a very fine job throughout Pittsburgh.
We have family planning and maternal health. We have a self-
help program called housing improvement. We have a center called
Bethesda Center in homework, which is doing a fine job for the poor.
Also, we have the BICEP program and in Manchester they have
many programs, among one of their newest is the credit union.
We have a senior citizens center that helps senior citizens in many
matters. On the hill where I live, we have the hill rehabilitation pro-
gram there and it is doing a fine job. We also have architecture 2001,
and as mentioned there, we have the freedom house.
We also have many committees that are working besides the many
services we have, such committees as citizenship development com-
mittee, economics committee, educational committee, employment
committee, family services, health and housing committee, legal
committee, membership committee, Headstart committee, people on
and off welfare committee and public relations committee and social
committee.
All of these are on-going committees and I have some literature
here that will tell you more about it, which I would like to leave with
you.
(Documents have been made a part of the official files of the com-
mittee.)
Mr. MURPHY. We are in need of a more meaningful training pro-
gram. We have been working on it for months and we need a training
program that will really help the hard-core unemployed in our area.
We also have OIC which is doing a fine job in its type of training
that it is doing. But there are many men especially in our area who
could be trained in more meaningful and gainful employment, such as
in the trades. We have contractors there that are ready to hire these
men if we could get the funds to help train these men.
With the training they would get, they would be able to rehabilitate
a lot of our dilapidated houses we have in the area and could help to
reclaim them. We have model cities working for us there and we are
trying to do a job on that, too. But we need these trained men that
can come in under the contractors and do this job.
With more funds we will be able to open up more things which we
envision for the benefit of the people, such as surplus foods center.
We need a furniture store. I am speaking for the poor, a credit union,
insurance protection which is sadly lacking in the ghetto areas.
PAGENO="0302"
1734
~\`Iore and better health services are needed. We are doing work
with the hospitals, but we need services right there within the area.
We need some industrial development to create more jobs. We need
less redtape and requirements for funding in some of these things.
We need a 5-year "Marshall plan" type plan with no earmarked
funds, because as stated here, we are in a position to know better
what programs would work and what we need for the people than
someone thatis far removed from the scene. We need citizens control.
In order to expand these programs and to maintain them, we need
more available funds.
At this time I would like to yield to Mr. Chapel. We have an expert
in economics, who has helped us a little, and a person-Mr. Chapel.
STATEMENT OP MR. CHAPEL
Mr. CHAPEL. In the field of economic development, we have con-
tacted industry and requested that they give us some aid in develop-
ment of the ideas that we created in our community. At the present
time, we have been able to touch in various areas and we will definitely
need huge sums of money in order to continue any type of develop-
ment.
One of the principles at the present time, we are in an area where
we don't have one supermarket. At the present time we are developing
a community budget food mart. This is in the neighborhood of
$300,000. We need a loan for this. With this type of operation, we
will train some of our hard core and create a possible 25 or 30 jobs.
We need about three of these. In addition to this, we are trying to
undertake to develop some small light industry. One of the problems
we find is that some of the present organizations are governed by
legislation that prevents them from giving us all-out support in the
development of the community. Consequently we are requesting that
you give us some control where we will be able to select the type of
development in structures where we will have a place to funnel the
people we are now training into meaningful jobs.
In addition to economic development, we are undertaking in areas
of recreation and education, we have developed a community police
relationship, and in the areas of transportation, health, and so forth.
We do need a "Marshall plan." I think what we have done for a
number of years is fool ourselves into believing that this is not going
to be a long and hard task. We need in the neighborhood annually of
at least $10 to $15 mil]ion. We would like this under a 5-year plan,
with permission to continue this plan as you see the results of these
developments.
We have spent long hours of volunteer time, calculated even at the
minimum wage rate, $1.60 an hour. In our neighborhood alone our
volunteer time comes to in excess of $10 million. I know the other
neighborhoods, the other eight neighborhoods, have volunteered
several hours, and the figure would run, if you had to pay for this, in
excess of $60 million.
What we are asking is for you to just give us some support inrela-
tion to giving us grants, funds and loans, so we as the experts can call
upon the expertise we need if we have the funds available to do this.
Mrs. IRWIN. Now we hear from North Side, Mrs. Clementine Ward.
PAGENO="0303"
1735
Mrs. WARD. My name is Clementine Ward, a housewife-and mother
of six and a DPA client. I am also chairman of the Welfare Rights
Organization.
One of the programs in my area which has demonstrated the value
of and need for the poverty program is the Family Service. Before
the poverty program came into being, Family Service was not in our
neighborhood. In addition to providing supportive help to Headstart
and Manpower and to helping poor families in crises, this program
has employed 18 people, 16 of whom are residents of our poverty area.
None of these workers has more than a high school education, and
several of them were receiving public assistance before their employ-.
ment. But with the training and experience provided in the program,
the staff is ready to be hired by one of the established health and
welfare agencies in the city.
We have testimony here not only from neighborhood people who
were helped by Family Service workers, but from ministers, school
personnel, and from professional social workers. This is one program.
There are others which have proven its value. We want this pro-
gram with the staff to be funded by a non-OEO agency and we want
to be able to use that money to initiate another program which will
wifi serve the community and employ poor people and provide training
which can be later used in the open market.
For instance, Pittsburgh has the third highest unemployment rate
of all major cities. It also has the highest rate of unemployment for
blacks in the country and the worst housing. One of the programs we
shall begin if more money is available is one of homebuilding.
The program would do several things: It would train unemployed
men in construction and home rehabilitation, unemployed women in
home decorating. We are going to start this program and we are going
to. make it work just as we made family service work.
I have here a sworn testimony from school personnel, ministers.
Chairman PERKINS. `Without objection, it will be inserted in the
record.
(Documents were not made available for insertion in the record.)
Mrs. IRWIN. Now we will hear from East Liberty, Mrs. Isabelle Bell.
Mrs. BELL. Mr. Chairman, I am Mrs. Isabelle Bell, of the Citizens
Committee of Garfield, in East Liberty. My concern here is. the
auxiliary service to the aged program, operated by the Kinsley House
Association, serving 900 people per month. One of the things I have
found since I have been in the program and have discovered is that
there are many people in Pittsburgh who are over the age of 65.
These people ovei- the age of 65, but there is oniy one program in. the
neighborhood of East Liberty and Gaifield that even attempts to
help these people.
Therefore, you can see this is a unique program and it is the only
program all over that is like this. This program provides nursing,
social service, homemaking, recreational service for the elderly and it
serves about 2,000 aged people with a staff of about 10.
And the need is greater and the program, I think, should be ex-
panded to the other areas of the city. This program is an example of
the good done by the OEO. This program also helps to keep the aged
persons in their own living quarters in communities just as long as
they are socially, mentally, physically and emotionally able.
PAGENO="0304"
1736
We also have active groups of the Citizens Council for all the OEO
program. As you know, the aged are often pushed back and a lot of
times we think they are useless. But I don't think so. And I think
that they deserve much more than they are receiving at the present
time.
I would like to see more money funded to expand this program.
Thank you.
Mrs. IRWIN. Next we will hear from Homewood-Brushton, Mr.
James Malone.
Mr. MALONE. Mr. Chairman, distinguished members of the com-
mittee:
The OEO program has funded three major citizens efforts in the
Homewood-Brushton area. The Homewood-Brushton Citizens Re-
newal Council, which coordinates all the OEO programs, and three
neighborhood self-help groups-Brushton Inner-City Encouragement
Project, Inc., Bethesda Community Center, and Holy Rosary
Center, which represent community work in our neighborhood. These
programs are serving a great need of overcoming the overcrowding,
slum housing, declining business areas, and if it hadn't been for
community action activities, funded through OEO, the situation
would have been chaos by now.
In a population of approximately 30,000, close to 85 percent black
and more than 13 percent on welfare, 35 percent of the housing is
unsound and the average median family income is only $4,762 per
year. So you can see the community has many problems.
Forty percent of Hornewood-Brushton people fall under OEO
poverty lines. The most important thing the war on poverty has done
for our neighborhood is given people the chance to help themselves.
People of our community want to help themselves, and have proved
this by participation in the hundreds of meetings and in volunteering
their services. One of the most important self-improvement programs
we are working on is housing.
There are housing repair classes, housing improvement programs,
and homemaking classes. We definitely need more funds in this area,
because OEO has limited us greatly.
Legal services and family services are two other programs in our
area which the citizens cannot get along without. Members of the
committee, instead of cutting these, we are asking for more moneys.
The Homewood-Brushton Citizens Renewal Council is doing a
tremendous job with the amount of moneys that have been funded for
neighborhood programs. But we would like to expand our services. In
fact, we don't see how with problems still going and neighborhoods
continuing to change and housing growing older, we cannot continue to
make headway or even hold the line without more money.
From my own experience, I can tell you now, it is going to be defeat-
ing to us all and will help pull down 3 years' effort thathas been made
nOt only in our community, but in the city of Pittsburgh, the poverty
program in Homewood-Brushton has aided citizens in stating their
needs in many areas: employment, housing, family service, education,
youth service, recreation for both youth and adults.
We realize that we have made some mistakes, but after experi-
menting with the program, we feel that we are more qualified to make
decisions about our own needs and programs. On the other hand, we
PAGENO="0305"
1737
feel we have saved Government and our local agencies from making
many mistakes year after year in the past by knowing the programs
that did not fit the needs of the poor in our area.
So we feel we, too, have contributed to a savings. Most of our
citizens are becoming aware of poverty and that the problems of sick
cities cannot be solved with the few token programs.
This committee must know that their creation of the OEO program.
makes jobsfor some poor people in the communities. These poor have
been on DPA rolls for years. OEO gave them hope by giving them a.
job and a sense of responsibility of being somebody.
Also, it gave them a responsibility of helping others who have been
caught up in the same web they were in before OEO came along. But
now, you are talking about pulling the rug from under them by cutting
the OEO funds, or keeping them in last year's level, which means that
those who were given hope with jobs under OEO and community
responsibilities will more than likely return to the rolls of DPA, and a
bleak future.
Until this Government decides that programs are good for poor
white and black, I can tell you now these people will not accept
your next promises. They will reject them. A job half done and thrown
in the scrap pile is the same as telling poor white and black folks that
they are not worth your time. You have once again infringed on their
dignity and respect as men and women.
If you reduce OEO funds, you will create a situation more
dangerous than the summer of 1968. I have seen teenage groups in our
neighborhood who were formerly wards of juvenile court, through
recreation, tutoring programs along with counselling, have become
to be future productive citizens~
Welf are recipients have become more informed through citizens
against inadequate resources. I might add, Mr. Chairman, that the
need is becoming more and more in securing adequate medical
attention for the poor people on the DPA rolls in the city of Pitts-
burgh, because of the doctors in the city of Pittsburgh will not take
additional DPA cases because of the fact that they have been a
long time getting their money.
Mrs. IRWIN. Now we would like to hear from our Southwest repre-
sentative, Mrs. Carmen Favela.
Mrs. FAVELA. My name is~ Carmen Favela and I live in southwest
Pittsburgh, which is really eight areas in one. It is a widely spaced
area, with many poor people. Our job as part of Community Action,
Pittsburgh, is to help get people out of poverty. This doesn't mean
to get them a job where they still need welfare supplements, which
you understand they are still in poverty.
People need a decent adequate wage and you can't get a job without
good health. Therefore, this is why our area is so concerned with health.
In our neighborhood we have a long-range goal of health careers for
the disadvantaged students in the junior high school, ages 14 to 17.
We are interesting these students through job opportunities in the
hospitals to the advantages of the professional health careers.
This program has been in existence and this year will be the second
year. These children are from the lowest of the income families in the
area. Many persons have said that some of them were unable to learn.
Our experience in the program last summer has proved these people
to be wrong. . .
27-754-69--pt. 3-20
PAGENO="0306"
1738
The students were given a chance to work in every department in
the hospital. They did the actual jobs required of the professional
people under hospital supervision. Some of these programs were in
X-ray, nursing, physical therapy, in dietetics and all such professions.
All of these students received excellent evaluations at the end of their
program.
The ones who were 16 years of age were retained during the winter
to work part time. The younger children, because of laws, were unable
to do this.
Upon returning to school in the fail, children who have been fail-
ing made passing grades, even the ones who were considered unable
to do so. This has motivated many of them to set their sights not only
upon becoming technicians, but becoming pyschiatrists and doctors
as well as nurses.
And from the very low-rncome youth who previously had only
thought that they could get nothing more than a porter or maid's
job, this is the greatest opportunity for them. This has been our
greatest program, though we are very interested in all other phases
of health, in getting better hospital care, doctor's care; as the gentle-
man before said, the poor people have a very hard time getting doctors,
and to get~ the poor interested in staying in school so they can get the
education, that with good health and with the proper education and
training they can become employable and become self-sustaining
citizens.
Chairman PERKINS. Thank you very much.
Mrs. IRWIN. Right before I call the next spokesman, which is from
South Oakland, Mr. Richard Thomas, I would like to say we are very
proud of our citizens here in Pittsburgh. All of these citizens were
staying at home and since CAP has come into our organization, you
see we brought our citizens right out, which enables us to sit here
before you now and speak, which I don't think would have been
possible.
Mr. Thomas?
Mr. THOMAS. Mr. Chairman, my name is Richard Thomas, from
South Oakland. I have a prepared statement.
Chairman PERKINS. Without objection, the prepared statement will
be inserted in the record.
(Mr. Thomas did not make a copy of his prepared statement
available for inclusion in the record.)
Mr. THOMAS. I would like to do my own thing after I do the prepared
statement. I have various views on things.
The youth of South Oakland are young people and poor people
who are thankful and respectful to the citizens and our community
action, Pittsburgh, program for motivating and help carry on our
desires to the poor people to lift poverty from our community.
The youth are very much involved in showing to the neighborhood
residents themselves active involvement and objectives and concerns
of community action, Pittsburgh. The youth are desperately fighting
to restore self-personal dignity, which are essential ingredients in the
drive to abolish poverty.
We young people have made our commitment and will continue to
do so in the interest of self-help and immediate and long term dividends
of continued and successful community action, Pittsburgh, program.
We also know that the decisive weapon in the war against poverty is
PAGENO="0307"
1739
education. We are struggling to find ourselves, but we are determined
not to take a back seat to no one in the drive to get a good education.
Those of us who are in school are going on ahead to college with the
help of various scholarships, grants and perhaps working.
For those who are not in school or dropouts, as many people call
them, which I don't see and I call them forceouts myself-the word
explains itself, forceouts.
The poor people tended to be forced out of school because they are on
DPA, you know. Their mothers and fathers don't work and they don't
have the money to continue school. So instead of dropout, I will use
the word "forceouts." We must get them back into school and get rid
of the problem which forced them out of the school and return to get a
good education, which are so badly needed, and without the con-.
tinuation of our OEO program in Pittsburgh, we will be just like saying
we want all of our youth to be forceouts.
I have made this statement on the youth, but I would like to say,
too, that most of the people I feel haven't reached the main part.
The main part in which you feel is moola, which is the word "money",
you are cutting the money away from us. One million dollars is a lot
of money which you are cutting away from us. That is like to say to
us to go out in the street and hustle.
We have been trying to hustle for a long time. We don't want to
hustle any more. We want to get an education and try to work for
money.
Chairman PERKINS. Thank you very much.
Mrs. IRWIN. From 1E[azelwood-Greenwood, Mr. Paul Ciccone.
Mr. CIccoNE. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I
am Paul Ciccone, from the Hazelwood-Greenwood Council in the
southeastern part of Pittsburgh. In 1962 a group formed a renewal
committee out of the chamber of commerce. This was a basis for
the Hazelwood- Greenwood Extension Council.
It was formed to deal with neighborhood problems. There were
two big problems at the time. Many poverty-level people moving into
the community which were mostly black. This severely changed the
economic status of the community and at the same time business in
the community was at a standstill; stores were closing up and housing
was deteriorating.
When OEO came along in 1965, it helped the Hazeiwood-Greenwood
Extension Council in the following ways: By providing manpower
services and training and an employment center and day care center
and Headstart centers, legal services, family services, and health
services.
Here are some of the accomplishments of the council. We have got
a new Glenwood Bridge and we had the Second Avenue resurfaced,
new street lights, and we have a weekly street-cleaning program.
We have hydrants flushed for the elimination of stagnant water, re-
moval of abandoned cars, demolition of condemned housing, sewers
cleaned, reconditioning of houses on Second Avenue, some tutorial
program, that we have had for 5 years involving 150 children each
summer, a summer recreational program for youth.
We have 17 block clubs organized, job placement of ever-increasing
services, family services extended to 800 familiar, 200 senior citizens
being currently served in the senior citizens lounge.
PAGENO="0308"
1740
Five hundred youths are involved in youth programs, summer em-
ployment programs for youth. We have 10 on-going citizens commit-
tees in operation and we have seminars planned.
This is not to say our community does not have problems. The
community has been beset since the early fifties with interracial
problems, as documented by the findings of the Mayor's Commission
on Human Relations. There has been a growing rate of polarization
of the races. This may be caused by economic competition for jobs
in low-income communities such as ours.
The Hazeiwood-Greenwood Extension Council has attempted to
come to grips with the problems of our neighborhood. It is the only
vehicle in the community where whites and blacks can come together
on a mutual basis to resolve differences and seek solutions. Without~
the council our community would be in complete chaos.
I would like to mention that just last week the extension council
was instrumental in getting the police to establish a liaison center in
the community. This wifi help control rumors and provide a place~
where the citizens can work with the police. It will be staffed by both.
police and community people.
To continue to implement our work, we need more funds.
Thank you.
Mrs. IRWIN. I would like to have one of the staff members, Mr..
James Wffliams, to give you a little insight on Operation Dig, which
has taken some very hard-core men and put them into heavy machines.
STATEMENT OP ~FAMES WILLIAMS, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR,
OPERATION DIG
Mr. WILLIAMS. My name is James Williams, Assistant Director of
Operation Dig. During the summer of last year, when the construction
was going on in the North Side of Pittsburgh, we decided that the
youth should get on some of that equipment and learn how to operate
it. So that is what we did.
We have 67 men we had in the school. It was designed for $2.47 an
hour while he is training for 1 year, which comes to $100 a week. At the
end of this year, he was to go into the union.
This program started about a year ago. So right now we have 58 men
that are placed on jobs right now plus in the union.
Chairman PERKINS. You place all of your heavy equipment
people?
Mr. WILLIAMS. All except one. We have them ranging from $5.20
an hour to $6.75 an hour. We have 58 men on the job at this time.
Chairman PERKINS. Do you have any further witnesses?
Mrs. IRWIN. Yes. We have a closing-out statement by Mr. Murphy,
who gave the introduction.
Mr. MURPHY. Mr. Chairman, Congressmen: This morning we got
up about 5 o'clock in the morning, we traveled 200 miles to get here.
Since I have been sitting here, we have been hurried through every
statement, haven't had time to really say what most of them wanted
to say, and there should be a lot more said about it.
No. 1, instead of having $800,000 for day-care centers of Pitts-
burgh, we should have something like $2 million for the day-care
centers, because last month alone in the North Side district, 60 children
applied for day-care center. That means that we would have to double
the centers we have now to accommodate these children.
PAGENO="0309"
1741
I would also like to speak for the whole Pittsburgh district in saying
it is one heck of a shame that we have to come down here to Wash-
ington and literally beg for the money to help our poor. Because here
we are, as I stated in my opening statement, one of the richest nations
in this world. We spend millions of dollars overseas, which none of us
ever see. We give away to foreign countries.
Instead of giving all of this money to foreign countries, why can't
we pour it into our own country, into our poor people, take them out of
these ghettos, take these children out of this mud and these poor
people off the street.
I realize there is a lot of people that really ride along on this program.
This is what hurts. But I also say there is a lot of people that really
need the program. You are suggesting a cut. This cut, instead of in-
creasing our day-care centers, would literally close some of them down.
I can't understand this Government of ours that could do such a
thing. Let them go through the streets and see these kids hanging
around on the street corners. Let the news media ask why do we have
so many dopeheads? Why is all of these riots going on in colleges right
now? It comes back right here in Washington, that is why. For the
simple reason when we got a good program, you know we have got a
good program, we have to come to Washington and fight for it.
I had a speech prepared, but I don't think I have to say it. I think
you know what is in every one of our hearts. We spend all of this time
today to testify and since I have been here, there is only one question
asked of this program. From what I can see, there is really no reason
for us to come.
Thank you.
Chairman PERKINS. Let me compliment all of you. I think you
have made excellent statements. I think all of your statements are
crystal clear.
And I want to compliment all of you for coming down here and for
giving the committee the benefit of your views, because I agree that
the poverty funds are entirely inadequate. I would like for us to have
many more millions to repair homes and for your day-care centers
and for Headstart and for your heavy equipment and for all the other
training programs, neighborhood centers, comprehensive health pro-
grams, and I have voted for the maximum dollar myself.
But we have got the problem here in the Congress and it is a
difficult problem to get these programs funded and let me say that
I agree with what you have stated about these cutbacks.
I think there never should have been any cutbacks. We should
have given more money to all of these programs. I think it is very
demoralizing, because of the cutback in programs. And I can assure
all of you that I am going to do everything in my power to see that
these programs are more adequately funded and expanded and
broadened.
I don't want to see any of these programs gutted. I think you are
getting too much benefit from them and I am going to do everything
I know how as chairman of the committee, to try to do the best job
I can to seeing that the programs are adequately funded.
Let me compliment all of you for your appearance here today
and compliment you again on your statement. You have all made
excellent statements.
Mr. Buckley, do you want to say anything?
PAGENO="0310"
1742
Mr. BUCKLEY. I would like to direct a question to the Director,
the Executive Director of the program.
Can you tell us what it is that makes a community action program
good? How do you structure it and what are your approaches? What
are your priorities to make an effective CAP program go?
Why is it that you have been so successful and others have failed
in the community action area?
Mr. EPPERSON. The ingredients that would have to go into a com-
munity organization would have to depict the different areas of that
particular community involved in a community action effort. It
means that the political entity must be not only involved to provide
the leadership required, not only in the conimunity itself, but as it
directs itself to Washington and to the State capital.
It means that the corporate areas of the community must at least
have an open, if not an inviting response, to the need of that particular
community. It means that the residents themselves, not just the poor,
but the entire multifaceted residential makeup must be involved in
every area to make determinations as they affect their lives.
Last, but not least, it means that the decisionmaking process in
the ultimate sense must, of course, be by one administrative and
policymaking body. But that body must take its own direction and
read the barometer of the citizens themselves as they dictate what
they need and how it should be done.
Mr. BUCKLEY. When you refer to the decisionmaking body, you
refer to your Board of Directors, CAP?
Mr. EPPERSON. I refer to the CAP Board of Directors, but I indicate
that the barometer must be the people and although the Green
amendment, and ~virs. Green is not present at this time. However,
in the amendment which was specified the one-third situation, the
political entity and the private entity must still take direction from.
the citizens.
What we have had in Pittsburgh is that the mayor, although he is
chairman, and he has appointed two-thirds of the voters, one-third
being public officials and one-third being from the private sector, the
barometer is still the people.
According to the dictates of the people, according to the dictates
of the community, and the priorities which they have established,
then this is what he uses as he chairs this Board and it is what the
two-thirds of that Board uses in trying to determine the needs for the
community action effort.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Can you describe briefly what the training programs
you have for your community workers, staff wise, and what traimng
programs or what help you have for the citizen participants on the
Board are?
Mr. EPPERSON. Yes, we have a Training Division Director here
in the rear. That Training Division is responsible for the development
of the citizens as well as the training of the staff and this parallel
and concurrent function operates by having staff training on a short
basis, such as 2-week in-service training programs designed by us as
well as courses which we have developed with the University of
Pittsburgh, the School of Social Work and the University of Pittsburgh
Grammar School of Public Affairs, and in areas of community orga-
nization and public administration.
PAGENO="0311"
1743
With the citizens themselves it is an understanding of the political
and economic process, and understanding of how functions of Govern-
ment work, and understanding of boards and how they function, a
very cursory kno ~vledge of accounting principles and fiscal manage-
ment, and these are done in the community for the citizens and by
university professors for the staff.
They are done on a continuing basis.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Thank you. I have no further questions.
Chairman PERKINS. Let me thank you. You have made an ex-
cellent appearance and you have made your point.
Mr. THOMAS. I would like to shake your hand because of the fact
that you indicate what we want.
Mrs. IRWIN. Could I recognize one more citizen?
Chairman PERKINS. Yes, go ahead.
Mrs. IRWIN. Mrs. Darlene Ellis.
STATEMENT OP MRS. DARLENE ELLIS
Mrs. ELLIS. I am Mrs. Ellis, from the Hazlewood area.
I was not delegated to date as a spokesman, but I do not feel that
I could leave this room today unless I as a citizen could say two things:
I feel we have all come here today for two basic reasons and that is
that we feel the committee should understand that we as citizens
feel, No. 1, that we have been greatly hampered in the past with
OEO, considering that we have had it in our areas, most of our areas,
for close to 3 years now and we feel that earmarked funds is one of
the major functions that can make or break this program.
As we see it, if we have services coming into our community and we
in our community are well aware of our problems, and how any agency
coming into our community must go about solving, that we as citizens
must have some say in the way that this agency can control itself and
in coming into our community. By earmarking funds, virtually all
control is taken out of the citizens' hands. We have no say-so in the'
areas in which they can serve our community.
We feel that it is a very, very important matter that you understand
here today that unless the citizens can control effectively their pro-
grams, they cannot implement these programs to the extent where
they will be as successful as we are all here in this room trying to tell~
you today that they can be.
Citizens can be moved out of poverty. Citizens can be made much
more aware of their surroundings and how to implement their surround-
ings to make them better individuals. By a community improvement,
you have city improvement. By city improvement, you have State
improvement. By State improvement, you have Government improve-
ment.
I think that all of you gentlemen and ladies in this room are in-
terested in a better Government for this Nation.
The second area, that I think is very, very important today, is'
that unless enough money is put into communities so that the total
picture can be evolved, it is just like cracking a mirror. When the
mirror is whole, you have a complete reflection. But when it is cracked,
it is of no use.
I think that the funds that are in the neighborhoods right now are
like a broken mirror and unless we can get a full-length mirror, we will
not have a total picture.
PAGENO="0312"
1744
I think that these are the two things that I myself wanted to say
Ihere today.
Chairman PERKINS. The next witness, Mr. Albert K. Mock, Jr.,
president of Enterprises Development, Inc., Berea, Ky. Identify
the gentlemen by your side from the University of Kentucky.
STATEMENT OF ALBERT K. MOCK; JR., PRESIDENT, ENTERPRISES
DEVELOPMENT, INC., BEREA, KY., ACCOMPANIED BY EUGENE I.
MOONEY, PROFESSOR OP LAW, UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY,
LEXINGTON, KY.; A~Th GERALD M. OSBORNE, TREASURER,
ENTERPRISES DEVELOPMENT, INC., BEREA, KY.
Mr. MOCK. I have with me today, Prof. Eugene Mooney of the
University of Kentucky Law School and Gerald Osborne, treasurer,
Enterprises Development of Berea, Ky, and Lee County, Va.
Chairman PERKINS. 1 am delighted to welcome you all here. I
hate to be under pressure this hour of the day. I am trying to catch
a plane in about 30 minutes.
I am delighted to welcome you here. Proceed.
Without objection your prepared statement will be inserted in
-the record. You may summarize it.
Mr. MocK. We appreciate this opportunity to present our views on
the vital necessity of creating a new capital base in Appalachia, other
trnderdeveloped rural regions, and underdeveloped urban areas.
Mr. Chairman, we would emphasize at this point that most of our
activity is concentrated in the Appalachian region, both urban and
rural. For this reason, much of our testimony will be validated on the
basis of experience and knowledge in Appalachia. We believe, however,
that much can be accomplished in rural, as well as high density urban
centers, by means of such efforts as the one with which we are asso-
ciated.
America must enlist the energies, the full participation of all
citizens. Our study, experience, and work leads us to believe that
these energies can be harnessed and that public and private efforts
with many nonparticipating, noninvolved people to enter actively and
beneficially in the American economy can be fuffilled.
It is a well-documented fact that the ordinary people of America
have, for generations, been out of the mainstream of our economy,
and it is only now, after 5 years of substantial public investment by
the Federal Government, that they are beginning to sense the possi-
bility of participating in national economic growth. I think we have
just seen that in this room.
It would obviously be economically unsoirnd to destroy or radically
inhibit the momentum generated.
Funds for such programs as Vista, and Job Corps centers, must be
continued until we have proven once and for all that this system might
not work, that it will not work. And we have special reference to that
OEO legislation which regards special impact. We feel that that par-
ticular area of endeavor especially needs to be explored to a greater
degree.
Chairman PERKINS. Does the gentleman from the university, the
-professor of law, agree with you on those assertions?
PAGENO="0313"
1745
Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir, Congressman, not only that it needs to be
carried over in the OEO Act, but we believe section 1-D should be
expanded and more adequately funded when it is expanded.
Chairman PERKINS. I agree with you likewise.
Your written testimony will all be submitted for the record.
Mr. MOCK. We make reference to the fact that a great deal of
Federal money, and justifiably so, has been expended in areas which we
consider to be hardware projects, roads, dams, the building of facilities
that are absolutely necessary to economic development. But we be-
lieve the stimulating of private enterprise enlarging a given region's
own private capital base and creating an attitude for growth and
ownership among the people are the next steps which must be taken if
underdeveloped areas are to contribute their fair share to the national
economy. Only then will there be a full return on the public invest-
ments authorized and appropriated by Congress.
The building of new roads and dams will not automatically create
job-producing industry or business of a substantial and permanent
nature. Manpower training programs must be related to developing
businesses. Private capital has often, but not always, reacted creatively
to public facilities built around a well-organized economic development
program.
We go on and explain the direct experiences that we have had in
economic development, and we talk about an outfit that we had
created in Laurel Bloomery, Tenn.
In this instance, an ARA business loan and a Labor Department
training program, combined with local private capital and good
business management resulted in 45 permanent jobs for so-called
"untrainables" while producing a quality product with a profitable
national market. Reader's Digest, in its March, 1968, issue, perhaps
over-optimistically called this endeavor an "Awakening in Appa-
lachia."
A recent study appearing in Mountain Life and Work, published
by the Council of the Southern Mountains, relating to "investment
multiplier effect" indicates that the Iron Mountain Stoneware plant
investment of, say $100,000 was, perhaps, multiplied by a factor of
five. Based on the assumption that people and business spend 80
percent of their increases in income, the plant investment of $100,000
tended to raise the income in the area by an extra $400,000 within 1~
years.
Approximately 180,000 new outside dollars are annually inj ected
into the local economy of Johnson County, Tennessee, through wages
and salaries. Using the same "multiplier effect" ratios, we obtain a
figure of $900,000 as the ultimate rise in annual income for the area.
Additionally, the local purchase of raw materials and supplies inj ects
$40,000 and its requisite multiplier.
Thus, Iron Mountain Storieware, while small, has become a signifi-
cant economic factor in Johnson County, Tennessee. It is important
to note that Iron Mountain equity is held locally and, for the most
part, the multiplier effect is felt locally. Thus, the profits derived of
Iron Mountain income creates an additional multiplier, which is not
normally the case with absentee ownership.
For those who may be dubious in dollar terms of Federal business
development assistance, we hasten to point out that, for the most
PAGENO="0314"
1746
-part, employees at Iron Mountain were primarily dependent on various
forms of welfare and total Federal expenditures in meeting those
welfare requirements were easily in excess of $30,000 per year.
Now, these people are taxpayers comprising an aggregate tax
return of say, $10,000. The net annual saving to the Government is
conservatively $40,000. This year Iron Mountain is also paying cor-
porate taxes. During the past 3 years the Government has received
back on its $107,000 loan, say, $180,000, including interest and reduc-
tion of principal, or a net effective rate of return of 20 percent per
year. This is good business by any definition. It is apparent that this
Government loan has generated Federal income well in excess of the
risk incurred.
In terms of national economic development goals, and on a con-
solidated basis, including all income, one or two long-lived winners
can offset a great number of marginal or loss situations.
It is our experience with the enterprise development project that
the need for competent manpower, entrepreneurial experience, and
*equity capital is universal to business. These needs are especia]]y
acute in underdeveloped rural and urban areas. These needs must be
remedied in order to produce jobs, profits, and an enlarged tax base
in the underdeveloped areas of this Nation.
Manpower is available and it has a high potential, but it requires
well-designed skifis and motivation training. Skilled management
and the en~repreneuria1 spirit is present, but it is widely dispersed
*and must be assembled for effective action on each specific develop-
ment project. Conventional financing is available, but the most basic
problem is the critical assembly of risk capital.
An economically underdeveloped region suffers not so much,
from a lack of conventional, collateralized funds as from a readiness
to perceive new types of lending opportunities and then the ability
to come forward with the working capital.
Tied to this deficiency of an active capital base is the lack of
equity ownership, and, thus, lack of involvement on the part of the
people of an underdeveloped region.
Mr. Chairman, experience with the rewards of modern capitalism
is nonexistent among the poor people of this Nation. Until this is
changed, no amount of public works and public welfare, however well
planned, will fully energize the people.
We believe we have an effective new approach to the solution of
the basic problems of capital availability and broad-based equity
ownership. We have involved community leadership throughout the
Appalachian region. Our approach holds very large possibilities for
the region, other rural areas, and for the urban ghetto.
Now, we would like to outline our concept, explain the problems
we have encoimtered, and suggest how they may be solved. We use
as an example a proposal of ours for the construction of a bookbindery
in eastern Kentucky-to engage in rebinding school and library books
for public and private institutions.
Presently, despite massive new education programs in Kentucky
and surrounding States, there are no library binderies in the area.
Our feasibility study, now being implemented, shows that this enter-
prise could gain and hold a sizable market.
It will be much like the Iron Mountain proposal when it is finished.
We raised local capital and have been recipients of an approved
PAGENO="0315"
1747
Small Business Administration 502 loan to a local development com-
pany. I might add this. We used the area Community Action Agency
in putting this together and probably could not have done it as handily
or as quickly without their assistance and their specific knowledge of
the area in which we were trying to work.
Now, the point here is that the $50,000 in working capital as well as
$11,000 of that portion of money which is going to he used to purchase
plant and equipment came from local investors.
I will pick up now on the written statement.
While this sort of local financing with Federal help will get this new,
small firm going, we believe another method would accomplish the
same objective, and also be the instrument for the creation of a new
capital base to serve this specific area of Appalachia.
Without requiring any new Federal legislation or amendment,
lhese same local citizens could have formed an investment company
in which they purchased $150,000 in equity, becoming licensed as
a small business investment company under the Small Business
Investment Act of 1958, and then qualify for an additional $300,000
Federal investment. Thus this investment company could provide
$50,000 for the bookbindery with a remainder of $400,000 to invest
otherwise. This is the key to this concept.
Now, 1 would like to go ahead here and elaborate on it briefly but
this is something that should be studied in much greater detail and
should be applied and implemented where possible.
Several new enterprises can be created, local citizens will have an
opportunity to own equity in this company of diverse investment
portfolio, initial investment in the SBIC could come not only from
established financial and industrial interests in the area, but also
through a "mutual fund technique" private individuals could invest
as little as $10 per month in order to have a stake in building their
communities, providing jobs for themselves, and equity for their
children.
This, in brief terms, is an outline of our model using an example.
The action program envisions that several SBII C's will be formed at a
minimum initial capital level of $300,000 to $1 million. This will
provide a new investment capital base for the region while creating
many new enterprises. One key to the success of the program is the
provision for management counseling on a continuing basis. Such
guidance can be given through an organized management group
furnishing promotional, legal management, financial, and marketing
service.
We do not feel that it is fanciful to speculate with regard to what
might be accomplished with, say 15 maximum SBIC's in Appalachia.
Under current legislation, maximum SB1C construction is $10 million.
Fifteen maximum companies would make available $150 million in
working capital, not necessarily requiring collateralization, but con-
ceivably attracting an additional $300 million or more from conven-
tional sources.
Now considering the multiplier effect previously outlined using
the 80 percent and five ratio, one can assume that the financial
aspects of the economic development of Appalachia have been radi-
cally enlarged while providing maximum private individual participa-
tion. Every step in the acquisition of this proposed capital base will
have involved people, individuals, the citizens of the community.
PAGENO="0316"
1748
Their participation will be insured through a low, but long-term
pay-in, preemptive stock purchase arrangements, and provisions for
cumulative voting. Variations of this approach have been used in
the stimulation of the unprecedented economic revival of West
Germany, Japan, Korea, and Taiwan. Implementation of this concept
will provide unprecedented economic opportunity in underdeveloped
areas of the United States.
Now, we have gone on and quoted certain sections of the Economic
Opportunity Act. That is in this written testimony and we would
like to have it included. Then we say that the reception to this approach
is growing throughout the region. Companies with a regional interest
are assisting us in this effort. Many public and private agencies are
involved. We know this program is complex and we may have set-
backs and disappointments. However, we are committed to succeed.
The Congress, through the Economic Opportunity Act of 1964,
provided a new sense of national urgency and commitment. The
legislation before you for extension of the Economic Opportunity Act
is vital to us-to all Americans-and we urge its approval.
Our purpose today is to ask this committee to insure that whatever
final legislation comes from Congress contain a flexible approach that
gives recognition to the need for Government to be a catalyst for
stimulation of private business. Wise public investment is imperative,
but stimulation of private enterprise is essential.
Many governmental programs, already underway, are stimulating
private and local efforts to create economic opportunity. What is now
required is more emphasis and support for efforts of regional, com-
munity, and private groups who are dedicating themselves to creating
and spreading the benefits of participating in capitalistic enterprise.
Mr. Chairman, when I see the tensions in the large cities, I remem-
ber that many of these same tensions are present in the rural region
in which we live. In Appalachia they are more latent simply because
there is less congestion, but they are there, nevertheless. They have
much of the same basis as the tensions of the ghetto area of large
cities-namely, lack of meaningful citizen participation or direction
in the vital economic growth of our communities.
The economic base from which wealth was produced once consisted
of the simple ownership of land and the ability of the persistent
mountain farmer, as stubbornly purposeful as his mules in making it
pay. Today, the capital base, equity ownership, the wealth production
resources come in different forms and are, for the most part, in the
hands of a few others.
Appalachian people, as other Americans from all walks of life, are
beginning to understand this. They are seeking an opportunity to be
owners and to purchase a share of the wealth and a piece of the action.
People must regain control of the economic and social circumstances
of their lives.
We respectfully recommend expansion of title I-D of the Economic
Opportunity Act as one means for developing methods for returning
economic self-determination to citizens.
It is only through building new enterprises in which people can
work, and if they choose, share ownership by buying equity that real
participation can be achieved. This is what Americans, as citizens
PAGENO="0317"
1749
interested in the future of their country and their children, are trying
to do.
Mr. Chairman, a fuller participation for all citizens in American
capitalism must be achieved-Congress has the strength and single-.
ness of* purpose to improve the quality of life for all Americans.
We have brought with us certain studies and documents relating to
our work. May we present this material as a supportive exhibit.
Chairman PERKINS. Without objection, it will be entered in the
record at this point.
(The document referred to follows:)
SYNOPSIS OF CSM-EDA ENTERPRISE DEVELOPMENT PROJECT
(Reference: Monthly Progress Reports, the Interim Report, and the complete
proposal)
The Council of the Southern Mountains Enterprise Development Project
was funded by the Technical Assistance Division of the Economic Development
Administration on 1 June/1967, and extended six months on 1 June/1968, with
an additional six-month "reporting period." Additionally, the project has re-
*ceived support fromprivate philanthropies including the Public Welfare Foundation
and the Sears and Roebuck Foundation, as well as the Council.
Eighteen Month Project Funding:
Per-
Amount cent
TA-EDA $89, 800 76. 0
Philanthropic Organizations 10, 000 8. 5
CSM 18, 000 15. 5
Total $117, 800 100
In addition to private funding, any services to the project have been obtained
without cost. For example: Professor Eugene Mooney of the University of
Kentucky Law School, as well as attorneys in Northeast Kentucky and South-
west Virginia have provided legal counsel and advice. Development Directors of
several major public utilities in the Appalachian Region have worked very
closely with the Project and have given generously of their expert assistance.
The Council has provided accounting and statistical services required by the
feasibility studies.
The contract is being performed on a continuing basis in five phases:
I. Business, enterprise, and product development, research, evaluation
and recommendations.
II. Location studies and area statistical analysis.
III. Specific feasibility studies relating proposed enterprise to proposed
location.
IV. The maintenance of liaison with all federal, state and private develop-
ment efforts and local development programs in the selected areas.
V. Implementation of job-producing enterprise including private and public
methods of financing, as well as appropriate training provisions and
provision of management.
Complete data providing additional information regarding the development
portfolio of the Project is available in the monthly reports with a summary
"Interim Report."
During the past year, the Council of the Southern Mountains, through the
Enterprise Development Project, formed a "Regional Development Commission"
with Frank Hood, Director of Area Development for the Georgia Power Company,
as its chairman. Membership is composed of industrialists, bankers, government
agency representatives, utilities representatives and others directly interested
in developing the economy of Appalachia.
A number of meetings of the "Commission" have been held for discussion
and directional decision making, out of which came the objectives of this pro-
posed program to:
1. Develop closer liaison between training agencies and business and industry.
2. Assist in consolidating all job-creating opportunities.
PAGENO="0318"
1750
3. Formation of a continuing development and management capability.
4. Develop a new capital base.
Enterprise Development activities, either as a matter of liaison or constructioa
of the Regional Development Commission, have touched all thirteen Appalachian
states; however, the major effort has been concentrated in Northeast Kentucky,.
Southwest Virginia-Northeast Tennessee, and Northeast Georgia. Statistical
area analysis has been completed and a working relationship has been established
with existing development organizations in these three areas;s pecifically, the
First Tennessee-Virginia Development District, the Mount Rogers Regional
Planning Commission, the Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Com-
mission, and the Northeast Kentucky Area Development Council, all local
development organizations representing in varying degrees the Economic Develop-
ment Administration, the Appalchian Regional Commission and the Office of
Economic Opportunity, as well as appropriate state agencies. It is these organiza-
tions, or their "spin-offs", that will be used in the realization of the proposed
Small Business Investment Companies.
The opportunities for investment in the Appalachian Region or other under-
developed areas are as great or greater than those to be found in areas which ar&
already highly developed. Obviously, there is more opportunity for potential
profit through investment in an area which is just beginning to grow rather than
an older, more stable economic situation. This position is supported by analysis
of the annual economic growth rate of postwar Japan, East Germany, Korea,
and Taiwan Free China.
It is a well-known fact that a great number of practical feasibility studies
have been completed under various Technical Assistance contracts, both govern-
mental and private-The plan presented and contemplated by the EDP staff
would implement and bring to fruition many of these plans. For instance: "A
Development Plan for Lake Lanier Islands (Georgia)", EDA-TA Contract
#7-35041.
Without losing sight of the other needs of the Appalachian Region, this pro-
posal is also directed toward developing sources of investment capital through.
the establishment of one or more~ SBIC's in the area.
It should be noted that the programs are not limited exclusively to rural de-
velopment, but also involve urban and high density population areas within
reasonable commuting distance to the Appalachian Region.
It is proposed that investment in the SBIC will come from all sectors includ-
ing individuals who, under a "mutual fund technique" may invest as little as
$10 per month. Larger amounts, of course, will come from financial institutions
including foundations and industry.
Although the plan "envisions the creation of many area investment companies",
it is proposed that all will come under a "Technical Assistance umbrella" which
will furnish counsel and other assistance in connection with management con-
sultation, etc.
Considerable preliminary groundwork must be done, however, before actual
activation. Much legal work will be entailed with SEC, SBA, et al. Feasibility
as to location and area encompassed by the proposed SBIC's must be studied.
Spelling out of details of operation of the "Technical Assistance umbrella" must
be made after thorough and in-depth study. (Please read "Implementation of
the Small Business Investment Act of 1958", a part of the proposal.)
Perhaps the best example illustrating the function and use of the various com-
ponents of the Enterprise Development effort is Kentucky Bookbinding,
Incorporated.
EDP has now completed a feasibifity study with two-year projections, as well
as a proposed training program with detailed curriculum for a proposed new
bookbinding industry to be located in Northeast Kentucky.
Working in conjunction with the Board of Directors of the Northeast Ken-
tucky Area Development Council and an "industrial development task force",
a sub-committee of the Board constructed at the request of the EDP staff, as
well as citizens representing the various industrial development efforts of each
county comprising the Northeast Kentucky Council, negotiations were com-
menced for an EDA business loan. EDA officials at the Huntington Regional
Office referred the Project staff to the Small Business Administration in Louis-
ville, Kentucky. Negotiations there have resulted in the submission of a request
for loan under Section 502 which will be made to a Local Development Corpo-
ration (LDC), which is in the process of legal construction, to serve Northeast
Kentucky.
PAGENO="0319"
1751
The plan for financing is:
Local Development Corporation:
A. Local residents (30) will invest in the LDC (SBA 502) in a form of
convertible debenture providing 6% interest to be applied as return
(interest) initially to the LDC and eventually to the investors.___ $11, 000
B. SBA loan (16 year maturity at 5.5% with one year moratorium or
principal) to the LDC 99, 000
Total LDC-SBA 502 110, 000
Kentucky Bookbinding, Incorporated:
Local residents (30) will invest directly in the common stock of the
company 50,000
Total Financing, Kentucky Bookbinding, Inc 160, 000
The plan for financing could be:
A. Form new investment base-SBIC Local residents (unlimited after
SEC registration) invest a minimum initial capitalization (only
$90,000 additional to the "straight-line" plan) 150, 000
B. After licensing obtain SBA loans-Sub-ordinated debentures and
Section 303 loans 300, 000
Total Investment Capital Available 450, 000
Local Development Company:
A. Local residents (25+ minimum) plus the SBIC invest in the LDC
providing minimum participation of 11, 000
B. SBA loan 99, 000
Total LDC-SBA 502 110, 000
Kentucky Bookbinding, Incorporated, Financing:
1. Plant and equipment:
LDC $11, °°~
SBA 502 ~ 000
Total 110, 000
2. Working capital:
SBIC 40, 000
Outside investors and management equity 10, 000
Total financing 160, 000
The SBIC, a continuing investment institution in the area, would still have
available $400,000 for additional economic development.
Under SBIC regulations this $400,000 investment ability could have been
obtained with only $90,000 private participation additional to that contemplated
for the bindery and a profit generating, new job-producing industry would have
been created.
Assuming that the LDC continued borrowing 10 per cent of each SBA 502
business loan arrangement from the SBIC and that the SBIC continued to invest
or loan $40,000 to each business, then the SBIC-LDC-SBA 502 combination could
finance a total of nine businesses of the same general size as Kentucky Bookbinding~
Incorporated.
Kentucky Bookbinding projections provide for a 6 per cent interest rate on
cost of leased plant and equipment. Additionally, the second year projections
indicate a pre-tax profit on invested capital of 40 per cent.
Total assets resultant of SBA 502 and LDC financings (9 at $110,000)-_$990, 000
Total return to LDC at 6% 59, 400
Less return to SBA at 5.5% on $900,000 49, 500
Net return to LDC for distribution to SBIC or 11% return to the LDC_ 9, 900
Less interest to SBIC 5, 400
Net Income to LDC~. 4, 500
PAGENO="0320"
1752
Assuming a more conservative return on invested capital before taxes than
indicated for Kentucky Bookbinding, Inc., say 20%, then:
SBIC total invested capital $450, 000
Return from investments (80% on 20% of $360,000) 57, 600
Return from loans to LDC (6% on $90,000) 5, 400
Gross Income 63, 000
SBIC interest to SBA (5.5% of $300,000) 16, 500
Gross Income to SBIC 46, 500
Or a gross return of 31% on invested capital of $150,000.
This return is calculated without having deducted operating expenses and
would tend to indicate that even a high rate of return will not, in all instances,
generate enough income to provide adequate management. Therefore, SBIC's,
in order to function, must be constructed larger than the minimum requirement.
Additionally, the proposal to construct an umbrella management corporation
servicing several SBIC's will tend to greatly reduce management costs and over-
head of each SBIC.
This is a definitive outline only and subject to radical modification; however,
one must immediately note the fact that through implementation of a broadly
based investment program great numbers of people who are now without equity
and, therefore, without interest in economic development will become owners with
full participation and equal rights to return.
A PROPOSAL FOR THE CREATION AND MANAGEMENT OF A NEW CAPITAL BASE
IN UNDERDEVELOPED AREAS-SUBMITTED BY THE COUNCIL OF THE SOUTHERN
MOUNTAINS, INC.
I. SUMMARY
This is a proposal for 1) the creation of a new capital base in underdeveloped
areas to supply working capital which is now unavailable; 2) creation of a con-
tinuing management capability to service a network of capital companies and
their investment portfolios; and 3) provide and stimulate a genuine opportunity
for equity ownership on the part of great numbers of everyday people.
In human terms, this project, when realized, would provide investment capital
for the establishment or expansion of job-producing enterprises in poor communi-
ties. Coupled with meaningful training programs, the enterprise development
effort will result in many new income-producing options for people who are
currently underemployed.
Any review of the American investment system and federal programs framed
in current development rhetoric relating to "soft loans" reveals that would-be
development "experts" have consistently overlooked the basic requirement for
equity or investment capital. Loans, "soft" or otherwise, however specified and
by whomever extended, will, by definition, require some form of collateral and,
in any event, will not by themselves produce new enterprise or economic oppor-
tunity. Loans can finally produce ownership but quite often tend to centralize
financial control through foreclosure.
We propose a new opportunity to acquire equity in one's own baliwick through
purchase-without high sales commission or the so-called "front end load."
There are approximately 24,000,000 people who hold the equity of this nation,
exclusive of real estate. This leaves approximately 175,000,000 people who are
told that they are full partners in our "capitalistic democracy" but who can
easily subscribe to that old maxim of the poor "them that's got is them that
gets and we ain't got nothing yet."
Through the Small Business Investment Act of 1958, we would stimulate and
supplement the flow of private equity capital and long-term loans which small
businesses need for sound financing. Industrial concerns, utilities and financial
institutions in Appalachia (and other underdeveloped regions) would be heavily
involved in initial (or first offering) financing as well as management during the
formative and operational periods. (Please read Attachment B, "Implementation
of the Small Business Investment Act of 1958.")
This proposal is based upon and is an expansion of the Council of the Southern
Mountains Enterprise Development Project (Contract No. 7-35451), currently
funded by the Technical Assistance Division of the Economic Development
Administration on 1/June/1967, and extended on 1/June/1968, to conclude on
1/November/1968, with an additional six month "reporting period." This expan-
PAGENO="0321"
1753
sion will reinforce the continued effort of identifying specific business enterprises
and preparing a program for their implementation in poor communities.
II. NEED FOR THE PRO3ECT
Many efforts have been made throughout the Appalachian region to offer
"opportunity" to the underprivileged. Job training programs have and are
spending large sums of money to up-grade the skills of our region's people. How-
ever, many of the available jobs are low-paid, minimum wage; some are temporary.
The existence of real job opportunity has never been clearly defined, nor has the
matter of getting the man and the job together been properly explored.
This dilemma is a result of several obvious factors. One is the lack of strong
business orientation and minimum involvement ln the part of business and
financial leadership. Secondly, there has been no direct or well-managed pursuit
of a working arrangement with business toward the creation of meaningful job
opportunity. For example, the large utility companies have never been approached
by agencies to discover their job requirements over the next few years. There is
no existing system maintaining liaison between training agencies with the people
and enterprise which needs trained people-
"* * * Who shall plan, who can plan, and who can direct thejmainstream of
planning activities in the governmental units. Gentlemen, these are not the issues.
The issue is jobs; this is the real issue.
We know the planning private enterprise does. Private enterprise plans and
strives for prosperity. We have got to learn something from these fellows, or we
have had it * * *
* * * State government is being given another chance-a chance to reassert
and assume the responsibility that we must take in order to promote a continued
partnership in this experience. This partnership must be directed not just to local,
State and Federal government, but it must also involve the responsibility of
private enterprise."
Addressed to the Appalachian Regional Commission Regional Conference,
21-24/April/1968, "Appalachia and the American Future; Toward a Policy for
National Development," by Mr. Frank Groschelle, Administrator, Kentucky
Program Development Office, Commonwealth of Kentucky.
Another important factor regarding job availability is the unhealthy financial
climate of any underdeveloped area. New business cannot emerge, nor does existing
business expand on any sensible schedule where equity capital is virtually non-
existent.
As explained in Attachment B, "Implementation of the Small Business Invest-
ment Act of 1958", practical methods can be implemented providing for equity
ownership of job creating enterprise-the worker can wind up with "a job and a
piece of the action."
III. GOALS
The objective of this program is to supplement federal, state and local govern-
ment development efforts assuring more effective use of the human and natural
resources in rural America tending to slow migration from rural areas due to lack
of economic opportunity. We will pursue this objective by (1) development of a
new capital base; (2) formation of a continuing development and management capa-
bility; (3) closer liaison between training agencies and businesses; (4) consolidation
of all job creating activities; and (5) realization of a continuing system for eentr-
prise development.
Through the experience and strength of the Council of the Southern Mountains'
Regional Development Commission, we will work with all applicable agencies to
establish and maintain a continuing liaison with the business leadership of Ap-
palachia. The Regional Development Commission, all members of the CSM, is
composed primarily of Appalachian industrialists, bankers and agency representa-
tives concerned with economic development and increased job opportunity (Ref:
Attachment C, "Participants and Proceedings of CSM Regional Development
Commission"). Working from this base, we will support and augment local de-
velopment commission activities providing a close working relationship with busi-
nessmen.
We will pursue the consolidation of job creating activities (CSM Talent Bank,
state listings, etc.), which will match job-seeking men with man-seeking jobs.
The program would not limit itself exclusively to work in rural areas. The pro-
gram would realistically involve urban and high density population areas in and
within reasonable commuting distance of the Appalachian region.
"* * * The Commission on Rural Poverty made a vast number of specific
recommendations to end poverty in rural America. In submitting these recom-
mendations, we were unanimous in the belief that the nation cannot respond only
27-754-69-pt. 3-21
PAGENO="0322"
1754
to the problems of the poor in the central cities, critical as that problem is. A
coordinated attack on both rural and urban poverty is needed."
Addressed to the Appalachian Regional Commission Regional Conference,
21-24/April/1968, "Appalachian and the American Future; Toward a Policy for
National Development" by the Honorable Edward T. Breathitt, Chairman,
National Advisory Commission on Rural Poverty.
We will pursue a system of enterprise development to create businesses from
legitimate ideas with a significant management capability. For instance: the
Iron Mountain Stoneware Plant (see Attachment D, "Awakening in Appalachia"),
a crafts co-operative, recreational facilities and supporting enterprises and many
other feasible ideas that lie dormant from lack of proper direction (Read Attach-
ment A, "Interim Report", pp. 11-14).
We will create a new capital base in this area, utilizing the Small Business In-
vestment Act of 1958. This will provide the working capital-the risk capital-
requirements for new and expanding businesses (Please read Attachment B, "Im-
plementation of the Small Business Investment Act of 1958 in the Appalachian
Region").
We will create a management group, utilizing, where possible, existing manage-
ment and technical ability in the area. This group will be capable of directly serving
the majority of the needs of the participating small businesses at minimum costs
and will have the complete ability to call in, from wherever necessary, qualified
experts to help solve any given problem.
We foresee the beginning of this management group taking the form of an ad-
visory panel, i.e., Regional Development Commission, comprised of the leadership
of the business and financial community. This group would initiate, coordinate
and advise on a continuing basis specific enterprise development and business
expansion in the Appalachian region.
To recapitulate, the objectives are to create new job opportunity through:
(1) strengthening and reinforcing of liaison between training agencies and bus-
inesses; (2) consolidation of all job creating activities; (3) realization of a system
for enterprise development; (4) development of a new capital base; and (5) forma-
tion of a continuing management group. All these activities are inter-related and
promote the same cause: "meaningful job opportunity" or "total development."
* * * About 18 months ago, we felt that somehow we ought to bring to-
gether the private industry, coal, timber, and utilities with the Department of
Labor, the Office of Economic Opportunity, the Small Business Administration
[Economic Development Administration], and others to sit down and talk about
how we could coordinate and how we could come up with a program of action
for the total development of our area. In our first meeting we had some 75 people
sit down around a table and talk about this subject. How could we do it? What
were the problems? How many jobs were available [represented by] in the in-
dustries there, so that you would not have to move people out of Appalachia?
We found that we could work together.
"At the second meeting we brought in a larger group, and we sat down, and we
got enthusiastic about it. At the last meeting the bankers came in. Now mind you,
these are people representing various industries who know the problems of labor,
of securing labor, what they need and the type of training they need to hold
down a job in [a given] industry.
"You take an industry which is in dire need of people with special training [for
instance] the coal or timber industry. We hope it will be possible to come up with
some type of training program where private enterprise and the Federal govern-
ment coordinate and cooperate to fill these jobs. We feel [in] our group that there
are something like 5 to 10 thousand jobs available right now [in the Appalachian
region], if these people could be trained.
"I assure you that private enterprise is ready, willing, and able to cooperate
and work with all agencies of Federal and State government, and I believe that
unless we start tackling the problem we can meet a year from now and we could
talk about the same things again. Action is the only thing that is going to pull us
out of this."
Addressed to the Appalachian Regional Commission Regional Conference,
"Appalachia and the American Future; Toward a Policy for National Develop-
ment", 21-24/April/68, by Mr. Frank A. Hood, Manager of Community Develop-
ment, Georgia Power Company.
IV. ASSUMPTIONS
Men Want Work. Men want work as near their homes and friends as possible.
Every man needs a job. A job enables him to support his family. It reinforces his
position of leadership within that family. It gives him a focus around which his
PAGENO="0323"
1755
life can be organized. It is his token of admission into the world of men. In our
achievement oriented society, a man who does not have a job is something less
than a man in his own eyes, as well as in the eyes of his family and others.
The people want jobs. This need has been clearly expressed in many community
meetings and in private conversations. When the poverty program began,
many began asking people what they wanted and what they needed. They
replied: "better schools, better roads, better housing, and jobs for our men."
The more rural counties in Appalachia face more difficult problems with regard
to jobs and employment potential. There are few employers and most job openings
in these counties are with "mini" businesses-one job here, four jobs there.
These establishments have neither the visibility to attract a flow of appropriate
applicants, nor the means to adequately advertise for them. Thus, the small.
employer is as isolated as the potential employee; he is also handicapped by an
imperfect view of his economic possibilities.
Underdeveloped rural and urban areas must be better represented in dealing
with enterprise expansion.
"* * * The Federal government must adopt policies that will help industry
locate a fair share of its new growth in nonmetropolitan areas; job creation.
activity must be a balanced effort, operating in areas of out-migration, as well as in
impacted areas.
Federal agencies also might set aside a portion of their purchases and contracts.
to create jobs in town and count.ry areas; and Federal installations might be
located there whenever possible.
The Federal government can help, but the major effort must come from private
industry. Unless they see the challenge and meet it, we will continue down a
haphazard course that may well prove right demographers who predict our
population will pile up on the seacoasts."
Addressed to the Appalachian Regional Commission Regional Conference,
21-24/April/1968, "Appalachia and the American Future; Toward a Policy for
National Development," by the Honorable John A. Baker, Assistant Secretary,
U.S. Department of Agriculture.
V. PROJECT REVIEW
To date, the project has identified many opportunities with potential for the
formation of new enterprise or expansion of existing business. Three geographical
areas have received detailed analysis, and each would provide ample investment
opportunity in support of a maximum Small Business Investment Company.
The project has met with great success in the organization of an Appalachian-
Wide Regional Development Commission under Council of the Southern Moun-
tains by-laws (Ref.: Attachment C, "Participants and Proceedings of CSM
Regional Development Commission"). This Commission is composed of repre-
sentatives of several major industries in Appalachia, i.e., private utility companies,
wood and coal producing companies, large merchandising firms, banks, etc., as
`well as representatives from local, state, and federal agencies. During the previous
contract period, strong emphasis has been given to Appalachian Regional Corn..
mission activities by the Enterprise Development Project and the Regional
Development Commission.
The Regional Development Commission, acting in concert with the Enterprise
Development Project, has incorporated, under the laws of the Commonwealth
of Kentucky, Enterprise Development, Inc., thus providing a vehicle of broad
and distant range for the linkage of urban and rural development activities and
the formation of a new investment capital base.
Additionally, the EDP staff has been the creative force formulating the Mount
Rogers Citizens Development Corporation and the Mount Rogers Regional
Planning Commission in Southwest Virginia (funded by the Appalachian Regional
Commission, the Virginia Division of Planning and local government-.
$100,000+).
Furthermore, the Appalachian Regional Commission, the U.S. Department
of Labor, the u.S. Department of Agriculture, the Office of Economic Oppor-
tunity, National Farmers Union, Rural Electric Administration, state-wide
agencies and many other development oriented groups have participated actively
in the project.
VI. REQUEST FOR PROJECT APPROVAL
Based on the findings and achievements of the project to date and the momen-
tum of various support activities, one may conclude that program curtailment at
this time would serve to devalue the previous investment in the project and
eliminate substantial economic development potential in Appalachia and other
undeveloped regions.
PAGENO="0324"
1756
It is herewith urgently requested that this effort be adequately financed in
order to initiate and realize the total development activities herein contemplated.
IMPLEMENTATION OF TEE "SMALL BusINEss INVESTMENT ACT OF 1958"
IN THE APPALACHIAN REGION AND UNDERDEVELOPED AREAS
The Council of the Southern Mountains Development Commission and Enter-
prise Development Project proposes to establish Small Business Investment
Companies throughout the Appalachian region (urban and rural) pursuant to the
Small Business Investment Act of 1958 and 1967 amendments.
The Enterprise Development Project (EDP), being the forerunner of this idea,
has investigated the concept for several years, either on an individual or col-
lective basis. The Council of the Southern Mountains Development Commission
met on 28-29/November/1967 to further explore the concept. At this meeting the
EDP staff was instructed to prepare recommendations and a method of imple-
mentation. The results are recorded in this definitive proposal.
The EDP staff envisions realization of a successful venture as being organized
and implemented in four phases:
Phase I-Study of need and probability.
Phase IT-Promotional and organizational period.
Phase ITT-Implementation period.
Phase TV-Continuing management activity, i.e., Enterprise Development,
Incorporated.
Phase I has been initiated by the EDP and a definite need has been determined.
Response throughout the region has been positive to the point of determining
preliminary probability in three specific geographical areas.
We would point out that the first emphasis of this proposal would be in Phase IT,
Promotional and Organizational period; however, we would need the latitude of
involving the project in all phases, depending upon factual progress of the different
areas. For in~tance: some areas stifi need preliminary probability study (Phase I)
while others may soon find themselves equipped to move on Phase III, Implemen-
tation. Likewise, the continuing management activity (Phase IV) would be neces-
sary pursuant to the implementation of, say, three (3) SBIC's. This may best be
described in graph form:
Mississippi
Alabama
Georgia
South Carolina
North Carolina
Tennessee
Virginia
Kentucky I
Kentucky II
West Virginia I
West Virginia II
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PAGENO="0325"
1757
The following document on Small Business Investment Corporations was taken
from a monthly report submitted by a program of the Council of the Southern
Mountains. This program, the Enterprise Development Project, is responsible for
this document. Any reference to such may be made by contacting Albert K.
Mock, Jr., Director, Enterprise Development Project, Council of the Southern
Mountains, Inc., College Box 2307, Berea, Kentucky, or Gerald M. Osborne,
Assistant Director.
PHASE I-STUDY OF NEED AND PROBABILITY
A. The small business investment program (quoted from statements by the SBA
Administrator)
"The Small Business Investment Act of 1958 was the result of numerous studies
made by and for the Congress on the problem of supplying equity capital and
long-term loan funds to small concerns. In reporting the bill, this Committee
cited research conducted as far back as 1935; and it is known that the existence of
the equity gap for small business had been recognized many years earlier."
"At the request of the Senate, the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve
System undertook a study on financing small business. In testifying with respect
to the Board's finding, it was reported that there is a gap in the existing structure
of financial institutions which lies in the longer-term debt and equity capital areas,
and that the primary need was in the small manufacturing field. The Board
suggested a Government program to foster the flow of private investment funds
to small business."
"After extensive hearings, the Small Business Investment Act became law, on
August 7, 1958."
"The intent and purpose of the investment program are clearly stated in
se~tion 102 of the ACT:
"It is declared to be the policy of the Congress and the purpose of this Act to
improve and stimulate the national economy in general and the small business-
segment thereof in particular, by establishing a program to stimulate and supple-
ment the flow of private equity capital and long-term loan funds which small-
business concerns need for the sound financing of their business operatiom and
for their growth, expansion, and modernization, and which are not available in
adequate supply. . ."
"At the middle of last year (1966), 686 licensed SBIC's were in existence. From
the inception of the program to March 31, 1966, SBIC's have provided more
than $1 billion in over 20,000 financings to small business concerns. Reported
interest rates reasonable in light of the risks involved. The average size of the
financings has been held at a sufficiently low level to remove any fears that the
needs of the traditional small business community are being disregarded."
B. Observations regarding the legislation and existing operations
In view of the original and amended legislation, as well as committee hearings,
it is apparent that the Congress wishes to stimulate, through provisions for
working capital of an equity nature, the expansion or creation of small business.
Interviews with officials and a careful reading of various Small Business Ad-
ministration reports illuminate several weaknesses in the Act:
1. The average Small Business Investment Company is too small and too
limited in financial resources to independently generate the income necessary
for operational overhead and a satisfactory return.
2. The inducements offered by the government to investors under the
original legislation were not strong enough to attract a satisfactory volume
of private capital.
3. Existing SBIC's, perhaps seeking to generate suitable return in order
to meet overhead and management expenses, have tended toward financing
of a debt nature rather than the intended equity-type investment.
For the most part, the 1967 amendments alleviate the second weakness; how-
ever, the initiation and realization of this method of financing is still the respon-
sibility of the individual citizen, financial organization, or development group
in a specific geographical area.
A primary recommendation of the SBA was to raise the minimum capital re-
quirements for SBIC licensing to one million dollars, tending to alleviate the
first weakness. Apparently, the Congress has not seen fit to follow this recom-
mendation; however, Small Business Administration studies indicate that invest-
ment at this level has produced the most succcessful programs.
PAGENO="0326"
1758
The financial incentives offered under Title II and recommended amendments
to the Internal Revenue Code should stimulate investment response from private
capital and tend to alleviate the third weakness.
Through the sale of its debentures to the Small Business Administration, an
SBIC which places at least 65 percent of its available funds in investments of
an equity nature could obtain up to $10 million of federal financing.
Obviously, investment of 65 percent in equities, which in many instances will
not generate immediate return, necessitates prudent allocation of income gen-
erated from the remaining 35 percent. Initial minimum investment levels would
tend to constrain the generation of overhead and management expenses as well as
potential dividends.
C. Application to the Appalachian Region (And other depressed areas)
It is a generally accepted fact that one of the underlying causes of area or
regional economic depression is a lack of capital flow generated by the return of
profit to a given area. Additionally, a dearth of investment capital precludes
economic development.
Small Business Investment Corporation capital stock, when sold to the greatest
number of people in a given depressed area, would provide equity ownership
with prospects for a return of profit while broadly diversifying investment interest
and creating new enterprise with new job opportunity.
Unfortunately, people with substantial amounts of money to invest are not
normally available in depressed areas and the "money market" is for the most
part, managed within traditional guide lines.
On the other hand, the "mutual funds" have been fantastically successful in
the accumulation of investment capital from uncommon sources by initiation
of monthly investment plans applicable to individuals of practically any income
level.
The realization of 81 million through the broad distribution and sale of securities
on a monthly basis is certainly feasible and is germane to this proposal. However,
this sales activity should be projected over a minimum five-year period, especially
if the primary customer is to be of the medium or low-income group prevalent in
the Appalachian region.
If a depressed area would seek to gain the advantages of SBIC legislation, thereby
fulfilling the intent of the Congress and facilitating from within the development
of new opportunity, a method of initial (or first offering) financing will have to be
divised.
Appalachian business leadership and financial community can be convinced.
There are many interests which could be jointly mobilized in realization of the
initial capitalization while furnishing management and certainly directional as-
sistance during the formative as well as operational periods. For instance:
Private organizations of large financial ability and vested regional interests:
1. The consolidated banks and conventional financial institutions.
2. The private power companies and other public utility companies.
3. Large manufacturing firms depending on Appalachia for raw materials,
labor or markets, i.e., the paper and coal industries.
4. Large retailing and distribution organizations, i.e., Sears and Roebuck,
the food store chains, Western Auto, and the oil companies.
Private organizations of medium financial ability with a vested area interest:
1. Local banks.
2. Smaller retail organizations.
3. Local merchant organizations.
4. Professional people and organizations.
5. Transportation companies.
6. Construction industry.
Philanthropic foundations and institutions might prove to be an additional
source for initial financing.
This preliminary proposal envisions the formulation of several SBIC's in the
Appalachian region (eventually as many as are feasible), each directly relating
to a specific county grouping designated as "Economic Development Districts"
by the several states in coordination with the Economic Development Adminis-
tration or regional commissions.
In order to amplify competent management availability while minimizing
overhead and operating expenses of the several SBIC's, this proposal envisions
the formulation of an overall management or "housekeeping" organization to
supply directly or through consultants: technical assistance, accounting services,
investment counseling, project analysis, overall advertising and promotional
activities, etc. "Enterprise Development., Inc." would not exercise final jurisdic-
PAGENO="0327"
1759
tion regarding a specific "member" SBIC's loans or investment; however, it would
be of major decision-making assistance to the area's SBIC directors and
management.
The legislation provides for joint SBIC investments, thereby increasing
financial ability. "Enterprise Development, Inc.," would supply supervision and
management for this joint investment program.
The proposal envisions "start-up" financial support for the overall management
organization from the initial sponsors of the area SBIC's in concert with philan-
thropic foundations and government agencies.
D. Suggested methods for realization of functioning SBIC's
1. Review the SBIC concept with knowledgeable financial and development
people, attorneys and federal officials including the Securities and Exchange
Commission.
2. Organize a meeting with regional financial interests; i.e., power companies,
industrial representatives, etc.
A. Enlist their technical and management support.
B. Secure pledge of maximum possible investment, loan or grant.
3. Select feasible "pilot areas."
4. Organize meeting with the financial interests in proposed "pilot areas."
A. Establish management support.
B. Secure pledges of investment.
5. Incorporate and obtain SBA license.
A. Establish boards of directors.
B. Obtain management.
C. Banks and local initial investors become "finders."
D. Call pledges.
6. Commence investments-Build broad diversified investment in specific areas
of operations.
7. Commence maximum distribution of secondary securities, offering to local
people an investment program tailored to their means, utilizing conventional
stock sales plans perfected by mutual funds.
8. Pay dividends to stock holders.
It is entirely conceivable that proper intelligent use of existing federal legis-
lation (SBA, EDA, ARC, OEO), implemented in the manner herein outlined-
creating a new investment capital base-could, within the next ten years, produce
upwards of $100 million for investment in the Appalachian region, returning to a
maximum number of heretofore uninvolved non-owners a direct dollar return,
while providing new entrepreneurial opportunity and income.
PHASE IT-PROMOTIONAL AND oRGANIzATIoNAL PERIOD
A. Boundary criteria
The Council of the Southern Mountains Development Commission proposes
to establish SBIC's throughout the Appalachian region. The Commission would
seek to establish the boundaries of the individually operating SBIC's on the
following basis:
1. Topographic features:
(a) Rivers.
(b) Mountains.
2. Historical divisions:
(a) Social.
(b) Political.
(c) Economic.
3. Transportation systems:
(a) Interstate highway.
(b) Rail system.
(c) Appalachian highway system.
4. Electric power company boundaries.
5. Federal Economic Development Districts.
6. State Economic Development Districts.
7. State boundaries.
A. Area SBIC's
Pursuant to and in consideration of the above, the proposal envisions the forma-
tion of the following capital corporations:
1. Northeast Mississippi Capital Corporation.
2. Northeast Alabama Capital Corporation.
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1760
3. Northeast Georgia Capital Corporation.
4. Northwest South Carolina Capital Corporation.
5. Western North Carolina Capital Corporation.
6. East Tennessee Capital Corporation.
7. Southwest Virginia Capital Corporation.
8. Southeast Kentucky Capital Corporation.
9. Northeast Kentucky Capital Corporation.
10. Western West Virginia Capital Corporation.
11. Eastern Wrest Virginia Capital Corporation.
12. Southwest Ohio Capital Corporation.
13. Western Pennsylvania Capital Corporation.
14. Upper New York State Capital Corporation.
15. Western Maryland Capital Corporation.
C'. Initial private capitalization
During this development period, a defined group of people and entities in the
area will be sought out to produce the initial financing or first offering. This
target group will be primarily the captive industrial interests such as:
1. Utilities:
(a) Electric power companies.
(6) Telephone companies.
(c) Gas distribution companies.
2. Transportation companies:
(a) Trucking companies.
(b) Railroad companies.
(c) Airline companies.
(d) Bus lines.
3. Manufacturing organizations.
4. Sales and distribution organizations.
5. Existing financial institutions.
(a) Insurance
(b) Banks.
6. Service industries:
(a) Professional (doctors, lawyers).
D. Operational procedure
The basic effort in the development period and later in the operational period
will be in two major categories: (1) legal and technical; and (2) promotional.
These two fields of effort wifi not be independent of each other; however, in order to
explain more clearly the development procedures, we will discuss them separately.
1. Legal and technical
The legal department will be working with two agencies in WTashington, D.C.:
The Investment Division of the Small Business Administration (SBA) and the
Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC)-in other words, the funding agency
and the regulatory agency. Additionally, the legal department must work with the
individual states' Secretary of State in obtaining state charters and other docu-
ments of incorporation.
(a) Securities and Exchange Commission: Liaison must be established with the
following divisions of the SEC:
1. 1933 Securities Act Division.
2. 1940 Investment Act Division.
3. Licensing Division.
4. Regulatory Division directly relating to the Small Business Investment
Act of 1958.
5. The Office of Chief Counsel.
The complexity of the task set forth in this program is of such a nature as to
require a close working relationship with the SEC. All contact with the SEC will
be conducted in such a manner as to guarantee compliance with all applicable
federal regulations affecting operations of the several SBIC's.
(6) Small Business Administration: In working with the SBA, we must recall
that it is (as applies to this project) an agency of three functions: 1) licensing;
2) regulator for SBIC; and 3) funding agency. The legal staff as well as the pro-
motional staff must negotiate with SBA in effecting licenses for all fifteen (15)
regions mentioned earlier. Negotiations must be performed in light of individual
state requirements which must precede federal SBIC licensing. Furthermore,
all these legal-promotional activities will be conducted in such a manner as to
guarantee eventual, maximum SBA financial participation in the serveral SBIC's.
PAGENO="0329"
1761
(c) State requirements: Each SBIC must be chartered in its respective state as
well as licensed from the federal level. For each state the legal department must:
1. Draw up papers of incorporation.
2. Obtain charter.
3. Assist in the construction of a board of directors.
4. Assist in the delineation and adoption of the by-laws.
Some states may require charter modifications because SBIC's will be invest-
ment-type corporations.
All negotiations with both SBA and SEC will be designed to result in the neces-
sary legal documentation of the proposal and to conform to the master plan for
realization of the project.
2. Promotional activities
The promotional activities of the development period are as varied and broad
as the number of areas in which the proposal operates. Whereas the legal mech-
anisms are spelled out to a point, the stimulation of the idea is subject to individual
personalities and regional economics. The majority of this effort would then be to
cultivate and organize each of the fifteen (15) regions mentioned earlier. This would
involve detailed research and statistical information on the several areas to include
population growth patterns, economic growth patterns, transportation, geographic
features, total bank assets, etc.
One of the most important tasks of the promotional staff would be the organi-
zation of commitments from the original target group mentioned earlier in Section
II. The promotional department would also work with the Small Business Admin-
istration. The promotional staff will have the responsibility to coordinate the
entire effort in this proposal toward the realization of the several licensed capital
corporations.
E. Staff organization
The staff and their lines of responsibility can best be explained by an organi-
zational chart:
(1) Project Director
Continuing
of Phase I
(1) Publications *(2) Area 9rganizers (1) Legal Directcil
Director
_____________ - (3) Secre~ari~s (2) Legal Research
(2) `Research * Men
Statisticians State Con~üitants
I (1) Legal Secretaryl
(3) Secretaries
(1) Stbno~rapher
State consultants
1. Project Director-Responsible for entire effort and coordination.
2. Legal Director-Responsible for negotiations on both state and federal level
with SBA, SEC, and individual Secretaries of State.
3. Legal Researchers (2)-Prepare and research necessary documents for the
legal director.
4. Legal Secretary (1)-Assist legal director and legal researchers.
5. Stenographer-Usual responsibilities.
6. Consultants (legal)-In many instances it will be impossible for this team to
handle some local situations. The proposal must have the latitude to call
local lawyers for these services.
7. Area Organizers-Will have designated responsibility for the promotional
and organizational requirements of the area SBIC's (one North and one
South.)
8. Secretary (1)-Usual responsibilities.
9. State Consultants (promotional)-Same as No. 6.
10. Publications Director-A tremendous amount of correspondence and docu-
mentation must be prepared for both promotional and legal activities.
The publications director would be responsible to the project director for
these items.
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1762
11. Research Statisticians (2)-Coilect and prepare necessary information for
project director to determine the several areas potential.
12. Secretaries (2)_Usual responsibilities.
PHASE Ill-IMPLEMENTATION
This phase of the operation would involve itself in four (4~ primary functions:
1. Funding of licensed SBIC's.
2. Begin formation of Enterprise Development, Inc. (management group).
3. Begin formation of sales organization (for secondary offering).
4. Building investment portfolio.
Note: During Phase III, the promotional and organizational apparatus will
become Enterprise Development, Inc. This management group will assist area
SBIC's and their management in finding and creating investment opportunity.
Simultaneously, a sales organization will be developed to make secondary offering
to the public.
Note: During this phase, the area SBIC's will begin generating income and
become self-supporting.
Cont inuat ion
of Phase II
Formation of a ea SBIC's Formation of
management a~4board Enterprise De _______________
SBA funded SBIC's
Self-generated income
Project
Director - Legal
Director
and
Staff
Phase
III
- Implementation
T~~pment, Inc~
Begin fornati1Dn
organization
of sales
- Commence buil~1ing investnient
pprtfolio [ - -~
PHASE Ill-CONTINUING MANAGEMENT OPERATION (ENTERPRISE DEVELOPMENT,
INC.) AND PLACEMENT OF SECONDARY OFFERING
AT this point, there will be:
1. SBA funded and operating "area capital corporations" (SBIC's).
2. Operating management group (Enterprise Development, Inc.).
3. Existing securities sales organization.
Note: The original staff of the project will have, perhaps, become Enterprise
Development, Inc. They will add to the staff the necessary additional personnel
and provide the area SBIC's with services through:
1. Accounting division.
2. SBIC management division.
3. Legal division.
4. Portfolio management division.
5. Securities sales division.
Note: In this phase, a secondary offering will be made to the broadest number
of people possible, using the "mutual fund" technique described in Phase I. This
offering will be made as soon a possible in order to obtain maximum SBA funding
participation provided for under the 1967 Amendments to the Small Business
Investment Act of 1958.
SYNOPSIS.-ENTERPRISE DEVELOPMENT PROJECT
BACKGROUND
In the truest sense of a somewhat over-used phrase, this is a "growth project."
It began with reasonably proven concepts supplemented by genuine experience
and surrounded by expert knowledge of a given region. The project has flourished-
spread logically over a wide range of "development facets"-until it now holds
forth real promise for continuously evolving economic growth and social develop-
ment throughout the land.
PAGENO="0331"
1763
This may not seem very modest. But it is a fact. And, many people of diverse
background and a wide assortment of talents have contributed to this growth
and development.
We believe it is important to recognize the essential factor of "evolution"
implicit in this project. It is likewise important to understand that this uncharted,
evolutionary growth of a truly promising new idea could not be possible without
the long-term involvement and expertise of the Council of the Southern Mountains
with grassroots Appalachian problems and people.
You can trace the starting point back to the experiences of the Council with an
entity called "Cannon Industries" in Barbourville, Kentucky (Ref: Monthly
Project Reports). This was an attempt to start a grassroots woodworking industry
in a recognizably depressed area of Appalachia. Through a good deal of trial-and-
error, learn-as-you-go activity, local people were brought together to form a
somewhat cooperative enterprise; training facilities were set up; contacts were
made with the "outside" that resulted in outlets for the products (in this case,
parts for educational toys-and eventually finished toys); and attempts were
made to secure adequate financing that would make the project economically
successful. The Council was involved in this from the beginning; a modest degree
of success was achieved; the company is in existence today.
As it moved along with this association, the Council became increasingly aware
of certain basic problems and needs as well as certain potentials that were in-
herent in the activity of creating new economic opportunity in "less-developed" or
"economically depressed areas."
The Council's program director, Mr. Tom Parrish, realized that some large
dividends could be realized out of the hard-learned experiences with Cannon
Industries, Inc. Starting in November, 1966, several tentative proposals were
discussed with the Economic Development Administration of the U.S. Depart-
ment of Commerce.
What might be considered as a first "delineation stage" was achieved in the
spring of 1967. The Council decided to bring together its own knowledge with the
experience gained by an outside group of another Appalachian project. This
latter was Iron Mountain Stoneware in Laurel Bloomery, Tennessee-an emi-
nently successful private-sector project that has since received a good deal of
public notice in the national press as an example of what can be done in a "de-
pressed" region of America.
Briefly, Iron Mountain initiated a government aided program (Area Re-
development Administration-EDA and the U.S. Department of Labor, Ref:
Reader's Digest, March 1968, "Awakening in Appalachia" by Joseph Blank) of
training the so-called "untrainables" who had never been on a payroll before
(the Council was also active in this training effort). Iron Mountain Stoneware
set up a thoroughly modern facility and uniquely obtained its equity financing
from a fairly wide body of investors, most of whom were local people. It now
produces and sells throughout the United States what Mr. Jorgen Jenk, President
of Georg Jenses, Inc., the famous Fifth Avenue giftware company, calls "the
finest ceramic stoneware made in the world."
Now the Council decided to bring together Albert Mock, one of the founders
and directors of Iron Mountain, Inc., and Gerald Osborne who had been its own
representative with the Cannon Industries project. In March of 1967 a proposal
was made to the Technical Assistance Division of the Eoconomic Development
Administration to investigate and document the possibilities for additional new
industry in the region. This proposal, calling for $59,800 in federal funds and
$11,000 from the Council for a one-year project plus a six-month reporting and
implementation period, was realized in March of 1967.
The contract became effective on 1 June, 1967. It called, essentially, for a feasi-
bility study of an unspecified small business to be appropriately located in Ap-
palachia. What this meant, in effect, was adapting the successful experience
gained through the Iron Mountain project to the potentialities that were inherent
in the somewhat less successful Cannon Industries project.
It is safe to say that all parties concerned at this "start-up" stage-particu-
larly Mock, Osborne and Mr. Loyal Jones, Executive Director of the Council-
were well aware of the fact that the most essential difference between these two
projects revolved around the obtaining of investment capital. They were to be-
come much more sharply aware of this essential and crucial "finance" factor as
the operation progressed.
In order to carry out the EDA Technical Assistance contract the Council set
up a new entity which, in itself, is in the process of evolving and expanding. This
was called the "Enterprise Development Project." "EDP", as it quickly became
PAGENO="0332"
1764
known, consisted of Mock as Director and Osborne as Assistant Director. In their
~suhsequent operations, they sub-contracted out the necessary statistical work to
the research department of the Council itself. In addition, they were aided by
paid consultants and an unpaid legal advisor in the person of Professor Eugene
Mooney of the University of Kentucky Law School.
EVOLUTION
During the first year a number of specific tasks were undertaken by the "EDP"
team (Ref: Monthly Project Reports). All of them related to the original assign-
ment and to many identifiable opportunities for potential development. In
essence, what happened was that as we moved more deeply into our study, our
point of view, of necessity, became enlarged and we began to see a requirement
for and justification of an expanded approach towards the contractual assignment.
Proceeding on the evaluated premise that the traditional and general problems
contributing to economic stagnation, i.e., education, communications, accessi-
bility, transportation and other physical or social deficiencies have, for the most
part, been overcome or are in the process of being rectified and now the Appa-
lachian region begins to find itself with a phenomenal potential for growth due
to its natural resources, its proximity to markets, and its potential as a recreational
and supply center for both the overcrowded Eastern Seaboard and Mid-Western
population centers-Then:
-Anyone concerned with an economic development project-large or small-
in Appalachia becomes very quickly aware of three "segments of basic
concern":
First-The problems having to do with the availability of competent manpower;
Second-The problems having to do with the availability of adequate manage-
ment or people with entrepren.eura.l experience.
Third-Those that relate to the availability of investment money.
Further, everyone who works in this region becomes increasingly aware that
these three "segments of basic concern" are not quite as they seem to be from
the outside..
-The proven experience of many people in Appalachian industrial or enterprise
development reveals that the potential for acquiring "skilled manpower" is
good-it is available in the region-but the presumed "unemployables" must
receive appropriate, well-designed training in order to become "employables."
-Again, skilled management is, to a limited extent, available-though not
always in the place of greatest need; generally, it can be said to be dispersed
over the area and must be recruited for each specific project. In many
instances, managerial and innovative talent must be imported.
-There is, however, one real problem that must be dealt with head on. The
"EDP" team ran up against it from the first; and, it does not long remain
unrecognized by anyone engaged in examining the feasibility of any business
in the region, whether "native" or "outsider." This has to do with the
availability and realization of investment capital-the lack of a capital base.
Proceeding with the identification of potential trial geographical areas, we be-
came acutely aware that there was no real financial base for small business develop-
ment in the areas of greatest need. In other words, a depressed area does, by defi-
nition, suffer from a lack of risk or equity capital. Conventional loans are readily
available pursuant to collateral ability, but this obviously does not meet working
capital requirements.
The single, most glaring deficiency relating to capital base and, at the same time,
individual economic opportunity, is the lack of equity ownership on the part of
the inhabitants of any depressed region including, of course, Appalachia.
The "EDP" staff has presented in the previous eleven progress reports and sup-
plemental material a dynamic new approach in the solution of the basic problems
of capital-of capital availability and broad-based equity ownership. This new
approach holds very large possibilities, we believe, for all of Appalachia, the urban
ghetto and many other under-developed areas of the United States.
The plan would implement the Small Business Investment Act of 1058, drawing
on large regionally captive industrial interests and the conventional financial
institutions of a given area for the first private sector investment increment. After
establishment of an investment company under the Act and the commencement
of the acquisition of a small business investment portfolio, additional public offer-
ings would be made utilizing the "mutual fund technique", i.e., "$10 per month
will buy you ownership in twenty enterprises within fifty miles of your house, one
of which may, perhaps, have a job for you."
PAGENO="0333"
1765
The plan envisions the creation of many area investment companies and the
construction of an overall management of "Technical Assistance" umbrella (Ref:
Courier-Journal, Louisville, Kentucky, 16/February/1968, "Appalachian Invest-
ment Plan Urged" by Phil Norman).
The concept is timely-It should be implemented immediately-politicians of
all persuasions have called for it-i.e.:
"Philosophies, wars, power structures, all have turned historically on the basic
questions of ownership-who owns the means of production, who owns land-for
the simple reason that with ownership goes power, prestige, security, the right to
decide and to choose."
And:
"What most of the militants are asking is not separation, but to be included
in-not as supplicants, hut as owners, as entrepreneurs-to have a share of the
wealth and a piece of the action."
Through recognition and delineation of root problems-governmental, council
and local liaison activities-continued specific enterprise development efforts-
and the construction of implementation organizations, the Enterprise Develop-
ment Project has evolved as a "total development" endeavor.
FIRST-YEAR ACTIVITIES
In retrospect, we think that the project can best be understood by visualizing
it in terms of an enlarging river constantly gaining depth and strength from its
tributaries.
First, and basically, there were those tasks we carried out in fulfillment of the
original assignment-that is, to project the feasibility of meaningful industry in
a less-developed area of Appalachia. This was the main channel of our operations.
Second, there were thos collateral tasks-tributaries-that we set for outselves
in exploring and implementing the larger thesis that has evolved. It is important,
we feel, to emphasize the bilaterial aspects of these operations.
This, then, is the background for viewing "EDP" activities.
Enterprise Development Project activities can best be presented under specific
headings which have been used consistently in previous reports:
A. Project Outline: This study was interpretive of the EDA-CSM contractual
arrangement and specified the phasing to be employed under "program imple-
inentation." The project outline delineated the reports, project phasing, project
requirements, and implementation requirements (Please see Progress Report I-
1/July/1967).
B. Staff Appointments: After appointment of Mock and Osborne as Director
and Assistant Director, respectively, by Mr. Loyal Jones, Executive Director of
the Council, further staff organization was accomplished by the Project Director
in coordination with the Council (Please see Progress Reports I, II, and IX).
C. Liaison Activities: As was established during the first month of operations
and reported subsequently, one important function of the "EDP" staff has been
a continuing coordinating and investigative activity with all appropriate govern-
mental agencies and field agencies relating to economic development. This ac-
tivity has assisted toward a reduction in duplicate effort; the investigation of
geographical areas; and the identification of feasible projects while providing
other agencies with a better understanding of the "EDP" effort (Please see all
previous reports).
D. CSM Conferences: As previously stated, one contribution of significant
value to the "EDP" effort has been the availability of total Council experience
and resources. It is through the Council and within its by-laws that the Regional
Development Commission was established. This Commission, under the chairman-
ship of Mr. Frank Hood, Director, Community Development Division, Georgia
Power Company, gains direct support and involvement from the Appalachian
industrial and financial community regarding the "EDP" and the Council.
A consistant working relationship with other Council activities has been es-
tablished and maintained (Please see all previous reports).
E. EDP Program Implementation (Phase I-Feasible Appalachian Enterprise):
This activity consists primarily of the identification and construction of an
"inventory" of possible businesses or manufacturing operations which could be
initiated in the Appalachian region.
Feasibility studies are in various stages of investigation, reporting or completion
regarding the following enterprises:
1. Cannon Industries (Report I through VI)-As previously indicated,
Cannon was barely launched with the commencement of the "EDP". Cannon
PAGENO="0334"
1766
required a great deal of assistance regarding internal management procedures
including accounting, as well as an organizational plan, a marketing pro-
gram and financing. Local leadership has been consulted with and, in many
instances, recommendations by the "EDP" staff have been implemented;
however, Cannon operation continues to suffer from a lack of strong manage-
ment and a lack of capital.
2. Recreational Development-The "EDP" staff, in conjunction with
broader Council activities, was responsible for a `Citizen's Seminar for
Action" held in conjunction with the announcement of the creation of the
Mount Rogers National Recreation Area in February of 1967. This well-
attended seminar set as its goal the creation of i\'Iount Rogers Citizen's
Development, Inc. This organization was brought to reality as a functioning
organization and voice of the people by the "EDP" staff in cooperation with
area leadership. In a broader sense, it is through an organization of this
sort that private enterprise as well as state and federal programs can flourish.
Mount Rogers Citizen's Development Corporation was directly responsible
for the creation of the Mount Rogers Regional Planning Commission com-
prising five Virginia counties, two cities, and thirteen incorporated towns
associated with Johnson County, Tennessee, and the First Tennessee-Vir-
ginia Economic Development District which was constructed by EDA.
MRCDC is now undertaking the development of a comprehensive crafts
marketing program relating to products manufactured in the Mount Rogers
area and other Appalachian areas. This unique approach involves the estab-
lishment of required tourist information centers coupled with the sales of
locally manufactured products.
MRCDC wifi eventually become the vehicle for the formulation of the
necessary investment capital base in the Mount Rogers region insuring maxi-
mum participation of a maximum number of people in the forth-coming
development of recreational and supportive activities.
3. Vaten Crafts School-The "EDP" staff was invited to consult with the
Border Guild, a Bristol, Virginia-Tennessee women's club of long history and
significant accomplishment. Working in cooperation with their crafts director,
the "EDP" staff assisted in the formulation of the Vaten Proposal, copies of
which were attached to Progress Report VI. The Vaten Proposal is responsive
to the proven fact that training for new or emerging opportunity, in this case
relating to Mount Rogers development, is necessary and integral to sound
enterprise development.
The Vaten Proposal, when implemented, will produce entrepreneur crafts-
men operating and managing their own business receiving marketing and
sales assistance through the citizen's activity previously outlined.
4. White Top Toys, Inc.-The concept for the establishment of an
additional toy manufacturing operation is a natural outgrowth or sequence
to the Cannon experience. Proceeding on the premise that well-manufactured
wooden toys are, in effect, a "craft product" and could conceivably become
family heirlooms, one can immediately devise new marketing potentials
which would tend to greatly alleviate the traditional seasonal Christmas
market, thereby greatly reducing the necessity for a large "finished goods
inventory" and the related requirement for a large working capital or debt
structure.
5. Mount Rogers Publishing Company-This concept involves "job
printing" of several area newspapers and supplemental material more than
actual publication. Further, the need for printing is dramatized by the
Council's experience with its own publication, Mountain Life & Work.
There has been a consistent and great need for better communications
throughout the Appalachian region. There is no single magazine or news-
paper devoted to news of the Appalachian region, save the potential of
ML&W.
In examining the normal distribution of "supplemental material", we have
found that a magazine could enjoy broad distribution through insertion in
county weekly newspapers and daily newspapers throughout the region.
Generally speaking, advertising rates are based on circulation. Also, supple-
ments are usually sold to newspapers.
As a matter of experimentation, working through the Mount Rogers
Citizens Development Corporation, the "EDP" staff assisted in the publica-
tion of the first issue of "The Mount Rogers Citizen"-a supplement which
was carried by all newspapers in the five-county, two-city Mount Rogers
PAGENO="0335"
1767
region, total circulation 59,000, cost $2,600 including a three-cent per copy
insertion fee paid to each newspaper according to its circulation. (Please
see copy of "The Mount Rogers Citizen", which is attached.)
We believe that this distribution technique could be applied on a much
broader scale resulting in the creation of at least one, and perhaps more,
new printing enterprises.
6. Library Binding Company-This proposed project has been selected
for complete analysis in this Project Report XII, and is recommended that
steps be taken toward implementation in Northeast Kentucky.
Phase 11-Feasible location
The initial direction of any short term development project, inventory, or survey
will of necessity and for good reason be regulated by the personal experience of the
project staff-one year will not provide time for pure statistical research or analy-
sis-or for that matter-even an "arms-length approach."
Therefore, with Appalachia as the designated area of activity, the "EDP"
staff, after consultation with other Council members, elected to initially explore a
ten-county area of Northeast Kentucky; the Mount Rogers area of Southwest
Virginia-Northeast Tennessee; and the fourteen counties of the Georgia Moun-
tains Planning and Development Commission.
NORTH GEORGIA
The Georgia area was most foreign to "EDP" staff experience but the region is
well organized. We continue to enjoy the full cooperation and assistance of the
GMPDC Director, Mr. Oliver Terriberry, and his staff.
NORTHEAST KENTUCKY
Working in conjunction with Mr. James Templeton, Director of the Northeast
Kentucky Area Development Council, the "EDP" staff and the Council statistical
staff have completed a preliminary analysis (Please see Project Report III,
1/September/67). It is this area that has been selected for location of the proposed
library bindery enterprise.
Briefly, the area has potential for immediate growth upon completion of Inter-
state 64. Morehead State University, a rapidly enlarging and vital institution of
some 7,000 students, has offered assistance in the economic development of the
region. Strong conventional financing sources currently serve the area.
SOUTHWEST VIRGINIA
The EDP" project staff, as previously mentioned, has been working con-
sistently in the Southwest Virginia-Northeast Tennessee area, and a statistical
analysis has been completed (Please see Project Report VIII, 1/February/68).
Phase 111-Feasibility and projections
Feasibility studies are in preparation or have been completed for several of the
proposed enterprises listed under Phase I. In addition to the complete feasibility
study accompanying this report, we invite examination of the Vaten Crafts
School Proposal which was complete as of 1/December/67 (Please see Project
Report VI, 1/December/67).
Phase IV-Implementation
The EDP" staff herewith requests permission to pursue implementation of the
proposed library binding business to be located in the Northeast Kentucky area.
F. Travel Schedules: Each monthly Progress Report includes a detailed report
of "EDP" staff travel-appointment dates as well as individuals visited.
Additionally, each report includes a proposed travel schedule for the following
month.
CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS
The "EPD" team, with its consultants and enthusiastic, unpaid associates,
has registered ten significant accomplishments:
First-The Cannon project was "shaped" providing opportunity for a con-
tinuation of local effort.
Second-The "Vaten Crafts School" proposal has been completed providing
guidelines for implementation of meaningful crafts development and attendant
possibilities for new enterprise.
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1768
Third-The ~1ount Rogers Citizens Development Corporation is organized
and functioning.
Fourth-The Mount Rogers Regional Planning Commission is ready for funding
(local/state/federal), and the commencement of a unified planning program in
Southwest Virginia.
Fifth-The CSM Regional Development Commission is organized-ready
for expansion of membership and expansion of program. This organization relates
to the entire Appalachian region for "total development."
Sixth-The "EPD" staff is in the process of forming an additional non-profit
corporation designed to related and meld development efforts in urban and rural
areas (Enterprise Development, Incorporated).
Seventh-The "EPD now has~a growing inventory of specific potential economic
development enterprises which are being made ready for implementation.
Eight-Complete data regarding all "EPD" activities are meticulously re-
corded and immediately available.
Ninth-the "EDP" has developed a feasible multi-stage plan for the realization
of investment capital in underdeveloped areas. The plan is a judicious and practical
mixture of the public and private financial sectors potentially providing maximum
new equity ownership for a maximum number of everyday Americans.
Tenth-A much needed enterprise of sound economic promise and new employ-
ment potential is ready to go.
The "EDP" staff recommends that this effort be expanded in order to:
1. Continue development of new enterprise in the Appalachian region.
2. Construct a new investment model for underdeveloped areas.
3. Enter a firm liaison with various urban development efforts, eliminating
competition and duplication of effort while providing for expanded economic
opportunity.
4. Maintain the inertia of the RegionalDevelopmenl Commission (eventually
"spinning off" a meaningful regional employment program matching require-
ments to people through appropriate training and education).
From an address by Prof. Eugene F. Mooney, University of Kentucky, College of Law, Lexington, Ky.]
A NEW CAPITAL BAsE FOE APPALACHIA
INTRODUCTION
An old Negro blues song from the South notes forlornly:
I've gotten down to my last pair of shoes
Cain't even win a nickel bet
Cause them that's got is them that gets
And I ain't got nothin' yet
That sentiment could well be attributed to those of us like myself exiled by our
personal choice to live in the rural areas of this country. We doom ourselves to a
backwater existence where there are no jobs worth noting and thus no personal
income to spend; no tax base worth mentioning and thus inadequate schools and
roads and government services; and no economic opportunities worth exploiting
except land often fit only to help hold the world together but which provides no
equity to pass on to our children. Our Past, Present, and Future are united by
the common theme of a chronic, crippling lack of the economic bounty others
seem to have.
Around each corner in Recent History we have discovered that it is just not
in the cards for us to get ourselves up out of the economic mud and dust. The
explanation is always plausible. It involves one version or another of the phrase
"them that's got is them that gets, and you ain't got nothin' yet."
During the 1930's when the Depression hit the cities it ravaged the country-
side-where people lost jobs in the city our people lost jobs and land and businesses
in the rural areas when vast tracts forfeited for taxes no one could pay and bank-
ruptcies were almost inevitable. The National Government enacted New Deal
programs designed to effect structural changes in agricultural and industrial
economy, but we had no industry to be benefited by these policies and the agri-
culture program, although designed to give the farmer some help, but ameli-
orated the burden of the mass exodus of people which saw 50 million of us move
to the cities for economic opportunity. The states began trying to lure industry
into our towns by tax concessions, large unskilled labor pools and revenue bond
financing. But it may already have been too little and too late when Mississippi
devised the first such program in the early 1930's.
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1769
During World War II the enormous expenditure of government monies for war
material went into the existing industrial plant, little of which was located in rural
areas. After the war we set up a few national programs to help develop the rural
areas industrially but we didn't give them any money to speak of because we
chose first to build a national highway system to connect our industrial plant
areas, provide for our common defense and put a man on the moon.
Now we are about to set out to rebuild the core of our national cities where
our people took up refuge in order to find economic opportunity and we may
discover anew that "them that's got is them that gets, and we ain't got nothin'
yet," because by definition rural areas have no cities.
All has not been one-sided. The TVA experiment in the 1920's, the Agriculture
Program of the 30's and 40's, the Small Business Administration Act of the 1950's,
the multistate Regional Commi~sions of today are examples of politico-economic
exceptions to the main thrust of our national policies. Each has had a beneficial
effect, but none has enjoyed prime position among national policies. But the
economic burden has fallen on the rural citizen and the rural states who find
themselves today with fantastic debt structures and annual debt services costs at
a time when the tax exempt status of their revenue bonds is being altered so as
to impair their primary industrialization financing device and we still "ain't got
nothin' yet." We have always been able to go to the money market in New York
for investment capital-but while not foreclosed from that booming market, in
the main that money seeks out "them that's got" to give them more. Conven-
tional private debt financing money has always been available to us at some
price or another if we had the collateral to secure it and the working capital in
our own pocket, but again "them that's got is them that gets, and we ain't got
nothin' yet." Or, to put it in more conventional terminology: Our indigenous
capital base is too thin and narrow to provide the equity financing necessary to
generate the debt financing for local economic development in which ownership
and control are retained.
Some would say we have no capital at all-but that is not wholly true. Capital
we may have, an adequate capital base we do not have. We need a new one
altogether.
I. CAPITAL BASE
What is a Capital Base? It is measured in money. But it is more than just
money-it is Investable money-surplus money-money over and above what
it takes to exist. And more than money-it includes capital assets in many forms.
But you say, money is one thing this nation has plenty of. That is the truth-
but not the whole truth.
The Wall Street Journal for July 9, 1968, carried an article announcing that
the House Banking Committee under Representative Wright Patman of Texas
has released a study of some aspects of our national capital base. The Report
estimates that our total national investable assets equal two trillion dollars.
Approximately one-half of those assets are in the hands of our so-called institu-
tional investors-banks, insurance companies, mutual funds and investment
companies. The remainder is decentralized, unconsolidated into these familiar
structural arrangements. The larger portion of the other one trillion is locked into
the capital structures of our giant industrial corporations to be invested in pursuit
of their corporate ventures and thus is not freely available as investable funds:
and the smaller portion of that one trillion resides in the multitudinous hands of
individuals scattered throughout the land.
But the primary emphasis of the 2000 page report was on the centralized influ-
ence over the estimated 2/3rds of our total capital base-that portion in the hands
of institutional investors and the 500 largest corporations-by 49 commercial
banks, all located in ten cities of this country. Tracing that influence from the
$250 billion in bank trust departments through stock ownerhsip in industrial
and financial concerns and interlocking directorates, the Report notes with
magnificent understatement that these few banks "exercise great influence over
a large segment of business in their areas." One might add also that they most
surely exercise great influence over capital investments in their areas.
I do not wish to discuss the rightness or wrongness of the antitrust dimensions
of this state of affairs. I merely want to call to your attention the size, shape and
structure of our national capital base, and note that no appreciable segment of
it finds its source in Appalachia. Quite a bit of it may find its source of profits in
Appalachia, but it finds its home-its final resting place-elsewhere. And those
who command it to perform its labors-figuratively speaking-live within a few
city blocks of each other.
27-754-69-pt. 3-22
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1770
There was a time in our History when our capital base was spread across the
land in the form of small and medium sized farms, businesses and factories. Equity
was widely scattered and jobs were conjoined to ownership of the capital assets
which created those jobs.
The economic base from which wealth was produced once consisted in the
shooting skill of the frontier hunter; the persistence of the farmer who was as
stubborn as the mules he used to plow his land; the economic vision and deter-
mination of the smalitown tradesman who knew his market by their first names.
Equity ownership-the base one exploited to enrich himself and care for his
family-lay largely within his own resources and consisted of his unique ability
to capitalize on it. Today that capital base, that equity ownership, those wealth-
production resources come in a different form and are in the hands of others.
Today that equity is little pieces of paper-stock. And-in the case of Appalachia
and other non-metropolitan areas-equities owned and controlled outside the
region with economic decisions dictated by better investment opportunities
elsewhere. Again "them that's got is them that gets, and we ain't got nothin' yet."
It is enormous. Through the fault of no one, attributable to no definable
economic thievery, because of no treasonous political trickery, an entire region
accommodating lO~ million souls in several thousand communities covering
several hundred counties and parts of thirteen states finds itself with capital re-
sources so deficient or poorly structured or mismanaged that it congenitally boasts
the highest welfare costs and the lowest per capita income, the biggest welfare
burden and the smallest industrial base, the fewest economic opportunities and
the most pressing need for them. However one chooses to measure the dimensions
of economic underdevelopment, Appalachia excels on that sad honor roll.
II. NEEDED NATIONAL POLICIES
But why compose another statistical litany of these dubious distinctions of the
region to join that ever-expanding mountain range of studies, analyses, and re-
ports wherein so little has been said in so many words by so few at such expense.
For me yet another elaborate brief composed of statistical research buttressed
by sociological studies and packaged with resounding political rhetoric would not
make the case for a new capital base any stronger than it now stands.
For me it is not necessary to explain that the name of our game begins with
"American" and ends with "capitalism." Surely it is not necessary to argue to a
native American audience what we explain over and over to Asian and African
audiences-that economic development through a free enterprise economic
system requires investment capital freely available to entrepreneurs to use in
exercise of their own best judgment.
We must build a capital base for Appalachia-and it seems to me unnecessary
to debate the matter, to study the advisability of it or to measure its hypothetical
economic effect. It must be built because the Nation needs it-not just Appalachia.
A recently published paragraph in Newsweek observed that the strong exodus of
population emigration into the large cities has begun to slacken for the first time
this century. Even more significant is the recent Gallup Poll indicating that 56%
of all Americans would prefer to live on farms or in small towns. True enough it is
that millions who were forced into the cities in search of economic opportunity
there now feel trapped there by economic circumstances, "captives" in the cities
they were described by the Chairman of the President's Commission on Rural
Poverty.
The phenomenal expansion of the so-called recreation industry during the past
half decade similarly signifies to me the yearning of our people for the timeless
grace of rural American life.
The time will soon come when the flow of Americans into our congested strip
cities, begun decades ago, will reach stasis and-perhaps-reverse itself. That time
would come much more quickly and be instituted more painlessly if we begin now
to frame policies and provide programs for creation of economic opportunities in
the rural areas of this country to permit these millions to exercise their preferences
about where they want to live and work and raise their families.
A nation which can frame and execute policies designed to redress the economic
imbalances between labor and management, can frame the policies to redress
economic imbalances among its urban and rural areas. Otherwise it will suffer the
social disruption which attends such imbalances.
A nation which can establish programs to provide enormous undeveloped recre-
ational areas for its urban population, can parallel them with programs designed
to permit local economic development of the necessary facilities to accommodate
these millions of vacationers. Otherwise it will discover its public investment in
public lands is largely useless.
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1771
A nation which can encourage creation of private capital investment vehicles
for its rich regions, can similarly encourage them in its deprived regions. Otherwise
it will continue creating a two-class society-one for the rich, another for the poor.
We have surely learned the tragic social consequences of national policies and
programs ignoring the legitimate aspirations and blighting the economic oppor-
tunities of our rural citizens and crowding them into our now-explosive cities.
To plagiarize the late John F. Kennedy: We now see that a nation which has
not taken care of its poor finds it cannot take care of its rich.
But if the national government is now interested in the development of rural
areas and pledges the cooperation of its agencies-it is yet true it will not do that
development for us. Nor will the State-or county-or anybody unless somewhere
someone undertakes the responsibility for developing rural areas, decides how this
shall be done, and sets forth to do it.
III. REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT MODEL
Meaningful economic development of the Appalachian region requires creation
of a capital base inside the region as a necessary precondition. Notice I said
"creation"-and not "importation" or "confiscation." I believe the two latter
approaches are neither economically desirable nor politically feasible. In my judg-
ment it is unrealistic to suppose that outside equity capital will enter the region
without retaining ownership of and profits from the assets it purchases by invest-
ment. The optimum net of any such approach can only be the creation of jobs-
perhaps-but no ownership in the source of those jobs. Capital has always de-
manded and gotten its pound of flesh and I see no reason to believe the rules of
the game will change for Appalachia.
I preach no doctrine of revolution and advocate no program of supplication.
The new capital base must be created from within the region itself and invested
within the region so that both the capital gains and the dividends are retained
within the region to be reinvested. We have always had some percentage of
reinvestment in the region even by the outside capital, but the first claim on
the economic gains achieved within the region has been that of the outside equity
owner. Consequently, economic leakage from the region has been unduly large
because in these private exercises of economic self-interest the percentage of gain
returned to our capital base has been miniscule. Indeed, it may be that our cap-
ital base has diminished over the past three decades, shrunk in terms of net return
to capital. Only those whose economic and social welfare is intimately bound up
with the region are likely to forego the predictably higher profits they may expect
from investing their money in New York corporations, California or the Common
Market countries and choose to return to the Appalachian capital base their
investable surplus funds.
Despite these observations I preach no dogma of economic parochialism and
advocate no government policies of protectionism.
I would like to suggest the main working parts of a model for creating a new
capital base for Appalachia which avoids the extremes I have castigated and yet
can get the job done. It seems clear to me that one of the cornerstones in construct-
ing a new capital base is the concept of regional planning and development agencies.
The region itself is the foundation for the Appalachian Regional Commission
at the federal level, a combination of the federal and state governments primarily
responsible to and for the region. But ARC is neither the only nor, perhaps,
even the most appropriate vehicle for the detailed, intimate development work
required in such a venture. Entities like the Council of the Southern Mountains,
also can play a role. Multi-county agencies like the Mount Rogers Regional
Planning Commission, Economic Development Districts of the Economic De-
velopment Administration, the Local Development Districts of ARC, community
action agencies, planning and development agencies of various sorts erected by
the state or HUD-or supported by the Department of Agriculture or Labor-
are appropriate integers in the venture. They are the beginning point for planning,
the matrix for execution, and the rallying point for consolidating information
and resources.
The second cornerstone in the structure is the creation of an equity capital
aggregation vehicle. Conventional forms of these institutions are investment
companies, mutual funds and trusts. But to perform the function here they must
be locally owned investment poois situated throughout the region. Locally owned
Investment Companies, funded with private investment capital and matching
federal money, offer the most readily available institution suited to the task. A
network of these embracing the region each with a multi-county home territory,
capitalized at $10 million each, owned by the people of the region and the indus-
PAGENO="0340"
1772
trial interests already present in Appalachia, would produce a total capital base
of several hundred million dollars combined with maximum flexibility to discover
and develop local economic opportunities. The ability to both loan and invest in
enterprises developing faderal park and recreation areas, to cooperate with the
industrial parks created by state and local industrial development efforts and to
make available the invaluable element of working capital to new and expanding
small businesses where the new interstate highways intersect would close the
present gap that exists between traditional private collateral financing resources
and public industrial site creation activities.
The third essential is investment opportunity creation. By definition the invest-
ments into which equity capital should flow would he small businesses. To me it is
undesirable to duplicate state efforts to relocate big industrial plants. To complete
the cycle then, ample new or expanding business enterprises needing working
capital to become realized economic production units must be found in Appalachia
to utilize the investment capital thus aggregated. This entails systematized process
for discovering business ideas, evaluating their economic feasibility, locating the
appropriate site and structuring the right business entity and management, plant
and financing for the venture. Those among you who have had experience in this
type of time consuming activity know the delicacy of detail, the multiplicity of
problems entailed in creating a new enterprise. Yett his activity, this matter of
midwiving new businesses, is the heart of this program, and as befits its importance
must be performed else the whole approach is wasted. For the key to qualifying for
federal matching money would be investing the private capital increment in new
and expanded businesses and the sooner the better. Formation of new small busi-
nesses throughout Appalachia is an intrinsic part of the entire approach. Conse-
quently, this activity must be provided in a systematic arrangement.
Finally, the fourth cornerstone is rationalized coordination of the new invest-
ment capital base thus created so as to maximize its economió effect. Economic
growth areas throughout the Appalachian region-like the Mt. R.ogers area, for
example-must be identified and investments utilized to enhance the develop-
ment. New parks and recreation areas, new configurations produced by the inter-
state highway net, new and expanding towns and small cities form potential
economic growth areas which need new businesses to accomodate the new demands
and utilize old products in a new way. Maximization of the impact of this new
capital base can be achieved through the management techniques whereby our
industrial conglomerates manage their farfiung and complex affairs. The computer
can work for Appalachia just as it does for General Motors. Here the multitudinous
studies, analyses and reports on Appalachia will find some meaning and perhaps
begin to justify their existence.
CONCLUSION
On the four cornerstones of local planning and development agencies, equity
investment capital vehicles, new enterprise development and regionwide economic
planning and analysis a new capital base for Appalachia can be built. For every
dollar of equity investment capital the banks of the region can make available
four new dollars of debt capital. For every $10,000 of new investment a new
permanent job is created by which an entire family can be supported. For every
$100,000 of equity investment a new half-million dollar business is created. For
every $1 million of investment ten new businesses are created. Commensurately,
per capita income increases, unemployment decreases, the tax base expands, and
a Keynesian multiplier effect of unimaginable proportions comes into play.
But the tale is not yet told. Together with the jobs and income is ownership.
Direct ownership by the entrepreneurs who established the business is augmented
by indirect ownership by the people of the region who own the investment company
which holds the equities of the new businesses.
Of all the plans and schemes and proposals currently voiced for giving the
common man a piece of the action through different financing arrangements, only
this arrangement-to my knowledge-promises to make that piece ownership.
No soft loans, no giveaway programs, no calculated tax loss operations are visual-
ized in this program for creating a new capital base for Appalachia. The investment
companies, the new enterprises and the conglomerate coordinating agency are
privately owned and controlled, exist to produce profits for themselves and to
create economically profitable ventures for the region. They will experience the
business and investment risks which attend all competitive economic activity in
this country.
Let me end on this note then, that the participants-hopefully the largest
number of persons possible in Appalachia-will he obtaining a real piece of the
PAGENO="0341"
1773
action, a bit of ownership in the economic structure which employs them and
which helps them pay for the local governmental services they need and want. It
begins to become possible for them to acquire some estate, some inheritance of
worth to pass on to their children, some asset which will itself serve as collateral
for loans, or be convertible into money, some stake on which another new
enterprise can be based.
The refrain of the song goes thus:
That old sayin' "them that's got is them that gets"
Is sumthin' I cain't see,
If you gotta have sumthin' before you get sumthin'
How you get the first is a mystery to me.
And the last verse goes thus:
I see folks with long cars and fine clothes
That's why they're called the smarter set
They got first when them that's got supposed to get
And I'll get me sumthin' yet.
Ladies and gentlemen. The time is long since past when we should set out to
git us sumthin' yet.
JANUARY 29, 1969.
GRORGIA MOUNTAINS PLANNING AND DLVELOPMYNT CoMMIssIoN-
BANK MEETING-GAINESVILLL, GA.
A meeting was held in Gainesville, Georgia, on Wednesday, January 29, 1969,
at 1:00 P.M. under the auspices of the Georgia Mountains Planning and Develop-
ment Commission and the First National Bank of Gainesville, at the Holiday Inn.
The purpose of this meetlng was to discuss possible initiation of a program in
cooperation with the Economic Development Administration and the Small
Business Administration involving the private sector through Enterprise Devel-
opement, Inc., of The Council of Southern Mountains, Georgia Power Company,
Northeast Georgia Banks and citizens.
The meeting was hosted by the Community Development Division of Georgia
Power Company.
Mr. Ray McRae, President of the First National Bank of Gainesville, Georgia,
extended a welcome to the participants. lie stated the purpose of the meeting is
to inform the regional bankers of a program leading to the realization of a new
investment capital base for use in the promotion of economic growth and enter-
prise expansion within Northeast Georgia and throughout the Appalachia Region.
Mr. McRae pointed out that he had participated as a representative of his bank
in previous meetings formulatlng this program and felt that its pertinence to
this area warranted his endorsement and for this reason over his signature the
participants were invited to meet with Mr. Albert Mock and Mr. Sonny Osborne
of Enterprise Development, Inc., and Mr. Frank Hood, of Georgia Power Com-
pany, to become conversant with Small Business Investment Companies (SBIC)
as licensed by the Small Busines Administration
Mr. Frank Hood, Manager of Community Development Division of Georgia
Power Company, Atlanta, was introduced.
Mr. Hood stated that the program to be discussed was started some two years
ago within the Regional Development Commission (RDC) of The Council of
Southern Mountains. As part of the Council's on-going program-Enterprise
Development Project, which was funded initially in June 1967 by the Technical
Assistance Division of the Economic Development Administration. The program
has evolved as Enterprise Development, Inc., and is funded by Technical Assist-
ance-Economic Development Administration in combination with the Appalachia
Regional Commission and private sources. Mr. Hood underscored his comments
by stating that "the time is now right for the implementation of a good sound
program of this type for the Appalachia Counties beginning with those represented
by the Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission.
Mr. Al Mock of Enterprise Development, Inc., stated that under the Small
Business Investment Act of 1958 there is an opportunity to meet certain develop-
ment needs of the Appalachia Region by the creation of a new capital base within
the concept of the Small Business Investment Company.
As part of 1\4r. Mock's discussion it was pointed out that Small Business
Investment Companies are in no way competitive with conventional financial
institutions, rather SBIC's serve as a supportive agency complementing collater-
alized loans through direct equity investments.
PAGENO="0342"
1774
He suggested a cooperative effort of local financial leaders, business institu-
tions, public and private utilities and individuals for investment of "front money"
to create a Small Business Investment Company thus establishing a capital base
for realization of industry, tourism and recreational enterprises and other job
producing economic activities. After a full explanation and discussion of the
proposed program, Mr. Mock opened the meeting for questions. Members
participated.
At this point Mr. Dan Hamner of Bob Pitts Enterprises, Inc., of Memphis
Tennessee, was introduced and asked to comment from the private investor's
standpoint regarding the role that this capital base could play in attracting
industrial, recreational or other investment activities into a region. Mr. Hamner
stated that in their business as with industrial development, opportunities exists
everywhere for profitable investment. The private investor becomes very inter-
ested when local financial participation is available. In other words, we are in the
business of making money, therefore, when a local community has the ability to
participate financially, the private investors are interested.
Additional discussion followed including detailed explanation of some of the
mechanics that are involved in the creation of a Small Business Investment
Company.
At the conclusion of this discussion Mr. McRae asked for individual reaction
by polling those in attendance.
i\Ir. Furman Stansell, Bank of Cumming, Gumming, Georgia: "In my area
potential prospects have been lost due to the lack of local capital. I think it is a
good idea."
Mr. Roy Otwell, Sr., Bank of Gumming, Gumming, Georgia: "This program
is needed. I offer my bank as the depository for the first million dollars."
Mr. J. F. Sanders, Bank of Dahionega, Dahionega, Georgia: "I concur. I
think it is a good idea worthy of carrying back to my local people."
Mr. Gordon Telford, Carnesville State Bank, Carnesville, Georgia: "I think
we could sell a little stock, we are the smallest bank represented, and therefore
stand to gain the most."
Mr. Hoyt Robinson, GMPDC Director, Gainesville Highway, Dahionega,
Georgia: "I am 100% for it-this would fill the missing link in this area."
Mr. A. W. Adams, Bank of Clayton, Clayton, Georgia: "I think it is worth
trying. All the available capital in my area has been used."
Mr. Nolan Spears, Northeastern Banking Company, Commerce, Georgia: "We
have missed two industries that I know of due to a lack of capital. I am in favor
of this program."
Mr. Clyde Murray, Toccoa-Stephens County, Chamber of Commerce, Toccoa,
Georgia: "This sounds like the thing that we have been booking for."
Mr. Ben Cheek, GMPDC Director, Toccoa, Georgia: "We just recently had a
small indu~ry interested in locating in Toccoa but we did not have the money.
The industry had a good idea and a good product and was well represented by
the community's existing industry, but we could not develop financial backing.
This program would fill our immediate need."
Mr. Larry McClure, Chamber of Commerce, Clayton, Georgia: "We need it-
I need it. I will personally invest $1,000 today."
Mr. Tommy Sheffield, Gainesville National Bank, Gainesville, Georgia: "We
have enough organizations, commissions, councils, etc., but if this is needed and it
seems that it is to fill an existing void, we would be interested in it."
Mr. Leon Boling, Forsyth County Bank, Gumming, Georgia: "It is long over
due. I think we are going to have to interest the individual and sell. Individuals
must support this and I think we can."
Mr. Don Thompson, Forsyth County Bank, Gumming, Georgia: "I am origi-
nally from West Virginia and watched my area die. I hope I can be a part of this
and prevent this area from dying."
Mr. Bob Mason, First National Bank, Gainesville, Georgia: "Local involvement
and ownership is refreshing. It makes sense."
Mr. Bob Evans, Ex. Director, Toccoa-Stephens County, Chamber of Commerce,
Toccoa, Georgia: "Expressed his support of this concept and asked about restric-
tions by virtue of federal involvement that might be placed on the Small Business
Investment Company."
Mr. Mock answered that to the best of our knowledge there are apparently no
restrictions beyond the three that I previously discussed and those imposed by the
Board of Directors.
Mr. J. Nolan Spears suggested that a Committee be appointed to further study
this program. The group was unanimous.
PAGENO="0343"
1775
A Coordinating Committee was appointed by Mr. McRae comprised of seven
Bankers.
Mr. Cliff Kimsey, Jr., Bank of Cornelia, Cornelia, Georgia.
Mr. Thomas Sheffield, Gainesville National Bank, Gainesville, Georgia.
Mr. A. W. Adams, Bank of Clayton, Clayton, Georgia.
Mr. Furman Stansell, Forsyth County Bank, Cumming, Georgia.
Mr. Russell Ivey, Bank of Dahlonega, Dahlonega; Georgia.
Mr. Willard Kimsey, The Citizens Bank, Toccoa, Georgia.
Mr. Bob Mason, First National Bank, Gianesville, Georgia.
Mr. Mock expressed his appreciation to all in attendance and for the warm
reception, interest and support.
Mr. McRae expressed appreciation to Mr. Frank Hood in acting as host for the
meeting.
The meeting adjourned at 4:00 p.m.
The Coordinating Committee met with Mr. Oliver Terriberry, Executive
Director of the Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission,
Mr. Frank Hood, Georgia Power Company, Atlanta, Georgia, and Messrs. Mock
and Osborne of Enterprise Development, Inc., in order to formulate a procedure
for the development and realization of a Small Business Investment Company in
the Georgia Mountains Region.
PRESENT FOR MEETING
Mr. J. F. Sanders, Bank of Dahlonega, Dahionega, Ga. 30533.
Mr. Vernon H. Smith, Bank of Dahlonega, Dahlonega, Ga. 30533.
Mr. Furman Stansell, Bank of Cumming, Cumming, Ga. 30130.
Mr. Leon Boling, Forsyth County Bank, Cumming, Ga. 30130.
Mr. A. W. Adams, Bank of Clayton, Clayton, Ga. 30525.
Mr. Larry McClure, Chamber of Commerce, Clayton, Ga. 30525.
Mr. Willard Kimsey, Citizens Bank, Toccoa, Ga. 30577.
Mr. Bob Mason, First National Bank, Gainesville, Ga. 30501.
Mr. Ray McRae, First National Bank, Gainesville, Ga. 30501.
Mr. Roy P. Otwell, Sr., Bank of Cumming, Cumming, Ga. 30130.
Mr. Donald Thompson, Forsyth County Bank, Cumming, Ga. 30130.
Mr. Thomas Sheffield, Gainesville National Bank, Gainesville, Ga. 30501.
Mr. Gordon Telford, Carnesville State Bank, Carnesville, Ga. 30521.
Mr. J. Nolan Spear,
Northeastern Banking Company,
Commerce, Georgia 30529.
Mr. Albert K. Mock,
Council of The Southern Mountains,
Berea, Kentucky 40403.
Mr. Bill Suters,
Council of The Southern Mountains,
Berea, Kentucky 40403.
Mr. Clyde Murray,
Tocca-Stephens County Chamber of Commerce,
Toccoa, Georgia 30577.
Mr. George Sutherland,
Georgia Mountains Planning & Dev. Commission,
P.O. Box 1294,
Gainesville, Ga. 30501.
Mr. Sam Dayton,
Georgia Mountains Planning & Dev. Commission,
P. 0. Box 1294,
Gainesville, Ga. 30501.
Mr. Oliver Terriberry,
Georgia Mountains Planning & Dev. Commission,
P. 0. Box 1294,
Gainesville, Ga. 30501.
Mr. Jimmy Hope,
Georgia Mountains Planning & Dev. Commission,
Box 1294,
Gainesville, Ga. 30501.
Mr. Ed Downs, State Economic Dcv. Specialist,
215 Butler Building, Room 215,
337 S. Milledge Avenue,
Athens, Georgia 30601.
PAGENO="0344"
1776
Mr. Sonny Osborne,
Council of The Southern Mountains,
Berea, Kentucky 40403.
Mr. Bob Evans, Ex. Dir.,
Toccoa-Stephens County C of C,
GMPDC Director,
Toccoa, Georgia 30577.
Mr. Cliff Kimsey, Jr.,
Bank of Cornelia,
Cornelia, Georgia.
Mr. Russell Ivey,
Bank of Dahionega,
Dahionega, Georgia.
Mr. Frank Hood, Manager,
Industrial Development Division,
Georgia Power Company,
Atlanta, Georgia.
Mr. Hoyt Robinson,
GMPDC Director,
Gainesville Highway,
Dahionega, Georgia 30533.
Mr. Dan Hamner,
Bob Pit.ts Enterprises, Inc.,
4646 Poplar Avenue,
Memphis, Tennessee 38117.
Mi. Neal Hunt
Gainesville Daily Times
Gainesville, Ga. 30501
Mr. Vinson Dover,
Dahlonega-Lumpkin County Chamber of Commerce,
Dahlonega, Ga. 30533.
APPOINTED TO COORDINATING COMMITTEE
Mr. Cliff Kimsey, Jr., Bank of Cornelia, Cornelia, Georgia 30531.
Mr. Thomas Sheffield, Gainesville National Bank, Gainesville, Georgia 30501.
Mr. A. W. Adams, Bank of Clayton, Clayton, Georgia 30525.
Mr. Furman Stansell, Forsyth County Bank, Cumming, Georgia 30130.
Mr. Russell Ivey, Bank of Dahlonega, Dahionega, Ga. 30533.
Mr. Willard Kimsey, Bank of Toccoa, Toccoa, Ga. 30577.
Mr. Bob Mason, First National Bank, Gainesville, Ga. 30501.
[From Gainesville Daily Times)
INVESTMENT POOL GETS MORE STUDY
A seven-man coordinating committee will further study proposals for develop-
ment and realization of a Small Business Investment Company for the Georgia
mountain region after a meeting of banking and investment officials in Gaines-
ville last week.
Members are Cliff Kimsey Jr., Cornelia; Thomas Sheffield, Gainesville; A. W.
Adams, Clayton; Furman Stansell, Cumming; Russell Ivey, Dahlonega; Willard
Kimsey, Toccoa; and Bob Mason, Gainesville.
Ray McRay, president, First National Bank, Gainesville, and coordinator
for the meeting made the appointments at the suggestion of J. Nolan Spears
and the unanimous agreement of the group.
Held under the auspices ofthe Georgia Mountains Planning and Development
Commission and the First National Bank of Gainesville, the meeting was called
to discuss the possibility of initiating a private investment program.
FEDERAL-PRIvATE VENTURE
Such a program would be initiated in cooperation with the Economic Develop-
ment Administration and the Small Business Administration. It would involve
the private sector through Enterprise Development, Inc., of the Council of South-
ern Mountains, Georgia Power Company, Northeast Georgia banks and citizens.
PAGENO="0345"
1777
INVESTMENT EXPERTS
Hosted by the Community Development Division of Georgia Power Company,
investment experts called the meeting to inform regional bankers of a program
leading to the realization of a new investment capital base.
The money pooi would be used in the promotion of economic growth and
enterprise expansion within Northeast Georgia and throughout the Appalachia
region.
ANSWER QUESTIONS
To answer bankers' questions on an investment pool, arrangements were made
for Albert Mock and Sonny Osborne of Enterprise Development, Inc., and Frank
Hood, Georgia Power Company, to attend the dinner meeting.
Hood, who is manager of Georgia Power Company's Community Development
Division, Atlanta, told bankers and interested guests that "the time is now right
for the implementation of a good sound program of this type for the Appalachia
counties."
Hood recommended beginning with those 14 counties which hold membership
in GMPDC.
NEW CAPITAL BASE
Mock told the group that under the Small Business Investment Act of 1958
there is an opportunity to meet certain development needs of the Appalachia
region by the creation of a new capital base within the concept of the SBIC.
He said the SBIC was in no way competitive with conventional financial
institutions. SBICs serve as supportive agencies complimenting collaterialized
loans through direct equity investments he said.
Mock suggested a cooperative effort of local financial leaders, business institu-
tions, public and private utilities and individuals for investment of "front money"
to create a Small Business Investment Company. The SBIC would establish a
capital base for realization of industry, tourism and recreational enterprises and
other job producing economic activities, he said.
ENDORSEMENTS
Dan Hamner, an official of Bob Pitts Enterprises, Inc., Memphis, Tenn., told
bankers that private investors, such as the one he represented, become very
interested when local financial participation is available.
A poll of 14 bankers and other persons in attendance resulted in 14 hearty
endorsements of the proposed investment program for Northeast Georgia.
The seven-man coordination committee met with Oliver Terriberry, executive
director, GMPDC, Hood, Mock and Osborne after the meeting to formulate a
procedure for development and realization of a locally based SBIC.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NOVEMBER 28-29, MEETING, COUNCIL OF THE SOUTHERN
MOUNTAINS REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT CoMMIssIoN, ABINGDON, VIRGINIA
(Sponsored by the Council of the Southern Mountains and the CSM-EDA
Enterprise Development Project)
Chairman Frank Hood, Director of Area Development, Georgia Power Com-
pany, Chairman, CSM Regional Development Commission, Director of CSM:
"Gentlemen, we appreciate, your interest and attendance. The purpose of this
meeting is to bring together all those individuals and organiations working on
programs in Appalachia.
"It will require the combined efforts of all to organize and push this total
development program."
P. F. Ayer, General Chairman of CSM: "The Council of the Southern Moun-
tains, through its membership, by tying together development programs in the
Appalachian region and by making use of the research done by various agencies,
can get more mileage out of present activities.
"The Council is in the people business. It works for and with people and the
Council is devoted to the quality of life in the nation.
"There is much publicity regarding poverty in Appalachia. The Council is
interested in how things are and how they got that way but more importantly in
what can and should happen.
"We are in a period when we tend to rebel, blame someone or barge ahead in a
disorganized way. We need to look at the needs and alternatives within a concept
of total development.
PAGENO="0346"
1778
"The Council stands for a united approach in the interest of all * * * we are
against nobody and for everybody.
"We, as interested, honorable human beings, should participate in the develop-
ment and creation of positive changes not necessarily accepting what is thrust
upon us. Our business is to design and create change in the meaning and quality
of life in our country.
"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, we can't do with thoughtful, dedicated,
united action."
Chairman Frank Hood, Georgia Power Company (introduction of participants
and the programs they represent).
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Director, CSM Development Project, Director of CSM:
"Coordinated effort is required before business can prosper in Appalachia. The
Enterprise Development Project seeks coordination of established industrial
and business interests with local, state, and federal programs in the development
of new business enterprises or the improvement of existing enterprise.
"The project is working in specific job producing development programs,
however, a more important consideration for this group might well be capital-
that is to say money.
"The two major problems encountered in the development of new enterprise
are entrepreneurial leadership and in Appalachia, a dearth of investment capital.
"Competent managers can be trained and a `white collar' training program
might well be implemented by this group. On the other hand, we wish to present
at this time a method for creating investment capital in the Appalachian region.
"The Enterprise Development staff has prepared an outline of the Small
Business Investment Act of 1958 with amendments of 1967. Copies of this will be
passed out. This act provides for the formation of small business investment
companies. We are seeking application of this legislation in the Appalachian
region. The EDP staff invisions the formation of several SBIC's throughout the
region with a management or "housekeeping" group capable of technical and
management assistance to each investment unit. We invite more discussion of
this program later in the conference after you have had an opportunity to review
the outline."
Clyde Ware, Program Director, Sears-Roebuck Foundation: "The Sears-
Roebuck Foundation is directly involved in community development.
"Sears is very much interested in seeing others do for themselves."
Stuart Faber, President, Appalachian Fund, Director of CSM: "Vocational
educational programs are valuable and necessary but attitude and motivation
training are also needed. Training must be focused on and coordinated to specific
needs.
"Apparently there is little to attract outside industry into Appalachia. There-
fore, growth from within offers greater potential.
"What about financing and personnel for local industry? By coordination of
local, state and federal resources in conjunction with the private sector, we begin
to put a package together."
Jack Lloyd, Director of Development, Appalachian Power Company: "Where
do we start? We must determine the objectives and common goals of this group.
"It took two hundred years to get Appalachia in the shape it is in now however,
the turning point has been reached especially during the last five years.
"Communications are of major importance. The Council should foster and
promote more meetings such as this.
"Training and job re-training are obviously important but completely frustrat-
ing unless jobs are available for people once they are trained.
"J\ly company is extremely interested in the development of the Appalachian
region. We are a captive industry. We have an enormous investment in this
region-our transmission lines are footed deep in the ground. We cannot move
therefore, we prosper in direct relationship to area growth and prosperity."
Oliver Terriherry, Director, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development
Commission: "We need t.o determine linkages to the outside area. Economic
linkages in particular. The assets of the Appalachian region are not well known
even though there has been much publicity.
"We need exposure. We need to attract. We need to develop coordinated pro-
grams. We need to recognize existing opportunities. We need to create a capital
base."
Roy Mullins, Kentucky River Coal Sales: "There is a need to train people in
modern coal mining techniques. It is my belief that there are many jobs now
available in Appalachia if we develop training programs to meet these specific
requirements. The alternative is relief programs. KRCS is interested in imple-
menting vocational education programs.
PAGENO="0347"
1779
"There is a great tendency in Appalachia to look away from existing needs and
existing assets."
Chairman Frank Hood, Georgia Power Company: "Universities and land grant
colleges have resources, technical know how and assistance under the Higher
Education Act. Coordination of all agencies is needed."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "Universities and
colleges have the potential of helping or contributing but they are primarily
interested in the region where they are located and the college is committed to
developing that region. Community colleges do engage in community development.
Capital formation growth rate-how do we stimulate this?
"There are various development models to establish, i.e., economic develop-
ment models, reconstruction models, agriculture models, education models, a
General Motors Plant model and Seventh Avenue shirt factory models.
"Programs in Appalachia are dependent on the type of models set up by this
meeting."
Norton Norr, Industrial Pallet Company: "The Industrial Pallet Company
has twenty-eight mills in the Appalachian area, primarily employing unskilled
labor.
"It seems to me that many large companies could be encouraged to buy products
manufactured in Appalachia. An effort should be organized in contacting large
companies, establishing their requirements and hopefully through creation of local
industries, meet their needs.
"Financing and management will be of major importance if this approach is
to be realized.
"We must pay attention to existing opportunities tending to obtain where
possible subcontracts and government procurement contracts."
Stuart Faber, Appalachian Fund: "A total development program is needed to
coordinate and communicate. Various programs have one goal but they are
unorganized and all are going toward this goal but not together.
"The legacy of this group is to facilitate the private sector in carrying on
programs."
Koder Collison, Appalachian Regional Commission: "The Appalachian Re-
gional Commission is known as the `highway builder.' Appalachia is an island in
the middle of prosperity. Schooling and management training are needed to push
the desires of the people.
"The Appalachian Regional Commission is a depository for information to aid
and assist local development programs."
Dan Stewart, Director of Community Development, Kentucky Utilities Com-
pany: "We must be aware that in five to ten years hence jobs that seem important
today will not exist. We must develop vocational schools and educational programs
aimed at meeting the needs of the future.
"We must provide local opportunities allowing opeple to remain and prosper
at home. Appalachia does have a big future and everyone involved in this meeting
is involved in the future."
Lauren B. Hart, Small Business Administration (positive reference to the
outline of SBIC's as presented by the EDP staff while elaborating on the program):
"The Small Business Administration is interested in investing in the people and
combining all factors in developing the region."
Chairman Frank Hood, Georgia Power Company (adjourns meeting).
Chairman Frank Hood, Georgia Power Company (requests participants'
responses).
Bill Suters, Associate Executive Director for Development, CSM: "This group
must be the nucleus of sound development programs for the region. The Council
through the Regional Development Commission, is the only organization at this
time which can bring together all of the development elements now existing into
a total development program.
"We have the obligation to bring in other enterprises concerned with Appalachia
so they can participate and add to a total development program. This is just the
beginning of what can be and must be if Appalachia is to prosper."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "It is my observa-
tion that the single word summing our meeting thus far is coordination. We are
all members of the Council. I suggest that this group formally become the Council
of the Southern Mountains Regional Development Commission."
James Redmond, Director, Ninth District Opportunities, Inc., Gainesville,
Georgia: "We must continue in the recognition and defining of practical programs
and establish procedures for realization."
PAGENO="0348"
1780
Jim Templeton, Director, Northeast Area Development Council, Olive Hill,
Kentucky, Director of CSM: "I wish to invite this group to attend the Council's
Annual Conference, April 17-18-19, 1968, Phoenix Hotel, Lexington, Kentucky.
"We request that this group consider meeting during the Annual Conference.
"Speaking for my own organization and efforts in Northeast Kentucky, we wish
to endorse and encourage the establishment of investment corporations in the
Appalachian region.
"We must immediately implement existing federal legislation in conjunction
with private enterprise."
Stuart Faber, Appalachian Fund: "This group is making real progress and we
can start on expanding businesses. There is a need for capital, management
training, central management, combined sales and subcontracts. We should think
in terms of the SBIC concept."
Fillmore McPherson, District Manager, Appalachian Power Company, Abing-
don, Virginia: "The road program is opening up the area for industry and eco-
nomic growth. There should be one agency for Appalachian programs. The CSM
can provide concise case histories of how communities solve their problems."
Jim Wood, Kentucky Power Company: "Appalachia is a definable area but
there is a diversity of problems versus a single solution. The problems, as I see
them, are training, capital and communication.
"This corporate group represents talent and ability but we need to further de-
centralize into committees to concentrate on implementing specific areas such as
management training."
Jack Lloyd, Appalachian Power Company: "This group has a common goal in
the region and the CSM should have more of this type of communication to view
problems. I suggest looking into education and forming a committee. We need to
determine areas of need and establish training programs but it is important that
there be jobs for people once they are trained. Housing and public facilities need
to be developed. If the CSM does nothing but have meetings like this, at least it
has communicated."
Koder Collison, Appalachian Regional Commission: "We must encourage this
group to get their state governors involved in this development program.
"Everyone must be involved. The people of Appalachia are the pioneers of
today."
Clyde Ware, Sears-Roebuck Foundation: "The Sears-Roebuck Foundation has
given financial support to the Council and its activities in the past. We pledge our
continued interest and support."
Tom Longshore, Director of Development, Alabama Power Company: "The
primary problems as we see it are training to meet job requirements and the
financing of existing or new enterprise. Development of both training and oppor-
tunities must be linked to existing resources."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commis-
sion: "Ideas are a dime a dozen-too make good ideas function, it takes money.
In any event we have learned two important things. First, never refuse to listen
to an idea and second, when good ideas are presented, we try to carry them to the
right, people for implementation.
I would like to present a sort of formula for development i. e. Economic Dc-
velopmend (ED) equals an ideal (I) pius management (M) times dollars (8)
ED= 1+ MX S."
Karl Bays, Vice President of Operations, American Hospital Supply Corpora-
tion, Director of CSM: "It is my hope that action programs and continued at-
tention to needs will result of this meeting.
"I believe we should formally organize this group as a Regional Development
Commission. However, it is my feeling that we should eventually appoint com-
mittees who can work in specific fields: for instance, training and finance.
"We must relate the problems of urban areas, now housing displaced Appa-
lachian people, to our development programs in Appalachia. It is a well proven
fact that most people, given the opportunity to make a decent living, will im-
mediately return to their home."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "The Council of
the Southern Mountains has the potential to pull these activities together. If the
Council is weak in certain areas, then we as members can fix it.
"The Council is currently operating a "Talent Bank" program which seeks to
place qualified people in responsible positions in Appalachia. It is my feeling that
this effort can be broadened and can be related directly to Mr. Bays' concept of
replacement of Appalachian people once local opportunity is available to them."
P. F. Ayer, General Chairman of CSM: "Perhaps most of you are familiar
PAGENO="0349"
1781
with the Council publication Mountain Life & Work. It is our plan to go on a
new monthly schedule. Perhaps our publication could serve in helping to put
available jobs and people together."
Garland Nicely, Financial Division, Small Business Administration, Richmond,
Virginia: "SBA encourages local banks to make loans to further community
interest and support. SBA requires no commitments until there is complete
agreement. For SBA information, contact state and regional SBA offices."
Lauren Hart, Small Business Administration: "This group should concentrate
on development of different programs especially finance.
"It is my recommendation that this group should meet again in January and
begin to familiarize itself with all federal and state lending programs. Within the
scope of your Enterprise Development Project, I would recommend that you con-
struct a preliminary prospectus outlining application of several existing programs
including SBIC's in Appalachia. It is my feeling that your preliminary prospectus
can be presented in Washington on an informal basis. The word right now is-
go."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "I pledge my
assistance in working out the legal aspects of the formulation of several SBIC
companies in Appalachia. However, this group must sell the idea to the money
people.
"Working in conjunction with the Enterprise Development staff, we will pre-
pare a prospectus and blueprint. I will assist in the writing and presentation of
the proposals.
Stuart Faber, Appalachian Fund: "It is my opinion that we should assist the
development of the SBIC concept in every way possible.
"If a motion is in order at this time, I wish to propose that the primary objec-
tives of this group be the stimulation of new and existing business in Appalachia
and further that the Enterprise Development staff pursue the SBIC project."
Karl Bays, American Hospital Supply Corporation: "Seconded-and the
motion carried unanimously."
Chairman Frank Hood, Georgia Power Company: "We were looking for a handle
and we have found the handle. There is a lot of information and money in Wash-
ington to be tapped if we become part of the programs that they are trying to
promote. We are trying to promote the same programs. We should become familiar
with and be a part of federal programs that are trying to do jobs that we say we are
trying to do. All must tackle the job.
"Select one item as a kick-off project. Get something moving and keep the other
as part of the programing but go step by step. Combined efforts can convince the
people in the area what we want to do for them."
P. F. Ayer, General Chairman of CSM: "This group has a common dedication to
the situation in the area. Plan constructive solutions to problems. Build the
economy then build constructive things for the people to be involved in. Take first
things first. We are saying let's be together and see what we can accomplish."
Chairman Frank Hood, Georgia Power Company: "Are weon the right track?
The group will determine how we will operate. New meetings will include other
agencies. The Department of Labor will go along with re-training or training pro-
grams. We need a proposal on training concepts. Technical assistance proposal
with EDP staff given ability to follow-up on this meeting."
Stuart Faber, Appalachian Fund: "Go to groups already organized to train and
ask them to set up job training for specific needs. This group is to concentrate on
expanding and starting businesses.
"Motion: That management training be by groups already set up. The CSM
will coordinate related efforts. The CSM should get a grant from the Labor
Department to create or improve new and existing programs."
Karl Bays, American Hospital Supply Corporation: "Seconded motion. The
motion was unanimously accepted."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission:
"The CSM should devote itself to management control. The CSM should structure
itself to be the focal point where the guy with the idea can come and draw on a
mass resource."
Jim Templeton, Northeast Area Development Council, Olive Hill, Kentucky:
"I move that the Chairman appoint an executive cabinet to consist of not less
than five and possibly include more."
Stuart Faber, Appalachian Fund: "Seconded the motion that was unanimously
accepted."
(Committee appointed by mutual consent of the group-See attached list.)
Karl Bays, American Hospital Supply Corporation: "The CSM needs funds
and we like four figures on the check."
PAGENO="0350"
1782
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Minutes of this
meeting and a list of the participants will be provided to each participant in the
next two weeks."
Koder Collision, Appalachian Regional Commission: "Recommends that repre-
sentatives of the CSM go to Washington and meet with ARC and talk about
CSM program."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission:
"Recommends conference with top people of EDA, FHA, HUD and SBA to let
them know what the CSM is about. The CSM should conduct more multi-state
and community meetings. This meeting is exceptional and unusual in that bound-
aries have been broken. This is commendable. The CSM staff should meet with
different groups and tell what the CSM is but stay with the working group for
contact with agencies."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "Talk is cheap and
is no substitute for action. Effective action is what the CSM group must do. Get
a proposal on paper and do it. There is no substitute for putting money into the
group."
Koder Collison, Appalachian Regional Commission: "Negative individuals are
uninformed individuals."
Chairman Frank Hood, Georgia Power Company: "All commission members
will meet Tuesday, January 9, 1968, in Lexington, Kentucky."
(Adjourned meeting.)
Participants, Council of the Southern Mountains, Inc., Enterprise Development
Project, November ~8-~9, 1967, Abingdon, Virginia
Mr. W. S. White, Assistant Vice President, Appalachian Power Company,
P.O. Box 2091, Roanoke, Virginia 24009.
Mr. Jack Lloyd, Appalachian Power Company, P. 0. Box 2091, Roanoke, Vir-
ginia 24009.
Mr. Fillmore McPherson, Appalachian Power Company, Abingdon, Virginia
24210.
Mr. Tom Longshore, Alabama Power Company, 2100 First Avenue, North,
Birmingham, Alabama 35200.
Mr. Dan Stewart, Kentucky Utilities Company, 120 South Limestone, Lexington,
Kentucky 40507.
Mr. Norton Norr, Industrial Pallet Company, 2177 5 Taylor Road, Cleveland,
Ohio 44118.
Mr. J. M. Wood, Kentucky Power Company, 340-15th Street, P. 0. Box 1428,
Ashland, Kentucky 41101.
Mr. Roy Mullins, Kentucky River Coal Sales, P.O. Box 539, Hazard, Kentucky
41701.
Mr. Garland L. Nicely, Financial Division, Small Business Administration, 1904
Byrd Avenue, Richmond, Virginia 23226.
Mr. Lauren B. Hart, Small Business Administration, 811 Vermont Avenue, N.E.,
Washington, D.C. 20416.
Mr. Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountain Planning and Development Commis-
sion, P. 0. Box 1986, Gainesville, Georgia 30303.
Mr. James Redmond, Ninth District, Opportunities, Inc., P. 0. Drawer L,
Gainesville, Georgia 30303.
Mr. Koder M. Collison, Appalachian Regional Commission, 1666 Connecticut
Avenue, NW., Washington, D.C. 20009.
Mr. C. W. Henderson, Northeast Area Development Council, P. 0. Box U,
Olive Hill, Kentucky 41164.
Mr. Jim Templeton, Director, Northeast Area Development Council, P. 0. Box U,
Olive Hill, Kentucky 41164.
Mr. Eugene F. Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky Law School,
University of Kentucky, Lexington, Kentucky 40506.
Mr. Clyde D. Ware, Sears, Roebuck Foundation, 675 Ponce de Leon Avenue,
N.E., Atlanta, Georgia 30307.
Mr. Stuart Faber, President, Appalachian Fund, 401 Oliver Road, Cincinnati,
Ohio 45215.
Mr. Karl Bays, Vice President of Operations, American Hospital Supply Corpora-
tion, 2020 Ridge Avenue, Evanston, Illinois 60201.
Mr. Frank Hood, Manager, Community Development Division, Georgia Power
Company, P.O. Box 4545, Atlanta, Georgia 30302.
Mr. P. F. Ayer, General Chairman, Council of the Southern Mountains, CPO Box
2307, Berea, Kentucky 40403.
PAGENO="0351"
1783
Mr. William H. Suters, Jr., Director of Development, Council of the Southern
Mountains, CPO Box 2307, Berea, Kentucky 40403.
Mr. Albert K. Mock, Jr., Director, Enterprise Development Project, Council of
the Southern Mountains, CPO Box 2307, Berea, Kentucky 40403.
Mr. Gerald Osborne, Assistant Director, Enterprise Development Project,
Council of the Southern Mountains, CPO Box 2307, Berea, Kentucky 40403.
Mr. Tom Mustard, Community Action Technician, Council of the Southern
Mountains, CPO Box 2307, Berea, Kentucky.
Mrs. Benny Roop, Secretary, Council of the Southern Mountains, CPO Box 2307,
Berea, Kentucky.
Mrs. Philip Worley, Assistant to Mr. Suters, Council of the Southern Mountains,
CPO Box 2307, Berea, Kentucky 40403.
Mrs. P. F. Ayer, Berea, Kentucky 40403.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE JANUARY 9, 1968, MEETING, COUNCIL OF THE SOUTHERN
MOUNTAINS REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT COMMISSION, LEXINGTON, KENTUCKY
(Sponsored by the Council of the Southern Mountains and the CSM-EDA
Enterprise Development Project)
Chairman Frank Hood, Director of Area Development, Georgia Power Com-
pany: "Gentlemen! Welcome, snow birds. This is our second meeting to try to
determine programs in which we all can participate. We will begin with introduc-
tions.-Mr. Loyal Jones, Executive Director of the CSM, will give the welcome."
Loyal Jones, Executive Director, CSM: "First of all it is a sad duty to say that
Perley Ayer who welcomed you at your last meeting passed away December 23.
We miss him here, we've already missed him at the Council, and he will be missed
in the Appalachian region.
"We welcome you as representatives of private enterprises who invest and em-
ploy in the Appalachian region.
"We are interested in where Appalachia will fit into the nation's picture. (Labor
and employment force-statistics).
"We are concerned with the problems of urban America especially as they relate
to out migration of Appalachian citizens. We must create opportunities, both
present and future, for the people of this region.
"We welcome you to this meeting. We welcome you to membership in the
Council. We welcome your ideas. We will accomplish a great deal together."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Director, CSM Enterprise Development Project, Director
of CSM: "At the previous Abingdon meeting, the CSM's EDP staff was charged
with organizing a presentation regarding the implementation of the Small Business
Investment Act of 1958 in the Appalachian region. The proposal ellclosed in the
folder before you is in an outline form based on our current reading of the legisla-
tion as well as conferences with the administering federal agencies and the
Appalachian Regional Commission. This outline was prepared by the EDP staff
with the cooperation of Professor Mooney of the University of Kentucky College
of Law.
"The outline is, we believe, to a great extent self explanatory. However, in order
to evoke direct questioning from the group, I will touch several key points.
"Through implementation of the legislation, we can provide for investments
of an equity nature in the Appalachian region. That is to say, we have a method
for supplying much needed but illusive working capital. While broadening existing
or emerging enterprises, we will be creating new employment opportunities at all
levels. Conventional financing well collateralized is available. Risk capital is not.
Additionally the techniques envisioned in the proposal provide for maximum
ownership on the part of the broadest number of people in the region.
"Simply stated we have the opportunity through implementation of the act
to create new income providing opportunity through employment and simul-
taneously through ownership.
(Mr. Mock explains the outline including the act and the proposal for action.)
"Mr. Mooney, Mr. Osborne and I will now attempt to answer your questions
or elaborate where requested."
Oliver Terriberry, Director, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development
Commission: "Can you cooperate with other SBIC's in the same framework
and draw on their knowledge?
"What is the relationship to develop between SBIC's and banks at the national
level?"
PAGENO="0352"
1784
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Banks are investing
in SBIC's. They are finders of investment opportunities in their areas.
"SBIC's participate in management development, training programs and
management of proper procedures for development. SBIC's can within SBA
regulations invest jointly in a single venture."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission:
"Does the SBIC have an interest earning component? What percent can be
put into debt financing? Can SBIC's participate in loans to a third party with
banks?"
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Yes. In order to
qualify with the SBA a certain percentage of SBIC investments can be in the
form of loans or debt financing. However the primary purpose is investment of an
equity nature."
"In any event SBIC's will tend to supplement and support conventional bank
financing; not compete.
"The guide lines are of course subject to modification. However, I believe, we
can assume at this point that SBA will look favorably on a debt to investment
ratio of 35%-65%.
"If we are going to do anything significant with money in Appalachia, we
must concentrate on investment opportunity in deference to loans.
"Obviously the SBIC'S must generate enough income to meet operating costs
and hopefully this can be done within the 35% loan margin therefore it follows
that a minimum successful SBIC will be initially capitalized at levels providing
for income and long term investment.
"The best reading of SBA documentation leads us to believe that the minimum
SBIC should he initially capitalized at one mfflion dollars (S1,000,000).
"The SBA guide lines indicate that after 65% of the initial capitalization is
invested then federal funds become available at a ratio of 2 to 1.
"The EDP proposal envisions the initial capitalization of the several SBIC's
coming from the large industrial interests in Appalachia and after perfection,
that is to say investment by the SBA, a secondary offering to the largest number
of people that can be attracted. Now the initial investment could be supplanted
by the secondary offering or both the first and second offering could remain
thereby doubling the investment capacity of each SBIC.
"On the one hand we have the initial investor maintaining his position. On
the other hand we have the initial investor allowing the resale of his equity. We
of course prefer and believe that the initial investment should remain and be
augmented by the second offering."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission:
"Could both work?"
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Yes, both could.
In the second offering we envision implementation of a quote "mutual fund sales
technique". That is to say the opportunity to purchase an equity position in the
SBIC's would be offered at a rate as low as ten dollars (510) per month and the
leverage provided the second investor relates to two facts: first, reasonable proof
of successful investments by use of the initial capitalization as well as SBA
participation and second, the 2 to 1 ratio. Thirty-three and one-third cents buys
you a dollars worth of the action."
(Mr. Mock proceeds with additional amplification of the proposal.)
"Mr. Mooney perhaps you have additional comment at this time."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "The SBIC's and
conventional banking will tend to support each other in the Appalachian
region. As is to be expected, there is a gap between conventional financing and
equity in this area. Small country banks are severely limited, however, the SBIC's
would not be a competing industry.
"WTe think the relationship and involvement with local banks is essential and
that the banks in turn will become the finders of investment opportunities.
"One of the most potentially productive elements of the proposal before you
is the concept of an overall management corporation. The SBA will insist on
quality management. The SBA has discovered that a primary key to successful
operations of SBIC's is management and evaluation of investments.
"Management consultation would be available to all of the operating SBIC's
thereby lowering the operational overhead of each unit.
"Obviously there is no substitute for local involvement and local management
which would be supplied in the form of a board of directors and full time but
limited staff by each SBIC in its operating area. However, the management
PAGENO="0353"
1785
group concept would tend to provide a higher level Of specific technical assistance
than might be obtained locally while eventually providing overall services in
accounting and management assistance."
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "The management
group would tend to make itself knowledgable of all development activities that
have taken place in the area, coordinating findings that could be acted upon from
an investment standpoint."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission:
"Appalachia is a ready made buyer."
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Yes. Profit stays
in the area. No limit, but SBIC's must be careful to limit administrative
overhead."
Koder Collison, Appalachian Regional Commission: "Has any investigation
been made of SBIC's that failed and why they failed?"
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Yes. We are ill
advised to start out with less capital than what paper projections show is necessary
for success. If we don't get up to a proper capital level of operations, we fail
before we start."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "SBA is not
interested in investing in SBIC's of less than one million dollars ($1,000,000). They
are not interested in personal vehicles.
"This can be done and this whole venture has been encouraged by SBA. The
proposal envisions the eventual creation of 15 SBIC's in the Appalachian region,
having a total cumulative investment potential under current SBA regulations
of one hundred and fifty million dollars ($150,000,000). One hundred and fifty
million dollars would make a big lick if it is well placed in high growth enterprise.
"Capital gains potential spurs investors to get into SBIC's. Capital gains
potential must be realized if the Appalachian area is going to be developed.
"If Appalachia can be economically developed, this is the vehicle for doing it."
Jack Lloyd, Director, Area Development, Appalachian Power Company:
"Where do you anticipate the market for this money to be? How do you sort good
from bad ventures?"
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "Invest in small
businesses. Not all money in one gigantic concern."
Jack Lloyd, Appalachian Power Company: "It takes more than just wanting
to be in business. If we are going to invest capital how are we going to prevent
business failure?"
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "Implement good
evaluation procedures. Be aware of the possibilities of failure. That is why SBA is
interested in management procedures."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission:
"What enterprises are we going to invest the money in?"
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "The final invest-
ment decision will rest with the SBIC boards and management which have in turn
been constructed of the investors."
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "I believe Jack is
asking for ways to minimize potential failure or bankruptcy.
"By virtue of the facts that the SBIC has made an investment it has a right to
impose certain management procedures. The legal construction of each SBIC
loan or investment will provide for and insure management."
Bert Bradford, Area Development Manager, Charleston Group Companies,
Columbia Gas System, Inc.: "Assistance by insistence?"
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Yes. No other
financial organization is geared to do this. By investment the SBIC becomes an
owner with other investors in a given enterprise.
"We envision each SBIC board member participating in the management of a
segment of the portfolio of investments of his organization."
Bert Bradford, Charleston Group Companies: "We would be able to recognize
problems before they become acute?"
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "Yes. Management
capacity would be available in each SBIC and when necessary from the manage-
ment group."
Harry Carloss, Vice President Business Development, Kentucky Utilities
Company: "We have to make provisions for some failures."
Tom Longshore, Assistant to the Executive Vice President, Alabama Power
Company: "Does SBIC hire local managers?"
27-754-69-pt. 3-23
PAGENO="0354"
1786
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Yes. I believe
board members should be paid. Each board member would have a direct re-
sponsibility for certain investments by his SBIC.
"Additionally each SBIC would have a full time manager and clerical assistance."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "The board
evaluates feasibility of loans or investment ventures, has continuing knowledge
and makes critical decisions or asks for technical assistance from the manage-
ment group. They work out details of how involved the SBIC is in local enterprise
concerns."
Stuart Faber, President, Appalachian Fund: "What we are concerned about
is what are the definitions in terms of geography. Could areas solve problems by
themselves?"
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "The real problem
is the capital required. Major thrust is toward small business."
Stuart Faber, Appalachian Fund: "What about management problems of
one man operations?"
Bert Bradford, Charleston Group Companies: "Not interested in filling stations,
etc."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "We
are exploring ideas today. Ideas of where to pull in other groups. We have to get
an idea of what we want to talk about when we bring in bankers, etc."
Stuart Faber, Appalachian Fund: "Are we considering management company
to provide, not planning management as much as day to day management?"
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "The SBIC's are
autonomous and make the final investment decisions. They are responsible for
day to day management however the management group could reduce operating
overhead by shouldering many housekeeping activities while providing, on request,
a high order of technical assistance."
Stuart Faber, Appalachian Fund: "Where do we stand at this point with our
SBIC proposal?"
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "The Regional
Development Commission of the Council has instructed the EDP staff to con-
struct a proposal which has been submitted to the Appalachian Regional Com-
mission.
"The total price tag for ~ three year program is approximately seven hundred
thousand dollars ($700000). We are currently feeling around to see if Washington
wants to finance this."
Koder Collison, Appalachian Regional Commission: "John Whisman, State's
Co-chairman of the Appalachian Regional Commission, has had preliminary
conversations with Arnold Liebwitz (Director Technical Assistance Division,
Economic Development Administration, U.S. Department of Commerce).
Additionally, Mr. Whisman is discussing this program with industrialists in New
York and plans additional conferences regarding this proposal on January 23,
at Columbia University.
"Mr. Whisman is enthusiastic and wishes to encourage this group. We at AR.C
believe this to be a proper EDA project and we feel that perhaps EDA will go
ahead.
"My personal concern is with management. In order to keep failures at a mini-
mum, we need people with know-how to be on the backs of companies that may
be established.
"We must not overlook industrial development at state levels and it is my
recommendation that the governors of the states concerned should be involved."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "All
governors are interested. WTe must show them the need for this."
Koder Collison, Appalachian Regional Commission: "This is a handle. We
have something that can be sold."
Harry C. Campbell, President, Big Sandy Coal Operators Association: "What
kind of financing can SBA provide?
"Is there a training program under SBA already established instead of our get-
ting a new government training program?
Norman Kirkwood, Loan Officer, SBA-Louisville, Kentucky: "Yes."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia ikiountains Planning and Development Commission:
"We won't know training requirements until we know what kind of ventures we
are going to make. Colleges don't train ready-made managers but they can be
trained in vocational schools and in part by local business people."
Seth Kegan, Beth-Elkhorn Corporation: "SBIC consultant-does he delve into
the business? Does he run the business? How involved is SBIC? Do we give the
money and run it?"
PAGENO="0355"
1787
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "We pull
together business and other interests in Appalachia to solve this problem. We are
here to get your know-how. We are just now exploring and organizing as a team
to tackle what we want to do. This is an expansion of all available programs-a
jell of contributions-to get a job done that we otherwise wouldn't have."
Tom Longshore, Alabama Power Company: "We are getting our feet wet as
to what the problems might be."
Jack Lloyd, Appalachian Power Company: "We are trying to see if the private
sector and CSM, as leader, can't get the federal government to solve some of our
problems by providing capital."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "We are
trying to do a job together that we haven't been able to do by ourselves."
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "And make a dollar!"
Norman Kirkwood, SBA-Louisville, Kentucky: "SCORE managers are located
in areas outside Appalachia. It is hard to get them to come to Appalachia because
their services are free."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "Couldn't
we encourage SBA to help?"
Norman Kirkwood, SBA-Louisville, Kentucky: "Interest them in aiding your
management group."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission:
"There are general resources in a half dozen different agencies. Envision centraliza-
ing their services and learn of services available. There is a multitide of services
that can be used. Concept of program will solve a lot of details."
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CS1VI: "Is it possible now to
get the initial proposal accepted by the Commission and then another mandate to
follow through on funding the proposal.
"I propose that if the Commission so desires-make motion to accept this
work-accept here subject to review if you desire and vote a mandate to carry the
proposal through to funding."
Dan Stewart, Director, Community Development, Kentucky Utilities Com-
pany: "The EDP staff has done a splendid job in setting up the course of activity
by this outline and bringing us up-to-date. The next step is to agree with Al and
go ahead for setting up procedures. I say go ahead."
Harry Carloss, Kentucky Utilities Company: "It would appear that a logical
first step is to do a mapping as it were; we need to work and get a sampling of
interests in a specific area. Once feasibility is established, we can come back to the
Commission and then get money to establish 15 areas.
"The establishment of strong interests in a given area will provide a sales tool
which can be presented to the various federal agencies concerned in obtaining
money for the establishment of the proposed SBIC's."
Jack Lloyd, Appalachian Power Company: "Promotional and selling activities
on a big scale will be required."
Jim Templeton, Director, North East Kentucky Area Development Council:
"Money for promotion of this-where do we get it?"
Koder Collison, Appalachian Regional Commission: "We should come up with
some kind of motion to continue this."
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "We have got to get
a testing and I agree with Mr. Carloss but we need a mandate from this
Commission."
Seth Kegan, Beth-Elkhorn Corporation: "We are headed in the right direction
on the basis of the groups represented here. We in Appalachia are interested and
we start picking out building blocks where we are going to build. Al has it outlined
here."
Frank 1-lood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission: "Mr. Kegan,
would your group sponsor this type of program?"
Seth Kegan, Beth-Elkhorn Corporation: "Yes, there is an area interest."
David Zegeer, Division Superintendent, Beth-Elkhorn Corporation: "May I
discuss briefly some of the underlying causes of the Appalachian economic situa-
tion. A major problem is dropouts. The answer is to go back to the school's
physical plant and its educational competence. It's difficult to hold leaders or
management because of schools. Elementary schools need to be upgraded; voca-
tional training is important. We rely upon extractive industries. Appalachia needs
something to attract new industry. A big problem here is probably lack of
communication and knowledge of capital.
"There are enough organizations to help if people knew about them. There
are any number of opportunities for small business development in the Appalachian
PAGENO="0356"
1788
area. People are here. They are good workers. They may not have had advantages
of education but they do have abilities. Communications determine how far we go."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "That is
why we are under the banner of the CSM-to get to the people you refer to."
Harry C. Campbell, Big Sandy Coal Operators Association: "Refer to page 10
(EDP-SBIC Proposal). i\Iethods 1 and 2 are accomplished. We are down to 3
and 4. Personally I prefer discussions which favor selection of feasible pilot areas.
Kentucky is named as an initial area."
"I would like to volunteer eastern Kentucky as a primary investment area."
Jim Templeton, Director, North East Kentucky Area Development Council:
"We all agree that education in eastern Kentucky is fifty years behind the times.
Training has been conducted hut with few follow-up efforts. Regardless of what
we do we must develop jobs for the people of this area. It behooves us to develop
the area's potential. At the present time the economics of the area don't allow
for continued training because of the lack of employment opportunities.
"I'm naturally very interested in Northeastern Kentucky being used as a
demonstration for an SBIC. We have a lot going to assist in promoting and bring-
ing together those that should he involved in the development of an SBIC.
Northeast Kentucky has potential for new enterprises in particular tourism. We
ask that Northeastern Kentucky be given consideration as a place to demonstrate
an SBIC."
AFTERNOON SESSION
Gerald Bush, Special Assistant to the Secretary, U.S. Department of Labor:
"The Department of Labor at this time is interested in the hard core unemployed.
For administrative reasons the Department is trying to find agencies and com-
panies to conduct large on-the-job training programs. We are particularly inter-
ested in job training programs for light industries.
"The pow-er companies, for example, could create a training program for the
Department of Labor. They could undertake the assignment of building an em-
ployment base for the hard core. In such a program the psychological, physical
and training needs are foremost. It is our duty as a society to create needed jobs.
"We are ready to sit dow-n with this group and do serious business and do a
lot of good for the people in the area."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "This group
is attempting to become an action group and we are in a position to apply our
findings and contributions to other groups."
Gerald Bush, U.S. Department of Labor: "It is important to involve your
political contacts. You must touch base with them and keep them informed at all
stages as your program develops. The Department of Labor is interested in private
industry and in their potential role of training and employing the hard core un-
employed for it is private industry that must hire them."
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "This group repre-
sents the potential to hire the hard core unemployed. This group also has the
potential for implementing programs and the placement of people now unem-
ployed in jobs."
Gerald Bush, U.S. Department of Labor: "We will put you in the wholesale
business with all the headaches and employment problems. People are looking
for jobs. The guy with a skill is employed but the one without a skill is looking
for a job."
Koder ~ollison, Appalachian Regional Commission: "Is it up to federal agen-
cies to make industry hire these hard core unemployed ?"
Gerald Bush, U.S. Department of Labor: "No. We are trying to dramatically
show the need and demonstrate the benefits to private industry."
Jack Lloyd, Appalachian Power Company: "Hope to rehabilitate?"
Gerald Bush, U.S. Department of Labor: "We are trying to bring rural people
out of a backwoodssituation.
"What do you as employers want us to do?
"A big problem as we see it is foremen who don't know how to handle low IQ
or culturally different groups. We feel that training must be given line foremen
in the needs and problems of the hard core. The foremen must in turn be sup-
ported by top management."
Jack Lloyd, Appalachian Power Company: "Ratio wise which is worse, urban
or rural?"
Gerald Bush, U.S. Department of Labor: "It is worse in rural areas but it is
a different type of problem in urban slums. Rural people tend not to be socially
organized. Urban are better organized and tend .to know their way around."
PAGENO="0357"
1789
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Would labor be desir-
ous of having an organization that would delineate training programs directed at
this group?
"This may be a direction for another committee of the Commission. I strongly
feel that this is another segment of proper business for the Regional Development
Commission."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, `CSM: "We are
trying to crowd in too much discussion. At our next meeting we should haVe
more discussion time. A day and a half meeting would probably be preferable."
Tom Longshore, Alabama Power Company: "Could we have a committee to get
into No. 3 and 4 (EDP-SBIC Proposal) and have this as meat for the next
meeting ?"
Gerald Bush, U.S. Department of Labor: "I'll be glad to do anything to help
you with this problem. We would like to do business within 60 to 80 days as long
us jobs are guaranteed."
Stuart Faber, Appalachian Fund: "Mr. Bush, are you interested in creating
higher level or higher interest jobs?"
Gerald Bush, U.S. Department of Labor: "Yes, we are interested in both."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission:
"Training is a logical extension of our program. However, at the present time we
don't have specifics so we can't help labor and they can't help us."
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "What are the possi-
bilities of receiving funding from the Department of Labor for an interim project
such as our EDP to pull together a comprehensive wholesale training program
in the Appalachian area ?"
Gerald Bush, U.S. Department of Labor: "This may perhaps be possible."
Jim Templeton, Director, North East Kentucky Area Development Council:
"I move that the Chairman appoint a committee to concentrate on job training
and to explore job training programs. This committee should report at our next
meeting so that we can have something positive to work on."
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise De'vel~pment Project, CSM: "I second the motion
and suggest naming the committee the Manpower Training Committee of the CSM
Regional Development Commission."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, OSM: "Appointed
Jim Templeton as Chairman of the committee."
Stuart Faber, Appalachian Fund: "Is there any possible way to find out who
needs employees and who need jobs?"
Jom Templeton, Director, North East Kentucky Area Development Council:
"Research does show openings."
Jack Lloyd, Appalachian Power Company: "State employment commissions
~il1 do evaluation of job needs."
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "The next step is `to
get it to industry."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountain's Planning and Development Commission:
"OJT has to clear local employment offices. The problem is that they are not
willing to participate with outside agencies."
Gerald Bush, U.S. Department of Labor: "A way around is to assume that
they will cooperate. The employment service does recruiting."
Loyal Jones, CSM: "Would this be set up by states or could it come from the
Council of the Southern Mountains?"
Gerald Bush, U.S. Department of Labor: "The Council through this Commis-
sion-We want industry to come to us and ask if you can do this? If you can't we
will tell you
Tm Longshore, Alabama Power Company: "We. are zeroed in and would like
to see a start at No. 3 and 4 (EDP-SBIC Proposal) ."
Bob Schafer, OEO Specialist: "I am in general agreement with all that I have
heard here today."
Norman Kirkwood, SBA-Louisville, Kentucky: "I am in complete agreement,
however, we must expect many problems. We learn by doing."
Richard Reese, Kentucky State OEO: "Again with regard to the SBIC concept
that 15 areas are involved. Would it be possible to choose 2 or 3 initial areas and
begin to `bring in the local interests?
"I believe we must involve state governments and local leadership to push
this `through.
"I recommend that we consider initially the areas where we have the best
cooperation and where some groundwork has been laid. I think we should invite
the cooperation of congressional representatives."
PAGENO="0358"
1790
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Dick, we agree with
you in that three areas should be considered initially and that the criteria you
have outlined should be used."
Tom Longshore, Alabama Power Company: "I am not afraid of undertaking
this project. I am excited about it and anxious for success but we must select
the initial areas of greatest potential success."
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Tom, we also agree
with you and the three areas which we have ill mind subject of course to the will
of the Commission are:
"Southwest Virginia by reason of the newly emerging Mt. Rogers National
Recreational Area, the Mt. Rogers Regional Planning Commission composed of
five counties, eleven towns and two cities, the involvement in all of this activity
by local business interests including the Appalachian Power Company and an
existing vehicle in the Mt. Rogers Citizens Development Corporation.
"Northeast Kentucky as delineated by the state Industrial Development Com-
mission in which we have the best operating OEO community action agency in
the U.S. and good access through the construction of interstate highway 04. We
have a vehicle in the North East Kentucky Area Development Council `and More-
head State University. Preliminary economic feasibility studies have been com-
pleted by the Enterprise Development staff.
"The third initial area for `consideration is, in our opinion, North Georgia
through the North Georgia Mountains Planning `and Development Commission.
It is a well known fact that this region is well organized and well managed. I am
sure that Mr. Terriberry will have additional comment.
"Please bear in mind, gentlemen, `that this preliminary proposal is for discus-
sion and of course `subject to change by the Commission."
Harry Carloss, Kentucky Utilities C-ompany: "The ARC `has divided Appalachia
into growth areas. What about a look at that map?"
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "That is good advice
and `the decision should be based on criteria established by ARC, EDA develop-
ment districts and state industrial development guide `lines."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "ARC
research should be put to use. They should be hapl)y that they have a group to
use it.
C. W. Henderson, Jr., North East Kentucky Area Development Council: "I have
contacted three local banks. One is ready to go. This would be a great asset
to our area.
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission:
"We have now four projects in varying stages of development. We need SBIC
involvement now.
"How long w-ill it take to form an SBIC if you already have capital? We have
discussed this with banks and they wanted to come to this meeting and I want
to invite their spokesmen to the next meeting. Capital is available if we show
bow it will w-ork. We are having to hold the private sector off because we are
not ready for them. That's our situation.
Norton Norr, Vice `President, Industrial Pallet Company: "We are on the right
track and should select a pilot area. I suggest picking only one project area in
which to work and learn from.
Albert K. Mock, Enterpise Development Project, CSM: "We are asking permis-
sion to use three areas for preliminary work. We can't afford for our first en-
deavor to be a failure. We must be aware of dissipation of our efforts but we
request preliminary flexibility in the decision as to where to concentrate."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "I agree. We must
have the opportunity to balance out on the theory that one `of these areas will be
ready to go when we are ready to go."
Norton Norr, Industrial Pallet Company: "We are really researching for an
area."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "Yes. We know
three areas where we think success is certain. One of the keys of qualifying for
federal funding is getting investment money out. It makes original stock better
once you are in business. I recommend going where w-e can get the money out.
"We must work in areas where the political and economic attitude is good."
Bert Bradford, Charleston Group Companies: "I agree that selection of the
right area is important. We want one `that will show good success and u-ill be
good to show others.
"This w-ould be a basis for asking for money for a project. We need manage-
ment training to make people qualified for running this business.
PAGENO="0359"
1791
"It is my recommendation, based on knowledge of the region, that West Vir-
ginia be divided North and South."
Gerald Bush, U.S. Department of Labor: "With `regard to the SBIC Proposal,
I would recommend that case studies documenting `successful operations be
written.
"We must establish clear agreement as to what an SBI'C program is going to do.
"We must build the right `kind of `talent and know-how into `the program at the
beginning. We muat decide now who is going to make `decisions `and who is going
to direct this `program."
`C. W. Henderson, Jr., North East Kentucky Area `Development Council: "We
must bring `in qualified people who can advise."
Gerald Osborne, Enterprise Development Project, C'SM: "It appears to me that
everyone is in general agreement and I would hope for a mot'ion, with full support
of the Commission, `to `carry through with starting the projetct."
`Stuart Faber, Appalachian Fund: "We are on the right track and I would like
to see u's start. What about other departments `in Washington to fund this?
"I move that the Commission approve the planning of SBI'C application in the
three most likely areas an'd `pick the `one of th'e `three to most likely move and go
ahehd and do what is most necessary for realization of the program."
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "It has started with
ARC. We have presented the program to them and have them working for and
with us in presentation to other agencies. The next step is for us to meet with
concerned agencies. We are looking for authorization to get this thing moving."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "It is vital
that other groups be involved with us. We must secure their opinions and par-
ticipation."
Tom Longshore, Alabama Power Company: "Am I to understand that you will
make a formal application now?"
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Yes. We are asking
for a motion and the full support of the Commission in requesting a planning
grant for preliminary work ?"
Tom Longshore, Alabama `Power `Company: "Then we need a motion to:
1) move forward with funding and 2) move forward with the selection of initial
areas for investigation."
Justice Jenkins, Mid-Atlantic Region OEO: "OEO is definitely interested in
this and the fact that the Council has the ability to pull together many different
talents. This is a comprehensive war against poverty. I wish you every success."
Richard Bowman, Mi&Atlantic Region OEO: "I second that."
Loyal Jones, `OSM: "I am greatly pleased with this meeting and its implica-
tions. The Council can be the vehicle unifying our purpose in solution of many
problems. The `Council is people and I am pleased to see you talk about moving
the hard core into the economy. We can solve economic problems by extending
opportunity in the `area. This is part of total development and part of making a
sound economy.
Jim `Templeton, North East Kentucky Area Development Council: "I would
like to take this opportunity to announce the selection of members to the Man-
power Committee.
"Committee: Seth Kegan, Harry Carloss, Norton Norr, Clyde Ware, Bert Brad-
ford, and Richard Reese.
"We will organize our meetings and request the services of a topnotch man-
power specialist from the Labor Department to meet with this committee."
Stuart Faber, Appalachian Fund: °I move that the Enterprise Development
staff proceed to write up and present a request for a grant from Washington to
proceed `with the SB'IC program."
Tom Longshore, Alabama Power `Company: "Second, and the motion carried."
`Stuart Faber, Appalachian `Fund: "1 move that the Enterprise Development
staff `be directed to proceed with `the `identification of three areas for pilot SBIC's
and select one or `more areas for formation of a small `business investment com-
pany, all subject to the realization of the necessary program funding."
Tom Longshore, Alabama Power Company: "Second, and the motion `carried."
Richard Reese, Kentucky State OEO: "What are the `alternatives to non-
funding?"
Stuart Faber, Appalachian Fund: "Can `you proceed `in picking one area? I'm
thinking in `terms of setting it up privately-a small group."
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project: "We will try to get supple-
mental funding or one grant. We are going to do it. We won't come back empty
handed to the next meeting."
PAGENO="0360"
1792
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "In promoting an
SBIC, the SBA. expects the promoters to put up money to start with and do
the groundwork.
"There is a big expense requirement in getting the first SBIC started. We need
promotional funds with which to establish a working pattern.
"The SBA is normally interested in a single investment structure. To the best
of my knowledge, this is the first time they have been approached by a sound
investment group talking of a regional plan."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "What is
your pleasure on the next meeting being a day and a half?"
Koder Collison, Appalachian Regional Commission: "It is possible to schedule
the next meeting in Washington and have some of the ARC people? Consider
this."
Frank Hood. Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "We are not
ready for this."
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "I believe I agree with
you, Frank."
`Stuart Faber, Appalachian Fund: "We should expand the next meeting to in-
clude bankers and other qualified parties.
"I believe we should leave the decision to meet in Washington until we see
progress made."
Jim Templeton, North East Kentucky Area Development Council: "I would
hope thut by the next meeting you would have in sight money for the next step."
Albert K. Mock, Enterprise Development Project, *CSM: "Is it possible that we
need a committee for our SBIC programs ?"
Jim Templeton, North East Kentucky Area Development Council: "Suggested
the Executive Cabinet of the Commission and this was approved."
Frank Hood. Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "We need
to get information to our people who are going to attend these meetings at least
two weeks before meetings to study and review what will be presented.
"Place of next meeting: Charleston, West Virginia, Charleston House, (Holiday
Inn), March 5-6, 1968.
"Convene at noon on the 5th and adjourn afternoon of the 6th."
Jim Templeton, North East Kentucky Area Development Council: "I move that
we adjourn."
Stuart Faber, Appalachian Fund: "Second."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSX[: (adjourned
meeting).
Participants, Regional Development Commission, Council of the Southern
Mountains, Inc., January 9, 1968
Frank Hood, Manager Community Development Division, Georgia Power Com-
pany, Atlanta, Georgia.
Gene Mooney, Professor, University of Kentucky College of Law, Lexington,
Kentucky.
Dan Stewart, Director Community Development, Kentucky Utilities Company,
Lexington, Kentucky.
Harry Carloss, Vice President Business Development, Kentucky Utilities Com-
pany, Lexington, Kentucky.
Jack Lloyd, Director, Area Development, Appalachian Power Company, Roanoke,
Virginia.
Koder Collison, Appalachian Regional Commission, Washington, D.C.
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Director, CSM Enterprise Development Project, Berea,
Kentucky.
Seth H. Kegan, Personnel, Beth-Elkhorn Corporation, Jenkins, Kentucky.
David A. Zegeer, Division Superintendent, Beth-Elkhorn Corporation, Jenkins,
Kentucky.
Harry C. Campbell, President, Big Sandy Coal Operators Association, Pikeville,
Kentucky.
James D. Templeton, Director, North East Kentucky Area Development, Olive
Hill, Kentucky.
Tom Longshore, Assistant to the Executive Vice President, Alabama Power Com-
Dany, 600 North 18th Street, Birmingham, Alabama.
Cliff Ingram, Executive Director, LBJ & C, Monterey, Tennessee.
Justice Jenkins, Deputy District Supervisor (Kentucky), Mid-Atlantic Region
OEO, Vienna, Virginia.
PAGENO="0361"
1793
Richard Bowman, Assistant CAP Administrator, Mid-Atlantic Region OEO,
Washington, D.C.
Norman Kirkwood, Loan Officer, Small Business Administration, Louisville,
Kentucky.
C. W. Henderson, Jr., Manpower Specialist, N.E.K.A.D.C., Olive Hill, Kentucky.
Oliver Terriberry, Executive Director, Georgia Mountains Planning and Develop-
ment Commission, P. 0. Box 1294, Gainesville, Georgia 30501.
Norton Norr, Vice President, Industrial Pallet Company, 2177 S. Taylor Road..
Cleveland, Ohio 44118.
Bert Bradford, III, Area Development Manager, Charleston Group `Companies,
Columbia Gas System, Inc., P.O. Box 1275, Charleston, West Virginia 25325.
Gerald W. Bush , Special Assistant to the Secretary, U.S. Department of Labor,
Washington, D.C.
Gerald "Sonny" Osborne, Assistant Director EDP, CSM, Berea, Kentucky 40403.
Stuart Faber, CSM Board, 401 Oliver Road, Cincinnati, Ohio 45215.
Loyal Jones, Executive Director, CSM, Berea, Kentucky 40403.
Richard L. `Reese, Manpower, Kentucky State OEO, Frankfort, Kentucky.
Philip Young, President, CSM, Blacksburg, Virginia.
Robert Schafer, OEO Specialist, Berea, Kentucky 40403.
Nina Worley, Assistant to the Associate Executive Director for Development,
CSM, Berea, Kentucky 40403.
William H. Suters, Jr., Associate Executive Director for Development, Council
of the Southern Mountains, Inc., Berea, Kentucky 40403.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE MARCH 5-0, 1968, MEETING, COUNCIL OF THE SOUTHERN
MOUNTAINS REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT COMMISSION, CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA
(Sponsored by the Council of the Southern Mountainsand the CSM-EDA
Enterprise Development Project)
Chairman Frank Hood, Director of Area Development, Georgia Power Com-
pany: "Gentlemen, w-elcome to your meeting. I `think it would be good to now
have introductions. (All participants introduced themselves).
"Most of us know- each other and I hope we get. to know each other better.
This is our third meeting. Each time we take on new people and new in'terests.
This time we have the bankers. We welcome you. Everyone being a member of
this group, please feel free to openly speak. We want your full cooperation in
realizing a sound development program for `the `Appalachian region.
"At the next meeting I believe we should bring in representatives of the in-
surance industry and educational people at the university level.
"We hope to establish a total development model which we can use in the
Appalachian region and with modification in other areas.
"Gentlemen, at this time we ask Mr. Edward F. Hargan for comments on' the
EDP Staff-SBIC Proposal."
Edward F. Hargan, Investment Division, SBA, Washington, D.C.: "Mr. Hart
who outlined the Small Business Investment Act at your Abingdon meeting is
on another assignment. However, I bring you his greetings.
"I think that before commenting on the report it might be a good idea to briefly
review the legislation. The 1907 amendments have required interpretation and
operating regulations have been established; however, fundamentally there are
no changes.
"We note an item in Mountain Life & Work, February 1968 issue (published by
the CSM) which can stand some comment. The definition of venture capital is
elusive. No one has been able to offer a universally accepted definition.
"There are tw-o points on which I wish to elaborate with regard to the EDP
Report.
"First, the timing of the establishment of a SBIC. By this I mean the SBIC
is not a vehicle to attract business. Business attracts `the SBIC. As you know,
it is hard for an outsider to come into a region and immediately establish himself
iii business. We all realize, I am sure, that fruitful development must come from
within the community.
"My second comment has to d'o with the realization of base financing. This may
be achiev'ed in several ways under the new procedures. I was quite interested in
the concepts in the proposal and I agree that the ~ommunity interest is best
served when the equity is held by local people.
PAGENO="0362"
1794
"Experience shows that the return on investment capital in SBIC is relatively
slow and with the smaller SBIC's we have had less than normal success. There-
fore, the concept of attracting larger investors to the first offering and with the
possibility of second and perhaps third offering to a greater number of people at
a later date would seem feasible.
"All the procedures and construction of the small business inve~tment com-
panies must be made known to the financial leadership in each community in
order to maintain area intereSt. The chhnces of success will be much greater with
broad community participation.
"We find the suggestion of overall management for several small business in-
vestment companies to be reasonable and I don't think this part of the proposal
raises any great problems regarding the legislation.
"I am available for questions and additional discussion on an informal basis."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "Thank
you very much, Mr. Hargan."
Edward Hargan, SBA-Washington, D.C.: "I hope everyone has done his re-
quired reading in Reader's Digest."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "Mr. Hargan, do
you feel that the largerSBIC's do better?"
Edward Hargan, SBA-Washington, D.C.: "Yes, there are several types of
companies, however."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "Could you tell
us approximately how many ten million dollar companies there are ?"
Edward Hargan, SBA-Washington, D.C.: "As I recall about fifteen."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "Thank you sir. It
is my feeling that the larger the capital base the quicker the company can be-
come profitable. Also we believe that the management umbrella concept should
speed profitability.
"Mr. Hargan, could we have some comment from you regarding bank par-
ticipation?"
Edward Hargan, SBA-Washington, D.C.: "In some SBIC's bank interest is
very high; however in no instance can a bank own more than 50% of the voting
stock. An additional point that should be brought out is that no SBIC official
can be the holder of 10% or more of the stock in more than one company."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "May we
have a report on the SBTC Proposal by Albert Mock?"
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Director, CSM Enterprise Development Project, Director of
CSM: "There are many new faces in the crowd and I welcome you here. I believe
we are all conversant with the SBIC Proposal. In any event the delineation that
we have here is preliminary. The final proposal will go into greater detail in the
establishment of a working model.
"We will attempt to answer any questions regarding the proposal, however, I
will direct my comments at this point toward funding.
"May we emphasize the fact that the Appalachian Regional Commission has
been of tremendous help in behalf of this group and the project. If they had not
been we might not have gotten as far as we did.
"Pursuant to instructions of the EDA-Technical Assistance people in Wash-
ington we are in the process of making a supplemental budget request providing
for the extension of present CSM-EDP activities.
"The Technical Assistance Division of EDA does not necessarily concur that
the SBIC Proposal is the type of program that EDA should be funding.
"We will keep you informed on this. My feeling is that EDA will want to see us
prove feasibility and that they will extend this project."
Oliver Terriberry, Executive Director, Georgia Mountains Planning and Devel-
opment Commission: "What is the EDA rationale for not immediately agreeing to
fund this project?"
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "As w-e understand
it and as I have tried to say TAEDA is not necessarily convinced that SBIC im-
plementation in and of itself is a proper use of their technical assistance funds.
On the other hand taken as a part of enterprise development and considered as
an effort in establishing feasibility, the proposal and other EDP work will prol)-
ably be refunded.
"If for any reason we are not able to obtain a supplemental contract then of
course all of this work is in jeopardy. We will of course keep you fully informed
and if necessary request your active assistance in this funding effort.
"Gene, I believe you will have additional comment now."
PAGENO="0363"
1795
Eugene Mooney, Professor of law, University of Kentucky: "There are certain
things that will interest those who attended the previous meetings and our new
participants. Can small business be profitable? If so under what circumstances?
What is the measure of profitability for an SBIC?
(Mr. Mooney outlined a statistical analysis of SBIC activities and their
profitability.)
"From a national point of view `SBIC's contribute a great deal to investment
capital and the creation of jobs. SBIC's account for one fifth of SBA's total op-
erations. There is strong congressional support for SB1C's as well as from the
President. The Small Business Administration has received indication from Con-
gress that it wants SBA to get on with the job.
"Syndicated crime has become involved in financial institutions in the United
States. At the present time there is black money in a number of banks, small
financing companies and insurance companies which are starving for venture in-
vestment funds. The EDP-SBIC Proposal will insure legitimate money in legiti-
mate investments."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "Thank you
Gene for your comments.
"Al, could you give us a breakdown on criteria for selection of areas for the
first `SB'IC's?"
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, C'SM: "Julian Mosley,
our statistician, has completed preliminary analysis of two of the three areas
initially selected for SBIC's. The third is almost completed."
Koder Collison, Appalachian Regional Commission: "What are the first areas
for consideration ?"
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Ten counties in
northeast Kentucky, five to ten counties in southwest Virginia and in northeast
Tennessee and fourteen counties in the northeast Georgia Mountains Planning
Commission.
"We have had a great deal of di:scussion on how to proceed. The reason why
we started with these areas is that we have roots there. Alabama is a fourth area
under consideration for it is moving quickly."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "Mr. Hargan
we need reactions to these remarks."
Edward Hargan, SBA, Washington, D.C.: "I am nothing but optimistic. Get
as complete SBIC coverage as you can across the region. This i:S the only way
to get it done. The only thing that I can say is that if the concept doesn't go in
this atmosphere, it doesn't go at all. The potential of this region is probably one
of the best and can benefit from the SBIC's."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "What do
you think of the group we have here ?"
Edward Harg'an, SBA-Wash'ington, D.C.: "This group is the only answer. We
mi~st generate interest in the area in whi~h these companies can do their best
work for `much money and better information is available and needed."
Frank Hood, C'hairm~tn, Regional Development Commission, `OSM: "No one is
a visitor here. Evereyone is a participant. There is no room for visitors and we
only want workers in the Regional Development Commission."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission:
"Mr. Hargan would you please comment on the maximum ownership of one
investor ?"
Edward Hargan, SB'A-Washingto'n, D.C.: "One investor can own less than
10% in several companies. If `they own more th'a'n 10% in one SBI'C they are
ineligible `to participhte in other SBIC's. The `purpose of this regulation is to
avoid interlocking of other agencies."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission:
"Will this conflict with the management concept envisioned `by `the EDP staff's
proposal ?"
Edward Hargan, SBA-Washington, D.C.: "No. This is an open door and will
provide for group management. We will perhaps take a broader view of this
proposal."
Tom Longshore, Assistant to the Executive Vice President, Alabama Power
Company: "Is this type of proposal the first the S'BA has received utilizing the
concept of group management ?"
Edward Hargan, SBA-Washington, D.C.: "Yes in a large group. We do have
one group of three with joint management or cooperative management."
Porn Longshore, Alabama Power Company: "I get the impression that this pro-
posal is meeting with great favor in your office."
PAGENO="0364"
1796
Edward Hargan, SBX-Washington. D.C.: "It is provided we obtain proper
management."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "What is SBA
experience with spin-off ventures?"
* Edward Hargan. SBA-Washington. D.C.: `We have had a few experiences
and what they have done is to spin-off management or operating companies."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Are these spin-off
operdtions licensed and are licenses limited to a state or given area ?"
Edw-ard Hargan, SBA-Washington. D.C.: `You must clear w-ith each state. We
at SBA have no problems."
Frank Hood. Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "To stay on
schedule we w-ill move on to Norton Norr."
Norton Norr, Vice President, Industrial Pallet Company: "My purpose is to
~ut forth a good and better sale for private industry and my company. I think
that new SBIC's brighten the future for the SBIC market which continues to
rise. We must. realize that SBIC is a speculative market. The SBIC is to quote
Berman Goodman, `Purely for investor who can put in 1 or 2% extra capital and
wait for profit.'
"The purpose of an SBIC is to hell) new business but they also make the biggest
losses."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Norton, let me
interject that they also have the biggest gain when they are successful."
Norton Norr, Industrial Pallet Company: "True, but anything that comes to
~BIC is a risk. *SBIC could double book level every five years. We have to get
Invested for capital gains.
"We must determine our criteria for financing. Is it a credit bureau or poverty
program?
"It appears that the best way to share the special risk of SBIC's is 60% for
private industry, 20% for banking and the additional 20% for investment or
stockholders. Private industry is first interested in advancing their own product.
My company for instance has invested 840,000 in equipment because we are
interested in furthering our own product line. Iii other words my question is w-ill
private industry respond to our appeal? What most of them are concerned with
is their special product.
"The private sector is interested in social research programs and they are in-
terested in economic improvements that improve their profits and company. The
emphasis now is on business schools.
"This group could be a coordinating agency endeavoring to bring industry into
the region."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "I think you n-ill
find that there is a strong industrial finding and locating in every Appalachian
state usually in the governor's office at the state capitols. The fact of the matter
is getting a company to realize that they are in Appalachia and are on target."
Norton Norr. Industrial Pallet Company: "The Regional Development Com-
mission can coordinate. We are no competing agency."
Koder Collison. Appalachian Regional Commission: "One of the problems is
that we have been too busy going out to get new business and have let business
here go to pot.
"The ARC is endeavoring to create development districts covering several
counties and staffed by people that can give assistance to local people concerning
available government programs. These districts must know the problems of in-
dustry and help us and other agencies to act as a catalyst for industry and w-ork
with other agencies in getting programs started.
"It is our experience that industry does not always go for the highest return."
Norton Norr. Industrial Pallet Company: "Outside of their own industry ?"
Albert K. Mock. Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Depending on all
factors of what is to be gained or possibly lost."
Gerald Bush. Special Assistant to the Secretary, ITS. Department of Labor:
"The best test is to put an SBJC on the market to see if there i~ a market. This
may test what the long range incentive is to buy first issue stock or second issue
stock on an individual basis. What is the market plan?
"The second question is what the plan envisioned to get investments essential
for a profit return."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law. University of Kentucky: "The initial financ-
ing will be with banks and utilities to estahTi~h capital investment. Then investor
groups will he formed in each SBIC area. We plan to have as `hroa~ a base as
possible say 100,000 investors. Experienced businessmen are one kind of purchas-
PAGENO="0365"
1797
ing group. Incentive for investment changes-as you go to the public-people who
live there-who are not speculators. The initial investor group may get out after
the initial start and sell to private industry or socioeconomic concerns in the area.
We must appeal to many groups that differ in economic expectations."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, OSM: "By using the
mutual funds sales technique, i.e. $10 per month, we can encourage broad partici-
pation including for example employees who have been put to work because of
investments by SBIC."
Morton Norr, Industrial Pallet Company: "Let's bring out things on the table
that people are talking about. What about coal or utilities people's expressions?"
Jack Lloyd, Director, Area Development, Appalachian Power Company: "Re-
view briefly the plans for setting up the SBI'C and its capitalization."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Mr. Hargan can
answer questions better than I can about the Small Business Investment Act of
1958. Briefly, however, we envision the implementation in depressed areas of this
act as applied to the formation licensing and financing of small business invest-
ment companies.
"Basically we envision the creation of several `SBIC's in the Appalachian region
through the initial investment by existing major corporations, financial institu-
tions and enterprises directly related to the Appalachian region. After the initial
investment of a minimum of one million dollars we can call on federal funds
at a ratio of two to one thus perfecting an SBIC.
"Simultaneously with the commencement of broadly diversed investments in
small businesses in the operating area each SBIC will commence a second offer-
ing to the general public utilizing the $10 per month scheme.
"~\TC have an unprecedented opportunity to once and for all involve a maximum
number of non-owners, non-participators in the direct ownership of equity in
their area at the lowest possible cost to them. This activity if realized is in ac-
cord with basic concepts of our capitalist, democratic society."
Jack Lloyd, Appalachian Power Company: "How many $100 investors do you
believe we could get?"
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, C'SM: "We would an-
ticipate more $10 a month investors."
Jack Lloyd, Appalachian Power Company: "Are you dreaming-this is not a
reality ?"
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, OSM (Mock outlined
private investment programs experienced in the development of Iron Mountain
Stoneware and other Johnson County, Tennessee projects).
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "Al's experience is
not unique. People will invest. People want to invest. In reality the investment
money is there."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "If we work, prop-
erly design, pursue it and let people know what we are doing, it will work. The
inducements are inherent in the legislation. Additionally we are providing the
additionat inducement of proven feasibility through opportunities after the first
offering."
Norton Norr, Industrial Pallet Company: "We must build what each locality
has so that they can use the SBIC. We must encourage the attraction of new in~
dustries at the same time as we develop SBIC's."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "The big money
must come first or we will never get started. Changes are being made and the first
thing that must be done is all the technical work involved in setting up an SBIC."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "Gentlemen,
this is just one program we are trying to develop. This is all part of a total. If
we are going into a total development program the SBIC is just a part of the total.
Once we set up the program we must coordinate them with others so we will
have few problems. Once we come up with a `total development program we won't
have any problems."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission:
"In our experience of upgrading an area, a community organization must be
fostered first. It looks to me like the SBIC approach has a guaranteed return-
incentive.
"The nation is changing from massive employer to service and certain benefits
are locked into a community. A successful business requires massive investment.
The SBIC should be considered because business is there-service industry or
competitive industry. These industries enhance all participants involved."
PAGENO="0366"
1798
W. K. Lampson. Manager of Area Development. New York State Electric and
Gas Corporation: `Getting your money is a problem but getting it to work is
success."
Oliver Terriberry. Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission:
"How long a chance will a person take with thIs program? Fifty-fifty chance of
succeeding?"
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project CSM: "As we visualize it
the SBIC has at one end the strength of an overall management group and at
the other continuing local action; the local action being composed of bankers,
community leadership and legal advisers to direct the investment in a community.
"The SBIC will make available new lending opportunities for banks and other
conventional financial institutions."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law-, University of Kentucky: "To make appli-
cation for an SBIC we need a commitment from investors."
Edward Hargan, SBA-Washington, D.C.: "The money must be on the line."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law-, University of Kentucky: "You have to have
money in the bank before you go to Washington for the initial license."
Jack Lloyd, Appalachian Power Company: "It's a tough task to sell."
Eugene Moonew-, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "There is a good
potential in the ten county area in northeastern Kentucky."
Jack Lloyd, Appalachian Pow-er Company: "Who would be your largest con-
tributor?"
Albert K. Mock. Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Well, w-e might
consider several million dollars from American Electric Pow-er Company."
[Laughter.]
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "Today we
have had a limited discussion on SBIC. I'd like to see more of you participate in
this discussion so that we can see how you feel. Unless we get your reaction we
are not getting the feeling of the group."
John Lough. Assistant to the President, Consolidated Ga~ Supply Corporation:
"I don't see a need for SBIC in our area. It is like dog food-it has all the ingre-
dients but the dogs won't eat it."
Harry Campbell, President, Big Sandy Coal Operators Association: "Why the
selection of northeactern Kentucky as the first area? Is this area chosen on a
basis of profit or poverty need?"
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "We had to select
a place to study. Another consideration is that Morehead State University is lo-
cated in the area and might be the headquarters for the SBIC. Also the develop-
ment of 1-64 will open investment opportunities."
Harry Campbell, Big Sandy Coal Operators Association: "What is the unem-
ployment need ?"
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "We are still
dealing w-ith three~ areas. One area is southwest Virginia where we have a good
relationship with community leaders and town councils in a five county area and
the state is willing to put some money into that area. Study has also been made
in north Georgia in Mr. Terriberry's area. I can't give the group an answer to
what area at this time has the greatest potential for success."
J. C. Millin, Manager of Area Development, Monongahela Power Company:
"You have determined the need of SBIC in these areas."
Edw-ard Hargan, SBA-Washington, D.C.: "What type of business is involved?"
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "We are talking
about the linkage of programs. In all steps of the operation we must get local
people involved if we are to find w-orking capital. We are talking about many
facilities. Private development, cosy money that makes it w-ork. Only local people
have the potential of developing any form of coordinating activity."
George Armstrong, Associate Director, East Kentucky Resource Development
Project: "Al, you talk about three areas in which to organize SBIC. Would the
management team be available?"
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Yes-the overall
management umbrella would be constructed simultaneously w-ith the realization
of functioning SBIC's or perhaps sooner in order to create SBIC's."
George Armstrong, East Kentucky Resource Development Project: "Will the
SBIC impose certain management criteria on companies utilizing SBIC funds ?"
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSB: "The SBIC will
have an equity interest in the company. It is w-ithin this range of equity owner-
ship that it can exercise action concerning administrative matters."
PAGENO="0367"
1799
George Armstrong, East Kentucky Resource Development Project: "Won't
prospective users be high risk?"
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSB: "Yes, but at differ-
ent levels of risk. That is the beauty of the thing. Keep in mind the fact that
some of the SBIC funds will be loaned out thereby generating limited but imme-
diate income to the SBIC. The balance of funds, something on the order of 65%,
will be invested in the equities of a broad number of diversity of enterprises.
"Once a diverse investment portfolio has been intelligently created the potential
for major losses will have been drastically reduced. Some enterprises in which
the SBIC is invested may fail; however, it is impossible to visualize total failure
or even impairment of an SBIC since through proper management one can assume
that most investments will be successful."
George Armstrong, East Kentucy Resource Development Project: "In eastern
Kentucky one of the biggest problems we face is the man who uses hip-pocket
bookkeeping."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "We have never
been able to put our money where our mouth is. Nobody will accept consultant
management recommendations unless there is money to back them up.
"We are talking about total development and the SBIC is the money part of
it. All of us here are involved in a segment of total development."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "I think we should
talk some about industrial development."
W. K. Lampson, New York State Electric and Gas Corporation: "Also training
and job development."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "Most ideal com-
munities have restricted territory and limited resources. The core management
concept of the SBIC does not move its money in this pattern. We are trying to
create multiple `turf'."
W. K. Lampson, New York State Electric and Gas Corporation: "I'm sold
on it."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "We must work
arm in arm with other development programs."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "Closeness will
tend to cut down organizational or development costs. Economic input must be
committed to provide a capital base for affiliated businesses. We must create a
residue so that somnething will be left in the area. We hope to pick areas for the
SBIC's where there is a certain amount of economic input to channel into a
broad range of activities."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "We need funds at
this point. We are talking about people owning the SBIC's.
"We are also talking about sophisticated management teams and the sharing
of management specialist from one area to another.
Jack Lloyd, Appalachian Power Company: "What we are talking about is
community development. Can SBIC provide enough money for this total
development?"
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Yes, in the non-
conventional sense if structured properly. The total effort of community action, I
think, will provide some of the necessary services. We will make mistakes but
don't overlook the fact that SBIC's will be supplying equity risk ca~i'tal in a non-
secured position thereby supporting and expanding conventional financing
activities."
Eugene Mooney, Professor ~f Law, University of Kentucky: "Management is
the basic vital element of any business. There seems to be no question about a
management corporation serving the various SBI'C"s. We `hope to have manage-
ment which knows how to contact experts. We would hope not to spread ourselves
so thin that we would not have capital to locate expert managerial help."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, OSM: "Another aspect is
the management requirement of being able to raise the necessary capital. We can
do it if we sell a total approach."
Gerald Bush, U.S. Department of Labor: "How do you do it for the first three?"
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "This is part of the
bases for our request for an extension of the CSM-Enterprise Development
Project."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "It may be we
can't offer a wide range of management expertise at first but that will come
later."
PAGENO="0368"
1800
Gerald Bush, U.S. Department of Labor: "In other words set up opportunities
for success."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "Opportunity de-
velopment is the biggest single cost. However if we do it once or twice we can do
it fifteen times. We must develop a feasible concept and create a pattern from
which to learn. Each succeeding SBIC comes easier."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "We must get one
winner and establish a successful model which with minor modification can be
applied over and over again many areas of the country."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "A point to remem-
ber-the smaller the SBIC the longer to get to the turn around point-that is to
say profit."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Wherein lies
the million dollar figure so often referred to."
George Armstrong, East Kentucky Resource, Development Project: "But you
better have a winner in this first one."
Seth Kegan, Personnel, Beth-Elkhorn Corporation: "Or you will be out of
business."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "Yes.
"The initial promotion work and necessary legal work must be done.
"Think of the impact this is going to have upon government.
"I will provide EDP and the Commission with proposals for legal arrange-
ments and financial arrangements along with cost and management plans,
dividend rates and details. After the work of this one is done the cost of creating
the next one will be cheaper."
Norton Norr, Industrial Pallet Company: "What would the SBA interest rate
to business be? A prime rate?"
Edward Hargan, SBA-Washington, D.C.: "The SBA has set a maximum of
15%; however the interest rate is also liimted by state statute."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "What do the
banks say?"
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "Could we
get a response?"
Sam Carpenter, Vice President, Bank of Wedowee: "Would we go out for big
industry or small ?"
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Small but the
answer lies in each situation w-e encounter."
Tom Longshore, Alabama Power Company: "We are trying to help in the
creation of new business and stimulate the ones already here. I place particular
emphasis on the strengtening of existing business."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Do the bankers
feel that this concept will contribute to the capital flow in your region? Will this
proposal help the banking industry?"
Sam Carpenter, Bank of Wedowee: "The SBIC will increase the capital flow
in our area and will help any industry; however SBIC's should be set up on an
individual basis conforming w-ith the needs of tlìe region in which they will
operate."
Torn Longshore, Alabama Power Company: "Local boys can cut out red tape.
"Where's the money coming from-I don't know. Who is going to get behind
the program.
"I know we speak generally of utilities and I think we are fooling ourselves if
we say that they are not conservative.
"You get the model for the SBIC developed. This group will take you to the
top man in their company.
"The utility companies are good citizens. I think you will get a sympathetic
ear when you talk to top management. It is not easy to crack one-we must get on
with it."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "We want to look
into other avenues of support for the initial SBIC. We will be down to see you
if you need us. It's your commission."
Ray McRae, President, First National Bank, Gainesville, Georgia: "Having
missed the first several meetings and only sitting in three hours and fifteen
minutes-I came to get away from the bank to be honest-I want to indicate
how favorably impressed I am by the caliber of those attending and represented.
Al and Gene are the best team since Everett Dirksen and Charlie Halleck.
"A clear need is demonstrated and the solution is to be found with the SBIC.
I think what is most impressive is that the Council and enterprises of the private
PAGENO="0369"
ISO'
sector are reconciled to the point that we can get private funds through private
management.
"I can't think of a better opportunity. All of us at this time are looking at
problems closer than we ever have before. I commend and congratulate you."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "You are
part of the team and it takes all for total development. In this program I think we
have to work with all agencies of federal government.
"In discussing the program with various agencies in Washington, I have not
found one that wasn't enthused or vitally interested. We have proof that if we
work together we can rely on benefits.
"It is now late in the day. I wish `to sincerely thank you for your interest and
participation. If there are no objections, I will now adjourn the meeting until
9:30 a.m. tomorrow morning.
"Due to the weather we will try to end at 1 :00 p.m. At this time on the man-
power section we have Mr. Jim Templeton. Jim, we would like to hear from you
at this time."
`Jim Templeton, Director, Northeast Area Development Council-Kentucky:
"We all knOw that manpower retraining is several years behind the times. We
have done some retraining but not enough of it. As I say, we are about 10 to 12
years behind. I don't believe the total responsibility is the "Great White Father's".
Part of the responsibility lies within industry and there must be programs of
training that will elevate and retrain `workers.
"Within Appalachia we have a little different situation which `holds little em-
phasis on manpower and `training and to my sorrow much more is `focused on
urban America. We are `rural in Appalachia and I think the emphasis is being
put on urban America so much that if we in rural America are not jo'ined
together-private sector and government--we will continue to lag `behind and get
nothing done. I think private `industry can get it done in rural America.
"The Manpower Committee met last week and talked not about specifics in
actual training but we talked about the utilities-gas and electric companies
in Appalachia. We don't know what `they are looking for-what are their needs
for today-five years from now-projected needs-or know the future needs of
enterprise and development.
"This committee `tentatively decided to lay at your doorstep for further discus-
sion and probable direction the route we must take. We feel that all of you
in this group representing responsible companies should express your needs not
just for today but in what ca'tegories will `be your company's greatest nee'ds
and your company's plans for development in the next few years. This includes
the needs of manpower and the type of qualification expected for workers in
the future.
"Ask through your personnel offices for a survey of future expansion and
growth needs. We must find the kind of people and training required. We must
ask our personnel departments these questions and ask for their advice."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "Sonny, can
we have your comments?"
Gerald Osborne, Assistant Director, Enterprise Development Project, CSM:
"I think that Jim's comments fall in line with what we talked about yesterday.
Basically we must try to simplify our method of finding out the types of jobs
and requirements of those jobs from private industry.
"We must find out the feeling of private industry concerning employment needs
and training requirements and training programs."
Jim Templeton, Northeast Area Development Council, Kentucky: "I'd like your
reaction to doing a survey. Do you think this is a need ?"
Gerald Osborne, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "The committee talked
about doing a survey; however we think we can find out basic needs from this
group."
Tom Longshore, Alabama Power Company: "Government has made surveys in
the area so far as manpower availability."
Gerald Osborne, Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "Some government
surveys have been made but I don't have a great deal of faith in some."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission:
"A good example of `what industry can d'o l's the Bell System which has' a training
program for potential dropouts."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, C:SM: "Yes, but
they are just doing it for their industry."
`Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission:
"The high `school graduate is a manpower `resource and is more ready for use in
local ind'ustry. What kind `of survey must we conduct to find out `their need?"
27-754-69-pt. 3-24
PAGENO="0370"
1802
Ray McRae, First National Bank, Gainesville, Georgia: "A volunteer type sur-
vey or computer survey?"
Norton Norr, Industrial Pallet Company: "Many surveys talk about unem-
ploymeut but no one has ever gone to a company and asked about jobs available."
Jim Templeton, Northeast Area Development Council, Kentucky: "Have any of
the corporations here ever participated in government surveys?"
Norton Norr, Industrial Pallet Company: "State surveys estimate certain things
but I question their accuracy."
Ray McR.ae, First National Bank, Gainesville, Georgia: "What type of question-
naire should go to everybody-not on a regional basis but on a local basis?"
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, OSM: "The Re-
gional Development Commission is not too large and not too small a group. We
have some twenty-seven private companies participating. Each of these com-
panies is in need of people to be trained for specific activities.
`Mr. Bush, would the Labor Department support a program to find out what
employment needs are in Appalachia ?"
Tom Lomigshore, Alabama Power Company: "Send me the questionnaire and I
will get the personnel department to fill it out. We are beginning to talk about
regional development activities. We must begin to define employment opportuni-
ties and pursue them.
"We have persons in our company that know the score and we must develop a
sound relationship with them."
Jim Templeton, Northeast Area Development Council-Kentucky: "Everyone
is guessing about vocational education and what w-e are training people for. Do
we know what needs are? Are we up-grading training to meet the needs of the
next five years? Once we see a study about concentrated job needs and areas
than we see areas where people `are needed. We must determine how much pre-
training is needed. This is where the government comes in. We also should not
be put in a position of duplicating vocational education. This group can bring
us up-to-date as to just what manpow-er needs are."
Ray McRae, First National Bank-Gainesville, Georgia: "Does every state
have vocational education ?"
Jim Templeton, Northeast Area Development `Council-Kentucky: "Yes."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "I think we
are on the right track when w-e talk about job opportunities in private industry-
coal, timber, utility. Don't you think we should start on these three (power, coal,
timber) with your survey and make your study ?"
John Lough, Consolidated Gas Supply Corporation: "Just what is expected
from a group like this ?"
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "The Re-
gional Development Commission is a resource-a resource of people who have
the ability and potential to train people properly and to find some answers. What
affects Appalachia affects all of us as investors of private industry. We must pull
together more industries so that more people can be retained."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission:
"Prospective employee pro-conditioning is a failing on `the part of public educa-
tion. The orientation of the public is that here are jobs and you must meet these
requirements. Let's invite superintendents of public schools and your employment
officers and let them swap ideas as to what the needs are."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "I think
we need to get the personnel directors with Jim's committee."
Ray McRae. First National Bank, Gainesville, Georgia: "Are we trying to
satisfy industry's need or the employed's? Why does a group of this size govern
a region of this size?
"Is the commission trying to do something that is already being done?"
Jim Templeton. Northeast Area Development Council, Kentucky: "It's not
being done.
Bert Bradford, Area Development Manager, Columbia Gas System, Inc.: "The
Regional Development Commission is trying to do it."
Jim Templeton. Northeast Area Development Council, Kentucky: "We are
talking about going to the grassroots."
Norton Norr, Industrial Pallet Company: "We `are going to local areas and
not trying to do the work of others. No one is putting the loose ends together. We
are pulling together and trying to see what training can be done. This group
is sort of a pilot project. Certain doorways are open to this group that are not
open to any others. This is a worthwhile project that can stand discussion."
PAGENO="0371"
1803
Gerald Bush, U.S. Department of Labor: "Manpower unrelated to needs is
impure. There are artificial employment barriers. Most employment criteria was
established during the depression to keep people out. New training must screen
people in but employment requirements remain the same. The Regional Develop-
ment Commission could get industry to take a look at unrealistic employment
barriers. In fact the lowering of unrealistic employment barriers might have the
snme effect as all the work of the Department of Labor put together.
"I give you encouragement to start with the power companies. The Department
of Labor is interested in doing a comprehensive job in Appalachia. I personally
prefer a comprehensive program. Do a small pilot program and then come back
with a full blown manpower training program. It has to be done.
"Restrict your work to industry and people's need. Identify the industry with
the X number of job openings, Consolidate manpower needs and it makes talking
with the government easier."
Ray McRae, First National Bank, Gainesville, Georgia: "The most effective
way to train is within industry."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "Industry must do
its own training."
Jim Templeton, Northeast Area Development Council, Kentucky: "Pursue
Frank's suggestion of experimenting with three industries on this survey-maybe
take one at a time and get the personnel director and plans together at one
sitting and have some type of questionnaire and explain what we are trying
to find out."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission:
"Let personnel directors evolve questions."
Jim Templeton, Northeast Area Development Council-Kentucky: "There are
some questions we need the answers to and we can let industry add additional
questions."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, OSM: "This proposal
needs walk around money. Where does it come from ?"
Norton Norr, Industrial Pallet Company: "Walking money-how can we avoid
it-let us go and then come back to this commission with our finds."
Jim Templeton, Northeast Area Development `Council-Kentucky: "Would
this work better on an attempt to get personnel men together ?"
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development `Commission, CSM: "All right,
gentlemen. It gives me great pleasure to give you Mr. John Whisman of the Ap-
palachian Regional Commission."
John Whisman, State's Regional Representative, Appalachian Regional Com-
mission: "I'm very much interested in what you are doing here. I hope that ARC
has been of help to you in the past and hope it will be in the future.
"The first Appalachian program was set up in the mid fifties. The Appalachian
development program is the keystone to Appalachian development. The ARC is a
partnership of state and federal governments in this region. By the principle of
working together we have found ways of breaking barriers. This is the purpose
of the ARC and this meeting. The ARC is a tie between the many local, state and
federal programs."
(Discussion of the history and purposes of the Appalachian Regional
Commission)
"Your work program interests me. To `be more specific the SBIC is `designed to
be a solution to problems. The increase of equity and capital needs must come
from private enterprise. The s'taff hired by the private sector will give it a pri-
vate review. Things are changing-private enterprise is getting into' public
enterprise. Decisions are made by those living and making a living in the private
marketplace.
"We need the Council of the Southern Mountains'. You are really concerned
with people and you know this Appalachian region.
"I'll take you'r product if you fellows organ'ize. This will not he a private busi-
ness to make a profit but a public business to render a public service. I think
the SB'IC proposal can `be realized. We are very interested in this. We want to
work with you as you put this together."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "John, we
appreciate your coming. I would like to get this straigh't and we tell this to all
other groups. You are not an observer but part of the action. It takes all of us
together to put this thing on the road."
Gerald Bush, U.S. Department of Labor: "The public services which private
industry h'as `built takes public money and lets `private people spend it and lets
PAGENO="0372"
1S04
it serve the people. Start in the direction of starting new institutions that will
go."
Edward Hargan, SBA-Washington. D.C.: `1 am very interested in the SBIC. I
think it has many possibilities but it will take some flexibility. I believe the man-
agement group is necessary and should be established at the same time as the
SBJC's."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: `One pur-
pose of this group is to try and work as a team. Lnless we have participation of
all agencies of government. I don't think we have a ghost of a chance of obtaining
goals we are trying to obtain."
George Armstrong, East Kentucky Resource Development Project: "John. you
fund these development districts. I'm wondering if it is possible that as these
technical assistance grants are made that we might evolve SBIC and training
plans with them."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "You are 100%
right. The ARC is a clearing house."
John Whisman, Appalachian Regional Commission: "The philosophy of the
ARC is that state government is easy for you to get to. The real problem is that
neither the state nor federal government has done w-hat you are doing-you have
invented a new- thing. Get the state to develop the development districts and we
w-ill incorporate your program in them and get it to the fellows at the state
capitol."
George Armstrong, East Kentucky Resource Development Project: "We have
never been able to stimulate local capital. One of the first priorities is to stimulate
investment capital in the area. We have to do this. OEO human development is
one thing but this does not stimulate capital. The district director of the develop-
ment district should be concerned with stimulating investment capital."
John Whisman. Appalachian Regional Commission: "He won't be able to do it
unless you guys invent wheels he can ride on."
Jim Templeton, Northeast Area Development Council-Kentucky: "The Regional
Development Commission was organized and set up by private enterprise in
Appalachia and now we are drifting toward an agency group. In this last dis-
cussion few private enterprise people have spoken. Are w-e losing this group to the
agency people and leaving business behind?"
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "You
weren't here yesterday but I appreciate your remarks as w-e are showing that all
have to participate. It has to be total participation. Let's get a reaction."
Tom Longshore, Alabama Power Company: "We could drift in the wrong direc-
tion. Touch base with politics. We must have an SBIC model before expanding
the group."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "I think
we are on a new track for working programs. Say what we want about govern-
ment but we are not going too far without their support.
"in the past many of us said that this was their program and now we are tak-
ing interest. Our piirp~se is to try to wed their activities and abilities and join
hands in carrying out these programs. Private enterprise can't set up programs
on the scale you have. Activity limited to our operations but now we expand it to
all to get something done."
Jim Templeton~ Northeast Area Development Council-Kentucky: "If all ban
together on a given problem and reach a solution, no government can say no."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission:
"As an agency director I feel that we are responsible to a request instead of
initiator but we are so structured that our tendency is to be the initiator and
private sector the aggressor."
Seth Kegan, Beth-Elkhorn Corporation: "I appreciate the opportunity to be a
part of this organization and have been under the impression that we are setting
up a vehicle that we can launch activities in small areas that will be able to
dig into the economic problems that we are facing. A need and problem-working
through industry and industry is becoming concerned with social obligations and
because of that certain industries are represented here today.
"Industry on its own and by itself can't accomplish what we hope to accom-
plish. If there is not a need for government w-e are wasting money. All agencies
have to come together somewhere to get the job done. Industry is not going to
be involved in this type of set up unless it is for free enterprise. I feel that
through this organization functioning we seal or unite these groups and get the
PAGENO="0373"
1805
job done. I realize the picture of this organization and its purpose and I think
industry is conservative but industry doesn't bang into something quick but
lakes long looks and when it sees potential you have backers."
Bob Schaffer, OEO Specialist, Berea,~ Kentucky: "So far I see two kinds of
ideas. One is to make a profit and the other is a charity. Has the group jelled
to the point where it has defined where it is going?"
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "There is no ques-
tion but that the SBIC is for profit. I'm not interested in it if it is not for profit.
I don't mean however that it is not also accomplishing something else. It must
carry its own freight and turn a profit for its investors."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, OSM: "Some believe in
it and are going to invest in it."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "Development
corporations are not designed like an SBIC in which economic development in
Appalachia needs to operate."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "All this looking
means nothing until someone puts money in it. That gives it a new lease on life."
Bob Schaffer, OEO Specialist: "What is to prevent the SBIC becoming more
conservative than other businesses ?"
Tom Longshore, Alabama Power Company: "Social concerns are business con-
cerns. Involvement in social problems is realism."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "SBA won't give
matching funds without management. This management will come from banks
and other businesses by using their financial managers and investment managers."
Prank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "Our first
meeting thought was deep, second meeting it was deeper and deeper this time.
Our group-all here together-is doing a job to set `the SBIC up. We can only
accomplish this by going through our present study process."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "We are not going
to use the scatter approach. The SBIC is going to be limited to small business
under the core umbrella concept."
John Whisman, Appalachian Regional Commission: "We can give special con-
sideration to SBIC areas."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law-. University of Kentucky: "How we use the
SBIC approach is ieft up to us and investment in the Appalachian region."
Ray McRae, First National Bank. Gainesville, Georgia: "I think we are on the
right track. I believe by January of next year the technical work of the SBIC
should be completed and that we should have commitments from Appalachian
industries to put the first SBIC into operation. However, we will get more banks
and commerce to participate in the Regional Development Commission."
`Sam Carpenter, Bank of Wedowee, Alabama: "You have to encompass more
people to get a cross section of thinking. I'm impressed with the start and think
SUCCESS is feasible."
W. Ic. Lampson, New York State Electric and Gas Corporation: "It appears
to me that we are at the point of taking definite action. I realize the importance
of sound planning. I know there is a need for the SBTC. Would it be possible to
get the show on the road? Tb4s program has so much merit we need to get
started."
Bob Martin, Manager, Allen Branch, The Bank of Josephine, Kentucky: "I
think the SBIC would give us much more variety in industry. The main thing
is development and to be able to enjoy the improvements in living conditions
which profits will give us."
Sam Carpenter, Bank of Wedowee, Alabama: "It will take a while to sell the
merits of this program to the public. More banks and industries must be
brought in." -
Jim Templeton, Northeast Area Development Council, Kentucky: "More should
be involved. I :suggest that we hold our next meeting in an area for a possible
SBIC and invite local bankers."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "We feel that we
should continue to deal with three areas and fill in more detail and be in a
position at the next meeting to present an analysis of the three areas along with
other new input to be followed up by interviews in the local areas of the local
financial establishments and to get their ideas as to wrhat investment oportunities
are available and have it as part of the material on the three areas of discussion
at our next meeting."
PAGENO="0374"
1806
"Each of you in your areas can get the following information:
1) Get information pertaining to the feasibility of an SBIC in your area arid
2) Get information on a one to one basis to other industries and financial
institutions and get them to our next meeting."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission:
"The three areas identified might turn out to be areas we don't want. We must
come back and determine which areas are the best for the SBIC."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Enterprise Development Project, CSM: "I believe we
should have four or five from each proposed area at our next Regional Devel-
opment Commission meeting."
Jack Lloyd, Appalachian Power Company: "I move that we meet in Atlanta.
Jim Templeton, Northeast Area Development Council-Kentucky: "Second."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "The next
meeting will be in Atlanta, May 13-14."
Jim Templeton, Northea~t Area Development Council-Kentucky: "Personnel
directors of the utilities must be gotten together to find manpower needs."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commis-
sion: "I so move."
Norton Norr, Industrial Pallet Company: "Second."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Regional Development Commission, CSM: "Meeting
adjourned."
Regional Development Commission Meeting-May 13-14, 1968. Albert Pick
Motel, 1152 Spring Street, N.W.. Atlanta. Georgia 30309. Phone-404--813-4361.
PARTICIPANTS, REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT Co~1MIssIox, COUNCIL OF THE SOUTHERN
MOUNTAINS, INC., MARCH 5-6, 1968, CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA~
Oliver Terriberry, Executive Director, Georgia Mountains Planning and Devel-
opment Commission, P.O. Box 1986, Gainesville, Georgia 30303.
Ray McRae, President, First National Bank, Gainesville, Georgia 30303.
Gerald W. Bush, Special Assistant to the Secretary, Department of Labor,
Washington, D.C.
Eugene Mooney, Iniversity of Kentucky, College of Law, Lexington, Kentucky
40506.
Seth H. Kegan, Personnel, Beth-Elkhorn Corporation, Jenkins, Kentucky.
Harry C. Campbell, President, Big Sandy Coal Operators Association, Pike-
ville, Kentucky.
Chester W. Smith, C and I Representative, Kentucky Power Company, Pike-
yule, Kentucky 41501.
Thomas Longshore, Assistant to the Executive Vice President, Alabama Power
Company, 600 North 18th Street, Room 1102, Birmingham, Alabama 35203.
Sam W. Carpenter, Vice President, Bank of Wedowee, Wedowee, Alabama
36278.
Koder II. Collison, State's Office, Appalachian Regional Commission, Wash-
ington, D.C.
Ed L. Wynn, President, First National Bank, Ashland, Alabama.
Norton Norr, Vice President, Industrial Pallet Company, 2177 5 Taylor Road,
Cleveland, Ohio 44118.
E. 0. Zimmerman, Loan Officer, Small Business Administration, Lowndes Bank
Building, Third Floor, Clarksburg, West Virginia 26301.
Jack Lloyd, Director Area Development, Appalachian Power Company, P.O.
Box 2091, Roanoke, Virginia 24009.
Saul Schlesinger, Manpower Specialist, Council of the Southern Mountains,
GPO Box 2307, Berea, Kentucky 40403.
Tom Mustard, Talent Bank, Council of the Southern Mountains, GPO Box
2307, Berea, Kentucky 40403.
Bob Martin, Manager, Allen Branch, The Bank of Josephine, Allen, Kentucky.
Donna Roop, Secretary, Council of the Southern Mountains, Berea, Kentucky
40403.
George Armstrong, Eastern Kentucky Resource Development Project, Tjniver-
slAy of Kentucky, Industrial Development Specialist, Quicksand, Kenftcky 41363.
Edward F. Hargan. Small Business Administration, 811 Vermont Avenue, N.E.,
Washington, D.C. 20416.
W. K. Lampson, Manager Area Development. New York State Electric and
Gas Corporation, Binghamton, New York.
Dan Stewart, Director Gommunity Development, Kentucky Utilities Company,
120 South Limestone, Lexington, Kentucky 40507.
PAGENO="0375"
1807
Bert Bradford, III, Area Development Manager, Columbia Gas System, Inc.,
P.O. Box 1273, Charleston, West Virginia 25325.
Dick Sutherland, Area Development Representative, West Virginia Department
of Commerce, Charle'ston, West Virginia.
J. C. Millin, Manager, Area Development, Monongahela Power Company, Fair-
mont, West Virginia.
Richard L. Reese, Manpower Specialist, Kentucky State OEO, 213 St. Clair
Street, Frankfort, Kentucky, 40601.
Frank Hood, Director, Community Development Division, Georgia Power Com-
pany, P.O. Box 4545, Atlanta, Georgia 30302.
John Whisman, State's Representative, Appalachian Regional Commission,
Washington, D.C.
C. W. Henderson, Jr., Manpower Specialist, Northeast Kentucky Area Develop-
ment Council, Olive Hill, Kentucky 41164.
Jim Templeton, Director, Northeast Area Development Council, P.O. Box U,
Olive Hill, Kentucky 41164.
Robert W. Shaffer, OEO Special Technical Assistant, Route 2, Berea, Kentucky
40403.
Thomas Gee, Director, Center for Economic Opportunity, Ohio University,
Athens, Ohio 45701.
Vic Hess, Administrative Assistant, Center for Economic Opportunity, Ohio
University, Athens, Ohio 45701.
John D. Lough, Assistant to the President, Consolidated Gas Supply Corpora-
tion, Clarksburg, West Virginia.
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Director, Enterprise Development Project, Council of the
Southern Mountains, CPO Box 2307, Berea, Kentucky 40403.
Gerald Osborne, Assistant Director, Enterprise Development Project, Council
of the Southern 1~Iountains, GPO Box 2307, Berea, Kentucky 40403.
William H. Suters, Jr., Associate Executive Director for Development, Council
of the Southern Mountains, CPO Box 2307, Berea, Kentucky 40403.
Nina Worley, Assistant to the Associate Executive Director for Development,
Council of the Southern Mountains, Berea, Kentucky 40403.
PROCEDINGS OF THE MAY 13-14, 1968, MEETING, COUNCIL OF THE SOUTHERN
MouNTAINs REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT CoMMIssIoN, ATLANTA, GEORGIA
SPONSORED BY THE COUNCIL OF THE SOUTHERN MOUNTAINS AND THE CSM-EDA
ENTERPRISE DEVELOPMENT PROJECT
Frank Hood, Chairman, Director of Area Development, Georgia Power Com-
pany, CSM Director: "Welcome to the fourth Regional Development Commission
meeting. At this time I would like to call to Al Mock to give us a review on EDP
programs and funding and Mr. Eugene Mooney to give us another review on
organization that we feel will probably be advantageous to get this program
underway."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Director, EDP~~CSM, OSM Director: "You have the in-
formation from all the previous meetings. As Frank said, this is our fourth meet-
ing tending to put public and private organizations together for total develop-
ment for this specific area. We are involved in this meeting tending to create
models to use in other areas. EDP, specifically through the Council of the South-
ern 1~Iountains, proposes to create a new capital base for investment in the Ap-
palachian region and other underdeveloped areas."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky, CSM Director: "We
have been told that some of the language of the SBI ACT of 1958 should be de-
leted from our conversations. What we are thinking of is the formation of a new
capital base; call it what you will . . . Mock explained the EDP Proposal for
adoption of the Small Business Investment Act in underdeveloped areas. . . Addi-
tionally Mock proposes that the Regional Development Commission could be a
wholesale agent for job training.
What we now propose is that we move forward in an action program to estab-
lish a non-profit, non-stock corporation-Enterprise Development, Inc. It should
be incorporated in the state of Kentucky and have no territorial limits. It will
function through a board and staff made up of 25 to 30 members-one half from
the Regional Development Commission and the other half from representatives
of each functioning SBIC as it is established~ EDI when established would func-
tion through its board as an advisory and counseling entity for the proposed
SBIC's blanketing the Appalachian region."
PAGENO="0376"
1808
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "EDT would be a
consulting agency. It would not be a holding company for SBIC's. It would not
own any part of an SBIC. It would be a consulting service and clearing house for
the capital base we are talking about.
`It would perform economic planning and financial analyses as required and
perform trouble shooting services while forming a central coordinating agency to
function as a $150 million capital entity.
"EDT does not now have $150 million so its first function is to serve as a pro-
moter of new- capital corporations putting together investment groups in specific
`economic development areas'.
"EDT will not take stock from SBIC's it organizes. It will be a coordinating
agency and vehicle through which SBTC's are created and would continue to
function on a long range basis. T think now is the time to set up EDT and begin to
put together concrete investment groups in specific areas."
E. V. Price. Director, C.O.E.D.D., Shawnee, Oklahoma: "What is the estimated
cost of putting together an SBIC?"
Albert K. Mock, Jr., CSM-EDP: "We are requesting funding in the amount of
$143,000 from the Technical Assistance Division-EDA for a one year implementa-
tion program. We believe that this activity could result in three SBIC's in various
stages of formation. What is the first step in forming an SBTC?"
E. V. Price, C.O.E.D.D., Shawnee, Oklahoma: "One million dollars invested
capital from the private sector. Then application for license."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "We must develop
a complete prospectus."
Tom Longshore, Assistant to the Executive Vice President, Alabama Power
Company: "Discussion continues regarding details of formation of proposed
investment companies."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., CSM-EDP, and Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, Uni-
versity of Kentucky: "Suggest that existing financing company might assume
SBIC creation on a best efforts basis."
E. V. Price. C.O.E.D.D.: "I realize that public offering is but a portion of
this."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., CSM-EDP. and Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, Uni-
versity of Kentucky: (Request immediate introduction to such company.)
(Further discussion regarding formation of new capital base followed.)
Frank Hood, Chairman, Georgia Power Company: (Breaks meeting for coffee
break.)
Paul Deutschman, New York, New York: "When you talk about non-profit,
non-stock organization where will funds come from ?"
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "We are trying to
get money for EDT. We will get funds from the Appalachian Regional Commis-
sion, the EDA and some from OEO."
Paul Deutschman. New- York, New York: "This is implementation money ?"
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "Yes."
W. H. Brennan, Chief, EDA, U.S. Department of Commerce, Washington, D.C.:
"The EDT is the control group. What is the relationship of EDT and the first
SBTC?"
Albert K. Mock, Jr.. CSM-EDP: "Service contracts."
Eugene Mooney. Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "Basic small busi-
ness investment law has a very stringent prohibition against holding company
oper.ations. The only premanent connection and the only acceptable relation is a
consulting arrangement."
Tom Longshore. Alabama Power Company: "We have spent nine months and
four meetings getting to know each other. The people here already have connec-
tions in companies. We already have connections throughout the Appalachian
area. I can't visualize setting this up and then turning it over to some outside
organization."
Albert K. Mock. Jr., CSM-EDP: "It will not be necessary to have a large staff
but rather we will call in consultant specialists."
Paul Deutschman. New York, New York: "EDT Would have its own built-up
expertise and consulting ideas."
Eugene Mooney. Professor of Law-. University of Kentucky: "You would have
a knowledgeable representative group that know's the borrowers and the in-
vestors."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., CSM-EDP: "The board of any local investment company
has final say on every movement it makes."
PAGENO="0377"
1809
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "What has put the
group together is a uniqueness of government agencies, do-gooders and business-
men with a focus on regional development. The same forces that put us together
will continue."
Paul Deutschman, New York, New York: "In talking about an umbrella I
think of something standing over . . . doing nothing."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., CSM-EDP: "We see a local board set up with specialists
in many fields. Each board member will have an investment portfolio. It is only
when they get into a situation that they cannot handled that they will turn to
the over-all management group-EDT."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Georgia Power Company: "Gentlemen. Let's get on
with this. We have Dr. Morris Norfleet of Morehead State University, Morehead,
Kentucky, on university activities."
Dr. Morris Norfieet, Vice President of Research and Development, Morehead
State University, Morehead, Kentucky: "Thank you. I have `read the minutes
of the past meetings and will try to project.
"The university has been on the fringe of `development `of this concept. Our
president is very interested in this and we see a need in Eastern Kentucky for
this.
"As far as the work program is concerned, we are interested in economic, social
`and educational problems of the region. We are trying to project out and join
hands with many agencies and businesses in the region. We don't know solutions
and neither do we pretend to `but we `do know `about the problems that exist.
"In looking at long range problems the University of Kentucky has developed
vocational educational education programs. We intend `assisting ia the develop-
ment `of `small in'dustries.
". . . Dr. Norfieet proposed an Appalachian Institute-a training program that
can be used as college credit to develop technical manpower and then new indus-
try can be realized. . . . The plan should commence by 1970.
"We `think if we develop manpower we attract business to the region. We
function in a fifty county, area. My function here is to listen and learn and relate
our university to the programs of the Regional Development Commission."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Georgia Power Company: "Thank you Dr. Norfiett.
We appreciate your remarks. At this time I present to you Mr. Clark Tyler."
Clark Tyler, Alternative Field Co-Chairman, Appalachian Regional Coinmis-
sion, Washington, D.C.: "I'm happy to represent the Appalachian Regional Com-
mission. Our ideas are the same. This demonstrates that the federal government
can't do the job-the whole job. The private sector must be deeply involved and
is needed to do the job.
"There are a number of things `that `we are involving oursel'f with. An `SBIC
has been proposed for Letcher, Knott and Perry Counties, Kentucky, and another
project in the Kingdom Come Reservoir. These two projects represent a unique
opportunity to do something about the resettlement problem. `In Whitesburg
there are a number of highway projects which will open up the area for develop-
ment. I `w-oul'd hope that in this situation we ca'n realize intelligent planning.
"I hope we can provide housing for these `people that are being moved and
~provide equity which would give them a stake in the community. This is economic
development in the truest sense and this is where I hope we get. together with
you."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Georgia Power `Company: "The `purpose `of this or-
,ganization was to come `up with a total program. Today emphasis has been on
SBIC's. Other activities which will "tie in with particula'r economic organiza-
tions in government andprivate enterprises will be developed."
E. V. Price, C.O.E.D.D., `Shawnee, Oklahoma: "We feel like `guests. We don't
mean to offend anyone-but just want to `be grabbing for the same hot pot as
you."
Frank Hood, Chairman,' Georgia Power Company: "You are participants."
Eugene Mooney, `Professor of Law, University `of Kentucky: "We want to build
a flexible model that can be used in your area `also and adapt to your area."
E. V. Price, `C.O.E.D~D., Shawnee, Oklahoma: "We are concerned with different
regions. You are concerned with Appalachia. We are concerned with our region.
We see some potential in this but we need risk capital. If we find we need help
in mining coal then we could call on you. If you need help in working with oil
then you can call on us."
Eugere Mooney, Professor `of Law, University of Kentucky: "We envision `this
as being nationwide."
PAGENO="0378"
1810
Albert K. Mock, Jr., CSM-EDP: "We believe that if this concept can work in
Appalachia it can work anyplace."
E. V. Price, C.O.E.D.D., Shawnee, Oklahoma: "Our problem is the first million."
Paul Deutschman, New York, New York: "Do you anticipate getting money
from any other source other than federal government and private sector ?"
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law. LTniversity of Kentucky: "Yes. Possibly the
Ford Foundation or other philanthropic organizations."
Oliver Terriberry, Director, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development
Commission, Gainesville, Georgia: "A federal technical assistance approach will
provide a source of funds with no obligation to any particular interest group."
(Discussion regarding realization of first million.)
(Lengthly discussion follows regarding first investment procedures, licensing
and SBIC construction.)
(Discussion follows regarding relationship of conventional financial institu-
tions and SBIC'S.)
Frank Hood, Chairman, Georgia Power Company: "Adjourned meeting."
Frank Hood, Chairman. Georgia Power Company: "At this time we ask Mr.
Jim Templeton, OEO, Washington, D.C., to open this meeting with a discussion
on manpower."
James Templeton, Assistant Director. Office of Economic Opportunity, for Rural
America, Washington, D.C.: "This training in recent months. . . I don't know- if
w-e are going overboard or not but I'm w-ith manpower and training and have been
for sometime. I have some reservations about training as it is currently conducted.
I am concerned w-ith w-ho w-e are training, what w-e are training for and where
we go from there.
"There is no continuance of vocational training. This is no criticism of vo-
cational training but the fact is that we are fifteen years behind times with
training."
(Several examples and programs are enumerated by Mr. Templeton.)
`Realization of job opportunity is where we fall down. We. must assist in place-
ment. This group and all industries in Appalachia could be proposing training
toward realistic placement.
"I feel a role could be played by OEO in manpower training in Appalachia."
Fred Geromanos, Mayor-City of Bristol, Virginia and A.V.P.-Wa~hington
Trust Bank, Bristol, Virginia: "Effective training should be based on proven
needs."
James Templeton, OEO, Washington, D.C.: "Yes. We have proposed and dis-
cussed in two previous meetings of the Regional Development Commission that
the representatives of business and industry organize a survey. I proposed that
you survey your own needs and required employee qualifications. Industry must
cooperate and, where possible, adjust their employee qualifications."
Oliver Terriberry, Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Commission:
"Once this information is gleaned from industry, it will give us the knowledge
of what `training is needed."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., CSM-EDP. "The creation of a "manpower program under
the Regional Development :Commis~on could `lead toward this `activity."
.James Templeton, OEO, Washington, D.C.: "There should be a manpower
subcommittee set up as part of the Regional Development Commission."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., CSM-ERP: "Do you think we should write a program
and submit it at this time?"
James Templeton, OEO, Washington, D.C.: "Yes, it is my suggestion that this
be the work of the proposed subcommittee."
Frank Hood, Ohairman, Georgia Power Company: "At the last meeting we
discussed bringing in personnel directors of `the various companies represented
here. We've lost Gerald Bush-we are losing Jim Templeton. We need someone to
fill the gap."
Gerald Osborne, `Assistant Director, CSM-EDP: "This group needs the benefits
of `a staff person to develop this program. We need a manpower specialist assigned
to this committee."
Albert K. Mock, Jr., CSM-EDP: "It will take staff activity-constant activity-
to bring `this program about."
James Templeton, OEO, Washington, D.C.: "Two `tools of government should be
interested in funding a small staff to proceed `with this. ARC and EDA a's a second
possibility. Either depa'rtment `should be concerned w-ith `this program and willing
to give funds to complete th'is program."
PAGENO="0379"
1811
Frank Hood, Chairman, Georgia Power Company: "We muSt work within this
group to analyze the prdblems and 1~resent solutions."
(Additional detailed discussion follows concerning U.S. Department of Labor
manpower training programs.)
(Addition discussion follows regarding possthle new training methods.)
Frank Hood, Chairman, Georgia Power Company: "I believe we should con-
sider establishing a manpower subcommittee and bring Mr. Mooney's plan for
establishment of Enterprise Development Incorporated under discussion.
General discussion follows regarding make-up of the Regional Develop-
ment Commission executive cabinet and provision for subcommittees.
The matter is referred to the executive cab'inet on motion by Mr. Tom
Longshore, seconded by Mr. Dan Stewart and unanimously passed.
"Gene, we are ready to entertain your motion."
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "I renew motion
that the Commission authorize the legal incorporation of Enterprise Develop-
ment Incorporated."
Frank Hood, Chairman, Georgia Power Company: "Read the motion as follows:
"1 propose that at this stage we establish a non-profit, non-stock corporation to
be known as Enterprise Development Incorporated. That his corporation func-
tion like any other non-profit, non-stock operation. That it be a single corporation
licensed to do business ia all states proposed to have SBIC's and that it function
through `a `board and staff consisting of one half from this commission and one
half from representatives of each SB'IC. EDT will create investment corporations
and carry through with the function of a consulting coordinating agency for the
eventual chain of SB'IC's.
"I propose that the Commission, by vote, authorize the incorporation of this
agency as the first action phase of the Regional Development Commission."
Oliver Terriberry, `Georgia Mountains Planning and Development Corporation,
seconded the motion.
* Motion passed unanimously
Eugene Mooney, Professor of Law, University of Kentucky: "1 propose to have
the drafts of by-laws and necessary documents circulated in advance.
". . . Lengthy discussion follows regarding relationship of Enterprise Develop-
ment Incorporated to the Regional Development Commission and the Council
of the Southern Mountains
Frank Hood, Chairman, Georgia Power Company: "I present to you Mr. Bill
Eves of the U.S. Department of Labor."
W. M. Eves, Assistant, Regional Manpower Administration, Regional Office of
Manpower, Administration, Atlanta, Georgia: "There is much to talk about con-
cerning manpower. It is an insurmountable task but we will keep at it. I must try
to coordinate several suggestions from this group but emphasize that you must
open up lines of communication. We look at things a little different. We don't
have an open commission.
"I disagree with 1~Ir. Templeton about it being too early to become involved
with CAMPS (Cooperative Area Manpower Systems). How can we plan inter-
government wise? We have to train to the extent that industry responds. It is time
industry sits down and says this is out-dated and lets work out something prac-
tical.
"I suggest industry and government look at jobs-job analysis-and utilize re-
sources; inventory them up and come up with new jobs. Jobs must be definite-
not just an aid."
"Regardless of what might have been said, industry should advise Congress
to make comprehensive programs. We must have groups like all of you to' get
things going. We must get out of this stereotype way of thinking. Find something
concrete and then work on it."
James Templeton, OEO, Washington, D.C.: "I agree that the concepts' of
CAMPS is dynamic action. This commission and the jurisdiction of the CSM is
providing for a staff to start putting tools together such as CAMPS.
* . Lengthy discussion follows concerning practical development of man-
power training and the development of a job inventory component. . .
". . * Discussion is entered regarding a meeting date for the executive cabinet
of the Regional Development Commission
Frank Hood, Chairman, Georgia Power Company: "The Regional Development
Commission Executive Cabinet w-ill meet in Lexington on June 3, 1908, imme-
diately following the Executive Committee meeting of the Council Board.
"This meeting is adjourned."
PAGENO="0380"
1812
PARTICIPANTS, REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT Cox~rIssIoN, Couxcu. OF TIlE SOUTHERN
MOUNTAINS, Ixc., MAY 13-14, 1968, ATLANTA, GA.
Paul Deutschman, 251 Central Park West. New York, New York 10024.
Clark Tyler, Alternate Field Co-Chairman, Appalachian Regional Commission,
1666 Connecticut Avenue. Washington, D.C.
Jim Templeton. Assistant Director, Office of Economic Opportunity for Rural
America, 1832 M Street, N.W., Washington, D.C.
Jack Lloyd, Director of Area Development, Appalachian Pow-er Company, P.O.
Box 2091, Roanoke, Virginia.
Koder Collison, Appalachian Regional Commission, 1666 Connecticut Avenue,
Washington, D.C.
WT. H. Brennan, Chief, Economic Development Administration. U.S. Depart-
ment of Commerce, Washington. D.C.
E. V. Price, Director, C.O.E.D.D., Shawnee. Oklahoma.
Robert A. Chandler, Executive Director, Rio Grande Valley Development
Council, 411 First National Bank Building, McAllen, Texas.
Don Hardin, Director, W.A.E.D.D., Fort Smith, Arkansas.
John Ladd, Director, M.V.E.D.D.. Inc.. Mohawk, New York.
C. W. Henderson, Jr., Manpower Specialist, Northeast Area Development
Council, P.O. Box U, Olive Hill, Kentucky 41164.
Oliver Terriberry, Executive Director, Georgia Mountains Planning and De-
velopment Commission, P.O. Box 1294, Gainesville, Georgia 30501.
E. E. Melvin, Associate Director, ICAD-University of Georgia, Athens, Georgia.
B. C. Ford, Coordinator of Business Service, Graduate School of Business, Uni-
versity of Georgia, Athens, Georgia.
Torn Longshore, Assistant to the Executive Vice President, Alabama Pow-er
Company, 600 North 18th Street, Room 1102, Birmingham, Alabama 35203.
Morris, Norfleet, Vice President of Research and Development, Morehead
State University, Morehead, Kentucky.
W. M. Eves, Assistant, Regional Manpower Administration, Regional Office
of Manpower Administration, Atlanta, Georgia.
Fred Gerornanos, Mayor-City of Bristol, Virginia, and A.V.P.-Washington
Trust Bank, Bristol, Virginia.
Charles J. Lowry, Mount Rogers Citizens Development Corporation, 3165 Lee,
Bristol, Virginia.
Edward F. Hargan, Program Development, Small Business Administration,
811 Vermont Avenue, N.E., Washington, D.C. 20416.
Miles Siegel, CPA, Chairman-Technical Advisory Committee on Finance and
Investment, East Tennessee Economic Development District, Knoxville, Ten-
nessee.
Norton Norr, Vice President, Industrial Pallet Company, 2177 S Taylor Road,
Cleveland, Ohio 44118.
Arnold Almand, Planner IV, State Planning Bureau, Atlanta, Georgia.
B. Rhual, Planner IV, State Planning Bureau. Atlanta, Georgia.
Frank A. Hood, Director, Community Development Division, Georgia Pow-er
Company, P.O. Box 4545, Atlanta, Georgia 30302.
Clyde Ware. Program Director, Sears Roebuck Foundation, 675 Ponce de Leon
Avenue, Atlanta; Georgia 30308. -
- *- John K. Coster. Director, -Center for Occupational Education, North Carolina
State University. Marden Lane, Raleigh, North Carolina 27606. -
Bob Hannah, Georgia Pow-er Company, P.O. Box 4545-, Atlanta, Georgia 30302.
Calvin L. Walton, Director. Associations for Commerce and Trade, 110 E 23rd
Street, Room 400. New York, New York 10010. -
Dan Stewart, Director of Community Development, Kentucky Utilities, 120 S
Limestone Street, Lexington. Kentucky.
Charles Counts, Chairman, Georgia Art Commission, Route 2, The Pottery
Show, Rising Fawn, Georgia.
M. L. Sill, Associate Executive Director for Programs, Council of the Southern
Mountains, Berea, Kentucky.
Isaac Vanderpool. Council of the Southern Mountains, Berea, Kentucky.
Albert K. Mock, Jr., Director, Enterprise Development Project, -Council of the
Southern Mountains, Berea, Kentucky.
Gerald Osborne, Assistant Director, Enterprise Development Project, Council
of the Southern Mountains, Berea, Kentucky.
William H. Suters, Jr., Associate Executive Director for Development. Council
of the Southern Mountains, Berea, Kentucky.
PAGENO="0381"
1813
Nina Worley, Assistant to the Director of Development, Council of the Southern
Mountains, Berea, Kentucky.
Leonard Gallimore, Director, Talent Bank, Council of the Southern Mountains,
Berea, Kentucky.
Donna Roop, Secretary, Council of the Southern Mountains, Berea, Kentucky.
Robert S. Maston, Consultant, Council of the Southern Mountains, 1639 P
Street, NW., `Washington, D.C.
Mr. MOONEY. I would add, studies by the Small Business Adminis-
tration about the actual operation of the some 1,400 SBIC in this
country indicate that for every $10,000 equity investment, a new per-
manent job is created. For every $100,000 of new equity investment,
one new half million dollar business is created that employs between
15 and 30 people. For every $1 million of `new equity investment, we
have 10 of these new half million dollar size businesses. These create
new permanent jobs.
The per ~apita income obvioitsly increases. Disposable income in-
creases. Tax base expands, and it is self-sustaining.
The significance of all this, it seems to me, is apparent. And if the
Economic Opportunity Act of 1964 could be utilized effectively to
implement this kind of economic, permanent economic development,
then a breakthrough of almost unimaginable proportions could be
generated.
We believe that section 1-D, special impact program, contains the
seeds for this kind of implementation program.
Consequently we welcome this opportunity to urge that the Eco-
nomic Opportunity Act not only be extended but to direct your atten-
tion to the possible expansion of the special impact program.
MAJORITY COUNSEL. Thank you, professor. I just wanted to point
out in fiscal year 1969 the title 1-D program to which you refer re-
ceived an appropriation of $10 million. President Nixon's fiscal year
1970 budget calls for, I believe expenditure of $43 million in that cate-
gory so I think this shows that `the Administration is hearing your
~Toices.
Mr. Buckley?
MINORITY COUNSEL. Only one question. From your testimony which
brings some new material or some new approaches to the Economic
Opportunity Act, do you feel that as this type program is expanded,
that the Small Business Administration is the agency that *should
handle this?
Mr. MOCK. `We think that the word capitalism is great and we think
it includes everybody and we think that it takes more than one agency
to do this. Certainly the program should remain with the Small Busi-
ness Administration. There is no question about that, but there is
some question in my mind as to whether that agency should be author-
ized to do the technical work of putting together the same type of
capital base that they then become the licensor of and the monitoring
agency of.
In other words, I think they need to maintain an arm's length posi-
tion, at least as regards our plan. And while they do have a develop-
ment branch under their investment division, it really does not func-
tion in that sense, nor should it, in my opinion.
I hope I answered the question.
MINORITY COUNSEL. Do you visualize that the Office of Economic
Opportunity could handle operationally a program that you are dis-
cussing and a big expansion of it?
PAGENO="0382"
1814
Mr. MooNEY. We did not get adequate opportunity to explain the
work part of the model but the answer to your question is, no, essen-
tially. We believe the appropriate way to implement this is through
section 1-D, contracts or grants to independent civilian or non-Gov-
ernmental agencies to put together the small business investment corn-
panies around the Nation. That it should not be federalized and be-
come a department in the Office of Economic Opportunity, as indeed
1-D does not now contemplate.
But that the technical assistance program which actually erects the
SBIC's a.nd helps form the underlying small businesses, can best, most
efficiently be done and the expertise commanded through independent
vehicles, nonprofit corporations or consultant groups, that are not made
up of Federal employees but who function on contrasts through sec-
tion 1-D.
Our operation for example, functions that way now. Not through
OEO.
Mr. MOCK. Let me add this one point to that. We feel, too, that the
development is one effort-let us use the correct word-promotion.
The promotional effort in getting this capital base, the capital base
concept form. Again, it should be kept at arm's length from the agency
that is supposed to be managing it. Additionally, we found that it is
much quicker to work through community action agencies or com-
munity action agency type organizations. Not all the local groups that
we have been working with have been necessarily formed by OEO, but
we have found it is expedient to work with that type organization and
in some instances we have worked with OEO-funded community ac-
tion agencies because the final target of this effort is the broadest num-
ber of people possible.
If we already have these agencies in action they can be eventually
the means or the instrument for getting to the broadest number of
people possible.
MINORITY COUNSEL. Has the Council of Southern Mountains played
any part in your planning?
Mr. MOCK. Yes, sir; the council was the first funded agency. We op-
erated initially as a program. Now we moved the program into its own
corporate shell. It is a separate program but administered by the
council.
The primary reason for doing this is we are now involved with the
Securities and Exchange Commission and other regulatory bodies with
regard to the proper and traditional way for the issuance of common
stocks and construction of corporate finances.
MINORITY COUNSEL. When do you anticipate that you would have a
self-evaluation or independent evaluation of one or more-
Mr. MOCK. We are very much hopeful of having completed licensed
SBIC toward the end of the summer. We hope we will have one by
September. That is our target anyway.
There are other, of course, analogous activities. In order to justify
the capital base in some areas, as obvious as it may seem to you or us
here, sometimes you need an industry in the flesh such as the book-
J~indery or iron mountain plant, to prove to local people there is this
element of private capital, risk capital, that must be involved in crea-
tion of any new business or expansion of any business. And that there
is a necessity for the creation of capital base.
PAGENO="0383"
1815
So you can see, I think, or would agree, once we are able to complete
some successful `models, it is going to become much easier to complete
more. The main ingredient again is how and what `best methods can we
develop to make sure that the minority interest i's maintained and to
make sure people o'f very small means have the opportuni'ty to partici-
pate in this.
`This is a `dollar for dollar exchange. In other words, there would be
nothing but real money in it. So much of the investment dollar now
goes into the appropriation of everything. `That is why we feel `title 1-D
type support for this kind of effort would then insure that a dollar
invested gets where it is going.
MINORITY COUNSEL. I have one final question.
Mr. MOONEY. We welcome questions.
MINORITY COUNSEL. Assuming that these are successful and that the
enterprises produce some profit or some income, what is the philosophy
or theory `of ploughing back revenue into the community or into areas
where programs would benefit the community?
Mr. MOCK. In the first instance, each SBIC covers a given grouping
of counties that can be made up from various criteria. In other words,
topography of the area, natural inclination of the people `of `the area
to work together, activities that have been grouped together such as
by the regional development district, as proposed by Appalachian
Regional Commission or Development District, proposed by Economic
Development Administration, or the community action agencies, as
operated by Office of Economic Opportunity.
`This would be the method you would use in putting an area of Opera-
tion together. From that area we would draw the capital of that area
in the formation of an SBIC, a.nd investment company. From that area
you would construct a board `of directors, representatives of again the
broadest participation possible. That board would hire its own man-
agement staff.
Now, we would think in most instances tha't it would have to neces-
sarily be a relatively small staff because in most instances we are talking
between an initial capitalization of somewhere between $300,000 and
$1 million. Obviously that amount `of money will only generate so much
income, and if we are not careful about the spending of `that income
there will not be any dividends.
In any event, we `have `an overall umbrella management concept
which we can get into and which we can go ahead with in a minute. But
in any event, after the investment is in, the portfolio companies are
made, and these portfolio companies become successful, they return, by
their board of director's vote' `and direction, a segment of their profits
to the investors, one `of which in every case will be the local capital
base.
That is where they generate their incon'ie.
By the way, 35 percent of the base capitalization of SBIC can `be
loaned, 65 percent of it has to be invested, and for investment, purposes
they can consider convertible debentures to be an investment which
gives reasonable flexibility.
Now, as the profits generated from the portfolio come back to the
SBIC it then has the `option to do `several things, and this comes to your
question. They can increase the capital base with profit generated.
They can pay a dividend with profits generated. They can, of course,
PAGENO="0384"
1816
pay for their management services and they can do all of these things
in combination.
In other words, they are not wedded to any one thing. At that
point-and we do not think its is going to come quickly-we think we
would be highly lucky, almost unexplainable, if it came fast-but at
that point then you have a person `who, let's theorize, who is probably
putting in $10 a month, nmch as what is going on in mutual funds to-
day, who lives, let us say, in Damascus, Va., my hometown. Let us say
we have. $10,000 of his associates from a five county area doing the same
thing. Let us say we develop the Mount Rodgers area. and build ski
slopes and 10 motels and create a business that goes along with this,
plus a. first-class craft industry and other industrial support for this
type of thing.
Also by the way invest in some civic bonds to get our sewer and water
back, because there is no limitation on that. Then this starts to jell and
we get the 5 million people we are going to get there. Without a sewer
system, by the way, and they start buying hot dogs and hamburgers
and things we are selling and we start making profit, and motels are
making profit, and a good portion is going back in the SBIC.
We have the operation, we can increase the capital base of SBIC or
return those dividends back to that same man who now has new job
opportunity of a permanent nature and who put the $10 in, in the first
place. At that point we have proven what we say is capitalism in this
country.
MINORITY COUNSEL. Very good. Thank you.
Mr. MOONEY. Let me add one thing to this. Our prior experience has
been in rural a.reas. It is easier for us to give examples with number
and names and places on them. We feel. however, that the concept and
the need for investment vehicles owned by as many of the poor people
as it is possible to get in there is the missing link in how the ordinary
person, black or white, in urba.n areas gets a piece of t.he action.
We feel that many of the programs projected now for, in some man-
ner or another changing the whole drift of the urban ghettos, are
deficient insofar as they do not have equity aggregation devices. There
is adequate loan capital available. Let us say it could be made available
very easily. The difficulty is the equity, the operating capital, the front
end money, in other words. And this we believe, this scheme, this plan,
this model, this prototype we are trying to build contains the adapta-
bility to be usable in a wide variety of economically undeveloped areas,
which is one of t.he reasons we believe it would be of interest to this
committee, not only because of its concern with rural poverty, but
also its concern with urban poverty.
Mr. MocK. This is not our first time before a committee with this
concept. `We have been before the House Public `Works Subcommittee
on Appalachia. and we have been talking this concept pretty con-
sistently for 2 years now.
`We feel we are in the right pew now `because of t'he people `orienta-
tion of this committee. We talked in our prepared testimony here `about
hardware projects. It is never very difficult to see what is needed in
the way of roads or `bridges or the things that are visible. It is extremely
difficult though to find out exactly what is our problem with people
today. And we maintain that one of our major problems is the fact that
so many people do not feel that they are part of-and I use `this word
advisedly-the system, and we feel that this gives a broader number
PAGENO="0385"
1817
of people an opportunity tO buy into the system. Nobody has to do this,
and we think the promotional job is going to :be extremely difficult, but
at least it is taking existing legislation and putting a new direction
on it.
There is not anything required to do what we are talking about. I am
sure the question must occur in your minds, "Why haven't you been
doing something?" And I answer by saying, we try every way we can.
I would like to read one statement.
MINORITY COUNSEL. I ask you why the Small Business Adminis-
tration has not been doing anything?
Mr. MocK. I don't think they have the authority to go out and
create it. They have to regulate it. That would be my answer and that
is my feeling about it, and that is where our discussions with them have
let. They have in every way, shape, and form aided and abetted our
efforts. So there is no problem there.
The real problem is technical assistance, directing of technical assis-
tance. Let me say this. We are not up here to knock anything or any-
body and we are not doing that because we realize what the directions
are that these things have to follow, but there are piles of feasibility
studies. You know what they say. We would like to implement some of
those studies. We think the day of implementation is upon us.
May I read this from an address that Professor Mooney made. He
won't read it and it summarizes everything we are trying to say here.
There is an old blues song in the South that goes like this:
I've gotten down to my last pair of shoes, Cain't even win a nickel bet, Cause
them that's got, is them that gets. And I ain't got nothin' yet.
MINORITY COUNSEL. You don't have to confine that to that particular
`ire't or that p~trticular man though
MaJORITY CO~ThSEL Earlier when the Minority Counsel asked a
question `is to `~ hether or not an expansion of the krnd of activities
undertaken under title 1-D should stay with OEO, you replied in the
negative. I want to pursue that for a moment.
Mr. MOONEY. I wish to correct the chairman.
MAJORITY COUNSEL. As I listened to you, I thought you did not really
mean that.
Mr. MOONEY. I am sorry I misspoke myself. I intended to answer, it
should remain in our judgment. There is no question about it. Not
only that, your middle name is economic, and that is what we are
talking about. The Office of Economic Opportunity.
MAJORITY COUNSEL. I take it also you feel title 1-D's major thrust
should be economic development?
Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.
MAJORITY COUNSEL. It has come to the committee's attention some-
times in the past when title 1-D moneys were administered by other
agencies, the thrust that they put behind the program was not directed
toward economic development per Se. But you are satisfied with the
way OEO is administering this program and the emphasis they are
giving to 1-D?
Mr. MocK. To the best of our ability, in research regarding title
i-D, the authorization seemed to be adequate. As we read it, $60 mil-
lion-we do not know exactly what this is to cover-$60 million is a
sizable figure by any definition.
27-754-69--pt. 3-25
PAGENO="0386"
1818
It is our understanding that the appropriation has never come up
anywhere close to $60 million. The appropriation has been closer to
$10 million during the past 2 fiscal years for OEO activities.
Now we understand there has been additional appropriations but
it has not been controlled necessarily for economic development. If that
answers the question.
MAJORITY COUNSEL. And I also take it that as a part of economic
development you feel very strongly about the principle of having poor
people develop ownership and equity. This comes through strongly
in your statement.
Mr. MOONEY. One of the aphorisms in some of our material that will
appear in the record is that this offers not just jobs but jobs and
ownership.
MAJORITY COUNSEL. This is an important element in developing any
plan for a 1-D funded project.
* Mr. MOCK. I think there are many other things that are going to
have to happen. When you ask should poor people be involved in this
thing, by our definition, everybody but about 1,000 families in this
country are poor.
MAJORITY COUNSEL. One final point, the SBA as I understand it,
under the title 4 program authorized by the Economic Opportunity
Act provides loans through what is called economic opportunity loan
program to individuals, businessmen, to try to help them develop
businesses. They try to focus on businesses which are located in or near
areas of high unemployment. But this program does not provide an
opportunity for equity ownership on the part of the poor.
Mr. MOCK. That is correct. All the SBA programs we are familiar
with, as well as EBA business loan provisions are for hardware again,
and they have to be collateralized either by building, by plant, equip-
ment, or land on which this is going to occur. In most instances it
goes as high as 65 percent.
But there still has to be local participation and there still has to be
investment on the part of owners or proprietors or whoever ~5 going to
put it together. It is the development portion of it we are interested in
talking about. We would like to get this in the record. We are abso-
lutely convinced there has to be local participation, that you do not
have anything started until you have local participation. And we do
not mean sitting around boards and talking about time contributions.
We are talking about dollar contributions, and an opportunity to be a
part of what is going on.
This has to be real and it has to be legal, otherwise you do not have
participation.
MAJORITY COUNSEL. Are there any further questions, Mr. Buckley?
I want to thank you on behalf of the committee for presenting an
interesting and excellent presentation.
The committee will stand in recess until 9 :30 a.m. Monday.
(Whereupon, at 3 :35 p.m., the committee recessed until 9 :30 a.m.,
Monday, May 5, 1969.)
PAGENO="0387"
ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY AMENDMENTS OF 1969
MONDAY, MAY 5, 1969
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
TAs1~ FORCE ON POVERTY OF THE COMMIrPEE
ON EDUCATION AND LABOR,
Washington, D.C.
The task force met at 9 :45 a.m., pursuant to recess, in room 2175,
Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Carl D. Perkins (chairman of
the committee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Perkins, Green, Pucinski, Hawkins,,
`Stokes, Quie, Erlenborn, Scherle, Dellenback, Esch, Steiger, and Ruth~
Staff members present: H. D. Reed, Jr., general counsel; WTilliarn~
F. Gaul, associate general counsel; Robert E. McCord, chief clerk and~
senior specialist; Charles W. Radcliffe, minority counsel for educa-
tion; and John Buckley, chief minority investigator.
Chairman PERKINS. Let me take this opportunity to welcome the
American Bar Association Legal Services Panel before the committee.
We are delighted to have you here this morning, Mr. Segal. I know
that when we first enacted the Legal Services Panel it was very con-
troversial. Many of the Members in the Congress thought it was not
the thing that we should do at that time, but time has proved that this
has been a most important segment of the poverty program in general.
I have always felt that the legal services will redound to the benefit
of the whole country.
Having been a county attorney for some years, I know I spent about
two-thirds of my time advising poor people how to draw deeds, con-
ditional sales contracts, and so forth. I know the good work which has
come from the legal services part of this program. Of course, we would
never have been able to enact the program at all but for the `active sup-
port of the American Bar Association.
I will be delighted `to hear your views this morning and I welcome
you gentlemen here. I will look forward to your suggestions, the com-
mittee will, on how we can improve the program.
You may introduce your panel, Mr. Segal. I understand you are the
president-elect of the American Bar Association.
Proceed in any manner you prefer.
STATEMENT OP BERNARD G. SEGAL, PRESIDENT-ELECT,
AMERICAN BAR ASSOCIATION
Mr. SEGAL. `Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
As you have indicated, I am Bernard G. Segal. I am engaged in the
practice of the law in Philadelphia and currently serve as president-
elect of the American Bar Association.
(1~l9)
PAGENO="0388"
1820
I thought the way we might proceed this n'iorning is for me to make
an initial statement on behalf of the American Bar Association, the
National Bar Association, and the National Legal Aid and Defender
Association.
Chairman PERKINS. Naturally we want to hear from all those people,
the Committee on Legal Aid and Indigent Defendants, National Bar
Association, and National Legal Aid & Defender Association. You
proceed in any way you wa.nt.
Mr. SEGAL. When I am through I though we might have brief state-
ments from the gentlemen who are here, to my right, Mr. Lewis S.
Flag~ III, who is the Associate Solicitor of the Department of the
Interior and will be appearing today as cochairman of the Washington
bureau of the National Bar Association.
To his right is Mr. Theodore Voorhees who is engaged in the private
practice in Philadelphia and soon will be departing from our center to
this great center here in Washington. He is the immediate past presi-
dent of the National Legal Aid & Defender Association.
To my left is a gentleman who has been extreniely active in the OEO
legal services program. He is a practicing attorney from Albuquerque,
N. Mex., and is chairman of the American Bar Association Standing
Committee on Legal Aid and Indigent Defendents. This is one of the
two committees we have actively engaged in this field, the other being
the special committee on the availability of legal services.
Mr. Chairman, I appreciate very much your preliminary statement.
It is my view that the American Bar Association has no more pressing
activity at the present time than this entire problem of legal services to
the poor. When President Kennedy, in 1963, asked that I serve as co-
chairman of the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights Under Law,
which was formed at the White House on that day, the first thing I
discovered is that there isn't much profit in talking with the 35 million
poverty citizens in America about their rights if they have no one to
enforce them or, indeed, to explain what the rights mean to them.
As I travel about the United States, and this is equally true in the
North, East and Wrest as it is in the South, I ran into hundreds and
hundreds of these individuals who simply do not know what their
rights are and had no access to any means to find them.
Now, there has been considerable effort on tile part of the bar over
the years, by legal aid, by the defenders, under the national operations
of the National Legal Aid & Defender Association, by other worth-
while assbciations and neighborhood law offices, but these efforts, large
as they have been on the pai~t of the individuals engaging in them, have
simply been inadequate even to scratch the surface of the vast need.
A great amount of credit, Mr. Chairman, is, therefore, due to the
Congress in having addressed itself to the problem at a critical time
in perhaps the most turbulent period of our history since the Civil
War.
I concur fully with your view, sir, that legal services are certainly a.s
important and perhaps because of the emphasis we as lawyers give it,
but I think in a larger framework, more important than any other
aspect of the poverty program.
PAGENO="0389"
1821
This is certainly true insofar as the maintenance of respect for law
and any kind of treatment of the vast problems in the prevention and
detection of crime.
If it is true, as I know it is true, that 70 percent of our youth today,
who are released, come back with a second crime within 4 years, the
matter of making available to them at the outset the appropriate legal
services will, I think, be a major step in the solution of the crime
problem.
So, Mr. Chairman, I say preliminarily before launching into a for-
mal statement that I believe the work of your committee, in which you
are now engaged in the maintenance and the advancement of the legal
services program, is one of the very important tasks that face any com-
mittee of the Congress and, from the standpoint of the Nation, is a
paramount problem to which we must address ourselves.
It is for these reasons that we welcome the opportunity to appear
again before this committee to reaffirm our support for, and our en-
dorsement of the legal services program of the Office of Economic
Opportunity.
In addition to the previous joint appearance of our organizations
before this committee in July of 1967, we were privileged to support
the program in testimony before the Senate Authorization Committee
and the cognizant subcommittees of the Appropriations `Cornmit~ees of
both Houses during the 90th Congress.
As is our prior testimony, we urge that the authorization of funds
for this vital program not only be continued but that it be substantially
increased.
* I. SUPPORT OF PROGRAM BY THE ORGANIZED BAR
The active interest in and support for the program by the organized
bar is manifested in a number of ways. At present, the presidents of
each of our organizations serve on the National Advisory Committee
to the legal `services program which recommends policies to the Direc-
tor of OEO and the director of the legal services program. Other ac-
tive members of this important committee include a former president
of~ the National Bar `Association, the immediate past president of
NLADA, the immediate past president and myself as president-elect
of the ABA, two chairmen of standing committees of the ABA con-
cerned with legal services and presidents and past president's of other
professional organizations of lawyers operating throughout the United
States. Representatives of our associations have also participated in
project evaluations in 68 communities of the United States and the
Commonwealth of'Puerto Rico during the last 12 months.
I direct the attention of the committee for later examination to a
list of these communities and the wide geographic and demographic
spread of these evaluations. They cover 31 States, the District of Co-
lumbia., `and Puerto Rico.
These visits, normally from 2 to 7 days, provide first-hand observa-
tion of project performance and include interviews with a broad spec-
trum of the client populations, the bench, bar and local officials. Add-
ing further to our knowledge of program operation are the numerous
PAGENO="0390"
1822
informal reports received from bar associations, other groups through-
out the country, local lawyers, and elected officials like yourselves who
know of the organized bar's interest in the program.
We hear frequently from Members of the Congress. We welcome
at all times their inquiries and their comments about our participation
:and, of course, greatly appreciate the importance of their continued
interest and involvement.
We have also maintained our close, cooperative and continuous
liaison with the headquarters and regional staff of the legal services
program. Our active participation demonstrates our faith in the prin-
ciples of the program and our concern for its effective professional
operation.
I believe that the embracing of the program to which you referred,
Mr. Chairman, by the American Bar Association is really one of the
high spots of its existence. I can say it because it so happens that I
played no major role in that and the credit I tender, therefore, is to
others.
The lead, of course, was taken by the Congress, but it was not easy
at first. In my own city a group of several hundred lawyers brought
suit to enjoin the Philadelphia Bar Association which I once had the
honor to head, as did Mr. Voorhees to my right, from participating in
the program.
One of my partners acted as counsel in defense. It was a troublesome
suit. It got a great deal of publicity and I think for awhile shook the
confidence of the poor of our community. The excellence of the manner
in which the program has operated there has, I think, eliminated that
initial lack of confidence, but it does indicate the kind of problems
with which the organized bar was confronted with when it first entered
this arena.
II. OVERALL ASSESSMENT OF PROGRAM PERFORMANCE
The OEO currently funds 265 legal service projects which support
over 800 law offices for the poor employing 1,800 lawyers in 49 States,
as well as the District of Columbia and in the Commonwealth of Puerto
Rico.
In addition, 42 projects are funded through research, demonstration
or technical and training assistance grants.
From our vantage point of having responsibility for the activities
of the organized bar over the Nation, I believe that we can assure this
committee that the program continues to fulfill its general objectives
and is providing good quality legal service to the poor.
I can tell you, being a partner of a firm which has the large problems
of recruitment that the larger law firms in the country have today, that
I have nothing but admiration for young men who can easily secure
salaries of $15,000 a year, as they do with the leading offices of New
York, and from $12,500 to $15.000 in other major urban communities,
who nevertheless go to the legal services staff of the OEO at salaries at
least a third less than they could receive elsewhere.
These are dedicated, talented young men and their work and their
representation show this.
PAGENO="0391"
1823
III. EFFECTIVENESS OF PROGRAM
Legal services in my view has had deep impact upon the poor in
many of the communities in which it operates. I know that in urban
areas which I have visited for not just American Bar Association but
for the Lawyers Committee on Civil Rights Under Law, that time and
again we hear from the poor in those areas statements which indicate
that for the first time there is the understanding, not only of what their
own rights mean, but what the American system means, once they are
divested of the feeling that somehow law and the legal system have
passed them by.
I think that the legal services are operating to establish firm link-
ages with the poor for the first time and all the more within the frame-
work of our legal system. We are proud in this country, indeed we
think we have taken the lead among the democratic nations of the
world, in the protection of the rights of the individual.
I must say that for the first time that this has been done on a broad
national scale with all the emphasis of the Governments' sponsorship
with the embracing by these various organizations of the organized
bar-I `say for the first time that the true emphasis which has been
given to this Nation's interest in protecting the rights of the individual
`at every level of our society, not just at the privileged levels, has come
in its largest phase with the OEO legal services for the poor.
Therefore, I emphasize again and again that I regard it not just as
providing, as we should provide, legal services as yet far, far inade-
quate, to this large segment of our community; I emphasize in addition
that `there is the element that we are effectuating the American system
in its fine essence.
It is because I so strongly `believe it and wherever I go, I observe it.
In only a few iiIstances have programs failed to provide useful direct
services to individuals or achieve gains on a `broad front affecting the
total community of the poor. The present program administrators and
`the organized bar are assisting with technical `and consultative service
to improve the quality of these projects and to increase further the
effectivenes of the more `successful and established projects.
OEO estimates that 80 percent of program activity consists of direct
professional `assistance to individuals in the solution of personal or
family problems within the framework of the law. Ten percent is
directed to activity which may affect broad segments of the poverty
community through litigation or legislation.
The remaining 10 percent of program activity provides assistance
in economic planning and community development. At least 58 percent
of the 265 projects are `actively helping in the creation of such com-
munity enterprises.
Legal services projects have successfully provided as'sistan'ce to
neighborhood groups in obtaining benefits from other Federal and
State programs. For example, project lawyers have represented groups
and community development agencies interested in participation in the
model cities program.
Projects have also drawn applications for grants under the Federal
Housing Act and assisted in planning phases on behalf of groups
interested in the benefits of the Omni'bus Crime Oontrol an'd Safe
Streets Act of 1968.
PAGENO="0392"
1824
Legal assistance has also been provided in forming and advising
neighborhood development corporations, tenant unions, buying clubs,
coimnunity newspapers, cooperative housing units, day care centers,
credit unions, self-service laundries, food centers, and other coopera-
tive and necessary enterprises too numerous to mention.
I might intersperse here my own experience quite recently. I am a
life trustee at the University of Pennsylvania and we have had dialogs
with our students going into early hours of the morning quite recently
on the question of involvement in the area that borders on the urii-
versity, an area called Mantua, a black area where there is a good deal
of poverty.
Quite recently I attended the opening of a day care center in that
area. It really would have been warming to the members of this coin-
mittee if they could have been present and could have observed the
reaction of the citizens of that area to the opening of just one day
center; could have talked to the ladies as to the impact that that was
going to have on their lives and the lives of their children.
You multiply that through the country and you realize the cumula-
tive effect on the morale of these people just to know that somebody
cared for them to that extent. I know you would derive some satis-
faction which your efforts so richly deserved.
In the State of Michigan the project funded by OEO provided major
impetus and technical assistance to a legislative program which re-
sulted in major revisions in the State housing code.
I might say that is a subject on which the American Bar Associa-
tion has a special committee, a committee which is mightily endeavor-
ing to determine what we can do in America about the inequalities of
opportunities for housing and the substandard housing which exists
in so. many of the areas of the country.
In statistical terms, the program at its current level of operations
will provide direct legal assistance in approximately 600,000 cases in
this fiscal year
Now, the term "cases" as we use it includes matters ranging from
advisory conferences to extended litigation running all the way to the
Supreme Court of the United States. You will be interested to know
that Of the litigated cases favorable decisions have been received in
approximately 70 percent and negotiated settlements have been reached
in an additional 15 percent, according to OEO statistics.
This means that in 90 percent of the cases, a result reasonably satis-
factory to the poor, which had been represented, had been obtained.
Because of the statutory restrictions as currently interpreted by
OEO, legal services lawyers are unable to reach many persons in need
of criminal representation which today is not available from other
local sources.
Our organizations are opposed to this restriction since it denies the
poor assistance in a contact with "the law" that may deprive indi-
viduals of personal liberty and their family of financial support.
The legal obligation of States to provide defense representation in
felony cases under the decisions of the Supreme Court of the United
States is of little consequence to a defendant subject to the awesome
power of the prosecution in an area where the State does not, in fact,
provide a truly adequate defense.
PAGENO="0393"
1825
It is even harder to explain to the poor why legal assistance is not
authorized in those gray areas of police court, misdemeanor, or quasi-
criminal actions. These fine di~t.inetions that perhaps we understand
are lost upon them.
The image of helpfulness of the project is ther~by shattered and
linkage with its community is impaired. When I say that perhaps we
understand it, I must frankly say that I personally cannot understand
the restrictions or the reason for it. It is one of the `most important
functions of the legal services program to prove by deeds to the dis-
advantaged that there are lawyers to help them use legal processes to
resolve their grievances.
The National Advisory `Commission on `Civil Disorders found that
the response of the poor to consumer exploitation, (housing inequities,
arbitrary administrative practices, discrimination in employment, too
often is riot on the streets rather than recourse to the courts.
It is now joined by the National Commission on the `Causes `and
Prevention of Violence in its January progress report. This is the only
place I shall quote to your honors from any source but I think this
excerpt provides such an excellent statement of the problem that with
your permission, I shall quote just one paragraph of this January
progress report on the National Commission on the Oauses and Pre-
vention of Violence. I quote:
Another `area in which `the law may fail the disadvantaged is the matter of
practical, available civil remedies for abuses by landlords and exploitative mer-
chants `and for inaction or denial of rights by putblic official's. The `studies of the
Task Force `suggest that our system has generally not performed this function
very well. While `the expense `of legal counsel, the existence of procedural ob-
stacles, the slowness of the civil justice system, and other like factors are frustrat-
lag for all classes of citizens, they fall with special impact on the disadvantaged
who have the great'est need for legal protection; `For the poor the rule of `law may
be seen as one-sided and oppressive. Making legal services widely available to the
poor `can in fact be ,an important part of the strategy of public order, for if the
disadvantaged have `little or no affirmative access to the courts, `they may resort
to other, more violent solutions of their problems. (Oh'apter VII `of the Commis-
sion's report "Law and `Law Enforcement" is attached as Exhibit No. 2.)
Respect for the law cannot be achieved unless there is access to its
remedies as well as its sanctions, so often perceived by the poor as re-
prisals of the establishment. A competent and devoted advocate is
needed for this result.
As I indicated earlier as my own view I gave you the view of all
these organizations, that the legal services program is `an attracting
and training just this type of lawyer but it takes time for the poor
individual, unfamiliar with' legal processes, to understand the full
potential for self-help that the lawyer offers him.
H.R. 53 would authorize an extension of the Office of Economic
Opportunity for 5 years. Certainly, an extended `authorization for this
important part of the total effort `against poverty is sensible and
justified.
IV. RECRuITMENT AND RETENTION OF PROGRAM ATTORNEYS AND IMPACT
ON LEGAL EDUOATION
This committee is aware `of the impact which the legal services pro-
gram has had on young lawyers `and legal education in this country.
One of the practices I have instituted as I have gotten `around the
PAGENO="0394"
1826
country in the past 6 months has been in each community to endeavor
to meet, always rather easily, with the faculties of the law schools of
the community, and because they have so many other involvements
with greater difficulty with the student bodies, I would say really with-
out hesitation that the thing that appears to stir the majority and
excite the interest of these young people more than any other factor is
this problem of how they can become involved in and how they can
help in the ghetto and poverty areas of America.
This is something concrete. And incidentally, one of their measures
of whether we of another generation really mean what we say is what
we do in these respects. On April 16, three law students from the TJni-
versity of Virgimia presented to the Secretary of Health, Education,
and Welfare a petition to the President urging him "to do everything
in your power to insure that vigorous legal service programs across
the country are maintained and substantially expanded over the next 4
years."
This petition, a copy of which was also presented to this committee,
as I understand it, by the students on April 16, was signed by nearly
8,000 law students and professors from throughout the United States.
Recruitment of lawyers is no longer a problem for the legal services
program despite the disparity in compensation paid these young law-
yers by legal services as contrasted with private offices.
Conversely, applications from 1,200 lawyers, law professors. law
deans and third-year students were received by OEO for the Reginald
Heber Smith fellowship program, a program designed for the intensive
training of lawyers in poverty law followed by a year's service in local
projects.
Only 250 of these applications, the large majority of whom were top
men from leading law schools, could be accepted because of the limita-
tion of funds.
So that we had 950 top people, both from faculties and from law
students who could not be granted. As you know, this is a remarkable
turnabout from the pattern prior to the existence of the legal services
program when the vast majority of talented law graduates competed
for positions with the large private firms, rather than with public
agencies.
Similarly, recruitment of law graduates for the VISTA lawyers
program has reflected the same enthusiasm on the part of these bright
young professionals to help in the core problems of our society.
We have appended to the statement which we have distributed to
the committee an article by Mr. James C. Millstone of the St. Louis
Post Dispatch commenting upon this new momentum in the profession.
That appears as exhibit 3.
While the ares of recruitment is one of the brighter accomplishments
of the le~gal services program, retention of these competent young pro-
fessionals is one of the more perplexing problems. We simply must pro-
vide additional security and opportunities for career development for
these able lawyers who are the backbone of the program.
To keep faith with poor clients, a large number of these good and
experienced men must be retained in the program. This could well
constitute our strongest brief for an extended program authorization.
I know that some members of this committee are lawyers and all of us
PAGENO="0395"
1827
know the kickback we get from a client when we say that in a private
office with the same overall direction we are going to transfer a lawyer~
from a case and put a new lawyer on it.
Well, the poor have no different reaction from seeing a different per-
son represent them in the same matter and then be replaced by another
person. So, I urge that the continuity is important to them as it is to
the large corporation client in this country.
While commenting on the changes evident in our young lawyers, law
students and legal education, I wish to add our wholehearted endorse-
ment to the testimony which will be presented to the committee today
by those representing the counsel on legal education opportunity, better
known as OLEO.
I am privileged to be a member of the CLEO Council and the Amer-
ican Bar Association and the National Bar Association are two of the
cosponsors of c1LEO. I shall not talk about the other sponsors since I
am sure you will be hearing about them from `CLEO and I don't want
to subject you to a repetition of testimony.
I do want to say that we view the CLEO program as one of the
most challenging and vital components of the organized bar's effort
to meet the complex problems of poverty in our society and to give to
the black community, the Mexican community, the Puerto Rican corn-
munity, the Spanish-American community representation by people
of their own, which is what they seek and rightly deserve.
v. SIZE OP PROGRAM
Our associations have consistently urged an increase in the size and,
therefore, the appropriations available to the legal services program.
It has been and it remains our opinion that a level of $90 million is
necessary as a floor to meet the immediate need, pressing need for legal
services.
Attaining this minimal level has been precluded by the limitation
of funds. I do not want you gentlemen to think we are not cognizant of
the many, many demands made upon the Congress, but I have already
indicated the priority which we think this particular clause deserves
and this has been amply stated in your introductory statement, Mr.
Chairman.
We are encouraged, however, by the fact that one in your position
holds that view and by the recognition accorded to the program in the
budget announced by the President on April 15. The $58 million ear-
marked for legal services, although `short of the mark, will allow some
program expansion.
OEO records indicate that applications for new projects from more
than 100 communities have not been processed because of funding limi-
tations. Over 50 percent of these requests are from rural or sparsely
populated areas, many in the South and Southwest where there is great
need.
The whole of Appalachia is essentially without organized or readily
accessible services for the poor except as provided gratuitously by
thinly dispersed private lawyers. Many existing projects need addi-
tional funds to handle the burgeoning caseloads which threaten the
quality of the service.
PAGENO="0396"
1828
Despite the great strides made in recent years, our estimate is that
only one-fifth of the poor are being served by an effective organized
system of legal assistance. We have included in exhibit No. 4 certain
heavily populated areas where no organized legal assistance for the
poor exists at all.
VI. STRUCTURE OF PROGRAM
The lawyer for the poor, if he is to have the trust and confidence of
his clients, must always remain independent, devoted wholly to the
client's cause and thereby acting in the best tradition of our profession.
Efforts to give lawyers `at the local level this necessary freedom of
action within `a federally funded program have, I regret to report., not
been uniformly successful.
Yet, it is essential if we are to have the linkage to the poor that is
so important and if we are to maintain the confidence of the poor in
the program.
Each individual client simply has to believe that his interest is the
only interest that the lawyer who represents him has. I might say again
that even in the private community where people pay their own fees,
we find a regrettable questioning at times as to whether the lawyer's
sole interest is the client's.
Just think of the poor where he doesn't pay the fee, where the lawyer
is supplied by an outside agency, if he sees something that gives him
material reason to believe that the laywer's interest rests elsewhere or
the control over him is by someone other than the client plus the
lawyer's usual adherence to the canons of ethics that control his pro-
fession. There is need, of course, for administration and reasonable
controls but this must be. informed and sensitive administration and
control applied with the full realization that it is a professional pro-
gram that is being dealt with.
Such has not always `been true of the course of the `legal services
program and much professional effort has had to be spent, and I am
talking about regional and local levels, on misdirected `bureaucratic
problems of the agency.
Assuming the continuance of available Federal agency devoted to
the special problems of the poor, it would appear that the legal services
program should remain within such a general situation; provided that
the freedom of the lawyers to represent their clients can be assured.
We would urge that the status of the program within the overall
agency structure be reexamined at the appropriate time. Although we
feel that it is perhaps too early to urge the establishment of a separate
entity within the Federal structure this course may be the best solution.
VII. CONCLtISION
In conclusion, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, we
wish to state again our conviction that the legal services program,
where available, has meaning for and is playing a vigorous role in the
lives of the poor, and it is accepted by them.
It has demonstrated in a unique manner that the establishe.d order
hears their plea, recognizes their need, and provides for them in the
precious processes of American justice.
(Documents follow:)
PAGENO="0397"
1829
EXHIBIT No. 1
COMMUNITIES VISITED BY REPRESENTATIVES OF AMERICAN BAR AssocIATIoN, NA-
TIONAL BAR ASSOCIATION, AND NATIONAL LEGAL AID & DEFENDER ASSOCIATION,
APRIL 15, 1968, TO APRIL 15, 1969
Alabama:
Hamilton New Orleans
Troy Massachusetts:
Arizona: Phoenix Boston
Arkansas: Little Rock Cambridge
California: Michigan:
Berkeley Bay City
Fresno Detroit
Los Angeles ~ Escanaba
Modesto Flint
Monterey Lansing
Riverside Saginaw
San Diego Minnesota: St. Paul
San Francisco2 Mississippi: Philadelphia
Stockton Missouri:
Colorado: Jefferson City
Canon City Kansas Olty
Colorado Springs Montana: Statewide evaluations in
Denver eight (8) communities
Pueblo Nebraska:
Connecticut: Lincoln
New Haven Omaha
Waterbury New Jersey: Newark
District of Columbia: Washington New York:
Florida: Mineola
Fort Myers New York City4
Miami Ohio:
Georgia: Savannah Cincinnati
Idaho: Lewiston Columbus
Illinois: Oregon: Eugene
Bloomington Puerto Rico: San Juan
Chicago South Carolina:
Cook County suburban Greenville
Indiana: Spartanburg
Gary Tennessee: Shelbyville
Indianapolis Texas: Houston
Iowa: Utah:
Des Moines Ogden2
Dubuque' Salt Lake City
Waterloo Wisconsin:
Kansas: Madison
Kansas City3 Milwaukee
Wichita Wyoming:
Louisiana: Cheyenne
Baton Rouge Wind River
1 2 visits to programs.
2 2 visits to programs.
2 visits to programs.
3 visits to programs.
2 visits to programs.
EXHIBIT No. 2
PROGRESS REPORT OF THE NATIONAL CoMMIssIoN ON THE CAUSES AND PREVENTION
OF VIOLENCE TO PRESIDENT LYNDON B. JOHNSON
VII. LAW AND LAW ENFORCEMENT
When violence threatens the personal security of our citizens, when the price
of assuming leadership in society is a substantial risk of injury or death, when
force is used to influence the vital decisions of government, then the basis of
social order is threatened.
Many people believe it is dangerous to "make violence pay" by responding
quickly to effect major social changes. There is equal danger, however, in pro-
PAGENO="0398"
1830
ceeding directly from the indispht~tb1C need for effective social cdfiLtdl of violence
to the conclusion that such control can be achieved solely by strengthening our
law enforcement institutions or dealing more sternly with those who commit
violent crimes. Major increases in coercive legal control, unaccompanied by other
measures, could intensify the anger of people `already discontented and lead to an
escalating cycle of violence and repression. Law is most effective when those
subject to it believe that it sustains and regulates a just social system and that
the operation of the legal system is itseif consistent with their concepts of justice.
In recognition of the principle that the law must be just as well as effective if
public order is to be secure, the Task Force on Law and Law Enforcement, under
the direction of George L. Saunders, Jr., Esq., and LeRoy D. Clark, Esq., is
dealing with the relationship of our legal institutions to violence on two distinct
but related levels: (1) to determine how law enforcement agencies can deal more
effectively with violent crime and violent aspects of mass demonstrations and
protests; (2) to determine how our system of law and law enforcement might
be improved to bring about greater respect for the rule of law by those who now
engage in violent conduct.
On the first level we are building on the invaluable contributions of predecessor
commissions, particularly the President's Commission on Law Enforcement and
Administration of Justice. That Commission found that throughout the nation,
the whole system of criminal justice is being frustrated and crippled because law
enforcement agencies are underpaid, undermanned and undertrained. Four of
that Commision's general findings are particularly pertinent:
We still have too few police, too often underpaid and ill-trained, with too
many duties unrelated to crime; many police forces are ill-equipped to cope
either with crime or collective violence; and the conduct of some exacerbates
community tensions and sparks disorders.
Our courts are still understaffed and mired in an enormous backlog of
cases; persons awaiting trial either remain at large on bail for protracted
periods, during which many commit additional crimes, or else they are de-
tained in jails for long periods of time without having been found guilty of
a crime.
Our correctional system still lacks the trained manpower, the programs,
and the physical facilities deserving of the name "correctional"; as now con-
stituted it seems as likely to produce as to correct criminals.
The technological revolution which has affected nearly every aspect of our
life has largely by-passed law enforcement; the principal reason is the low
priority we as a people have placed on crime prevention research compared
to other technological goals.
These findings have not gone unheeded. Title I of the Omnibus Crime Control
and Safe Streets Act of 1968 bears witness to the growing public recognition that
state and local agencies dealing with crime indeed suffer from `all of these inade-
quacies and that federal assistance to the states and localities is required to re-
pair them. Title I of the new Act establishes the Law Enforcement Assistance
Administration in the Department of Justice and authorizes it to make planning
grants to a state for the preparation of comprehensive plans for the improvement
of the state's criminal justice system. The emphasis during this first year of the
Administration's existence is on the planning function. After a state plan has
been completed and approved, the Administration is authorized to make action
grants to strengthen state and local law enforcement capabilities in accordance
with the plan. The new Act also provides for the establishment of a national center
fur research into the causes of crime and their remedies, and it authorizes crea-
tion of programs of academic assist'ance for the benefit of law enforcement
personnel.
Against this `background of national study `and planning for the future, the
Task Force is endeavoring to contribute constructively to the effort that is now
going forward. Necessary new investments are being made by our `society in its
system of criminal justice. The Task Force is examining how large these invest-
ments should `be and how they can be used profitably. It is also studying possible
administrative and substantive revisions of our `legal system that might make it a
more effective deterrent to violent conduct without impairing its fairness.
On the second level-how to improve our legal `system to develop greater respect
for law-we start with the proposition that systems of law are most effective
when they are viewed as legitimate by those who live under them. Public order
in a free society cannot rest solely on applications or threats of force by the
authorities. Instead it must rest also on the general disapproval shown by the
community toward those who violate the law. A member of a juvenile gang, for
PAGENO="0399"
1831
example, is not deterred from crime by the threat of punishment if the illegal
conduct elevates the young man's prestige and status among those whose good
opinion he values. Community disapproval will be expressed only if there is a
widely-shared feeling of the justice and legitimacy of the legal order and of the
society which maintains it. Since a foundation of peaceful order is widespread
respect for the law, the law itself must be worthy of respect. The Task force is
studying attitudes toward law in black urban ghettoes today. It is also examining
the related phenomenon of the habitual adult offender `who may be little influenced
by heavy penalties for further offenses, `because he has already suffered an `appar-
ently irreparable loss of social status and alienation from the community by
reason of his earlier convictions.
If there is a declining sense of respect for the law among large groups of disaf-
fected citizen's groups, defects in the fairness and efficiency of our system of crimi-
nal justice may bear some of the burden of responsibility. Many of these defects
are ones which the President's Crime Commission brought to light and Title I of
the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act makes a start toward correcting.
The Task Force is studying other potential methods of improvement, and the size
and direction of the investments required to achieve significant results.
The Task Force is also examining other elements of our legal system whose
conduct has a profound impact upon respect for law. It is devoting particular
attention to the police and to the extent of the force which police use in restoring
order . or in making an arrest. The Task Force is studying police tactics both
in large demonstrations and in day to day law enforcement in the ghettoes of
our cities.
The policeman's job of maintaining order and preserving the peace is one of
the most difficult in society; he exercises an enormous, fateful discretion in emo-
tional and often dangerous situations. The policeman may find himself today,
as the Kerner Commission observed, on the grinding edge of conflict between
various groups in society. There are enormous pressures and provocations which
he must handle with uncommon care. If police react with excessive force to these
pressures, they destroy the moral authority of society's agencies of control.
Respect for law is also eroded when the law has a differential impact on the
poor and the disadvantaged as compared to other elements of society. The criminal
justice system can then be perceived as being "stacked against" the poor, the
black, and the uneducated, who are more likely than other defendants to be held
in jail awaiting trial because they cannot make bail, or to be sentenced after trial
to a correctional institution which does not correct, rather than returned to their
community on probation. The solution to the bail problem may be much speedier
trials, as well as the appropriate use of release on personal recognizance; the
solution to the sentencing problem may be better rehabilitative resources in
institutions, as well as careful use of probation. Whatever the solutions, the
`problem of differential treatment of the disadvantaged in the criminal justice sy.s-
`tern is a serious one that is receiving the Task Force's close attention.
Disadvantaged groups and many students of our legal system claim that the law
fails to provide effective, affirmative redress for invasions of the legal rights of
the poor and, powerless. We are studying the basis of such contentions-for ex-
ample, the claimed inadequacy of police protection for the poor. The Kerner
Commission reported that a major complaint of ghetto residents is the apparent
failure of the law enforcement apparatus to provide adequate police protection
in the ghetto. There is some reason to believe that the police-rationing their
limited manpower and facilities-maintain less rigorous standards of law en-
forcement in `the ghetto, tolerating there activities such as narcotics traffic that
they would not tolerate elsewhere and failing to respond to calls `for help with the
same urgency as in white areas.
Another area in which the law may fail the disadvantaged is the matter of
practil~al, available civil remedies for abusus `by landlords and exploitative mer-
chants and `for inaction or denial of rights by public officials. The studies of `the
Task Force suggest `that our system has generally not performed this function
very well. While the expense of legal counsel, the existence of procedural ob:sta~
cl~s, the slowness of the `civil justice system, and other l'ike factors are frustrating
for all `classes of citizens, `they fall with special impact on the disadvantaged who
have the greatest need for legal protection. For the poor the rule of law may be
seen `as one-sided and oppressive. Making legal `services widely available t'o the
poor can in fact be an important part of `the `strategy of public order, for if `the
disadvantaged `have little or no affirmative access to the courts, they may resort
to other, more violent solutions of their problems.
PAGENO="0400"
1832
The Task Force is also studying the question of whether the legal system fails
the black community in enforcing the School Segregation Uaaes. If segregation is
permitted to exist, then the `law may well appear to many of the victims of segre-
gation as powerless to achieve what justice and the Constitution require.
There are `also broader social and political conditions which may have a partic-
ular effect on respect for law. The Task Force on Law and Law Enforcement is
considering how respect for law may `be affected by certain aspects of the political
process `such as the age requirements for voting, the convention system, political
contribution practices, Congressional procedures, and the increasing concentration
of decisionmaking power `in larger government and quasi-government entities.
Testimony before the Commission suggests that these are all focal points of
criticism by many who, rightly or wrongly, are dissatisfied with the present gov-
ernmental process.
`The' Task Force is `also giving attention to the hypothesis that a relationship
exists `between the lack of respect for domestic law and the weakness of the rule
of `law in international affairs. It `is further considering whether disrespect for
iaw among y~oung people may be affected by the existence and patterns of enforce-
ment of some criminal laws which prohibit `types of personal conduct in which
large numbers of ordinary `citizens take part, such as `the laws against gambling,
certain consensual sexual acts, and the use of `milder narcotics.
Finally, the Task Force on Law and Law Enforcement has been studying one
of the most perplexing types of disrespect for law-the idea that unlawful and
perhaps even violent conduct is justified for the purpose of achieving a political
goal. This view is shared and often acted on by many students, black citizens, and
other groups pressing for social change in America today.
This view embraces far more than lawful methods of protest, such as the rights
of petition and peaceable assembly guaranteed by the First Amendment. It goes
beyond the violation of laws for the purpose of making a court test of their
validity, such as laws or regulations forbidding peaceful assemblies, laws requir-
ing segregation, or the use of the general trespass laws to enforce a public policy
of segregation. This method of appealing to a higher law to invalidate a lower
l'aw through a "test" case is a manifestation of respect for and faith in the legal
processes of society.
A quite different problem is presented. however, when some advocates of social
change purposely violate laws, not to challenge the validity of those laws, but
rather to express' their objection to some other policy they oppose. Examples are
the blocking of streets the seizure and occupation of buildings, or the destruction
of property, not to challenge the validity of the laws prohibiting such conduct,
but `to protest against some unrelated policy of the existing social order.
It may be conceded that many of those who engage in such conduct believe
they are performing acts of conscience to achieve a better social order. Thoreau,
Gandhi, and the suffragettes were widely admired for the peaceful practice of this
tradition and for their willingness-indeed their eagerness-to accept the conse-
quences of being jailed for their offenses.
But despite the bravery and sincerity that distinguish it, conscientious dissent
must always compete against another value that makes dissent itself possible and
potentially fruitful-the value of an orderly, representative society in which the
rights of all are defined and enforced by law.
The Task Force is examining the legal and moral arguments on both sides of
this controversy and is considering the kinds of official response which are ap-
propriate. The Commission has heard testimony from student protest leaders who
defend the legitimacy of such violent law-breaking, and who urge that the right-
ness of the ends they seek and the "illegitimacy" of the present social order entitle
them to oppose both prosecution and punishment. It has also heard a distinguished
academician say that from the standpoint of the social order it is unwrise to
prosecute and punish every act of civil disobedience.
The subject is a complex one, and shades of distinction between particular types
of conduct may be critical. Set forth below are some of the hypotheses that have
been advanced in an effort to isolate the relevant issues.
There may be a difference between unlawful conduct that risks no injury or
other harm to the public at large, and conduct which does risk such injury. Per-
haps illegal sexual relationships between consenting adults risk no injury to the
public, and such adults may claim a moral right to violate the law-s against these
practices. But clearly no one can logically assert a moral right to rape women
in order to protest the laws against forcible rape.
There may be a difference between unlawful acts of protest when committed
by people who are denied the right to vote or to engage in peaceful protest, and
PAGENO="0401"
1833
when committed by voting members of a free and democratic society that guar-
antees the rights of lawful protest for all. By this standard, the followers of
Gandhi and the suffragettes would fall on one side of the line, while American
citizens who have an effective right to vote would fall on the other.
Those who would violate valid laws to win rights they are now denied must
stop to consider bow those rights can be preserved in a society where their op-
ponents are free to follow the same cours~. One must ask whether any society can
survive if its members rely on genuine disobedience to law as a source of political
energy.
Those who believe in the rule of law cannot rest content with condemning those
whose conscience commands them to defy the law. Law itself must be responsive
to social change and to the correction of injustice. Our legal system has not yet
corrected the injustices our society inflicts on minority groups, nor has it de-
vised an acceptable method of permitting individuals to choose conscientiously
not to fight in particular wars. Resolution or bitterly divisive issues like these
is admittedly difficult, but it is not beyond us. If respect for law is to sustain the
social order, we need to sharpen the ability of the law to clear the paths to peaceful
change.
EXHIBIT No. 3
[From the St. Louis Post Dispatch, Feb. 11, 19G9J
LAWYERS TURNING TO AID TO POOR
(By James C. Millstone, a Washington Correspondent of the Post-Dispatch)
WASHINGTON, Feb. 11-From New England to California, America's young
lawyers and law students are building the momentum that is driving their
slow-moving profession toward the empty but beckoning arms of the unrepre-
sented poor.
Only in recent years has the legal profession acknowledged that it never really
has served the needs of vast numbers of persons who have little money and multi-
ple problems. And only in recent years have newcomers to the profession begun
to protest against that omission.
Law professors, private practitioners, recent graduates and others close to the
situation now have become increasingly aware of a growing trend: More and
more good young lawyers not only want-but are demanding-a chance to work
with the poor.
One man who has seen it is William Klaus, a partner in Pepper, Hamilton and
Scheetz, one of Philadelphia's largest law firms.
"Fifteen years ago," he said, "the best thing that could happen to a Harvard law
School graduate was to get into one of the top 10 firms. Now these young men will
bargain with you. They want to know bow much free time you'll give them to work
with the poor.
The Old-Line Wall Street firms are feeling the pinch. Traditionally the mecca
for the nation's top law students, Wall Street has been forced to recruit inten-
sively to keep young blood flowing. Even a 50 per cent increase in starting
salaries-from $10,000 to $15,000-has not solved the problems of Wall Street
firms to re-establishing themselves with the graduates.
John M. Ferren was graduated from Harvard Law School in 1962. He quickly
accepted a position with Chicago's largest law firm.
"It wouldn't have occurred to me to do anything else," Ferren said. "But after
a year and a half, I began to feel very empty. I was cranking out loan agreements
and stock registration statements. I couldn't find any real interest in what I
was doing, helping the giant corporations.
"I began to think, `What am I doing here?'"
Today, Ferren is director of the Harvard Legal Services Program, a law
office staffed by four full-time lawyers and 120 law students to help the poor in
the Cambridge, Mass., area. It is funded by the Office of Economic Opportunity.
The OEO program, founded four years ago, has been a major catalyst in the
movement of the law toward the poor. For the first time, resources were provided
to enable the legal profession to work with poor people where they lived. And,
at the same time, the OEO opened new employment opportunities for the new
breed of socially aware young lawyers.
The appeal of the OEO program to law students cannot be overstated. In effect,
it has given the private law firms a run for their money in attracting the best
young legal brains in the nation.
E. Clinton Bamberger, the first director nf the Legal Services Program and
now a partner in Baltimore's biggest law firm, Piper and Marbury, said that the
27-754-69-pt. 3-26
PAGENO="0402"
1834
kind of lawyer who used to apply for a job at the firm was precisely the kind
now going into antipoverty work.
"He buttons his collar down," Bam'berger said. "His ties are striped. He went
to Harvard and made Law Review. But he didn't apply to us. He went to OEO."
Ferren told how the program captured the imaginations of Harvard students
from the very beginning.
"When this program opened up in the fall of 1966," he related, "I scheduled an
explanatory meeting and signed up for a room big enough to seat 100 students. I
thought maybe I was too optimistic. Well, I had to get another room because 300
students showed up. There is a fantastic interest in this program, and it has in-
creased since it started. We can't accommodate all the students who want to work
in the program."
The latest piece of evidence showing the wellspring of interest among law stu-
dents in antipoverty work was the response to a modest OEO recruiting campaign
for applicants for the Reginald Heber Smith fellowship program. For Smith fel-
lows, the Government takes outstanding law graduates or young practitioners,
gives them five weeks of special training in poverty law and sends them to work
for a year in a neighborhood law office. Fellows are paid at least $9500 a year.
In the first years 250 persons applied for Smith fellowships. Last year there
were 500 applications. This year, 1200 applications came in, meaning that about
one of every 15 new law graduates in the United States wanted to get into the
antipoverty program. Harvard had 72 applicants, mOre than 10 percent of its
graduating class. Yale University had 38, the University of Chicago 29, the LTni~
versity of Michigan 43, and Stanford University 25.
The quality of the applicants was uniformly high. One third were in the top
quarter of their class and 160 of them were in the upper tenth. Twenty-two ap-
plicants were either first or second in their class. Several law professors and one
assistant dean applied. So did law clerks for three judges of the Mississippi
Supreme Court.
Michael J. Davis, 26 years old, was graduated from the University of Michigan
Law School in 1967. The Smith fellowship program turned out to be exactly what
he was looking for.
"There weren't very many channels available for poverty work, and that's what
an awful lot of us want to do," Davis said. "Most of the jobs were as staff at-
torneys in legal aid and offices. That meant very low salaries and pretty dull work.
"This program trained you well, paid you well and assured you of a chance to
get into a lot of the more interesting aspects of the law."
Davis was one of the first 50 Smith fellows. He spent a year working with the
poor in Kansas City and now has graduated into a post with the Legal Services
Program in OEO headquarters here. He said that even those involved in the Smith
fellowship program were surprised by the tremendous response from law students
this year. Because only 250 fellowships can be given, Burt Griffin, Legal Services
program director, is trying to find a way to use the talents of most of the other
applicants in neighborhood law offices.
Peter L. Wolff, assistant to the executive director of the Association of Amer-
ican Law Schools, said that OEO officials "shouldn't have been surprised" at the
big response.
"Anybody connected with legal education wouldn't be surprised," he said. "Stu-
dents have provided the impetus for the whole development of poverty law. They
don't care about going to the big, fancy law firms any more. They are concerned
with doing a different kind of work."
One result, Wolff said, is that poverty courses in law schools have increased
by 10 times in the last *two years. This development is portending important
changes in legal education, he `said.
"You don't really have to learn commercial law the `standard way," Wolff said.
"The type of thinking we are trying to instill is valid if clients are rich or poor."
In fact, Wolff said, the "sense of involvement in society" being demonstrated
by so many of today's students "will make them `better lawyers."
Not just `the law schools are reacting to the demands of youth. The competition
for `the best young men is forcing the established private law firms to re-examine
their policies in serving the poor. The bait of higher starting salaries is one
response. Another is the increasing willingness of the firms to give young associ-
ates the time to work on projects and cases that generate no fees and bring in
no business.
Students at the Stanford University Law School voted overwhelmingly a few
months ago to find ~ut `in advance what prospective employers had to offer in
the `wray of free time for `work with the poor.
PAGENO="0403"
1835
In a referendum, the students approved by a 4-to-i margin the concept `of send-
ing questionnaires to all law firms scheduling campus interviews with members of
the graduating class. Among the questions: "What opportunities are open to a
young associate in your firm to become involved in activities related to racial
and urban problems? Do you encourage such involvement? How many associates
and partners pa'i~tici~pate in such activities?"
Jack Friedenth'al, professor of law at the school, said that to his knowledge this
was "the first time anything like this was ever done." The questionnaires went
out last October. Friedenthal said that most firms responded that they encouraged
participation in .such `a~riivities and tried to give specific examples.
There is nothing new about the most prominent lawyers in a city serving on
boards `of charitable agencies or holding other civic positions. What is new is the
beginning of a movement by the `best law firms into the `slums, where their facil-
`ities are made available to the poorest element in the community.
For the most part, `that movement is represented by the willingness of firms in
some eities to backstop OEO neighborhood offices. A few firms have gone beyond
that. Two Philadelphia firm's-Pepper, Hamilton and `Scheetz together with Mor-
gan, Lewis and Bockius, with a combined total of 120 lawyers-are manning a
slum law office that was opened last summer. Klaus said that half of his com-
pany's lawyers work at the office at night, `on a voluntary basis, and the firm gives
them whatever `time they need for the work.
In Baltimore, Marbury and Piper is planning to open a slum branch office by the
end of the year, a development that is being watched closely by other firms in
other cities.
Explained Bamberger, "If a law firm like this is going to do more than just
mouth its commitment `to `the community, it has to go where the poor can find it.
You can't do much for ~he poor `on `the ninth floor of the downtown bank building."
Some lawyers `dispute `the thesis that young people are the driving force in the
painfully slow effort to swing legal practice in `the direction of the ghetto. Ferren
and Klaus are not among them.
"The response of `the law firms would never `have happened had not the law
students made this a demand of their employment," Ferren said.
Said Klaus, who as board presiden't `of Philadelphia's Community Legal Services
spends half his `time on the antipoverty program, "T'hi's generation itself has a
greater sense of `social awareness. A goodly number of really competent young
lawyers are going into `this `field. Every major firm i'n this city ha's some kind of
riructure to permit men to do this kind of work."
Klaus views the upsurge of interest among young lawyers in working with the
poor as having a significance far beyond its effect on legal practice.
"These people are going to be a tremendously effective force some day," be said.
"They are goin'g `t'o rise `to `the `top `of `their profession. They'll be the head's of law
firm's; `they'll `be corporate presidents; they'll be in public office.
"Their exposure `to the ill's `of `America won"t `rub off. Nobody who goes to work
in a storefront (law) `office in the slums is going to come out unscathed, and
they're not going t'o forget what they've seen.
"When these men rise to positi'on's of power in `this country, as `they inevitably
will-say 10 years from now-they're going `to have a `tremendous impact on the
nation."
ExHIBIT No. 4
TARGET AREAS OF UNMET LEGAL SERVICES FOR. THE POOR*
METROPOLITAN AREAS OF OVER 100,000 POPULATION HAVING NO ORGANIZED LEGAL
AiD SERVICES. COMBINED POPULATION OVER TWO MILLION
119,442 Glendale, California 143,000 Asheville, North Carolina
441,000 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 170,000 Steubeuville, Ohio
339,000 East Moline, Illinois 137,000 Altoona, Pennsylvania
191,617 Joliet, Illinois 818,650 Memphis, Tennessee
130,000 Anderson, Indiana 157,000 Galveston, Texas
117,000 Muncie, Indiana 715,409 Norfolk, Virginia
167,000 Terre Haute, Indiana 281,000 Wheeling, West Virginia
159,000 Lexington, Kentucky 137,000 Green Bay, Wisconsin
271,546 Jackson, Mississippi
* Source-National Legal Aid and Defender Association.
PAGENO="0404"
1836
CITIES OF 71,000 TO 100,000 POPULATION HAVING NO ORGANIZED LEGAL AID SERViCES
103,545 Cedar Rapids, Iowa 79,673 St. Joseph, Missouri
95,796 Davenport, Iowa 95,865 Springfield, Missouri
89,159 Sioux City, Iowa 105,722 Raleigh, North Carolina
99,942 Fall River, Massachusetts 89,258 Hampton, Virginia
92,107 Lowell, Massachusetts 83,627 Huntington, West Virginia
87,409 Quincy, Massachusetts
CITIES OVER 100,000 POPULATION HAVING NO ORGANIZED LEGAL AID SERVICES
116,779 Columbus, Georgia
113,662 Newport News, Virginia
144,773 Portsmouth, Virginia
CITIES HAVING NO ORGANIZED LEGAL AID SERViCES (BUT HAVING A VOLUNTEER BAR
ASSOCIATION ASSISTA NCE~PROGRAM)
202,779 Mobile, Alabama
134,393 Montgomery, Alabama
14,757 Chico, California
90,368 Abilene, Texas
51,230 Tyler, Texas
34,688 Bellington, `~\Tashington
43,284 Yakima, \\Tashington
45,110 Oshkosh, Wisconsin
and, almost all of Appalachia
I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and with your permission I would ask
Mr. Theodore Voorhecs to speak for the National Legal Aid & De-
fender Association. He has a brief statement.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead Mr. Voorhees.
STATEMENT OF THEODORE VOORHEES, PAST PRESIDENT,
NATIONAL LEGAL AID & DEFENDER ASSOCIATION
Mr. VOORHEES. Mr. Chairman, I also was enormously heartened by
your statement of your recognition of the very important role that the
legal services program is playing in the overall proverty law.
I was president of the National Legal Aid & Defender Association
in 1965 when the legal services program was first sta.rted.
It is an understatement to say that there was very, very considerable.
misgiving about this program, not only among members of the pro-
fession generally but within the ranks particularly of our National
Legal Aid Association.
We have been serving the poor providing them with representation
for more than 50 years.
There was great question as to what might happen to our effort if
the Government should pick the program up for a year or so and then
drop it. Of course, there was also worry about what type of service the
poor would receive when a bureaucratic or perhaps socialistic program
was instituted.
But my main contribution here today is to assure you that those mis-
givings have all been completely wiped away. From the start the OEO
legal services program accepted the standards and the traditions of the
legal profession and the whole progra.m has been on a very high plane
right from the beginning.
Instead of being kind of pushed out of the picture, as some of us
feared our legal paid efforts would be, OEO has supported and
PAGENO="0405"
1837
strengthened a great many of our programs. Of the total of 265 legal
services programs now in `operation, approximately one-half of them,
or 130, are former legal aid programs which have been supported `by
Government funds.
So that we have a continuity here of a long, long program which
has been `building up over the years. Also, the legal services program
was enormously strengthened, in our opinion, `by the setting up of the
advisory committee `and that has represented the bar and it has repre-
sented a lot of professional legal aiders with enormous background
experience.
Mr. Shriver and Mr. Bamberger and the other heads of the legal
services program have given great `consideration to the views o'f the
law and the legal aid `organization in the shaping up of the program
of the bar.
Now I want to stress two points which have `been `brought out force-
fully by Mr. Segal in his `statement.
First, I think that it is tremendously important for your committee
to realize that lengthening the fixed program, giving us more `assurance
that from year to year these services that are in operation you can
count on the fact that they are going to have continuity, that would
enormously strengthen the overall program.
It is devastating experience to try to organize and carry on a law
office if you `are constantly worried `by the fact that your money man
run out at the end of the year.
You cannot plan ahead, you lose your best men, and the whole opera-
tion is demoralized.
If Congress will give us more assurance that it recognizes the im-
portance of legal services and that they are going to continue, I think
that that would be a very, very great step in advancement.
Chairman PERKINS. You are suggesting that if we could place a for-
ward funding provi'sion in the law that you would know how to plan
for the future?
Mr. VOORIIEES. Exactly. We just h'ad a very, very bitter experience in
Philadelphia where our defender organization that had over a period
of 3 or 4 years `built up a tremendous staff of about seven or eight law-
yers up to 35 lawyers and it hired really first-rate men `and then sud-
denly the city began withdrawing assurance that we would have funds
over and `beyond the first of the year.
Our staff just `started to melt away like snow in the spring `because
there was no assurance of continuity.
The other point I would like to stress is adequate funds. At the
present time, 2,000 lawyers'are spending their full time in providing
legal services for persons in `the poverty classification.
That is said to number 34 `million Americans. That averages out to
one lawyer for every 17,000 people. Obviously, it is just totally made-
quate.
We are encouraged that the administration is upping the amount of
the money that will `be forthcoming in the next fiscal year.
Chairman PERKINS. Do you have 25 percent adequate funds? To
what extent are you underfunded?
Mr. VOORIIEES. In our statement we have `suggested that one-fifth of
`the'total population of the poverty areas are being served.
So, y'ou can take that and multiply it by five.
Chairman PERKINS. About 20 percent, that is your best judgment?
PAGENO="0406"
1838
Mr. VOORHEES. About 20 percent.
Chairman PEn~INs. That is your best judgment?
Mr. SEGAL. Yes, I would say at this moment the absolute floor that
would permit us to go ahea.d, you can't reach everybody immediately,
would be a $90 million appropriation.
Chairman PE~xINs. Go ahead.
Mr. VOORHEES. We have come down in the past and asked for $90
million and we will come down in the future and ask for still more
and this may not be the proper occasion, your committee may not be
concerned immediately with the amounts that the program shoulc[
have, but I think that all of us who are so tremendously concerned with
the force of the legal services program will have to take every possible
opportunity to urge the Congress to give us more money.
Thank you very much.
Chairman PERKINS. Tha.nk you.
Go ahead, Mr. Segal.
Mr. SEGAL. Mr. Chairman, I believe it would be appropriate to next
hear from a man who has been devoting a vast amount of his time to
this problem, the chairman of the American Bar Association Standing
Committee on Legal Aid and Indigent Defendants, Mr. John D. Rob'b.
Chairman PERKINS. Go right ahead. He has been here before and we
are delighted to welcome you back.
STATEMENT OP IOHN D. ROBB, CHAIRMAN, AMERICAN BAR
ASSOCIATION COMMITTEE ON LEGAL AID AND INDIGENT DE-
PENDANTS
Mr. ROBB. Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman. This is my third appearance be-
fore the committee.
I have been privileged to address remarks to the committee on three
prior occasions. I must say, though, that I have never had to work
under such disadvantageous circumstances in my appearances before
because I am appearing today not just behind one but behind two
Philadelphia lawyers.
I would like to emphasize, Mr. Chairman, another aspect of legal
services.
Mr. Segal and the other organizations in the prepared statement
have emphasized the deep impact that the legal services program is
having on the law of poverty, on problems affecting the poor people,
also references have been made that the preventive aspect of legal
services is helping to prevent crime and violent outbreaks such as we
have had.
I would like to suggest that the original basis for the rendering of
legal services, even before the concept of the poverty program, remains
just as strong a reason for its continuance and expansion as it did be-
fore, and that is the fact that all persons under our constitutional sys-
tem are entitled to equal justice and equal access to the courts under
law.
So we have a very broad kind of base, it seems to me, for legal services
that transcends even the bounds of the poverty program, itself.
I would like to also stress the law reform aspects of the program.
Candor requires me to state that not all of the programs have been
PAGENO="0407"
1839
successful in mount~n~ a law reform program, that is in effecting
changes in statutes and decisions that operate particularly unfair on
the poor.
This is without question the `toughest part of the program. It is hard
to change the longstanding rules of law that people have come to accept
as fair.
It is hard to change attitudes of people. This is a very difficult con-
cept to come to grips wi'th `and we are working `closely with various
legal aid projects to accomplish this.
But let me just single out one of them th'at happened here just 2
weeks ago that I think is perhaps the most dramatic illustration of
what can be done by an aggressive series of legal services proj ects. I
refer to the `Supreme `Court decision outlawing the residency require-
ments which have stood in the way of giving welfare benefits to people
who `were called transien'ts, that is, people who had not established `a
sufficient period `of time in the community, a very, very difficult area,
an area of great distress among poor people.
Those requirements were swept away as a result of some 12 different
suits that were filed by legal services agencies `all over the country re-
sulting in ~some eight different decisions by courts of appeals and
finally reaching the ultimate Court, the Supreme Court.
The plights of literally millions of our poor people are going to be
alleviated by that one decision alone `and that one decision alone will
save these people in misery many times the legal services budget' ap-
propriated `since the beginning of the program.
I `also would like to say that the bar and private sources have a very
substanti'al investment in the legal services program. I think this is
the point `that the Congress should be aware of.
We are not just coming to the Congress and saying you ought to vote
more `money, this is your baby. We have put in a great deal of time.
My own estimate, and it is a rough estimate, to be sure, `because we
don"t have any `definite statistics to back it up, but based on a pretty
informed view, informed check, I would say that today approximately
$15 million a year are being contributed by lawyers in support of this
program, either in direct service to clients or serving on boards or
agencies helping to get grants started `and the like.
In addition, $8 million in cash is going into the program from pri-
vate sources.
So that approximately 50 cents `for every dollar and a half that is
being put into the program by the Government, approximately 50 cents
is going in from private sources.
I think this indicates a very broad measure of support for this pro-
gram from private sources.
I would also like to emphasize the broad nature of the program.
We are `trying to provide services through these legal aid agencies
and legal service agencies for all kinds of problems of the poor so
that they can really say that these lawyers are their lawyers.,
We are encouraging them to take on everybody from the corner
apppliance dealer who sells a `shoddy appliance set to General Motors.
We are encouraging legal services organizations to take on every-
body from the social worker who unlawfully denies a welfare benefit
to a person all the way to the Department of Health, Education, and
PAGENO="0408"
1840
Welfare, itself, as was done in a recent decision which knocked out
the residency requirements of the States.
We believe in legal services. We believe in broad-based legal serv-
ices. We are helping in domestic relations, divorce matters, child
custody, adoption matter, social security, helping to get unemployment
benefits, consumer products.
ou mentioned the consumer question at the beginning and the
housmg problem. We are doing great work in the housing field.
Much talk has been given to the terrible housing problems in the
cities, and they are terrible. A great deal has been done, particularly
right here in the District of Columbia, by the National Legal Services
program.
Let me, if I may, though, tell you about a problem that we have in
the Southwest. out in the area where I live, in San Antonio and
Albuquerque, just to give you an illustration of the kind of work that
is being done.
In our area, many of the poor people own their own homes. They
don't live in tenements and ghetto areas. This may seem surprising
but if you would see some of the shacks in which they live, when I
speak of homes I speak of a very modest kind of place where the
families grow up.
In our area we have a problem of many contractors, many fly-by-
night contractors, that come in and sell through glib salesmen con-
tracts for home improvements. They offer liberal terms.
The salesman comes in and sells a roof to a family that needs a
roof for their home. He signs the family up to a $2,500 contract on a
$500 repair job. Sometimes the roof is not put on at all. When it is
put on, often it leaks.
When the poor person tries to get some relief and goes to this fly-by-
night contractor he puts him off, the repairs are not made and he
ultimately goes out of business after 3 or 5 years.
But then the first payment comes due. `What happens? They don't
get the notice from the contractor but they get it from the finance
company.
The finance company says, "We want the payment," and the P°0~
person says, "But the roof is leaking."
The finance company says, "I am sorry, we are a holder in due
course. `We bought this paper. this note that you signed, from the con-
tractor, so we don't care whether your roof is leaking. `We are entitled
to enforce our note."
A suit is brought. Foreclosure is effected. Sometimes the person
loses his home. What is being done about that situation?
The legal aid societies in San Antonio and Albuquerque are sub-
penaing the records of the contractors in court. We are proving that
the finance company had knowledge of this shoddy job by the
contractor.
We are showing that the contractors were using the finance com-
pany's form. `We are proving that that contractor was an agent for the
finance company and, therefore, is responsible for the shoddy job and
we are setting aside these contracts.
We are also taking the contract where too much money has been
charged and invoking the oldtime principle of equity that has not
been used in many years of unconscienSble contracts where too much
money is being spent.
PAGENO="0409"
1841
These are expensive lawsuits. You have to hire a contractor to prove
that the job was not properly done and too much was charged for it.
We are putting those contractors out of business.
When you bring two or three of those cases, that contractor and
other contractors stop that practice. That is just an example in the area
where I live.
Thousands and thousands of additional examples could be presented.
We are also helping in jobs. We are trying to preserve the jobs of
people by protecting them against illegal garnishments.
We are trying to remove discrimination by bringing discriminatory
suits where people have discriminated against people on account of
their race.
In the education field we are protecting people from being illegally
removed from school without hearings. Very often the flimsiest of
evidence is used as an excuse to throw people out of high schoo's.
Heaven knows, we have enough dropouts already without trying to
remove the students that belong in the high schools.
I want to thank you very much for the opportunity of talking to you,
Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. I think Mr. Flagg would
like to address a few remarks to the Chair.
Chairmaii PERKINS. Go ahead, Mr. Segal.
Mr. SEGAL. Our final presentation, Mr. Chairman, will be Mr.
Lewis S. F'lagg III who will be representing the National Bar
Association.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead.
STATEMENT OF LEWIS S. FLAGG III, WASHINGTON BUREAU,
NATIONAL BAR ASSOCIATION
Mr. FLAGG. Mr. Chairman, I thank this committee for affording
me the privilege to speak as a member for the NBA. `The NBA for-
mally is the National Bar Association. Less formally is the Negro Bar
Association.
Prior to coming here in 1962, as an associate solicitor, I resided and
practiced law in the Bedford-Stuyvesant section of Brooklyn. And I
may add that I may soon return there because I have been asked to
make room for a member of the new administration.
My father is a retired judge. He still practices law at the same place.
I lived and went to school in Harlem. So I am familiar with the
ghetto problems and the needs because I am a product of the ghetto.
I `might say above all else there was and still is `a need for substantial
justice. This program commences, and I repeat, this program com-
mences to fill this need.
Now to illustrate, after I had come down here I went back to Brook-
lyn and I was asked by an assistant district attorney how did that
appeal ever come out. I asked him what appeal and he mentioned the
case.
If we pause for just a moment to analyze the implication of that we
find four points. One was this assistant district attorney realized that
there had `been an injustice.
Second, he knew I had laid the foundation for an appeal.
Third, he had nssumed that there was an appeal and; fourth, he
assumed the outcome might well `have been different.
PAGENO="0410"
1842
I told him I was unaware of any appeal because I had gone to Wash-
ington and I felt that the individual did not have the money to pursue
this appeal.
I had been assigned counsel, I had served without fee, and this man
was denied justice because of the fact he did not have money.
The legal profession had let this man down and in fact all of us had
denied to him his full measure of justice and this program is a mile-
stone on the path to full justice.
Now there are black attorneys who are employed in this program and
the black communities benefit greatly by this program for the message
that there is justice for all is the most direct line to the ghetto citizens.
Now you have heard the experts in this area. so I won't belabor the
point further but I would like to urge this committee to assist in fully
implementing this program.
I thank you very much.
Mr. SEGAL. Mr. Chairman, you have been very patient. We are most
grateful to you and the members of the committee.
Chairman PERKINS. Let me thank the entire panel. You have `been
most helpful to the committee. I am sure that the committee will do
just what you state, fully implement the program at the earliest
possible date.
Now the only question t:hat I have is this: Throughout the country
is there still much criticism from the local bar associations concerning
the selection of the lawyers? Or `has that pretty well subsided?
Mr. ROBB. Are you referring to the question of whether the lawyers
should be furnished as full-time staff lawyers to the legal aid society?
Chairman PERKINS. Yes.
Mr. ROBB. I would say that the record is spotty. In most areas of
the country the full-time staff lawyer from the legal aid agency and
particularly from your urban centers has come to be accepted by the
local bars, by and large, as the most effective and efficient means of
rendering that service.
In many of your rural areas, in some areas of the `South and :South
west and some~
`Chairman PERKINS. That is where you had the greatest criticism
along that line?
Mr. ROBB. Yes, sir, that is right. That certainly comes from a minor-
ity of the local bar associations. I can't say that there has `been any
resolution of that problem.
I think the ones w~ho felt before that the judicare is the :b~t method
of doing it, I can't honestly say I think there has been any change in
that. `bu't `those definitely reprosent a minority of the views of the local
bar associations with which I am familiar.
Mr. SEGAL. I would be a little more encouraging, Mr. Chairman,
from my more recent observation. I have just come from a series of
speeches in the South and the Southwest. I have talked with lawyers
from these smaller communities and I think that there is a greater
appreciation and I am a little more optimistic than Mr. R~bb from my
very recent observations.
I agree, of course, that not only in rural areas but in smaller com-
munities `there is a segment of the bar who feels affronted and per-
sonally affected adversely by the development but that is a reducing
number.
PAGENO="0411"
1843
I think what is more significant is that the enthusiasm of the Inaj or-
ity is mounting at a `pretty rapid rate.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead, Mr. Pucinski.
Mr. PuCINSKI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Segal, I agree with you. The legal services program has `provided
a great deal of assistance to people in the cities I have visited and I am
very much impressed with what you are `doing.
When you look at the entire poverty program it has done a good job,
but there are exceptions and as always `the exceptions get the greatest
attention and bring `discredit on the whole program.
Legal services has not escaped that kind of criticism. A criticism
that I have heard of legal services is that one reason why it does not
have a recruiting program is because most of the young men coming
out of law school who go into `legal services get a deferment from the
selective service.
Do you have any figures on how many of these young men have been
deferred?
Mr. ROBB. No, we don't. We know that some have, but my impression
is that it is a relatively small number.
Mr. SEGAL. One of the answers to that is that the number of young
men whom I have personally talked with, who are married and have
children and have gone into the program and couldn't be interested
in deferment-undoubtedly, there are some as you indicate-in my
judgment, from talking with the young men in the services and also
in the law schools, while this is an objective of some, it is a minority
and it can't be the objective of many who have deferments and some
of whom have had their service.
Mr. PUCINSKI. What relationship is there between the local bar asso-
ciation and the legal services agency in a community?
Mr. Sr~oAL. I will let Mr. Bobb talk. with that' because he has lived
with it, sir.
Mr. ROBB. It varies considerably from community to community.
The statute, of course, requires that before any program can be funded
or refunded, the proposal must be submitted to the local `bar, the
principal local bar association `and the bar association of the State
for their comments.
So the bar is involved from the inception of the program in com-
menting on the program to OEO. After that time, then, the bar usually
has a connection with the legal services program, a formal connection
in several ways. -
It is quite customary for the bar to have representatives as such of
the bar association on the legal services board which administers the
program.
Also, there is the lawyer referral service which refers clients who
are not quite eligible, who make `a little more money than they are
entitled to make and still be serviced under these programs; we work
closely with them to see that these people get handled through private
lawyers when they are referred.
Mr. PuoINsKI. These private lawyers get paid; do they not?
Mr. ROBB. Yes, sir. That is for people who are not eligible for this
program.
Mr. PUGINSKI. Years ago the bar association used to provide that
service through the local legal aid for nothing.
PAGENO="0412"
1844
Mr. ROBB. Used to handle people who could pay a. fee for nothing?
Mr. PucINsKr. No. Years ago the local bar association would pro-
vide the legal service, a legal aid service, and they would provide legal
assistance to the indigent with no compensation. Is that correct?
Mr. IR0BB. Well, the way it was handled in most of your urba.n areas
was t.hat there was a legal aid society that was not necessarily run by
the ba.r association.
Sometimes it was, sometimes it was not. Usually sa.laried lawyers
were being provided and the cost of that was paid largely through
community chests and councils in the local community.
Then another area., we had volunteer panels of lawyers, perhaps that
is what you are talking about, in the smaller areas where the ba.r asso-
ciation would take people who could not afford the fee and lawyers
would handle those as charity cases.
Mr. PuCINsKI. What is the difference bet.ween the local legal aid or
the local legal service and VISTA in terms of their working with
VISTA?
Mr. ROBB. There is no formal relationship. What has happened is
that many of these young men going into VISTA have expressed a
preference to get involved in legal services because some .of them have
bee.n to law school, some of them are actually law school gra.duates.
As a result, they receive some training through VISTA and in co-
operation with the legal services program, explaining to them what
the program is all about.
And then sometimes they are assigned to do work that is closely
related with the lega.l services program.
Mr. P~cINsKI. `Do you think it is a proper function for either legal
services or VISTA to be advising high school students that they have
a constitutional right to strike if they wish or to crea.te turmoil?
Is this what we set up as legal services? I happen to be a. great
supporter of legal services, but is this the function of legal services?
Mr. ROBB. I think it is; yes, sir, I don't think students have any. less
rights than anyone else. I don't suggest that student.s should be violent.
I don't suggest that they have the right to go and tie up campuses and
deny others the right of education.
What I do suggest is that like a.ny other citizen in our society they
have a right for a lawyer t.o come there and `tell them what the extent
of their rights is, what the extent of the right of peaceful dissent is.
I would say that lawyers are contributing a great deal in the areas
where .they are involved `because they are advising `the students on what
the limits of those rights are and helping to prevent campus turmoil.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Quie.
Mr. QUIE. Let me a.sk you, first, how the programs are operating
with the legal services projects. In some cases, legal services are a part
of the community action agency, the community action agency hires
the attorney. In some cases, they are a group which is the delegate
agency of `the community action agency. In some cases, is there direct
funding from OEO to the legal services project without going through
the community action agency?
And `if so, in the 265 programs, how do they operate? Break it down
that way.
Mr. R.OBB. I don't have the exact figures on this. The overwhelming
number of agencies are separate organizations from the community
PAGENO="0413"
1845
action program. They are set up normally as separate corporations.
Usually, about a third of the board is made up of representatives from
the poor neighborhoods.
Usually, about two-thirds of the rest `of the board is made up of
lawyers. I believe there may be one or two, just a very few that are
actually run `by the community action agency itself.
We very much discourage that. We think that the board ought to be
separate and independent in ord'er to `help preserve that independence
which the lawyer must have when he is advising clients of his rights at
the local level.
On direct funding, I `don't have the information on that. I am told
that some negotiations `are underway for direct funding of the Navajo
legal services program, called DNA, on the Navajo Reservation of
Arizona and New Mexico. I don't know whether or not those arrange-
ments have been completed.
There may be a few others, I `am not certain of that, but they would
be quite few in relation to the number of programs.
Mr. QuJE. `Could you provide the information for the record?
Mr. ROBB. Yes, sir.
Mr. QUIE. Also, on page 9 you mention $5'8 million was earmarked
for legal services. Two years ago, maybe it was 3, `Congress earmarked
money for the various programs. It felt that it was unwise to do so.
I felt `at that time it was unwise to do so for community action. We
ought to leave it versatile. However, OEO has, itself, earmarked for
the special emphasis program.
Do you favor such earmarking or do you think that the money could
be made available from versatile funds `for community action agencies
and they then ma'ke their decision on the amount that goes to the legal
services program?
`Mr. ROBB. We very much favor the earmarking of the funds for
several reasons. ` ` ` `
First of all, we have quite a number of `programs that are engaged in
something more than just rendering `legal services on the local level.
We `have a national `clearinghouse type of function that would not be
attributable to any l'ocal community.
You could not expect the local community to make that decision.
We perform the function, or the legal services program does, of train-
ing lawyers. They have training institutes. They have a housing in-
stitute to focus national attention on housing problems.
So, as part of the national emphasis program we have a national
recruiting service that is maintained through OEO for lawyers.
So there are a lot of good reasons I think for earmarking funds so
that strong professional direction can be given to the program. So that
in a program that has very strong professional aspects to it that you
can be certain that the guidelines are adequately and appropriately
enforced.
So we would very much favor earmarking of funds for the legal
servi'ces program either by the Congress or administratively as a
percent in the President's budget as I understand it at this time for the
$58 million.
Mr. QUIE. You say that some community action agencies provide
the attorney to provide individual legal services.
In these cases, does the money come from versatile funds rather
than earmarked money for legal services?
PAGENO="0414"
1846
Mr. Bonn. I am not familiar with just how that is handled because
as I say. it is a very rare circumstance. I am not sure what. the details
will be in that unusual circumstance.
Mr. QUIE. Has there ever been the case where the need for legal
services was strong enough so that more money than the required
matching has been put up by the local community in order to fund
legal services?
Mr. ROBB. Oh, yes, in many areas. That often has resulted from the
donation of lawyers' time. You see, lawyers services are given credit.
They are not given as much credit as they should get but the OEO
allows $16 an hour for the time that is being contributed by lawyers,
which is way below the minimum fee schedules in almost every part
of the country.
Mr. QuIE. Has any local community raised their own revenue to
fund that from local revenue sources?
Mr. ROBB. A few but normally the lion's share is made up by dona-
tion services by attorneys, donated office space, things of this kind.
Mr. :QuIE. Could you pick out the two instances where local revenue
was raised from local property taxes for that so that we could ta.ke
a look at it and the reasons why the demand for legal services to that
extent?
Mr. ROBB. I will be glad to get that information and put it in the
record for you.
(The information to be furnished follows:)
1. The State of Alaska.
2. Nashville, Tenn.
Mr. QuIE. The last thing I want to ask you is this: I understand that
legal services was involved in the court case that finally removed the
residence requirements on welfare cases. Is that correct?
Mr. ROBB. Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. Qmn. Are there any other cases in the courts to remove re.si-
clence requirements ? Or is it only the case of residence requirements
for welfare cases that you are particularly interested in?
Mr. ROBB. Of course, we are interested in all aspects of the law that
operate what we think, what. appears to be at least unfairly on the poor.
where the people have a grievance and they have a constitutional and
other right, we enforce them in the welfare field, inside the welfare
field and outside.
One of the problems in the. welfare field is lack of hearings. For
example. the welfare recipients are sometimes cut off from their bene-
fits simply based on the report of a social worker who often has not
made an adequate investigation, who has the facts wrong, and that
often is done without a hearing and without counsel.
As a result of some lawsuits brought by legal services organizations,
HEW has now recently changed its policies. As of the first of October
it is now requiring that welfare recipients be furnished with counsel at
any of these welfare hearing appeals.
So that those facts can be reviewed and these people can have the
benefit of counsel to see that their rights are protected.
I have the answers, incidentally, to two of your questions supplied
by my staff. I am told that there are 14 direct funded operations; that
is, funded directly by OEO. These are referred to as multicounty
operations.
PAGENO="0415"
1847
The second example of communities that have raised their share in
cash rather than in kind, one was listed as Nashville, Tenn., and the
other. as Alaska.
Mr. QUTE. Thank you.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Erlenborn.
Mr. ERLENBORN. Mr. Robb, it is good to see you here. You have been
an articulate spokesman for the legal services program in the past and
again today.
I recall when you were here once before there was a goo4 deal of
talk about problems in the domestic relations area, sugges bing that
that area was pexhaps receiving, a disproportionate amount of atten-
tion from the legal services program.
How is that today? What portion. of legal services program is in
the area of domestic relations?
* `Mr. ROBB. The percentage remains very close to what it was when
we were here. About 40 percent in domestic relations. Now of that
amount, approxin'iately two-thirds are divorces. In other words, there
are not 40 percent that are dealing with divorces but two-thirds deal
with domestic relation's, family problems.
This means child custody matters, trying to attempt to enforce de-
crease for support of children, adoption proceedings, things of this
kind.
I would say that percentage remains very much the same as it did
when we appeared before you earlier. I am not distressed by the num-
ber of domestic relations cases being handled. I think this is probably
an area where the poor feel their need for relief greatly.
A common situation, for example, in the divorce field, is where the
husband has abandoned the family, he has been gone a year of two.
The family can't qualify for welfare benefits. Often a divorce is neces-
sary so that the family where the husband is not supporting them can
get welfare benefits.
The alternative, if you don't supply divorce in many of these hard-
ship cases, is that another man comes in the family, an illicit relation-
ship is carried on, and a bunch of illegitimate children are born.
We think that is not a healthy and proper family life. So we do not
feel that the number of divorces and the total number of domestic re-
lations cases is really out of proportion to the overall needs of these
poor people.
Mr. SEGAL. Congressman Erlenborn, I would like to add one other
aspect that I have observed and have been greatly concerned with.
That is society's interest.
It is undoubtedly that our crime situation which many people in
Government have referred to as America's No. 1 domestic problem, has
some of its deep root causes in the very type of problems to which you
refer.
Had we had adequate services just in this single field of divorce, so
that families would not have remained broken up and without a male
head, without a support for the family so the mother had to leave the
home, so that the children were left on the streets, there is a substantial
feeling as there was in the President's Crime Commission, that much of
crime `would never have occurred.
So that when we speak, as Mr. Robb has so adequately, of the needs
of the individual, I think we ought to think of that within the frame-
work of the needs of society.
PAGENO="0416"
1848
I believe that if we can provide more help in those domestic rela-
tions, first, to keep those homes where. they have fathers and mothers
in them and; second, not to push the mother to a situation where she
has either a fatherless home or a home with an illicit relationship in
it, this will be one of the aids we will have toward the solution of this
dreadful situation where student crime and youth crime is mounting
in the United States.
Every sociologist and penologist with whom I have spoken starts
with this premise, that the fact that the mother had no adequate source
of legal aid at initiation of the breakup of the relationship with her
husband is one of the bases on which youth crime begins.
Mr. ERLENBORN. I appreciate your answer. I am a little surprised
to hear that the rate is still so high, I think the assumption made when
the legal services program began was that there was a great backlog of
need, services had not been available to the poor and so a great backlog
had built up. I think that you expected in your testimony that the per-
centage would drop quite drastically after the first year or so.
But apparently this was not true, the backlog continues, or the case-
load continues.
Mr. ROBB. That is correct.
Mr. ERLENBORN. Does the legal services program get involved in
the field of interstate enforcement of support orders? That is, the
father who leaves the family and crosses the State line and makes it
more difficult for enforcement of support.
Mr. R0BB. Yes, indeed.
Mr. ERLENBORN. In my former practice, I found that this was a very
difficult thing. Has that improved at all? Are the laws available for
interstate enforcement of those support orders?
Mr. 1R0EB. I am not an expert in that field but to the best of my
knowledge, yes, they are, a good deal of time is spent by the legal
services agencies in trying to obtain support for children whose father
abandoned them.
Many of those involve husbands who cross State lines and go
elsewhere.
Mr. ERLENBORN. Do the legal services lawyers in some way provide
some knowledge of deficiencies in the law? Do they have recommen-
dations for State legislatures and the Congress and do you have any
written material that you might be able to supply us?
Mr. IROBB. I will check to see if we have any written material avail-
able on it. The answer to your question is "Yes."
An important part of the program is in the law reform field, that
Enea.ns law improvement, trying to make improvement in the laws that
most adversely affect the poor or are unfair to the poor.
Approximately 10 percent of the efforts of legal services programs
are now directed in this area.
Mr. ERLENBORN. Thank you.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Steiger.
Mr. STErnER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Segal, if I read the ABA newsletter correctly, you and Mr.
Gossett met with HEW Secretary Finch and Housing and Urban De-
velopment Secretary Romney to discuss the question of the multiplying
of legal services agencies.
Am I correct in that?
PAGENO="0417"
1849
Mr. SEGAL. Congressman, I was to have done so but Mr. `Gossett and
Mr. IRobb visited the Secretary while I visited Seattle, Wash. I will
let Mr Robb answer any questions you have have on that score
Mr. STEIGER. If I read the article in that newsletter correctly, the
purpose of the meeting, Mr. Robb, was to urge a consolidation in OEO
of the programs, one which i's now underway in HEW and One which
has been talked about but as I understand it, has not been implemented
in HTJD.
Am I correctly interpreting what the Bar Association discussed with
Mr. Finch and Mr. Romney?
Mr. ROBB. Consolidation is a little bit too harsh a word. Coordination
is what we urged. A `set of professional standards has been built into
the OEO program. Also, there is a professional, very able staff that
now exists within the OEO program.
It seemed to us to make some sense that in order to preserve a uni-
form set of professional requirements that it would be very helpful if
the OEO legal services program `could serve as the central coordinating
agency and perhaps supply its staff, if necessary, to assist in some of
these' other programs that are just now beginning to get off the ground.
Mr. STEIGER. Would you support an effort to merge the HEW, OEO,
and HTJD legal services programs into one legal services program in
OEO?
Mr. ROBB. I think when they are more mature I think we probably
would. At the moment, you have a problem, I think, in funding. HEW
has access to open-ended appropriations in Congress that make the
legal services program over there most attractive because of the in-
creased ability to supply funding.
We have `been here before the Congress three times now asking for a
minimum budget just to really get the OEO program off the ground
with $90 million.
It has not `fallen on deaf ears. Thi's committee has been very sympa-
thetic to `our requests for the needs of the program, but there has rot
been the money.
The HEW route, on the other hand, is set up, as I understand it, with
an open-ended appropriatiOn from Congress. Congress will match 75
percent of a program if 25 percent is put up by the States.
It seems to me that that is an additional source of revenue that could
be tapped if that program ever gets off the ground.
Incidentally, it is not `swimming yet, and I don't know when it is
going to get off the ground. You are right, the HIJID program is still
in the planning stage.
Mr. STEIGER. If we took that `argnment to its logical extension, then
you would be here supporting transfer of OEO's legal services to
HEW?
Mr. ROBB. I `don't think that. I `think we :are well established `in OEO.
There `i's this problem, too, in HEW. Frankly, there is a real conflict
in interest `in a HEW-funded program if all of the operations are
going to go under it, `because one `of the things we do, as I pointed out
earlier in the hearing, is that we challenge welfare agencies `when they
have violated the law `or the regulations.
That is ~hy we `thin'k legal services really belongs in OEO which has
no such conflicts of interest.
27-754--69-pt. 3-27
PAGENO="0418"
1850
Mr. STEIGER. This is my concern. I am somewhat confused by your
unwillingness to take the step which, to me, makes the most sense, and
that is that you do not create a duplicating legel services program in
HEW.
Mr. SEGAL. `Congressman, may I get into that because Mr. Gossett
and I have given a great deal of thought to the very point you mention.
If we were to look at this in a vacuum, it would appear that ideal-
istically the point you make `is `a very sound one.
The very nature of legal services, its isolation from the basic frame-
work of both agencies actually, would seem to be apparent.
We are confronted now with these strongly practical considerations
to which Mr. iRobb has referred, where does the money come from,
where are the lines well laid, to what extent do the pressures which
descend on Washington originate, and how did they come and to what
extent would they be affected if you had an isolated subject `of legal
services?
Unfortunately, the minute you isolate the lawyer you do alienate
some segments of the populations. If you had an ideal government, I
would say we ought to `have a foundation or some place `where the
proper direction of the legal services, emphasis of them, and control of
them can be placed in professional hands.
One of `the problems we have met is the desire in some `communities
for the poor to have a majority control of legal jrograms.
We have strongly taken the position that this would be a mistake.
I would, therefore, answer your question by saying that idealistically
the result to which you referred would, I think, be the preferable one.
Practically, I feel with Mr. Robb that we are probably not yet at the
point where it is achievable.
Chairman `PERKINS. Mr. Qu'ie.
Mr. Qiiu~. I will yield to my colleague, Mr. Steiger.
Mr. STEIGER. I thank my colleague `for yielding.
Let us `both `agree that we are not at the stage yet ~where we can go
to a totally separate justice foundation or some such alternative as I
frankly think we ought to m'ove to.
That `does not, however, get to my major concern at this point. That
is, if we have thought being given to HUD, more thought has been
given to HEW, and we have an ongoing program in OEO, `how `d'o we
avoid this proliferation of agencies which are providing almost iden-
tically the same service?
What I `am concerned with here is, would there be objection if one
were to propose that we make a consolidation in OEO of the legal
services, the one that exists now in HEW and the one that may be com-
posed in HUD?
Mr. ROBB. Can you assure us of a $200 million `budget if we get
consolidated?
Mr. STEIGER. May I ask you a question: Can you `be assured of a $200
million budget in either OEO or HEW?
Mr. R0BB. I don't really know the answer to that question. The
funding is the real problem at the moment.
Mr. STEIGER. Your concern on funding is one that I have great sym-
pathy with, but isn't that the wrong way to run a government?
Are we here concerned with trying to find those niches and crannies
in which we can get the most money for our program, or are we con-
PAGENO="0419"
1851
cerned more with the quality and effectiveness of the program to be
operated to serve those whom we wish to serve?
Mr. R0BB. Of course, we are concerned, with both. That is the reason
we went to the Secretary, anti that is the reason we asked him to give
close consideration to doing exactly this.
At the moment, I should say there is no duplication. We have suc-
ceeded in getting HEW as part of its guidelines to provide that the
priority kind of funding will be to OEO `legal services agencies.
So that the funds will be going to OEO agencies in the vast majority
of cases. It is only where there is no OEO-funded agency, no legal aid
society, `and no prospect of one, that a new type of program will be
contemplated with. I don't think the duplication will be as serious `as it
might appear in the beginning.
We went to HEW, and this wasas a result of our urging `and' OEO's
urging that this took place.
`Now, we are trying to do the `same thing in HTJD. We are trying to
get a statement of policy out of HTID that `funds that `are to be made
available in the model cities communities will be made available
through an OEO legal services program wherever possible so there will
not be any duplication.
Mr. STErnER. Let us take this another step, then. Would you support
or would you object t'o, either way, a proposal which might conceivably
`aim at lifting legal services out of the community action title of OEO,
of the Economic Opportunity Act, and provide that it shall `be then a
`separate `agency, not necessarily separate title, but separate, distinctive,
operation?
Is there some `sound reason for going that route instead of having it
in the community action, in the Economic Opportunity Act?*
Mr. ROBE. Our answer to the question is "Yes, we would support
such a move."
We have been located as a part of the community action program.
We would frankly like to see legal services set up as a separate, inde-
pendent Legal Services Division within OEO.
Mr. STErnER. If that were to happen, would you still not wish to try
to talk about what you can do to consolidate the HEW program?
Mr. ROBB. Anything we can do to bring them closer together so
there will not be duplications, so that we can take advantage of exist-
ing `staffs and know-how and services that we already have in `OEO,
we would definitely support.
My fear is that if in the process of doing this you cut off the funding
opportunities through HEW and the funding opportunities for the
model cities program you woul'd in effect end up with an OEO program
of `about the same size and have cut off two ripe sources of additional
income.
Not th'at they are immediate sources. They are not going to help us
next year or this year, in our judgment, to any substantial extent.
Whatever this committee and Congress comes up with, the OEO serv-
ices appropriation at this point is what is go'ing to see us through t'he
next 2 years. Three or 4 years from now I expect we w'ill have a
substantial source of funds through HEW and HTJD.
Mr. STEIGER. Has judicare been in existence long enough for an
analysis to have `been made by the bar association as to its viability
and whether or not we ought to continue that experiment?
PAGENO="0420"
1852
Mr. ROBB. Has it been in existence long enough? Probably if you are
referring to Wisconsin?
Mr. STEIGER. Yes, sir.
Mr. IROBB. I think the Wisconsin judicare program has been going
long enough so that the bar could take a look at that program and
perhaps some of the others that have been in existence and come up
with some sort of analysis.
Now we have not actually done that. We have participated with OEO
in itS evaluation of the various judicare programs that are presently
underway. Specifically with regard to Wisconsin. I might say that we
agree with the evaluation of the judicare progra.m made by OEO and
that is that within the framework of the kind of program that it set
out to be that it seems to be operating relatively successfully.
Mr. STEIGER. One last question. Just recently, legal services funded
a program in Milwaukee which was done over the objection of the
local bar association.
Now, is this a pattern which the bar association supports? It would
be my understanding that this runs counter to the pattern which gen-
erally has developed across the country.
Do you have any comment on whether or not that is a good precedent
to have established?
Mr. ROBB. It has been the policy of the American Bar Association
from the beginning, when it first adopted its resolution of supporting
the OEO legal services program, that wherever possible OEO should
tise legal aid societies, legal services agencies and other existing facil-
ities of the organized bar and that this should be done wherever it is
possible and feasible to do so.
The Milwaukee situation is an unfortunate one~ First of all, I should
say they are trying to do different things in this new program than
they are doing in the traditional Milwaukee program.
They are focusing much more sharply on the urban crises and urban
problems in the new program than the Milwaukee legal aid plan has
been doing in the past.
So they are not doing the same things.
The second point I should bring out is the fact that OEO made an
evaluation of the Milwaukee program approximately a year ago.
It found that there were deficiencies in the program that needed
correction.
A member of the National Legal Aid & Defender Association that
Mr. Voorhees is representing here today and which is also an affiliate
of the American Bar Association, was present on that evaluation team
and agreed with the deficiencies in the Milwaukee program.
I would be less than candid if I did not say, sufe, part of OEO's
motivation in funding a separate agency was the fact that there were
these deficiencies and they were not satisfied with the steps to correct
them.
Mr. Sn~IGER. Is it not true that the new legal operation was devel-
oped by those who were attempting to correct deficiencies in the law
as almost its total raison cI'etre?
Mr. ROBB. 1 don't know that that is true. I have not really examined
the funding proposal. I have been involved in it because both sides
have been calling me on the telephone, sending me wires and letters.
PAGENO="0421"
1853
I have been in touch with Mr. Muscowitz, head of the bar associa-
tion, and Julia Dolan, head of the legal aid plan. I have been in this
since last fall. We have taken no position in the controversy. We have
confidence in the way it was handled by OEO.
Mr. STEIGER. Thank you.
Chairman PERKINS. Are there any further questions?
Any further statements, Mr. `Segal?
Mr. SEGAL. No, sir; except we are most grateful to you for your
patience.
Chairman PERKINS. You have been helpful to the committee. We
appreciate your appearance today. We; have these problems of con-
solidation. The experience has been most successful in my judgment
with legal services in the past few yeras. Of course, it is getting better
every year.
I would personally like to see it better funded. Thanks to all you
gentlemen.
Mr. SEGATJ. Mr. Chairman, we are available at any time you wish
to call upon us and our staff and our committee will gladly come down
on short notice if we can be helpful.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Pucinski, any further questions?
Mr. PITOINSKI. Yes, I have one final question. I just want to point
out what I said earlier, Mr. Segal.
I have no quarrel with the legal services. I think it has done a good
job. I have seen some of the good work they have done.
But the good work they do is obscured by the gray areas they get
into. For example, I seriously question whether the Congress of the
United States established a Legal Services Branch to have young law-
yers fresh out of law school, and in some instances enjoying a selective
service deferment, going into our high schools and encouraging young
people into the kind of upheavals that we have seen taking place in the
high schools.
It would be a tragedy if one tried to judge the whole legal services
within this narrow confine, but this is a danger that we get into when
we discuss this question because the good work that legal services does
is obscured at times by this kind of activity.
In the city of Chicago VISTA lawyers and legal services, working
together, actually forced the principal out of the Crown School. People
walked in that school and `said, "We will give you 24 hours to get out of
this school and if you are not gone in 24 hours we can no longer assure
or guarantee your safety."
Surely this is not something that the Congress has ever recom-
mended. I believe that the work that you have done in protecting poor
people from usurous interest rates, from exploitive landlords who are
working the slums, and the various other protections youhave afforded
people are most laudatory.
This is the record I would like to use to defend this program. But I
want to know, Mr. Segal, what is the bar association doing as the
sponsoring agency of this program to make sure that these `abuses that
I referred to, that are clearly outside the intent of Congress, what is
the bar association doing about this particular aspect of legal services?
Mr. SEGAL. Congressman, first, let me say that as to the general
picture, both Mr. Gossett and I serve on the Advisory Committee to the
OEO legal services program.
PAGENO="0422"
1854
Mr. Robb does as well. So that we have three representatives there.
There are others from other organizations like Mr. Voorhees who are
very active in the American Bar Association, and he holds the chair-
manship of an importantcommittee.
We do consider it our obligation to the extent that private citizens,
having this collateral public position, can arrange to police the ac-
tivities to see that they are in proper bounds.
I feel I must refer, though, to the particular subject of which you
speak because it is one that I have been deeply concerned with, not
only by virtue of my connection with three educational institutions
by virtue of being trustee of them, and the problems we have along
the lines of those to which you referred and about which the country
is greatly disturbed, but because I~feel so strongly that the crime prob-
lem in America is a youth problem and if we say to our OEO attorneys
that this is something which is verboten, that they have to stay away
from youth, that no matter how much they can direct their thinking
into right channels, no matter how much they can advise them on their
rights of dissent but on the lack of right to engage in violence or de-
structive influence, that no matter how much a word from them can
divert a whole group of students away from the influence of one radi-
cal, ill-intentioned student, whose real purpose is not his interest in
the structure of his institution, high school or college, but really the
destruction of our American principles, if we say to our lawyers, "You
just stay clear of that," I think we are doing a disservice.
Now, you mentioned an instance, of course, with which I am per-
sonally unfamiliar and I would deplore that. I would say it is the
obligation of the American Bar Association, if, when that type of
thing occurs, one, to endeavor to call the particular lawyer to task,
and I would personally be perfectly willing, if you were to give me
the name or the incident, to investigate it and to talk with the person
involved, all the more because it is an area in the country now where
I must get to very often since our office is in Chicago, but I would like
to say that the advice and the counsel of these young people today is
essential.
We cannot possibly hope that the OEO legal services can reach the
problem. Therefore, I have as a major plank in my program next year
how the American Bar Association can help in directing the efforts
of young students in the high schools and universities, unhappy and
rightly unhappy, about many of the things we find in society today as
you and I are unhappy about in these turbulent times, how we can
direct their efforts along peaceful, constructive dissent rather than
destructive, violent action.
Mr. PUCINSKI. Are you suggesting, Mr. Segal, that it is within the
purview of the legal services to, for example, provide guidance and
legal advice to those who are tearing up our campuses today?
Mr. SEGAL. No. I think I have indicated the direct reverse. I said
that I believe that proper legal advice can avoid the tearing up of our
campuses.
I, myself, have been in ghetto areas~
PAGENO="0423"
1855
Mr. PucINsKI. But that has not been the record. Again, I want to
stress that what we are talking about here is not to be used, to injure
the whole program, because I think this program has served a very
good purpose.
I want to see this program continued. I think it should be given a
chance to prove itself. It has done `a lot of good around this country.
I am asking these questions today to bring out in the open those
instances which have brought discredit on the program and which
today jeopardize the whole program.
It seems to me that the young people you have recruited to a great
extent in the legal services are young lawyers just out of school, full
of fire, full of vim, full of vigor; idealists, to a great extent. In the
instance I am talking about the group consisted of young lawyers, just
out of law school, and they came to Chicago and they were going to
restructure the city.
As far as I know, most of them were taking advantage of deferment
and they were working in the high schools advisin~ young people of
their constitutional right~s to strike against conditions in the school
and to carry on demonstrations.
Perhaps I am wrong, but I do not believe that the American tax-
payer who has been most generous in all these programs wants to see
his money spent that way. That is why I `ask again what are you as
sponsoring agencies doing to make sure that these things do not happen
so that we can have this program renewed?
Mr. SEGAL. Congressman, as for the particular incident you refer
to in Chicago, which is unfamiliar to me, I am going to request our
staff to look into it. I think it i's important.
I think that as you describe it it is vital. I stated my views to the
preventive and construction w'ork which can be done in the field.
Now I will ask Mr. Robb to tell you about what we are doing to
endeavor to safeguard against improper use of legal services. Mr.
Robb.
Mr. ROBB. in our prepared statement we indicated just in this last
year alone, Mr. Pucinski, that we had made an examination `and par-
ticipated :111 evaluation of more than one-fourth of all of the legal
services programs `funded `by OEO and that each one of these valua-
tions t'ook somewhere between 2 and 7 days.
So they were n'ot just skimming the surface. I would s'ay and here
again, I don't have the figures, but it would be my estimate, that since
the beginning of the program we have participated in evaluations of
well over half of the programs.
Again, I mean in-depth studies. We investigate promptly any com-
plaints made about abuses that are conducted within the legal services
program by individual lawyers or by programs, whether they are
brought to our attention `by committees like this or `by bar associations
or by the OEO, or anyone else.
Mr. PUCINSKI. What worries me is that you stand here and say you
think it i's perfectly proper and correct-I think you said desirable-to
have your legal services attorneys, perhaps VISTA attorneys, seek out
PAGENO="0424"
1856
young people who feel they are aggrieved and show them how they can
give voice and meaning within legal bounds to their grievances.
I can't really believe that this is the function of the Office of Legal
Services. You talk about helping poor people who are exploited by
landlords who overcharge them, by merchants who overcharge them,
usurous interest rates, and all these things. I am with you.
But I do not believe that the Congress or the American taxpayer
is supporting legal services to have you go into the high schools and
help stimulate demonstrations.
We have enough problems as it is already. I do not think that we
need legal services to provide any more fuel in this direction.
Mr. ROBB. All I can say is that the purpose of the legal services pro-
grain is to provide legal services to those people who cannot afford it,
who have a legitimate grievance, and to that extent we make lawyers
available.
I am not aware of the extent of this instance that you are talking
about. We do not, and it is not the program of the legal services group
to be going around, as you say, stirring up the students into taking
illegal action against authorities in support of their demands.
Quite to the contrary, it is our function to serve all people who are
eligible for services and that does not exclude students, when they ask
us for advice as to what their rights are.
I certainly must second Mr. Segal's statement, and one I also made
at the beginning, that I think on the contrary, the record of the legal
services program is tha.t in civil disorders both on the campus and
in the streets that legal services lawyers have played a vital part in
helping to stern this illegal activity by pointing out the limits that
peaceful dissent can go to.
Mr. PuoINsKI. Let me make this final observation. There are in this
country 14 million Americans in poverty, abject poverty, who need
an awful lot of help, people who have been discriminated against in
their jobs, people who are being discriminated against in credit ratings,.
people who can't get credit, people who pay huge interest rates, people
who live in slum housing.
It seems to me that there is such a vast field for the poverty program
to deal with this root cause of poverty that you do not have to seek
more trouble.
I am sorry to hear you say that you think this is what is within the
purview of the legal services. It makes it that much more difficult to
get this program through the Congress.
Chairman PET~KINS. Let me thank all you gentlemen for your ap-
pearance. You have been most `helpful to the committee and made your
positions just as clear as crystal and we all understand your testimony.
I think all who are in the Congress will appreciate this clear expla-
nation. Thank you very much.
Mr. SEGAL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I will welcome having a private discussion with Congressman Pucin-
ski on the problem which troubles him because I assure him that it
troubles us also.
Mr. P~cIxsKI. I am glad it also troubles you. It troubles both of us.
Chairman Pruiuxs. Come around, the American Law School Panel.
PAGENO="0425"
1857
STATEMENT OP PROP. PRANK SANDER, HARVARD UNIVERSITY
LAW SCHOOL, CHAIRMAN, COUNCIL ON LEGAL EDUCATION
OPPORTUNITY, ACCOMPANIED BY DR. MELVIN KENNEDY,
ATLANTA GA., EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, COUNCIL ON LEGAL EDU-
CATION OPPORTUNITY; PROP. SANFORD ROSEN, UNIVERSITY OP
MARYLAND, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR, COUNCIL ON LEGAL EDUCA-
TION OPPORTUNITY; DEAN WILLIAM B. LOCKHART, UNIVERSITY
OP MINNESOTA SCHOOL OP LAW, PRESIDENT, ASSOCIATION OP
AMERICAN LAW SCHOOLS; PROP. MICHAEL K. CARDOZO, WASH-
INGTON, D.C., EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ASSOCIATION OF AMERICAN
LAW SCHOOLS; AND PETER L. WOLFF, ASSISTANT TO THE EXECU-
TIVE DIRECTOR, ASSOCIATION 0]? AMERICAN LAW SCHOOLS
Chairman PERKINS. Let me welcon~e you here, Mr. Sander, and the
entire group. I notice you are chairman of the panel. Proceed in any
manner you prefer.
Mr. SANDER. My name is Frank Sander, professor at Harvard Law
School and chairman on the Council of Legal Education Opportunity.
The Council on Legal Education Opportunity, otherwise referred
to as CLEO, is an organization that was created early in 1968 through
the efforts of the Office of Economic Opportunity and others.
Its central goal is to recruit and facilitate the training of disad-
vantaged individuals for the legal profession. The constituent orga-
nizations of the `Council on Legal Education Opportunity are the
American Bar Association which has three members, the Association
of American Law Schools, which has three members, the National Bar
Association, which has three members, and one member from the Law
School Admission Test Council.
The committee has already heard from one member of CLEO, Mr.
Bernard Segal, who appeared here in his capacity as president-elect
of the American Bar Association.
The other American Bar Association members of the council are Mr.
William Reece Smith of Tampa, Fla., and Mr. Charles Goldberg of
Milwaukee, Wis.
The other members from the Association of American Law Schools
besides myself are Dean W. Page Keeton of the University of Texas
Law School, and Prof. Wex Malone of Louisiana State University
Law School.
There are also three members from the National Bar Association,
Judge Billy Jones of East St. Louis, Ill.; Dean Lenoir of the Southern
University Law School in Baton Rouge, La.; and Dean Kemleth Tol-
lett of the Texas Southern Law School in Houston, Tex.
Finally, the member from the Law School Admission Test Council
is Prof. Millard Ruud from the University of Texas Law School.
These are the 10 members from the Council on Legal Education
Opportunity.
I wonder if I may briefly introduce the other members of our panel
here. In the interest of saving the committee's time, I am not going to
ask them to participate in the principal presentation but try to bring
their knowledge to bear for any questions that may arise.
PAGENO="0426"
1858
Over to my immediate left is Dean William B. Lockhart from the
tTniversity of Minnesota Law School who is the president of the Associ-
ation of American Law Schools. Next to him is Michael Cardozo, ex-
ecutive director of the association, with headquarters here in Wash-
ington. immediately to my right is Dr. Melvin D. Kennedy, executive
director of CLEO, Council on Legal Education Opportunity, with
headquarters in Atlanta, Ga.
To his right is Prof. Sanford V. Rosen, who is the associate director
of CLEO. Finally, `behind me is Mr. Peter L. Wolff, who is the assist-
ant to the executive director of the Association of American Law
Schools.
Before beginning my statement, I would like to say that I planned
to depart from the written statement that we have prepared, add a
few `points, in order to summarize certain aspects or focus on others.
I will try, however, to follow generally the order of the writ.ten
statement and trust that this procedure will be satisfactory to the
committee.
Since the effective provision of legal services to the poor depends in
large part on the availability of well-trained indigenous lawyers who
can communicate effectively with the poor and who have their full
confidence and trust, we believe that our activities have an important
bearing on the work of OEO legal services. Indeed, this fact has
happily been recognized by OEO in that CLEO is currently receiving
`a grant of approximately $500,000 to aid its recruitment activity, in-
cluding 11 summer prelaw institutes encompassing approximately 40
law schools and 450 potential law students.
Unfortunately, however, these recruitment efforts are in danger of
being frustrated by the absence of adequate financial aid to enable
qualified students to pursue the study of law.
Despite strenuous efforts by myself and others to raise such funds
from private sources, we have been repeatedly told that this job is too
big for private foundations and that it is a public responsibility.
We understand that the Office of Economic Opportunity is unsure
of its authority to provide such financial assistance. Since such `assist-
ance is an essential follow-through, in our judgment, to the commit-
ment already made by the Office of Economic Opportunity to CLEO
we hope that this committee will give some direction to OEO on this
matter.
Before going into the background that led to the formation of the
Council on Legal Education Opportunity, I wonder whether I might
briefly interject one or two comments in support of the OEO legal
services program that is the principal subject for discussion today.
I am very privileged to be on the board of two legal services pro-
grams. One, that of my own law school conducted by the students
there in a section in Cambridge, the other the general legal services
program for the city of Boston.
I have seen personally the kind of dedicated and pervasive service
rendered by those organizations in a way that was simply impossible
before the enactment of the Equal Opportunity Act.
I want to express my own appreciation to this committee and to the
Congress for its farsighted support of these programs.
With respect to the Harvard Law School program, there have been
some added benefits.
PAGENO="0427"
1859
First of all, our curriculum has been greatly enriched by the feed-
back from our legal services program and thus has given our large
and outstanding student body as well as our faculty some exposure
to the critical legal issues of the poor and the disadvantaged.
Secondly, for the increasing number of minority and otherS disad-
vantaged students at my school it has provided an opportunity for
relevant clinical experience while in school and an exciting and use-
ful career prospect upon graduation, thus further demonstrating the
close connection between the goals of CLEO and the work of OEO
legal `services.
With these summary introductory remarks, I would now like to go
back to a brief description of the conditions that led to the formation
of the Council on Legal Education Opportunity.
There is no doubt in my mind that economically `and culturally cbs-
`advantaged persons have great difficulty in entering the legal
profession.
Most `notably, minority groups are seriously under represented in the
legal profe'ssi'on as in most other sectors of American life.
Negroes, for example, constitute roughly 10 percent of the national
population but make up slightly more than 1 `percent `of the bar.
`There is one lawyer `fo:r every 631' persons in `the United `States but
only one Negro lawyer for every 7,000 Negroes.
Even these `figures `do not measure the particularly acute `imbalance
in certain regions. Although half the Nation's Negroes `live in the
South today, `a scant 15 percent of `the Negro lawyers practice there.
In the south, therefore, every Negro lawyer must serve approximately
30,000 Negro citizens.
`Other minority groups have fared no better, if, indeed, `as well. There
are no nationwide figures for persons of Spanish-American ancestry
`but a single typical illustration may suffice to make the general case.
In the city `and county of Denver, about 9 percent of the population
is Mexican-American, but fewer than 10 of the city's 2,000 lawyers,
one-half of 1 percent, have Spanish surnames.
`The plight of the American Indian is even worse. The only available
estimate reports no more than four or `five American Indian attorneys
in the entire `United States.
With `some recent assistance from the Federal Government an'd pri-
vate foundations, the bar and the law schools have `begun the difficult
process of redressing this imbalance.
Their efforts have progresse'd to `the `point that it is now clear that
successful `completion of the job is dependent upon increased Federal
financial assistance.
Following some experimental `summer recruitment problems by a
number of `individual law schools sudh as those at Harvard and Emory,
a series of meetings in 1967-1968 `sponsored `by the `OEO, led to the
formation of the Council on Legal Education Opportunity which I
shall hereafter refer to as CLEO.
Its initial undertaking `last year when it was formed was sponsorship
of four summer training and evaluation institutes f'or `disa'dvai~taged
`students who desired to go `to law school but were not admissible under
`ord'inary criteria.
`The institutes were located at Emory, Denver, Harvard and UCLA.
These programs `as well `as staffing were obtained from the `Office of
Economic `Opportunity.
PAGENO="0428"
1860
This fall, as a result of those programs, nearly 100 students success-
fully completed these programs and were enrolled in approximately
34 law schools around the United States.
Next summer we plan to broaden these programs to a considerable
extent. We will have 11 regional summer institutes all across the
United States, encompassing, as I have said, approximately 450 stu-
dents and almost 40 law schools and spreading all the way from the
east coast to the west coast, from the center of the country to the South.
In addition, CLEO has undertaken a number of other activities,
such as the sponsorship of recruitment conferences, fundraising for
scholarship aid, development of additional career opportunities and
places in law school for members of disadvantaged groups. These
CLEO programs and a number of the other related programs. de-
scribed more fully in pages 4 to 5 of my written statement, have had a
significant impact on minority group enrollment in law school.
For example, available estimates of total Negro school enrollment in
nationally accredited law schools show that. there were approximately
700 such students in 1964-65 and 1,~255 in 1967-68, an increase of
approximately 550.
For 1969-70, we anticipate that Negro student enrollment will in-
crease to around 1,650. Recent experience suggests that a large pooi of
disadvantaged students has only begun to be tapped. The absolute and
relative number of such college students is rapidly increasing.
Widespread and effective publicity for some of our summer institutes
has also revealed a previously untapped pooi of underutilized college
graduates who are qualified for and interested in a legal career, but
who have hitherto not found a means of achieving this objective.
The current school enrollment figures for minority students are so
far from the general population ratios that continued recruitment and
prelaw programs will generate ever-increasing applications to law
school from minority group members and other disadvantaged people.
The very existence of CLEO and the other special programs men-
tioned earlier had undoubtedly stimulated increased interest in law
study among disadvantaged college undergraduates. Comparable pro-
grams in other fields of graduate study have also contributed to this
heightened interest.
The increasing willingness of law schools to take risks with disad-
vantaged students-that is, to admit applicants who would otherwise
be rejected because of noncompetitive grades or admission test scores-
is a major component of the projected increase. As accumulated experi-
ence facilitates the refinement of criteria for selecting among minority
and disadvantaged applicants who would not otherwise be admissible,
and these data are disseminated to law schools by such organizations as
CLEO, the extent of this commitment is likely to increase. Law schools
will step up their recruitment programs even further.
Before pointing to the future, I would like to just briefly articulate
what we think are the important reasons why these efforts must. be
kept up and increased.
First, the best interests of disadvantaged clients demand an in-
crease in attorneys drawn from economically and culturally disadvan-
taged backgrounds. The outrageous exploitation of the poor and dis-
advantaged in the urban ghettos is a product of many factors. Yet,
no defense or antidote would be more effective than readily available
PAGENO="0429"
1861
legal counsel within the community where the reprehensible practices
occur.
Second, lawyers are needed to take on the unpopular causes that
come from disadvantaged group areas. Affluent lawyers are often will-
ing and able to plead such cases, and under certain circumstances may
be highly effective. But increasingly the need is for attorneys of back-
grounds similar to those of the clients, who thus understand the cause
even if they do not share it. Particularly where racial tension or hos-
tility is involved, the lawyer originating from the disadvantaged group
is far better equipped to bridge the gap and to provide effective counsel
than those with other backgrounds.
Third, there is mounting evidence of the reluctance of minority
group persons in need of help or counsel to confide in majority group
members. Within the Spanish-speaking community, the language bar-
rier poses an obvious deterrent to effective communication between in-
side client `and outside attorney. A similar barrier pertains within the
American Indian community. In the Negro community the language
barrier is subtler, but seems no less serious. In addition, there is a
serious lack of empathy between all those minority groups and the
m'ajority of the population of the country.
Fourth, increasing the membership in the bar of persons from clis-
`advantaged groups insures the development of responsible leadership
within the `communities of those groups, and we think this is extremely
important. It also facilitates the participation of members of those
groups in government and the political processes, since lawyers occupy
a disproportionate share of appointed and elective public offices.
Fifth, minority group attorneys provide career models for the guid-
ance `and inspiration of young members of those groups. The success,
both tangible and intangible, which minority group members achieve
through admission to the bar and the legal profession affords an im-
portant avenue of advancement. Thus, increased representation in a
high status profession such as law constitutes an important socio-
economic achievement in and of itself.
Finally, it is morally right and consistent with constitutional prin-
ciple that the Federal Government aid the bar and the law `schools in
seeking every available means of increasing substantially and rapidly
the participation of minority groups and economically and culturally
disadvantaged peop'le in the life of the legal profession.
Serious underrepresentation of minority groups is least tolerable in
,the legal profession, for it is that profession which bears the responsi-
bility for enforcing `the constitutional and statutory guarantees of
eq~uality and nondiscrimination. To impose those standards on others,
without `being able to put one's `own house in order, would constitute the
worst form of hypocrisy.
Because of these `compelling reasons, and the important achievement
of OLEO to date, we are counting on continuation `of OLEO's basic
demonstration project grant. However, scholarship and grant assist-
ance to support minority and disadvantaged studenes while they attend
law school seems to us to depend upon some clarification by `this
committee.
Unfortunately, even the large foundations and other private' sources
of funds have advised us that they cannot meet this expanding need.
Unquestionably the law schools, themselves hard pressed to keep up
PAGENO="0430"
1862
with their present rate of substantia.l support for these programs, lack
adequate resources to do the necessary job.
Continued and increased scholarship and living expense aid is crucial
to any program for disadvantaged persons, since these students almost
by definition lack any resources of their own. The Federal Government
is the only agency capable of adequately meeting that need.
The surveys described at pages 9 to 10 of my written statement reveal
that the principal barrier for disadvantaged students intent on embark-
ing on a legal career is insufficient finances. For students often already
heavily in debt when they reach law school, the prospect of graduate
education without very substantial assistance is quite unrealistic. They
are `likely to arrive at graduate school already encumbered by substan-
tial debts incurred to get through college.
They are also far more likely than undergraduates to have family
responsibi'litie.s of their own. Wives may `be able to `work, but `only as
long as `there are no young children at home to care for.
Loans and earnings from part-time or summer employment are
neither sufficient nor appropriate to support these students. Loans,
where they are available at all to graduate students with no immediate
earning prospect and no collateral, serve to superimpose `an added obli-
gation upon `an already unwieldy personal debt structure.
Moreover, there are now enough opportunities `for the minority
student-in other avenues of graduate study or immediate employ-
ment-that his choice will be severely biased if the price of choosing
law is the assumption of heavy further debts, nor is summer or part-
time work the answer for the culturally a.nd economically disadvan-
taged students, whose college work and credentials are often marginal.
It is even more vital that `full time `be devoted to studies satisfactory
for whatever small time must be set aside for recreation and diversion.
In `order to begin the orderly task of redressing the imbalance within
law schools `and the legal profession, a public fund is essential. It must
be sufficient to defray tuition and cost-of-living expenses of an increas-
ing number of economically and culturally `disadvantaged law
students.
Even if tuition costs are met from other sources, CLEO has esti-
mated that it needs at least $1 million to support a minimum target
group of 500 entering students next fall for the academic year
1969-70. The sum needed to finance these students through the 3 years
of law school, allowing for some attrition, would `be approximately
$2.5 million.
And these are only the modest immediate needs that must be `met if
we `are not to falter now in the vital struggle to `bring `full and equal
opportunity to the legal profession. To the extent our programs are
broadened to include additional economically and culturally disad-
vantaged stud'ents, additional money will be necessary. So far `CLEO
has been able to raise less than $300,000 from private sources for aid
to the minimum target group.
We feel strongly, therefore, that the only hope for the short- and
long-term success of th'is important program lies with the Federal
Government.
Chairman PEn~INs. Let me congratulate you on `a very thorough
and concise statement. I think you have made yourself very clear.
Did I understand you to state, Mr. Sander, that the other gentle-
men did not have prepared statements?
PAGENO="0431"
1863
Mr. SANDER. I think we know that this committee is very busy and
has many other matters to `attend to. We would prefer to save the time
for any questions that the committee has.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Pucinski?
Mr. PucINsKI. Doctor, you heard the earlier discussion that I had
with Mr. Segal, the president of the American Bar Association. I said
then, and I say now, that I am `di'stui~bed that the good work that the
legal services does in so many parts of this country gets obscured and
lost `by `the kinds of activities `of young lawyers who' `come `into the
picture and, as `saviors `of the community, they get engaged in all of
these things that prove so troublesome to the community itself.
I think the American people have `had their fill of agitators, whether
they `are working for legal services or whether `they are working for
Students `for a Democratic Society or `any other `organization.
It seems to me that we have got to find some way to isolate or insulate
this program from that kind `of `activity if we are going to get the
Congress to continue funding it. `Would you have `any suggestions?
Mr. SANDER. Congressman, I think that is a difficult and an impor-
taut problem. I share your concern, `but I feel fortunate in the sense
that we have rather major concerns of `our economy which are more
limited, which we are struggling with; namely, how to train more
disadvantaged students `for the law.
I would not presume to try to solve a complicated problem such as
that which you have pointed up, except to say that our concern has been
much more narrow. We do not operate the legal service programs. We
don't send lawyers into high schools or anywhere else.
What we try to do is train more disadvantaged lawyers. I would sup-
pose'that you would be fully in accord with that objective.
Mr. PUOINSKI. Yes, I would be, for the simple reason that I think
that all of the professions in this country are going to have to take a
hard look at the number of people they are training. There is a tragic
shortage of lawyers in this country, particularly in relation to this vast
group of Americans w'ho have had no association with legal counsel,
who have never been advised of any of their rights. There is no ques-
tion that the poor people are the greatest victims of exploitation in
this country.
Do you have any suggestions on what we can do to help produce
more of those who would give `credence to our whole democratic
process?
Mr. `SANDER. I know of no better way than to find persons who are
interested in becoming lawyers and send them to good law schools
like some of those in Chicago, and then rely on them `to be competent
attorneys.
I am sure some methods can `be worked up by those who are in charge
or supervising and checking on and overseeing legal servi'ce operations
to minimize the kind of concern that you have.
Mr. PuoINsKI. A few years back, some of our universi'ties, in order
to give disadvantaged youngsters an opportunity for a higher educa-
tion, did set up a dual standard of education and did `let, and are let-
ting, a lot of young people who otherwise wouldn't qualify under the
rigid standards into our schools.
We had hoped, `and I think that most university administrators had
hoped, that the net effect would be that you would have a large group
PAGENO="0432"
1864
of very grateful young people, grateful for the opportunity, address-
ing themselves to their academic problems and pursuits of learning.
However, from what I have heard from Dr. Hayakawa before this
committee and from Dr. Betteffleini and from other very reputable wit-
nesses, it seems that we have run into a dilemma and a disappointment.
These young people to a great extent, not all of them-it is always un-
f air to deal in broad strokes because you hurt a lot of good people along
the way-but many of those who are now in the forefront of leading
the rioting and the unrest in our universities are the very people that
have been admitted into these universities at lower standards.
How do we resolve that dilemma?
* Mr. SANDER. I think, as you say, it is very important to stress that
this `is a selective problem. We have to deal with individuals, not with
groups.
I know at my own law school in Cambridge, Mass., we have quite a
sizable number of minority students and other disadvantaged students
who were admitted. We have found them very useful and helpful
members of the university community.
So, I think it is very important to deal with this on an individual
basis. I know of no method other than to try and get the most qualified
persons to go into the field, to go into the legal profession, and to give
them a good legal training that exposes them to the values of the
legal process. I might add at this point that I think on the whole it
has l~en very good to bring some of these persons into the legal pro-
fession. I have observed personally as a teacher of law that many of
these students will see the law as a way of resolving the problems that
concern them.
Again, as you say, I know of no formula that is going to make every-
one do the right thing. I guess that is a universal difficulty everywhere.
But I think legal training seems to me to offer some advantage of
opening up an orderly method of redressing grievances and, therefore,
I would say it is a rather hopeful path to the kinds of concerns you
have.
Mr. `PucINsKI. Of course, I `can agree and this is the problem Iwish
you ` would address yourself to and make some suggestions to us. We
have a shortage of lawyers in this country, practicing lawyers;
We have a lot of lawyers graduating from law schools, but'the over-
wihelming majority of these people never really go into the practice of
law. They go into corporations and they become real estate experts
and insurance agents and various other things.
I think you and I know that the majority of those who pass' the bar
do not actually go and practice law in the court.'
I have agreed time and again with the statement that justice delayed.
is justice denied. The average criminal lawyer in big cities likeChicago,
New York, St. Louis, or Buffalo, may go into court six, seven, or'eight
times in getting continuances to defend a client, simply because he
has a huge caseload. That, of course, wears out witness and witnesses
become discouraged and disgusted.
Is it possible that when we look `at the great need for lawyers in
this country, with the problems that we have, is it possible that maybe
you gentlemen in the law schools have set your sights `too high ?
Can we perhaps shorten the courses and generate more lawyers in
that'way?
PAGENO="0433"
1865
Mr. SANDER. I think I would like to give Mr. Lockhart, who has far
wider experience in legal education than I, a chance to answer that
question.
Mr. LOCKHART. Congressman, we are really quite rapidly expanding
the nuthber of lawyers that are being trained throughout the country
today.
Mr. PucINsKI. Yes, but they are not going into law.
Mr. LOCKHART. I am sorry, sir; but my impression is that they are.
I know from my own law school there are approximately 80 and 85.
percent going into the practice of law. And I think that you have
vastly underestimated it.
It may be that for some of the law schools the figure is far below
that. But while we are not yet able to meet the demands, because the
demand is expanding very rapidly, the law schools are also expanding~
the number of students that they are training quite rapidly.
What we are here before you now on is to try to increase the group
that comes from the disadvantaged.
Mr. PuCINsKI. I am with you on that. We have no quarrel on that.
Mr. LOCKHART. I do think that we are making considerable progress.
in meeting the need, `although I think we will begin to see the results
of that probably 4 or 5 years from now. We are just at a dedication of
a new law school in North Carolina this weekend.
There have been three big law schools dedicated this year. We are~
expanding the physical facilities `as fast as the funds are available~.
Until we have space, we cannot expand. I do not believe that we can.
reduce the length of time for the training, but I think we are using the.
time now far more effectively through the expansion of clinical training:
and training more in doing the kind of things that l'awyers do.
I think they `are far `better prepared today when they leave the law
school to start performing the functions of a lawyer than they were,,.
say, 10 years ago.
Chairman PERKINS. While yOu are on that subject, to what extent do
we have a shortage' of lawyers in this country today? I think you~
gentlemen are competent to answer that question.
Mr., LOCKHART. 1 have no surveys that would indicate what that'
shortage is. All I can `answer with respect to that is that in talking with',
deans around the country, they are all experiencing the same problem
we are, that we are not able to meet the demand, that there are more
demand's for lawyers than there `are places for them~ and the reasons
for this `are fairly obvious-the vast expansion of business activity,.
and Oovernment regulation whidh requires the lawyers on the Gov-
ernment side and on the `business side. ` `
We have the tremendous increase in the amount of representation'
that is now available in the, courts in criminal cases, which previously
was :not required, and the expansion of programs that is occurring,
such as through the legal services program, by which we are reaching'
the communities we have not been `able to reach in the past.
Chairman PERKINS. Do you hav'e data along that line comparable to
the data the American Medical Associati'on `had as to the shortage of"
doctors in the country?
Mr.. SANDER. I don't know of `any, Mr. Chairman. But I think we
may be `able, to try and put our `heads together with the ABA, with
which we work in close cooperation, `and try and find some data. I arn~
2T-7~4-69--pt. 3-28
PAGENO="0434"
1866
sure that we could get some comparisons of relation of lawyers to
growth and population or comparable data.
(Information follows:)
AssocIATIoN OF A~noRICAx LAW SCHOOLS,
Hay 16, 1969.
HARTWELL REED, Esq.,
General Counsel, Committee on Education and Labor,
U.~S. House 01 Representatives, Washington, D.C.
DEAR JACK: In accordance with the request made by Chairman Perkins during
the course of our testimony before the Ad Hoc Task Force on Poverty on May 5th
for some data on the shortage of lawyers in terms of total population, I am
enclosing herewith a copy of a table showing the national population-lawyer
ratio for 1948-1966. This data appeared in the 1967 Lawyers Statistical Report,
edited by Fred B. Weil for the American Bar Foundation in Chicago, Illinois.
I assume that this Will probably be inserted into the record following the
statement by Professor Sander that we would attempt to find some data on
comparisons of relation of lawyers to growth of population. We are hopeful that
the enclosed is satisfactory for this purpose.
Sincerely,
PETER L. WOLFF,
Assistant to the E~recutive Director.
NATIONAL: POPULATION-LAWYER RATIO, 1948-1966
Number of
Year Population lawyers
Percent change pe
Ratio Population
r triennium
Lawyers
1948 146,631,000
1951 154,360,000 221,605 696 5.3
1954 162, 417, 000 241, 514 672 5. 2 9. 0
1957 171,198,000 262,320 653 5.4 8.6
1960 180,670,000 285,933 632 5.5 9.0
1963 188,531,000 296,069 637 4.4 3.4
1966 196,842,000 316,856 621 4. 4 7. 0
Mr. LOCKHART. One advantage is that we can expand a good deal
faster in meeting the needs for lawyers, because we don't have the
laboratory problems. We have that with respect to libraries, but it
doesn't begin to involve the kind of limitations like hospitals and so
forth.
Chairman PERKINS. That is correct. It :j5 a different situation alto-
gether.
Mr. PUCINsKI. As you know, we have had for many years a standing
practice, whereby when the Government trains doctors, and contrib-
utes to their education, a certain percentage of those dOctors must give
their service to the Government, in the military and so on.
Poor people need lawyers and they need them more than anybody
else. If you are going to help people out of poverty, you have to give
them some protection against constant exploitation at every level.
Wherever they go, they are being exploited.
What would be your reaction to a proposal that where we subsidize
a young man's legal training, as we do through the various Federal
grants and loans, that we would work out some program with the bar
association or the law schools to require that a certain percentage of
these young lawyers must give perhaps a year or two of their effort
and time toward working in an agency like legal services, where we
could give people in poverty a chance to fight their way out of poverty?
Mr. SANDER. I can only give you a personal reaction. This is not
PAGENO="0435"
1867
something our organization has taken a position on. I think my per-
sonal view would be, I would find that perfectly acceptable. I think I
am troubled about any device that compels people for an extensive
period to do particular work, because I particularly feel conceimed
about disadvantaged people who finally have made it when they get
out of law school.
I would be concerned about a program, let's say, that would say,
"For 10 years you have to work not only in a legal services program,
but south of the Mason-Dixon line," as some people have suggested.
I personally find that a little bit troubling.
Mr. PucIxsKI. I won't suggest anything quite that long. I was think-
ing more in terms of 1 year.
Mr. SANDER. I would find that quite unobjectionable and, in addi-
tion, I think your point seems to me very sound; namely, that this
would serve two purposes.
It would give the Government perhaps something of a return on
their investment, but also it would give a very important secondary
benefit to the people, the other poor people, we are trying to help. So,
I would find that very sensible.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Buckley ~
Mr. BUCKLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I have some questions, but I would defer to the Congressman until
he is finished.
Mr. PUOINSKI. Go ahead.
Mr. SANDER. I think Dean Lockhart wanted to say a word.
Mr. LOCKHART. It is my impression that these disadvantaged peo-
ple are sufficiently concerned with the idea of service that probably
such a requirement would not be necessary, and that the opportunities
for service will probably not be as great as our people who are willing
to serve.
Mr. PUCINSKI. I don't want to seem cynical, but I am not too sure
that Mr. Segal's statement thitt recruiting presents no problem `would
be the same if the Nation didn't have the problem of 2-year military
service that faces a lot of young men. I happen to believe that many
of the young men who are going into legal services and VISTA are
volunteering because `they get a deferment;.
While I do not challenge their integrity or honesty-and I hope
that what I say here won't be misunderstood-I think that we have to
find some machinery that is going to get us a more reliable flow of
lawyers to help the poor people `than the machinery that we now have.
That is the only point I want to make.
Mr. LOCKHART. I would simply comment on that in the same manner
that Mr. Segal did. I know `the men that are now working in Minneap-
ohs in the legal services and they are the people with families. They
*are not people who are concerned with the draft at all. I grant that
there are some undoubtedly, particularly those who go into VISTA,
that are going into VISTA because this is a way to `do a satisfactory
job of service and get deferment.
I don't know that any of these particular ones I have in mind were
not involved in any kind of legal services through VISTA, but in
other operations.
PAGENO="0436"
1868
Mr. SANDER. I think, Congressman, my own experience in Boston ~S:
the same as Dean Lockhart, that is, that people in legal services opera-
tions, I think, do not qualify for draft deferments.
You may know of some particular cases, but I know of several peo-
ple who work in legal service operations and they are either married
or they are 4-F or one thing or another. But I don't believe this is
generally recognized and I don't believe it should be as a basis for-
draft deferment.
Mr. LOCKHART. I have never heard of this as being a basis for draft
deferment.
Mr. BUCKLEY. I would like to ask a question along those lines. You'
have indicated that in addition to the information that is in your state-~
ment about the need for education, to train law graduates, that you
have some interest and have done some work in the area of placement.
What is the justification or theory that graduate law students are
granted deferment from military service?
Mr. LOCKHART. I know of no basis upon which they are granted de-
ferment for military service. Some would go to work for judges who
are treated as deferred for a year. Some boards will defer them and
Some will not.
Occasionally I think if they get `into a Government job, a prosecu-
tor's job, `they might get a deferment, but ordinarily not. A few go into.
teaching.
What I have noticed is that some of these who are really trying to
avoid military service are becoming: grade school teachers for a period
of time, which we discourage.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Do you know approximately how many lawyers are
enrolled in the VISTA program?
Mr. LOCKHART. No, I have no information about that. I can't answer-
that. I don't know of any that have gone in as lawyers.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Are you aware or is it true that the OEO and the'
VISTA program hope to enroll 500 or~00 law school graduates in the'
VISTA program in June?
Mr. `SANDER. I don't know specifically about that. I `have heard of
law graduates going into VISTA. I have seen some of those attached'
to some of the Boston legal services operations. I don't know what the
num'ber of them is `and my impression there has been that their `draft
status is `determined `by local `boards, that is, whether the local board
will recognize VISTA as something that is so' `in the national interest
like clerking for a Supreme Court `Justice or something like that, that
an exemption will be granted. . `;
Mr. BUCKLEY. Do you agree with that?
Mr. `SANDER. I am afraid I don't' know enough `about the draft law
to comment on it. I would certainly not think that an individual worker'
in VISTA should be treated at `the same level as someone who is a law
clerk to Chief Justice Warren or'soiñeone else of that limited group.
I don't have the language in front of me that applies here and I
would want to see t'hat first. It seems to me that I have some doubts'
about a general exemption for VISTA.
Mr. LOCKHART. The Association of American Law Schools `has neSTer
taken a position that it should `help seek deferment for anyone. And in
the main, most of the law graduates that I know who have not served
PAGENO="0437"
1869
~before they graduate go into the military service immediately after.
Of course, for the future there is going to be relatively `few who will
get into law school without having the military service unless the
draft regulations are changed again.
Mr. BUCKLEY. The panel that preceded you indicated that today
many lawyers, and I got the implication a great many could walk out
and could demand $15,000 a year. Do you agree with that figure?
Mr. SANDER. That is the well-brooded-about figure that is the amount
that first started to be paid. by the New York firm of Cravath, Swain &
Moore that was announced about a year or two ago. I think it is true
that in New York the major firms are now paying $15,000 at least, if
not more, to the top students and some below that are coming out of
law school.
Mr. BUCKLEY. What does Martinsdale-Hubbell say about the average
~income of lawyers in the country?
Mr. SANDER. I don't know what the amount is, but I would suspect
it is somewhat below $15,000.
Mr. PUCIN5KI. `I have two quick questions. No. 1, I think we all
-agree that we have a shortage of lawyers. Would it be your judgment
that perhaps the President ought to exercise his executive powers and
include in the deferment lawyers who are attending law school?
It was not my intention when I voted for the Draft Extension Act
and its revisions that we should interfere with the normal, orderly
process of a youngster working his way through college. What we
wanted to do was to close the loopholes of the so-called professional
`student who kept going on and on and on and on until he reached the
age of 26 or 27 `and was `out of the draft.
This was clearly, in my judgment, and in many cases a draft dodger's
device and we wanted to block that practice. But I am not aware that it
was the intention of Congress tha't we should interrupt a youngster
`who was going through the normal `process. That does not mean he is
excused from military service. He still must perform his military, duty,
but after he has completed his law course.
Mr. LOCKHART. Congressman Pucinski, the Association `of American
Law `Schools has taken the position that the `long-range solution should
be that the 19-year-old be chosen from the pool at random, as was sug-
gested a year or tw'o ago, and tha't if they are not chosen at `that point,
they then should be allowed to go on through.
As you know, the present system is when they graduate from college,
they then are subject `to draft. Unfortunately what we are finding out
is that the summer is too short and that the draft calls are too small.
So when fall comes, they still are left up in the air. They don't know
what to do. `So then they enter law school.
At that point it is at least important that they be protected for that
first year or for whatever term the law school operates on. In the case
of first-year students, it is usually through the first year before they
~can really complete what they are working for.
So long as we re'tain our present `system and `don't have the random
~ehection method, then I personally have no serious objection t'o their
being taken at, the end of a particular year. There is some advantage
in their having their military service out of the way when they get their
LL.B. or J.D. degree so they can immediately start serving as lawyers.
PAGENO="0438"
1870
If there was enough service for them as lawyers within the. armed
services, in the legal work that is available for lawyers there, that
would be fine, but there isn't, and most of them are not used as lawyers.
Mr. PUCIXsKI. The other question I have in regard to this bill that
is before us is, how can we get more of the more experienced lawyers
into this program? Tip to now we have been talking primarily about
young lawyers recently out of college, who go into legal services, and
who go into VISTA. It seems to me that the problem of adequate legal
representation for the poor is a problem of social conscience.
Perhaps we ought to have some sort of a structure within this pro-
gram to provide some encouragement to law firms to donate a certain
part of their legal staff time to this kind of service.
Would you have, any suggestions as to what we could do in this bill
to encourage students in college to get into work-study programs so
that part of their college work can be in a law firm as clerks, a law
firm that is giving its time or part of its time to working with the poor?
Does anyone have any suggestions?
Mr. SANDER. I will take a stab at it.. I think that is a big order. But
I would wonder whether that. is the kind of thing that could be or
should be done in this bill. I am sure you know, Congressman, that
there are many law firms now around the country, cerbainily in Boston
and in New York, that are doing just what you have suggested.
Justice Brennan gave a speech a year or two ago that it is the re-
sponsibility `of the bar not just to service corporate clients, but to meet
the needs `of the poor and underprivileged. He suggested that law firms
set aside I day a week, 1 day would donate the time of `any lawyer to
either work in a legal service operation or to work on law reform or all
the other kinds of legal services that are needed.
I think a large number `of firms are `doing that `partly because they
think it is right `and partly out of enlightened self-interest `because they
find it is the lawyers now who want to do that. We find the students
graduating from Harvard Law School are more attracted to a firm that
does that kind of thing.
I think tha.t `is true~ of some older `and more experienced `people, too,.
as you `have `suggested. So I think this problem will solve itself through
the demands of enlightened lawyers.
Chairman PERKINS. I thank all of you gentlemen. You have been
most helpful to the committee. We appreciate your appearance here
today.
`Mr. SANDER. We very much thank the committee for its kindness
in giving us a chance to appear.
Ohairman PERKINS. Our next witness is the Reverend Perry Smith~
executive director, Prince Georges County Community Action Com-
mittee, Prince Georges County, Md.; `accompanied `by Mrs. Caroline.'
Wood. chairman of the board: Mrs. Ruth Wolf. member of the board
Mrs. Betty Ellis, vice })reSident.. Prince Georges County Headsta.rt
Parent Advisory Committee: and Mrs. Dorothy Longus, assistant sec-
retary, Prince `Georges `County Headst.art Parent Advisory Committee.
All of you come around.
I `take it, Reverend Smith, you will `make the first statement `as mod-
erator `and let all of them make statements `before we commence `the
interrogation. Go right ahead,
PAGENO="0439"
1871
STATEMENT OP REV. PERRY SMITH, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR,
PRINCE GEORGES COUNTY COMMUNITY ACTION COMMITTEE,
PRINCE GEORGES COUNTY, MD.; ACCOMPANIED BY MRS. CARO-
LINE WOOD, CHAIRMAN OP THE BOARD; MRS. RUTH WOLF, MEM-
BER OP THE BOARD; MRS. BETTY ELLIS, VICE PRESIDENT;
AND MRS. DOROTHY LONGUS, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, PRINCE
GEORGES COUNTY HEADSTART PARENT ADVISORY COMMITTEE
Reverend SMITH. `Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I urn not personally
making the statement. I wish to present the members of this panel who
are with us, who will be speaking for the community action program
in Prince Georges County.
I would like, first, to present Mrs. Caroline Wood, who is chairman
of the Community Action Committee of Prince Georges County.
Chairman PERKINS. We are anxious, Mrs. Wood, to hear all about
your community action `program out in Prince Georges County and
just what it embraces, how you feel about Headstart, the comprehen-
sive health programs, and how you are spending your money out there
and whether you have got a shortage of funds, and so forth.
Tell us all about that program.
Mrs. WOOD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I am Mrs. Caroline Wood, chairman of the `Community Action Corn-
mittee of Prince `Georges County, Md.
Our county is in the Washington metropolitan area, sharing the east-
ern and southern boundaries of the District of `Columbia. Our geo-
graphic area `consists of 486 square miles, with a distance of 42.5 miles'
between the northern and southern boundaries, and 11.5 miles between
its eastern and western ones. Our population is over 600,000. We are the
largest county in Maryland in population, and from time to time claim
the dubious distinction of being the fastest growing county in the
United States. Approximately 10 percent of our population is non-
white, with all but a small percentage of these `being Negroes.
While the greatest proportion of our population lives in predomi-
nantly urban areas, there are some rural areas within our boundaries;
rural in terms of density of population, lack of sewer and water facili-
ties, lack of public, transportation, and lack of employment opportuni-
ties. it is estimated "that in 1966, 5.7 percent of our population was at
or below the poverty level.
About 50 percent of our employed residents work in the District of
Columbia primarily for the Federal Government. Major employment
opportunities within the county are wholesale and retail trade, con-
struction, and manufacturing. `The median family income for our
county for 1966 is $10,200.
For the school year 1967-68, our public school enrollment was more
than 130,000 pupils, kindergarten through grade 12. Kindergarten at-
tendance is not compulsory. It is estimated that 86 percent of our kin-
dergarten-age children are enrolled in school.
I give this information on the county for background pertinent to
the work of the Community Action `Committee and the Community
Action agencies and programs in our county.
PAGENO="0440"
1872
Our Community Action Committee was designated by our county
commissioners as the group responsible for coordinating antipoverty
efforts in the county in 1965. At that time, we had a relationship to the
United Planning Organization of the Washington metropolitan area,
and all proposals were submitted to the Office of Economic Opportu-
nity through them. However, early in 1969, under the amendments to
the Economic Opportunity Act, the board of county commissioners
was designated as the Community Action agency for the county,' with
the Community Action Committee as the administrative agency.
Suffice it to say here `that our bylaws provide for a committee of 30
members, with one-third indigenous to the areas to be served, one-third
representatives of public agencies, and the remaining one-third from
the community at large.
`Since 1967, the funding for the office and staff of the Community.
Action Committee has been totally provided from county funds. This
direct funding for the current fiscal year is $105,582, plus supplemental
resources for a neighborhood action center. We are requesting county
funds in the amount of $178,088 for the coming fiscal year.
This local funding of the Community Action Committee and its staff
`and programs means we have been able to use available Office of Eco~
nomic Opportunity moneys for funding two neighborhood `organiza-
tions.
The fi~st is United Communities Against Poverty, which works with
residents of seven predominantly Negro communities, which contain
the greatest concentration of poverty within the county. The rate
ranges from 25 to 75 percent as among these communities.
The second neighborhood organization is Citizens Against Rural
Poverty,' which works with families in the less densely populated areas
of the county. It maintains three offices, one in the southern part of
the county, one in the northern part, and the third in a more central
area.'
As we look back on the efforts of the antipoverty program in our
county and the activities of the Community Action Committee, we can
see that their being in existence has had some positive effects in the
county. While we do not claim full responsibility, our interests helped
to bring about the establishment of a Community Development Depart-
ment within the county governmental structure. Its ftmction is to
coordinate what `other people and agencies are doing in the county, to
start new programs where needed, and to help apply for funds to start
these programs.
It submitted a proposal to the Department of Housing and Urban
Development for a model cities project for a geographical area which
includes the United Communities Against Poverty area.. The UCAP
staff and board, as well as those of the `Community Action Committee,
worked on task forces developing this proposal.
An open housing ordinance strongly backed by the Community Ac-
tion Committee, was passed by our county commissioners before the
Federal legislation was passed. A housing authority has `been estab-
`lished, whose `function it is to develop low-income housing and to
promote improvement and leasing of existing structures.
The Community Action `Committee, as well as United Communities
Against Poverty and Citizens Against Rural Poverty, have been influ-
ential in speaking out for decentralization of services, both from gov-
ernmental agencies and private social agencies. The Department of
PAGENO="0441"
1873
Social Services (formerly the county welfare department) has estab-
lished offices in outlying areas of the county.
The Health Department, in cooperation with the Board of Educa-
tion, has provided a mobile unit which is used for physicals, sight and
hearing examinations, and psychological examinations. It is used
wherever there are poor facilities or no facilities at all. It is also avail-
able to be used in any federally funded program.
The Maryland State Employment Service has established a branch
office within an area of high unemployment, which is also the county's
first model cities area. The two sta.ff members are now interviewing
many persons who were unable to travel to, or avoided, the main
office. A Community Action Committee employee works jointly with
them coordinating the Neighborhood Youth Corps function to employ
young people.
The Family Service Agency, a private family counseling agency,
has established a mobile unit which served the low-income segment of
our population where lack of public transportation to its central office
made its services unavailable. The Red Cross has conducted classes in
the Citizens Against Rural Poverty area in nutrition and home
nursing.
Follow Through, an extension of the Headstart educational concept,
operates at three schools in the county. It serves 218 children from
kindergarten through the third grade. Classes are conducted infor-
mally, as in Headstart. An inclusive part of this total program is local
parent groups, which meet to acquaint parents with the program. A
policy Advisory Committee includes parents from the local groups,
who review, define, and originate policies and practices.
The foster grandparent program was initiated in 1968; 30 senior
citizens provide individual attention and companionship for children
who are mentally retarded or have cerebral iialsy. Although each foster
grandparent is assigned two children, they work with them individu-
ally, on a 1-to-i basis at one of two centers. The foster ~randparent
tries to effect a normal, wholesome, grandparent-grandchild relation-
ship. How this is done depends on the child's age, needs, and handicap
severity. This unique program serves both the very young and the very
mature.
The Neighborhood Youth Corps program operates in three phases to
serve youth from 14 to 21 years of age. The in-school program provides
part-time employment and on-the-job training for students from low-
income families. The out-of-school program provides dropouts with
work experience and on-the-job training. These NYC's are encouraged
to resume their education or are assisted in improving their employ-
ability if they cannot or choose not to go back to school. The summer
prQgra~m provides students with job opportunities during the summer
months.
The Community Action agencies have been a positive link between
the poverty communities and the county government, which has meant
that citizens living in these communities have had a channel opened to
them for participation in the governmental process. This is an impor-
tant aspect of community organization and action, because it decreases
the sense of powerlessness, which is not just an attitude, but was a fact.
Based on this experience, we come before you today to voice our sup-
port for H.R. 513 for a 5-year extension of the Economic Opportunity
Act. I might say here that according to all that has been in the papers
PAGENO="0442"
1874
nnd circulated about this extension, I think we are aware that it
probably will not occur, but we want to `be on record as favoring a 5-
year extension. We sincerely feel that our county has moved to `aug-
ment Federal funding in a most positive manner, but th'at we need the
`support and innovative approach to community development which
the Office of Economic Opportunity has provided.
Moreover, we need the assurance that the concepts of valuable pro-
`grams will be carried on, rather than wonder if they will go from 1
,year to the next. We urge that the level of funding for community
`development or action be increased, and at the appropriate time we
~will support full funding of the authorization.
The other aspect of the Office of Economic Opportunity program
to which we wish to speak is the Headstart program. We feel that
this program has proven its value.
We have had a Headstart program in our county since the summer
of 1965. I myself have visited Headstart classes and seen the kind of
program offered to help the children prepare for entrance into the
regular school program. I have seen the commitment of the teachers,
the developing skill's of the teachers' aides, as we'll as the genuine inter-
est of the parents in the methods used in working with their children,
their pride in the accomplishments of their children, and the willing-
ness to be involved as parents.
The Headstart program for this summer is going to take place in our
county because interested parents appealed to our superintendent of
schools to submit a proposal making it possible. The whole program
of preparation for entrance into the regular school program, insistence
on parent participation, and comprehensive service.s beyond the strictly
educationa.l ones could not have happened without the innovative ap-
proach in the concept developed by the Office of Economic Oppor-
tunity.
Our Community Action Committee at its meeting in March discussed
`the question of transfer to `some agency other than, the Office of Eco-
`nomic Opportunity. The decision was that we were not in favor of such
a transfer. At this point it appears `probable that the administration
will delegate Headsta.rt to an Office of Child Development within the
Department of Health, Education, and Welfare. If this delegation be-
comes a reality, we cannot urge too strongly that the aspects of compre-
hensive services and parent involvement through the parent advisory
committees and other channels be retained.
We feel these are absolutely essential. We also urge in the strongest
way that the local community action committees retain the responsi-
bility of reviewing Hea'dstart and other similar program proposals
for funding.
In closing, let me say that the whole concept of the community action
program with `the loc.a~ countywide community action committee has
been one of the best things t'hat has happened in our county. We appre-
ciate the opportunity of appearing before you to present our evalua-
`tion, and to voice our hopes as to its future.
Reverend SMITH. Mr. Chairman, I would like at `this point to pre-
sent Mrs. Dorothy Longus, assistant secretary of the Headstart Ad-
visory Committee.
`Mrs. LONGUS. My name is Mrs. Dorothy Longus and I am assi~tant
secretary of Prince Georges Couiit Headstart Parent Advisory Com-
mittee and the mother of six children. As ~ Headstart parent, I feel
PAGENO="0443"
1875
qualified to say that to change Headstart from the Office of Economic
Opportunity to the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare
would be destroying what we as parents have been struggling for-
stronger, healthier, and more productive citizens.
Where in any Office of Education program do you find parents and
children working so closely in classroom activities? Where do you find
parents and teachers discussing their children's good behavior and
parents' problem situation after school? Where else are parents en-
couraged to come into the classroom at any time, not just when their
children have misbehaved? Where else are our parents provided trans-
portation to parent meetings, interesting discussion groups and corn-
munity meetings where we learn how to handle our children and our
own everyday problems?
Where in the Office of Education programs do you see parents and
children acting in plays together, planning trips together, working in
community ~projects and working for pay as classroom aides or will-
fully volunteering their services regularly?
Our children need to know that we care and how can we show we
care if we, as parents, are going to be kept in the dark again. In chang-
ing Headstart from the Office of Economic Opportunity, you are end-
ing the beginning of a new kind of parent, teacher, child and school
relationship that means so much to both our children and ourselves.
I beg you, please do not allow this to happen to us.
Reverend SMITH. Mr. Chairman, I would like to present at this
point Mrs. Ruth Wolf, a member of the community action committee.
Mrs. WOLF. I am Ruth S. Wolf, 5824 Carlyle Street, Cheverly, Md.
I have been directed to testify on behalf of the Prince Georges County
Community Action Committee, of which I have been a member since
its creatIon.
In addition, in 1968 I was appointed by then-Governor Agnew to a
6-year term on the Prince Georges' County Board of Education. Prior
`to this I was president of the County `Council of PTA's and earlier
president of the County League of Women Voters.
At our March community action committee meeting we voted, after
deliberation, to recommend that Headstart remain in the Office of
Economic Opportunity. That motion, incidentally, was made by me
and seconded by the Prince Georges' county superintendent of schools.
`Our school system is the 13th largest in the Nation with 140,000 stu-
dents in grades kindergarten through 12, with the total system ranging
from the Headstart age group to a 2-year community college.
There are two key words in the 1964 act, "economic" and "opportu-
nity." They described a hope and more, a goal, to give "economic oppor-
tunity." Others have descri'bed how much poverty exists, who are the
improverished and its overall effect.
We say America has more poverty than our body politic can con-
tinuously tolerate and be in good health. The debate is about how to
reduce poverty, not a'bout whether it exists.
My testimony reflects my views as a mother of four children, as a
citizen who has been more fortunate than most, and yet `as one who, as
a child, had my father suddenly passed away when I was nine leaving
my mother penniless with two small daughters to raise.
Out of my own experience, I believe we have a duty as a people and
a responsibility as a Nation to h'ave well-marked open doors in our
society into which people can come, Thus, by their own efforts, young
PAGENO="0444"
1S76
people will get the chance they deserve to learn and thus improve their
chances for success.
America needs the best it can get from its people. To get the best,
it needs to provide economic opportunity, and economic opportunity
`begins with education.
Headstart begins with the 3- to 5-ye.ar-o'lds. It is the place to start. A
child cannot decide when or where to be born. A child cannot determine
its environment. Thus, when that child reaches the age when more
formal school `begins, if he is already behind, his chances in the race
of life are already heavily handicapped. The child with average poten-
tial may never make his way, and, equally tragic for us as a nation~
the child with above-average potential may turn out to be just average.
Headstart, because it starts early, is really an "even start program."
It can give all of this next generation of America's children the op-
porturiity to make their best contribution to their country, if we fund
it for national action.
We can and must give equal opportunity based on ability to adults.
But too often it seems an empty gesture, if in their formative years
the hurdles on the course have been too high for many of) yesterday's
poorly educated children to jump. I{eadstart doesn't lower the hurdles.
Rather, it trains and equips youth to jump life's low hurdles by giving'
skill and training early in the game.
The public is sold on the merits of Headstart, and so, I hope, are
the members of this committee. Thus I will set forth Prince Georges
County's Community Action Committee's reasons for recommending
that }Ieadstart remain as part of the Office of Economic Opportunity.
The first is the role of the Economic Opportunity. Its unique contri-
bution has been to focus the conscience of all America on the needs of
the poor, to help to poor find the ways in which by their own efforts
they can help themselves.
The Office of Economic Opportunity has been a catalyst and an
action center for new ideas. To dismember the Office of Economic Op-
portunity, particularly by putting its successful ventures into the seem-
ingly proper niches of Government structure, may look tidy. The or-
ganization chart looks neat, but the innovative enterprise is deadened.
Our experience has been good. The Office of Economic Opportunity
has been cooperative. It has worked well with our professional edu-
cators. In fact, it has given them freedom to innovate, too.
Let me cite two progressive examples. There has long been talk of
getting parents "into the school." We have PTA's and the like. I know
them well. They aren't designed to meet the needs of the very poor.
The Office of Economic Opportunity reached out and said really
involve the parents. They set out some guidelines. We have followed
them and know they work. The parents are learning, too, and this
helps the child. Opportunity becomes a reality.
We can't go back to the old country school with the teacher taking
turns living with the students' families. The parent participation pro-
gram is the beginning of something better. Parents do love their chil-
dren and want for them a better life. By getting the parents really
involved, they are constantly and constructively encouraging their
children.
Second was the Office of Economic Opportunity's urging that we
use nonprofessional teacher aides.
PAGENO="0445"
1877
There were some initial reservations, but we tried it. We soon saw
it had wide benefits. The teacher can do more teaching and better
teaching. The aides sometimes are not even high school graduates, but
they are parents. The effect on the children, the teachers, and the par-
ent teacher aides were electric in kindling interest.
Words cannot describe the atmosphere, but any day you want, come
out and visit one of our Headstart classes and see what we mean. Our
in-service training and their work has rekindled the teacher aides'
own interest in education. Some have gone back to evening high school,
others are starting or continuing their college education.
We in Prince Georges County have found teacher aides so success-
ful that we now employ many and are employing ever-increasing num-
bers in programs completely outside the federally sponsored ones.
In summing up, therefore, I would urge you not only to keep an ade-
quately funded Headstart, but keep it in the Office of Economic Op-
portunity, because its innovative ideas, outside look at things, and its
requirements for community involvement are and have been a great
aid to education. And education, we all agree, is the one great hope
for America and for the world.
Reverend SMITH. Mr. Chairman, I would like to lastly present Mrs.
Betty Ellis, vice president of the Headstart Advisory Committee.
Mrs. ELLIS. My name is Mrs. Betty Ellis. I `am vice president of the
Prince Georges County 1-Ieadstart Parent Advisory Committee and
mother of five children.
Before I became involved with Hea'dstart, I had no idea what school
really meant to my children, or what they would `be doing in school. I
had attended PTA meetings, `but had not continued to do this because
all we did there was sit and talk. Much of this talk did not `apply to me
or my situation.
However, when my children entered Headstart, I started working
with other parents and teachers ai'des and s'aw how they helped to
te'ach my children leadership, understanding, and how to get along
with other children. I `also saw that because everyone worked together,
they would not be afraid to go to regular school. So, it goes without
saying that my children `have become better adjusted because of this
experience.
What has `this program `done for me? I feel a part `of the total Head-
start effort. From the beginning, I have felt that `all Headst'art staff
members were interested in me as a person, and that my ideas helped
not only myself and my `children, but others as well. Because of my
involvement in the classroom and experience in the parent group, I
have learned how to meet people, talk wi'th them, understand my re-
sponsibilities as a parent, and have learned to be a better mother to my
children.
At the Headstart meetings, we do not just sit `and talk, we work! We
work at `doing something to meet our children's needs and wants.
Because Hea'dstart is a Community Action program, I have learned
`about community resources. I have been to the Housing Authority to
apply for `aid under the leased housing program, `and we `have taken
part in `an `evaluation `conference, which looked at the whole `Commun-
ity Act'io'n effort in Prince Georges `County.
Along with `this, I have become `involved in my civic association and
have learned about other organizations that can `help me `an'd my fam-
PAGENO="0446"
1878
ily. This has come `about because people involved in Community Action
programs, other than Headst:art, were there and able to talk with me
about my problems.
Many other mothers that I know have also begun to feel like worth-
while people because of their involvement in a Community Action
effort. Because of this, I feel that Headstart is accomplishing much
more for me and my family than it would if the program was trans-
ferred to the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare.
Not `only is there taik of switching the Office of Economic Oppor-
tunity to the Department of Healt;h, Education, and Welfare, but
many parents are afraid that OEO will not be extended for the nest
5 years. Why is this? Why should they want to wipe out `an agency
that has convinced poor people that there is another way of life?
Wasn't OEO created because traditional agencies were not meeting
our needs? Do .they want to disband us because of its success? Why
should they want to disperse and organize when finally we start getting
together?
Martin Luther King, Jr., ha.d a dream. In my opinion, OEO is the
main agency that can help to make his dream real. I just don't under-
stand. Why do they want to undermine it or wipe it out?
I know that continuing OEO will be expensive, but millions, of dol-
lars are being sent to other countries and much money is being spent
to put men on the moon. Why aren't we as citizens of our country
worth as much?
As a parent and as a citizen, I would like to know why is all of this
happening. Do they really care about us? Do they really care about
me and the people who are in my situation or am I just part of the
political game?
Maybe if OEO had been created years ago, our country and espe-
cially young people wou1d not be upset as they are today. We should
have a chance to get together and prepare our children so that they
will not be handicapped in the future.
With the help of OEO and Community Action programs, can Amer-
ica afford to take this away from us? I want to become an aide and
work to make the Headstart effort and the Community Action pro-
gram a success. My being involved in the parent group has given me
the hope that I can better myself and give me the energy to go on.
Please don't take this away from me.
Reverend SMrrn. Mr. Chairman, this completes the testimony from
these persons from the Headstart Advisory Committee and the Prince
Georges Community Action Committee.
Chairman P1~axINs. Mr. Pucinski?
Mr. PucINsKI. Mr. Chairman, I would like to congratulate this
panel for the very concise statements they brought before the com-
mittee.
According to your statistics, Mrs. Wood, you have about 36,000
people in Prince Georges County that are living in poverty. You said
5.7 percent of your popalation was at or below the poverty level. You
say your population is 600,000.
So my clumsy calculations show that that is about 36,000. How many
of these people do you think the various programs which you have
enumerated here are actually being reached by `any one of these pro-
grams? Are you satisfied that every person in Prince Georges County
is being reached within your present resources?
PAGENO="0447"
1879
Mrs. WOOD. In answer to your question, I would say "No," we are not.
satisfied that everybody is being reached. I think we have done a tre-
mendous job in reaching people, but there certainly are people who
have not been reached. We would like to see our program expanded
really, continued and with even greater funding so we could do a more
adequate job.
Mr. PtrcINsKI. What is your usual occupation? What do you do be--
sides being chairman of the Prince Georges County Community Ac--
tion Committee?
Mrs. Woon. I am what is known as a volunteer. I am not a paid em--
ployee of my organization. I have worked in volunteer capacities with
many organizations in the county and I have served on the National'
Board of the League of Women Voters. That term is just over, but it'
is all on a volunteer basis.
Mr. PtroINsKI. Do you think that we can eliminate the problem in
Prince Georges County?
Mrs. WooD. I think if we work hard enough. at it and have adequate
financial support, yes, we could. One of the things that really needs to~
be done is to open, up more job opportunities. And I am sure you are
aware that in an area like this, which is a large geographic area, one
of the problems is transportation. Something very much more needs~
to be done in the way of transportation to get people to where they
can have jobs.
Mr. PuCINSKI. I was going to question you about that, or perhaps'
any member of the panel will want to add something. If they wish to~
do so, please do.
Prince Georges `County is one of the richest counties in the tTnited'
States, and you have, as you say here, your major employment sources
of retail trade, construction, and manufacturing. When I studied this'
subject, the information I obtained indicated `that the problem of:
transportation probably is your most serious problem. Many people
who are now in substandard jobs or are unemployed could find em-
ployment and could be trained for employment within Prince Georges
County or in the District of Columbia, if we had some means of trans-
portation for them.
What can we do to provide that transportation? What Is the answer?
But how do we get people who are tucked away in remote areas of"
the county into the labor pool?
Mrs. Woon. Let me give you my answer and then perhaps' somebody'
on the panel would like to answer it further.
We may not all agree, but I think it shows that we are thinking'
about it. One of the real problems in the county is that, for the most
part, public transportation comes into the District of Columbia. So it"
comes in and goes out. But there is very little cross-county' transpor-
tation. This is one of our real problems.
You ask what we can do. I suppose you know we really ha've to work"
with the public bus companies to get them to provide more cross-county'
transportation.
Mr. PucINsKI. What about car pools? Are we working- on that at"
all?
Mrs. WooD. I think car pools are used, but if a person: dOesn't' have a':',
car, you know, it is no help to be in a car pool.
PAGENO="0448"
1880
Mr. PucINsKI. That is, of course, correct, and you are right. We
have provisions in this bill for providing low-interest loans and short-
term loans to people in rural areas to help them.
The difficulty here is the lack of really effective mass transit system.
I would think that this bill ought to be flexible enough to assist people
with no means of getting to work through some guaranteed loan or
some other program.
Has anything been done to try and solve the transportation problem
through means other than waiting for the transit companies to install
more buses?
Reverend. SMITH. If I could speak to that, Congressman, yes, some-
thing is being done. As a matter of fact, through our community action
programs we have been able to very clearly indicate the need in this
area. As a result of the need that does exist and a proven need, the
county has, in fact, designated a person who is at the moment working
on a solution to the problem.
We admit that we don't have the solution, but we believe there are
solutions.
Mr. PUGIN5KI. We have no problem transporting 55 percent of the
children in this country from their homes to their schools where there
is no transportation available. We have set up transportation, we have
set up busing services and various other things.
In some parts of the city of Chicago we were recently faced with this
problem. We have a good transit system now. In the old days we used
to have jitneys that would pick up 10 or 12 people and haul them out
to their destination. I wonder why can't we use a little more imagina-
tion in meeting problems?
I know there is no simple answer here. I am well aware of this. I
have sat in on these hearings and I have worked closely with this
program.
In Chicago some of the private employment agencies have helped to
get people to work at O'Hare Field, which is quite a job in transporta-
tion. They have their own bus service. When you are out on the express-
way in the morning you see these employment agencies running their
private bus service to deliver people from a central assembly point to
the job site. Then they bring them back.
It just seems to me that we ought to be working in those directions.
Is the bill flexible enough to let you do these things?
Reverend S~IITIi. I am really not quite sure, sir. I must admit that
I am not as familiar with the bill as I should be to answer that question.
But I would like to say, further, in this whole matter of our local situa-
tion we are providing some transportation through our rural poverty
program in that we have purchased some three Volkswagen buses that
do some of this.
Of course, the employers have another out in that transportation
from the District is much more easier to come by than the transporta-
tion in the county. It is much more simple to transport people from
the District of Columbia to places of employment.
In many studies and demonstration projects that are being done are
being done to provide the transportation from the District into the
suburbs rather than in the suburbs themselves.
Mr. PUOINSKI. I think it is going to take all the resources and our
ingenuity to solve this problem, because this country is going into a
trillion dollar economy. We can't afford une~nployed people. The
PAGENO="0449"
1881
country can't afford it. The economy needs all our citizens. We have to
start thinking of more innovative ways of delivering people from one
place to another.
Reverend SMITH. We certainly couldn't agree with you more. We
feel OEO provides us the opportunity for that kind of innovation.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Buckley?
Mr. BUCKLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to commend the panel and the program in Prince
Georges County. I have had an opportunity to talk with some of you
about your programs. It is significant that the community action
agency in that county is fully funded with local money.
Could we address ourselves to Headstart and to the chairman of your
board, please.
I would ask the question, when you met in March, your board con-
sidered their position on the delegation of the Headstart program from
OEO?
Mrs. WOOD. Yes, sir, we did.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Did you take a vote on it?
Mrs. WOOD. Yes.
Mr. BUCKLEY. What was the vote on it?
Mrs. WOOD. I don't remember exactly how many. It was unanimous.
But there were a couple of people absent out of the total committee.
But it was a unanimous vote as being opposed to that.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Have you formally considered and taken a vote on
the delegation of the program from OEO since March?
Mrs. WOOD. No, we have not.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Were you aware when you took your vote and when
you discussed the possible delegation of where the program was going
to be delegated and what the office was and what the makeup of that
division was going to be?
Mrs. WOOD. We were to the extent that there had been information
in the newspapers about it, yes.
Mr. BUCKLEY. It is true that the message which told about the dele-
gation and how it was to be constituted and how it was to be structured
wasn't announced until April 9?
Mrs. WooD. There had been information in the newspapers before
that, because I had seen it and other members of the committee had
seen it. There could have been circulation. I am not saying there was
not.
Reverend SMITH. There had also been an indication of a possibility
of a department or something of the sort of early childhood develop-
ment within HEW. There was no official word which had been re-
ceived at least by our committee at that point, but we had in fact that
kind of information along with the bits and pieces we had picked up
from news articles.
Mr. BUCKLEY. 1 don't mean to contradict you, and I know that we
discussed it on April 9 and we didn't know at that time that there
would be an Office of Child Development.
Reverend SMITH. We heard there would be a specific division in
HEW. I think we mentioned that when we met in Mr. Hogan's office.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Do you feel that you will oppose the delegation of
Headstart from OEO at anytime?
Mrs. WooD. I don't want to sit here and say we would oppose it any
time. I think at this time we oppose it. If it is going to be delegated to
27-754-69-pt. 3-29
PAGENO="0450"
1882
anotheragency and that delegation occurs, I think we would look at
it very carefully in terms of what is happening in our country and if
it seemed to us that the good things that have happened under the
Headstart program since it has been under OEO did not continue, we
would oppose its continuing under this new arrangement.
I think we would be remiss in our responsibility as a committee if
we didn't continue to look at the program wherever it is. And we want
it to be where it is going to operate to the best advantage of all the
people involved in it.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Have you taken a closed mind on the subject that
this program conceivably could be operated as well and perhaps
strengthened if it were transferred to an agency which had much
broader concepts and would add programs to the Headstart concept in
the Office of Child Development?
Mrs. WOOD. I think if you review what I have just said, it does not
indicate that we have a closed mind.
Mr. BUCKLEY. How many children do you have in your programs in
the county?
Mrs. WOOD. In Headst.art? V
Mr. BUCKLEY. Yes. V V V
Reverend SMITH. In the year-round program there are 195.
Mr. BUCKLEY. How many different components is that, how many
different programs?
Reverend SMITH. We have one year-round program and one sum-
mer program. V
Mr. BUCKLEY. Y es. but. aren't they run by different sponsors?
Reverend S~1lTEV. All of our Headstart is run by the board of educa-
tion, of which Mrs. Wolf is a member. V
Mr. BUCKLEY. In other words, all of your children enrolled ~flV the
school facilities are in the Headstart program? V
V Reverend SMITH. The board of education is the delegate agency for
running all HeadstaVrt programs in the county. V
Mr. BUCKLEY. If as the Secretary of V HEW has said, and Mr. V ~Tules
Sugarman, former Director of HeaVdstart in the Office of Economic
Opportunity, hVave promised that all of the features that have devel-
oped in Headstart are all going to be retained in the Office of Child
Development, including the manner of funding and the citizen partici-
pation and the parent V participation. teachers. aides and it will be
funded at the same level. What is it that you fear will be lacking or
will be. dropped, if another agency in the Government other than OEO
administers it?
Reverend S~nTIri. Could I just reverse that slightly and say that if.
in fa~t. all of the parts of HeadstVaVrt are going to be retained, wily
transfer it? If it is going to be essential to the same community action
program, as it presenth is involved and administered by an innovative
agency, then why the transfer?
Mr. BUCKLEY. Do you feel that OEO is conceived as an operational
agency?
Reverend SMITH. It has been. I am not sure of ~tVS conceptions.
Mr. BUCKLEY. If they are to be an operating agency and to operate
a variety of programs, what energy a1~d effort and concentration will
there be in the a~iency to innovation and to the starting up of new pro-
grams and new ideas? V
PAGENO="0451"
1883
Reverend SMITH. I think we have seen some evidence of this. We
have seen some innovation in OEO. We have seen the kind of flexi-
bility in the agency that we have not seen, for example, in the Office
of Education. I think these mothers here today, for example, spoke to
their involvement in the Headstart program unlike any involvement
that they have experienced before, because it is a community action
program, as a matter of fact, rather than just an early childhood edu-
cation program.
But it addresses the needs of the total family and especially involves
the parents of the children in the program.
I think this is a kind of innovation that is peculiar, if you will, to
OEO and we have not seen it before. But if this is something that is
going to continue in some other agency, then it seems to me there is no
reason to transfer from that agency in which it was conceived.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Will we leave the programs there and will they be
enlarged and expanded and become an operational agency?
Reverend SMITH. I see no reason why there should not be an en-
largement in the program. I think in Prince Georges County we would
be anxious to have enlargement.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Do you think Headstart would be better enlarged,
expanded in the Office of Economic Opportunity with its limited re-
sources than in the Offices of HEW and Office of Child Development
that has far more resources?
Reverend SMITH. If we are going to limit the resources of OEO, yes.
But if we are going to strengthen the OEO as an entity and provide
the resources `to make it a viable entity, I see no reason to transfer.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Do you plan to have another meeting of the board
and discuss the delegation and take a vote On it?
Mrs. WooD. Our board meets once a month.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Will you bring the question up again?
Mrs WOOD If it becomes necessary, we will
Mr. BUCKLEY. It seems that you made a; judgment and made `a de-
cision before you knew what the particulars were of a program that
the administration saw fit to delegate to another agency and you are
going to stand by that position and not bring it up again since you
have become aware of the details of it?
Mrs. WooD. Mr. Buckley, I did not say that. I said if it became neces-
sary for us to review our position, we would do so. Our committee
meets once a month. The fourth Wednesday in every month it meets.
I would be happy to have you come. If we feel it is necessary to re-
view our position, we will do so. I am not going to sit here and promise
that we are going to do it, because it is not my decision to make. It is
the committee's decision. If the committee feels it is necessary, there
will be opportunity to do so.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Thank you.
Mr. PUCINSKI. Mr. Chairman, I would like to congratulate Mrs.
Wood on that last statement. With all due respect to the gentleman,
the administration has suggested several major changes in this pro-
gram, but has really not given us any alternatives.
The Labor Department is now in the process of shutting down 58
Job Corps centers across the country `and I would certainly be agree-
able to reviewing the continuation of these Job Corps centers, if I
saw a meaningful, workable, effective `alternative that `the Department
PAGENO="0452"
1884
of Labor has presented :to the Congress and to the people that would
fuffihl the need `more effectively and cheaper.
The administration is going to shut down 58 JOb Corps centers that
are now on-going, doing a job in which we have a huge capital invest-
ment and they are going to replace them with 30 skill centers that
aren't even~ on the drawing board yet and run directly in conflict with
the Vocational Education Act of 1968.
In He'a'dstart we have the same situation. We know the results we
are getting. We know where these youngsters are going.
We have an on-going program that is universally accepted as a good
program. Even the Secretary of HEW was constrained the other day to
denounce `the Westinghouse report as badly written, badly prepared
and rejected it `as an instrument for guidance of this committee.
Yet, we see `today a plan being offered to move Headstart. Where?
Who is going to run it? Where are they going to run it?
I know what the Hea.dstart program is doing. I know that witness
after witness has come before this committee and said this is one of
the best parts of the war on poverty. It just seems to me that the
administration, if it is going to phase these programs or transfer them
out, must give itself sufficient leadtime to offer substitute programs.
But until I see the sitbstitute programs, I would be constrained to
oppose any changes in the present programs.
Thank you.
Chairman PERKINS. Let me say that I am in accord with the obser-
vation made `by `the gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Pucinski. I want to
compliment `all of you for coming here today and giving the coin-
mittee the benefit of your views.
If a program is wor~ng well, and Mr. Smith hit the nail on the
`head, why transfer it? You have made your point and it has been very
helpful to the committee.
We thank all of you.
Mrs. WOOD. Could I also just point out to you that all the people
sitting over on this side of the room are people in some way or other
`connected with the program in Prince Georges County.
Chairman PERKINS. I am delighted to welcome `all of you here today.
`Come around, Mrs. R'heable Edwards, Heacistart `director, Action
for Boston Community Development, Boston, Mass.
We are delighted to welcome you here. I notice you have `a prepared
statement. Without objection, your prepared statement will be inserted
in the record.
(Statement follows:)
PREPARED STATEMENT OF MRS. RHEABLE M. EDWARDS, DIRECTOR, HEADSTART,
ACTION FOR BOSTON COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT, INC., BOSTON, MASS.
HIGHLIGHTS OF HEADSTAET
There is considerable evidence that the cumulative effects of poverty and
racism upon the child during his most crucial years of growth and development
deprive him of self-confidence and impair motivation for learning. In recogni-
tion of this fact, Head Start provides for the pre-school child of poverty a com-
prehensive program including meaningful daily classroom activities, medical and
dental care, good nutrition, social and psychological services for the child and
his family, and a self-help approach of parent and community involvement.
The unique feature of Head Start is its comprehensive service to the family,
with focus on the child. Therefore, Head Start includes the involvement of parents
as employees in the program, in the planning and implementation of the program,
PAGENO="0453"
1885
and in career development opportunities. Its comprehensive, interdisciplinary
approach `and its community action concept are geared toward effecting social
change and providing broad family benefits which will help to break the poverty
cycle. Also, the program content, methodology, and training techniques of Head
Start serve as a catalyst to upgrade the existing school system-as well as day
care.
THE EFFECTIVENESS OF HEADSTART
Head Start is more than a classroom-centered program; therefore, any evalua-
tion of it necessarily includes more than its effect upon the children. Because the
program features the involvement of parents in program planning and imple-
mentation, decentralized program operation, `and the inclusion of personnel with
qualifications other `than traditional academic training, the program's effective-
ness is difficult to measure. Has the parent's feeling of self-worth and self-respect
been increased, which in turn leads to greater confidence in one's ability to effect
social change? The Westinghouse Head Start report has attempted to deal with
the research issue.
According to news reports, there appears to be considerable controversy con-
cerning the experimental design, conclustons, and intent of the Westinghouse
Report. Since I have been unable to obtain the report, I am unable to comment
upon `it `specifically. However, because of the controversy surrounding the report,
I will comment upon the entire issue of research With respect to the population
served by Head StaTE and upon the specific issue of criteria for judging the
effectiveness of a comprehenSive program which deals with human development.
In my opinion, most research concerning the poor and the Black in general has
been oriented to `the needs of those doing the research rather than to the needs of
those being researched. It is interesting that very few `studies concern themselves
with a comparative analysis of different methods to remedy the problems of the
poor and Black while a great number of studies have concerned themselves with
the focusing on how `the poor and Black differ from the white middle class norm.
In addition, the validity of their identifications `is an issue.
Many of `the conclusions drawn from `such research `suggest that the onus of
poverty and racism `is to be placed on the poor and the Black themselves. My
opinion, as supported by the Kerner Report, Kenneth Clark studies, and others,
is that the causes of such problems are due to the pervasive influence of racism,
class prejudice and lack of money. Head Start attempts to deal with these prob-
lems by providing the children, even for just a short period of time, with respect
and service. However, one cannot then send the child out into a system whose
attitudes and services remain unchanged and expect the child not to be adversely
affected. Head Start, a's the name implies, is only a start; revolutionary changes
have to be made `in `th'e systems beyond Head Start unless there is a desire to
continue to stunt the physical, cognitive, ned emotional growth of children.
After separating out the elements of racism and poverty, the educational bene-
fits of Head Start can be dealt with: the total gamut of psychological, economic,
social, historical and educational problems must be considered in preparing Head
Start children to overcome class and race barriers. These barriers have resulted
in denial of educational opportunity to the families of Head Start children.
According to statistics presented March 7, 1969 to an Advisory Committee to
Secretary Finch on the placement of Head Start in Health, Education, and Wel-
fare, the majority of the children served in Full-Year Head `Start are non-white,
with the largest single group being black. For example, in 1966 Full-Year, 42.2%
of the children were Black and 25.2% were white; in 1967 Full-Year, the number
of Black children served increased to 51.2%, while the number of whites decreased
to 23.8%.1 Clearly, Black children are the largest group served by Head Start.
Therefore, it is extremely important that the distinction between poverty and
racism be clearly understood.
POVERTY AND RACISM
Poverty is an economic condition. Racism was legitimized by the Kerner Report
in 1968 as the central domestic problem of this country. The insidious tendency to
make "poor" synonymous with Black and the use of such terms as "culturally
deprived," "disadvantaged," and "under-privileged" imply that the entire culture
of the people so categorized has nothing of worth and needs to be replaced by
something "better" or "right." In other words, emphasis has always been on mak-
ing non-white people fit the dictates of the white middle-class America. Reaction
1 Basic program facts-by fiscal year, HEW, Mar. 7, 1969.
PAGENO="0454"
1886
to this practice is manifested today through efforts towards change by many
Blacks in various settings around the country-on college campuses, in the
churches, in the community, in the streets, in the organization of all-Black
professional groups (e.g. social workers, educators, and psychiatrists), in high
school student demonstrations, and in other ways.
The Black child's pre-school handicap is not related primarily to education,
but to how Black people are treated in this country. The problem is presently
defined by whites, and in the opinion of many Black people, this definition
acommodates subverting the real issue, racism, to a more palatable one, poverty.
Expecting Head Start to be an antidote to racism is simply one more away of
evading the real issue.
The damaging effects of racism on the child cannot be dealt with effectively
by surrounding Head Start with some science, or by making it available to chil-
dren at an earlier age, or by more research as to how to improve their lives and
theirminds. 1~Tothing short of a national commitment to an all-out effort to creat-
ing new resources and utilizing cristing ones in ways that will allow Black
people to define their own problems and have the power to implement solutions
will make a dent in reducing racism. This kind of institutional reform will facili-
tate change in the white institutionalized conceptions of Blacks. Remedial educa-
tion for the larger white society, rather than for Blacks and for the poor, is the
overriding need for this country.
Poverty requires its own special attention. First, it must be recognized that
rascism is a cause of poverty and that as long as there is racism, there will be
poverty. Over and above this, nothing short of a guaranteed annual income with
a built-in escalated cost-of-living adjustment will make a meaningful impact
upon poverty in this country.
NEW AGENCY REQUIRED FOR EARLY CHILDHOOD DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMS
It has been established that the need now, as in 19G~, for the successful
operation of Head Start is for a new concept, which will include an unbiased atti-
tude toward minority groups, an understanding of the nature of poverty and an
unbiased attitude toward the poor. Early childhood development for the poor and
minority group children throughout the nation is a distinct problem and issue
warranting the kind of special attention that only a separate and newly-designed
governmental agency could adequately tackle. Only a new agency can generate
the enthusiasm, imagination and drive needed to develop the seed which can
~ead to a renaissance in public school education. A new agency would not be
limited by the rigidity, resistance, and lack of innovation of an agency oriented
toward either social work or education. A multi'-disciplinary approach is needed.
The local educational institutions have become monopolies on public education,
often resulting in present day opponents of change, isolated from the community
and rigidly controlled by exclusive interest groups. A new agency would provide
an alternative structure, not to compete with local school systems, but to do some
of the things that the existing educational agencies are structurally unable to do
liecause their concept of education is too narrowly defined and because of tradi-
~tional commitments, established policies and procedure. Dr. Kenneth Clark talks
~f the problems of the educational monopoly and suggests: "The rigidity of pres-
cut patterns of public school organization and the concomitant stagnation in
quality of education and academic performance of children may not be amenable
to any attempts at change working through and within the present system."2
Persons who would be involved in the creation and staffing of such an agency
must also be persons with direct experience and/or comprehensive knowledge
about the way of life and history of the poor and non-white minorities in this
country-persons with innovative ideas and demonstrated success in working
with communities of this nature.
Any agency that is to deal with a substantial number of non-white people must
have as its primary focus reversing the effects of racism in this society. The
success of a new agency is dependent upon how well the head of the agency un-
derstands and can relate to both white culture and non-white cultures. Since
non-whites must live and work in a white society, many have come to understand
white culture; however, the reverse is not true. Therefore, if the conditions
2 Kenneth B. Clark, "Alternative Public School Systems: A Response to America's Edu-
cational Emergency." National Conference on Equal Educational Opportunity in America's
Cities, Washington, D.C., Nov. 16-18, 1967, P. 14.
PAGENO="0455"
1887
described above as fundamental to the success of Head Start are to be met, this
new agency must `be headed by a Black man. Moreover, be must have the commit-
ment and creativity demanded by such `a position. , ,
BASIC CONCERNS RE CONTINUATION AND ADMINISTRATION OF HEADSTART
The wide enth'usi'as~ for Head Start by the children i'n the program, by their
parents, by sponsors of and workers in the program, and by the general public
attests to `the worth of Head Start. Thi'spoin't of view was strongly held also by
the Advisory Committee to Secretary Finch aild reported to him as follows:
"The Committee believes that the accomplishments of Head Start to date have
been substantial and, while recognizing. the need for further improvement in the
program, it strongly urges that it be continued, strengthened, and expanded."
I strongly recommend that the societal conditions described above be taken
into account in considering the needs of minority groups and of the poor in this
country. Particularly:
Creation of new resources and the use of existing ones in ways which will allow
Black people to define their own problems and have the power to implement
solutions.
A guaranteed annual income with a built-in escalated cost-of-living adjustment.
In this connection also, I `cite the following recommendation of the Headstart
A'dvisory Committee to Secretary Finch:
"The Committee also believes that problems of parent and child development,
especially' among the poor and minority groups, encompass many other areas
than that dealth with by Ileadstart. They should receive increased attention and
resources by Federal, State and local governments. In particular the Committee
urges that the Federal Government increase sharply the proportions of its re-
sources which are devoted to parent and child development."
On April 9th, Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare, Robert H. Finch,
announced that "be will operate Project Headstart through a new Office of Child
Development which will be located in his immediate office and report directly to
him."
Secretary Finch is to be commended for his appointment of an Advisory Com-
mittee, including parents and minority group representation, on the placement
of Headstart in HEW. He is to be commended further for his sensitivity to and
acceptance of this Committee's recommendations. However, I have grave concern
that no action has yet been reported on the following two recommendations:
A new position of Assistant Secretary be created to head up the new Office of
Child Development.
In line with the thesis set forth in this paper, I strongly urge that `this new
position be established.
Establishment of an on-going Advisory Committee with substantial representa-
tion of Head Start parents to assist the Secretary in organizing and staffing the
new Office; reviewing other `programs to determine if transfer is advisable; speci-
fying the responsibilities of the new Ass't Secretary, and advising on the pro-
cedures whereby Head Start will be delegated from OEO to HEW.
As the delegation process is already under way and the other tasks should be,
I recommend that this Advisory Committee be formed IMMEDIATELY.
I recommend legislative action to assure:
that the Office of Child Development will always report directly to the
Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare;
a new Assistant Secretary position to head up the Office of Child Develop-
ment;
a Head Start Advisory Committee with at least one-third of its member-
ship parents of children in the program, and officials responsible for opera-
tion of programs at the local level, and persons experienced in child de-
velopment.
The comprehensive, interdisciplinary approach and other unique. features of
Head Start should be maintained: parents should be involved in `a policy advisory
role and as employees. Training and career development aspects of Head Start
`should receive increased attention as a highly effective and economical means of
simultaneously helping people and reaching several public objectives. `It is recom-
mended that parent involvement be a condition to any federal grant for child de-
velopment and education programs. `
All research on Headstart to date has emphasized the failure of Headstart
children to retain whatever gains made. It is vital, therefore, `that public school
PAGENO="0456"
188S
education be strengthened. The Elementary and Secondary Education Act, Titles
I and III in particular, should be fully utilized to provide parent involvement,
innovative materials, new techniques, a strong Follow-Through program and
various other improvements.
Flexibility and variety in operations must be maintained if we are to improve
services in the field of child development. This includes: (1) freedom of local
sponsors to contract with various local institutions for Headstart services; (2)
local options in the selection and structure of program components; and (3)
development of a wide variety of different approaches.
Many families are denied the benefits of Headstart because their income slight-
ly exceeds that necessary for program eligibility. Because of the wide variance
in the cost of living throughout the country, and because the poverty line estab-
lished is inconsistent with the affluence of this country, it is strongly recom-
mended that family income requirements for eligibility be extended to include
more of the poor.
There are very serious implications involved in the suggestion that school
systems collaborate with community groups using Headstart funds in order to
provide a more comprehensive Child Development program. It appears quite im-
practical to consider that school systems, many of which are filled with racist
elements and riddled with political factionism and issues of community control,
will suddenly accept with open arms a cooperative set of arrangements with
community people. Leverage gi-anted a coordinating force is a minimum requii-e-
ment for tackling this problem.
While I personally feel that in-depth research is unnecessary and implies an
inherent inferiority of the children ~erved, `I strongly concur that good evaluation
is needed in order to improve the program. For good evaluation, appropriate and
releVant standards of measurement most be developed and conducted, with a
heavy input by representatives of the groups evaluated. Review teams must be
composed of persons long experienced with Head Start programs and knowl-
edgeable about a i-ariety of circum'stances in different communities. In many
cases we know more about programs than the review teams sent to assist and
evaluate us; there is no credibility in such procedures.
Increasing experimenftai programs for children from 0-3 years of age raises
serious questions as to the direction in which we are moving. Head Start should
be supportive of family structure, not a supstitute. Emphasis should be placed
on improving the environment so that families can be strengthened.
The inclusion of Day Care in the Office of Child Development is a logical and
necessary step in creating a vehicle for strengthening family life. It is expected
that Head Start will continue to be a spur to the public school system and to
social agencies in hastening the development of new techniques and demon-
strating the importance of community involvement. It is hoped also that Head
Start will be an `example to other public and `private resources In its unprece-
dented involvement of Black people at all levels `of planning and operation.
`I wish to express my appreciation for the opportunity to appear before this
Committee `and ahare my opinion on these crucial issue's about which I am deeply
concerned. I humbly implore that you use your good office to insure that the above
recommendations are expedited in the interest of the population affedted, and in
the best interest of this country.
Mas. RHEABLE M. EDWARDS
Mrs. Edwards is presently employed at ABOD as Director of Boston's Head-
start Program. She joined the organization in 1965 and was a major contributor
to developing Boston's Community Action Program.
Her educational background includes: A.B. Degree, with `a Major in Social
Sicence from Philander Smith College, Little Rock, Arkansas; MA. Degree in
English from Atlanta University, Atlanta, Georgia; and M.S. in S.S. from Boston
University `School of Social Work, with Community Organization Specialty.
Mrs. Edwards' professional experience encompasses the areas of social work,
planning, administration, and teaching. Prior to coming to ABCD, Mrs. Edwards
was Director of the Massachusetts Society for Social Health, responsible for
administration and program development. She served as an administrative
assistant in management for the Boston Housing Authority, and Community
Organization Specialist for the Boston Parks and Recreation Commission. She
has `taught school on the primary, secondary and college levels.
Mrs. Edwards' professional affiliations are: member of the National Association
of Social Workers, Academy of Certified Social Workers and the Adult Education
Association.
PAGENO="0457"
1889
Her civic affiliations include: member of the Board of Directors, Boston YWCA
and of the Family Service Association of Greater Boston; and member, Advisory
Committee on Child Day Care Services, `Department of Education, and the Massa-
chusetts Committee on Children and Youth. She formerly held office in the
Greater Boston Council of Girl Scouts, Inc., the United Negro College Fund, and
the Intergroup Relations Council of Greater Boston. She has long been active
with NAACP, having served as a Vice-President, Chairman of Housing Commit-
tee and of *other committee's. A favorite activity was leader of a Senior Girl
Scout Troop.
Mrs. Edwards' variety of experience has brought her in direct contact with
social conditions related to racism and poverty in the Boston area. She is Co-
Author of The Negro in Boston, 1961, a background paper toward the formation
of ABCD.
Chairman PERKINS. You proceed in any manner you prefer.
STATEMENT OF RHEABLE M. EDWARDS, DIRECTOR, HEADSTART,
ACTION FOR BOSTON COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT, INC., BOSTON,
MASS.
Mrs. EDWARDS. With your permission, I would like `to read first from
my prepared statement.
My name `is Rheable Edwards, director `of the Heftdstart program
for Boston, at the local community `action agency for that city, which
is Action for Boston Community `Development.
I `have `been with that agency since 1963 and `helped `to develop the
antipoverty program for that city, `and was the first `and `only director
of Headstart for that city.
I would like to read a similar statement, `and perhaps refer to parts
of the body of the statement `as the need seem's to arise. I have some
particular concerns, some basic concerns regarding the continuation
and the administration `of Headstart. The wide enthusi'asm f'or Head-
start `by the children in the program, by their parents, by sponsors of,
an'd workers `in, the program, and by the general public, `attest to the
worth of Head'start.
This point of view w'a~s strongly held also by the A'dviso'ry Com-
mittee to Secretary Finch `and reported to him `as follows:
I neglected to `say that I was one of the members `of the nationwide
Advisory Committee appointed `by Mr. Finch to `advise him `as to
where Headstart would go. As that committee stated, the committee
believes that the `acconaplishments `of Hea'dstart `to date have been sub-
stantial `and, while recognizing the need for further improvement in
the program, it strongly urges that it be continued, strengthened, and
expanded.
I `strongly recommend that the societal condition described above
be taken into account in considering the needs `of minority groups `and
of the poor in this `country.
I would like t'o cite some of those social conditions that are more
fully ecplained in th'e paper. According to statistics presented March 7,
1969, `to an A'dvisory `Committee to Secretary Finch on the placement
of He'adstart in HEW, the majority of the children served in full-year
Headstart are `nonwhite with the largest single group `being black.
For example, in the 1966 full year, 42.2 percent of the children were
black and 25.2 percent were w'hite. In the 1967 full year, the number of
black children served increased to 51.2 percent, while the number of
whites decreased to 23.8 percent. Clearly, black thil'dren are the largest
PAGENO="0458"
1890
group served by Headstart. Therefore, it is extremely important the
distinction between poverty and racism be clearly understood.
Poverty is an economic condition. Racism was legitimatized bythe
Kerner report in 1968 as a central domestic problem of this country.
The insidious tendency to make "poor" synonymous with "black" and
such terms as culturally deprived, disadvantaged, and underprivi-
leged imply that the entire culture of the people so categorized has
nothing of worth and needs to be replaced by something better or
right.
In other words, emphasis has always been on making nonwhite
people fit to dictates of the white middle-class America. Reaction to
this practice is manifested today through efforts to a change by many
blacks in various settings around the country, on college campuses, in
the churches, in the commimity, in the streets, in the organization of
all black professional groups such as social workers, educators and
psychiatrists, in high school student demonstrations and in other ways.
The black child's preschool handicap is not really primarily to edu-
cation, but to how black people are treated in this country. The prob-
lem is presently defined by whites and in the opinion of many black
people, this definition accommodates subverting the real issue, racism,
to a more palatable one, poverty.
Expecting Headstart to be an antidote to racism is simply one more
way of evading the real issue. The damaging effects of the racism on
the child cannot be dealt with effectively by our surrounding Head-
start with some science or by making it available to children at an
earlier age or by more. research as to how to improve their lives and
their minds.
Nothing short of a national commitment to an all-out effort to creat-
ing new resources and utilizing existing ones in ways that will allow
planning people to define their own problems and have the power to
implement solutions will make a dent in reducing racism.
This kind of institutionalized reform will facilitate change in the
white institutionalized conceptions of blacks. Remedial education for
the larger white society rather than for blacks and for the poor is the
overriding need of this country.
Poverty requires its own special attention. First, it must be recog-
nized tha.t racism is a cause of poverty and that as long as there is
racism, there will be poverty.
Over and above this, nothing short of a guaranteed annual income
with a built-in escalated cost-of-living adjustment will make a mean-
ingful impact upon poverty in this country.
Mr. PuCIN5KI. How do you propose to have that work? What is your
concept of a guaranteed annual income and technically how would
you have it work?
Mrs. EDWARDS. I am not prepared to work that out technically, be-
cause I really came to testify on Headstart. This is merely background
material. My point is `to point out how poverty is one of the funda-
mental causes here.
Mr. PuGINSKI. But I want to make sure that I understand what
we mean by guaranteed annual wage. What do you mean by that?
Mrs. EDWARDS. I would rather continue with the Headstart aspect
of it and I would be. happy to come back another time to testify on
means of eliminating poverty, if you like, sir.
PAGENO="0459"
1891
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead on the Iieadstart. You are making a
good statement.
Mrs. EDWARDS. On April 9; the Secretary of Health, Education, and
Welfare, Robert Finch, announced that he "will operate Project Head-
start through a new Office ~f Child Development, which will be lo-
cated in his immediate office and report directly to him."
Secretary Finch is to be commended for *his appointment of an
advisory committee, including parents and minority group represen-
tation on the placement of Headstart in HEW. He is to be commended,
furthermore, for his sensitivity to `and acceptance of this committee's
recommendations.
However, I have grave concern that no action has yet been reported
on the following two recommendations: A new position of Assistant
Secretary to be created to head up the new Office of Child Develop-
ment. In line with the thesis set forth in this paper, I strongly urge
that this new position be established with establishment of an on-going
advisory committee with substantial representation of Headstart par-
ents to assist the Secretary in organizing and staffing the new Office,
reviewing other programs to determine if transfer is advisable, speci-
fying the responsibilities of the new Assistant Secretary and advising
on the procedures whereby H'eadstart will be delegated from OE'O to
HEW.
As the delegation process is already underway and the other tasks
should be, I recommend that the advisory committee be formed
immediately.
I recommend legislative action to assure, (1) that the Office of Child
Development will always report directly to the Secretary of Health,
Education, and Welfare; (2) that a new Assistant Secretary position
be created to `head up the Office of Child `Development; and, (3) that
a He'adstart advisory committee be elected with at least one-third of its
membership parents of children `in the program, officials responsible
for operation of programs at the local level, and persons experienced
in chi'ld development.
I might comment on this `advisory committee. I feel that it is crucial
to have that kin'd of committee out of citizen participation, particularly
in light of the administration's `annnounced intent to have a sort of
policymaking board composed of `senior staff members. It seems to me
that it would be pretty impossible to make any meaningful change with
senior staff members if they `are the only ones involved in the `decision-
making process.
Mr. PUCINSKI. Would you remove the parents whose children grad-
uate `from the Hea'dstart program from this committee as soon as they
leave the program?
Mrs. EDWARDS. That is a process of phasing out in `the same way as,
for instance, you would phase out children w'hose parents had become
overincomed by virtue of having been upgra'ded `and gotten a job.
You wouldn't snatch them out the `moment that the children got out
of the program.
`Mr. PIJCINSKI. But you would rotate this?
Mrs. EDWARDS. I think good planning would insure that these par-
ents are involved in a meaningful way after Headstart. You might, for
instance, have a Headstart alumni association or you might certainly
see that they get involved in advisory committee `functions in the school
system.
PAGENO="0460"
1892
I might say that this would have been an excellent preparatory
ground for grooming parents to participate. in parent involvement un-
der the title I program and I think it is tragic that the House of Repre-
sentatives did not see fit to pass that or rather, that they did see fit to
`delete the amendment that would have given parent involvement, pro-
vide for it in the regular school system.
Mr. PucIxsKI. Of these parents who have children in the program,
what would you recommend we do when there are meetings of the
committee in Washington? The parents would come here to Washing-
ton? What if they don't have anybody to leave their `children wi'th?
What happens then?
`Mrs. EDWARDS. If parents are helped to overcome some of the same
problems that other people have been helped to overcome by virtue of
education and money, you see, I think they can `cope with this kind of
situation.
Mr. PucIxsKI. But then when they are helped that way under the
rules of the present bill, they don't qualify for Headstart any more.
When their family income is raised to a level of over $3,000, then the
children are no longer eligible for Headstart and are phased out of the
program. How do you propose to close that vicious circle?
Mrs. EDWARDS. I deal with income. If you. let me read further, I
think we will find my suggestion about that.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead.
Mrs. EDWARDS. The comprehensive disciplinary approach and other
unique features of }Ieadstart should be maintained, parents should
be involved in a. policy advisory role and as employees. Training and
career development, aspects of Headstart should receive increased atten-
tion as a. highly effective and economical means of simultaneously
helping people and reaching several public objectives.
It is recommended that parent involvement be a condition to any
Federal grant for child development and education programs. All
research on Headstart to date has emphasized the failure of Headstart
children to retain whatever gains made. It is vital, therefore, that
public school education be strengthened.
The Elementary and Secondary Act, titles I and III in particular
should be fully utilized to provide parent involvement, innovative
materials, new techniques, a strong foflowthrough program, and vari-
ous other improvements.
Flexibility and variety in operations nmst be n'iaintained if we are
to improve services in the field of child development. This includes,
(1) freedom `of local sponsors to contract with various local institu-
tions for Headstart services; (2) local options in the `selection and
structure of program components; and (3) development of a wide
variety of different approaches.
Many families are denied the benefits of Headstart. because their in-
comes slightly exceed that necessary for program eligibility. Because
of the wide variance in the costs of living throughout the country, and
because the poverty line established is inconsistent with the affluence
of this country, it is strongly recommended that family income re-
quirernents for eligibility be extended to include more of the poor.
There are very serious implications involved in the suggestion that
school systems collaborate with youth groups using Headstart funds
in order to provide a more comprehensive child development program.
It appears quite impractical to consider that `school system, many of
PAGENO="0461"
1893
which are filled with racist elements and riddled with political
"fascism" and issues of community control will suddenly accept with
open arms a cooperative set of arrangements with community people.
Leverage granted a coordinating force is a minimum requirement
for tackling this practice. While I personally feel that in-depth re-
search is unnecessary and implicit and inherent inferiority of the
children served, I strongly concur that good evaluation is needed in
order to improve the program. For good evaluation, appropriate and
relevant standards of measurement must be developed and conducted
with a heavy input by representatives of the groups evaluated.
Review teams must be composed of persons long experienced with
Headstart programs and knowledgeable `about a variety of circum-
stances in different communities.
In many cases, we know more about programs'than the review teams
sent to assist and evaluate us. There is no credibility in such proce-
dure. I would like to read a portion of the full statement that relates
to rese'arch since there is quite an emphasis on it at this time.
Headstart is more than a classroom-centered program. Therefore,
any evaluation of it necessarily includes more than the effect upon the
children. Because the program features the involvement of parents in
program planning `and implementation, decentralized program opera-
tion and the inclusion of personnel with c1ualifications other than tra-
ditional `academic training, the programs eff'ec~iveness is difficult to
measure, as the parents' feeling of self-worth and self-respect be in-
creased which, in turn, leads to~ greater confidence in one's ability to
effect socal change.
The Westinghouse Headstart report has `attempted to deal with the
research issue. According to news reports there appears to be consid-
erable controversy concerning the experimental design, conclusions,
and intent of the Westinghouse Report. Since I have been unable to
obt'ain the report, I am unable to comment upon it specifically.
However, because in the controversy surrounding the report, I will
comment upon the entire issue of rese'arch with respect to the popula-
tion serve'd by Headstart, and upon the specific issue of criteria for
judging the effectiveness of a comprehensive program which deals
with human development.
In my opinion, most research concerning the poor an'd the black in
general has been oriented to the needs of those doing the research
rather than to the needs of those being researched. It is interesting
that very few studies concern themselves with the comparative analy-
ses of different methods to remedy the problems of the poor and black,
while a great number of studies have concerned themselves with the
focusing on how the poor and black differ from the white middle-class:
norm.
In addition, the validity of their identifications is an issue. Many
of the conclusions drawn from such research suggest that the onus of
poverty and racism is to be placed on the poor and the black them-
selves. My opinion, as supported by the Kerner report, by Kenneth
Clark studies and others, is that the causes of such problems are due to
the pervasive influence of racism, class pre~udice, `and lack of money.
Headstart attempts to deal with these problems by providing the
children even for just a short period of time with respect and service.
However, one cannot then send the child out into a system whose atti-
PAGENO="0462"
1894
tudes and services remain unchanged and expect the child not to be
adversely affected.
Heads~a.rt, as the name implies, is only a start. Revolutionary
changes have to be made in the systems beyond Headstart unless there.
is a desire to continue to stop the physical, cognitive, and emotional
growth of children.
After separating out the elements of racism and poverty, the edu-
cational benefits of IEleadstart can be dealt with. The total garment of
psychological, economic,. social, historical and educational problems
must be considered in preparing Headstart children to overcome class
and race barriers. These barriers have resulted in denial of educational
opportunities to the families of Hea.dstart children.
Increasing experimental programs for children from 0 to 3 years
of age raises serious questions as to the direction which we are moving.
Headstart should be supportive of family structure, not a. substitute.
Emphasis should be placed on the improving of the environment so
that families can be strengthened. The inclusion of day care in the
Office of Child Development is a logical and necessary step in creating
a vehicle for strengthening family life. It is expected that Headstart
will continue to be a spur to the public school system and to social
a.gencies in hastening the development of new techniques and demon-
strating the importance of community involvement.
It is hoped also that Headstart will be an example to other public
and private resources in its precedented involvement of black people
at all levels of planning and operation.
I wish to express my appreciation for the opportunity to appear
before this committee and share my opinion on these crucial issues
about which I a.m deeply concerned. I humbly implore that you use
your good office tha.t will insure that the above recommendations are
expedited in the interest of the population affected and in the best
interests of this country.
Chairman PERKINs. Mr. Pucinski?
Mr. P~cINsKI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I was very much impressed, Dr. Edwards, with your excellent back-
ground. Certainly you come before this committee well prepared to
discuss this subject. Because of .the fact that I was impressed with your
background, I was somewhat struck by your statement on page 4 in
which you say, "nothing short of a. national commitment to an all-out
effort. to creating new resources and utilizing ones in ways that will
allow black people to define their own problems and have the power to
implement.solutions will make a dent in reducing racism."
Isn't this really racism in reverse? Isn't this a reverse segregation
that you are suggesting?
I have sat on this committee for 10 years. I first suggested the con-
cept of title I and ESEA. I have worked on many other programs,
including the very thing that you are talking about now, Headstart
and poverty.
Do you really believe that. only black people a.re able to define their
own problems and that only black people can implement the solutions
to these problems? Or don't you believe that perhaps the time has come
when all of us ought to be working with a more enlightened attitude
toward meeting this problem?
PAGENO="0463"
1895
I wonder if you would be good enough to elaborate on that statement
for me
Mrs. EDWARDS. I would be happy to do so. My feeling on this issue
is a result of over 300 years of this problem of not having been re-
solved. If you notice, I didn't read this, but on page 5, I stated very
clearly that any agency that is to deal with a substantial number of
nonwhite people must have as its primary focus reversing the effects
of racism in this society.
That has not been a primary focus and I am not sure it is realistic
to think that it will become `a primary focus by people who are the
ones in power, who tend to lose some of this power if other people are
gaining something.
Mr. PuclNsicr. Doctor, I would not be pursuing this questi'on if I
didn't have a profound respect for'your good judgment. I think I have
expressed that already. But it occurs to me that in this country out of
a population of some 200 million people, if I recall the figures cor-
rectly, we have some 20 million nonwhite people, most of them black,
which is about 10 percent.
If we were to follow your logic, th'at only black people can identify
and solve the problem of the black people, then I don't think that you
would have the resources in this country to do that.
There are su'bstanti'al nu'nThers of white Americans who feel a great
compassion for the problems of less-fortunate black citizens.
I wonder if `we were to `carry your logic to its ultimate conclusion
whether we won't really bury the'se problems in the darkest abyss of
lack of finances. I think th'is is a problem for all of America.
I think that all citizens want to contribute towards the solution. This
is why I am pressing this question.
Mrs. EDWARDS. I, think the thing that is coming through to me that
does not seem to `be coming across to you is the suggestion that black
people must be in a position to set the stage, to `define the problems, to
lead the ideas.
Mr. PucINsKI. You are doing precisely that. You are an expert from
Headstart. You have an' excellent educational background, you are in
an excellent position to define and describe the problem of this com-
mittee. But d'o you believe that this problem would be resolved any
faster or any better if we were to follow your advice here, that only the
black people should be allowed to define their problems and have the
power to implement the solutions?
`The gentleman who leads this committee, the gentleman from Ken-
tucky, the Chairman of this committee, I d'on't know of any American
who has worked harder and with greater compassion to address him-
self to the problems of the minority groups of this country than the
gentleman from Kentucky.
This is the only point I am making.
When qualified experts like you, with your background and knowl-
edge, and on the basis of your experiences in Boston come before this
committee and in your eloquent way present the problems, we benefit
immeasurably. But the solution to the problems that you present to
this committee must come from all of us. It can't come from any one
segment of our country, can it?,
PAGENO="0464"
1896
Mrs. EDWARDS. To use your own example, I would like to comment
further on that. I think the real significance of that would be seen by
the action this committee would take.
Now I imagine that if the people, most of the people there, who were
in a position to pass these laws, you know, were people who felt the
way I feel about this, the laws would get passed.
That is what I call in a position to help.
Mr. PucINsKI. You will agree we have come a long way from the
last decade. I agree with you about the 300 years. I am talking about
the last 10 years.
I think we have come a long way in these last 10 years.
Chairman PERKINS. The time of the gentleman ha.s expired.
Mr. Steiger?
Mr. STEIGER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mrs. Edwards, I appreciate very much your thoughtful statement.
I would assume based on what you have said that you do support the
delegation of Headstart to a new Office of Child Development in
Health, Education, and Welfare. Am I correct?
Mrs. EDWARDS. Yes, you are.
Mr. STEIGER. In your testimony you raised two concerns that you
have. One relating to the new position of assistant secretary and the
other to the establishment of the advisory committee.
I simply wanted you to know that your concern is well-taken. I
think there are many of us who share your concern. The problem is
that t:he delegation agreement has to be completed before the action
can be t.aken to either create the assistant secretaryship or appoint the
advisory committee. The work has been underway for the last several
weeks and I think it will be finalized fairly shortly to have a complete,
signed delegation agreement at which point, then, the Secretary of
HEW is in a position to move to appoint both the assistant secretary
and the advisory committee.
So I think what you have done is help us underscore your concern
that these t:wo steps be taken and you will get support from Members
on both sides of the aisle in making sure that this happens as quickly
and legitimately as it can happen.
Mrs. EDWARDS. Is there any opportunity, then, to have an input of
citizens toward the delegation procedures?
Mr. STEIGER. The delegation procedure is one which is not terribly
complex, frankly. The delegation agreement is that which simply gives
the funding through OEO to HEW.
It does not in any way either limit or expand the Headstart program
as it is operated.
The point I have made is that what is needed is the advice and
counsel of parents and others Who are concerned with the Headstart
problem in terms of the operation of the program when it is in the
new office.
Mrs. EDWARDS. What deals with how the Headstart program will
reach the local operation from HEW down here?
Mr. STEIGER. That will be dealt with, first of all, by the adoption by
HEW of those guidelines which presently exist, and then their modi-
fication in consultation with and in close cooperation with the advisory
committee that is to be created.
If you are talking about what specific agency might be eligible to
run Headstart program at a local level-
PAGENO="0465"
1897
Mrs. EDWARDS. That is part of it, but I am concerned about how it
gets to the local level. For instance, let's assume that we are all happy
about the marriage here in Washington. How and where does it go
from that point on
Does it go to a regional office `and from a regional office is it sub-
contracted directly to, you know, various agencies and if it goes to a
regional office, how does the Office of Child Development and whoever
heads that up at the regional level, how does that person fare within
this HEW family `at the regional level?
Will that person be responsible, for instance, to a director of HEW
who may be `deeply entrenched in adverse attitudes about the whole
thing `and slow down or make it virtually impossible for progressive
and posi'tive action?
Mr. STErnER. No. I don't have a copy of Secretary Finch's testimony
here in which he touches on that very point. But it would be my best
recollection that what he is talking about is an agency that is not tied
to any of those that presently exist in HEW and does not then become
bound by any of the traditions which may have existed in the past.
I regret I don't have his statement here, because he raises that ques-
tion and answers it in terms of his views as to how that would operate.
Mrs. EDWARDS. Sir, I was a part of the committee that recommended
to the Secretary that there be this Office of Ed'ucation and I do know
that the concern expressed by that committee and shared by the Secre-
tary was that Headstart at that level certainly should be in its own
office.
But that committee did not have the time to deal with nor really
enough technical assistance to be able to deal with all of the mechanisms
of working out the organizational structure of that office. To my
knowledge, that has not been dealt with yet as it moves out of Wash-
ington.
Chairman PERKINS. Let me ask you one question. You mentioned
flexibility in the course of your statement. As director of the Headstart
program in Boston, don't you have all the flexibility that you need
presently through the local CAP agency in operating the program
in any way or manner that you think is the best to operate it? Is that
correct?
Mrs. EDWARDS. We certainly do have.
Chairman PERKINS. Do you see any danger in losing that flexibility
if it was to go into the Office `of the Secretary?
Mrs. EDWARDS. That question relates to the question I am raising
now about how this gets worked out after leaving Washington.
Chairman PERKINS. Would you make a suggestion? Don't you think
we ought to leave it in the OEO until we know something about the
operation, how it would operate and so forth? Do you agree with me
along that line?
Mrs. EDWARDS. My only concern about where Headstart would go
grew out of the almost accepted acquiescence, I might say, that it was
a foregone conclusion that Headstart would go and that we were con-
cerned then about where.
Chairman PERKINS. I agree and I don't agree with that foregone
conclusion. If it is a foregone conclusion, we should not be' conducting
these hearings
27-754-69--pt. 3-30
PAGENO="0466"
1898
Mrs. EDWARDS. This was before these hearings were part of it.. This
is before you filed your bill, sir. I am president of the Headstart Di-
rectors of Massachusetts. All of us have formed an association.
Chairman PERKINs. As director and from the standpoint of the wel-
fare of the children involved, where do you feel it should remain or
where do you feel it should be placed with the information you have
available?
I Mrs. EDWARDS. I didn't come to talk against OEO. I came to talk for
Headstart. In relation to that, in relation to the Headstart alone, I see
real program advantage if it is in an office tha.t has a whole national
commitment to child development, not education.
I would not feel this way at all about the Office of Education or
about the Children's Bureau.
Chairman PERKINS. Are you satisfied that the way the program is
operating through OEO that we have all of these features of child
development presently in Headstart?
Mrs. EDWARDS. I am satisfied with Headstart and OEO. I would
simply want to see it strengthened the same as I would want to see it
strengthened going anywhere else. But I can see that there is an advan-
tage in its being in an office all by itself, you see.
In OEO Headstart is under CAP. It still has some restrictions which
it will not have in an office of child development. It is a sole entity
in that relationship.
Chairman PERKINS. How many more restrictions will you have?
How do you know there will be no restrictions?
Mrs. EDWARDS. That is why I am concerned about having an advisory
committee. I would like to see this body pass legislation to make it
mandatory that there would be this type of citizens advisory coin-
mittee that I mentioned, so that they would see that this office was
developed.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Steiger?
Mr. STEIGER. Specifically, I can suggest to the chairman that one
restriction which the Secretary has already indicated he will remove
is that which prohibits a conversion from summer to full-time Head-
start programs. This will, I think, allow us to take advantage of the
very real gains that are made in the full-year programs, contrasted
to those which are not as lasting or as great in the summer program.
On pages 9 and 10, Mrs. Edwards, of the Secretary's testimony, he
does get into this question. I think I will, with your permission, also
follow up to get a specific answer to the question you raised on the role
of the Secretary's office and the local agency of whatever kind it is.
I am sure that there are some admirers of the present Head Start who are
apprehensive lest the essential ingredients of the program will be changed in its
new home; that some of its comprehensive elements will be dropped; that parents
will be neglected or forgotten.
I cannot emphasize too strongly that these fears are without substance. Com-
munity Action Agencies, as well as other public and private nonprofit agencies,
will continue to receive funds for Head Start. Nonprofessionals will be employed
and included in career development programs. Volunteers will remain an essen-
tial element.
The educational, nutritional, medical and social services components of the pro.
gram will continue. Parent involvement will be sought in every phase of opera-
tioñ. However, as I have already indicated, we plan a vigorous campaign of
investigation, research and experimentation into the ways in which these elements
can be made even more effective.
Just because an element of the program is working well and enjoys popularity
is no reason to rest on one's oars in smug complacence.
PAGENO="0467"
1899
In addition, the resources available under Pities IV and V of the Social Se-
curity Act will be then used with Head Start to be mobilized on behalf of im-
provement and experimentation and improving, expanding and strengthening
the Head Start Program.
That doesn't `answer the specific point you were raising on the role
between the Secretary's Office and the local `office and what the route is.
Mrs. EDWARDS. That is an administrative physical problem. I can
accept his point of view relative to the program here `and I did com-
ment on that problematic aspect, though, by saying that there are
serious implications involved in the suggestion that these school sys-
tems could collaborate with the community groups and others.
I read that, and pointing out that unless there is some leverage,
some coordinating leverage here, you see, I don't think there is much
to hope for in terms of your school systems opening up their arms and
taking on this community-oriented program.
Mr. Si~niom. I will be delighted to follow up for you `and see if we
can't get `an answer to that question `and send it up to you.
Chairman PERKINS. The time of the gentleman `has expired.
Mrs. Green?
Mrs. GREEN. I have not `been here to hear the statement, Mr. Chair-
man.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Quie?
Do you have a concluding statement ~
Mrs EDWARDS I simply want to reiterate my concern about the
mechanism by which this program will filter down from the Office of
Education in Washington to the local operational level. I am par-
ticularly `concerned about what happens in the regional office in terms
of interdepartmental relationships.
Chairman PERKINS. Thank you very much for your appearance.
Mr. PUOINsKI. Mrs. Edwards, I have one short question. Have you
read about the Westinghouse analysis of the Headstart program?
Would you care to offer an opinion on the Westinghouse report?
Mrs. EDWARDS. I read that.
Chairman PERKINS. She has commented `at length on that here. Go
ahead and let her comment again.
Mrs. EDWAIWS. Do you want it read again?
Mr. PUCINSKI. No. I withdraw the question.
Chairman PERKINS. Thank you very much for coming.
Come around, Dr. Levitan.
`STATEMENT OP DR. SAR A. LEVITAN, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR
MANPOWER POLICY STUDIES, THE GEORGE WASHINGTON
UNIVERSITY
Chairman PERKINS. Dr. Levitan, we are glad to welcome you back
ihere. You have, been with us on several occasions. I notice that you
`have always been a great believer in seeing that these programs are
all coordinated in the best way and manner possible to save the Govern
ment money We are delighted to he'ir from you
As ~1 ~went through' the staten'ient, I think you entertain a few of
my views that we ought to give the program some' continuity and ex-
tend it for a period of years. I think you say 4 years. `Would you
care to comment on the necessity for better coordination from the
J?ederal level?
PAGENO="0468"
1900
Without objection the prepared statement will be inserted in the
record and then you may proceed in any manner that you prefer.
(The statement follows:)
PREPARED STATEMENT OF DR. SAn A. LEVITAN, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR MANPOWER
POLICY SVUDIES, THE GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY
Two years ago when you extended to me the honor of presenting my views on
the then pending amendments to the Economic Opportunity Act, I recommended
that OEO continue as an independent agency. Events during the past two years
have not changed my views on the desirability of extending the life of OEO.
There remains the need to continue an agency in the federal establishment whose
sole mission is to aid the poor and to help design new exits from poverty.
This does not, of course, preclude the transfer of some OEO activities to other
agencies or the assignment of new responsibilities to OEO. Accordingly, the trans-
fer of the Job Corps from OEO may be a desirable step. I do deplore, however.
the attempt to "save" $100 million in the process. Youth unemployment continues
at an alarming rate despite the high overall level of economic activity. And while
unsuccessful Job Corps Centers should be discontinued, alternative programs must
be developed or supported for unemployed and unskilled youth.
CAP must remain the major responsibility of OEO, funding experimentation
and the development of new programs as well as support of CAAs. While there
is a continuing need for an agency charged with helping design new exists from
poverty, there is an equally pressing need for a top governmental board whose
concern would be with poverty as a whole and with the diverse programs in
aid of the poor. Such a council would concentrate on planning and evaluation,
and would be a spokesman for the poor on the national level. It would make re-
ports and recommendations to the President as deemed necessary, and would pre-
pare an annual poverty report. To add prestige, the advice and consent of the
Senate might be required in appointing the members of the counsel.
There is little justification for postponing decisions about the future of OBO.
The Comptroller General has prepared at the the direction of Congress a review of
the agency's activities and the GAO reports should be used as a basis for decisions
about the future of the Economic Opportunity Act. The annual Congressional
hassle about the continuation of OEO does damage to its programs, and Congress
would do well to extend the life of the redesigned agency for four years.
Mr. Chairman, since `I have just completed an extensive study of OEO programs,
I would like to leave the remaining time for questions. With your permission, I
would like to insert for the record the conclusions of this study. My publisher
has indicatd that the volume, The Great Society's Poor Law, will be supplied
to interested members of this Committee when it becomes available later this
month.
THE GREAT SOCIETY'S PooR LAw
(By Sar A. Levitan)
[Copyright © 1969 by The Johns Hopkins Press, Baltimore, Md.J
POVERTY IS HERE TO sTAY; IS OEO?
The Economic Opportunity Act sought to remedy the causes of poverty rather
than merely to mitigate its symptoms. Its goal was not to ease the burdens of
poverty by providing cash benefits but to offer the poor the opportunity to lift
themselves out of poverty. In practice, income support was often a necessary
adjunct to "rehabilitation," but the thrust of the EOA programs was essentially
one of self-help.
The various Economic Opportunity Act efforts have in one way or another helped
millions; and new approaches were tried for age-old problems. However, because
of the orientation, these efforts bypassed many who could not benefit from the
self~help approach, and they failed to reach additional millions because of limited
funds. Even for those who were helped, the assistance was frequently minor, and
there was rarely immediate or perceptible improvement. Thus, though poverty
sharply declined during the years of the Great Society, the most ardent friends
of the EOA would not credit its programs with contributing much to this
improvement.
PAGENO="0469"
1901
An evaluator's lot *
The uncertain impact of the BOA programs is not necessarily a reflection of
their worth but rather a recognition that there are no re1ia~le measurements that
one can use to make conclusive judgments about program effectiveness. Since it
takes time for opportunities to be realized and effects to ~e felt, most EOA pro-
grams are still too new to permit appraisal of their value as antipoverty tools.
For example, the first participants in Headstart have barely reached their tenth
birthday, and `it `would be premature to anticipate the lasting impact of the
children's experience in the antipoverty program. If Headstart is to produce
long-term results, society will probably have to provide other compensatory
opportunities as the children progress in their school careers.
An evaluator finds `It `hard to determine which program;s have been `succe~sful
enough to warrant e~pan,sion and which coul'd be `cut baCk or eliminated without
undue `loss. The `dearth of `reliable data, mentioned earlier, adds to the evaluator's
difficulties. But even if the ~Pesults of a prOgram were `measurable and quantified
~so as `to determine its effectiveness, consideration would have `to `be given to its
relationship to the tOtal `antipoverty effort. Thus, `while the Job Corps may be
expensIte and produce few successful graduates, `it `could be the only measure to
help some enrollees. The `selection of priori'tie's `and `the `rejection of existing pro-
grams `must rema'in largely a matter of value judgment and gut feeling, `all model
building and computer-generated `data not~ith'standing. FOrmulas have yot to be
devised which `permit "scientific" judgment about the relative superiority of a
million dollars expended on locally planned and designed cultural projects for
the poor compared `with an equal amount for a job creation project devised in
Washington. If self-determination `is an `essential ingredient in combating poverty,
then locally planned and administered programs might `have an `added in'trinsic
value that should be properly considered and weighted in evaluating antiproverty
efforts. An effective `antipoverty design might include `apparent inefficiencies and
"frills" which in the `long run `could prove effective in motivating the poor.
The `d'iffic'ul'tiOs of evaluating the EQA program's `and comparing `their effective-
ness does not mean that once a program has `sta'rted `it should continue indefinitely.
The worth of specific programs can `b'e assessed, and judgments `on their effective-
ness can be made, in light of explicitly `~tat'ed n'ssumption~. Thus, Upward Bound
is a poor program if securing maximum feasible participation by parents and
community `action `agencies is eon'siderOd a higher priority than helping youth's
from `poor homes `to ea'ter college. Legal `Services `may he important to instill dig-
nity and self-reliance in the poor an'd `to help `pro'tect their rights, even if some
legal aid a~tivities `do not have any bearing on raising the income of clients.
VISTA can be criticized for frittering away `much of its resourceS on a lot of
small projects in many large cities, `but there `is no way to measure the total
impact o'f `the "good works" performed on hundreds `of V'tSTA projects. Rural
loans appear to be `a poor Investment if the goal is achieving economic inde-
pendence, but it may `be an acceptable means of providing income maintenance
under the guise of helf-hel'p. In assisting `rural migran't and `seasonal labor, OEO
could not decide w-hether its programs shOuld concentrate on "keeping `em. down
on the farm" or on a'id'ing farm laborers to move into urban areas where the jobs
are. Similar issues remained unrct'olved in `Indian `assistance programs. The `sig-
nificance of `particlpat'ory democracy a's `an antipohv4erty tool `l's impossible to
measure. Participation `of the poor i's closely intertwined with other forces `that
operate slowly `and by indirection.
It is not `surprising, therefore, tha't the General Accounting Office, after spend-
ing more `than a year on a detailed examination of `the Economic Opportunity
Act programs, despaired of `carrying `out its mandate to recommend to Congress
the future direction of the Act. The GAO report, while evaluating individual
programs, did not indicate priorities. The Senate Subcommittee on Employment,
Manpower, and Poverty undertook `a similar exercise in 1967 but also failed to'
spell out program priorities.
The public may demand a more definitive judgment about the impact of the
Economic `Opportunity Act, and Congress mus't determine `again the future scope
of the legislation and the magnitude of its programs. Given the immensity of
the needs `and the paucity of funds, this evaluator would conclude that the funds
expended on EOA self-help program's have been a worthwhile investment, but
this is only a subjective testimonial, and proof is lacking. However, available
evidence `mixed with `a dose of value judgment indicates the need for expansion of
some programs `and the curtailment of others.
PAGENO="0470"
1902
The adage that "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" seems to be
the case with the EOA programs. On the basis of `cost effectiveness criteria, the
birth control program appears to be the best investment of antipoverty dollars.
Economic considerations are not enough, however; opposition to this program
has come from another quarter. Thus, OEO has rationalized its timidity in fund-
ing birth control projects on the ground that excessive zeal in this area would
bring criticism upon the agency and place its other programs in jeopardy. The
argument does not appear persuasive in light of the demonstrated effectiveness
and increased public acceptance of the birth control program. Efforts to prevent
poverty with "the pill" should be substantially increased.
OEO programs have contributed important insights about approaches to the
solution of old social problems. The Head Start experience has indicated that
we start public education too late, at least for children from poor families. By the
time they reach public school age, many of these children are already "retarded"
compared with children raised in a more favorable environment. There is evidence
that these disadvantages can be overcome, or at `least minimized, by providing
child development programs at age three and earlier. But even this popular pro-
gram has its detractors. Some cautious scholars have warned about the "fade-out"
effects of a short summer program. The failure of the program to leave lasting
results should not be surprising, since it is unrealistic to expect the debilitating
effects of living in poverty for four or five years to be overcome by an eight-week
summer project. This suggests the need for universal nursery and kindergarten,
supplemented by nutritional and health programs, for all poor children.
Recommendations for retrenchment are more difficult. Obviously there is fat in
almost all EOA programs, but it is more pronounced in the Job `Corps than in
the others. `President Nixon joined in a favorite `pastime of OEO critics when he
condemned the Job Corps as being too expensive an effort. The President's criti-
cism was not merely campaign rhetoric, though he exaggerated the annual cost
per enrollee in Job Corps centers. With the wisdom o'f `hindsight it can be con-
cluded that much of the billion dollars allocated t'o the Job Corps during its first
four years could have been more wisely spent elsewhere, particularly the funda
exepnded on conservation and women's centers. At an annual cost of $7,400 per
youth, it is difficult to justify assigning enrollees to conservation work; the Job
Corps `should concentrate instead on the needs of youth. Another statutory pro-
vision requiring that Job Corps enrollment `be equally divided `between the sexes
also needs reexamination. It is not that females should be given less consideration
than males, but experience shows that they do not utilize Job Corps training.
Past performance does not seem to justify the expenditures, and the savings from
reducing the scale of the program should be allocated to other programs.
After four year.~ of experience it is also time for OEO to take a hard look
at the community action programs. A good place to start is with the decision
to spread CAP funds among more than a thousand areas. While the poor, re-
gardless of where they live, deserve OEO help, it does not follow that OEO can
reach them all. With current funds, CAP can expend only about $45 a year per
poor person. While it may be difficult for OEO officials to exclude poor people
from CAP benefits when they reside in the "wrrong" place (where there are few
poor people), the cause of antipoverty is not served by spreading CAP's meagr&
resources thin. At the local level, some CAA's might better concentrate on de-
signing effective new systems for delivering services to the poor than on rhetoric~
favoring transformation of society. Neighborhood centers have been a useful re-
discovery of CAP, but CAA's have not had the muscle or the know-how to secure
from old-line agencies in the communities cooperation in the delivery of vital
services.
Restructnrin.g OBO
Whatever the allocation of funds within and between programs, a question
that remains unanswered is whether the Office of Economic Opportunity is the
proper mechanism for administering antipoverty dollars. Should OEO survive, or
should its resources be allocated to other agencies? If the elimination of poverty
is to remain a prime national goal, then there is room, indeed a necessity, to
include in the federal establishment an agen~y dedicated to its realization.
Experience indicates some basic faults in the initial design, however. The Act
charged OEO with two distinct responsibilities: (1) planning, coordinating, and
mobilizing antipoverty efforts; and (2) operating several programs established
under the Act. OEO assumed direct responsibility for operation of the JOb Corps,
Community Action Program, migrant and seasonal labor programs, and VISTA,
while delegating administration of the remaining programs to other federal
PAGENO="0471"
1903
agencies. Even advocates of OEO cannot claim that the agency has made a serious
effort to plan and monitor federal antipoverty efforts and to mobilize federal,
state, and local resources to aid the poor. Preoccupied with day-to-day operational
responsibilities, OEO is another illustration of Senator Jacob K. Javits' observa-
tion: "Program operations drive out planning and innovation."
Congress recognized these failures and tried to remedy them. However, con-
gressional attempts to secure information about OEO's long-range planning have
been frustrated. What planning was done has been pigeonholed within the fed-
eral executive establishment and has been unavailable to the public because of
"executive privilege." The Johnson Administration apparently decided that nei-
ther Congress nor the public was ready to be exposed to grand plans aimed at
eradicating poverty by huge federal expenditures. Congress also sought to
strengthen the capability of the executive branch to coordinate antipoverty efforts
by empowering the cabinet-level Economic Opportunity Council, which has this
role, to hire its own staff; but President Johnson ignored this legislative initia-
tive. As a result, the Great Society's effort to coordinate antipoverty programs
was assigned to a special assistant in the White House, who performed the task
on a part-time basis. In the claims for budget allocation, OEO was just another
agency in the Executive branch and had little influence on setting priorities.
In the Nixon Administration, coordination of federal antipoverty efforts is
apparently to be carried out by the Urban Affairs Council in the Executive Office
of the President. While it is too early to pass judgment on this arrangement, ex-
perience with welfare programs argues against this mechanism if antipoverty
efforts are to remain *a major goal of the administration. The Urban Affairs
Council will be concerned with the numerous pressing problems of our cities, and
in its jurisdiction are measures that help all sectors of the population. Experience
has shown that institutions which serve the rich and the poor normally tend to
ignore the needs of the poor and aid their more affluent clients. Even with the
best intentions, it is likely that before too long the Urban Affairs Council will
focus upon the needs of the majority and will ignore the poor, who have little
political clout. The case for funding special programs in aid of the poor and for
establishing a special council in the Executive Office of the President charged with
the responsibility of planning, coordinating, and evaluating antipoverty efforts is
persuasive. If added prestige is desired, it might help to require the advice and
consent of the Senate in appointing the members of such a council. This idea was
first proposed by the Republican Opportunity Crusade of 1967. President Nixon
has apparently chosen to ignore the proposal, as did his predecessor.
Once the planning, coordinating, and evaluating functions of OEO are separated
from its operating responsibilities, the scope of the reconstituted agency must
be determined. There is little to be said for continuing the present arrangement
whereby OEO indefinitely delegates programs to other agencies. Once a program
is entrusted to another agency and appropriate guidelines have been established
that guarantee the rights of the poor under the measure, OEO's responsibilities
should cease. Funneling funds through OEO complicates, rather than solves,
administrative problems. Thus the manpower programs under Title TB of the
Economic Opportunity Act could be transferred altogether to the Labor Depart-
ment, and a revised Job Corps might be added as part of a comprehensive man-
power package. This would leave OEO with a number of operating responsibilities.
The pr~sent organization of GAP ~s a product of happenstance, an~l the role of
CAA's in Model Cities is ambiguou's. As programs evolved, CAP assurn~d certain
r~sponsibilities and funded ~eleeted `activities while it neglected or delegated
others. A sound arrangement would be to transfer all proven and established
program's to other agencies for administra'tion. OEO (or whatever `the antipoverty
agency might be called) could then focus its r~sourees on demonstration and
experimental projects, transferring snhcessfiil ones and `abandoning `those falling
short of their mark. `CAP hasproven a useful tool in developing and testing inno-
vative approaches and in nourishing participation `by the poor, even if it was not
"ma~imum." There are signs, however, that it ~s growing less flexible with age.
If CAP becomes another bureaucracy with a specified set of functions, its major
contribution will diminish. If it is to remain a viable agency it ahould concentrate
on experimental programs in aid of the poor.
One experimental program that is an excellent candidate to be added as a
major GAP effort i's support of community developmeht corporations. GAP has
already funded a few such projects; given additional funds,. it could experiment
with more community-based development programs. Where feasible, experimental
community-centered project's that are aimed at the rehabilitation of slum areas
PAGENO="0472"
1904
or at helping timir poor residents should be part of the community action program.
The challenge to the federal community action agency would be to encourage and
fund worthwhile programs and to continue only those that gain acceptability.
If it fails in this misSion, it might as well wither away.
Consideration should also be given to overhauling the distribution and alloca-
tion of community action funds. The federal government does not operate com-
munity action agencies; its role should be to fund activities of these agencies
within `broad guidelines and not to dictate operational details. The experience
of OEO has indicated that funding on a project-by-project basis is wasteful and
tends to impose federal judgments on details best left to the communities. OEO
practice has led to a proliferation of disjointed projects and efforts, frequently
just for the sake of encouraging participation, without improving services to the
poor. Conceptually, it would appear that OEO can best discharge its responsibili-
ties to a community by providing the funds, leaving the community to decide the
structure of their organizations as well as the programs they undertake.
This begs the question of the role of the state, city halls, court houses, and
community groups in administering CAP funds. In rural areas, states will have
to play an important part since smaller rural communities rarely possess the
technical expertise and institutions needed to develop viable programs. But
in urban areas, a case can be made for direct funding to city hall or local groups,
although state agencies control significant sources of funds and vital services. On
balance, it appears desirable to include the states as partners in a federal effort.
Since there is `also a need for funding specific experimental projects, and for
helping communities where states are recalcitrant, it might be practical to dis-
tribute a fixed percentage, say 70 percent, of total funds to states on the basis
of predetermined formulas, using the remainder for experimental projects or
for direct help where states or communities fail to carry out federal objectives.
The states w-ould then be faced with choosing between city halls and local
community groups to administer their funds. This is not as difficult a choice as
one might expect from the image of constant friction `between `CAA's and city
halls. This friction was more a creation of the mass media looking for the man-
bites-dog story than a reflection of reality. Where conflicts did exist, they have
usually been resolved. Some communities have created semi-public or private
community action agencies, others h'ave operated through their elected officials;
but in most cases at least a moderately successful accommodation has evolved,
and there is no apparent reason to disturb this arrangement.
TV/tat would `it take to eliminate poverty?
The discussion thus far has been limited to the EOA programs. However,
Congress and the Nixon Administration do not have to settle for merely stream-
lining the administration of the 1904 antipoverty law and improving program
operations. Society could raise its sights and focus on the elimination of poverty,
an undertaking that would require a sustained effort involving allocation of vast
resources. It would call not only for expansion of self-help programs but also
for income maintenance programs. The crucial question is whether the American
people consider the elimination of poverty a high priority goal.
Few- would disagree that the Tnited States has `the capacity to raise the in-
come of all its poor above the poverty threshold. The aggregate poverty gap of
the 22 million poor in 1967 was "only" $10 billion, based on current poverty
income criteria. Latest available data would support a poverty threshold about
one-third higher than that used by the government. A plan that would guarantee
a poverty-threshold income for all, with realistic incentives to keep the poor and
near-poor wage earners in the labor force, might carry an annual price tag of
$20 billion to $25 billion.
Whatever the income deficit of the poor, an effective antipoverty effort must
provide more than income maintenance. Since the government has assumed the
responsibility of providing many social services that are currently taken for
granted, raising the income of the poor would not reduce this responsibility. In
addition, the services provided by EOA programs would have to be radically
expanded if the antipoverty effort was to be accelerated.
Over a century ago it was decided that free schooling would be made available
to all. While publicly supported education has continually expanded, little at-
tention has been given to lowering the entry age. With present funds, Head
Start can provide year-round facilities for one of every fifteen poor children and
for one in five during the summer months. Universal Head Start is only a first
step. Considerably more needs to be done to improve the quality of education
PAGENO="0473"
1905
throughout the primary and secondary schools, particularly in poverty areas.
Since a college sheepskin is possibly the best insurance against poverty, children
from poor homes with the required intellectual capacity would benefit from special
help in getting into college and from financial assistance in remaining there.
While additional expenditures for education will undoubtedly prepare more
students for work, there will remain many youths who fail tn school-or, some
would say, whom school fails-and they will need `remedial education, prevo-
cational training, and employment opportunities. There is a need for expanded
community skill centers to make remedial training accessible to all, and residen-
tial facilities must also be provided to homeless youths or those in isolated rural
areas.
There is also a variety of community services, some of which are provided by
OEO funds. Health care is increasingly becoming a responsibility of government.
The government's health care bill for the poor is already about $10 billion per
year and rising rapidly. Considering the vast expansion of medical services in
aid of the poor in recent years, the most crucial public policy consideration is a
more efficient utilization of the resources allocated to health programs. OEO's
neighborhood health centers offer one example of a promising effort to improve the
delivery of health services to the poor. Finally, planned parenthood and birth con-
trol programs need additional funds from the present, or from any expanded, war
on poverty.
Although this discussion focuses on the development of human resources, en-
vironmental factors cannot be ignored. The housing needs of the poor require no
elaboration, and the physical rehabilitation of our cities goes hand-in-hand with
investment in human resources. Metropolitan problems are not exclusively those
of income, jobs, and welfare services.
This oversimplified catalogue of the programs for fighting poverty would cost
about $20 billion, so that the annual bill for an effective antipoverty war would
be in the vicinity of $40 billion, about equally divided between income main-
tenance and outlays for goods and services. The nation could afford these expendi-
tures without added taxes by utilizing the additional revenue generated by normal
economic growth. This assumes, however, that a major proportion of the extra
taxes collected by the federal government in ,the 1970's would be allocated to aid
the poor, and that other national programs would remain at about their present
level or expand only slightly.
There is little evidence that the American people are willing `to ~ssign a top
priority to a real `war on poverty. Realism would dictate that in `the years imme-
diately ahead it would `be more useful `to concentrate on a gradual e~pansi'on of
the modest antipoverty efforts initiated `by the Gteat Society and to make the best
use of on-going efforts and resources'. Admittedly, in the long run th~s ~iecemueai
approach will `involve greater costs than an "unconditional war on poverty." The
application of a systems ap~roa'ch should be helpful. The task of `Head Start and
compensatory education becomes increa~singiy difficult `if the child is brought up
in a family where the father is unemployed or the family `lives on a dollar a day
per ~er'son, the level `of relief provided `in the majority of state's'. It would be
unthinkable to send a soldier `to fight `in Vietnam without providing `him with
ammunition, housing, mediCal `aid, and `a myriad of other `supportive services. We
should apply the `same standards to the domestic war. `However, given the current
climate, talk about the imminent elimination `of poverty is indulgence in exhorta-
tion rather than a practical guide for action.
A's long as society continues grudgingly to provide `help to the poor, a's mani-
fested by the po'o'r laws `over `the centuries, `we must settle for augmenting the
`administrative efficiency `of `the 1964 poor law and for improving its operations.
Therefore, the continuance in `the federal E'sita'biishinent `of an `agenc'y `whose sole
mission is to help the po'o'r and `to `help `design new exi~s from poverty is a'ppro-
ptia'te. For the forseeable future it ap~ears that `the bIblical admonition that "the
poor shall never cease out of the land" will `hold for our `socidty.
Mr. LEVITAN. Thank you, Mr. `Chairman.
I have `a very `brief statement for a~i opener, then we will do, I `hope,
as we di'd 2 years `ago and see what questions will come up.
No. 1, `as you indicated, Mr. Chairman, I have not changed my mind
during the past `2 years. There is it need to `continue OEO; I `believe
to continue it alone is not enough; that there has to `be a commitment
PAGENO="0474"
1906
in a definite endeavor, a definite, understanding or definite legislation
that the Economic Opportunity Act will continue for a number of
years.
I compromise between your original proposal of 5 years and the one
that I understand you just suggested of 3 years `and took 4 years. I
would rather have it in an odd year, like 1972. There is very little
disagreement there. I am afraid, Mr. `Chairman, that we might not see
eye-to-eye on the Job Corps being transferred from OEO to the Labor
Department. I think that the Job Corps might `have `d'one a much better
and more effective job than it `did. I `do say, `however, in my statement
that I am rather unhappy about "saving" of $1 million from the Job
Corps.
Now, if that money can be saved from the Job Corps, I think it might
very well be done, but what I am unhappy about is that the present
proposal of the Nixon administration for the Economic Opportunity
Act is more than $100 million lower than the one proposed by the
former administration.
`Finally, as far as coordination is concerned, I am not entirely sure of
exactly what coordination means, bitt as far as the continuation of the
program, I would like to see a separation of planning `and general
development of the program from operating.
The effort of the 1964 Economic Opportunity Act of combining it
into one agency apparently is not working out too well. I would like to
see an extension for 4 years of the OEO. I wish that Mr. Quie or some-
body else would revive `his old bill of 1967 an'd particularly title I,
which provided for a separate economic opportunity council. I `think
that that w'as a very good idea although I wasn't sure of that 2 years
ago. Over the last 2 years, Mr. Quie completely convinced me of that,
and I am very sorry to see that that particular provision `has not been
revived `by the administration. I `hope that Mr. Quie `and his colleagues
will introduce it.
Mr. QmE. Mr. Chairman, I might say on that, for `a while I thought
that the administration was going to come up with a separate economic
opportunity council when it comes to this point. It `hasn't arrived yet.
I find myself `in agreement with you. Maybe we will have to put legis-
lation together.
Mr. LEVITAN. All you have to do is take out title I. I am not sure
nbout other titles, but title I of the Economic Opportunity Act and
reintroduce it. That is nil that is necessary. I will `be happy to give you
a copy of that bill, Mr. Quie.
If I may, I want to add one more point; that is, a self-serving
commercial.
I am cutting my original statement very short because I have just
completed a volume on the Economic Opportunity Act. My publisher
is the Johns Hopkins Press and has indicated it will supply any mem-
ber of the ta'sk force that is interested with a `copy of it in a few weeks.
I leave myself at your mercy now.
Mrs. GREEN (presiding). Congressman Quie.
Mr. QmE. Thank you.
When you said you will have a copy ready in a few weeks, how many
weeks are a few?
Mr. LEVITAN. I will promise you, Mr. Quie, to `have a copy before
the end of this month. If it is not a bound copy, I can give it to you
even `before that, but at the most 3 weeks.
PAGENO="0475"
1907
~Mr. QUIE. I think `it would be good to have one.
Mr. LEVITAN. Before you would pass this bill.
Mr. QtIE. I was hoping it would be before the bill came out. If we
:are aiming for the middle of June I guess there will be time enough.
`I just want to say that I know of no One who has studied the Office
of Economic Opportunity and the Economic Opportunity Act more
thoroughly than you have, Dr. Levitan, and with an unbiased point of
view as well. I don't say that you are completely uiThiased, because
nobody is.
Mr. LEVITAN. I hope not.
Mr. QUIE. But at least you are `more unbiased than people who are
`either trying to tear it down or else th'e ones who are trying to `make it
look like it is perfect.
As you know, the Job Corps has been administered separately from
~other job training programs and separate from vocational education.
We see the Department of Labor `active now in virtually `all of the man-
power programs, but vocational education is still separate over in the
Office of Education.
The institutional programs of MDTA, vocational education, assumes
a responsibility and the move of Job Corps to the Department of Labor
may help in some coordination but it does no't provide a coordinated
effort on the national level for manpower programs.
I know you have done considerable work and study in this. If you
were given the responsibility to make manpower programs work, how
would you set up `an administration of them?
Mr. LEVITAN. Of the Job Corps?
Mr. QUIE. Overall, as the Job Corps `would play a part in the total
manpower programs. We `know that it has been isolated `from every-
thing else. There have been many opportunities for individuals who
need specialized training, `with the special help of the Federal Govern-
ment in that training.
Mr. LEVITAN. I would do exactly what Mrs. Green `and you sug-
gested, having a Department of Manpower and Educati'on, and I would
put in this as far as the programs that we are talking about in con-
nection wi'th the Economic Opportunity Act which, as you pointed
out, are already in-practically all of them-the Department of Labor.
I would think these programs plus vocational education and MD'TA,
and I would put it as one package of manpower of programs in the
`Department of Education and Manpower and then attempt not to legis-
hate specific divided programs or piecemeal programs, but one big
package that would be allocated to States for a comprehensive man-
power program.
Roughly we are talking about a $2.5 billion package, and I would
take that $2.5 billion `and divided it, let's `say 70 percent for the States
and 30 percent retained by the Federal authorities. The 70 percent
would go to the States. I would then `accompany that with general
guidelines which would require the States to follow certain practices
and then allow communities to take their own actions.
For example, in connection with the Job Corps if a community
wanted to have its own residential facilities, I would allow them to use
a larger portion of its money and that community's money for Job
Corps. If the community wants skill centers, preferably, let's take for
the same skill centers as we have now in some 40 or 50 communities
and `some of the money by the Job Corps-if I don't get a chance to
PAGENO="0476"
1908
say later, I had better say it now-might go to the skill centers. The
so-called savings from the Job Corps might go into the skill centers so
that community could use more for institutional training.
In other words, I would like to allow the community maximum free-
dom with these Federal guidelines. That I believe would leave the Feds
more opportunity to monitor the project and to see that the Federal
guidelines are carried out rather than shuffle perhaps as they are now
forced to do by approving it on a project-by-project basis.
I mentioned that I would leave 30 percent of the money in the hands
of the Federal authority. This would serve several purposes: One for
research and monitoring and evaluation. Obviously, that would require
some funds. Second, for experimentation and demonstration. I think
that the Feds are in a better position to use the funds for experimenta-
tion and administration because they have greater capability and they
can, of course, exercise then their power of `the distributing funds where
the demonstrations can be most effective.
Three, in certain places where there is reluctance on the part of the
State and local communities to carry out Federal policies, for instance
because of discrimination or racial discrimination or any other reasons
I would then use the Federal funds for direct funding to whatever
private institutions are available to carry out the policies.
That is in a nutshell what would be my suggestion which, with this
type of a manpower program, the Job Corps could. very well fit in.
That is why I have no particular quarrel with transferring the Job
Corps to the Labor Department.
As a matte.r of fact, I think there is a. great, deal to be said for it.,
tha.t it might be transferred partly to education, to vocational educa.-
tion, but the fact is that the. Job Corps has, as I pointed out, after 2
years when I appeared before this committee, has tried to do it alone
`and as a result. has done rather poorly.
I would not, however, want to cut out this harsh treatment that the
Job Corps has received. I am not. sure, again I am coming back to the
$100 million, that was an exact. amount. It wasn't. an exact. amount, it
is a nice, round figure. It helps to justify it on the basis of the accom-
plishments. It is a very difficult program.
The Job Corps has improved a. great deal. I would rat.her want to
eliminate centers one by one, those that have not proven themselves
rather than taking up a decision of $100 million and then start arbi-
trarily sa.ying if one center is .03 percent. less efficient than another one.
it is cut out. The measurements are far from being that exact. We
really don't. know what. is going on in the centers and the administra-
tion, and Mr. Shult.z got himself into trouble beca.use he. had to fit it
into a. $100 million package of cutting the Job Corps. And it is no big
secret. it ha's been originally suggested, namely, that inefficient centers
be eliminated and the Department of Labor devises new programs
either with the Office of Education and skill centers or the other similar
programs that. would administer to the needs of the teenagers.
As you very well know, Mr. Quie, the number of unemployment
among teenagers and particularly Negro teenagers is still an alarm-
ingly high, ove.r 20 percent, despite the fact that we have ha.d labor
shortages now for 3 yea.rs.
Mr. QUTE. `When you talk about the unified manpower program, and
30 percent held by the Federal Government, would you give the Fed-
PAGENO="0477"
1909
eral Government authority to contract with private corporations as
well as public, that is, private profitmaking as well as a private non-
profit and public institutions. There has been a limitation of some pro-
grams, you know, against contracting with private profitmaking
corporations.
Mr. LEVITAN. While I won't make it an emphatic statement, Mr.
Quie, that private organizations are necessarily better than public, I
have nothing against profit for private institutions and if a private
institution could serve the purpose, I would give it to a private institu-
tion. I would take reservations to the outright approach that either
organizations for private are good or nonprofit is better. Any institu-
tion can do the job and I would use both of them equally or wherever
appropriate.
Mr. QuUD. If the Federal Government would have to move in with
this 30 percent because of unwillingness to meet the Federal guide-
lines, you mentioned discrimination as one of them, in that case it
would undoubtedly be necessary to contract with either nonprofit or
private profitmaking agencies. If the public agencies would be willing
to meet the Federal guidelines, be it State or local, there would be no
prohibition of their using 70 percent for that purpose, is that right?
Mr. LEVITAN. That is correct.
Some communities let us say may have very good vocational estab-
lishments in the town. Your State may be a good example of that. Then
in such case I would use the putdic schools. In other places there may be
private vocational schools that might do the j~b much better.
I would tend to rely on private nonprofit institutions or the corpora-
tion that juSt recently entered into the business of serving the di's-
`advantaged and in some cases they. might be able to do a better job
than the public schools.
I don't think that the decision should be made on the basis of whether
it is profit or nonprofit, it should be who can do the job best for the
clients of a given program.
Mr. QulE. The Southeastern States of the Nation have not had Job
Corps camps or centers. From your studies do you feel that it is because
they refused to permit anything to be established in their area or rather
thai the Federal `Government felt it safer to establish them outside of
those States?
Mr. LEVITAN. I guess it would have been both. The chances :are if
they had established a Job Corps center in such States as you refer
there would `have been problems of getting centers.
So, the Job Corps itself tried to stay away from this problem as far
as I understand. It is on both sides, but obviously you start with the
existence of `discrimination in these States.
Mr. QiIIE. Have you had a chance to look at any of the skill centers
that the Department of Labor in the previous administration set up
on an experimental basis?
Mr. LEVITAN. Yes, I `Imow about them, sir.
Mr. Quu~. Excuse me.
Mr. LEVITAN. I know about them, yes.
Mr. QmE. Have you attempted to look `at the Washington job cen-
ter? To me, it is similar to the skill center. The same people who were
in the Lincoln Job Corps center which was closed down by the previous
administration, have moved to Washington using their methods `of
training.
PAGENO="0478"
1910
Have you had a chance to look at that and evaluate that ?
Mr. LEVITAN. 1 did not look at the Washington center, but I have
seen some of those centers and I have talked to people who have admin-
istered the centers.
Some couple hundred million dollars that is now being saved, in
quotes, from the Job Corps could very well be put in the skill centers
like, for instance, the Newark kind of center which is a good one. There
are several of these skill centers that can be developed.
The fact is, and I have checked because I thought that question might
come up and I checked with the vocational education people in the
Office of Education and I am told that right now there are some 30,000
slots in the skill centers and oniy 10,000 are filled.
The reason for it i's not that they cannot get the bodies but they do
not have the funds. As a matter of fact, I was going to take along some
data giving you the cities where there is a shortage of funds, that is the
reason for the fact that many slots are not being filled. That is a poor
sentence. Let me put it this way.
It is the fact that many of the slots are not being filled because there
are simply not enough funds. This is because of the fact of the hassle
between the Labor Department and the Office of Education.
The Office of Education vocational directors blame the Department
of Labor, that they are starving the skill centers. The Labor Depart-
ment does not share some of the enthusiasm of the vocational educators
in the skill centers.
But the fact is that these skill centers can be utilized much better,
many of them are doing a very good job.
The small urban centers are in cities where there are already skill
centers available. N'ow some of the skill centers can be expanded to in-
clude identical facilities. It seems to me that if the Labor Department
is to take over the Job Corps, as it might after July 1, there should be
some instruction from this committee or from the Congress that the
skill centers be more fully utilized.
You can get more expert testimony on that from the Vocational Edu-
cation Division than from me.
Mr. QuIE. In your studies of the Job Corps have you come to any
conclusion or estimates of the number of young people that need the
residential facilities or methods program as compared with those who
could have done well in a nonresidential facility?
It is my understanding that many in the Job `Corps do not neces-
sarily need residential facilities, `but they have to keep those slots,filled.
Mr. LEVITAN.' There is no question, Mr. Qu'ie that that is true, but
exactly how many need residential facilities is really a very rough
guesstimate. I understand the `Secretary showed you the figure, the
universe of need, being 800,000, but he did not say all of them need
residential facilities.
There is no question that many of those who went into the Job Corps
did n'ot need residential facilities. On the other hand, some of those
who might have utilized residential facilities were not enrolled. There
is `also the problem that in some areas it is not just the criteria of
poverty but in some areas we cannot deliver education or vocational
services efficiently because of the sparse population, because there are
no facilities in such areas which will take out kids from those areas
and bring them into residential facilities.
PAGENO="0479"
1911
There is the idea that the `Congress put forth in 1963 and again in
1968 in the Vocational Education Act, but never appropriated the
money.
I am suggesting to get a closer marriage between the other m'an~
power programs and the Job Corps. One place this is necessary is voca-
tional education. Right now there is not enough.
As I say, one danger that appears in `turning over the Job Corps to
the Labor Department, which I am not opposed to at all, but they will
no~ utilize the vocational facilities and they wil' keep it separate.
This is something on which I hope the. committee will give due con-
sideration either in `legislation or in the committee report, definitely
telling the Labor Department to create closer liaison `than the Job.
Corps has succeeded with the vocational educators in the whole educa~
tion establishment.
Mr. QuIE. I don't know how we are going to do that short of creating
a new `Department of Education and Manpower. I think it is impor-
tant., as you say, that `this `Committee addr~ss itself to it now when it is.
considering not only the extension of the Economic Opportunity Act
but the likely `delegation of the Job Corps. If it is going to be any good
a.t `all it will have to `have a strong vocational component to it.
Mr. LEVITAN. Having suggested just a' few minutes ago a compre-
hensive approach and leaving maximum flexibility for communities to
decide what type `of manpower programs they want, I `don't want to
follow it up immediately `that you should `allocate the funds.
But I think if you tell the Secretary of Labor that the intent `of'
Congress in `transferring t'he Job Corps to the LabOr Department does.
include s'haring `the fun'ds with skill centers, which is mostly run by
vocational educators, I think he will get the message. He is a very'
bright young `man. `
Mr. QUIE. Especially the new Secretary `Of Labor. I yield.
Mrs. GREEN. In the residential centers `do you think it would be. de-
sirable to change the age? T'his question i~ based On `the fact that it'
see'ms to me .t'hat a lot of youngsters need a change in environment,.
change in `resi'dence, `before 16.
If they are small centers and if they are l'ocated in cities where the
families are, wouldn't it be a `desirable `thing `to put some of these
youngsters in the cent'er earlier than 14?
Mr.' LEVITAN. I would imagine that would `be `desirable.
Again that depends of course-we always get `the limit in bucks an'd~
a lot of need. If you are going to extend the universe to below 15 ther~~
are very `few below 14 Or below 16 in the Job `Corps, t'hen obviously
either you have to allocate a lot more funds to the program or you will
have to deny it to the other.
We don't know enough as to the desirability of extending the Job
Corps to younger ki'ds. I `am sure many `of them need residential facil-
ities but that would `depend on `w'hether you woul'd want t'o `d'ou'ble, I
suppose, or make it simply residential funds allocated to the manpower'
program.
`Mrs. GREEN. I agree with you on the ques'tionable saving of $100'
million, `but it would seem to me that in terms of priority that this;
maybe should `be given consideration because if you could prevent the
dropout "and if you could prevent the failures, maybe this ought to~
have `higher priority than to take the youngster at 18 or 19 and spend.
PAGENO="0480"
1912
more money and still not make too much change in the direction of a
life.
Mr. LEVITAN. Certainly if they are going to close a number of Job
Corps centers and the funds would be allocated to different programs
for teenagers, then there would be definitely room it seems to me to
experiment with 13- or 14-year-olds in the residential facilities.
That would depend on the community which would have the facility
that would want to do it. I really think that is an excellent place to
start when we have the funds rather than spend it on something else
to allocate it to that kind ~f purpose.
Mrs. GREEN. I will say that one of the points that recommends
Mr. `Shultz' plan as far as I am concerned is the variety of programs
which would be possible. histead of having all residential Job Corps
centers there would be greater flexibility. It would `be possible to have
different kinds of residential skill centers and you would be able to
experiment with programs where youngsters do not have to live in
residence, but have much stronger supportive programs and live at
home.
Mr. LEVITAN. At the danger of being repetitious, Mrs. Green, and I
really have the highest regard for Secretary Shultz, but he will not be
able to do it if the $100 million is spent elsewhere. I would agree with
you if he would take that $100 million and put it in some experimental
programs.
Apparently that is not the intent. He is going to put about $24 mil-
lion, the way I read his testimony, and I did not get the complete
transcript, but $24 million for 4,600 man-year slots. I would not
accuse Mr. Shultz of poor arithmetic, but he was forced into a situa-
tion obviously of having a few million dollars for community and
residential centers so he allocated that $24 million. He would not `be
able to do it with the $24 million.
Mrs. GREEN. Even with the reduced figure it would seem to be highly
desirable to experiment with different kinds of programs in that we
could get greater `benefit if we can have some of the youngsters in non-
residential settings and nonresidential programs.
My next question, Mr. Levitan, is not based on any preconceived
ideas that I have or any prejudices. I turn to page 312 of your state-
ment that is attached in which you say, "The question ought to be
reexamined about dividing the Job Corps enrollment between the male
and the female of the species."
Mr. LEVITAN. I thought you might see that, Mrs. Green.
Mrs. GREEN. Yes, sir; I have. You say that the past performance
does not seem to justify the expenditure of, I presume for Job Corps
training for girls, and this ought to be reduced. Would you elaborate
on that, please ~
Mr. LEVITAN. I will be glad to.
So far from what little statistics we have gotten about the Job
Corps on the females, the educational achievements are not very good
in the Job Corps. This is no reflection on womanhood, just that in the
Job Corps centers they have gotten very little education training, edu-
cational advancement.
The reason for that is that most of the girls that have been selected
for Job Corps centers are at a much higher level than the boys. In
other words, very few are illiterates.
PAGENO="0481"
1913
Mrs. GREEN. This may I say is just random sampling.
Mr. LEVITAN. As far as the Job Corps is concerned.
Mrs. GREEN. As far as the males and females are concerned.
Mr. LEVITAN. Yes; as far as the Job Corps center is concerned. What
you have is that they achieve very little education. Second, when they
leave the Job Corps the girls undoubtedly get married and have kids,
and so on.
Mrs. GREEN. Is this different than the male of the species?
Mr. LEVITAN. As far as working is concerned, Mrs. Green; yes. Be-
cause the male in our society when he gets married, most of us, whether
rightly or not, continue working. The females, many of them have
children and do not work, for a while at least, Mrs. Green.
As a result, what has happened is that so far the experience in the
Job Corps has been that a great many of them do not work, do not
gain from the experience in the Job Corps. Now maybe 10 years from
now, Mrs. Green, when those girls will have returned to the labor force
or we will have a chance to examine their kids, we may very well find
out that they established better homes or that as a result of the Job
Corps experience they have been better prepared.
Mrs. GREEN. Mr. Levitan, the facts are that one out of every three
people in the labor force is a woman. This proportion is increasing.
I think the facts also are that the very women who must work are in
the lowest socioeconomic group, that the wife must work along with
her husband in order to buy the necessities of life.
In the more affluent parts of our society it is a matter of choice. But
in the lower socioeconomic groups the women are working in larger
numbers, out of sheer necessity.
It would seem to me that this would argue specifically for more girls
in the Job Corps training or in the residential skill centers or whatever
program we have. And in addition to that, as far as the men are con-
cerned, talking about the dropouts, we have a program for "100,000,"
which, Mr. Chairman, I think this committee might well examine in
terms of its effectiveness.
So, I don't understand the logic of your argument, Mr. Levitan.
Mr. LEVITAN. Several observations, Mrs. Green. No. 1, I started to
say before that maybe 10 years from now when the girls who have left
the Job Corps return to the labor force and, as I say apparently many
of them do get married and have children upon leaving the Job Corps,
we may very well find out exactly what you said, that the Job Corps
experience helped them.
The fact that one-third of the labor force are females is correct and
also that there are larger proportions in certain groups in the popula-
tion, but for the time being, with respect to the girls that have left the
Job Corps, as I said, the educational achievement has been very low.
It has nothing to do with the girls, just the way the Job Corps trains
them.
No. 2, the statistics that we have so far are for girls who have left
in the last 2 or 3 years, late 1966 and on that basis the men, a larger
proportion of them worked, they have gotten higher increases in their
hourly wages.
So, on a dollar-for-dollar basis I would say that so far the Job Corps
has worked better for the men.
27-754---69--pt. 3-31
PAGENO="0482"
1914
Now again I woidd fully agree with you that the residential facil-
ities might be necessary, might be necessary for teenage girls, but it
comes again to the question of choice.
Now you have got Congress to pass an act saying that 50 percent.
should be female, which is equally divided. There is a great deal of
merit to that arithmetic.
Mrs. Giir~N. I was never successful in persuading Congress to do the
50 percent.
Mr. LEVITAN. The law says so. Downtown has not carried it out yet,
but the law says 50 percent. I don't think that at present, based on the
cuts in the Job Corps, that it would be desirable to carry it out to 50
percent. I would rather experiment more in whatever community where
you can take the girls into the center spot, residential training, ~ut not
pres.s for the 50 percent on the basis of past performance.
Mrs. GN. If we accept your logic, Mr. Levitan, a.nd I don't, but
supposedly based on the argument that the training does not help girls
because they don't make use of it, they get married, wouldn't you also
recommend that we cut down on the number of places that girls can
occupy in high schools and colleges because girls who go to college
also, probably do not go into the labor force or go into the professional
field in the same percentage as men. So if I read you correctly then
we really ought to save money when the budget is tight by cutting
down the places for women in college.
After all, not as many girls who graduate from high schools are
going into the labor force as boys and there is not going to be the
economic advantage that we can measure, and while we are short of
funds, we can't supply all the things we like in high schools, you would
then argue to decrease the number of girls who can go.
Mr. LEVITAN. You are right, Mrs. Green. All I am addressing myself
to is if you are going to select a small proportion or what we call the
universe of need and roughly take about one out of 30 into the Job
Corps, then it is a small selection.
For the time being, Mrs. Green, I wOuld take my chances on the
boys and hope that Congress will be more kind and provide other
possibilities for the girls.
Mrs. GREEN. I don't think the girls are willing to rest on the future
kindness that may be extended by the male of the species.
Mr. LEVITAN. Then, Mrs. Green, I would suggest making it a 50-50
proposition and allocate another $100 million or so specifically for
additional-not less-not from the savings, but an additional $100
million and then I would go along with also having facilities for the
girls.
Mrs. GREEN. Let me ask whether you would do this with black and
whites. If we measure blacks and whites, the income of whites is higher
and more are placed. Should we quit educating blacks and quit getting
them into the Job Corps too because we could use this money and have
a greater measured economic response? Would you discriminate in
that way also?
Mr. LEVITAN. Mrs. Green, you boxed me in before, but on this one
there is no prthlem because whatever data we `have indicate that blacks
who leave the Job Corps make out as well or better than the whites,
which is another way of saying-
Mrs. GREEN. Does this include black girls?
PAGENO="0483"
1915
Mr. LEVITAN. No. Black girls are such a small sample, I don't re-
member the exact number. I will check and put it in the record. I just
don't remember, Mrs. Green-honestly.
(Mr. Levitan supplied the following comment:)
The most recent and extensive Louis Harris survey differs from his earlier
studies, which indicated that men benefited more than women from Job Corps
training. The picture is now mixed, and judging from the latest survey, there is
no evidence that women's centers are substantially less effective than men's for
women who work. However, there is still a substantially smaller increase in work
force participation among women terminees than among men. Nonetheless, Rep-
resentative Green's point is well-taken, and a case-by-case approach should be
used in determining the future of women's centers as in the case of men's centers,
rather than closing a predetermined number of facilities.
Mr. LEVITAN. As far as males are concerned, there is no basis for
discriminating against blacks in the Job Corps since they make out as
well as whites.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Quie.
Mr. QmE. I have already questioned. I yield to Mr. Esch.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Esch.
Mr. ESCH. Thank you very much, Mr.. Chairman.
`One thing that has not been discussed is the role of the counselor, or
the development of the counselor role in manpower training programs
You have discussed `with Mr. Quie the possible `structure for' carry-
ing on a comprehensive manpower training program. I would' `like to
hear your comment on what role the counselor locally might have in
such a program.
Mr. LEVITAN. You are referring to the counselor for the Job Corps
program?
Mr. Eson. Right, job counselor, educational counselor, technical
training counselor.
Mr. LEVITAN. Part of the experience in the last few years has indi-
cated that if we want to get the disadvantaged, `what we call now the
disadvantaged person, into the labor force or get him hooked in the
la'bor force, once the people are attached to the labor. force, one thing
that they need is not only an opportunity to get the job but also not
only the training but the retention. In other words, they have to be
retained on the job.
The experience we have gained in the last few years indicates that
that requires having what is known `as a counselor or a buddy system,
both on the part of the agency that places the person `as well `as the
company.'
This is of course the famous "Jobs Now" in Washington experiment
where they `have taken what can be `best described as most of the hard
core boys and girls `and placed them in variou's companies in Chicago
and then had a retention rate of over a third, w'hich `was a very remark-
able achievement for `this kind of population.
This may be a poor record for a different type of population but for
this population it is very high. Apparently the role of `the counselor is
very important in this kind of program. There is always, it seems to
me, a need f'or additional counseling that this type of population needs
in order to get folks on `the job.
Mr. Eson. You brought up the long range `applications of on-the-
job counseling as one need. You mentioned the great paradox of the
black young people in the 15-to-22 age group who are over 20 percent
PAGENO="0484"
191.6
unemployed, `and at the same `time the large number of positions which
are open.
You have emphasized the funding `aspect. Do you see also the need
for some kind, of stronger counselor system to bring these two to-
gether? Are we doing the job in terms of job placement, if at the same
time we have a large number of imemployed and a large number of
positions open?
Mr. LEVITAN. Obviously, as long as we have over 20 percent Negro
teenagers unemployed we are not doing the job. The question is why
are w'e not doing the job? To some extent `at least it depends on what
kind of jo'bs we are talking about.
Now, one of the things is `that many youngsters these days will not
take a $1.60 job. At the school at New York City `and in many cities
they can not fill the school slots because the kid's will not take a $1.60
job. If that is the case, should we try to eliminate the lower-paying
jobs from our society by some kind of subsidization or by just raising
the cost for certain types of jobs, which would of course eliminate
many of these jobs?
This is a very difficult problem. It really goes `beyond the `manpower
programs we are talking about. It requires a considerable amount of
consideration of t'he minimum wage structure in this country.
Mr. ESCH. This suggests a relationship `between the minimum wage
structure, and the total welfare structure.
Mr. LEVITAN. And the two are very closely related. One of the
things we have learned from `the last few years experimentation is `the
close relationship between the welfare system, the manpower needs
and the manpower programs `as well as the minimum wage.
Now, several years ago if you would have called an econorhist before
your committee I think he would have been much more glib `about it.
Some of us still are. At least I have learned not to be glib and not to
say that it is one cause or the other. But we do face the fact that many
Negro kids who have nothing else apparently will not accept a $1.60
job. Or white kids for that matter, too, in many places.
Mr. ESOH. This may well be something that we in Congress should
look at. Rather than keeping them separate we might look at the whole
program.
Mr. LEVITAN. You might have to look at `the main wage structure.
You would have to look at the welfare structure.
In 1967 you took a look at it. You did not go very far. I recommend
you take another look before too long.
Mr. ESCH. I appreciate your comments on that because I for one am
very much concerned with this whole area of a re-examination of the
welfare structure.
You have emphasized in your testimony the problem of funding or
lack of funding. What do you see as the maximum problem? Have you
tried to identify it? When we talk about a comprehensive manpower
program just how comprehensive are we talking about? What do you
see as the immediate need? You know the labor sta'tistics figures but
what do you see as a realistic need in terms of the number of people
who can be trained and placed in the next 5 years?
Mr. LEVITAN. Again, the first thing, and I will not play straight
man to this question, is the need of having an orderly allocation of
funds. That is why I am very unhappy about the administration pro-
posal of delaying the extension of OEO oniy for 1 year. I think this is
PAGENO="0485"
1917
the worst thing you can do to these manpower programs is to extend
them from year to year, and then vote your funds in Qctober, Novem-
ber, and December not being able to plan, the community not knowing
what is going to happen. This is the first thing.
Mr. Esou. May I. ask a question there? If t~ie 1 year program brings
about a total comprehensive program after a year so that we can plan
ahead for 5 years, could you see this as a transition period?
Mr. LEVITAN. I don't see that as a transition period at all. I beg to
differ. I think the facts are before you. At your request the Comp-
troller General prepared a study which I think has a great deal of
data. The summary that was already submitted to you is a good re-
port. There are 50 percent backing it up. There is a great deal of data.
You are not going to know any more next year.
Mr. ESOH. I guess the facts are there, but the votes aren't.
Mr. LEVITAN. The facts are there. Mr. Shultz knows them, the ad-
ministration knows them. I cannot see any justification for postponing
it. If you want to discontinue it, do so, but do not extend it for another
year. You lose people. At the local level they cannot plan. I don't want
to preach to Republicans not to waste the public money but this is
exactly what they are doing with that.
Mr. ESOH. Many of us are concerned with the concept of forward
funding. I think we will get to the point where we have some system
of forward funding in all programs.
Mr. LEVITAN. To get to your question, this is not what you wanted
me to answer but I thought I might put it in. As far as how much is
needed, we don't know how much is needed, for it depends on what
conditions you are going to fund this for. If you are going to fund the
programs under MDTA subsidies you need one amount; if you are
going to be more generous you need a larger amount. If you are going
to connect it with t.he welfare, closer correlation with welfare services,
it would be an entirely different amount. It is very difficult. It depends
on what purpose and what level and how much funds we have. It de-
pends on what other programs they have. That is why I keep on harp-
ing on at least spending what we are allocating efficiently.
You will have no difficulty in persuading me as a citizen to support
Congressmen who will vote more money for antipoverty and man-
power programs. But it is not in the cards. At the same time it is in the
cards for Congress right now to take that $2 billion, take or give a few
hundred million dollars or so, for antipoverty programs we are talking
about now and make up your mind that you are going to be with this
administration, which we elected last year, for the next 4 years and
allocated funds for it.
Before you came in I suggested to the chairman I did not like the
3 years, I wanted 4 years so that you would not have to consider it in
a year that is divisible by four. This is the most important thing you
can do in terms of the constraint of the further budgetary needs that
you have and in terms of what the administration is going to ask for,
this Congress is going to vote.
Mr. Esdil. It is my understanding, though, that you are suggesting
that we do need to make changes toward development of a comprehen-
sive manpower training program now and that you would not suggest
that we would perpetuate what we have now for 4 or 5 years without
substantive changes.Is that right?
PAGENO="0486"
1918
Mr. LEvrrAN. Again, I don't know what new wisdom will be revealed
to the 91st Congress this year that is not available now. It seems to me
that you can go ahead and do it right now. All the people who are on
the committee this year were here last year. They have gone through
the same question in the 90th Congress. They have the facts before
them.
The Comptroller General of course is available to you. For what-
ever it is worth, I will make free, not for the million dollars dispensed
to General Accounting but free of charge, my report. I don't know
what else you are going to have next year that you don't have now.
Your Secretary of Labor, I assure you, is so well versed in these things,
he is one of the Nation's authorities on these matters, and I don't think
that the Secretary of Labor needs another year of on-the-job training
in order to come up with a comprehensive manpower program. He
can do it in May 1969 as well as he can do it in May 1970.
Mr. ESCH. I appreciate your comments. I think many of us will agree
that it is time to get on with a total program. There are some in this
committee, however, who are concerned with perpetuating what we
have now rather than moving ahead to doing the job this year. I think
a lot of us stand ready to come up with a total new program on this
committee. We appreciate your comments.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Steiger.
Mr. STEIGER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Levitan, it is good to have you back.
Mr. LEVITAN. Thank you, sir.
Mr. STEIGER. First of all, I want to say that I am delighted you
have just endorsed the bill I introduced here, the comprehensive man-
power bill. As you know, the administration is coming in with a bill
which will be I think an excellent one and it goes in the direction-
Chairman PERKINS. Has my friend had a chance to look over that
bill?
Mr. STEIGER. No, sir, I haven't. I just know that the President said
in his message that that was going to be one of the major thrusts of
his domestic program.
Chairman PERKINS. After you look at it., if you discover your judg-
ment was premature, what would be your comment then?
Mr. STEIGER. I think the administration has done such an exceptional
job thus fa.r in using good judgment that I don't think I would have
to reconsider whether I was wrong in my initial reaction to what
I think they are going to do.
You have said in here that you are deploring the attempt to save a
hundred million dollars in the process of transferring Job Corps from
OEO to the Labor Department. You are not, however, opposing the
dehegation agreement between OEO and the Labor Department?
Mr. LEVITAN. No; I am not. I would not call it an agreement, how-
ever. I am not sure that OEO was very enthusiastic about doing it.
But I am not opposed to transferring Job Corps to the Labor Depart-
ment.
Mr. STEIGER. In fact, if I followed correctly the thrust of your dis-
cussion with . both the gentleman from Minnesota, Mr. Quie, and the
gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Esch, you feel that there are some
very sound reasons why the Job Corps program can be made a part of
a comprehensive manpower program. .
PAGENO="0487"
1919
Mr. LEVITAN. I believe it should be made a part of the comprehensive
manpower program.
Mr. STEIGER. Included in that then would be the question of whether
or not Job Corps as it exists today is really doing a jab. There are a
number of things which I would like briefly to go over with you, in-
cluding some of the questions that you have raised in that final chapter,
"Poverty is here to stay as OEO."
Am I correct in saying that there are at this point some problems
with the operation of Job Corps? It has found itself unable to cope
with the problems of the hardest of the hard core, in part because of
the large size and institutional nature of the centers, and in part due to
the physical isolation of others? Would you agree that that is one of
the problems of Job Corps?
Mr. LEVITAN. Well, that certainly is a problem of the Jdb Corps. As
I suggested before, I think in answer to one of Mrs. Green's questions,
maybe it was Mr. Quie, I am not sure, one df the problems of the Job
Corps is that it has tried to do it alone. It has not pulled in the talent of
the vocational educators, the vocational establishment, industry and
others. As a result, I think that has `been an important, a major impedi-
ment or obstacle to `developing the Job Corps.
At the same time, Mr. Steiger, let us realize that the Job Corps took
unto itself or was given a very, very difficult job. We could not very
well expect in 4 years success, that we have to expect that there would
be a great extensive `failure, that there would be dropouts and so on.
This is by w'ay of saying that it is perfectly all right to transfer the
Job Corps to the Labor Department, but the Labor Department should
also not become parochial as far as its in'stitutions are con~erne'd in
terms of the Job `Corps, an'd second, that we should not rush into con-
demning the Job Corps because it has taken unto itself a very hard job.
This is one of the dangers, that you in `Congress appropriate `lot's of
money `and you expect immediate success. You `know better than that,
I am sure, `but I wish that the other 434 Members wou'ld remember that
the Job Corps has taken a very, very difficult job unto itself.
Mr. STEIGER. Mr. Levitan, your point is one with which I concur
completely. I do think the Congress impose's much of the difficulty on
the operating agency itself, by expecting immediate results when those
results `cannot be forthcoming. `So I in no way disagree with you. But
would it not be fair to say that there are many youngsters who today
cannot `be successfully served `by Job `Corps, but who could `be served
by alternative type residential programs in or near a city or thus per-
mittirig a greater mix of `programs rather than the rather rigi'd Job
Corps mold that has developed over this period of time?
Mr. LEVITAN. I would say "amen" to everything you said, but again
with a reminder that that would cost money.
Mr. STEIGER. Yes, sir; I understand that. I think your reminder is
a good one.
In 1967 you wrote in your book, "Antiwork and training efforts,
goal and reality," the following regarding Job Corps:
The harsh fact is that it has helped only a minority of those who sought its
aid despite the relatively ample resources that were allocated to it. The future
of the Job Corps as a viable institution therefore remains in doubt. It depends
on its ability to perform the Herculean task of operating efficiently residential
centers where poor youths will remain long enough to gain an experience mean-
ingful to their future.
PAGENO="0488"
1920
In your opinion, based on 2 additional years of experience and evalu-
ation, has Job Corps significantly improved its performance to the
point where the task is any less Herculean than it was in 1967 or, to
put it somewhat differently, do we have any more reason today than
you did ~fl 1967 to believe the Job Corps could perform the task as-
signed to it, given the three types of centers it operates and the assump-
tion on which it rests?
Mr. LEVITAN. The Job Corps ha-s still not proven itself as a. viable
institution. I don't think I would change my mind on what I said 2
years ago, and I wish I had not written that book, but now that I have,
I think I will have to stick with it. The Job Corps has still not proven
itself. However, at the same time we are faced with the problem that
you have out there, Mr. Steiger, a population that needs some kind of
help which apparently existing institutions outside of the Job Corps
cannot take care of. Part of it is the one I mentioned before, it is just
isolation of certain populations, let us say an Indian reservation. Let
us take it that as a matter of national policy we have put them there.
We certainly owe something to kids on the reservations to give them
a chance to get some identification and skill. Then as far as that is
concerned, you do need some kind of institution. But since the Job
Corps has not proven itself I would be perfectly willing to go along
with what you have said before, of trying to experiment more and that
means in certain places to have residential facilities in the cities.
The idea. of the Job Corps that you have to send a kid 937 miles-
that was the distance I identified 2 years ago, I have not checked
lately-is something that is a false assumption. There were many
false assumptions on which the Job Corps operated initially.
It was a. question of the learning process and many of -the centers
have improved their facilities. Their length of stay -has been increased,
whinh is `a major step for the effectiveness of the Job Corps. But the
fact is that in some places the Job Corps has been operating much
better than another.
Let us say the Gary Center in Texas is one place which has been run
by the vocational education establishment in that place and apparently
is one of the successful, if not t'he most successful centers there. Again,
what this suggests `to me is `that the Job Corps should `try to utilize
other institutioims t'han education, private firms that place the kids
from the Gary Center, they `have the advisory boa-rd -as `the Gary Center
does. These are the things that the Job Corps has not done sufficiently.
If you are going to have a. lot of these smaller centers in the cities
where the Labor Department would `attract private industry to place
those graduates of the Job Corps -thut would `be extremely `helpful.
But for the seventh time, or maybe more, `all these things will take
additional money a-nd if you are going to take them from the $280
million, cut it down to $180 -million a.nd `then unless you put the other
$100 million in some kind of other experiment `and not a demonstration-
type -project of w'hich `the Labor Department, `by the way, in its official
report to the White House has indicated it has been running-one in
New Haven and some other places-then you will never find out, you
will never serve that population which needs help badly.
PAGENO="0489"
1921
Mr. STErnER. You were particularly critical of the conservation
centers. In large part, page 312 of your book, just prior to that point
which was raised by Mrs. Green, you say:
It is difficult to justify assigning enrollees to conservation work, the Job Corps
should concentrate instead on the needs of the youth.
Am I to take from that that your concern in large part sterns from
the fact that there has been what is really a woefully inadequate train-
ing program in conservation centers, a training program w~hi'cli has
failed to relate to the job market of 1969? Is that correct?
Mr. LEVITAN. Yes and no. Despite the fact that you quoted me I
should agree with you. The thought I have there is that I would agree
that the conservation centers, Mr. Steiger, are not efficient organiza-
tions to the extent that it makes no sense to spend over $7,000 a year on
part-time conservation work with a kid and at the same time get very
poor conservation `and at the same time have poor training for the
boy-not g~irl, there are no girls in the conservation center.
Now outside of all this I have to take notice `of the report presented
to your committee by Harris & Associates. There they showed that the
largest of the conservation centers have the same earnings as the
graduates `of the urban centers. It may mean that there `are lots of
obs, once you get the kid the training is really not important. We
don't know enough about it. Once you get a kid hooked a few months
in a conservation center he gets a job and therefore can get the same
amount. Maybe 2 or 3 years from now if you will invite me again I
will know more about it and we will see, will the conservation center
graduate have the same retention problem as far as jobs are concerned
as the urban center graduate.
I am not saying the training does not pay off. As far as a few months'
training, it may not make too much difference so far for the first year.
Possibly the graduate from the urban center will go much further
ahead than the fellow who went to the conservation center.
Mr. STEIGER. Let me shift for a moment to community `action. On
page 321 of your final chapter you make the statement that-
One experimental program that is an excellent, candidate to be added as a major
CAP effort is support of Community Development Corps. CAP has already funded
a few- such proects. Given additional funds it could experiment with more com-
munity based development programs.
Those funds have been, as you know, extended under title I.D of
the special impact program of the Office of Economic `Opportunity.
Do you see this as a meaningful and important role for OEO and
for `CAP in the years ahead, and do you support the additional funds
that have been requested for special impact in the next administration
budget?
Mr. LEVITAN. As an importance I don't know, but the significance
I believe, yes. In other words, to the extent that there is a number of
communities this demand or this desire for trying to experiment with
different type institutions, I think it is worth while to know the kind
of institutions and to fund them.
Now I would like to go along with the community `action, you are
one of the sponsors but I would not make this a major program. How-
PAGENO="0490"
1922
ever, I would like to do an experiment with it. As I said, this $50 mil-
lion, this is the amount that is being allocated now for I.D which can
be used and some has been used for Community Development Corps. is~
something that I would like to see, that I would like to see more ex-
perimentation with.
Mr. Sa~IG~. What do you see as the role of a community action
agency?
Mr. LEVITAN. Since you have funded 1,012, there must be 1,012
different purposes. Each one would have to decide for himself what it
would be, what it would do. One thing that the community action
agencies have done is try to involve the residents of the area in their
programs to a larger extent. Not to the extent of the outbreak of the
legislation but a larger extent as has been done by traditional agencies.
In other words, I do not measure the community action agency by
whether they have achieved maximum feasible participation-ob-
viously, it is not maximum-but tried to pull in these and to an extent
that has been a plus sign for the community action agency:
It has been done more than traditional organizations, more than the
welfare organizations and this I would say is a primary function of the
community action agency.
Mr. STEIGER. On page 315 you raise a point which does frankly
touch on this, and that is the fact that Congress granted flexibility but
OEO itself started allocating certain specified amounts of money for
those programs which I assume were felt to be most politically popu-
lar and therefore most supportable. The point you make here, and I
simply wa.nt to reemphasize it is that OEO and Congress really ought
to leave the decision as to the spending of the funds to those at the local
level who are in the best position to know what programs they ought
to run and not simply run a program because that is where the money is
instead of running the program where the need is.
Am I verbalizing fairly well what you say here about the con-
ceptualization of OEO in terms of how it can best discharge its re-
sponsibility?
Mr. LEVITAN. Mr. Steiger, I am certain I could not improve on that.
Mr. STEIGER. I have no further questions. I want to simply pay
tribute to Dr. Levitan and tell him I look forward to reading his whole
book since I have only been able to read chapters of it. I am delighted
lie took the time to come before this committee. I think he made a
valuable contribution.
Mr. LEVITAN. Thank you.
Chairman Pra~KINs. Let me compliment you likewise, Dr. Levitaii.
I have been associated with you off and on for 20 years. I always
appreciate your coming before this committee. Thank you very much.
Mr. LEVITAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. Come around, Dr. Reid. Dr. Joseph H. Reid,
executive director, Child Welfare League of America, New York, N.Y.
Take a seat in front of the microphone. Without objection your
prepared statement will be inserted in the record.
Go ahead, Dr. Reid.
PAGENO="0491"
1923
STATEMENT OP JOSEPH H. REID, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE
CHILD WELFARE LEAGUE OF AMERICA, NEW YORK, N.Y.
Mr. REID. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, I am the
executive director of the Child Welfare League of America which is
a national volunteer accredited organization in the child welfare field
consisting of 384 child welfare agencies throughout the country, volun-
tary sectarian, nonsectarian, and public, and private agencies. The
league's prime functions are consultation services to local agencies
and communities, standard setting, research, and child welfare
publications.
Although my statement does not necessarily represent views of all
our member agencies since they have not yet had the opportunity to
read and approve this statement, in general, the statement is consistent
with the view of the great majority of our members. We know that
there is no disagreement about the fact that programs and services for
children have been neglected by the Federal Government and they have
not only lagged far behind the needs of children, but far behind pro-
grams for other groups in our society, as well.
Our members `agree with our view that the Federal Government
must give more concentrated attention to the needs of children if they
are to grow and develop into future productive citizens. We believe
that there is now a new opportunity for the Government to focus on
children's needs as a result of the proposal to move Head'start into a
newly created Office of Child Development within the Office of the
Secretary of `HEW, provided that certain other program changes are
made at the same time. We would like to discuss our recommendations
and our reasons for believing that these changes should be made now.
I am not going to reiterate the fact that we believe that children's
needs have `been grossly neglected by the Federal Government as con-
trasted with most other groups of adults.
For example, only approximately 10: percent of. the expenditures of
the State `and local governments for child welfare services are borne
by the Federal' Government as contrasted with about 50 percent for
most adult categories.
As Secretary Finch has pointed out, there are four times as many
young people `as aged in the United States, `but Federal benefits and
services of all kinds in 1970, including the social insurance programs,
will average about $1,750 per `aged person, and only $190 per young
person. `The relative imbalance hais been expanding, with the increase
over the last 19 years for the aged standing at nearly $22 billion, com-
pared to $11.5 `billion for the young.
These expenditures for the aged are, of course, essential, and should
be maintained, but the relative lack of emphasis on investment in
children seems shortsighted in light of the high social `and economic
payoffs which such investments can have in terms of helping to pro-
duce fully effective members of soci'ety. President Johnson and Presi-
dent Nixon have both made comments `confirming the ne'ed for more
attention to the developmental needs of children.
PAGENO="0492"
1924
As a~ result of its concern for the needs of all children in this country,
the league has lono supported strengthening a comprehensive focus on
children and yout~ within the Department of HEW. We believe that
programs of health, child development, medical care, social services,
and assistance to children and their families should be coordinated
within one office and that integrated programs of service and research
should be fostered.
We believe that programs for preschool children should not be sepa-
rated from those for school age children, nor school age programs from
those for youth. This would `be the result if the Office of Child Develop-
ment was limited to programs for children of preschool age. The needs
of children constitute a continuum and it is artificial to `divide them by
age.
We seek amalgamation, not fragmentation, of Federal responsibility
for children's programs because we believe that this will improve the
programs and services needed `by children. Coordination would make'
more widely effective all existing health and welfare programs for
children an'd youth and their families.
Such an administrative reorganization at the Federal level would
sharpen the Nation's focus on the n'eeds of children and youth and their
families. It would center the focus of organizational planning for fam-
ily and children's services on the children themselves, rather than on
the functions of health and welfare.
We believe in interdisciplinary approach to services for children is
essential because it is based on the great variety of kinds of needs of
children today. Frequently the same child is in need of health care,
social services, development and other preventative programs. If these
programs are fragmented throughout the Government, it is far more
difficult to achieve comprehensive coordinated programs at the Federal
or State level and ultimately the children in the community are not well
served because they do not receive comprehensive services based on an
interdisciplinary approach to their prdblems.
To separate programs by function; that is, medical or social services,
or on the arbitrary basis of age is to fragment a totality based on the
natural development of children and the combined service n~eds which
they have.
The transfer of the Headstart program to the Office of Child De-
velopment., however, offers an opportunity to amalgamate a variety
of children's programs and services within one office of HEW. We
therefore recommend that the transfer of }Teadstart be used as the
means to concentrate programs for children in the proposed office of
Child Development within the Office of the Secretary of HEW. If
this is not done when Hea.dstart is moved to HEW~, there will be a
further fragmentation of the Federal responsibility for programs for
children which we consider unsound and unwise.
We therefore propose the following structure to achieve the goal
of combining programs to meet the needs of children more satisfac-
torily. We believe there are five groupings of services to children which
should logically come under the aegis of the Office of Child Develop-
ment. We view them as five equal components of that office. These
would be:
1. Child development services: This part would include the Head-
start program, the parent-child centers and day care services.
PAGENO="0493"
1925
2. Health services: This would include all the present medical and
health programs of the Children's Bureau-title V, Social Security
Act.
3. Social services to families and children: This would include serv-
ices to AFDC families and children, title IV, part A, and the child
welfare services grant programs, title IV, part B.
4. The Children's Bureau: This would include child welfare re-
search, technical consultation, policy development, planning and train-
ing, reports and publications, and all other current Children's Bureau.
programs nOt in other units of the Office of Child Development. This
unit could also be called research and technical consultation if the 1912
statute creating the Children's Bureau was amended to permit such a
change.
5. Youth and delinquency services: This would include aspects of
title IV to support youth activities and all the delinquency programs
now in various parts of HEW.
We hope that the committee's interest in the Headstart program,
which was designed as a comprehensive interdisciplinary approach to
the problems of child development, will lead it to encourage the ad-
ministration to proceed along similar lines with respect to all programs
for children, and to use this opportunity to unify the Federal Govern-
me.nt's responsibility and concern for childreu within the Department
of HEW.
We wish to thank the chairman and members of the committee for
their courtesy in giving us the opportunity to appear and present the
league's views.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Esch, do you have any questions ~
Mr. ESCH. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I was struck especially by your comment relating to the money we
spend for the young person in relationship to the aged person. It~hink
none of us would want to minimize the need to take care of our senior
citizens but the emphasis that you place here is a striking one, I think,
from the standpoint of balance.
Something which many of us are concerned with is the relationship
between the social services to the family and to the children of AFDC
families, and the impetus and thrust that we have in the Headstart
program.
I wonder if you would want to comment a little bit more about what
we might do either legislatively or administratively to try to focus
attention on the need for us to work on the family structure or in the
whole area of the welfare family.
Mr. REID. I will be glad to comment. The reason we recommend
within this office a section of family and children service is precisely
for the objective that you are implying.
In the first place, the Headstart children and the children you find
on AFDC or the children you find served by the so-called child wel-
fare service programs, are essentially the same kids. We have done a
series of research studies and we find 90 percent of them fall within
the same economic or social level.
Perhaps about a quarter will be on public assistance. But the acci-
dent of their not being on public assistance is an accident. In other
words, economically, socially, job status, et cetera, their parents fall
in the same category~
PAGENO="0494"
1926
Mr. ESCH. You are suggesting that currently even though they are
not on welfare they do fall into the group which we have identified as
needy?
Mr. REID. Exactly. I think it is extremely artificial. I think in the
1967 amendments to the Social Security Act a serious mistake was
made in concentrating day care programs on children in the AFDC
family. It is important for the family to receive day care services who
are not in AFDC because there must be just as great a need. It may
be a way of keeping him from going on it but the integration of health
programs, programs to prevent children going into foster care or
programs designed to help families educate their children or develop
parental responsibility in our view should be integrated in one pro-
gram of service, in one governmental office.
I think that simply putting a Headstart program and a few day
care programs together, though it is popular at the moment, Headstart
is more popular than these other programs, I do not think it would
achieve the ends that should be desired.
Mr. Escn. You suggested that you have close to 400 separate agen-
cies affiliated with your league.
Mr. REID. Yes, sir.
Mr. ESCH. Would you see it of value to have some kind of a coun-
selor role to more fully utilize all programs, whether they be govern-
mental or nongovernmental, to help the family in need? Do you see
there might be a possibility that as we move into a broader child devel-
opment program in having a counselor role at the lower level?
Mr. REID. Yes, sir. I think it is important that something of tha.t
nature be developed. In theory we `have it `but in actuality it does not
exist in most of our public assistance programs. Th'at is, in every State
there `are social service workers, or people cal'led that, attached to
public assistance who are supposed to engage in family counseling.
Mr. ESCH. This is the question I have. They are attached to public
assistance?
Mr. REID. Right.
`Mr. ESCH. How do yOu bridge the gap between that, the new move-
ment toward total program for the family? We are well aware I `think
of the criticism that exists, sometimes rightly and sometimes wrongly,
that exists over t'he welfare counselor not being effective, being more
a policeman, if you will, rather than a counselor.
Mr. REm. 1 am very aware of that. And I think much of it i's legiti-
mate. It is very difficult to seek counseling from somebody who can
take away $10 from you if you tell him the wrong thing. I think t'he
* intent of Congress in trying to separate out the administration of
money payments and providing of counseling was good. I do not think
it has been achieved, nor will it be `achie~red until there are other basic
changes made iii the Social Security Act but the concept is a sound one.
The Headstart approach which did not attempt to divide the families
of children by some arbitrary means provides a somewhat broader
approach than public assi'stance, but I think the important thing t'o
be kept in mind, the essential one is `that there are three families out
there for every one that is receiving public assistance that are eligible,
`to my mind simply means we have four times as many people as we
think we do, who are in great need, and the `local family counseling
`approach divorced from public assistance per se, is one that is much
needed.
PAGENO="0495"
1927
Mr. ESCH. Thank you very much for your testimony.
Chairman PERKINs. I think you have made an outstanding state-
ment, personally. Do you have any feelings on the Job Corps?
Mr. REID. The Job Corps, sir, hasbeen used by many, many of your
member agencies. As you may know, in the legislation there are many,
many organizations that run children institutions, foster home agencies
and so forth. It used to be that the Army and Navy was the primary
job training corps. Many of our agencies have preferred children, who
could not go on for other education for a variety of reasons, to Job
Corps.
In general, I think there has been a belief that it has been an effective
mea~ns for a certain type of child. I don't want to pretend expertness
in terms of the details of the Job Corps except to say that we had a
discussion of this, of Job Corps, at the same time we were discussing
this issue with our advisory council executives that met in New York
2 weeks ago, and Biloxi, Miss. last week, and out in the State of Minne-
sota, and almost universally the executives present felt that the Job
Corps was essential for some of their children. Though they did not
send the number of children to Job Corps that would qualify them to
judge as between an urban or rural training center, or some of the
issues that I know are before this committee, though they would con-
sider it an enormous loss as far as the children for whom they are re-
sponsible if Job Corps were to disappear, or were to be suddenly con-
tracted severely.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Scherle.
Mr. SCHERLE. No questions, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. Let me thank you for your appearance today.
`We appreciate your coming.
Mr. REID. Thank you, sir.
Chairman PERKINS. The committee will recess until 9 a.m. tomorrow.
`\T~T0 are going to have to commence a little earlier, we have so many
witnesses to hear.
Without objection I will insert in the record a letter and articles from
newspapers.
LAKE CHARLES, LA., April 30, 1969.
Hon. CARL D. PERKINS,
Chairman, Education and Labor Committee,
House of Representatives, Washington, D.C.
MR. PERKINS: In reply to your telegram April 24, 1969 inviting me to testify
regard the extension of the O.E.O. for another five years thru Bill H.R. 513.
Please accept my regrets in that .1 cannot afford (financially) to make the trip
to Washington. With your permission 1 would like to request that my statement
be read into the record.
It is impossible for any person living in a social environment to avoid exerting
influence in some fashion on other people; the mere act of living imparts some
influence on other people's lives. Society establishes institutions to acculturate
and to effect social controls upon the individual and the group. These cultural
institutions are basically the family, religion, education, economics and govern-
ment. These institutions in exerting influence and social control also assume some
responsibility to and for the individual. When an offshoot of government is estab-
lished it must, or should, serve a specific purpose. When an offshoot of govern-
ment is established without clearly defined goals, or purposes, and without
clearly defined checks and `balances, and when it cannot stand to be questioned
by those who are helping to finance the venture, then it becomes socially dis-
ruptive and must be evaluated in the light of its accomplishments or lack thereof.
In mustering the nations resources to wage an armed conflict it is tacitly
understood that there will be a waste of manpower and natural resources, but
PAGENO="0496"
1928
it is hoped that this waste will be kept to a minimum. The war on poverty is a
different type of war, but none the less the nations resources and manpower must
be mobilized to fight this war, and we cannot afford to waste any of our precious
and scarce professional personnel, and financial resources on will-o-the-wisp
experiments by whim. If so, the poor suffer and become political pawns, but
more so, the nation becomes further impoverished.
My observation of Calcasieu Parish has been that not one family has been
removed from the ranks of poverty due to, or because of, the efforts of the local
community action agency. There have been attempts at duplication of efforts of
the "official" agencies by the local community action agency, but there has been
no real progress. There has also been strong adverse, and vociferous, criticism of
any individual who dares to question the expenditure of O.E.O. funds, the ad-
ministration of its programs, and its hiring practices. Those who do question re-
ceive no answer to their question, but instead are accused of being anti-antipov-
erty, anti-negro, (even if a negro questions), a segregationist, of questionable
character, of low morals, of questionable ancestory, probably a direct descendant
of a stray canine female.
In principle and theory the local community action agency has a good program.
This may be termed a good paper program! In actual practice the hideousness
of avarice, greed, deceit, and power politics nullifies the good that could come
about through the expenditure of the vast sums allocated.
The year-round beadstart program reaches about two hundred (200) chIldren
at a cost of approximately $3,000.00 per child. There are over 5,000 children that
should be in this program. The actual budget does not show $3,000 per child on
the application, but when one considex~s the time and expense that is taken from
other programs such as Conduct and Administration, Neighborhood Centers,
Welfare Department, Health Unit, and Charity Hospital the $3,000 figure is not
far fetched.
The headstart centers are crowded, poorly ventilated, not well lighted and do
not meet the standards established for day care centers. The reason that they
are permitted to operate is fear of being accused of non-cooperation with the
O.E.O.
The people that are hired for this program do not meet the professional re-
quirements for the poSitions for which they were hired, yet they are paid higher
salaries than are paid qualified professionals who work for agencies such as the
school board, welfare department, health unit, etc. e.g. 1. A practical nurse with
one year of trade school academic training and nine years experience as an
L.P.N. in a nursing home is not a qualified health educator. 2. A general duty
nitrse, even though he is an RN. is not a qualified Public Health Nurse. 3. A per-
son with three years or less of college training is not a qualified teacher, much
less qualified to teach a specialty such as pre~school or primary education, etc.
etc.
Sound health practices dictate that a child be accompanied by its parent when
being examined by a physician, a dentist or when being given immunizations. The
headstart children are hauled in groups for their examinations, and are also
taken in groups for their immunizations. It is rare for a parent to be present.
All immunizations, tuberculin tests, and laboratory tests for intestinal para-
sites are provided by the health unit at no cost to the O.E.O. Most of the medical
and dental work provided for headstart children is paid for by the Department of
Public Welfare or performed by the fadilitins of the Charity Hospital system, at
no cost to `the O.E.O. So where does the high cost budgeted for health exiSt when
other established agencies are performing the function?
The summer headstart program seems to be more for providing summer em-
ployment for people who are in-between jobs than for providing benefits to the
headstart enrollees. An eight week crash program has little if any carry-over,
according `to the local `school authorities. There is very little time for follow-up in
regard to the physical, dental, and other examinations. I have heard some dentists
complain that they have examined the same children each year, hut no money has
been provided for needed dental corrections. Each summer the headstart health
program states `that "nutrition consultations are conducted in cooperation with
the health unit nutritionist" There hasn't been a nutritionist employed by the
health unit for at least four years!
It is gratifying to note that the President has seen fit to remove headstart
from the O.E.O. It is hoped that headstart will be assigned so that the schools
will carry the educational function; the local health units will carry the health
functions; and the local welfare departments the social work functions of
headstart.
PAGENO="0497"
1929
The other large block of O.E.O. activity in Calca'sieu Parish is the Neighbor-
hood Community Center Program. There are other minor programs, but they
follow the pattern of the Neighborhood Program. Here again we have the
phenomenon of employing people, then attempting to find something for them
to do. Most employees are not qualified for the positions which they hold but
nevertheless they carry the title social worker, educator, etc. There was a
title "Home Economist," but much criticism was experienced in this area be-
cause some of the people hired as home economists were high school graduates
with a year or so of school lunch room experience. The title home economist
was changed to "Community Organizer" (?) with the same people employed,
merely changing titles. That is, one day they were Home Economists the next day
they were Community Organizers.
The Neighborhood Center personnel work primarily with families who have
headstart enrollees. At other times they "survey" the community. To my knowl-
edge there has been an on-going community survey for over three years. No
results have been published neither is the data used for project applications.
The figures used on CAP Form 6 are those found in the 1960 U.S. Census publi-
cation. So I would guess that the taking of community surveys by the local
O.E.O. people is what may be called "busy work."
I do not know of any project that may have long term community benefit that
has been undertakenby the local community action agency. When projects such
as "clean-up campaigns" have been worked-up in the community, other agencies
have planned and promulgated the activity, the Neighborhood Center people have
interjected themselves into the program and on completion have claimed "in-kind"
contribution. Without the official agencies the local community action agency can
accomplish very little, yet the O.E.O. people have managed to alienate repre-
sentatives of these agencies so that very little if any liaison exists. One can go
on and on with this, but it would be like beating a dead horse; its not going
to get up, and its not going to move.
The O.E.O. has touched and affected the lives of every one in the nation,
just by being. It has brought about some benefits, few of which have been
realized by the poverty stricken (poor). The cost has been exorbitant! The
experiment should be ended! It is time for a common sense approach to the
problem of solving social ills. It is time to employ training, experience and know
how, and to coordinate efforts within the various official agencies toward the
up lifting of the living standards of the people in need. This cannot be done
by well-meaning amateurs, or power hungry organizations or indiivduals. The
work can and must be done by the old stand-by agencies, but they need the
financial and moral support of the lawmakers. Therefore, I recommend that the
O.E.O. be phased-out and that the monies budgeted for it be made available to
the official agencies with the same fredom, to try out new approaches toward
solutions of social problems.
Respectfully submitted.
Sincerely,
LAWRENCE E. ESTAVILLE.
[From the Lake Charles (La.), American Press, Mar. 13, 1968]
GAP To Ta~ AGAIN To NAME DIRECTOR
Gulf Assistance Program (GAP), the parish antipoverty program, is going
to make another try at naming a director.
Tuesday night the GAP board voted to submit new requirements for the
directorship to the Office of Economic Opportunity in Austin, Tex.
The new criteria set no education requirements.
For the last six months, since the resignation of former director Bob Benton,
the board has been divided on whom to name as director.
A couple of months ago, by a 3-3 vote, the board named assistant director Willie
Matthews director, but the election of Matthews was turned down by the Austin
office.
Austin claimed that GAP should not have lowered its requirements from a
master degree to a bachelor degree. A. recent letter from the OEO office said the
board should make its decision with no stipulation of education.
The GAP board had lowered its qualifications because of the desire by some
board members to see Matthews takeover the directorship.
The OEO office indicated its knowledge of the rift on the board due to the
pro and con Matthew factions. OEO said in its letter to the board that it should
27-754-69---pt. 3-32
PAGENO="0498"
1930
not just go through the motions in naming a director having already predeter-
mined the selection of a director.
`Vincent Lamendola, board member, said, "We will be perpetuating a fraud if
we do not consider all applications."
Lamendola read a letter to the board which he had written to the OEO office.
In the letter he said the board bad at least five applicants who did not have their
applications considered. He claimed in the letter that the problem resulted be-
cause "action was being taken so the assistant director (Matthews) can be named
to the position (of director)."
The Rev. V. E. Washington, who has consistently spoken for Matthews, said the
letter was not a fair evaluation of the `board's actions. He said the board reflected
the "will of the majority."
The Rev. `Isaiah Buck, a Negro minister, said `at one time during the meeting,
"We have fixed it so Mr. Matthews could get the job."
"We are not here to represent black people or white people but to represent the
poor," he said.
Richard Brooks, board president, said, "We are on the verge of seeing our
group end if we don't do something."
Fred Concord, analyst from the Austin regional office of OEO, told the board
members that they couldn't advertise for applicants on one basis-requiring a
master degree-and select on another, "as you have done."
"If a pre-determined selection is made, you will not fool anyone," he said.
Rev. Mr. Washington asked Concord, "What if we pick Matthews? Would this
be a predetermined decision?"
Concord told the minister, "We will ask, `Did you pick the man with the best
qualifications?'"
At the end of the discussion and vote on the motion `to submit new qualifications
to the Austin office, it appeared that the GAP board may be able to select a new
director at its April meeting.
The first step will be to get Austin's okay of the new qualifications, next to
advertise for applicants, then to screen them by the personnel committee. The
board must make the final decision `before its candidate is submitted to the re-
gional OEO office in Austin.
[From the Lake Charles (La.), American Press, Oct. 14, 1968]
KNOWLES ASKS STATE USE OF OEO FUNDS
State Sen. Jesse Knowles suggested today the diversion of poverty program
funds to state agencies ministering to the poor.
The Lake Charles senator wired Gov. John J. McKeilhen saying that the poor
could be better served by re-routing Office of Economic Opportunity funds to the
existing state agencies which already have competent personnel to put the funds
to their ultimate use.
Knowles made the suggestion in light of the reported shortage of funds for the
operation of the state government and the reported necessity of additional taxes.
He said that he understands the Head Start program gets about $55 per child.
for dental and health examination.
Dentists charge $15 for a complete examination while doctors charge $5. All
immunizations, tuberculin tests and intestinal parasite tests are given by the
local health unit which is funded by local and state funds, the senator said.
No OEO money goes to these departments even though their facilities and per-
sonnel conduct the examinations, he said. If all OEO funds for such examinations
were routed to the State Department of Health, this would amount to a sizeable
sum to be applied to the annual budget and the expenditure of such funds would
be used for the full and best interest of the people, the telegram stated.
"Because of inexperienced and improperly trained personnel hired by the local
OEO management, services given are contrary to sound professional recommenda-
tions," Knowles said.
One example, he said is OEO funds allocated for treatment of children found
to have intestinal parasite. OEO pays for drugs to treat the children but does not
attack the source of infection. It is a waste of money because the child will be
reinfected shortly.
"By doing a small amount of research into the OEO funds as now expended, I
found the cost-benefit ratio of the OEO's Head Start program Is prohibitive," he
said.
PAGENO="0499"
1931
"Here in Calcasieu Parish it costs approximately $1,700 for one Head Start
child. This does not include the free services given through the health department,
charity hospital and welfare department," he said.
"It is reliably reported that if Head Start funds were handled by the local
school board, the same services, programs and training could be given for approxi-
mately $500 per child because existing professional personnel and facilities would
be utilized," he continued.
Knowles said he is sure the same is true over the entire state.
He suggested three courses of action to resolve some of the state's serious
budget problems and at the same time give professional assistance to the poor.
[From the Lake Charles (La.) American Press, Nov. 10, 1968]
OEO WIRE DRAWS REPLY FROM OFFICER
A telegram sent by Sen. Jesse Knowles to Gov. John J. McKeithen pertaining
to OEO funds distribution drew no response.
However, Dr. Andrew Hedmeg, Louisiana health officer in New Orleans, did
respond.
Knowles Oct. 14 suggested that monies used by the Gulf Assistance Program
of Southwest Louisiana, funded by OEO,be channeled into appropriate agencies.
He suggested to the governor that money used for Head Start be put to use
in the State Department of Education, the State Department of Health, and other
ngencies.
"The governor has not answered, but Dr. Hedmeg did," Sen. Knowles said.
He said since he did not send Hedmeg a copy of the wire, Hedmeg must have
gotten the story from news media.
Dr. Hedmeg's comments of Sen. Knowles suggestion are:
"As Louisiana's State health officer, as a physician and as a concerned citizen,
I wish to express my appreciation for your recent report to the governor regard-
ing the duplication of scarce professional service and expensive administrative
machinery by the Office of Economic Opportunity.
"Recent health legislation has focused attention on the accumulation of health
needs among the poor, and a new and broader concept of public health and its
responsibility for health services has emerged in theState Department of Health.
"Given the opportunity and the financial resources, our local health units can
and will be more responding to the community health needs, and more active in
the development of community health services for the poor," Dr. Hedmeg said.
The senator said, "I only regret that the governor has not shown as much
interest as Dr. Hedmeg has."
First, all OEO funds should be handled by the appropriate state agency such
as health and dental care by the Department of Public Health and Head Start
under the Department of Education.
A thorough and comprehensive investigation should be made into all facets of
the state OEO program inorder that the allegations of favoritism and inefficiency
be proved true or false.
Third, determine other ways the state OEO office might handle the funds allo-
cated to Louisiana in order that more people may receive more benefits of tax
dollars.
"I am sure the majority of the people of our state are desirous of helping those
who need assistance but they do not want to see their tax dollars spent on in-
efficiency or the poor continue to be poorly served," he concluded.
Knowles also suggested the governor use an existing legislative committee
with an experienced staff to conduct the investigation.
[From the Lake Charles (La.) American Press, Apr. 10, 1968]
NEw DrRECTOR OF GAP ASSUMES POSITION TODAY
Gulf Assistance Program (GAP), the anti-poverty program for Calcasieu
Parish, has a new director.
Elected Tuesday night was Arvil Inge, who held the position of assistant co-
ordinator of the Multi-Service Center program, before his elevation to director
of GAP.
PAGENO="0500"
1932
inge takes his new post today.
Willie Matthews, who has been acting director for the past eight months, will
continue in his previous job as assistant director.
Inge was elected by a 10-6 vote. One board member abstained from voting.
Matthews had been a candidate for the job until a week ago when he removed
his application.
The GAP board had voted Matthews as director previously, but his election had
been refused by the Office of Economic Opportunity in Austin, Tex.
The difficulty in electing Matthews had hinged on his lack of a master's degree,
which, it is understood, other applicants had. Inge lacks even the bachelor's
degree.
The board in receiving applications earlier had stipulated that the candidate
have a master's degree. Then it changed its mind to a bachelor's degree in order,
obviously so Matthews could be named to the post.
In last month's meeting, an OEO official suggested that all educational require-
ments be removed, which was done.
Inge, who is married and has one child, attended Dallas College and Victoria
Junior College. As a labor official in the state, he attended various courses, both
at LSU and at the University of Michigan.
Inge said he started his labor experience with the AFL in the 1930s, both in
Houston and Lake Charles. In 1959 he was regional director of the Operating
Engineers Union with offices in Houston.
Prior to 1959, Inge was a vice president of the InternatiOnal Chemical Union.
His wife is Mrs. Beverly Inge, who is employed by the Calcasieu Parish School
Board.
In other action, the board discussed programs for young adults for the summer
and the organization of a credit union for both those who receive and contribute-
help in the anti-poverty program.
Matthews told the board it would receive $24,300 for its summer program this
year and an additional 100 Neighborhood Youth Corps slots.
The program for those between 16 and 21 was expected to be funded for about
$95,000, but, Matthews said, the greatest portion of the money would be going
to Shreveport, Baton Rouge and New Orleans.
The credit union idea, as presented by Inge, was made a study issue. A board
member moved that a committee be established to report back to the board at the-
next meeting.
The board okayed the motion.
Inge explained the credit union program's aims as providing opportunities for
borrowing and saving, and for teaching classes in how to budget, borrow, etc.
[From the Lake Charles (La.) American Press, Mar. 12, 19691
GAP To SEEK FUNDS FOR FOOD, MEDICINE
The Gulf Assistance Program hoard of directors voted Tuesday to request funds
from the Office of Economic Opportunity in Austin, Tex., for an emergency food
and medical program.
Arvil Inge, executive director, said OEO notified him two weeks ago that a
program designed to aid persons in dire need with food and medication exists.
He said OEO guidelines will fund up to $34,000 annually for the program. Since
the first half of the year is almost gone, Inge said, OEO will fund $17,000 for the
remainder.
OEO guidelines provide that $5,400 will be taken from the funds for an employe-
to investigate emergency requests and $3,600 for a secretary. This would leave
$8,000 for the remainder of the year.
However, Inge said, the money is to be used to purchase food stamps for the
welfare department, which actually means the $8,000 will purchase much more
food. The program will be under mul:ti~purpose.
In another direction, Inge told the directors there is to be a mass turnover
of personnel in GAP.
He said the trouble is there are people working in the program because they
could not find work elsewhere and there are those who are just w-anting to work
there without putting their heart in it.
As the executive director warmed to the subject, he said there is a direct pipe-
line from GAP headquarters to somewhere and when he finds out who; leaks in-
formation from his office he will take great pleasure in firing them.
PAGENO="0501"
1933
He said when changes such `as promotions to h'igher jobs, or vacancies come,
there are dozens of people there to apply for the vacancy `before the employe to be
replaced has even moved `from his office.
Inge said with the coming political campaigns he must stress that employes of
GAP not become politically involved or use stickers on `their cars.
Inge urged the board of `directors to allow the evaluation, committee of the
program to study in depth the multi-purpose program. He said most people don't
know the real purpose of the program and `he would like the results of the
program known.
`The `board agreed to have the evaluation committee meet `with Inge and discuss
the programs.
The executive director announced formally that the Headsta'rt program of GAP
will officially be designated `to the Health, Education and Welfare Department
(HEW) July 1.
He sa'i'd while all information concerning .the `transfer of the program has not
been made known to him, be feels HEW may allow GAP `to continue to administer
the program.
Freeman iLavergne, president `of the board of directors, directed Mrs. Margie
Ward, GAP `secretary, to write a `letter to the Zone 3 Advisory Board and ask
for a new representative from the zone.
Lavergne said Mrs. A'udrey Deville, director for Zone 3, `has missed three
consecutive meetings and OEO guidelines require she be dropped as a director.
Lavergne urged all the directors present to throw themselves into the work of
the poverty program. He `said there is an apparent lack of interest on the part
of some board members.
He said if `they do not want to work on poverty and aid the poor they should
resign and let someone else take over who would really put their efforts into
the progra'm.
Most of the board members, he said, are `active in their pursuit's', but there is
an element which needs spurring.
[From the Lake Charles (La.) American Press, Dec. 4, 1968]
AGNEW SAYS OFFICIALS SHOULD "RUN" PROGRAMS
NEW ORLEANS-Vice President-elect Spiro P. Agnew says elected officials, not
the poor, should have the final word on policies and priorities in the nation's
poverty programs.
"Let us not see an absence of compassion in an insistence on competence," the
Maryland governor told more than 3,000 officials of the nation's cities Monday.
"Let ns encourage participation of the poor where they can make an effective
contribution.
"But let us not confuse the disclosure of symptoms as a substitute for the wLs-
dom of trained professionals. There is ample opportunity and need for each."
Agnew, a luncheon speaker at the annual Congress of Cities, said both state and
local governments at times "have been short circuited by an increasing, disturbing
trend of federal aid grants to nongovernmental entities."
Afterwards, at a news conference, Agnew said he was referring primarily to
so-called community action programs-a major vehicle during the Johnson ad-
ministration for participation by the poor in the poverty war.
"i'm not relating to nongovernmental entities that are well established, well
trainec1 and that have peculiar expertise for doing what is necessary, such as hos-
pital units and that sort of thing," Agnew said. "I'm talking about the community
action programs that too frequently involve grants of money to newly `formed
groups of individuals who espouse a lofty purpose without equivalent knowledge
of how to accomplish it. I'm not criticizing the effectiveness of this spending."
Agnew-, designated by Nixon as his liaison with state and local governments,
said programs that are working well "should not be disrupted to prove a point.
But I say the final determination must be left to elected officials."
Agnew, who described himself as "more realist than romanticist," said the new
administration's immediate problem would be "to scale down the gigantic federal
establishment.
"The process of `letting go' is never easy but thG federal government must relin-
quish some of its power if we are to re-establish the sensitive balance of our fed-
eral system," he said.
He told the news conference that Nixon had not seen his speech in advance.
Asked if the sl)eech could be a blueprint of Nixon administration urban policy,
he said: "If he likes it when he reads it, yes."
PAGENO="0502"
1934
[From the Lake Charles (La.) American Press, Dec. 4, 1968]
EMPLOYES HIT FOR COLLECTING OEO EXPENSES
BATON ROUGE, LA.-Federal officials have clamped down on employes of the
State Office of Economic Opportunity who claim their domiciles as their offices
and collect expenses in commuting to Baton Rouge.
State director Champ L. Baker of Alexandria has been collecting for lodging
and meals and using a gasoline credit card for travel to Baton Rouge.
Gov. John J. McKeithen had given Baker permission to use Alexandria as a
domicile, but he will have to list Baton Rouge as his domicile as of Nov. 30. Baker
had received $972 for lodging in Baton Rouge, the main office of the OEO, and
about $1,100 for meals.
Officials also ordered two other OEO state employes to consider Baton Rouge
their places of employment. They were George Theriot, program coordinator in
Morgan City, and Leonard L. Jackson, program director in Clarks.
[From the Beaumont (Tex.) Enterprise, Aug. 1, 19671
CALCASIEU PARISH ANTI-POVERTY PROGRAM EMPLOYEES To GET HIGH SALARIES;
173 PERSONS WILL SHARE IN NEW BUDGET
(By Margaret Benoit)
LAKE CHARLES.-The Calcasicu Parish antipoverty program is making poverty
a thing of the past for many of the 173 employes who are sharing the proposed
$836 thousand-budget when their salaries are compared to similar jobs in other
state agencies.
Although many of the job classifications in the anti-poverty program are unique
and have no comparable civil service classifications, those that can `he compared
show anti-poverty salaries relatively higher than civil service emp1oy~s in like
positions.
Both officials of state agencies and Gulf Assistance Program Director Bob
Benton emphasized the fact that the anti~poverty salary scale has to be higher to
attract employes since personnel are hired on a yearly contract basis with no real
job security from year to year, while civil service employees have the knowledge
that their job will be there next year if they fulfill their responsibilities.
SECRETARY SALARIES
The most outstanding example of salary differential is in secretarial salaries.
Gulf Assistance Program'~s `budget calls for three secretaries-two of them to also
do bookkeeping work with salaries as high as $495 per month.
The lowest is $400. The only civil service agency with a secretary making as
much as $400 is the Calcasieu-Lake Charles health unit, and she is only a few
months `shy of having 20 years service. GAP secretari~s could have no more than
two years service stnce the program is only that old.
GAP proposes a salary of $450 per month for a registered nurse, while public
health nurses at the health unit start at $360 and must work for at least three
years before reaching the $450 salary range.
COLLEGE DEGREE
GAP propos~s salaries of $495 per month `the Oalcasieu workers while the Cal-
ca'sieu Parish Welfare `Office starts its social workei~s at $400 and the parish
employes must work four-and-a-half years before reaching the $495 to $500 range.
The parish welfare workers must have a college degree, while GAP does not have
such a requirement.
`GAP also proposes a manpower specialist at `a `salary of $700 per month, and
when R. L. Brooks, mnnager of the local state employment office was asked who in
hi's office fit into that `salary range, Brooks said,
GAP director Bob Ben'ton's salary is proposed at $990 per month, while Parish
Welfare Director Vincent Lamandola, who `has been in his job 15 years, draws a
monthly `salary of $750.
The wide gap in salaries between anti-poverty programs and established state
agencies may work cither way. GAP may `be too high or civil service salaries may
be too low. Their com~parabilfty is difficult in many places.
PAGENO="0503"
1935
(From the Lake Charles (La.) American Press, May 24, 1.968]
EDITORIAL: GAP RE-EVALUATION NEEDED
A request by Gov. John McKeithen that Louisiana's antipoverty program be
completely investigated `by the U.S. Comptroller General is timely in light of
recent state and local developments.
The governor specifically asked that the federal government find out if the
program is being run by Victor Bussie, state president of the AFL-CIO. MeKeithen
said Bussie concurs in the request.
Pro-labor charges were first made against the war on poverty by John Snyder,
deputy director of the state program. Bussie denied the charges.
`Dennis Ware, coordinator of t'he multiservice centers for Ca'lcasieu Parish's
Gulf Assistance Program, accused the local action `agency of being pro-labor when
he was fired from his post.
Adras LaBorde, managing editor of the Alexandria Daily Town Talk, `reported
recently that Snyder's charges might not `be 100 percent right, "but he seems to be
on the right track; that is, organized labor's finger is deeply embedded in the pie."
LaBorde wrote that persons close to Bussie and their friends on down the line
are prominent in the inner circle of the antipoverty program in the state. He
said: "That is true in Alexandria-Pineville, and it is true in Lake Charles, and it
is true `in `headqu'aters at Baton `Rouge. It could be purely coincidental."
GAP's policy-making board `has been plagued with problems practically since the
agency's inception. Trying to replace the original director kept the board in
turmoil `for many months. Then came :the dismissal of Ware.
Many of the local problems seem to `stem from a misunderstanding of the pur-
pose of `the type program `being conducted in .Calcas'ieu. Our antipoverty agency
was created to educate the poor to make and see the results of effective decisions.
GAP `is not a job distribution arm of the war on poverty. Of course, jobs neces-
sary for educating the poor are created, but they must be filled with persons
qualified `to educate. Poverty becomes a factor in hiring `only when all other
qualifications `are equal.
`The multi-service centers illustrate ;the concept probably better than `any other
program. In. most are found a coordinator, educator, social worker, home econ-
omist and secretary.
`When such positions are filled through political favoritism, rather `than quali-
fication, the whole aim of the local action agency is defeated. GAP has been
known to hire persons simply because they were relatives of public officials or
influential citizens.
Antipoverty `activities must be completely divorced from politics, `labor, busi-
ness or any other considerations to `be completely effective.
War on poverty regulations stipulate that the poor must `be given consideration
when jobs are filled. Many functions can be handled by the poverty-stricken, but
still key posts must be based primarily on qualifications for the job.
GAP's responsibility simply boils down to educating the poor so that they can
qualify for employment in various sectors of our society. While the poor are
learning, allied arms of GAP such as day care centers, Head Start, the young
people's program and the Neighborhood Youth Corps assist in making the learn-
ing process possible andeasier.
Through these activities the poor are assisted with employment, job training,
counseling, health, vocational rehabilitation, housing, home management and
welfare. In the multi-service centers, for example, classes are taught in sewing,
good health practices, economy, budgeting, cooking, preparation of food and
nutri'tion.
Everybody involved in the parish anti-poverty program-members of the board
of directors, committee members, day-to-day employes and the poor-would be
wise to re-evaluate his position in the overall plan and reason for existence.
Too much emphasis has been on who got the best jobs and too little has been
given to who is best qualified for the position. The result has been chaos in the
upper ranks of GAP which has detracted from the efforts being made to educate
the poor of Calcasieu Parish.
We urge the Gulf Assistance Program to immediately begin an analysis of the
agency's goals and purposes and to decide by what means it will achieve them.
The investigation `asked by Gov. McKeithen should help to clear the air' so that
re-evaluation can begin.
PAGENO="0504"
1936
[From the Lake Charles (La.) American Press, July 12, 1967]
CoNFLIcTs IN IOWA GAP PROGRAM "AIRED"
IowA.-The Gulf Assistance Program headed into problems of alleged "segre-
gation" and another employment controversy Tuesday night when one local
faction made public several charges of administrative discrepancies and the
other faction tried to keep a lid on things.
The meeting of the Iowa Neighborhood Advisory Council in the ZiOn Travelers
Baptist Church erupted into a crossfire of accusation and confusion when its
pastor, the Rev. H. D. Parker, Iowa neighborhood center social worker, claimed
he had not resigned his post, contrary to letters sent out by GAP officials.
Rev. Mr. Parker's job status had come into question in June after an earlier
series of incidents in which he allegedly stepped beyond his authority and was
"stepping out of channels," according to one letter from GAP headquarters shown
to the American Press.
Another letter dated June 6 from Dennis Ware, head of GAP's Multi-Service
Neighborhood center program, who was present at the meeting, told Rev. Mr.
Parker he was being put on probation pending an improvement in his working
relationship with the Iowa center coordinator, Mrs. Mildred Haney.
Rev. Mr. Parker says he told Ware in a telephone conversation, "I am not a
convict and I cannot work on probation," and he produced a subsequent June 15
letter from R. G. (Bob) Benton accepting his "resignation," as witnessed by Ware
and GAP president, Arthur Darnsteadt.
Parker denied it all.
Joe Foreman, president of the advisory group, maintained "there is nothing we
can do about this," and later said he had not been officially notified of the termina-
tion of Parker's employment.
Prior to the meeting he had said, "We don't want any controversy."
However, GAP board member, Lawrence Estaville of Lake Charles, told the
group, "as long as you want a person in that job, he will be there," a point that
was then hotly contested by Foreman, Ware and Iowa GAP board member,
Martin Delaney.
One Negro council member said, "This man can't tell us what to do" in reference
to Ware, as the controversy grew over who actually has the power to have a
person hired by GAP.
Despite attempts by the Negro majority of the advisory council to give Rev.
Parker a vote of support for reinstatement, Foreman said an executive session
would not be held on the matter prior to the monthly GAP board meeting tonight.
Parker earlier told the American Press, "either tonight or tomorrow night, I
will be reinstated." During the meeting he claimed GAP had not paid him back
pay due and threatened "GAP" is going to pay me if I have to file an injunction
Wednesday morning." He also threatened to "take out picket lines."
The controversy stemmed mainly from Parker's charges that Hanney and Ware
were "knowingly permitting" a segregated program to exist in Iowa. The Rev.
Parker is a Negro.
The center coordinator is white.
Parker charged that when doing the program's initial house-to-house survey,
Mrs. Hanney submitted the names of the w-hite people without actually inter~'iew-
ing them, and refu~ed to accompany him through white neighborhoods so that at
least one white would be present at all times.
He said GAP should be for "not the Negro poor, not the white poor, but the
poor. l)eriod." He pointed to the small number of non-Negroes in the audience as
evidence that white leaders of the Iowa program had discouraged white partici-
pation to avoid racial problems.
In reply to all these charges, Ware said, "My actions need no defense," and
said GAP's termination of Parker's job was done for the "betterment of the
program."
Prior to the meeting. Foreman said Rev. Parker had been "headstrong" during
his tenure w-ith GAP.
[From the Beaumont (Tex.) Enterprise, Feb. 14, 196SJ
GULF AssIsTANcE PROGRAM DIRECTOR'S QuAlIFICATIoNs ARE LOWERED BY BOARD
(By Kathleen Malloy)
LAKE CIIARIE5.-The Gulf Assistance program board Tuesday night approved
in a vote of 9-8 modifying qualifications for the post of director so that someone
with "a degree" lower than an MA degree, might be employed.
PAGENO="0505"
1937
Richard Brooks, chairman, was empowered to name a committee to list reasons
to justify changing these requirements, which will be submitted to the Austin
Office of Economic Opportunity along with the new qualifications.
DIRECTOR SOUGHT
If the Austin regional office approves the change, applications for director
will be sought and a director will be selected to succeed Robert Benton, who
resigned to take another post nearly a year ago.
Willie Mathews, assistant director, is acting director. Mathews has a BA but
not an MA. When by a close vote GAP approved elevating Mathews to the top
position, OEO at Austin refused to approve the move and instructed GAP how to
proceed.
AGAINST DIVISION
Discussion was lengthy Tuesday night regarding what justification can be
given. It was cut off when Dr. Paul Moses moved that a committee be appointed.
Some reasoned that only those in favor of the lowered qualifications could be
on the committee and give reasons, but one or two who are opposed asked to
be allowed to serve.
Freeman Lavergne spoke out against the division in the board as reflected
by the 9-8 vote. He said he is afraid it will eventually lead to trouble in the
program itself. Mrs. Mary Dillon said in her opinion the program has already
suffered because of dissension among board members.
The Rev. V. E. Washington pointed out that when Benton, the first director,
was hired, the vote to employ him was 7-7 with the chairman casting the
deciding ballot.
James Baker said in his opinion, debate is good. "I would not like to see 100
per cent action," he said.
TWO NEW POSITIONS
The board Tuesday night also created two new positions and will apply to
OEO for funds to pay each person $650 per month.
They are personnel and public relations jobs. Brooks said the Austin OEO
office recommended that these posts be created.
He said the personnel man would assist with applicants and keep records
including training records of those employed. The public relations man would
issue news releases, make talks and contacts and assist in program development.
BOTH JOBS
Moses said he thought one person could handle both jobs but in the final vote,
it was agreed that two persons would be hired.
Acting on recommendations of the personnel committee headed by Robert
Lee, the board also employed teachers and station wagon drivers for Head
Start; a supervisor of volunteer service for the multipurpose center program;
an educator, home economics person for the Sulphur community organization;
persons for the zone 2 community organization and for the Westlake-Mossville
community organization.
[From the Lake Charles (La.) American Press, Sept. 30, 1966]
OFFICERS FOR GAP NAMED
The Gulf Assistance Program (GAP) elected officers in a harmonious session
Thursday night, but found the going rougher in electing a board which was
pretty-much decided before the meeting.
Officers elected and the group they represent are:
Arthur Darnsteadt Jr., president, Calcasieu Parish Police Jury; The Rev. V. E.
Washington, vice president, Inter-Denomination Ministerial Alliance, Mrs. Mary
Dillon, secretary, Police Jury and Vincent Lamendola, treasurer, Parish Welfare
office.
Darnsteadt, Mrs. Dillon and Lamendola were renamed to positions they already
held. Rev. Mr. Washington, although a prior member of the board, is serving the
first time as an officer.
Naming of board members was done by categories, with 13 named from a list
submitted `by public agencies, 10 named from nominees from "target areas" of the
parish, and six named as representatives of minority groups.
PAGENO="0506"
1938
The public agency and "target area" nominees were elected with little change
from the list submitted.
In the public agency category, Freeman Lavergne was moved to the category
from the minority category. Formerly Lavergne was a representative of the Labor
and Trades Council. He was moved back into that representation by a motion
from Rev. Mr. Washington.
Harold Williams, a representative of the West Calcaaieu Juvenile Council, was
stricken as a representative and the Juvenile Council, attempting to gain repre-
sentation on GAP, was not allowed to do so.
There were 174 members of GAP eligible to vote, but only 108 attended the
meeting. About 150 people attended.
The new board consists of:
Dr. Paul Moses, Calcasieu Parish School Board; Lamendola; Lawrence Esta-
yule, Calcasieu-Lake Charles Health Unit; E. B. Watson and Sam Mancuso, City
of Lake Charles and James Baker, Lake Charles Housing Authority.
Also Mrs. Dillon, Darnsteadt, and Robert Lee, Police Jury; Richard Brooks,
State Employment Service; and Frank Roth, Lavergne and H. C. Benton, Labor
and Trades Council.
Target area menibers-Martin Delaney, Iowa; Mrs. Louis Arnaud, Brownsville-
HiMount; Howard Rochon, Railroad Avenue-Enterprise Boulevard; Ivory Alex-
ander, South Goosport and Joseph Tate, North Goosport.
Also, Alvin Simmons, West Lake; Alfred Perry, Sulphur; The Rev. James
Poole, , Vinton; The Rev. Iasiah Buck, DeQuincy and Gilbert Freeman, Starks.
Rev. Mrs. Buck and Freeman were absent.
From the minority group category-Rufus Mayfield and Patricia Allen,
(NAACP); Rev. Mr. Washington; C. E. Coney and Ivory Beloney, Calcasieu
Education Association.
And Chester Jones, Southern Consumers and The Rev. Herbert Schuster, Im-
maculate Heart of Mary Catholic Church.
[From the Lake Charles (La.) American Press, July 12, 19681
Fni~ GAP OFFICIAL ChARGES PRo-LaBoR CONTROL OF HIRING
Dissatisfaction with the hiring and firing procedures of the Gulf Assistance
Program (GAP), the anti-poverty program in the parish, loomed into the picture
at Tuesday night's monthly meeting.
Also entering into the picture of the procedure of employing and firing em-
ployes was indication of labor's control of the personnel committee.
The catalyst for the reaction appeared to be the firing of Dennis Ware, co-
orclinator of GAP's multi-service centers.
Announcement of Ware's firing was made Tuesday by Arvil Inge, recently named
director of GAP. Tuesday night the GAP board acted on Ware's firing-by taking
no action.
By "taking no action" the board, in effect, okayed Inge's right to fire Ware,
although Ware insisted that it was the board's responsibility to act on any hiring
or firing by the director.
Ware told the board he would not request a hearing before the board's grievance
committee. "I've never worked where I wasn't wanted. I'll let the public decide
w-hat's going on here," Ware said.
A successor to Ware was not announced Tuesday night.
Ware told a reporter there was an alignment on the committee of pro-labor
forces who decided who would be hired as GAP employed.
The dismissed coordinator said those who held the~ power decided who would
be hired, and they made the decisions on the basis of race and labor alignment.
Inge, the director, is a former labor leader of the state, Texas and national
scene.
Ware said Inge was hired in his first position as assistant to him through the
efforts of the pro-labor members of the personnel committee.
Ware said the labor forces on the committee are Frank Roth, Freeman Lavergne,
and Jimmy Baker, all of Lake Charles, and Martin Delaney of Iowa.
Other members on the committee are Rufus Mayfield and chairman Robert Lee,
both of Lake Charles, C. E. Coney of DeQuincy and the Rev. James M. Poole of
Vinton, he said.
PAGENO="0507"
1939
Positions of the four "pro-labor" pei~sonnel comnilttee members are:
La.vergne, business agent for the local laborers' union; Roth, a member of the
parish central trades an'd labor council; Delaney, superintendent of the parish
food stamp issuing office, and Baker, executive director of the city housing
authority.
Supporting Ware's contention of Roth~s power in the hiring committee was a
statement by the supervisor of the Zone 4 center (South Lake Charles).
Mrs. T. J. Dugas daimed that the personnel committee ignored the zone's
advisory committee recommendations on the hiring of an educator for the zone.
She said seven of the nine members of the advisory committee of the zone bad
recommended a woman, a Negro who wals highly qualified.
Mrs. Duga's said the advisory grou1p's recommendations were ignored.
Roth jumped to the defense of the hiring of Jesse J. Verret, former principal of
LaGrange Junior High School w~ho was relieved of his duties as principal after a
hearing by `the Gaicasieu Parish School Board.
Roth defended Verret as a man "who has been stepped on."
Board member Rev. V. E. Washington asked the question and answered it him-
self: "Did Verret submit his application after `the cutoff date? He did."
After a lengthy hassle, the board okayed a motion "to delay the hiring of
Verret."
Verret had been hired, it appeared, in a lengthy personnel committee meeting
prior to `the regular meeting, which was postponed from 7 `to 8:25 p.m. because of
the secret session.
Recently an allegation wa's made by a `state anti-poverty official `that labor was
in control of the `state a'n'ti~poverty progra'm. This wa~s denied by labor forces.
[From the Lake Charles (La.) American Press, Aug. 27, 19683
WARE'S FIRING is UPHELD AT GAP DIRECTORS MEET
Amidst accusations of union and political influence, the firing of Dennis Ware,
former program coordinator of the Gulf Assistance Program, was upheld by the
board of directors Monday n'ight.
A secret ballot with 19 `board members present had `the tally 14-5 upholding the
firing and hearing of a grievance committee July 8.
Ware said after the meeting he would probably take his petition to the regional
office of the Office of Economic Opportunity in Austin, Tex.
Freeman Lavergne, a local union business agent, started the meeting by asking
that the board uphold the decision of the grievance committee's July meeting.
"He (Wa're) threw slander at iabor-I'm with labor-I've always been for the
poor, I'm poor myself. He said labor runs the board. It does not.
"I'm saying here we must uphold this man's firing, because once people find
out `they can't be fired you can't do anything," Lave~gne said.
He said Ware's reinstatement would endanger GAP.
The Rev. V. E. Washington took the strongest stand in defense of Ware when
he said the firing w'as premeditated.
"There are 25-30 members of this `board. Experts in some segments of our
community; We `have a jo'b to do, and I feel like we're not doing it.
"Arvil Inge fired this man.. The man be was working for just 30 day's before.
The `board created this situation by not taking any action.
"Inge at no time went to W'a're `and warned him his job was in jeopardy. This
was a premeditated thing. Some of the `board `members knew about it. The board
is in a precarious position. We've got to decide on a course tonight for the future
from now on.
"We've already heard what the grievance committee had to say. We need to
hear Ware's side," he said.
Harvey Gilliam also took a stand on Ware's behalf when he said the grievance
committee's report was too `scant, showing only their own views.
"There's `a `shady picture here," he said, indicating the grievance committee
report.
"All the charges `against W'are `were offenses that were supposed to have hap-
pened while Willie Matthews was acting director.
PAGENO="0508"
1940
"Matthews didn't bring the charges against Ware, Inge (lid. This is hearsay,"
he said.
Gilliam said when Inge took office as director he told employees to forget about
their past mistakes. He said that Inge told them he would probably make
mistakes.
"We can't run `this program like a union or political organization. The board
has to run it. Most of us don't want to expose ourselves.
"If we let this firing go through, Matthews is the next patsy. He'll be fired for
inefficiency because he didn't take action on Ware.
"There's a clique here, there are organized people here who hold meetings. The
way this program is being run we're helping to create poverty in the way we
handled this," he said.
Frank Roth, a local labor leader, took exception to Gilliam's words. He told
Richard Brooks, president of the board, the unkind words were misdirected.
Gilliam defended his words about the union when he answered, "You know-
all you union people know-if anybody in the organization don't dance to the
music you're out."
Allegations that lead to the firing of Ware were:
Insubordination.
An apparent inability to work with other persons in the program.
Holding a political office while working for GAP.
Disregarding purchasing policies of GAP by allowing the office to pay for
the electrical bill of a barber and beauty shop in DeQuincy in which the
DeQuincy office was situated.
[From the Lake Charles (La.) American Press, Aug. 1, 1968]
SECRET GAP MEET OKAYs PAY HIKEs
A secret meeting of the Gulf Assistance Program board of directors last Thurs-
day brought pay raises for four persons, it was learned today.
Proposed salary increases were for Terry Granger, a field representative, from
$550 monthly to $600. and Guy Davis, field representative, from $475 to $550.
Also the janitorial job filled by Charolle Dixon at GAP will be raised from $283
to $300 and the receptionist Mrs. June Roden, will receive $315, an increase of $15
monthly.
The salary of the coordinator of multi-purpose centers-the job held by Dennis
Ware until he was fired-will drop $100 monthly of $700. The job is being per-
formed now by Mrs. Mae Reed Handsome.
Aril Inge, director of GAP, said no news media w-as invited to the secret meet-
ing because it was hastily called and the guidelines and proposals for the coming
year were to be drawn up and sent to the Office of Economic Opportunity.
Inge said more closed meetings will be held by the board before the changes
of bylaws would be presented to the public at a hearing.
President of GAP Richard Brooks said today he couldn't recall any pay raises
except the usual three per cent raises that are annual.
"We made several adjustments. I can't tell you what they are. I haven't got a
copy of the thing," he said.
~ was a routine thing, changing the bylaws. Maybe we should let you fellows
know. Maybe we better make it a practice to invite the press to these meetings,"
Brooks said.
Inge and Brooks both squashed the rumor that board members had voted to
pay themselves for attending meetings. They also stymied any rumors to the effect
that they had voted to extend their terms for another three years.
The American Press learned of the proposed changes today when an Informer
question was received.
The question was, "Isn't it against the OEO regulations for the GAP board of
directors to hold secret meetings ?"
[From the Lake Charles (La.) American Press, June 14, 1967]
HIRING PROCEDURES OF GAP UNDER FIRE
The resignation of a member of the Gulf Assistance Program board of directors
led to a continued hassle over employment practices in a heated meeting Tuesday.
Also heard by the board were complaints about inadequate health standards
of at least one more day care center, the second such complaint to be aired
within the past month.
PAGENO="0509"
1941
Calcasieu-Lake Charles Health Unit representative Lawrence Estaville told
board members late in the meeting that "one more day care center will be asked
not to open until it has met requirements."
He declined to be specific, and later told the American Press that only one
day care center in the parish did meet minimum standards, promising an official
statement soon.
On May 9 health until officials charged GAP with several health code viola-
tions, which President Arthur L. Darnsteadt Jr., said the time were being taken
care of.
Darristeadt said this morning the day care centers are operating under a
provisional permit from the State Department of Public Welfare "upgrading
(facilities) daily and making improvements in order to be in a position to be fully
licensed" by the department.
He said such practice was "standard procedure" in day care centers all over the
contry, and that full attention was being paid to all requirements in order to
be licensed "by the earliest possible moment."
Zone II representative Ivory Alexander resigned his position in a letter to
the board after learning that Community Action Program guidelines prohibit the
hiring of relatives of persons holding advisory positions.
Although Alexander could not have exercised any influence when his sister
was hired, according to Darusteadt, rules required that one or the other resign.
In questioning what he called inconsistencies in GAP employment standards,
the Rev. V. E. Washington charged that members of families of people in politi-
cally powerful positions in this community "had been hired by GAP."
Relatives of at least three police jurors are employed by GAP, according to
one source who asked not to be identified.
A motion by secretary Mrs. Mary Dillon to extend present restrictions on
advisory members to prevent employment of two persons from any one household
was tabled after debate over the results of such a policy.
Some members objected that such restrictions might cripple the Neighborhood
Youth Corps program, and amendments were offered to exempt it.
Mrs. Dillon protested the tabling of her motion, claiming "there are people in
this room with three or four members of their family employed by GAP." She
urged that hiring be spread around more evenly.
Other employment practices scored at the meeting included some in the two-
day old Head Start program. Mrs. Barbara Richard complained that some appli-
cants for Head Start teaching were more qualified than persons who were given
jobs.
After lengthy explanations it developed that 01110 requires the employment of
non-professional teachers from low-income brackets.
Teachers with adequate certification who are above the poverty level are often
passed up in favor of persons with less educational training who have done out-
standing volunteer work in the past. If they are in the poverty bracket, they are
sent to an eight-week course in child development and are hired whenever
possible.
Head Start employment problems were also brought up on the subject of teach-
er's aides. Only one-half the number hired last year could be hired this year, it
was explained, meaning that many Head Start veterans looking forward to
another summer of employment could not be accommodated.
Five of last year's aides were promoted to the rank of teacher, and 52 other
aides were hired.
Estaville denounced the hiring practices, claiming last summer one Head Start
youngster with a serious disease spotted in June was not treated until December
because Head Start workers in charge were not fully qualified for the fields in
which they were hired.
Lunchroom workers from the Kennedy Head Start program complained that
with the transfer of one of their team of three they could not operate their food
program, which they claimed was causing them to work overtime anyway.
Complaints about low pay and long hours for janitors were also heard.
Darnsteadt referred the Kennedy workers to the proper superintendent over
their continued protests that they had not been able to solve the problem through
channels.
The group also heard reports on Head Start from program coordinator Ivory
Beloney, who cited transportation problems and the need to re-balance numbers
of staff members due to inaccurate predictions of Head Start loads.
Beloney appealed for "volunteer services in any category from anyone who
wants to donate them."
PAGENO="0510"
1942
[From the Lake Charles (La.) American Press, May 11, 19671
PRESIDENT SAYS GAP FOLLOWS HEALTH CODE
President Arthur L. Darnsteadt Jr. of Gulf Assistance Program said today
the agency is working to comply with the health code at its centers.
~Tjolatjons alleged by Dr. Guillermo Vasquez, director of the Calcasieu-Lake
Charles Health Unit, were an oversight on the part of someone on the staff,
Darnsteadt said.
"It is our intention .and our responsibility to meet all criteria as set down by
the parish health department. We will make every effort to do so," Darnsteadt
said.
Dr. Vasquez in a letter dated May 9 criticized GAP Director Robert Benton.
He said Benton permitted to newspapers and permitted the opening of the
Sulphur Day Care Center without prior approval by State Board of Health
inspectors.
"This practice must be stopped," Dr. Vasquez wrote in the letter.
No publicity was given to the letter nor was it mentioned at a GAP meeting
Tuesday night.
Dr. Vasquez pointed out what be said was the falsity of a statement in a news
item in the Lake Charles American Press May 6, in which it was stated that the
Sulphur Day. Care Center "has four supervisors and has been approved by the
Calcasieu Parish Board of Health."
Since the center was moved to 314 W. Napoleon St. in Sulphur, and was re-
ported by GAP officials to newsmen, Dr. Vasquez wrote Benton that "The Center
does not meet requirements of the Louisiana State Sanitary Code and has not
been approved by the Calcasieu-Lake Charles Health Unit.
"The inaccuracy of the article, with the knowledge of the facts by all con-
cerned, is not commendable," Dr. Vasquez wrote.
Vasquez pointed out that while the health unit staff cooperates with the Gulf
Assistance Program it does not mean tacit approval of non-approved establish-
ments being listed as approved;
"We make it crystal clear and definite that this cooperation in no way implies
an official approval of the manner and means of the conduct or operation of your
program," Vasquez wrote.
Vasquez pointed out the responsibility of the health unit's functions and the
importance of proper health facilities in all programs.
"Your agency and the Gulf Assistance Board have been advised on numerous
occasions to procure a proper operating permit before starting operations in an
establishment, which must meet State Sanitary Code requirements," the health
director wrote.
"Your agency has on several occasions ope.ned an establishment, then, after
being in operation, has asked for inspection and approval, which we repeat is
not proper nor commendable. This practice must be stopped," he said in the letter.
The American Press learned Wednesday that a copy of the letter has been
sent to all members of the GAP board.
[From the Lake Charles (La.) American Press, May 10, 1967]
WEST CAL UNIT STILL PROTESTS GAP OFFICES
SULPHUR-A committee of Maplewood residents attended the weekly meeting of
Ward 4 Calcasieu Parish Police Jury Monday to ask their aid in protesting the
location of Gulf Assistance Program offices in Maplewood.
Wendell Bridges, committee spokesman, said more than 1,300 persons in the area
have signed petitions protesting location of the GAP offices in the old Maplewood
shopping center.
Committee members said there are only seven welfare cases in some 1,400
homes in the area and they did not think the program should be located there.
They said they believed the program should be located where the people who
need this type of aid could get to it without having to be transported.
"We don't want it, we don't need it and we don't think it should be pushed o~
on us," Glenn Baxter saicl~
"It should be placed where it is needed," be said.
PAGENO="0511"
1943
Jurors Derrel Koonce and Louis Beglis and Lawrence Fabacher assured the
committee that they would back them in their efforts to block the removal of the
GAP offices to Maplewood.
Juror Bob Frankland was not present.
Committee members from Maplewood said they planned to attend the monthly
meeting of the GAP board at 7 p.m. today in the Lake Charles Health Unit.
[From the Lake. Charles (La.) American Press, Aug. 14, 1967]
The Informer
Need an answei'to a que~stion that is bothering you? Write the Lake
Charles American Press or call 439-2781 between 7 am. and 3 p.m.
Questions about local issues will be given preference. Preference will
also be given to subjects not previously coVered. Questions concerning
individual candidates for office, or their qualificatioms for office, are not
acceptable.
How large is Lake Pontchartrain in Orleans Parish? How deep? M.P.-~Sulphur.
Pontchartrain,. a natural lake, is some 630 square miles in size. Statistics show
the lake to be about 15 feet deep,
.* * .*
Has the Gnu Assistance Program a specified retirement age? ir so, how can it
hire a sOcial wOrker whO is 7.3 years old or more? L.D.A.-Lake Charles.
Willie Matthew s associate director said there is no specified retirement age
He said if a man or woman functions properly mentally and qualifies, he or she
may be employed in certain capacitict.
[From the Lake Charles (La.) American Press, May 10, 1967]
GAP BOARD CONFRONTED WITH PETITION AND PROTEST AT MEET
(By Bill MeMahon)
The public, politics and poverty clashed at the monthly meeting of Gulf
Assistance Program (GAP) Tuesday night.
The public was represented by 1,301 signers to a petition-all from the Holly-
wood-Maplewood area, according to a spokesman of the area.
Politics was represented by three police jurors from Ward4.
Poverty had its representation from the 28-member GAP board and an analyst,
Bill Taylor, for the Office of Economic Opportunity (OEO) based in Austin, Tex.
An old "American tradition" held sway in the "solution."
Committees were to be appointed by GAP President Arthur Darnsteadt and the
representative of the people of the area, Mrs. Wendell Bridges.
The group of three each from both "sides" was to work out a solution to the
movement of GAP offices into the Maplewood Shopping Center-a movement which
citizens of the area have vigorously protested.
Mrs. Bridges, a thin, greying woman unadorned by makeup, first explained the
position of the Maplewood, Hollywood citizens. She gave no explanation why she
was the spokesman for the area.
She said her complaint against the "poverty program moving into the area" was
that no one live there "with under $3,000 income."
The GAP uses the under $3,000 annual figure to designate the poor. In this
parish, most of the families making below that figure are Negro.
Mrs. Bridges in her introductory remarks said, "We don't want the program in
our community, and our police jurors are with us."
Backing up Mrs. Bridges later on in the extended discussion was Ward 4 Juror
Derrel Koonce. He said, "The program won't work if the people don't want it."
And he indicated be was for what the people were for.
He also reminded GAP board members, "I voted to put some of the members
of this board on the board."
In explaining the position and the plans of GAP for the building, Darnsteadt,
who is an employe of the Police Jury, said GAP was in a difficult position of
having a good site but of having opposition to the site.
PAGENO="0512"
1944
He said the building offered "a sizable amount of square footage" on a "prac-
tically no-cost basis."
It was difficult to turn the site down, he said, for it was made available through
the Federal Housing Authority.
Although Darnsteadt did not say so, the plight of GAP in turning the site down,
now that GAP has accepted it, would come because the arrangement is between
one governmental agency and another.
The OEO office might frown on GAP paying perhaps a higher rental cost
elsewhere.
Possible use for the building is for headquarters for the staff of the now-devel-
oping Manpower Development and Neighborhood Youth Corps programs, Darn-
steadt said.
He said, "No large-scale masses of people are to be moved into the building."
After things got "hotter" later in the meeting, Darnsteadt said, "These people
(the opponents to the use of the Maplewood Shopping Center) are all in favor
of the poverty program, but not in their area."
GAP member the Rev. James Poole of Vinton, said it was "ironical" that the
Maplewood people should protest, for Maplewood was begun by the government
(in World War II.) Rev. Mr. Poole said, "You have it made. Now you should want
to help."
At this point GAP board member Vincent Lamendola made his motion to send
the issue to committee. It was quickly seconded by Robert Lee and passed unan-
imously by the board.
The work of the committees is to be discussed at next month's meeting.
(Whereupon, at 3:50 p.m., the committee was recessed, to be recon-
vened at 9:30 a.m. Tuesday, May 6, 1969.)
PAGENO="0513"
ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY AMENDMENTS OF 1969
TUESDAY, MAY 6, 1969
HousE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
TASK FORCE ON POVERTY
OF THE COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR,
Washington, D.G.
The task force met at 9:40 a.m., pursuant to recess, in room 2175,
Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Carl D. Perkins (chairman of
the committee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Perkins, Green, Dent, Pucinski, Hawkins,
Ford of Michigan, Mink, Meeds, Stokes, Clay, Ayres, Quie, Erlenborn,
Dellenback, Steiger, and Collins.
Staff members present: H. D. Reed, Jr., general counsel; William
F. Gaul, associate general counsel; Robert E. McCord, chief clerk and
senior specialist; Charles W. Radcliffe, minority counsel for educa-
tion, and John Buckley, chief minority investigator.
Chairman PERKINS. The committee will come to order. A quorum is
present.
Mayor Covanagh, it is a great pleasure for me to welcome you here
this morning. You represent one of our great cities in the Nation. We
are delighted to have your views.
Undoubtedly, the Economic Opportunity Act can stand improve-
ment and we are trying to do our best to write the best poverty
program possible. We are delighted to welcome you here.
You can proceed. Without objection, your prepared statement will
be submitted in the record.
(Statement follows:)
PREPARED STATEMENT OF JEROME P. CAVANAGH, MAYOR OF DETROIT, ON BEHALF
OF THE NATIONAL LEAGUE OF CITIEs, U.S. CONFERENCE OF MAYORS, AND DETROIT
The Honorable Carl Perkins, Chairman (D) Kentucky.
Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee: I would like to thank the
members of the Committee for the opportunity to appear here today to discuss
the problems of combating poverty in the United States. I am here representing
the U.S. Conference of Mayors, National League of Cities and the City of Detroit.
At this point, I would like to discuss briefly some of the more critical problems
we are faced with today from a national perspective.
The Committee, I am sure, is well aware of the major points of interest and
the positions which have been taken by the Conference of Mayors and the National
League of Cities in support of the Economic Opportunity Act and the Office of
Economic Opportunity.
Let me briefly sum them up-
1. Strong opposition to earmarking of funds for single purpose projects;
2. Inadequate funding, below what the former OEO director, Sargent
Shriver, calls the "irreducible minimum."
3. Year-to-year funding of OEO which disrupts long range planning and
proper evaluation and efficient, effective administration.
I. In order to emphasize the commitment of the nation and the government
to the solution of social and urban problems, the extension of OEO is imperative.
(1945)
27-754-69--pt. 3-33
PAGENO="0514"
1946
The emphasis on economic accounting in government planning has excluded
crucial social considerations. The urban centers need additional time to system-
atically and rationally attempt to assess their needs and develop programs to
solve problems and attack causes relative to these needs. The past fcw years
have permitted to the cities to move from a relatively simple program develop-
ment approach to complex and comprehensive social planning as a vehicle of
social change, with a corresponding change in the structure and quality of "citizen
participation" to a stage where they now have a valid and decisive voice.
This is, Mr. Chairman, one of several of the issues which I know your Committee
has been examining very closely in these important hearings.
On the matter of continuity-We are aware that the Administration has sug-
gested a one-year extension of this program. We know that legislation has recently
been introduced in the Senate that would extend the program for three years.
Because we are committed to continuity in our efforts to eliminate poverty, we
can only affirm, Mr. Chairman, that this program must be continued until pov-
erty has been eliminated in our nation. In saying this and in urging a long range
commitment by the Congress to this program, I am mindful, Mr. Chairman, that
both the Administration and the Congress may find it desirable to affect reorgani-
zation from time to time, but there should be no slackening in the national
commitment.
At the Federal level, OEO should be restructured to give it a high-level planning
capability. The Economic Opportunity Act contained a "preference component"
provision which was virtually a. mandate to other Federal agencies to make
maximal use of the local Community Action Agency. It has never really been
effective because these agencies failed to recognize and act upon it. Each Federal
agency continues to have constituencies and established administrative channels
which make it extremely difficult for a local coordinating mechanism to operate.
With less than 10% of the total poverty funds relating to OEO, what we have
now at best is an ad hoc approach to poverty. This system, given the history
and context of the poverty community, results in piecemeal measures developed
within a fragmented federal jurisdicitional framework which requires increasingly
greater amounts to maintain the status quo and the precarious balance that this
in~plies. We need a series of nationally coordinated, locally planned, interrelated
measures which are embodied in concrete programs with high visibility in the
poverty area and are part of a continuum to improve the lives of our poverty-
entrapped citizens.
We are aware that the Administration has proposed to reassign and realign
major components of the programs currently administered by the Office of Eco-
nomic Opportunity to other departments within the Executive Branch. As Mayors
and Chief Executives of local governments, we have always taken the view, Mr.
Chairman, that the Executive branch should have the widest possible discretion
and that the program can be given the administrative support it requires only if
it has the commitments of the Administration to make it effective. Quite properly,
the Congress should hold any administration accountable for its effectiveness in
implementing those national goals that the Congress has determined.
The continuance of OEO on a stable basis would have direct, visible benefits
both to the poor and to the community.
The poor as "clients" of the CAA would he assured of a stable life influence,
permitting them to establish future goals with a reasonable expectation that the
"attainment system" they enter will enduer long enough to realize their goal. That
is not just another short-term "pie-in-the-sky" promise.
The poor as "employees" of the CAA are a part of a high-risk experiment in
developing legitimate and meaningful jobs for people in new roles. In Detroit,
over 80% of the CAA employees are drawn from the ranks of the long-term under-
employed and hard-core unemployed.
But if the end result is going to be something more than poor people working in
poverty programs, the duration must be long enough for the business and service
community to recognize the legitimacy of those roles and restructure to accom-
modate them.
Mobilization and redirection of other community resources is a primary CAA
charge. This means working with established and stable community institutions
and agencies who are unable to coordinate their long-range activities to uncertain
and short-term federal programs. This~ very substantially reduces the overall
impact on poverty, and federal programs tend to compete with rather than
generate and support the expansion and redirection of community resources.
We at the National League of Cities and the U.S. Conference of Mayors, Mr.
Chairman, were deeply disappointed that the Administration saw fit to reduce
PAGENO="0515"
1947
the budget request for the Office of Economic Opportunity. In summer programs
alone, from last summer to this coming summer, Federal support in Detroit alone
has been reduced by nearly one million dollars. It would have been our hope that
the sense of national priorities would have led to a decision to increase substan-
tially federal support for summer programs-not reduce that support at a time
when we need it most. It is our hope that the Congress will share with us the
conviction that additional funds must be allocated for summer programs under a
priority rank equal to that of our national security.
Looking to the future, Mr. Chairman, the Conference of Mayors, at its Annual
Conference last June in Chicago, urged a program to provide at least one million
public service jobs for needed social services. We would hope that the Administra-
tion's recently announced program called Job Opportunities in the Public Sector
(JOPS) would receive funding at least equal to the $420 million it proposes to
allocate for private businesses. The President's Commission on Automation and
Technology has authoritatively reported that public services in health, education,
welfare, recreation, and social services are in need of some five million additional
workers. The lack of these public services is contributing to the decline of the
urban environment. The reason that they are not being provided is partly that
unskilled workers need training and partly that additional funds to provide them
are not available at the local level. A national program would be a major contribu-
tion in this area.
II. Citizen Participation: An inseparable element in the present urban crisis is
the frustration quotient related to citizen participation-it is higher in some cities
than in others, but high in all. There is no point in discussing whether there
should be citizen participation. The fundamental principle that citizens have a
right to participate in and influence the development of plans that will affect their
lives is no longer debatable. The social revolution under way throughout much of
the world has made this so.
But recognition of the principle does not mean that the practice will be or is
effective. It is easy for citizen participation to be an effective barrier to action,
just another layer of red tape, another means of immobilizing ourselves.
It is not unwise in principle nor in practice. It may be unpleasant for those who
believe that the poor should "know their place."
It may provide discomfort to public officials but what importance is that as
compared to the terrible problems which poor people must face every day of their
lives?
Growth and development of citizen representatives as committed and
responsible grass roots leaders.
Watch them in the process of policy-making.
Refusing to be buffaloed.
Learned in parliamentary procedure.
Raising penetrating questions.
Putting forward imaginative suggestions.
Vivid example of the kind of talent, and energy, and enormous human
resources that exist among the poor.
Spinning off of successful OEO programs must be accompanied by citizen
participation.
In the past, the lack of a knowledgeable involvement of the poor has deprived
the service agencies of a major relevant source of information and insight. By
doing so, we as a society have deprived ourselves of the only form of validation
yet devised for a majority consensus-critical scrutiny and rational dissent by
those with a different perspective. The stabilization of OEO would place the poor
in a substantially better bargaining position with other groups and institutions
to make known their needs, to suggest acceptable delivery patterns to meet these
needs, and to press for legitimate consultative and occupational roles in the
planning, programmng, and operational aspect of meeting these needs.
III. National Priorities: Despite whatever explanation is given, it is clear that
the War on Poverty and the vast crucial needs of our nation's cities and rural
areas do not share the same priorities as the defense programs or the two space
programs-NASA and the military's.
The deployment of ABM initially will cost four times more ($8 billion) than
OEO's budget of last year.
Conquering poverty will have greater meaning to the underdeveloped and
uncommitted nations of the world than a space station.
Putting men on their feet in renewed neighborhoods in our nation is cer-
tainly just as important as putting a man on the moon by this decade's end.
Such expenditures determine our national priorities.
PAGENO="0516"
1948
The remaining financial resources will be unable to cope with the demands
of our cities and the poverty of rural America.
It takes money and lots of it to purchase the bricks and mortar; to build
those new classrooms; to engage in job training programs; to provide adequate
health care -in short to insure that every American has the opportunity to
participate in dignity and derive the benefits of the most powerful and affluent
nation ever known to mankind.
We believe, Mr. Chairman, there are few better investments that our country
and this Congress could make than the strengthening of our public educational
system. The Elementary and Secondary Education Act and the Higher Educa-
tion Act must he given adequate appropriations if the improvement process
started within recent years is to continue. Regrettably, Mr. Chairman, this im-
provement process is putting increasing amounts of funding into our newer sub-
urban communities in comparison to our central cities. The Advisory Commission
on Intergovernmental Relations in its report on metropolitan disparities found in
its study of thirty-seven major metropolitan areas that, even with the Federal aid
under the Elementary and Secondary Education Act, the central cities were falling
further behind. If we are to be realistic in sharing the educational attainment of
the central city poor, a major increase in Federal support will be required. The
present 73-i % contribution towards such an important national objective seems to
us inadequate.
IV. Detroit-The MCHRD: Nearly five years ago, the Congress shaped the
legislation which began America's War on Poverty. Many people denied its ex-
istence. Many said it could never be alleviated-that the poor would always be
with us.
No one at that time believed it was going to be a quick and early victory.
This has been true in Detroit.
But progress has been made.
Here are some of the things that have been done in Detroit's anti-poverty
program.
In 1968, 135,847 persons obtained services at Community Development
Centers.
There were 54,729 new clients helped in 1968.
Approximately 17,000 persons secured jobs as a result of anti-poverty
services last year.
Under Detroit's Concentrated Employment Program, efforts over the past
two years have been aimed at gaining job placements in the private sector
for an additional 4,000 persons.
Additional thousands have entered job training and educational programs.
Since OJT has been part of Detroit's anti-poverty effort, some 2,000
trainees have participated in the program.
Trainees were hired by more than 272 different employers.
More than 40 different job classifications were filled by persons who took
part in the program.
It goes without saying, of course, that there have been failures as well as
successes. Some programs which seemed promising in theory have proved un-
successful in execution. Even more projects have produced limited results, not
because the concept was faulty or administration was inadequate, but because
they were given neither enough time nor enough funds to do the job.
If the validity of the total program-whether in this city or nationally-is to
be judged by whether or not poverty has been eliminated or even substantially
reduced in the last four years, then we would have to agree that the program has
failed. But I think that no reasonable person could apply so stern and unrealistic
a test. You cannot declare a total war and expect total victory unless you prose-
cute it with total commitment. And you cannot in fairness cashier a field com-
mander whose battle plan requires tanks and heavy artifiery but who is issued
only slingshots and popguns.
I submit to you that the poverty program was meant to be innovative and risk-
taking. As such, it ought to be considered comparable to the research and develop-
ment programs of industry and government. Such programs pre-suppose that
errors will be made in exploring the unknown, that some ideas can he proved or
disproved only if one is willing to risk a commitment of resources, that input
does not guarantee output.
I hope that the national administration and the Congress remain open to innova-
tion. Let us, by all means, learn from mistakes, but let us not be afraid to make
mistakes. Let us try new and different approaches, hut let us not, I pray, wash
our hands of the tragedy of poverty in this country.
PAGENO="0517"
1949
The progress we have made since 1964 has been encouraging. It has also been
insufficient. A renewed commitment and enlarged commitment are essential.
We are confident, Mr. Chairman, that you and your Committee will once again, as
you have so often in the past, provide the leadership that will strengthen our
national life. In doing this, Mr. Chairman, you will be giving our cities the support
and hope that they so badly need.
STATEMENT OF HON. JEROME CAVANAGH, MAYOR, CITY OP
DETROIT, MICH.; ACCOMPANIED BY RICHARD SIMMONDS,
FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE MAYOR'S COMMITTEE FOR HUMAN
RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mayor CAVANAGH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of
the committee.
Let me first say that I am appearing not only on behalf of the city
which I am privileged to represent, Detroit, but here, too, representing
the U.S. Conference of Mayors and the National League of Cities,
two major municipal organizations in the United States.
I would say to you, also, Mr. Chairman, personally that I am very
cognizant of your great interest as well as your past history in support
of this legislation and those of us that have fought hard and long to
have this legislation enacted are quite cognizant of your efforts and
greatly appreciative of those personal efforts of yours.
At this point I would like to discuss briefly some of the very critical
problems with which we are faced today from a national perspective.
The committee, I am sure, is well aware of the major points of interest
and the positions which have been taken by the Conference of Mayors
and the National League of Cities in support of the Economic Opportu-
nity Act and the Office of Economic Opportunity.
Let me briefly sum them up. Both the U.S. Conference of Mayors
and the National League of Cities have expressed strong opposition
to the earmarking of funds for single-purpose projects. They have
expressed certainly strong opposition to the inadequate funding,
below what the former OEO Director, Sargent Shriver, called the
"irreducible minimum" and, of course, I have opposed in testimony
before your committee, Mr. Chairman, when you, I think, have been
chairman of it and as well as your predecessor, year-to-year funding
of OEO, which really disrupts long-range planning and proper
evaluation.
Chairman PERKINS. Do you agree with my thinking that we must
have the continuity of programs and in order to accomplish that,
we have got to have longer than 1 year and an advanced funding
provision so you can sensibly plan in the future?
Mayor CAVANAGH. Yes.
Mr. Chairman, incidentally, in relation to that, several years ago
one member of your committee asked me why it was that the private
sector wasn't more deeply involved in some of the efforts of the
poverty program.
One of the reasons I attributed to that lack of participation at that
time was the fact that it was merely funded on a year-to-year basis
and rio business in America would properly engage very actively in
this kind of activity unless it was funded on a longer period of time.
Chairman PERKINS. Yes. Before we leave that point of view,
the bill that I introduced calls for an extension of 5 years. What
in your judgment would be a reasonable leadtime that we should
write into law here in your experience as mayor?
PAGENO="0518"
1950
Mayor CAVANAGH. Neither the Conference of Mayors nor the
National League of Cities has specifically identified a period of time,
but I would say to you, Mr. Chairman, but at least a minimum of 3
years and preferably longer from a personal standpoint and from
watching the operation of our own Mayor's Committee on Human
Resources Development in the city. It would be most desirable, not
just for its administration, but more importantly from the stand-
point of the community and the people that these programs are in-
tended to serve.
I think that is the real key to the necessity of having greater con-
tinuity in this act and in the funding.
Chairman PERKINS. You have been designated to represent the
mayors throughout the Nation here today, I take it, from your
statement.
1\'Iayor CAVANAGH. Yes; that is correct.
Chairman PERKINS. Go right ahead, ~`1ayor Cavanagh.
~`1ayor CAVANAGH. I think in order to emphasize the commitment
of the Nation and certainly our Government, our National Govern-
ment, to the solution of both social and urban problems, the existence
of OEO is imperative. The emphasis on economic accounting in
Government planning, I believe, has excluded some very crucial
social considerations.
The urban centers need additional time to systematically, and I
think in a more rational way, a word that seems to be politically quite
fashionable today, rationalization, but it is true that we do need to
rationally attempt to assess their needs and develop programs to
solve problems and to attack causes relative to these needs.
I have been joined at the witness table, Mr. Chairman, by Mr.
Richard Simmonds, who up until a day or two ago has been the
director of the mayor's committee for human resources development.
Chairman PERKINS. We are glad to welcome you here.
Mayor CAVANAGH. He is now associated with Wayne State Univer-
sity in Detroit. I asked him to appear here today in case any members
of the committee had questions they might wish to direct to N'Ir.
Simmonds or myself.
But to continue, the past few years I think have permitted the cities
to move from a relatively simple program development approach to
complex and comprehensive social planning as a vehicle of social
change, with a corresponding change in both the structure and the
quality of citizen participation to a stage where they now have a very
valid and, I might add, a decisive voice.
This is, Mr. Chairman, I know one of the issues which your com-
mittee has been examining very closely in these extremely important
hearings; this question of citizen participation. But on the matter of
continuity, if I might for the purpose of the record, particularly, we
are aware that the administration has suggested merely a 1-year
extension of this program.
We know that legislation has been introduced in the Senate, for
example, that would extend the program for 3 years and because we
are committed, as I have indicated earlier, to continuity in our own
efforts to eliminate poverty, we can only affirm, Mr. Chairman, that
this program must be continued on a much longer range basis until
poverty has been eliminated in this Nation.
PAGENO="0519"
1951
In saying this, and in urging a long-range commitment by the
Congress to this program, I am mindful, Mr. Chairman, that both
the administration and the Congress may find it desirable from time
to time to effect the reorganization, but I do believe having said this,
that at the same time there should be no slackening in the national
commitment.
At the Federal level, the OEO should be restructured to give it a
higher level planning capability. The Economic Opportunity Act con-
tained a "preference component" provision which was virtually a
mandate to other Federal agencies to make maximum use of the local
community action agency. But it has never really been effective,
Mr. Chairman, because these agencies failed to recognize and act upon
that which I thought was a mandate of the Congress in the act itself.
Each Federal agency continues to have constituencies and stand-
ard administrative channels which make it extremely difficult, and I
can't emphasize that strongly enough, for a local coordinating mecha-
nism to operate. With less than 10 percent of the total poverty fund
relating to OEO, what we now have at best I would submit to you,
Mr. Chairman, is an ad hoc approach to this whole question of poverty.
This system, given the history and the context of the poverty
community, results in piecemeal measures developed within a frag-
mented Federal jurisdictional framework which requires increasingly
greater amounts to even maintain the status quo and the very pre-
carious balance that this status quo implies.
We need a series of nationally coordinated, locally planned inter-
related measures which are embodied in very concrete programs
with high visibility in the poverty area and are part of the continued
effort to improve the lives of our poverty-entrapped citizens.
We are aware that the administration has proposed to reassign and
realine major components of the programs currently administered by
the Office of Economic Opportunity to other departments within the
executive branch. Certainly, as mayors and chief executives of local
government, we have always taken the view, Mr. Chairman, that
there should be some flexibility within the executive branch and it
should have wide discretion, that the program can be given the
administrative support it requires only if it has the commitment,
though, of the administration to make it effective.
Merely the reshuffling of component parts is no insurance~ what-
soever-as a matter of fact, I have the very subjective feeling that the
stated objective, in fact, might not be accomplished. Quite properly
I think the Congress and particularly your committee, as you have
done so ably, should hold any administration accountable for its
effectiveness in implementing those national goals that the Members
of the Congress have determined.
The continuance of OEO on a stable basis would have very direct
and sizable benefits, not just to the poor citizens of any community,
but to the community as a whole and I think this is a point that is
frequently overlooked in any assessment of the poverty program.
Chairman PERKINS. Before we leave that point, Mayor Cavanagh,
I am wondering how we can strengthen OEO, if we take from it some
of the best programs. I just thought I would get your viewpoint on
this proposal to take out of OEO Headstart and Job Corps. Do you
feel that we can accomplish the purpose that you have just stated if
we take out these programs or move them from OEO?
PAGENO="0520"
1952
Mayor CAVANAGH. Let me say so the record is clear, Mr. Chairman,
and there can be no misui:iderstanding on this. There may be some
other mayors that might not share my view, although I am inclined
to feel very strongly that the majority feel as I do, that the minute
you begin to dismantle those parts of the program that have high
visibility and apparently a greater political constituency, it weakens
and diminishes the Office of Economic Opportunity itself and in the
long run, of course, if you remove enough of the more stable and visible
public opinions, the whole program will collapse.
Chairman PERKINS. That has been my view all the way through
this year. You can't shift it and say we are going to strengthen. That
just doesn't make good sense, you know.
Mayor CAVANAGH. I would like to also point out to the chairman
as he knows so well, and I believe you have stated, Mr. Chairman, and
I have stated in testimony before this committee when this act was
originally under consideration, and that is this: That some of the old-
line departments, as well-intentioned and well-motivated as I am
sure they are, but they help, I won't say to get us into the kind of
mess in which we find ourselves, which caused the poverty program to
become a necessity, but they didn't directly address themselves for
a variety of reasons to some of the things that gave rise to the poverty
program.
Now we are assuming merely by taking parts off and giving them
back into these departments or agencies, that somehow they are going
to produce in a better way than history has demonstrated they have
produced in the past. I am not holding to that notwithstanding which
administration is in power.
Mr. STEIGER. I am somewhat confused, Mr. Mayor, by this colloquy
that has just taken place. Am I to take from your statement that
you are reflecting the view of the National Conference of Mayors,
the League of Cities in opposing transfers or is that a personal view?
Mayor CAVANAGH. I would say it would be a personal view to be very
candid with you, but I would always say to you, Mr. Congressman,
with all due respect, that I am sure that personal view is shared by
the majority of mayors in America. But I say that subjectively
because the National League of Cities and the U.S. Conference of
Mayors officially at their annual meetings have to my knowledge not
taken specific positions.
But I know I have discussed this with mayOrs of both the Demo-
cratic and Republican persuasions of every major city in America, both
large and small, and traditionally we have stood in opposition to the
dismantling of the OEO and the transferring out of these programs.
Mr. STEIGER. But you are in this statement and in this position
reflecting a subjective view of your own and not an official position.
Chairman PERKINS. He has made it very clear and he stated that
and then he qualified his statement.
Mr. STEIGER. I am aware of his qualifications.
Chairman PERKINS. He said a majority of the mayors felt that way
in the country.
Mr. STEIGER. I want the record clear that this does not reflect an
official position of either of the organizations which lie is here testi-
fying on behall of today.
Are you aware of John Gardner's statement to the Senate last
week?
PAGENO="0521"
1953
Mayor CAVANAGH. I am aware of Mr. Gardner's position since I
serve on the steering committee of the Urban Coalition and he and I
are in disagreement on what, for example, the Department of Health,
Education, and Welfare can and should be doing in these areas.
He holds a somewhat contrary view that he does believe that at least
some portions of the poverty program should be more efficiently
administered elsewhere. I don't share that view.
Mr. STEIGER. I appreciate your saying that you do, in fact, dis-
agree with John Gardner. I am impressed with his statement that he
is as unhappy with those who wish to abolish OEO as he is with those
who wish to keep it under glass.
I happen to share his view that those who take the position that
we should do nothing except try to maintain OEO as an agency,
miss the point. When you talk about stability, and I share that,
when you talk about the needs for a sizable agency concerned with
the problems of poverty, are you really talking about the community
action concept rather than OEO as an agency?
In other words, Sargent Shriver, Burt Harding, Lyndon Johnson,
any one of those who have been associated with the poverty program,
I think, made it quite clear that they never saw this as an agency
that for all time would keep all of its component parts.
Mayor CAVANAGH. Mr. Congressman, yes, I am familiar with some
of the statements of both Mr. Harding and Mr. Shriver. I have served
for about 5 years as a member of the Public Officials Advisory Council
of the Office of Economic Opportunity and I must say that I don't
hold to the view that it should operate under glass, but what I did
say earlier maybe desires or deserves at least some reemphasis.
rftat is to expect locally to coordinate a poverty effort through a
community action agency when you are dealing with a series of frag-
thented Federal programs with locked-in bureaucracies that frequently
deal with their counterparts on a State level is an impossibility.
I will specifically refer you to, Mr. Congressman, the Department
of Labor and its general counterpart on a State level, the Employ-
ment Security Commissions, in which the manpower programs, I
think, in this country compared to the investment have been an
abysmal failure and one of the reasons for it has been because of this
duality, the Department of Labor working with the State and fre-
quently if not working at cross-purposes, not working closely enough
with the community action agency.
So merely putting these programs back into those Departments as
well motivated as the administrators might be, to me doesn't repre-
sent an answer. I think what we should do is take the OEO and sort
out those things that are inefficient and improper and give it the kind
of vitality and life and funding which once and for all can demonstrate
whether, in fact, it did do the job.
I think it is almost self-defeating. I know you don't want me to make
a speech and I won't. But let me conclude by saying this: You know,
it is sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Critics of OEO always claimed
that it couldn't do the job. Then they set out to prove that it wouldn't
do the job by underfunding it and then would point a year later to
the inadequacy of the operation by saying, "See, I told you it wouldn't
work" because it hadn't been funded in the first place.
I think for once if we would try-I say this somewhat facetiously,
but it is just true-but I would like to try for one time, for 1 year,
PAGENO="0522"
1954
try money as an answer in some of these programs and if that didn't
work, we would go back to the old system, whether it be in the prob-
lems of the cities or inadequately funding OEO or anything else.
But it has been a stepchild. It hasn't had the kind of political
constituency as some other national programs have had and as a
result, it has been easy to attack politically by people of both political
persuasions. I am not attributing this to one party or another.
I think I get into that a little later in this whole question of research
in the social area on the part of our National Government and how
it is looked upon with a degree of skepticism that if we apply that
same degree of skepticism in all other research in our national effort,
we wouldn't be where we are today.
Chairman PERKINS. Let's let the distinguished witness proceed
with his statement.
Mayor CAVANAGH. I ask the indulgence of the Chair.
Mr. Chairman, the poor, as the so-called clients of CAA, I think
would be assured of a stable life through permitting them to establish
future goals with the reasonable expectation that the attainment
system they entered will endure long enough to realize their goal that
it is not just another short term pie-in-the-sky promise.
The poor as employees of the CAA are part of, I think, a very high
risk business experiment in developing legitimate and meaningful jobs
for people in new roles.
In our city, Detroit, over 80 percent of the CAA employees are
drawn from the ranks of the long term underemployed and the hard-
core unemployed-over 80 percent of the personnel in that program.
I think there are approximately 1,500 people in that program as
employees today in the community.
But if the end result is going to be something more than poor people
merely working in poverty programs, the duration must be long
enough for business and the service community to recognize the legiti-
macy of these roles and restructure themselves to be able to accom-
modate them.
Mobilization and redirection of other community resources is a
primary CAA charge. This means working with both the established
and stable community institutions and agencies who are irnable to
coordinate their long range activities to uncertain and short term
Federal programs.
We have had this happen in which they say, "We have got our
programs. They are in the planning process for several years. We
really can't accommodate very well to a short-term 1-year Federal
program."
This very substantially reduces the overall impact on poverty and
Federal programs tend to compete with rather than generate and
support the expansion and redirection of community resources.
We at the National League of Cities and the U.S. Conference of
Mayors, Mr. Chairman, and ladies and gentlemen of the committee,
are deeply disappointed that the administration saw fit to reduce the
budget request for the Office of Economic Opportunity. In summer
programs alone, from last summer to this coming summer, Federal
support in Detroit, for example, has been reduced by about $1 million
to date.
It would have been our hope that the sense of national priorities
would have led to a decision to increase substantially Federal support
PAGENO="0523"
1955
for summer programs-not reduce that support at a time that I
think we need it most, even more than we did last year, in 1968.
Because the riots of 1967, I think, Mr. Chairman, are rather fresh in
the minds of the entire Nation of last year and there was a much
greater effort made by people all across the country to keep things
calm.
But like anything else, they tend' to fade somewhat `into obscurity.
In 1969, particularly with the great campus unrest that is going on-
I am by nature not necessarily pessimistic, but I must be somewhat
pessimistic about the well-being of many of the major cities of America
of this coming summer and I think it is a mistake to be cutting back
in this area.
Chairman PERKINS. I want to take this opportunity to compliment
you, Mayor Cavanagh, on that statement. I think it is a great mistake
for us to be cutting back at this time. The error has already been
committed and will not be rectified unless the Congress through
supplemental appropriations does something about it.
I particularly want to compliment you on the way you handled the
situation last year. Of course, you may have gained from the previous
year, but I. left Washington when Washington was on fire, got into
your city of Detroit that same night, and had a speech there the next
day. I am a country boy, but if I know anything about some good
planning that had taken place, you and the others responsible had
done a wonderful job.
Of course, the curfew was on. I got out early the next morning to
make some inquiries and you are really to be complimented for the
way that you conducted yourself and the way you conducted the
whole operation. But I think you have hit the nail right on the head
here: That we inadvertently are about to commit a grave error right
here in this Congress, not funding these programs and cutting these
summer programs back. It is completely unjustifiable. There is no
way to justify cutting these summer programs back in the ghettos
of this country or in the rural areas.
I may say that they have treated the rural areas somewhat worse
than they have treated the metropolitan areas, very much to my
regret. But we have this situation and I am most hopeful that it could
be rectified.
Go ahead.
Mayor CAvANAGH. It is certainly our hope, Mr. Chairman, that the
Congress will share with us and with you certainly the conviction that
additional funds must be allocated for summer programs under a
priority range equal to that of our national security.
Because it really does address itself to our national security. Looking
to the future, Mr. Chairman, the U.S. Conference of Mayors, at its
annual conference last June in Chicago, urged the program to provide
at least 1 million public service jobs for needed social services.
We would hope certainly that the administration's recently an-
nounced program called job opportunities in the public sector would
receive funding at least equal to the $420 million it proposes to
calculate for private businesses.
The President's Commission on Automation and Technology has
most authoritatively reported that public services, in health, educa-
tion, welfare, recreation, and social services are in need of some 5
PAGENO="0524"
1956
million additional workers. The lack of these public services is con-
tributing to the decline of the urban environment.
The reason that they are not being provided is partly that unskilled
workers need training and partly that additional funds to provide
them just aren't available at the local level. A national program would
be a major contribution in this area.
If I might address myself, Mr. Chairman, briefly to this question
of citizen particiPatiOll of which I know the committee is so interested,
and certainly an inseparable element in the present urban crisis is
the frustration quotient related to citizen participation.
It is higher in some cities than it is in others, but I would have to
suggest that it probably is high in all. There is no point in discussing,
I think, whether there should be citizen participation. The funda-
mental principle that citizens do have a right to participate in and
through the development of plans that will affect their lives is no
longer debatable.
The social revolution winch is underway throughout much of the
world certainly has made this so as well as a variety of other things.
But recognition of the principle does not mean t.hat the practice will
be or is effective. It is easy for citizen participation to be just another
effective barrier to action and just another layer of redtape, another
means of sort of immobilizing ourselves.
I don't believe, Mr. Chairman, and we have had some experience,
sonie considerable experience with it in our city, that it is either un-
wise in principle or in practice. It may be unpleasant for those views,
and I would say it would be o few who believe that the poor should
sort of know their place.
It may provide, and it does provide, as a matter of fact, discomfort
to many public officials. I won't say that it is the most harmonious
thing in our city. It is greatly abrasive at times to me and to many
other public officials, quite unyielding, unreasonable, but I just have
to constantly remind myself that what importance really is that, that
public discomfort or private discomfort of mine,, compared really to
the terrible problems which poor people must face every day of their
lives.
I think if we were to watch one of these community action agency
policy advisory meetings in action, we would see some great things
that have happened. One, the growth and development of citizen
representatives as committed and responsible grassroots leaders.
There are always except.ions to that, but I think in the main at least
speaking from my own limited perspective, I have to acknowledge
it is true.
I think we could watch them in the process of policymaking, watch
them in many ways refusing to be buffaloed, including occasionally
by myself and members of our staff, if I wanted to be c.andid about it.
I don't mean buffaloed in the wrong sense of the term, but trying to
move things on.
It is always interesting, though, I might say as a.n aside, that when
.1 chair the Policy Advisory Committee meetings which meet once a
month, it means that the meetings generally last 4 or 5 hours as
opposed to maybe 2 hours if one staff member chairs them. It just
gives people an opportunity though to ventilate with the mayor of the
city there.
PAGENO="0525"
1957
That is understandable, even though, as I say, it does become a
little abrasive and uncomfortable at times. But certainly they are
much more concerned today in parliamentary procedure. There are
some very penetrating and good questions that are raised. There have
been some imaginative suggestions put forward and I think it demon-~
strates citizen participation of this kind, as a. very vivid example, of
the kind of talent and energy and enormous human resources that, in.
fact, do exist among the poor.
I think the spinning off, for example, of successful OEO programs,
if it is to be done, and I have already addressed myself to it, but it
must be accompanied by some degree of citizen participation which.
to date has just not been the case.
In the past the lack of knowledgeable involvement of the poor has
deprived the service agencies of a major relevant source of both in-
formation and insight. By doing so, I think we as a society have
deprived ourselves of the only form of validation yet devised for a
majority consensus-critical scrutiny and rational dissent by those
with a different perspective.
The stabilization of OEO would place the poor in a substantially
better bargaining position with other groups and institutions to make
known their needs, to press for legitimate consultive and occupational
roles in the planning, programing and operational aspect of meeting
these needs.
Mr. Chairman, if I might briefly address myself to probably the
most underlying question surrounding not just OEO, but all of the
legislation which the Members of the Congress are considering or
hopefully will be considered, and that is this question of national
priorities, about something about which many of us have been speaking
for a number of years.
Despite whatever explanation is given, it is very clear to me tha.t
the war on poverty and the vast crucial need of our nation's citizens
and rural areas do not, obviously, share the same priorities as the
defense programs or the two space programs-both the military space
program and NASA's space program.
The deployment, for example, of ABM initially will cost now,
according to the latest estimates released just within the last few days,
close to $8 billion, more than four times practically OEO's budget of
last year.
In conquering poverty, to many of us, will have far greater meaning
to the undeveloped and underdeveloped and uncommitted nations of
the world than even a space station, as important as that is; in putting
men on their feet in renewed neighborhoods in our country is certainly
to most of us just as important as putting a man on the moon by the
end of this decade.
The remaining financial resources will be unable to cope with the
demands of our cities and the poverty of rural America. It takes
money and lots of money to purchase the bricks and the mortar, to
build the new classrooms that are needed, to engage in job training
programs, to provide adequate health care-in short, to insure that
every American has the opportunity to participate in dignity and
derive the benefits of the most powerful and affluent nation ever known
to mankind.
We do believe, Mr. Chairman, both of these organizations that I
am privileged to speak for before you today, and your committee,
PAGENO="0526"
1958
that there are few better investments that our country and this
Congress could make than by the strengthening, for example, of our
educational system, our public educational system.
The Elementary and Secondary Education Act and the Higher
Education Act have to be given adequate appropriations if the im-
provement process started within recent years is to continue. IRegret-
ably, ]\~1r. Chairman, this improvement process is putting increasing
amounts of funding into our newer suburban communities in com-
parison to our central cities, where the need is even greater.
The Advisory Commission on Inter-Governmental Relations in its
report on metropolitan disparities found in its study of some 37 major
metropolitan areas that, even with the Federal aid under the Elemen-
tary and Secondary Education Act, the central cities were falling
further behind.
If we are to be realistic in sharing the educational attainment of the
central city poor, a major increase in Federal support will be required.
Mr. Chairman, nearly 5 years ago, this committee principally work-
ing with the executive branch of Government and some others of us
that were involved in at least some of the initial discussions shaped
legislation which began a very noble and highly heralded experiment
called America's war on poverty. Many people at that time even
denied its existence. Many said it could never be alleviated, that the
poor would always be with us.
No one at that time believed that it was going to be either a quick
or an early victory and that certainly has been true in Detroit. But
progress has been made, and a great deal of progress.
Here are some of the things that have been done in Detroit in its
antipoverty program. I will briefly capsulize them, because I think
they point out as clearly as anything I know some of this progTess.
In 1968, 135,847 persons obtained some services of one kind or
another at our community development centers in our city. There
were some 54,729 new clients or people helped in that year of 1968.
Approximately 17,000 people secured jobs as a result of antipoverty
services last year in the city of Detroit.
Under Detroit's concentrated employment program, efforts over
the last 2 years have been aimed at getting job placements in the
private sector for an additional 4,000.
Additional thousands have entered both job training and educa-
tional programs and since OJT, on-the-job training, has been part of
Detroit's antipoverty effort, working with some of our major private
enterprises with~in our community, some 2,000 trainees have par-
ticipated in this program.
I might add that these trainees have been hired by more than 272
different employers within our community.
More than 40 different job classifications were ifiled by persons
who took part in this program, all the way from telephone operators
to automobile mechanics, to the list that you could contemplate
yourself.
So it goes without saying, of course, that there have been failures,
and I am most candid to admit that, as well as successes. Some
programs which seemed promising in theory have proven unsuccesful
in execution. Even more proj ects have produced limited results,
but not because the concept was faulty or even that the adminis-
tration was inadequate, but I would submit to you, Mr. Chairman
PAGENO="0527"
1959
and members of the committee, that it was because they were given
neither the time nor enough funds to do the job.
If the validity of the total program-whether in the city of Detroit
or nationally- is to be judged by whether or not poverty has been
eliminated or even substantially reduced in the last 4 years, then I
would have to submit that the program has failed.
But I don't think that any reasonable person could apply so stern
and unrealistic a test. You cannot declare a total war and expect total
victory unless you prosecute it with the total commitment. And you
cannot in fairness, for example, cashier a field commander whose
battle plan requires tanks and heavy artillery, but who in effect has
been issued only slingshots and popguns.
That is what has been in the case in the main here.
So I would submit to you that the poverty program was meant to
be, both innovative and risk taking. And as such, and I have long
felt this way, it ought to be considered comparable to the research and
development programs of industry and Government. Such programs
automatically presuppose that errors will be made in exploring the
unknown, that some ideas can be proved or disproved only if one is
willing to risk a commitment of resources, and that input does not
guarantee output.
I would hope that the national administration and the Congress
remain open to innovation. Let us by all means learn from our mistakes,
but, Mr. Chairman, I would submit let's not be afraid to make some
mistakes. Let us try some new and different approaches but I would
say certainly let us not wash our hands of the terrible tragedy of
poverty that still exists in this country.
The progress we have made since 1964 has been encouraging. But
it also has been insufficient. A renewed and enlarged commitment are
both the most essential. We are confident, Mr. Chairman, that you and
your distinguished committee will once again, as you have so often
in the past, provide the kind of leadership that will in fact strengthen
our national life.
And in doing this, Mr. Chairman, you will give to the cities, for
example, and the great sections of rural America the support and the
hope they so badly need. I don't say that just for the sake of saying
it. I mean it.
The legislation which this committee has produced over the past
4 or 5 years is a magnificent testimonial, I think, to the commitment
of the people on this committee and the Members of the Congress to
the future of our country, but now, particularly now, is no time either
to stop or merely maintain the status quo.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. First, let me compliment you, Mayor
Cavanagh, on a great statement and in fairness to all of the other
witnesses that will appear today, I think we should abide by the
5-minute rule the first time around and then we certainly will not
deprive any member of the opportunity if he wants to go beyond that
the second time.
Mayor, I was impressed with your statement that this program
should be for a longer duration than 1 year. I think you stated that
it should not be less than 3 years, but preferably longer. Is that correct?
Mayor CAVANAGH. Yes, that is my view, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. In connection with the philosophy of. some of
our Governors that we should turn the prOgram over to the state-
PAGENO="0528"
1960
houses, or at least let them do the coordinating and proving, how does
your organization feel along that line? Do you feel that you have just
as good a claim to turn it over to the mayors of the Nation?
What is your view?
Mayor CAVANAGH. Of course, we feel we have just as good a claim.
But apart from that, I think we can demonstrate with some substan-
tial degree of evidence where you interpose the State in a Federal-
urban program, you frequently find that there is a diffusion of both
effort, energy, and money, And I can cite chapter and verse a number
of programs in which that has happened.
One of the latest, for example, and I was just reviewing some statis-
tics on the plane coming in this morning, is the Law Enforcement
Assistance Act which was enacted by the Congress last year and inter-
posed the State as the coordinating and channeling agency.
In the main, the State police is the instrument. The State police in
most States serve as a fine traffic. enforcement bureau. They don't
deal with the problems of crime on the streets of the city, but in the
State of Michigan, for example, about three-fourths of the people live
in southeastern Michigan, in Detroit, Wayne County and the metro-
politan area, but only 15 percent of the total funds for planning pur-
poses have gone to Detroit and Wayne County, yet Detroit alone has
over half of the police officers for the entire State.
That is a rather obvious example and one that is most fresh in
my mind. But the State has remained largely what I term a silent
spectator to the plight of the urban areas and, particularly to the
central cities. Even though we have had reapportioned State legisla-
tures, the balance of power has been transferred mainly to suburban
legislators and as a result, I don't think they feel any greater sense
of urgency at times about the problems of social disorder.
Again, Mr. Chairman, we are just removing the mechanism of
government several steps further away from the people. There is
enough complaint now about the impersonality of city government
in dealing with these problems. But at the same time, if you move
it away to a county or State level, you are getting . it even further
away from the people that need the help.
Chairman PERKINS. You are telling this committee that would
be a mistake if we so wrote the legislation along that line.
Mayor CAVANAGH. Yes, very definitely so, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. That is the way your organization throughout
America feels?
Mayor CAVANAGH. Yes, that's right.
Chairman PERKINS. You have likewise told the committee that,
in your judgment, that it was doing the program no good to spin
off Headstart and Job Corps and it was your personal view that you
felt that they should remain in the Office of Economic Opportunity
and the office should be strengthened and that it was the view of the
majority of the mayors of the country, even though you were not
speaking for them on that point, from your conversations.
Mayor CAVANAGH. Yes, Mr. Chairman. That is accurate.
Chairman PERKINS. Mrs. Green?
Mrs. GREEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to follow up on the question that was directed to you
by the chairman in regard to the State coordinating programs. I
believe you said or the chairman said that it would be wrong to
interpose the State. And I believe you referred to the impersonality
of the State.
PAGENO="0529"
1961
At the present time, doesn't the regional office either approve or
veto the programs?
Mayor CAVANAGH. Do you mean the Federal regional office?
Mrs. GREEN. Yes.
Mayor CAVANAGH. Certainly, they have the opportunity to; yes,
they approve them. They may in many instances veto them, but we
have the opportunity to pursue those further. There are some pro-
grams that the regional office initially might not have responded
affirmatively to that we have taken to higher authority and sometimes
been successful in having that.
Mrs. GREEN. Where is the regional office for Detroit?
Mayor CAVANAGH. It is in Chicago, Mrs. Green.
Mrs. GREEN. You are really saying that it would be worse to have
decisions made in the State of Michigan for Detroit programs, it would
be worse, than to have to go to the regional office in Chicago and
that the impersonality of the Chicago regional office is less objection-
able than if you went to the State office in your own State; is that
what you are saying?
Mayor CAVANAGH. Yes; I will say that, because there has been
demonstrated very clearly to me in my contacts with both the State
and the Federal regional offices a far greater sensitivity and aware-
ness on the part of even the Federal regional office in Chicago as to
the problems of the people that live within the city of Detroit than
that on a State level.
If I might just conclude, I don't want to give the impression that
the State has completely turned its back on the efforts of the local
poverty agency. That is not true.
The Governor of our State, both the previous Governor, now the
Secretary of HTJD, and the new Governor, have, for example, served
on our policy advisory committee, and his employment security com-
missioner and other State officials have gotten invitations in an
attempt to coordinate these things.
But I am saying, Mrs. Green, and maybe I didn't make myself
very clear, that our experience has been that in programs that are
supposed to have some urban impact on the lives of people that live
in cities, that if they are administered at a State level or through a
State level, that they just aren't as successful as if the Federal and
city government relationship is correct.
Mrs. GREEN. I regret that that is the way it is in Michigan. I would
like to testify to the fact, Mr. Chairman, that it is not that way in
Oregon. I can't for the life of me understand the attitude of some
people who are opposed to having the State have any control or
direction or interest in a war on poverty programs, but they are per-
fectly willing and support the theory that the regional office in San
Francisco, for example, or in another part of the country, wherever it
may be, is perfectly qualified and somehow more compassionate,
understanding and dedicated to the interests of the poor in a State
than the State officials themselves.
This is not true in Oregon.
We have found that the people who have come up from the regional
office of OEO in San Francisco have been the most abrasive people
that anybody could possibly have on a government payroll, the least
understanding of the problems in Portland. They have never even
been in the State of Oregon before they were assigned to come up there.
27-754-69-pt. 3-34
PAGENO="0530"
1962
They came with no understanding of the problems of Portland and
by the time they left, they had created 100 additional problems. This
would not have been the way if there were some State direction and
coordination. It seems to me that if we are going to solve the problems
of the country, we must somehow develop in Michigan as well as in
Oregon an interest in and a concern about the problems of the poor.
I think that this could be done and I for one have a great deal more
faith in the concern of State officials about problems within the State
than people who are bright-eyed and bushy-tailed who come from the
regional office with no understanding and who create additional
problems for us.
Mayor CAVANAGH. I don't want you to think that everybody in
the regional office has a viewpoint that I share. I don't.
I have had some very abrasive and very declarative sessions with
many people in the regional office that I think are out of touch. But
what I am saying to you, Mrs. Green, is that through some very
sorry experiences for 8 years now as mayor of the major city in the
State of Michigan, that I have found in the main a degree of insen-
sitivity and a lack of awareness on the part of State officials, one that
it really was not their problem, and one with which they should not
necessarily be concerned.
i\'lrs. GREEN. Does that go back to the time of Soapy Wffliams or
has that only been since the days of Romney?
Mayor CAVANAGH. I will have to say naturally that I think
Governor Wffliams might have displayed even a greater insensitivity,
but the problems were much different then.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Erlenborn?
Mr. ERLENBORN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
In Illinois, Mayor, and, I think in most States, the constitution of
the State vests all power in the State government except that spe-
cifically withheld. The cities and municipalities are creatures of the
State with such powers as given by the State.
Do you envision a new relationship where we have Federal cities
responsible to the Federal Government and not hampered by the
restrictions of State constitutions or under the direction of the State
legislature?
~\`layor CAVANAGH. We in fact have had, I think, in the past 8 years
particularly this new quasi- or sort of extra-legal relationship, Federal-
city relationship, a direct relationship, as you know so well, Mr.
Congressman. And it is through that the cities are creatures of the
State.
But I think there have to be some ways found to make the State
much more relevant to the needs of people that live in the cities. There
has been this traditional rural disinclination to grapple with the
problems of the central cities and now I say that that very fact has
been transferred, in the main, to suburbia.
There is a feeling on the part of many suburban legislators repre-
senting their constituencies-and I am not going to argue with the
fact that it is an accurate reflection-that somehow they have escaped
the problems of social disorder, and intergovernmental cooperation
means, "Let's use your water and have us expand our sewage treat-
ment plants" and things like that, but your social problems keep
down there in the central city, particularly the blacks.
PAGENO="0531"
1963
That is why \\re have the white noose drawn around these central
cities and they are slowiy dying just for that reason.
Mr. ERLENBORN. I think apparently the Supreme Court's one-man,
one-vote decision was to make State legislatures, and now Congress,
responsive to the majority of the people. Apparently what you are
telling me is that the majority of the people represented in these
State legislatures are not responsive to the needs of the central cities.
Do you think that we should have a weighted vote for the central
cities so that they can have a greater voice in the State legislatures?
Do you argue with the one-man, one-vote theory?
Mayor CAVANAGH. No, I don't argue with the one-man, one-vote.
We supported it in the Supreme Court and in proposing legislation
in the Congress, in the resolutions of this Congress which would
overturn it, but what I am saying is that there are some very special
and unique problems that exist in the central city to the problems of
the extremely poor, both black and white and the elderly, that are
the problems of all people, not just the problems of the central city.
I am saying that in the main they have turned their backs upon
the central city. That is why these big cities like Detroit, Chicago,
and New York are slowly sinking further and further and more
deeply down. They are like a ship floundering at sea. They don't
even have the operational money.
The people that live outside of those cities feel no sense of obligation,
but at the same time they have no hesitation in using all the amenities
of those central cities, including their art museums and their historical
museums and libraries and symphonies and even baseball teams.
Mr. ERLENBORN. On page 3 of your statement you say what we
have now, at best, is an ad hoc approach to poverty. This system,
given the history and context of the poverty community, results in
piecemeal measures developed within fragmented Federal jurisdic-
tional framework.
Let me hasten to say that I agree with you. In the context of this,
what do you think of Chairman Perkins' idea that we start a new
Headstart program in HEW to compete with the OEO Headstart
program until HEW can prove that they can operate this kind of a
program?
Mayor CAVANAGH. I would agree with that to a greater degree than
I would the dismantling of Headstart and moving it out of OEO. I
think there has been some demonstration on the part of some of these
older line departments that had these problems for years and didn't
deal with them very successftffly.
Mr. ERLENBORN. Don't you think that is fragmenting the Federal
jurisdictional framework even more than it has been?
Mayor CAVANAGH. I think that it is, but if there is this great
enchantment on the part of some of our legislators and some members
of the national administration to dismantle the office of OEO, then
1 think that may be one possible solution to it. I don't necessarily
think that it is the right approach. I just don't share the feeling that
somehow the poverty program and the office of OEO ought to be dis-
mantled piece by piece, and take those that are visibly unpopular
first and move them off into the Departments until suddenly there is
just a shell left and it will collapse of its own weight.
]\/lr. ERLENBORN. How do you feel about the new program develop-
ing in HEW to provide legal services to the poor and another one
PAGENO="0532"
1964
proposed for HUD for legal services to the poor? Don't you think
this is just, again, fragmenting our Federal jurisdiction?
Mayor CAVANAGH. Yes, I do.
Mr. ERLENBORN. What would you think of the proposition to
transfer these programs into OEO, that already has an on-going pro-
gram?
Mayor CAVAXAGH. I would support that.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Hawkins?
Mr. HAWKINS. Thank you.
Mayor Cavanagh, could I ask you to explain again the answer that
you gave concerning the channeling of aid through the States? It was
suggested that you might wish to deal more with the regional office
rather than with State officials. Would it not really be necessary to
deal with the regional office in either case? In other words, is it a choice
in dealing with the regional office or dealing with the State officials
in the State of Michigan that the regional office would be involved
in either case, so it isn't a choice? Do you agree with that?
Mayor CAVANAGH. I agree with that.
Mr. HAWKINS. Really in stating the question in such a. way as giving
you only the choice between the State officials, on the one hand, or
the regional office was really not a correct question in the sense that
you would necessarily deal with the regional office in either case.
Mayor CAVANAGH. Yes; you would have to.
Mr. HAWKINS. Was this position of the organizations that you repre-
sent, or is this a personal one?
Mayor CAVANAGH. No; I think it can be categorically stated that
the position of both the National League of Cities and the United
States Conference of Mayors has been to look upon with some degree
of something less than enchantment or enthusiasm the funneling of
Federal funds through the States for urban areas.
I put that in a general sense because I think it has to be put that
way. There are some obvious exceptions to it probably. But most of
the legislation that this Congress has considered in the last 4 or 5
years, both National League of Cities and the U.S. Conference of
Mayors have opposed the interposition of the State as being the
conduit through which the Federal funds should funnel their way
down to the urban areas.
Mr. HAWKINS. Again, you indicated the two organizations were
disappointed that the administration saw fit to reduce the budget
request for the Office of Economic Opportunity.
It has been stated according to my understanding by the admin-
istration that actually this is a reflection of funding rather than a
reduction. Have the organizations that you represent seen any other
programs that were offered to replace those that were being reduced?
In other words, have you been assured of any increased funding for
any of the other programs or any new programs to take the place of
those that have been actually reduced?
Mayor CAVANAGH. No, and I specifically referred to in my testi-
mony the summer programs, for example, which are presently under
consideration for funding, and which many cities, including Detroit,
received planning grants. But at the same time, there have been
indications from the Federal agencies involved, both our Board of
Education and to our Committee on Human Resources Development,
PAGENO="0533"
1965
which is the poverty agency, which are components of our summer
youth opportunity program, that very substantial portions of the
Federal assistance in those areas will be reduced, one in the area
mainly of the remedial education classes that the Board of Education
sponsors during the summertime and the other in some form of summer
assistance, probably the program Operation Champ, which is basically
a recreational program in OEO, which is going to be significantly
reduced.
Mr. HAWKINS. I have one final question with respect to citizen
participation.
Much has been said in the Congress about cities demanding control
over the programs and, in effect, being interfered with by citizens or
by the so-called concept of maximum feasible participation, a concept
which we unfortunately eliminated 2 weeks ago in the Elementary and
Secondary Education Act.
Are you again speaking for the organizations and do~ you feel that
citizen participation-I think you did make the point rather clear,
but I would like to have it further clarified. Do you believe that
citizen participation is a vital factor that the so-called concept of
maximum feasible participation will work, that citizens are not in
a sense interfering with public officials or if they are, they are
doing it within their constitutional rights and that they do occupy
and can play a vital role in such programs?
Mayor CAVANAGH. I think the success or failure of those programs
depends upon how effective that citizen participation is. There is
no question, as I indicated to the chairman and the committee, that
since we are sort of groping our way across the country in relation
to this whole question of citizen participation, it is difficult to spell
out any fixed guidelines. But I think if both sides deal in good faith
with this concept of shared power, it can work and is working. I
think that is the feeling of the U.S. Conference of Mayors and the
National League of Cities. I know, of course, Mrs. Green, through
her efforts in the Green amendment, that in the main that was
supported by the U.S. Conference of Mayors and the National
League of Cities. In some cities, though, it had been working already
and hadn't really represented the kind of problem that it was in other
cities.
Mrs. GREEN (presiding). Congressman Collins?
Mr. COLLINS. Mayor, what percent of the population in Michigan
is in the city of Detroit?
Mayor CAVANAGH. It is about, I would say, 8 million people in
Michigan, roughly, and inside the city of Detroit there is about 1.7
million. In the metropolitan area of Detroit, so-called metropolitan
area, there is close to 3.5 to 4 million. So the metropolitan area of
Detroit would constitute almost 50 percent of the total population.
Mr. COLLINS. When you said you had half of the police of the
State?
Mayor CAVANAGH. Inside the city itself.
Mr. COLLINS. In other words, where you have about one-fourth of
the population, you have about one-half of the police, which means
you really do have a critical problem in Detroit?
Mayor CAVANAGH. Yes, because the density, of course, of population
is there inside the city and the density and the other social problems
are the things that contribute to the problem of crime. Therefore,
PAGENO="0534"
1966
Where you find poverty, where you find density, where you find lack
of opportunity and a variety of other things, motivation and other
reasons, you find a greater and higher degree of crime.
There is no question about it. Therefore, you need more police
officers to enforce the law.
If you were out in a nice pastoral setting in which there was no
density, no human abrasion day after day, you might not need
as many police Officers. But you do need them in the major cities.
Mr. COLLINS. It isn't necessarily poverty that brings it on. I
read that when they had riots, that the average city of average
income was just as well involved.
Mayor CAVANAGH. I think in and of itself that is not the exclusive
cause of crime, but I think also, and I know you do not, Mr. Congress-
man, suggest that poverty isn't a very, very significant factor in
creating a whole social climate which generates and breeds crime in
this country and in every country in the world. I don't think you can
separate it out.
Mr. COLLINS. Would you say that density of population causes
crime more than anything?
Mayor Cavanagh. No. I think there are so many factors that are
interrelated that cause and have caused an increase in crime in this
country and in the cities of our country. The breakdown that all of us
here talk about so frequently, which is a fact, the breakdown of respect
for authority within the family as the basic unit of our society, the
breakdown of respect for authority in other areas, but there are
also things that tend to contribute to that.
I am not necessarily justifying all of these things. I am merely
saying that poverty and lack of job opportunity and squalor and
slums and rats and terrible housing and all of the other social maladies
tend to contribute also to this breakdown of respect for authority,
which, in turn contributes to the increase in crime in all of our cities,
our obsession with the material world as we know it.
These are very subjective views that I am sure you have heard
before from other people. But, for example, the glorification and the
glamorization of both mayhem and material well-being through tele-
vision, I feel, without being prudish about it but it always strikes me
as odd that at 11:15 every evening the television stations have piously
condemned crime in the streets after devoting about 3 hours of their
programing to gore and mayhem. But they have never bothered to
confuse their profit motive with their editorializing at 11:15. But I
think it is symptomatic of what has happened in this country. This
country, for example, has been sort of caught up in violence, whole
sections of our history have been carved out of violence, the south-
western part of our country, for example, and this inordinate respect-
I won't say "respect," but inordinate degree to which guns are held
to be something sort of constitutionally right is unusual in this country
compared to every other country.
And the fact that we have difficulty with the murder rate climbing,
with the terrible public assassinations that have taken place to enact any
meaningful gun control legislation in the Congress, in the States or in
the cities-there is Detroit in which we have introduced, I have intro-
duced for the last year and a half very stringent gun control legislation
that hasn't been acted upon at all by our legislative bodies.
So I can't be critical of the Congress.
PAGENO="0535"
1967
Mr. CoLLINs. Let me ask you one thing on that. We made a check
in Texas of the inmates of the Texas prison and found that only one
out of ten had bought his gun through a normal channel, which is
listed in these gun laws. Nine out of 10 had gotten them through other
sources.
Now. What would a gun registration law achieve?
Mayor CAVANAGH. A gun registration law would give to the police,
according to the police officers, and this includes the International
Association of Chiefs of Police, I think out of 60 top police chiefs
in America, 59 or 58 of them said that much more strict gun control
registration and control was needed, because it would provide them
with tools with which they could better enforce the law.
For example, in Detroit today a 16-year-old youngster can carry
down the main street of that city a loaded shotgun or rifle without
being apprehended and being charged with any kind of a crime. But
if he carries a BB gun and he is 18, he would be subjected to all sorts of
severe penalties.
But that is the incongruity in the law. I won't get into a philosophi-
cal discussion as to what has caused this sort of awe of the so-called
right of people to bear arms, which there is no constitutional right
to do that anyway, but I have got some theories about it, as I am
sure you do, too.
I recognize the different attitudes and views in different parts of
the country. But I merely mention that as, I think, a factor in con-
tributing to this whole question of crime in America today, and that
part of our history has been caught up with this whole theory of
violence, including not just the Southwest, but major Eastern cities
not too many years ago had sections that were sort of robbers' roosts
that were off-limits to police forces.
Mrs. GREEN. Congressman Dent.
Mr. DENT. I have no questions.
Mrs. GREEN. Congresswoman Mink?
Mrs. MINK. Thank you very much.
I, too, want to join the chairman of our committee in commending
you for a very fine statement in support of the war on poverty.
I do have a few questions that relate to your statement, Mayor
Cavanagh. The first is your statement on page 2. What do you
mean by the paragraph in which you state that the OEO should be
restructured to give it a high-level planning capability?
Mayor CAVANAGH. I would suggest there that by restructuring
I would give it a degree of continuity which it has not had since
the day it was founded. OEO itself, and I think this is a rather common
agreement, from day to day almost didn't know really what its future
had and, as a result, the people that it serviced in the communities
and the communities it serviced were even in a greater degree of
doubt as to what its future might be.
Its funding was always under a continuing resolution and there
were always great meetings of citizens in every city of the country
in the spring of the year to indicate that the programs would probably
have to be terminated because the cities couldn't pick them up.
I think this is certainly one aspect of giving it that long-range
planning capability I am speaking about.
PAGENO="0536"
1968
Mrs. MINK. So your emphasis in that paragraph, then, refers to
the concept of continuity and goes back to your support of a long-term
bill as proposed by this committee, is that a correct assumption?
Mayor CAVANAGH. Yes; that is a correct assumption and also I
mentioned one other thing that probably I didn't explain as clearly
as I would have liked to in that statement. And that is the many
pieces of legislation that have been introduced in this Congress that
have yet to be acted upon which would set up a social accounting
system in this country, rather than reviewing our social programs on
the present basis of purely an economic accounting, such as the
General Accounting Office presently does in their appraisal of the
effectiveness of these programs.
For example, if I might, Mrs. Mink, indicate one thing: the Arch-
diocese of Detroit is a component agency of the city of Detroit in
operating the poverty progTam. It operates, I believe, our Headstart
program and some Labor programs. But it is called the archdiocese
and opportunity program. It has had its difficulties. There is no ques-
tion about it and if you were to go in and measure it purely, using the
general standards of the GAO, there are huge sections of it that you
would have to characterize as being a failure.
But if you applied some kind of a social accounting system to that
participation, what you would come up with would be the fact that
we were able to get one of the great institutions of that city, the arch-
diocese, finally committed to working down on a street level with the
problems of the poor.
I don't mean to say that they had been ignored in the past. That
isn't true. But that is the sort of intangible that at the present time
you can't measure if you are going to continue the poverty program
in the system under which we operate today.
Mis. MINI~. You stated also in your opening paragraphs that the
Conference of Mayors and the National League of Cities is strongly
opposed to earmarking of funds for single-purpose projects. Would you
explain exactly what you mean by this statement?
Mayor CAVANAGH. It addresses itself again, I suppose, to block
grant theory when traditionally both the Conference of Mayors and
the National League of Cities have felt that the categorical aid
programs a.s a whole, hut particularly within the OEO, where there
was some very stringent earmarking of funds, really removed the
flexibility which I think the Congress intended the Community Action
agencies would have, and, therefore the local community didn't have
the degree of flexibility to apply the dollars where they were the most
greatly needed.
If for example there was m ore money in one program and it went
in that way, moving it out of that area and into another area made
it extremely difficult when you had the kind of stringent earmarking
that we have had. But that is the basic objection to the whole cate-
gorical aid system.
Mrs. MINK. You stated also that established Federal administrative
channels make it extremely difficult for local CAP agencies to function
and often results in piecemeal measures.
I wonder if you could identify the administrative channels that you
refer to in this statement.
Mayor CAVANAGH. The regional office, I think, in some instances
of OEO, but also the fact that we have a variety of offices in Labor
PAGENO="0537"
1969
in dealing with the state counterpart, the Employment Security
Commission, HEW, probably a couple of other agencies now, that
tend to make it extremely difficult, I think, when you have fragmented
manpower programs, for example, some operating through OEO, and
others operating through the Department of Labor.
When you get particularly a successful manpower program going,
such as the adult youth employment project that we had going for
a long period of time, which really started under the Juvenile Delin-
quency Control Act, which Mrs. Green sponsored, and then subse-
quently became part of the poverty program, that was dismantled
and moved into the National Alliance of Businessmen's program when
the administration decided to put its emphasis there, but what it did
was create on a local level sort of a chaotic condition in relation to
these programs, because they were rather similar programs being
funded and operated by different agencies and making it extremely
difficult for the local government to coordinate them all.
Mrs. GREEN. Congressman Ayres?
Congressman Clay?
Mr. CLAY. Thank you.
I have one question, Mayor Cavanagh. You speak on page 2 of the
change in the structure and quality of citizen participation to a stage
where they now have a valid and decisive vote. Isn't it true that
citizens generally in the poverty areas aren't of that opinion, that they
have a decisive vote and they are clamoring for more decentralized
sort of program where the people involved themselves eventually will
have the power of veto over all programs that affect their neighborhood
and their lives?
What is the position of the Council of Mayors in regard to this type
of feeling?
Mayor CAvANAGH. Mr. Simmonds was reminding me that OEO
maybe at times led to the creation of some of the concerns of lack of
citizen participation on the part of citizens themselves. There is a
degree of suspicion, there is no question about it, on part of many,
many people as to the validity of the citizen participation.
There is a feeling on the part of many that city government or any
kind of governmental agency is incapable really of playing it straight,
so to speak, and of this sharing a degree of power. But I think over a
period of time that suspicion in the main can and has been alleviated
and overoome.
There are always people that for their own interests or for other
reasons, which some might think legitimate, will claim that citizen
participation is a fraud and a hoax. When it comes right down to it,
though, we think we really don't need to reach this point where there
has been the absolute confrontation, but I have made it clear that the
responsibility for the eventual operation of poverty programs inside
the city of Detroit are vested in the mayor of the city.
I was willing to share that power and the policy decisions as recom-
mended by the policy advisory committee were ones that rarely I have
overturned. I think in one instance I have, but I did make clear that
responsibility was vested in me as an elected official to disperse the
taxpayers' funds from all over the community.
I would agree with you that there is certainly the degree of sus-
picion that still lingers and I think it was probably because of maxi-
mum feasible participation. No one was quite sure what it meant when
PAGENO="0538"
1970
it started including the officials of OEO, and it was interpreted badly
by some regional offices.
It was interpreted much differently by the regional office in San
Francisco, Mrs. Green, particularly than it was by some of the other
regional offices, which gave rise to some of the clarifying amendments
which Congress did adopt.
Mr. CLAY. One other question: Two of the main problems of people
who live in poverty is that they have not been able to produce indig-
enous leadership and they have not been able to organize effectively
to articulate their problems and do something in terms of resolving
them.
In the opinion of the Conference of Mayors, what has been their
experiences in terms of whether or not community action programs
have been able to develop this type of leadership which could articu-
late the problems and help to help resolve them?
Mayor CAVANAGH. I think it is a developing process. I would
have to say that most of the mayors in America feel that it has
developed and they are quite able to articulate their grievances and
seek their redress, as the case may be, and in some communities
maybe better than others, because initially I think on the part of
some governmental officials on a local level there was resistance to
this idea, because maybe of a lack of understanding. But I don't
find at least in the city of Detroit any lack of ability on the part of
the citizen representatives to articulate their needs and make known
their suggestions and ideas.
As a matter of fact, in some instances it exceeds the bounds, as I
said earlier, of comfort.
Mr. CLAY. I think what I am trying to say is that this is sort of a
new process, since the development of OEO and the community
action programs, that prior to that time you didn't have the type
of articulate leadership coming from these neighborhoods.
Mayor CAVANAGH. That is correct. OEO has done this.
Chairman PERKINS (presiding). Mr. Dellenback?
Mr. DELLENBACK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I don't believe I have any questions at this moment.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Bifi Ayres?
Mr. Dent?
Mr. DENT. Mr. Chairman, I didn't have a question a while ago,
but I would like to discuss what I think is a very serious problem;
that is, the question of transferring Job Corps training to the Depart-
ment of Labor and putting it under the Manpower Division.
As you know, Mr. Mayor, we had a manpower training program
under the Department of Labor long before we created the OEO.
`When we created the OEO, this committee at least thought that there
was a very serious need for something special in job training other
than the formal manpower training as it is carried out under the
i~'Ianpower Training Act.
Now the proposition seems to be to put the so-called Job Corps
special training under Manpower. Unless we change Manpower, in
my humble opinion, it will not meet the need. What is your impression
of this particular situation?
Mayor CAVANAGH. I share your view, Mr. Congressman. I cer-
tainly agree with the Congress initially in those very specialized kinds
PAGENO="0539"
1971
of manpower programs that they belonged in the agency to which
you assign them, the Office of Economic Opportunity.
I don't hold to the belief that the movement of all manpower pro-
grams, particularly some of these which are highly specialized man-
power programs, back into some other department, the Department
of Labor, for example, is going to enhance those programs at all. As
a matter of fact, I don't think that is going to be the case.
I think what the Congress recognized was the fact that the man-
power programs of all the programs had done relatively little in the
urban areas and there was a need to structure some special manpower
programs and keep them in OEO when you enacted the legislation
originally.
I don't see anything that has changed that. As a matter of fact, I
think there is some evidence to the contrary.
Mr. DENT. As you know, being an elected official, there is something
peculiar about American politics demanding that every time we
change administrations we have to remake the whole world.
You and I know what will happen. They will move the program
over to the Labor Department under Manpower Training and then
bring in a whole shift of new people and go right along the pattern
lines we set up under the OEO Job Training. Otherwise, they will be
completely out of the reach of the kind of people that were trained
under the OEO Job Corps.
I have seen some of these kids and they got jobs after going through
the Job Training Corps under the OEO. They would never have had
jobs in a million years if they had to depend on a formal job training
prograni that we set up undei the Labor Department.
I for one am sorry unless they do as I think they will do, just set it
up as another bureau under Manpower Training and just so they get
the change of employees. That is all it will be. It will be different
titles. They will have different titles and different political affiliations,
but I think that the cost will be the same or more under the Depart-
ment of Labor than it was under OEO.
The gentlelady from Oregon and I disagree on that somewhat. But
I have considered this very seriously and I can tell you that is exactly
the way I feel it will work.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Ford?
Mr. FORD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I am sorry to be delayed. I have four committees going at the same
time this morning. I am really pleased to see the mayor of the great
city of Detroit here. Although Detroit is not in my district, I consider
myself an honorary citizen, since I was born and raised there.
I\~Ir. Chairman, the mayor and the organization that he represents
arranged for a number of us last fall to make a walking tour through a
part of the city that many people saw on television a couple of years
ago. Many people in the world still believe that it is a heap of rubble and
ashes as a result of the unfortunate circumstances of the summer of
1967.
We, a group of Congressmen who accepted this invitation, saw the
people of Detroit and the official family of the mayor of Detroit
working together in a fantastic program, in a neighborhood that
I knew as a little boy. It is going to have a greater potential, I think,
when they are through with it than it has ever had in its history.
PAGENO="0540"
1972
Many of the programs that they are carrying out were being carried
out as a result of the very fine success, the critics and the carpers
notwithstanding, that the city of Detroit has had in utilizing the
Economic Opportunity Act to build both the people and the corn-
mumty.
Mr. Mayor, I would like to direct a question to you that perhaps
someone else has already asked you. I see the representative of the
Conference of State Governors here in the room. I asked him the
other day for a more detailed explanation of their flat recommenda-
tion that all poverty programs should be subject to a Governor's
veto and thereby subj ect to someone at the State level designing and
tailoring them.
I believe, their suggestion was that the veto should be a line-item
veto, so that they could pick and choose any part of a program
devised by a city and thus tell the city yes, you can go ahead or, no,
you can't go ahead, depending on what the item was.
How does your group and how do you, as a mayor of a principal
city, feel about having that much responsibility shifted to the State
capital?
Mayor CAVANAGH. Of course, they in effect can now to a limited
degree, as you know, Mr. Congressman. We categorically have opposed
the veto on the part of the Governor of the State in the original legis-
lation. We feel very strongly about it, evenwhen the legislation was
subsequently amended.
It is interesting that in Michigan to my recollection there have
been no programs vetoed, but the two which the then-Governor sug-
gested that he was going to veto, which api)eared to him to be pro-
grams of questionable value, turned out because of considerable pres-
sure he did not veto, but they turned out to be two of the best pro-
grams by any objective standard that the poverty program has had.
One was a summer cultural enrichment program and the other was
a Mother's Day camp program for the summer of 1966, I believe, or
1965. But my point was that on paper the Governor very sincerely
felt that these programs just didn't merit consideration under the
poverty program.
Yet when we were able to mobilize sufficient resources to cause
them to back off, these programs turned out to be the best. My point
is that to move that degree of responsibility to that level and to make
the kinds of evaluations which have to be made is just absolutely a
mistake and both the U.S. Conference of Mayors and the National
League of Cities strongly oppose it.
Mr. FORD. One of the aspects of the program that many members are
very concerned about is the maximum feasible participation by the
people for whom this program is designed. Would the interposition of
additional authority at the State level be likely, in the city of Detroit,
to create a gTeater feeling of confidence in the people in the neighbor-
hoods than they now have toward these programs?
Mayor CAVANAGH. I suppose it would be to whom you were address-
ing your question and since you are asking it of me, I would have to
say that I would not see where the additions necessarily are the iiiter-
position of State governments would add to the degree of confidence
which citizens have in the program.
I don't necessarily feel that way and I don't think that the Governor
of our State would necessarily argue that it would either. I am not
PAGENO="0541"
1973
going to suggest what he would say, but I don't think that merely
interposing the State that anyone could reasonably suggest that it
would add confidence to the program.
As a matter of fact, it might have just the opposite effect because
most of the people that live in the city of Detroit as live in other cities
have to some degree some disenchantment with the ability of the State
to relate to the needs of the people in that city.
Mr. FORD. I would like to ask unanimous consent that the letter
from the Governor of Michigan introduced to us by the spokesman of
the Governors the other day be entered in the record immediately
following the testimony of the mayor of the city of Detroit, I would like
to note at this time that this letter, out of all of the Governor's letters
is the only one that specifically dealt with the question of spinning off
the programs in the poverty program and specifically says that on the
basis of his experience he believes that we should not be spinning off
Headstart, Job Corps, and the other programs as proposed by the
present administration.
Chairman PERKINS. Without objection, it is so ordered.
(The letter referred to follows:)
STATE OF MICHIGAN,
Lansing, Mich., March 31, 1969.
Mr. CHARLES A. BYRLEY,
Director, National Governors' Conference,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR MR. BYRLEY: Thank you for your memorandum of March 13, 1969 and
for giving me the opportunity of expressing my views concerning the Office of
Economic Opportunity
The Economic Opportunity Act of 1964 was designed and structured to explore
methods of combating the multiple forces that lead to poverty. The passing of
this Act acknowledged, for the first time, the major causes of modern poverty:
limited access to jobs, education and housing. Poverty in the United States today
is not merely the lack of material goods but the lack of opportunity to secure
the benefits essential to a decent life.
The Office of Economic Opportunity, in its five years of existence, has met
both success and failure. While it is apparent that deficiencies have existed in
the OEO, the achievements of this agency have been numerous and justify the
continuation and strengthening of the Office of Economic Opportunity. We do
not approve at this time of the dismemberment of OEO or the spinning off of
programs such as Head Start, Upward Bound, Job Corps or VISTA.
Deficiencies of the Office of Economic Opportunity are to be found in the area
of program planning. It is essential that OEO-sponsored programs be coordinated
with overall social planning efforts of the State which are based on a thorough
determination of needs and priorities of local communities. We feel that OEO
should improve and strengthen its communications with local and State agencies
in an effort to avoid refunding programs which may not meet the needs of the
poor. The poor must not be denied the vital services promised them; verbal ab-
stractions, which bear little or no relationship to immediate needs, are not suffi-
cient. Proper identification of the needs of local communities and the ability to
plan and implement those programs which will help solve the local problems is of
paramount importance.
The role of the States must he broadened to encompass coordination of all
Federally-funded programs providing assistance to low-income people. Each
State must be given the opportunity to coordinate such programs within the frame-
work of that State's social planning efforts, both to avoid duplication of services
and to insure the most efficient spending of limited funds.
Consistent with increased responsibility for program planning within its own
borders, a State must also be given a broader role in the funding process. Dis-
tribution of Federal anti-poverty funds in concert with State Economic Oppor-
tunity Offices could provide this broader role if based upon the following provisos:
(1) The existence of a comprehensive State social development plan, and (2)
observance of Federal guidelines that protect the interests and participation of
the poor.
PAGENO="0542"
1974
It is my recommendation that further consideration should be given to the
strengthening of the limited veto power of the Governor of each State and ex-
tending the veto to Title lB programs.
Greater responsibility for the success of anti-poverty programs would encourage
States to take a more active role in enlisting the interest and support of the private
sector to help combat poverty.
Concurrent with the strengthening of the Governor's veto power, increased
responsibility should be given the State Economic Opportunity Offices in the area
of program review and evaluation. They must be accorded the chance to evaluate
all anti-poverty programs in operation within their State to determine whether
needs are being met by the programs and to insure that no duplication of services
exist. At the very least, the Governor and the SEOO should be given the oppor-
tunity to review and evaluate programs before a decision is reached at the Federal
level to refund or not to refund specific projects.
State OEOs should be allocated sufficient funds to permit the hiring of qualified
training personnel, thus enabling them to assume leadership in this area as an
essential part of their technical assistance function. OEO should not be bound to
use SEOOs for training, but the latter should be given prime consideration and
the burden of proof should be on OEO if they are not used.
It is my recommendation that prior to any decision to restructure the Office of
Economic Opportunity, it is necessary to define more clearly the respective roles
to be played by the Federal government, State government and the local com-
munities in the anti-poverty program. Clearly-delegated areas of responsibility
for program planning, review, evaluation and funding must be achieved before
the various establishments can work together to solve the major problem of our
nation. The National Governors' Conference and the National SEOO Directors'
Conference should be provided with the opportunity to present its views regarding
the proper restructuring of the Office of Economic Opportunity.
To make the best use of limited funds available for the war on poverty, it is
necessary to have the best planning possible. The establishment of the Office of
Economic Opportunity as a national social planning agency, whose purpose is to
coordinate all human resource programs on a Federal level, is vital. OEO should
increase its efforts to seek the help of other agencies who can provide assistance
in overall planning aspects for the development of American society and should.
be legally empowered to secure this help. Regional OEO offices, State technicaL
assistance agencies and local community action agencies should become the
satellite planning bodies of the Federal OEO.
It is my recommendation that the Office of Economic Opportunity review its
goals and that it once again focus attention on the all-important aspect of planning,
in the human resources field for the nation as a whole. An overall perspective must.
not be allowed to become distorted by the daily problems of administration and
concerns of local communities. A broader view must be taken before the war on
poverty can be considered as approaching victory.
The Office of Economic Opportunity must prepare itself to meet the challenge
of adverse public opinion. It must willingly acknowledge failure in many areas,
but it must point with pride to the accomplishments of its brief period of existence.
Foremost among these accomplishments are the development of lines of corn-
munication between the citizens of the United States and their government and
the success of programs which have employed new, innovative ways of dealing'
with age-old problems.
The Office of Economic Opportunity must not be permitted to fall by the way-
side. Renewed application to the goals and purposes of the Economic Opportunity
Act of 1964, proper restructuring of the OEO, and clearer definition of the roles~
to be played by the Federal and State governments and the local communities,.
will go a long way in assuring final victory in the war against poverty.
Sincerely,
WILLIAM G. MILLIKEN,
Govern or
Chairman PERKINS. Mrs. Green?
Mrs. GREEN. Mayor Cavanagh, you responded just now that the
National Council of Mayors took action in opposition to the possible*
veto power of a Governor over a program. Is that correct?
Mayor CAVANAGH. Yes.
Mrs. GREEN. Did you take any action in opposition to the veto.
power of the regional representative and he indeed has absolute veto
power?
PAGENO="0543"
1975
Mayor CAVANAGH. We have battled that long and hard at this
level, at the top departmental level, through the U.S. Conference of
Mayors, both staff and officers. But I must say that if they have
absolute veto power in Chicago, it must be on most occasions relatively
easy for me. I don't say it because of me necessarily, just to pick up
the phone and overcome that veto.
Mrs. GREEN. I wish Congressman Pucinski were here. It is probably
the most kind thing that has been said about Chicago for ages.
[Laughter.]
Perhaps, you know, this does explain part of it-the political
allies one has. I find that some Members of Congress do not want
any veto power anywhere and they can join with their political
allies in their own cities to make a direct plea to the Director of the
War on Poverty and bypass everybody.
Mayor CAVANAGH. I think, Mrs. Green, that it was true probably
to a greater degree than it is today, that some people in the Federal
Establishment, particularly the regional level, looked upon, for ex-
ample, mayors and city government as being as somehow part of the
enemy, that they were out in the field to, you know, pose as an adver-
sary to.
They saw in the mayors and what they considered the "old system"
that system which had withheld the benefits of our society from the
poor and as a result, that attitude carried over into practically their
entire relationship.
But I don't think that was true in every regional office. I know it
was not, as a matter of fact, in Chicago, but I also know of some other
examples where it was true.
Mrs. GREEN. I suspect some of the people in Chicago itself would
not agree with your analysis of the regional office that is located in
Chicago, but if I may go on to another point, Mr. Mayor-
Mayor CAVANAGH. I don't want it to appear that regional office in
Chicago I am completely inept, too. I am not. I think they are com-
pletely out of touch in reality in many instances. I have said so across
the table to them.
Mrs. GREEN. It does surprise me that the National Council of
Mayors would come out in opposition to any veto power to be exer-
cised by the Governor, but would approve of veto power by some
person appointed in a regional office.
Mayor CAVANAGH. We don't do that.
Mrs. GREEN. By your action, I take it you have.
Mayor CAVANAGH. No.
Mrs. GREEN. I would also say that in recent years Congress has
encouraged OEO personnel "to fight" City Hall, which in my judgment
is inappropriate.
But I would also add that it seems to me we almost have a pecking
order, don't we, the Governors want to have more voice in it, they
don't quite trust the federal regional office, and the mayors on the
next step down don't want the Governors to have the power because
they don't trust them; and the poor don't want the mayors to have
the power because they don't trust them; and the "outs" in the poor
don't want the poor to have the authority because they don't trust
them.
It seems we have the old pecking order.
PAGENO="0544"
1976
Mayor CAVANAGH. I think it is an apt characterization. The oniy
addendum I would add to that characterization that you just made
is the fact that the mayors in city government is the one local mecha-
nism that is making some contribution to the poverty war besides the
Federal Government.
Mrs. GREEN. You should have been here on the floor 2 years ago
when this was discussed. Many colleagues and OEO argued that
the mayors were the most insensitive, stupid, corrupt group of people
that God ever made.
Mayor CAvANAGH. It is always interesting that the State officials
sometimes feel this way, but the State officials never put up any-
thing. They are long on the rhetoric, but very short on the delivery.
Mrs. GREEN. My colleagues have raised some questions. I want to
clear the record, Mr. Chairman. I defended the mayors. I did not
support the allegations that were made on the floor.
Mr. DENT. Sometime, Mrs. Green, you ought to hear what they
have to say about Congressmen.
Mrs. GREEN. I have heard. Let me go to the maximum feasible
participation.
What do you mean by maximum feasible participation and what is
the maximum participation in Detroit on the part of the poor? How
many turn out for an election and how do you select the representa-
tives of tl1e poor in Detroit?
Mayor CAVANAGH. They are selected by means of general or pop-
ular election in the various target areas. Each target area is broken up.
Mrs. GREEN. I understand that, but within my 5-minute time limit
will you outline election or selection procedures?
Mayor CAVANAGH. They do it through using our city clerk's office
in a very extensive educational program and making available all the
schools and public places within that area in which they can vote and
trying to make much more accessible voting places and ability to
vote.
Mrs. GREEN. After you have made all of those efforts to get the
maximum participation, how many participate?
Mayor CAvANAGH. I would think of those that are eligible, if you
had 3 or 4 percent would be high. That would be about average.
That is a little high, too, for most cities.
Mrs. GREEN. Three or 4 percent of those who are eligible is the
maximum participation that is feasible in Detroit?
Mayor CAVANAGH. No, those are the ones that turn out. What
might be feasible might be greater than that. But practice has indi-
cated that those that participate has been 3 or 4 percent.
Mrs. GREEN. Iii other cities you have had 1 percent or one-half of
a percent?
Mayor CAVANAGH. Yes.
Mrs. GREEN. Oftentinies hasn't it, in fact, turned out that it is
the struggle of the outs versus the ins, and really this whole business
of maximum feasible participation is blown out of all proportions?
Mayor CAVANAGH. It depends on what you mean by blown out of
all proportions. I am not trying to hedge. I think it has given a voice
and an articulation to many people. There are certain problems that
have been blown out of proportion.
The ins do struggle with the outs. The poverty program people
are struggling with the model cities program people all across the
PAGENO="0545"
1977
country. But nonetheless I think the mere fact there is a forum and
an ability to articulate on the part of even those 3 or 4 percent that
choose to do so has been a very helpful thing.
I think the day is long past, and I know it has changed even in
the 8 years that I have been mayor, Mrs. Green, where I could in a
kindly benevolent way go out into a neighborhood and say, "This is
where we are going to build the park for you." The people say, "Just
a moment, we don't want it over there, we want it over a few blocks"
for this reason.
Then they say, "We don't care if you put a park here or not, unless
you put it where it is needed." That seems like a reasonable thing,
that they have some voice in the planning of their own destiny.
I admit there have been some extreme examples and some of this
has been blown out of proportion. But the idea of citizen participation
is a very ingrained part of whatever program we are dealing with
these days and we can't escape it.
Mrs. GREEN. In response to a question of Congressman Hawkins,
he asked isn't it true that you would like to have both State and
regional intervention or participation? Your answer was "Yes."
Mayor CAVANAGH. Yes, because any Federal program I assume is
going to be administered at least in part.
Mrs. GREEN. If this Congress this year in revising the poverty
program, and I suspect there will be a few major revisions in it, if
Congress said that there was to be a State plan, and there wasn't to be
any regional bureaucracy, the plan could work this way, too; couldn't
it?
There are programs that are administered by the State and they
don't have to go to a regional office for approval.
Mayor CAVANAGH. Yes, it would work that way, but I would
beseech you not to support any program. I know in your wisdom in
the long run you will not.
Mrs. GREEN. Your words are very eloquent. You have not per-
suaded me.
Mayor CAVANAGH. I will guarantee you it will sound adept now
in these programs in these cities if you are going to insist upon State
plants.
Mrs. GREEN. They are pretty sick now.
Mayor CAVANAGH. They are; but they are struggling in spite of
themselves and in spite of State government. I defy anyone to prove
otherwise.
Mr. HAwKINs. I was curious if the gentlelady from Oregon is
laying the foundation to sponsor another amendment which would
place control of the program in the State and eliminate the regional
office. Would she care to respond?
Mrs. GREEN. I am laying the foundation for several amendments.
Mr. HAWKINS. I would like to anticipate them to see what role
the poor are going to play in some of these amendments.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Dellenback?
Mr. DELLENBACK. Thank you.
I would like to ask a question along this line. Do you feel that the
Federal Government should be dealing directly with the cities and the
States should not be involved in this in any way, manner or form?
Mayor CAVANAGH. I think if the State desires to allocate a reason-
able amount of its resources to these programs, they should play a role.
27-754-69-pt. 3-35
PAGENO="0546"
1978
But if they propose not to, which they don't in most instances, I don't
know of any that do, maybe some might, then I don't believe that there
should be any interposition of the State.
We don't need any moral guidance from the State. Let them put
some money up. Let them use some of the resources which they have
and then I would be delighted to sit around and share with them the
control of the program.
But until they do that, the homilies that we get from the State are
really rather w~orrisome
Mr. DELLENBACK. Then you don't find any value or advantage in
coordination within a State, insofar as Detroit is concerned. Its
interrelationship with the other cities of Michigan are something you
can either handle directly or ignore?
Mayor CAVANAGH. Sometimes in my intensity, I tend to over-
simplify. I wouldn't want this committee to have that impression.
Certainly there is a role for coordination and that is exercised to some
degree in all of these States as it is in Michigan today.
There are various State agencies that are involved in coordinating
with us some of these programs, but to strengthen the position of the
State without insisting upon an allocation of their resources at the
expense of the city, I am opposed to.
Mrs. GREEN. Would my colleague yield?
Mr. DELLENBACK. Yes.
Mrs. GREEN. I am curious about the logic here. You don't want the
States to participate unless they put something in. Education is a
key part of the poverty program. The Federal Government only puts
8 percent in as a total education budget for elementary and secondary
education in many States.
I don't know about Michigan. In many States the State part is as
high as 50 percent and yet you are opposed to the State participating
in it and you are perfectly willing to have the Federal Government
have absolute control in the veto.
Mayor CAVANAGH. I am not willing to have the Federal Govern-
ment have absolute control.
Mrs. GREEN. They do. They can veto absolutely anything at the
regional office or at the Washington, D.C., office and you are opposed
to the State doing it even though they put a lot more money in than the
Federal Government does?
Mayor CAVANAGH. Where does that money come from in the
State of Michigan? For example, it comes right out of the city of
Detroit and we get very little back in relation to the amount of money
which invests even in our educational system. The educational formula
in every State for State distribution of funds, I believe, is totally in-
equitable, because it is distributed across the board on the same
formula notwithstanding the needs of the students and, therefore,
most of the money flows out of the industrialized cities, yet it doesn't
wind its way back there.
Mrs. GREEN. Careful! You will lose the support of the chairman
who comes from rural Kentucky.
Mayor CAVANAGH. Just on that point.
Chairman PERKINS. I want to compliment the witness. He has made
an excellent witness and I think he has great knowledge. I can see why
he gets elected. He knows how to get Democratic votes. [Laughter.]
PAGENO="0547"
1979
Mr. DELLENBACK. But when this intra-Democratic complimentary
remark is completed, may we return to a few questions.
Mayor CAVANAGH. I could use the chairman back in Detroit a
great deal.
Mr. DELLENBACK. May I complete my questions?
Chairman PERKINS. Yes.
Mr. DELLENBACK. I just want to be sure, Mayor, that you are not
suggesting that the States not be involved at all. You are not correlat-
ing involvement in a coordination or working intra-Michigan idea
that everything ought to be just Detroit and Washington working
together and ignoring the rest of the State?
Mayor CAVANAGH. No, there is obviously a very legitimate and valid
role. There are State programs, one of which Mrs. Green has identified.
There are labor programs and others in which the State has the most
basic governmental responsibility by virtue of both the Federal and
State legislation.
They do have a role to play to coordinate. I would think though
that the Congress ought to consider the, you know, insisting that the
States share in the local cost of these programs rather than imposing
the burden solely upon the cities.
Mr. DELLENBACK. What we are really talking about is the degree
and the manner of the State involvement rather than whether or not
the State should be involved. Am I correct?
Mayor CAVANAGH. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. DELLENBACK. We are all aware of the fact that the General
Accounting Office has for a period of time been in the process of
making a study in depth of Detroit and certain OEO programs and
the like. Has a copy of the GAO report been made available to you
as the mayor and to your people in the city?
Mayor CAVANAGH. No, it has not, Mr. Congressman. I have seen
a preliminary draft of the GAO report, but even the second final
draft or whatever stage it is at the present time I have not seen. That
was several months ago.
I saw an initial draft from the representatives of the GAO conferring
with our staff, representative of the poverty program, and with me. I
invited them into my office and I did have an extremely good and, I
think, constructive meeting. That was some time ago, 2~ or 3 months
ago, and we were only working from a first draft at that point.
Mr. DELLENBACK. Would there be any comment while we are iii
the process of this committee having benefit of your testimony that
you would care on that point at the present time? Would you care to
say anything about what has preliminarily been called to your atten-
tion that will be included in the GAO report?
Mayor CAVANAGH. As I mentioned during the course of my tes-
timony, and I think in response to another question, but I would wish
to emphasize this again, Mr. Congressman. And this is that to use
strictly the traditional accounting procedures which the General
Accounting Office of necessity almost has to use, in the evaluation of
this kind of a social program, is completely erroneous.
That is why there is a great, great need in this country to develop a
system of social accounting, to be able to measure the social successes
or failures of a program like this. If you measure it merely in dollars
and cents, your answers sometimes are almost inescapable and in some
instances they are doomed to be failures, because this is a research
program in the main.
PAGENO="0548"
1980
We are sort of groping on how to approach these problems. You
measure them against the dollars invested and you just aren't going
to come out with the kind of valid result that you must.
That is why a mere GAO review of the effectiveness of Headstart,
Job Corps or anything else, I don't think, provides the kinds of
answers that the Congress really needs to test the validity of these
kinds of programs.
Mr. DELLENBACK. We hope that after the complete report of GAO
is out, that we perhaps may have the benefit of some additional
sl)ecifiC comment on the points, because GAO from what I under-
stand has spent a good deal of time and effort and had a good deal of
manpower involved in going ahead with this study in depth.
I think we ought to after we have had a chance to digest it, and you
have had a chance, because you should see it in final form before we
hold you to reaction to it. We ought to get the benefit of that.
Mayor CAVANAGH. I think that the GAO has already indicated
the very inherent limitations in their kind of evaluation of these
kinds of prog'rams. I would hope the Members of Congress, when
they review that report, will recall even the admonition of the GAO
itself.
Mr. DELLENBACK. I have one final question. If 1 gather from
your testimony correctly, you feel th at one of the very significant
things that comes out of OEO is this power to innovate and, as you
referred to it, as risk taking. You feel this is an important thing?
Mayor CAVANAGH. Yes.
Mr. DELLEIS BACK. So you feel that in any continuation of OEO
there should be heavy emphasis on continuing this authority and
the power to innovate in this agency. Am I correct in this assumption?
Mayor CAVANAGH. Yes, because of very substantial portions of
the initial legislation, or I should say initial thought behind th.e
legislation, was that it was hopefully going to innovate with new
techniques, programs or approaches to the problems with which they
were dealing.
Mr. DELLENBACK. After you innovated and have taken these
risks and come up with these programs, do you feel that all of the
programs should perpetually be retained in OEO?
Mayor CAVANAGH. I don't feel that all the programs necessarily
should be perpetually retained, period. There might be some that
experience had dictated be amended or even changed to some degree.
But 1 had said earlier, Congressman, that I feel that the place for
these `programs that were effective and were working were within
the framework of OEO.
Mr. DELLENPACK. Perpetually?
Mayor CAVANAGH. Yes. Certainly, I think the history of Labor
and HEW in some of these areas has been pathetic and to move them
back into those traditional departments-I don't care whether the
Republicans or Democrats are in control of the national administra-
tion, I said it then too, and I feel the same way today-is a very bad
mistake, because they didn't grapple with the programs initially
significantly and I don't think anything has changed.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Meeds?
Mr. MEEDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
PAGENO="0549"
1981
First, let me apologize for being late and being unable to hear the
distinguished gentleman's testimony. I would yield my time to Mr..
Ford.
Mr. FORD. Thank you, Mr. Meeds.
Actually, Mr. Mayor, what we have been dancing around with
this morning on this whole veto power is not new to the committee.
When President Johnson sent down his proposals, I believe about
3 years ago, he proposed at that time that the Governors of the
States would have an absolute veto power, meaning the power to
block a program notwithstanding disagreement between the local
government and the State over the wisdom of any particular program
or the allocation of funds.
This committee at that time spent a great deal of time examining
this proposal by the administration and we rejected it by an over-
wrhe~ming majority of the committee. At that time my recollection was
that, if it wouldn't be hard to believe, tha.t since it was a Johnson~
proposal, most of my Republican colleagues joined, with me in voting
against it.
We may have voted against it for different reasons, but we were
together in our agreement that it would not at that time be a good
plan to interpose this kind of absolute veto power between the cities
and the Community Action Agencies and the source of the funds.
I haven't been able to determine what has changed, but what really
is before this committee is a tendency to say that at the state level,
that the priorities as between specific programs in the several cities
could be determined in a better way.
Realizing that it is very unlikely that this Congress will give
enough money to even maintain the programs already in existence,
every indication is that programs will- have to cut back because it will
be less effective money.
What happens if in the State of Michigan at the State level they
were to determine that you are putting too much emphasis in your
Community Action on things like Headstart and said that instead,
you were supposed to switch to Job Corps or something of the kind,
how would you handle that at the local level in terms of cutting the
program back?
Mayor CAVANAGH. As Mr. Simmonds has pointed out, of course,
we work with the State Technical Office now that is set up to relate to
our effort and one of their representatives serves as a member, if I
an-i not mistaken, of my own Policy Advisory Committee.
But what we would do now, of course, if there was an impasse that
can be overruled by the agency here-but I think you posed an
interesting dilemma, that if you fixed into law, and this was the way
the original was, that the absolute veto power on the part of state
officials you were substituting the judgment of the State officials
for the local officials, which I don't say is always necessarily worse.
As a matter of fact, in many instances it might well be better. But
at least the theory is, and I think the practice is, too, that the local
official is closer to those citizen representatives who, in turn, are
supposed to be able to feed into the program better than anyone
else what may be the needs of the community.
So I think that is the most eloquent thing I can say or attempt to
say as a reason for opposing the kind of absolute veto that Governors
originally had.
PAGENO="0550"
1982
If I am not mistaken, I don't believe that the President submitted
that to the Congress. I think it was suggested as an amendment and
subsequently, of course, was added as an amendment. But the Sena.te
and the House had to concur.
But I think as the legislation came down from the White House, I
don't believe that it was the original administration position that
Governors have veto power. But things were changing so quickly
then, I am really not sure. Maybe your recollection is better than
mine on that.
Mr. FORD. You used the example of the present method of dis-
tributing school funds in the States. Again using the State of Michigan
as an example where the Governor recently made a decision indicating
that somehow lie was favoring people living in the urban part of the
State. I am talking about the $100 million that the people voted to
spend through a bond issue for recreation. When the 1iresen~ Governor
announced the wa.y in which he was going to apportion the expenditure
of that money between the urban areas of the State and the rural
areas of the State, what was the reaction and what has happened to the
Governor as a result of his attempt to direct it toward the cities?
Mayor CAVANAGH. There has been, of course, as you know, Mr.
Congressman, considerable objection, to put it mildly, to the rather,
I would think, noncontroversial formula which the Governor has
suggested, distributing the money 60-40-60 percent of it into the
urban areas of the State, 40 percent into the other areas. But there
has been a tremendous hue and cry that the State has broken faith
with the voters that adopted that $100 million bond issue for recreation
purposes and you, I think, point out implicitly in your question that
that is somewhat symptomatic of one of the whole problems that
confront us in that and probably other States as well.
Mr. Ford. Even though one-third of the-or more than one-half
of the population of the whole State of Michigan lives in the south-
eastern three counties, a friendly Governor, friendly in the sense
that he attempts to devise a formula that will put the funds into
the urban areas, finds that the political structure of our State makes
that nearly impossible, doesn't it?
Mayor CAVANAGH. Yes, that is true.
Chairman PERKINS. Are there any further questions, Mr. Quie?
Mr. Steiger?
Mr. Dellenback?
Mr. Meeds?
Mrs. Green?
Let me thank you again, Mayor Cavanagh. In my judgment, you
well represented the National Council of Mayors today.
~~Iayor CAVANAGH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the
committee, and particularly Mrs. Green, too, for her very penetrating
and l)erCePtive analysis of this whole question. I say that most sin-
cerely, because she has been a very good and great friend of the U.S.
Conference of Mayors and with considerable legislation.
Chairman PERKINS. We will have you back again sometime.
Our next witness is Mrs. Dorothy Burns, Tongue Paint Job Corps
Center, Astoria, Oreg.
We are delighted to welcome you here, Mrs. Burns. I notice you have
a prepared statement. Without objection, the prepared statement will
be inserted in the record and you can proceed in any manner that you
prefer.
PAGENO="0551"
1983
STATEMENT OP DOROTHY BURNS, DIRECTOR, TONGUE POINT JOB
CORPS CENTER, ASTORIA, OREG.
Mrs. BURNS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the com-
mittee.
I don't have what I would call a separate prepared statement, but
I have expressed my concerns. All of us who are connected with the
Job Corps centers naturally have been very concerned since the
announcement that was made initially by President Nixon about
his very grave concerns about the future of Job Corps.
All such announcements obviously have a tremendous impact on
those of us who are working in these programs. I would, first, like to
say that any remarks I make, I think, you should recognize that they
have to do only with the women's centers. I really have not had very
much contact at all with the men's centers.
My experience now has been for 2 years at Tongue Point. You
might be interested in knowing that our contractor is the University
of Oregon, which by the way has been contractor for that center since
the beginning.
Back in December, I wrote a letter which went to Congressman
Dellenback and others, including Mrs. Green, in which I expressed
very grave concern about the future of Job Corps. I would like to
have it and another letter that I will review briefly with you submitted
as my statement.
Chairman PERKINS. Without objection, it is so ordered.
(The letters referred to follow:)
UNIVERSITY OF OREGON,
Astoria, Oreg., February 27, 1969.
Hon. GEORGE P. SHULTZ,
Secretary of Labor,
Washington, D.C.
M~ DEAR MR. SHULTZ: As Center Director of one of the large women's Job
Corps Centers, I am writing you to express some ideas and recommendations
that I feel would improve the overall efficiency of women's Job Corps Centers.
First, a great need exists to establish more definitive criteria for enrollees,
admission to Job Corps. Job Corps essentially should serve those youth who most
are in need of residential placement as opposed to non-residential programs.
In general terms, these young people should be those who are overwhelmed by
adverse environmental factors such as very poor, depressing, and damaging
homes, alienated peer groups who tend to reinforce unacceptable social behavior,
poor or non-existent vocational and educational opportunities in the local com-
munities, and so on. In general, then, Job Corps should serve many ghetto youth
who need to be physically lifted out of their environment in order to survive
any kind of training opportunity and who at the same time desperately need
24-hour professional attention for correcting inappropriate attitudes and be-
havior patterns, as well as for training in vocational and academic skills. Job
Corps also should serve rural youth in poverty because of the non-existence of
any other such opportunity that is accessible to them. Criteria for selection of
such youth should be established and coordinated with other training possibi-
ities.
Job Corps Centers should be located in defined regional areas, and placement
of youth into Centers more nearly should be based upon home residence within
the defined region. There are many reasons for this recommendation. First is the
reduction of travel costs of trainees across the country, a sizeable savings in total
moneys. Second is the strong possibility of increasing retention rates because the
personal problems of homesickness and so on surely would be reduced if the young
people were somewhat closer to their homes and could visit on occasion. Third,
there exists the possibility of planning training programs to serve the employment
needs of a particular, defined region so that placement efforts could be organized
upon the basis of a factual, true employment outlook within the region.
PAGENO="0552"
1984
I would also recommend that Centers, within a defined region, more actively
be involved in recruitment and placement. Center personnel, better than outsiders,
best can describe their own Centers, training programs, facilities, and special
offerings. Centers more directly should be involved in placement because their
major responsibility is job training for eventual placement, and for this prime
purpose they should be held accountable and fully responsible, assuming they
also participate directly in recruitment efforts. If the Centers are structured to
receive youngsters from a local region, placement generally could be effected by
means of on-the-job training contacts and U.S. Employment Offices within the
region. The direct involvement of Centers in placement also would improve Center
training programs because Centers would receive continual feedback from em~)lOy-
ers about the job success or failure of former trainees. As a result, Center training
programs could constantly be evaluated and changed to meet the demands of
prospective employers.
I shall list briefly a few other suggestions:
1. Where feasible, Centers be made into coeducational institutions in order to
reduce costs in recreation trips and to provide frequent heterosexual contact.
2. Centers work closely with local communities in accepting day students who
deserve Job-Corps-training opportunities.
3. Centers more and more serve as training facilities with the cooperation of
colleges and universities in preparing teachers, recreation specialists, social
workers, and counselors for disadvantaged youth.
4. Where practicable, Cent.ers integrate general education for the more able
trainees with community college offerings.
5. The age of admission of trainees be raised to seventeen so that the young
person is approaching age eighteen upon completion of a short-term program.
Youth under age eighteen simply cannot be placed into jobs in most states no
matter how well they are trained. Special Job-Corps-type programs for ages 14-16
should be established, and the training programs should include heavy emphasis
upon orientation to the world of work, work experience, and provision for a solid
foundation in practical basic education. Upon successful completion of his special
training, these youth could be transferred to a regular Job Corps Center.
I am enclosing a copy of a letter that presents a justification of the need for
residential programs. This letter was sent to several Oregon Congressmen. As this
letter points out clearly, a tremendous need for residential programs exists among
youngsters from deprived backgrounds.
I hope that some of these suggestions may prove useful to you and your col-
leagues as plans are made for absorbing Job Corps within the Department of
Labor.
Sincerely yours,
DOROTHY BURNS, D. Ed.,
Center Director.
UNIVERSITY OF OREGON,
Astoria, Oreg., December 16, 1968.
Hon. JOHN DELLENBACK,
House of Representatives,
Washington, D.C.
Mv DEAR MR. DELLENBACK: Because of my deep concern about the future of
Job Corps, I have decided to write of my concern, to point out the need for a
residential training program for disadvantaged youth, and to suggest some recom-
mendations for the future. My hope is that the content of my ideas can he ex-
pressed directly to President-Elect Nixon and his advisors for domestic affairs.
I am the direct.or of one of the large women's urban centers and have been
directly or indirectly associated professionally with these kinds of youngsters
for many years. My whole background of experience has been in Southern Cali-
fornia and Oregon high schools and colleges in teaching, counseling, and adminis-
tration. Thus, I feel that my expression is one of a seasoned educator who can
speak from several perspectives and from an objective point of view because
my personal Professional life need not be tied to Job Corps and its continuation.
After observing and working closely with our staff and the young women in
this Center for the second year, I am more convinced than ever of the need for
residential programs for impoverished youth in order to effect successful training
in basic education and vocational-technical training. Why?
First, I have watched firsthand the creeping failure of public education to deal
with the very serious problems of these youth. Heavy school dropouts commence
physically at age sixteen. Mentally the dropping-out process starts, of course,
PAGENO="0553"
1985
long before this age and for a number of reasons. However, the overwhelming
reason for dropouts is the schools' total inability in a five- to six-hour day to deal
effectively with the depressive and adverse effects of poor environmental influ-
ences. The pressures of delinquent or near-delinquent group behaviors and the
general alienating effects of deprivation brought on by poverty, accompanied by
large families, broken homes, and impoverished neighborhoods, create over-
powering effects upon youngsters and their decisions about school attendance and
learning. Obviously, if some continue to stay in school, they have little moral
support nor motivation toward school achievement in their own environment.
It must be concluded that if changes in behavior and attitudes are to be effected,
the environment must be changed. This change must be dramatic such as place-
ment in a residential setting away from their homes whereby comprehensive,
professional attention can be given on a twenty-four hour basis in a climate that
makes change possible.
As an example, we have many girls who come to us from areas with good school
systems, but these girls did not attend school beyond the ninth or tenth grade.
They simply could not cope with the problems of their environment. Consequently,
an assignment to a residential program with a total emphasis upon improving
the self-image, stimulating the desire for learning and creating a recognition for
the need of training becomes essential if these youngsters are to benefit from any
kind of basic education and vocational training.
We find over and over again that our "whole person" concept is significant.
This concept implies that all the formal training, residential, and counseling
efforts emphasize positive attitudes and social and emotional maturity as well as
technical-skill learning. As all research tells us, these factors are closely inter-
twined with successful employment. For example, no matter how well a girl may
be trained in technical nursing skills, she becomes a truly successful nurse only
if she has developed good habits of personal hygiene, an attractive appearance,
tolerance of criticism, good relationships with her colleagues, promptness in
meeting obligations or in reporting to work, and attitudes toward her work that
are appropriate in a hospital setting. Clearly we find it is in these attitudinal and
hehaviorial areas that our most serious problems lie, and we have learned that
these matters are best taught through informal groups made up of staff and peers
in the residences with constant reinforcement day and night. Too often in a short
day-school program these matters receive little emphasis simply because time
does not permit, and yet these factors make the difference between mere skill
training and true employability.
It also should be pointed out that our supportive Job Corps environment, which
is a microcosm of the larger environment, makes it possible for racial barriers
to be penetrated as girls learn firsthand that skin color truly is skin deep and that
although cultural differences exist from one race to another, the human spirit is
very much the same. When we witness the tears of sorrow between a Negro and a
white girl when one must depart the Center, we feel we know whereof we speak
about racial relationships.
Then there are dire needs in medical and dental services. These youngsters
usually have never seen a dentist nor a physician and need extensive care. Mental
health problems, too, are acute: the rate of neuroses and psychoses is much higher
than in comparable, middle-class adolescent populations. I feel these essential
services can best be offered in a residential setting; otherwise, there is no control
outside of the school over whether youngsters receive such attention or not.
The rural youngster in poverty also requires a residential program. Our Center
population has tended to run about fifty per-cent rural or small-town girls as
opposed to metropolitan girls, and we receive girls from twenty-five states.
Technical-vocational training is expensive, so if rural youngsters are to benefit
in centralized training schools, they have to live in a residential setting. They can-
not, for example, be bussed hundreds of miles daily to attend one central training
facility.
The deep South presents another problem all its own. I personally would
question the advisability ever of locating training facilities in the deep South
because of the large number of black youth in these programs. To me, it makes
much better sense to train these youth in the North, counsel them to relocate,
and then assist them with obtaining Northern employment.
I am aware of some of the serious problems and mistakes connected with Job
Corps, and I am certain that much improvement can continue both in quality of
programs and in cost reduction. However, I believe there is no adequate alterna-
tive to a good residential program for many youngsters, although some could
PAGENO="0554"
1986
benefit if they had similar opportunities available in their communities. Never-
theless, the Job Corps experience has taught thousands of people many things and
has offered rich knowledge to those of us who have worked with these youngsters,
who do in fact represent one of the severest of our social ills in this country, but
also our greatest hope for future change. Some of these learnings too have occurred
among Job Corps contractors, representing many large corporations, YWCA's,
colleges and universities, and a Negro sorority. I suspect that the marriage of
government and industry that has occurred in Job Corps over the last four-year
period is one of the first such alliances negotiated to tackle a serious national social
ill. These Job Corps learnings now are beginning to attract colleges and universi-
ties nationwide as they recognize centers as appropriate training facilities for their
students in counseling, teaching, recreation, and research. At our Center we now
are receiving college students for training from almost all the colleges in the State
of Oregon. Furthermoe, these students receive appropriate college credit for their
experience at the Center. And, I might add that these glimerings of knowledge
about how to work well with these youth take considerable time. This knowledge
does not spring up full-blown overnight.
Needless to say, the present centers represent millions of dollars in investments
and facilities and in trained staffs. Several centers, as does ours, occupy unused
federal installations that otherwise would be sitting idle and making no valuable
contribution to the national welfare. Staff recruitment and training, too, obviously
represent tremendous investments in time and money, especially among profes-
sional staffs. We find that few physicians, nurses, counselors, nor teachers have
been trained to work effectively with these youth. As a result, the centers by neces-
sity must develop good internal training programs.
It is a point of interest that center opertaing costs have been driven down
dramatically within the last two years. Last month we spent $414 per girl. This
figure represents a teaching ratio of one to fifteen, all medical and dental costs,
heavy maintenance costs on our 800 federal acres, recretion, on-the-job training
all over the Northwest, food, clothing, and center transportation. The typical
graduate in our Center completes a program in seven to nine months so that the
total Center operating cost per graduate approximates $3,000 to $3,600. These
operating costs do not include entry and exit transportation costs of corpswornen,
corpswomen allowances, and administrative costs of the Office of Economic
Opportunity.
As you may know, the American Vocational Association is pressing for national
recognition of the need for residential vocational schools. In the October, 1968
issue of the American Vocational Journal, this need is justified in the lead article.
Interestingly the costs reported in this article correspond closely to our Center
operating costs.
In conclusion, I would like to suggest the following thoughts as recommenda-
tions for future planning. A tremendous need exists f or coordination and evalua-
tion of existing programs at the federal level, buttressed by research findings.
Industry and business rapidly are becoming governmental partners in tackling
the dire problems of the hard-core unemployed, hut they, along with agencies
such as public schools and colleges and universities, need to become more inti-
mately involved in a comprehensive national effort. This effort should be ap-
proached only after some in-depth evaluation and research on effectiveness have
occurred. The national effort should be distinguished by diversity of programs
that are carefully planned to avoid duplication of effort.
Among other needs at the moment is the deteirnination of which youth must
have a residential program as opposed to neighborhood nonresidential training
centers. Small-town and rural youth obviously in many instances must attend
residential centers simply because of geographical distances. As suggested earlier,
I suspect many deep-South Negro youth are best served in Northern training
centers because of their poor treatment and dismal opportunities at home. Then
there are many socially alienated ghetto youth who for a number of reasons must
be lifted physically from their immediate surroundings and placed in a. new, re-
freshing residential setting if they are to benefit at all from whatever training is
offered them. Urban youth who have attained adequate social maturity and a
desire to better themselves undoubtedly could be helped at home in a skills train-
ing center or in a~ good industrial training program. However, the determination of
the kinds of programs that best fit these differing needs should be based upon in-
depth studies, followed by a master plan that encompasses comprehensive diver-
sity and overall effectiveness. The costs should he kept at a minimum with retention
of program effectiveness as judged by employability, job placement, and job
retention of the hard core who participate in differeat programs.
PAGENO="0555"
1987
I hope my thoughts will be useful as this whole problem is evaluated by the new
administration. If I can be of any future assistance to you, please do not hesitate
to call upon me.
Sincerely,
DOROTHY BURNS, D.Ed.,
Center Director.
Mrs. BURNS. I am the director of one of the large women's urban
centers and have been directly or indirectly associated professionally
with these kinds of youngsters for a number of years. My whole back-
ground of experience has been in Southern California and for short
periods in high schools in Oregon, and community colleges in assign-
ments such as teaching, counselling, and administration.
Thus, I feel that my expression is one of a seasoned educator who
can speak from a number of perspectives and surely from an objec-
tive point of view, because my personal and professional life is not
necessarily tied to Job Corps and its continuation. After observation
and working closely with our staff and the young women at our center
for the second year, I am more convinced than ever before of the
need for residential programs for impoverished youth in order to bring
about successful training in basic education and in vocational technical
education.
Why? First, I have had the direct experience of watching the creep-
ing failure of public education to deal with the very serious problems
of these youth.
Heavy school dropouts, as you probably know, commence physically
at the age of 16, although mentally the dropping out process starts
long before this age and for a number of reasons. However, the over-
whelming reason for dropouts is the schools' total inability in the
short span of a school day to deal effectively with the depressive and
the adverse effects of poor environments.
The pressures of delinquent and near-delinquent group behaviors
and the general alienating effects of deprivation brought on by poverty
often accompanied in homes by large families, broken family struc-
tures, and impoverished neighborhoods create overpowering effects
upon youngsters and their decisions about going to school and about
learning.
Obviously, if some of these youngsters are to stay in school, they
have little moral support and little motivation toward school achieve-
ment in their own environment. It must be concluded that if changes
in behavior and attitude are to be effected, the environment has to be
changed.
This change must be dramatic such as the placement in a residen-
tial setting away from these homes and preferably in a kind of climate
that is comprehensive and professional. Otherwise, change in these
youngsters will not occur.
As an example, we have many girls who come to us from areas with
good school systems. I could name any number personally in Cali-
fornia. But these same girls did not go to school beyond the ninth or
perhaps the 10th grade. They found that they simply couldn't cope
with the problems that they had at home.
Consequently, an assignment to a residential program, where there
is the total emphasis upon improving these youngsters' self-image,
stinmlating their desire for learning, and creating a recognition for
the need of any kind of program becomes essential if they are to
benefit from such programs as Job Corps.
PAGENO="0556"
1988
At our center, we find over and over again that our whole person
concept is significant. This concept implies that all of the formal
training, the residential efforts, and the counseling efforts emphasize
positive attitudes and social and emotional maturity as well as skilled
training.
As all research tells us, these factors are closely intertwined with
successful employment. Let me give you an example.
No matter how well a girl may be trained in technical nursing skills,
she becomes a truly successful nurse only if she has developed good
habits of personal hygiene and attractive appearance, tolerance of
criticism, good relationships with her peers and colleagues, prompt-
ness in meeting obligations or in going to work, and attitudes toward
her work that are appropriate in a hospital setting.
Clearly we find over and over again that these attitudinal and
behavioral areas really are our most serious problem. We have learned
that these matters are best taught through informal groups made up
of staff and peers within the residential setting. All too often in a
short day school program these matters receive little emphasis, not
because the schools may not be interested, but because really time
simply doesn't permit it.
Yet these are the very factors that make the difference between
the kind of skill training program and what most of us would call
true employability.
It also should be pointed out that your supportive Job Corps
environment which really, in fact, is a microcosm of a larger environ-
ment makes it possible for racial barriers to be penetrated as girls
begin to learn first hand that the color of the skin is indeed only skin
deep, even though we all recognize that there may be differences in
culture.
Some of the rest I will summarize briefly. I am sure you have heard a
great deal of testimony on the dire needs of supportive services of all
kinds. I am also positive that every center has recognized that there
are hundreds of youngsters who have never been to a dentist or to a
physician.
I know we find this over and over again. I would like to point out
that the mental health problems among these youngsters are at a
much higher rate than my experience would tell me in a
normal adolescent population.
I can't see any way at all to meet the needs of rural youngsters
unless they are placed in residential programs. There isn't any way
to bus kids hundreds of miles back and forth every day. It just can't
be done.
Second, we cannot afford the cost of duplication of expensive voca-
tional programs many, many times. This would seem to me almost
obvious that they have to be put in some kind of residential program.
I go ahead to say that I am aware, as I am, of some of the serious
problems and possibly mistakes that have been connected with Job
Corps. I would like to comment, I think any new program has to face
these risks.
And I am also certain that a great deal of improvement can continue
to be made both in quality and in cost reduction. But I really also
would like to add that I don't think there is any adequate alternative
to a good residential program for many youngsters. However, I would
readily admit that I am sure we all have some who possibly could
PAGENO="0557"
1989
benefit from a nonresidential program in cities or in other areas if they
had such opportunities.
The Job Corps experience has taught thousands of people many
things and has offered rich knowledge to those of us who have worked
with these youngsters, who do, in fact, represent one of the very
severest, it seems to me, of all of our social ills, and yet our greatest
hope for changing some of the problems that we see all over this
country.
Some of the learnings that I have referred to, too, have occurred
among the contractors of all of these centers, representing some of the
blue chip corporations, the YWCA, colleges and universities, and a
Negro sorority.
As a matter of fact, I think one indication of some of the learnings
that are occurring has occurred at our center, which is that at this
point, we receive students both seniors and graduate students in train-
ing, in counseling, teaching, recreation, community relations, and re-
search from colleges all over the State of Oregon.
Right now we have about 21 or 22 students. Many of these students
have parallel programs in the community as well as at our center.
The other thing is that I think this committee knows well about
the amount of money that has been invested in these programs as
represented by facilities. I sometimes wonder if you haven't visited a
lot of the centers and watched what goes on, you may or may not
know about the time, the energy, and what, in turn, then represents
money that we have invested in training our staff.
It has been my experience that we seldom find people who are ade-
quately trained to work with these youngsters. Consequently, we
really have to do a good internal staff training program.
In reference to costs, I comment that although this was written in
December, the same figures are approximately true, that at our center
our costs have gone down quite dramatically since the beginning of
the center. The figure I quote in here is an operating cost of girls,
based most probably on November's figure, which was $414 per girl.
I have some place in my belongings the most recent figures. But
they have run from about $410 to about $420 a month per girl. I
should remind you, of course, that these dollars represent many,
many things, including all of the educational programs, a 4- to 6-week
placement of the girl off-center on a work-experience program, recrea-
tion, her food, her clothing, medical, and dental costs and so on.
I would like also to call to your attention that the American Voca-
tional Association is pressing for national recognition for residential,
vocational school~. You might refer at your leisure to an issue in
October 1968 in the American Vocational Journal, because an article
on this problem is the lead article in that particular magazine.
* You should also refer to the costs, the costs as quoted in there com-
pare very favorably with the costs that I have told you about.
In conclusion, on this first letter, I concluded the letter with making
recommendations. The first was a tremendous need for coordination
and evaluation of existing programs at the Federal level, buttressed
by research. We never have any money to do research unless we can
get university grants, which we do.
But I am talking about indepth kinds of studies. I also comment that
I think the total national effort in all of these areas should probably be
PAGENO="0558"
1990
distinguished by diversity programs, because I think the needs do
vary. They should be carefully planned in order not to duplicate.
Among the most serious determinations that I would suspect that
the Department of Labor has not made as yet, is the determination
of why youth do, in fact, and how many are there who need a residen-
tial program, as opposed to a nonresidential program.
I have already referred to rural youth. It seems to me that is
obvious. You can't duplicate costs unless you have residential
programs.
But there are no criteria to my knowledge that establish which
city kid should be in Job Corps. And I would think this is a crucial
item. There are youngsters who are mature enough and motivated
enough to go to nonresidential progTams, why not?
But we need studies and we need to have information about such
matters.
The second letter that I would like to refer to is one that I sent after
the announcement of the appointments of various staff members by
President Nixon and this one after the announcement about the pro-
posed change of Job Corps to the Department of Labor. I sent this
directly to Secretary of Labor George Shultz because I really didn't
know who would be working with the Job Corps.
These are simply recommendations that I thought would enhance
the present structure of Job Corps. In a minute I will comment on the
proposed closures of centers.
The first paragraph somewhat duplicates what I have said getting
back to the serious need, I think, for definitive criteria for enrollment
of youngsters into Job Corps. In other words, we should serve, it
seems to me, those youngsters who most need our services.
I go ahead in this same letter to say that Job Corps centers should
be located in defined regional areas, and placement of youth into the
centers more nearly should be based upon home residence within the
defined area.
I feel there are several reasons for this. First, is the obvious reduc-
tion of money, of commuters at great distances. I think this in itself
would save quite a bit of money. Second, I do believe that there is a
strong possibility of increasing retention rates because of the serious
problems of homesickness and so on when youngsters are so far from
home.
Also, there exists the possibility of planning, training programs
within these regions, to serve the employment needs for those partic-
ular areas so that placement efforts could be organized upon the basis
of a factual, a true employment outlook within that region.
I would also recommend that centers within a defined region more
actively be involved in the total cycle of our effort from the com-
mencement of the recruitment to placement, not to replace the
effort, but to be more involved in it.
Center personnel perhaps better than those who have not visited
the center could best describe the center, the training, the facility
and special options. We have had excellent cooperation and support
from WICS. They have done a beautiful job. But I think the WICS
women would probably agree with me that if they had more direct
contact with the centers, they could be more valuable in their counsel-
ing of the girls who are placed there.
PAGENO="0559"
1991
I feel also that centers more directly should be involved in the
placement because after all, their major responsibility is job training
for placement. And for this prime purpose, they should be held
accountable and responsible, assuming that they have something to
do with coordinating the total effort.
If the centers are structured to receive youngsters from a local
region, placement generally then could be brought about through on-
the-job training contacts and through working with the U.S. Employ-
ment Service offices.
I think also direct involvement in placement has a very healthy,
evaluated effect on the centers in that constantly, then, centers would
receive feedbacks about the success or failure of the enrollees on those
programs.
I go ahead to list very briefly a few more suggestions, many of which,
by the way-I know we do at our center and I know at a number of
centers-but I think there should be more attention to this. Frankly,
I think we would have a better center if it were coeducational, in
order to cut down other costs-for example, long recreation trips
and that sort of thing, because obviously youngsters cannot be iso-
lated and I think for other reasons we should have the heterosexual
contact of these kids.
The centers should receive day students locally. I have felt very
badly that we didn't have permission to let local students come to our
facilities. Centers more and more serve as training facilities for training
college students. I think this is absolutely essential. And also, take the
leadership which I feel we have done in the State of Oregon in develop-
ing a lot of materials that we have shared with public schools, with
colleges. We are now very busy preparing training films to work with
the public schools. In fact, we are hoping our money will permit us to
conduct seminars where we will invite public school people and ask
them to par1~icipate with us in training teachers.
Wherever it is practical, I think centers should combine forces with
local community colleges, sharing facilities, sharing of minds. We have
many people with similar problems. Also, we have been lucky in the
fact that the community college, where we could work it out, has
accepted many of our youngsters for general education.
I would recommend, by the way, for what I would term the typical
Job Corps center that the age be changed of the students. We need to
change the age or we need to change the program. I am not sure which.
Maybe we should do both.
I don't think it makes sense to get young girls, train them for short-
term programs and send them home and they can't get a job until they
are 18. That doesn't make economic and social sense to do that.
It would be much better if the girls were 17. Let them complete a
program. When they leave, they are 18 and can get employment. I
don't think there are very many places where youngsters at age 17
can get any kind of stable employment.
If we have large numbers of younger youngsters, I think they should
be in a separate kind of program.
In conclusion, just a few comments about the proposed closures and
the establishment of the skill centers as announced by the Department
of Labor.
PAGENO="0560"
1992
Naturally, I am personally very distressed about the announced
closures, because this announcement has had a devastating effect upon
the morale of the girls at our center and upon the staff at our center.
And I am sure the same thing must be true in other centers.
As you know, our effectiveness in a program is heavily dependent
upon our ability to recruit and to retain competent people and certainly
upon the esprit de corps of enrollees. At the moment, my fear is that
we may lose our good academic people this summer, because of the
uncertainty of our future. These are people in whom we have invested
a great deal of money and time and training so that they can be
effective teachers, supervisors, and counselors.
I think that all of these people need to be made to feel that they
have some stability in their employment. Otherwise, I am positive
they will not stay with Job Corps, not just our center.
I really don't have a basic quarrel with some of the proposed
establishments of skill centers. But I do feel that at least in the
women's program for which I can speak directly, we really need both
kinds of facilities, our present residential centers and the proposed
near- and inner-city centers.
As far as I know, there has not been any firm determination of total
national need for residential placement of dropouts. But by any
reasonably defined criteria, whether these are set for serving rural
youth, or alienated ghetto youth who should be in a residential
program, I am sure the need would be hundreds of thousands of
youngsters. I suspect that the rural dropouts alone in this country,
those who obviously must have a residential program, would perhaps
approach the half million mark.
We still, by a dual effort, present centers and new ones, would not
be reaching thousands of these youngsters who so sorely need our
attention.
In the announced center closings, I cannot help being very concerned
about the tremendous loss of the services of the staffs that are located
in these centers. I know from personal experience how very valuable
these centers are. I know from personal experience how very valuable
these people are and whether it is recognized or not, they represent
one of the biggest assets in this total program, and I think the rarest
commodity to find.
Few people we find every day of our lives have the background of
experience and training for working with these youngsters. As I have
pointed out, we have to train them ourselves.
To me, it would make much better sense to implement the kind
of improvements that I have suggested in the existing centers and
very slowly move into skill centers, not with the idea, though, of
closing present centers. In addition, I might add that these proposed
skill centers, if the experience of Job Corps is indicative, will not be
operationally effective for a long period of time. And initially they will
most probably prove much more expensive than the estimates will
show.
In any new venture, and I personally have had experience in estab-
lishing a new high school, going into a brand new college, it takes time
to establish programs, to recruit good people, to train them, to coordi-
nate efforts internally, work out all kinds of relationships, work out
placement contacts, and so on.
PAGENO="0561"
1993
I would say normally it takes a good 2 years for any kind of institu-
tion to do all of these things and to arrive at even a modicum of
efficiency; as you know all too well, in Job Corps all of these issues that
I am raising are intensified because of the need of building supportive
community relations sometimes in a very hostile environment.
Among other things, if the new centers are not planned, among
other things, to open during the months that are most appropriate
for recruiting teachers and counselors, good people, the ones who are
trained simply aren't available. Good academic staff do not break
contracts midyear.
I am also concerned about the mass movement of present enrollees
in the closing centers. Undoubtedly this will cause high dropout rates
arid their total general disenchantment with the treatment that they
don't feel is fair.
I am also concerned with the possible inability of the present
centers that are not to be closed to make room for all of these
youngsters.
Thank you.
Mrs. GREEN (presiding). Thank you very much, Dr. Burns. May
I welcome you to this committee and may I also state for the record
that from everything I can find out, you have done an amazingly good
job at Tongue Point. You came into an impossible situation. From the
reports, it is much improved over what it was a few years ago.
Let me examine some of the basic philosophy on which the Job
Corps is predicated. Do you have now at Tongue Point girls who come
from the East or the Southeast?
Mrs. BURNS. Yes, we do, Madam Chairman.
Mrs. GREEN. What number, do you know, what percentage?
Mrs. BURNS. I don't have statistics with me, but if you group all
of the Deep South States together, it is about one-third.
Mrs. GREEN. So we have girls at Tongue Point who come from
Georgia and Tennessee, et cetera?
Mrs. BURNS. That is correct.
Mrs. GREEN. Do any come from the New England States, north-
eastern part of the country?
Mrs. BURNS. No. Perhaps, Madam Chairman, I could phrase my
comments, I think, to explain how we get the girls and the approxi-
mate proportions.
The first call on the placement-
Mrs. GREEN. Could I interrupt? I only have 5 minutes. I think
I know the way that you get them. But it is about one-third?
Mrs. BURNS. Yes, approximately.
Mrs. GREEN. That come from the Southeast?
Mrs. BURNS. Yes.
Mrs. GREEN. I would call the attention of my colleagues to the
fact that this is in spite of an amendment that was adopted 2 years
ago which was designed to prevent that from happening. I agree with
your statement that this is a needless expenditure of funds to transport
them all across the country.
In terms of recruitment, do you have anything at all to do with the
recruitment of the girls?
Mrs. BURNS. Not really, because the distances, of course, would
prevent this.
27-754-69-pt. 3-36
PAGENO="0562"
1994
Mrs. GREEN. Even in Oregon, do you have anything at all to do
with the recruitment?
Mrs. BURNS. We have contracts with the various WICS women.
Mrs. GREEN. But the program is not set up to do this?
Mrs. BURNS. No.
Mrs. GREEN. Do you have anything to do with the placement fo
the girls?
Mrs. BURNS. I would like to comment on that, because all of us,
as you know, are evaluated on placement. We should be. We have
done breakdowns of data to show some of the problems that I was
commenting on.
We have to keep remembering, by the way, that we are dealing
with young women. We have 25 to 30 States represented at our cen-
ter with young girls, even though we counsel heavily toward relocation,
mainly so we can assure the girls of placement. I am not sure this is
ethical, really, when you are breaking into the social ties of families,
but to get to my point., we have data to show that, for example, when
we place the girls, some of whom would be from Oregon or the State
of Washington or northern California, some of them relocated, we
have a placement effort from those who stay only just a little while
of about 50 percent up to 90 percent, depending on whether they
graduate or not.
If we depend on placement as it occurs and the youngster is return-
ing home, the placement records run about 50 to 60 percent on
everybody, somewhere in that neighborhood.
Mrs. GREEN. You don't have anything to do with placement?
Mrs. BURNS. Not really other than the ones we locate.
Mrs. GREEN. Don't the statistics also show that about 94 percent
of the Job Corps enrollees in boys and girls centers return to the area
from which they came, that is, to their original home?
Mrs. BURNS. Yes.
Mrs. GREEN. Does it make really much sense to have this kind of
a program, that is, to recruit them from Georgia to go to Oregon, when
we know that 94 percent are going back there to live or wherever their
home is in the country? Wouldn't it make more sense to have a center
that would be somewhere close to where the individual lives and the
kind of a program that would have continuity from the recruitment
through the training to the placement, so that the girls or boys would
have the feeling that the people in the center really cared about them
after they left?
Mrs. BURNS. This, in essence, Mrs. Green, is what I have proposed.
I think it would tighten the whole process.
Mrs. GREEN. You referred in your statement to on-the-job train-
ing. We know that Astoria is a very small provincial town. Where
do you send the girls for on-the-job training?
Mrs. BURNS. Our girls are sent from 4 to 6 weeks in many cities
in the States of Washington and Oregon. We have them in Seattle.
Mrs. GREEN. Do you have some in northern California, too?
Mrs. BURNS. I don't believe we do; no.
Mrs. GREEN. But all over Oregon and as far north as Seattle?
Mrs. BURNS. Yes.
Mrs. GREEN. Again, in terms of programs that would be helpful
for girls, why wouldn't it make more sense to have a residential center
close to the cities where there would be the possibility of on-the-job
PAGENO="0563"
1995
training that could be coordinated very, very closely with the program
at the center itself?
Mrs. BURNS. I am not opposed to that. I do think some of the
centers, of course-
I think there are other problems, depending on whether the centers
are right in the cities or outside the cities. My personal preference, and
I think it would make sense, would be to be within commuting distance
of a large metropolitan area.
I would not like a center within a ghetto area, because you have
increased while the youngsters are there, problems which some of
them haven't thought of.
Mrs. GREEN. You made reference to the fact that you were in
favor of allowing day students to be admitted.
Mrs. BURNS. ~1es.
Mrs. GREEN. Of the girls, 700 at Tongue Point, would you estimate
the number or percentage who would benefit equally by a day care
program that was heavily strengthened with on-the-job training and
guidance and counselling? What is the percentage who indeed do not
really require a change of residence?
Mrs. BURNS. That is a little hard to do. From my experience
I would say it would be somewhere in the neighborhood of possibly
15 percent.
Mrs. GREEN. Then again if we had a program in which we had small
residential centers, we could have the very diversity which you
have requested, which you ask for in your statement and which also
appeals to me. It would seem to me that we could take care of a
larger number of girls so that we could give some of them the change
in residential environment which I fully agree they must have, but
so that we could also provide for others a day program. They would
return to their homes and our money would go further.
~\`Irs. BURNS. I quite agree with that. The only addition I would like
to make is that even so, Mrs. Green, we aren't really reaching very
many total youngsters.
Mrs. GREEN. I couldn't agree with you more. I agreed with Mayor
Cavanagh and you, both, about the priorities in this country and the
lack of funds.
Mrs. BURNS. I am sure you have probably better statistics than I,
but I would suspect if we read different books, we would come up
with anywhere from 1 to 2 million youngsters who are dropouts.
Mrs. GREEN. We have about 750,000 a year and the present Job
Corp only trains 35,000, so we are really not talking about the best
of all worlds.
We could make a better program by giving the ones that require the
residence the residence training, the other ones the day care program.
You and I both know that there are people in the world-this is a
man's world-who at various times have proposed that, if we are short
of places in colleges that women be the ones to be eliminated from the
colleges. After all, they get married and there is no sense in making
this kind of an investment in a woman's education.
I thought we had buried that theory. I must say that I was sur-
prised yesterday to hear an otherwise very intelligent gentleman
and a man of good judgment seriously make the recommendation
to this committee that it was not as worthwhile to train the girls
in the Job Corps centers as it is the boys. After all the training
PAGENO="0564"
1996
and the dollar investment in them, the girls had the terrible judg-
ment to go out and get married.
I would think that the same number of the boys married, too.
It seems logical.
But he seriously suggested that since we didn't have enough money,
the girls' centers should be cut back. What is your reaction to that?
Mrs. BURNS. The first reaction, who was this guy? [Laughter.]
No, this to me makes no sense at all. I wouldn't want to even tolerate
such an idea. It is grossly unfair. If we are concerned about our society,
we can't pay too much attention to whether we are educating young
men or young women, because after all, there is marriage and there is
the problem of family, education of children. Sometimes I think that
if daddy could get himself a good job and mother really is well-edu-
cated, we certainly are producing much better children.
They are receiving good attention and the kind of care they need at
home. That is if we are thinking about improving social things.
Mrs. GREEN. I trust that the gentleman who testified yesterday was
speaking just for himself, because otherwise I would think there would
be a massive movement in this country to oppose any changes in the
Job Corps if the design was to cut down places for the number of
women.
Mr. BURNS. Naturally, I feel, Mrs. Green, the women should be
50-50 with the men on the programs.
Mrs. GREEN. I am glad to hear you say that. I am not really sur-
prised. Congressman Dellenback?
Mr. DELLENBACK. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
I join in welcoming Dr. Burns. While Dr. Burns comes from the
district represented by our colleague, Mr. Wyatt, who regrets that
other committee work kept him from being here to introduce her, we
welcome her on behalf of Mr. Wyatt and on behalf of those of us who
serve on the committee.
I would say just a word along the same lines as the chairman just
a few minutes ago when she commended Dr. Burns for a fine job done
in a very difficult situation. While, as I say, this is not a center which
is in my district and I have not an intimate knowledge of it, I have
heard exceptionally fine reports about your work, Dr. Burns, and we
commend you personally for what you have done there.
I think that the testimony that you gave was very helpful and I
found in time after time and point after point, you were saying the
things that meshed very closely with the type of analysis that Secre-
tary Shultz has come up with.
You talked in terms of emphasizing greater selectivity in the enroll-
ment of the Job Corps. You would look for criteria instead of just
enlisting people. I am sure that nobody is going out and walking down
the streets and signing up people for the Job Corps and yet at the
same time, we find that everybody does not need residential service.
I think this is implicit in what you have had to say. Certainly this
is a sound basic point.
You have talked about regionalizing the Job Corps centers. I think
this is a point that has been made by Secretary Shultz and I think
that point again is well made. You have touched on a series of innova-
tive suggestions in this making coeducational a.nd making day students
admittable to the centers, some of which have not been brought out
before this committee before. I think these are interesting suggestions
PAGENO="0565"
1997
to which we ought to devote some thinking and which the adminis-
tration ought to be thinking very carefully about.
You make the point, and I would like to emphasize this-if I have
heard you correctly-that you feel we need both the present residen-
tial-type center and urban or nonresidential centers. Am I correct?
Mrs. BURNS. Yes.
Mr. DELLENBAcK. So that you don't feel that the Job Corps is
the answer to all of the underprivileged youth who need help?
Mrs. BURNS. I do think for many, as I indicated, maybe 85 percent
and that certainly is a rough estimate, that I feel that among our
youngsters, yes, there is probably no better answer than Job Corps.
On the other hand, I do feel that if youngsters can do as well without
our services-I pay taxes, too-I think why not have them taken care
of in a less expensive, but effective program.
As a matter of fact, the particular obligations are of different kinds
of centers which could be spelled out, I think, quite differently because
the needs of the youngsters are not the same. No good school worth its
salt does the same thing with every kid that comes in the door.
They should have different treatment because they are different
people and need different things.
Mr. DELLENBACK. You go on further, and if I heard your testimony
correctly, you are not stating that each residential center should be
completely self-sufficient. You do this right now in your job place-
ment. You feel that the centers should be working closely with other
community involvements, other schools, other health services, other
job placement authorities, rather than each school standing or each
Job Corps center standing on its own feet.
Am I correct?
Mrs. BURNS. Yes, I feel for so many reasons, the community rela-
tions, the service that we as an agency should offer, should indeed
intermesh ourselves with as many agencies as possible. We should do
a public service, particularly since we are using governmental moneys.
I think we should as an obliga tion.
Mr. DELLENBAcK. Do I read. correctly in your comments about the
residential regionahization that even for some of the young people who,
in your opinion, should be in completely residential centers, that
there is great hazard in transporting them as far as some of the
young people, for example, have been transported to the Astoria area,
th at there should be a keeping of residential placement much closer
to the home area in ~t least many instances?
Mrs. BURNS. I feel so. I think there are many reasons for that.
The main one is homesickness. But I think there is another reason.
If you analyze the statistics, and I don't have these nationally, I
suspect that we have fairly heavy loss among rural youngsters. I think
one of the reasons is that their problems of adjustment in a large group
setting, I think, are more intense than the youngsters from the cities.
Consequently, if you had centers that more nearly were within
or from their home environment-for example, in the dorms, you
could have women who speak their language, who understand these
kids, particularly, let's say. Indian girls, I wish we had Indian staff.
I don't think they get so homesick.
But the way it is, when we are all strange and our language is strange
and the climate is different and the food is different, for some of these
PAGENO="0566"
1998
youngsters who have not traveled very far at all, this is just more than
they can face.
Mr. DELLENBACK. You gave Mrs. Green some statistics on place-
ment. I am not sure that I read through those statistics properly, but
you indicated that placement was rather substantial for young people
who came from the general environs of your center.
Yet when you took in the totality of the young people who attended
the center, there was a great dropout so that from tha.t I would assume
that the placement must be extremely low for those who come from
other than the immediate environs. Is that correct?
Mrs. BURNS. The placement data. which I have, by the way, is
what we have information on. It is not complete sometimes. But the
information we have on the placement in the States of Washington
and Oregon, the data which by the way, we know, because we did
the placing. This we know for sure. It ranges from about 73 percent
to, I think it is, about 90, depending on length of stay.
Mr. DELLENBACK. How about the young people from the eastern
part of the United States?
Mrs. BURNS. Southeast is our worst place.
Mr. DELLENBACK. Do you have any statistics on those places?
Mrs. BURNS. In general they come out a.bout 50 percent of every
youngster who has been in and out of our doors. That is the total.
On the other hand, we have some records that indicate, for example,
in some States-I think one is Louisiana-where with our girls work-
ing through the U.S. Employment Offices, there is an efficiency rate
of 10 to 15 percent.
This, of course, troubles us greatly because it is something that we
really don't have any control over. It is particularly true of the
Negroes.
Mr. DELLENBACK. May I be sure that I understand that statistic,
that you are saying that the girls coming from the Louisiana area, as
best you have statistics of those girls who have attended this center,
then only 10 or 15 percent-
Mrs. BURNS. Yes, that is not all over the State, but in certain
offices where we do have information. We don't have full information
sometimes.
Chairman PERKINS (presiding). Mr. Ford?
Mr. FORD. I yield to the gentlelady from Oregon.
Mrs. GREEN. I appreciate that very much.
I am sorry I am going to have to leave for a luncheon appointment.
There is one additional question I would like to ask. This is in regard
to the arrangement with Philco. Philco has the contract for the
vocational training?
Mrs. BURNS. Yes.
Mrs. GREEN. Do you as the Director have any authority in terms
of the procedures and so on over the teachers of the vocational edu-
cational programs and Philco subcontract?
Mrs. BURNS. Yes; Mr. Gentry, who is the associate director of the
program, always consults me on the employment of his staff.
Mrs. GREEN. When I visited there the situation was such that
the people who worked under your immediate direction and the
people who worked for Philco had different working hours, different
pay schedules, different everything, isn't this true?
PAGENO="0567"
1999
Mrs. BURNS. The working hours; no, Mrs. Green. They are ap-
proximately the same. We have many different working hours de-
pending on what people do.
Mrs. GREEN. I was told by personnel there that if an emergency
caine up, and they had duty all night, that a Philco person was not
called.
Mrs. BURNS. We had that straightened out because I made it very
clear that all the staff there, who are academic types of people, may in
fact have to supervise. They may have to be called in with emergencies.
That with Philco no longer exists.
Mrs. GREEN. For future contracts, do you think this is the best way
to do it, to have the University of Oregon with the prime contract
and a subcontract to Philco?
Mrs. BURNS. I am not sure it is the best way to do it. We have been
happy with the arrangement generally. It has worked out very well.
We have had a number of services and help, I feel, from Philco even in
placement.
Mrs. GREEN. I thank my colleague from Michigan and I would
request unanimous consent that he be allowed an additional 5 minutes.
Chairman PERKINS. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. FORD. Thank, you, Mr. Chairman. Mrs. Burns, I want to
tell you how pleased I am to have had the opportunity to hear your
testimony. I am a little bit surprised that people in a position like
yours still have the heart left in them to continue this fight. What
we have heard in the past couple of weeks about what has happened to
the morale of the people in this program would make you wonder
why anybody continues to fight. We know that all of you could
have quickly been employed elsewhere with less pain and in very
needed positions.
I would like to say that the fact that you do keep fighting and
that people like you have appeared before this committee indicating
that they will continue is something that a lot of young people in
this country will hold a great debt for. It may do more than any-
thing that might come from the eloquence of the members of this
committee could do to convince our colleagues in the Congress
that at least we ought to go slowly about dismantling this program.
I would like to compliment you also-and I am sorry that she
left-for securing, for the first time since I have been on the com-
mittee, the agreement from the gentlelady from Oregon that ther e
is a place in our poverty program for residential centers such as the
Job Corps centers. This is a position that I am glad to see her come
to.
Mr. DELLENBACK. Will the gentleman yield?
Mr. FORD. I will.
Mr. DELLENBACK. May I make a brief comment in the absence
of my colleague from Oregon, even though she be on the other side
of the aisle, let me say that I have never interpreted her position as
saying that there is no position for residential centers whatsoever. It
is a case of degTee.
Mr. FORD. I don't choose to yield further. I am not talking about
what the gentleman perceives her position to he. I made it clear that
is what I perceive her position to be.
PAGENO="0568"
2000
When you refer to the Southeastern United States as a source of
some of your people, do these tend to he the rural areas of Southeastern
United States?
Mrs. BURNS. Heavily.
Mr. FORD. Do they include the area we refer to as the Appalachian
States?
Mrs. BURNS. We get some, but the numbers are small.
Mr. F0RD.Is it a fair assumption that very few of the enrollees that
you would have at a place like Tongue Point would have come from
cities of any substantial size in the South?
Mrs. BURNS. I am sorry I can't give you accurate data. on that.
I don't have it with me. I know in the past our data revealed that
heavily these youngsters are rural.
Mr. FORD. You have 800 girls, I believe, or young women, as you
indicated a few moments ago. Mrs. Green characterized the location
as being near a very small, somewhat provincial, I think was the word,
town. HOWT big is the closest city to rrongue Point?
Mrs. BURNS. Astoria is 3 miles away and it is 10,000.
Mr. FORD. What was the physical facility at Tongue Point before
it became a~ Job Corps center?
Mrs. BURNS. It was a Navy base.
Mr. FORD. And then Tongue Point was created by taking over
buildings that were left over after use by the Navy?
Mrs. BURNS. Of course, I was not there at that time, but with
money spent for rehabilitation of buildings.
Mr. FORD. You are from Oregon?
Mrs. BURNS. I am from California really.
Mr. FORD. In the event that we were to attempt to find physical
facilities for 800 girls, how far would we have to go to find a city
where we might be able to accommodate that ninny people in a
residential center?
Mrs. BURNS. Are you asking about moving our center?
Mr. FORD. ~1es.
Mrs. BURNS. There would be facilities in Portland.
Mr. FORD. It is correct that generally, where we have attempted to
put centers in the cities for women, we have ended up putting them
in obsolete hotels or similar type buildings that are obsolete and are
in the worst section of town in terms of the social problems that
surround the area?
We have had some unfortunate problems in attempting to get
people to contract for and open women's Job Corps centers. Members
of this committee have been most insistent that we reach as closely
as possible a position of equality in the number of men and women
in the Job Corps. A number of devices have been used to push us in
that direction.
During your experience, have you absorbed any of the girls that
have come from women's centers that have already been closed down?
Mrs. BURNS. Today is Tuesday. Tomorrow we start receiving girls
from Omaha.
Mr. FORD. You have been ordered to shut down when?
Mrs. BURNS. No; we don't have any orders, thank goodness.
Mr. FORD. You don't have the orders yet?
Mrs. BURNS. No.
Mr. FORD. How many girls will you receive from Omaha?
PAGENO="0569"
2001
Mrs. BURNS. I think tomorrow we are supposed to get 45 and then
we are scheduled in so many numbers every week. I don't have those
with me, but a schedule has been set out. In fact, we have a staff
member who went to Omaha on Monday to bring these girls back
to Oregon.
Mr. FORD. Criticism has been made before this committee that Job
Corps has been woefully deficient in its performance in both recruit-
ment and placement. This criticism was made in support of the decision
to shift the Job Corps from the Office of Economic Opportunity to
the Labor Department and then subsequently in support of a decision
to cut about $100 million out of its budget and thereby close 59 or 57
centers.
I gather from your testimony here this morning that you would not
agree that that is a fair appraisal of Job Corps' role or a fair statement
of the facts in determining a failure that would justify such a decision?
Mrs. BURNS. No. I think there are no facts that could be mustered
to justify massive closings.
Mr. FORD. But with respect to placement, is it fair to use a criticism
of the performance of Job Corps, at least from the point of view of
your experience at Tongue Point, any failures in job placement?
Mrs. BURNS. I don't think you can narrow it that much, Congress-
man. I think the basic structuring on inputs of youngsters and place-
ment, as I pointed out, should be tied together. That hasn't been done.
Why, I don't know. But I think that would be a good improvement.
Mr. FORD. I agree with that, but we are not talking about what
might be if, in fact, you had been given the authority to develop re-
cruiting and placement services. Under the authority you have had
and the system you have operated with, is it a fair criticism to hold
you responsible for recruitment and/or placement when at the same
time we play the numbers game here with percentages?
Mrs. BURNS. I think it is very unfair to do so.
Mr. FORD. As a matter of fact, the principa.l statements with regard
to that, the strongest statements, have come from the Secretary of
Labor. And my understanding has been that most of the Job Corps
centers depend most heavily on the La.bor Department-administered
programs for recruitment, particularly with respect to the boys, and
that you rely on the Employment Service as a source of finding
placement for them.
Mrs. BURNS. The mechanism for placement is too cumbersome and
it is impossible to work effectively with so many offices and then
obviously in dealing with hundreds of offices, some are interested and
I am quite certain some don't care a whit.
Mr. FORD. In visiting a number of Job Corps centers and in talking
with people who have been directly concerned, it came as something of
a~ surprise to me to learn that the person who lived in what we consider
to be the less desirable city ghetto experiences the same kind of pangs
of homesicknesses to return to that environment when they are located
at the center, that a person coming from what appears from this point
of view to be a more desirable physical surrounding. In making place-
ments a very serious obstacle has been the problems created if you
place a person where a job is but where the surroundings are alien and
the people are different.
I was also a little surprised to hear from what you said this morning
that, at least with respect to the ladies going to Tongue Point, your
PAGENO="0570"
2002
retention and placement problems are heightened when you are
dealing with those who come from a rural setting, as distinguished
from those who come from the big city ghetto.
That is what I had believed to be the natural sort of a consequence
since the presumption is that poorer rural America is somehow more
virtuous than the city.
But what would we do with the girls from the Southeast, for
example, in terms of providing an alternative to the training they are
now getting, if we shift our emphasis completely from the residential
center to the so-called mini-center or near-city center?
Mrs. BURNS. No, I don't think the proposed mini-centers would
nearly accommodate the youngsters. There are too many of them.
I think, we need very badly a larger present Job Crops-type facility
in the South. There isn't any, as you probably know.
Mr. FORD. Although you do have girls coming from outside
Washington-Oregon area, I think you indicated that they represented
less than a. third of population.
Has that been fairly consistent from the beginning of the center?
Mrs. BURNS. Yes. We get very few girls, as a matter of fact, from
Washington.
Mr. FORD. How long have you been in the center?
Mrs. BURNS. Two years. That was a men's center.
Mr. FORD. You came to the center at about the time the Congress
directed the Job Corps to begin an intensive program of opening
women's centers?
Mrs. BURNS. That is right.
Mr. FORD. As a matter of fact, we closed a number of men's
centers and opened women's centers in their stead in order to effectu-
ate a greater sense of balance between male and female population,
at the instance of this committee and Congress.
I take it part of the reason for the switch from a men's center to
a women's center a.t Tongue Point was that action by the Congress.
Do you have any experience at all with what was substituted for
the men's center? Was it about the same size, 800 men that had been
there before?
Mrs. BURNS. The boys left in January. I came on board in June.
Mr. FORD. Is there another center in Oregon or Washington that
absorbed these people?
Mrs. BURNS. I really don't know, Congressman. I came there
several months after the last boy left, so I really don't know.
Mr. FORD. Do you have any men's centers left in Oregon?
Mrs. BURNS. We have two left in Oregon, two conservation centers,
but we have no urban men's centers.
Mr. FORD. This is what you consider an urban center?
Mrs. BURNS. Yes.
Mr. FORD. I also took note of your expression that you were most
concerned in your mission with these young women about overskill
training, vis-a-vis true employability.
None of the measures and none of the criteria that have been used
thus far to justify a massive cutback in the Job Corps have dealt
with any subjective material. Most of the objective material has
been related entirely to increases in reading skills, increases in math
skills, percentages of finding full-time employment, increases in
income, over previous employment before entering the center.
PAGENO="0571"
2003
Do you feel, in evaluating the mission of the Job Corps in the
residential centers, that the evaluation ought to be weighed with
factors other than those which are measurable by the usual educa-
tional standards?
Mrs. BURNS. I certainly do. I think there are many indicators, by
the way, which will quantify social and emotional maturity. These
should be part of the evaluation.
I indicated to some of the officials in Job Corps, in the headquarters,
and I don't know whether they quite agree with me, that when the
time came up for appropriations, all the time fighting for money, I
felt it would be a very good idea if they would develop a number of
films that would really show from the time a girl arrives until she
leaves.
I don't know if they have done that or not, but these would be
films which showed changes, and candid types of shots which show
how these children change over time.
I am sure you have heard this many times, but this is the most
dramatic thing that happens in Job Corps.
Mr. FORD. I believe you stated that your professional experience
before coming with Job Corps, has been in the field of education,and
that you have been associated with the operating of a college?
Mrs. BURNS. Yes.
Mr. FORD. Have you dealt for any period of time in your life, prior
to Job Corps, with the age group of young men and women we are
dealing with here?
Mrs. BURNS. Yes, all my life.
Mr. FORD. We have had develop in the past few days a very
unfortunate series of suggestions that somehow we have managed
to collect together in the Job Corps a group of people who, because
of the setting of the Job Corps, have become less likely to have what
we good Americans think are proper moral standards. I am not sure
what the materiality of this is to our determination-but clearly
it has been inflammatory and affected public opinion across the
country.
Under a heading saying that administration sources released the
information, I noticed in the papers over the weekend stories saying
that we have all sorts of immoral conduct going on in these Job Corps
centers that for some reason must justify us in quickly shutting
them down. I have already heard that my constituents noticed these
stories, too.
How do the girls that you are dealing with compare, in terms of
disciplinary problems and in terms of their response to the approaches
taken in helping them to establish individual values, with young
women that you have dealt with over your career?
Mrs. BURNS. The main difference is a difference in sophistication.
What they end up doing I don't think is too different, if you value or
look at what they are doing in terms of some kind of value standard.
However, depending on the recruitment, and where the youngsters
are placed in centers, I think there is some variation in the behavior
of the girls, depending on their home environments, and they are not
all the same from one center to another, necessarily.
We do get a smaller percentage of people who have juvenile records.
Right now, we have girls in our centers from all of the major riot
areas from all over this country. Not too long ago, for example,
PAGENO="0572"
2004
I had two devices thrown in mv window where there was some
burning. This was enough.
I am sure if we did not have a sympathetic press, we would have
suffered some of the ills of criticism.
Generally speaking, Congressman, to answer you very pointedly,
yes, I would agree that these youngsters are less sophisticated,
they are much more open about what they do, and I think possibly
the incidence of, say, criminal tendencies and so on, delinquency,
yes, it is a little higher than in the normal population, but it is difficult
to measure because highly sophisticated youngsters are highly discreet,
and they learn this from their parents, and they may be doing the
same things you are criticizing in these disadvantaged children,
because the more sophisticated ones have learned to cover up things
as a result of their backgrounds.
Mr. FORD. Do you feel it is your responsibility to assist them in
adjusting to group living and to a more regulated type of life than
they may have come from, either in a very poor rural area, or city
ghetto?
Mrs. BURNS. We put a tremendous emphasis on this. As a matter
of fact, what goes on in our residences in terms of group sessions,
large group sessions, individual sessions, and counseling, this is at
the heart of what we are doing.
The whole tone of everything on that center is to determine, to a
very large degree, the activities within the residents, and these are
all couched around trying to improve the conduct, the behavior, the
aspirational level of these individuals.
Mr. FORD. Thank you very much.
Mr. DELLENBACK. Mr. Chairman, just very briefly.
Is your primary contact, Dr. Burns, with the university, or is your
primary contact with the subcontractor, or is your primary contact
with the Government agencies that deal with the Job Corps centers
at your particular center?
Mrs. BURNS. The subcontractor, Philco-Ford, is part of the center.
Our contacts are constant. I never remember that they are different.
They are just one group of people, and we are all running that center.
I have day-to-day contact with our project manager, and the Job
headquarters office. By the same token, I have constant contact
with the university, particularly with Dr. Harold Abel, who is my
liaison through the president's office.
So they are about equal, Congressman.
Mr. DELLENBAcK. Do you anticipate any difficulty in dealing
with most of your contacts with the Federal Government in the
event of this transfer to the Labor Department?
Mrs. BURNS. I am sorry, I did not hear the first part of your
question.
Mr. DELLENBAcK. So far as your relationship is with the Federal
Government and its representatives, do you anticipate any difficulty
in the event that the projected transfer of Job Corps to the Labor
Department is accomplished?
Mrs. BURNS. I would like to say for the record that my contacts
with Job Corps headquarters staff have been mainly with the Women's
Directorate. I have very high regard for a. number of the people in that
program. They have a lot of brains and experience, and I certainly
have appreciated their help and their support.
PAGENO="0573"
2005
I really don't know people in the Labor Department. I don't
really have direct, firsthand knowledge of Labor programs, so other
than to say my own experience with headquarters staff in OEO,
my experience has been rich, and I certainly have been very, very
appreciative of their help, I can't really make any comparisons,
because I don't have any information on the Department of Labor.
Mr. DELLENBACK. So without speaking in derogation of OEO,
in fact you speak of praising them, but you don't feel you can make any
judgments whether the contacts with their counterparts in Labor
would be better or worse?
Mrs. BURNS. Naturally you are always concerned about individuals.
I mean what kind of relationships can you develop with individuals,
I don't know the people, and I don't even know the structure of the
Department of Labor.
The only hesitation that I would have would be that of, I would
hope certainly that the people in the Department of Labor would
he as concerned, if not more so, in all of the other things we are doing
in these programs, not just in what so many people seem to refer to
as skill training.
This program is much bigger, and much more important than just
skill training.
Mr. DELLENBACK. I am sure I don't need to call this to your atten-
tion, but Secretary Shultz in testifying on this point has made the
pomt of equal importance is the belief that such intensive and sup-
portive services-and he has expanded on that particular concept,
so he has expressed himself very clearly along the very lines you are
speaking to.
The last question along this line-actually, your contacts with
the Government people are primarily on the regional level rather
than on the national level. Are you dealing here in Washington as you
are in the region?
Mrs. BURNS. My personal contacts almost exclusively are with
the Washington office.
Mr. DELLENBACK. With the Washington office of Job Corps?
Mrs. BURNS. That is right.
Mr. DELLENBACK. If these personnel and the Job Corps is taken
over as part of the operation in the Labor Department, do you antic-
ipate that they would continue?
Mrs. BURNS. I would surely hope they are. I think it would be a
great loss not to have the abilities of these people.
This is not really my department.
Mr. DELLENBACK. Thank you very much for coming this far and
for what I think has been very helpful testimony.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. Thank you very much, Mrs. Burns. You have
been very helpful to the committee, and I entertain your views about
the necessity of the Job Corps.
I think the Job Corps centers have done a great job in this country.
We do not have any other facilities as a substitute at this point in
the game.
It is all right, to open the mini-centers, because we are short of
facilities, but we should not turn our backs on the type of youngster
presently serving in the Job Corps when we do not have any other
facilities to serve this youngster.
PAGENO="0574"
2006
Do you agree with that?
Mrs. BURNS. Yes, I do.
Chairman PERKINS. Thank you very much for your appearance
today.
Our next witnesses are Mr. Byron Brady, director of the Washing-
ton State Office of Economic Opportunity, Mr. Jeff Monroe, director,
West Virginia Office of Economic Opportunity, and Mr. Robert
Allen, director, Texas Office of Economic Opportunity.
Let me thank all of you distinguished gentlemen for your appear-
ance here today, and will the gentleman in the center serve as moder-
ator, or do you all have separate statements?
Mr. ALLEN. Mr. Chairman, we have not had an opportunity to
confer.
Chairman PERKINS. You may all make separate statements, and
your prepared statements wifi be inserted in the record, and we will
take you as you are listed here.
Mr. Byron Brady will be the first witness.
STATEMENT OP BYRON BRADY, DIRECTOR, WASHINGTON STATE
OFFICE OP ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY
Mr. BRADY. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I greatly appreciate the opportunity to appear here. I have sat here
all morning, and I heard Mayor Cavanagh's remarks, and I appre-
ciated that opportunity.
I do think it is important that a State which has had a very positive
experience in the war on poverty in the Office of Economic Oppor-
tunity have opportunity, and that our voice as one State not be lost
in a summary or consensus of views from all States, but also be heard
as an individual State.
I am also personally deeply impressed with the committee's willing-
ness to continue over a long period of time a discussion of OEO
programs prior to any changes that might take place.
I think the OEO program has managed to combine the Congress
deep commitment for social change and social equality with a develop-
ment of individual independence and self-reliance, and in this regard
merits continued bipartisan support.
I will probably take all of the steam out of my comments by saying
this next thing, but I find very little in ]\`layor Cavanagh's cormnents
that I can take exception to. As a matter of fact, I thought they were
excellent.
I would perhaps say the city of Detroit has an outstanding mayor.
I hope all mayors are as outstanding.
The State of Washington has an outstanding Governor. Because of
that, I think the poverty programs have worked in Detroit, and the
poverty programs are working in the State of Washington.
I do have a prepared statement, of which I have submitted copies.
Chairman PERKINS. Without objection, your prepared statement
will be inserted in the record.
(Statement to be furnished follows:)
PAGENO="0575"
2007
PROGRAMS OF THE OFFICE OF ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY IN WASHINGTON STATE
AND RECOMMENDATIONS FOR ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY LEGISLATIVE AND
ADMINISTRATIVE ACTION
(By Byron E. Brady, Director Washington State Office of Economic Opportunity)
Since it's inception the Office of Economic Opportunity has produced significant
change on behalf of the poor in the public and private human benefiting institu-
tions of the nation. These institutions have been stimulated to become more
responsive, more relevant in programming and much more aware that their basic
obligation is to free poor people to become self sustaining and contributing
citizens.
If these words do not have specific meaning to us, let us contrast what they
imply with the previous posture and record of public and private institutions in
relation to the poor. They were delivering services in accordance with the biases
present in the communities and states in which they existed. They were generally
not advocates of freeing the poor from their condition of poverty, but were more
often oriented toward making poverty more tolerable.
No greater, or more important, change in America's social and service institu-
tions could take place, yet we often seem unwilling to admit that the innovative
and far reaching concepts and programs of the office of Economic Opportunity
have brought this change about.
How does one state, the State of Washington, perceive the programs of the
Office of Economic Opportunity? In brief, with gratitude for the program and
pride in our positive contribution, which has been made through cooperation
with local, regional and national agencies of the Office of Economic Opportunity.
Washington State's Office of Economic Opportunity has operated since April
1965. It has assisted in establishing 28 Community Action Agencies, which serve
30 of our 39 counties, and seven Indian communities. It has assisted in the develop-
ment of programs for migrant farm workers, has provided aid to other O.E.O.
programs, such as Job Corps, Neighborhood Youth Corps and Headstart, and
has stimulated state agencies to direct more of their resources to the "hard core"
poor. The state Office of Economic Opportunity operates a state-wide New
Careers program which is providing extensive career opportunities for disad-
vantaged persons in public service. Art overview of this program is attached.
The Washington State Office of Economic Opportunity is directly related to the
Office of the Governor and the director serves on the Governor's cabinet. The
state Office of Economic Opportunity has been instrumental in developing state
legislation to benefit the poor.
In 1967, the State Legislature appropriated $750,000 to match local federal
Headstart grants. During the 1967-69 biennium the Governor allocated over
$300,000 in emergency funds directly to urban O.E.O. agencies. During the 1969-
71 biennium the state's direct contribution to the state O.E.O. budget will exceed
$1.5 million including several hundred thousand dollars for assistance to local
agencies and organizations offering unique solutions to the problem of poverty.
Considering the fact that no significant additional program funds have been
made available to them for several years, the state's 28 Community Action
Agencies are maintaining their efforts and their stature in their communities.
Their contributions are recognized by state and community leadership. Citizen
involvement in the solution of neighborhood problems has dramatically increased.
A state Office of Economic Opportunity sponsored citizen participation con-
ference in Seattle in early 1969, was attended by over 600 low income represent-
atives of Community Action Agencies. They participated in workshops which
produced specific ideas for improvement in programs and legislation on behalf of
low income citizens. Ten state legislators participated in this conference as re-
source persons. The conference and subsequent activities at the local level are a
clear demonstration that poor persons can and will play a positive role in citizen
action. An article describing this conference is attached.
Community Action Agencies in Washington State are operating neighborhood
centers, which in most cases are poor people's only link with resources and assistance
available to them. Summaries of the activities of several neighborhood centers are
attached. Community Action Agency programs, including health and legal serv-
ices, are stimulating the development of more effective service delivery systems.
The citizen involvement and community organization contributions of Community
Action Agencies have been instrumental in the development and implementation
of other O.E.O. programs including Headstart and Neighborhood Youth Corps.
CAA efforts have stimulated increased involvement and support from local
government. In addition, the state O.E.O. has maintained working relationships
PAGENO="0576"
2008
with the Association of Washington Cities and the Association of County
Commissioners.
Community Action Agencies have been successful in providing new training
opportunities for disadvantaged and minority persons. Summaries of several
typical agency activities are attached.
Community Action Agencies in Washington State conduct extensive programs
which create new opportunities for the poor. A summary of a typical Community
Action Agency's program is attached.
Emerging from the citizen action concept of the CAAs have been a significant
number of self-help enterprises; usually based in a community corporate structure.
These include the United Inner City Development Foundation and Central Area
Cooperative in Seattle, the "Now, Mr. Lincoln Fund" in Tacoma, the United
Farm Workers Cooperative in Toppenish, the Self Help Cooperative in Pasco
and Mini-Industries, Incorporated in Okanogan. Major new efforts in neighbor-
hood economic development are being formulated. The Washington State Legis-
lature is now considering a Neighborhood Assistance Act which will encourage
contributions from industry and business to such corporations.
A detailed list of institutional change resulting from O.E.O. initiatives and
example would be too extensive to cover completely. The following examples are
illustrative:
The State Department of Health, in cooperation with CAAs and Washing-
ton Citizens for Migrant Affairs, Incorporated, conducted two experimental
farm workers health clinics during the summer of 1968.
The State Board of Health strengthened housing regulations for farm
workers in 1968 and has increased technical assistance and enforcement in
this area.
The State Department of Public Instruction has provided financial as-
sistance to Seattle and Tacoma school districts to improve community in-
volvement and support for school programs in poverty areas.
The State Department of Public Instruction is seeking a $4 million ap-
propriation from the State Legislature specifically for new programs for
disadvantaged and minority persons. School districts are currently developing
program proposals.
The State Department of Public Assistance has been instrumental in the
development of the New Careers program and is currently restructuring its
own career development process and providing training and employment for
disadvantaged persons.
The State Department of Public Assistance is cooperating with the State
O.E.O. in the development of a state-wide legal service program for the poor.
The State Department of Employment Security is providing staff support
for a state inter-agency task group on migrant labor. This task group de-
velops programs in cooperation with CAAs and O.E.O. migrant projects
throughout the spring and summer months.
The State Department of Employment Security is supporting O.E.O.
neighborhood centers by outstationiag personnel in these centers and by pro-
viding direct technical assistance.
The State Division of Vocational Rehabilitation is redirecting resources to
supplement the neighborhood center activities of CAAs.
The State Department of Labor and Industries conducted statewide
hearings on coverage of farm workers under workman's compensation and
subsequently placed 40% of farm workers under workman's compensation
provisions. Additional coverage is possible in the future as a result of this
precedent.
The State Department of Institutions is increasing citizen involvement in
community mental health planning in cooperation with CAAs.
The State Planning and Community Affairs Agency has been emphasizing
low income participation in comprehensive health planning.
The Office of the Governor has established advisory committees on Farm
Labor and Indian Affairs, with major low income representation. The State
Employment Security Department, in cooperation with the Indian Affairs
Advisory Committee has employed eleven Indian outreach workers.
Washington State O.E.O. ha.s enjoyed excellent working relationships with
O.E.O. national and regional offices. Communications have been maintained
and staff have worked cooperatively in planning, training and field work activities.
National and regional offices have been responsive to state requests for guidance
and assistance. Currently the regional and state offies are jointly conducting
evaluations of community action programs.
PAGENO="0577"
2009
The state O.E.O. has consistently communicated suggestions for improved
operations to national O.E.O. Within their capacity to respond, we believe effec-
tive action has been taken. The State has been encouraged to assume greater
responsibility in training, planning and evaluation. We are prepared to do so, and
believe that our relationships with local communities have been maintained in
such a manner as to make them responsive to greater involvement of the state.
We have the following recommendations for future legislative and administra-
tive action on Economic Opportunity programs:
1. Emphasis should be placed on extending the non-profit corporation
concept for planning and program development. Community Action Agencies
and Neighborhood Development Corporations are an excellent vehicle for the
delivery of services financed by both the public and private sectors. They are
unique in the capabilities for community organization and participation and
are an effective alternative to increasing bureaucratic structures.
2. Consideration should be given to increasing the fiscal control capabilities
of Community Action Agencies. Program accounting limitations at the local
level have been a major obstacle to efficient program planning and budgeting.
3. Added appropriations for food and clothing programs of Community
Action Agencies should be provided. No community agency has a greater
capacity for delivering services in this area.
4. There is an extreme need to systematize national, state, regional and
local coordination of all War on Poverty efforts. Policy implementation has
frequently been obstructed by autonomous actions of federal agencies.
Jurisdictional disputes are not serious, however, coordinated action is fre-
quently avoided because of the possibility of unpleasant confrontations
between responsible officials. Agencies in the human benefits field frequently
participate in complex maneuvers designed to avoid genuine cooperation
with other agencies. We recommend the establishment of a Human Resources
Development Coordinating Council in the office of the President. This would
be a form of sub-cabinet of human benefit agency directors.
5. Authorizations and appropriations for the Office of Economic Opportu-
nity should be for longer periods. This is essential if state government is to
be encouraged to participate through provision of resources. It is also essential
for staff morale and to attract highly qualified personnel. It is a requirement
of effective planning and would bestow upon O.E.O. the prestige necessary
to perform effectively at the state and local levels.
6. A diversity of technical assistance and training resources should be
encouraged. The primary criteria for funding grantees in these areas should
be their ability to deliver services at the local program level. In many cases
states would be the most logical recipient of technical assistance and training
grants. In other cases non-profit corporations should be considered, based
upon local need and the quality of program prposals. The same is true in the
delivery of consulting resources.
7. States should be given the authority for planning and funding Economic
Opportunity programs in proportion to the assumption of responsibility.
This is possible under existing legislation, but might be further encouraged
by providing planning and funding authority to states in program areas in
which they provide significant matching appropriations.
8~ When programs are transferred from O.E.O. administration to another
appropriate agency the decision to do so should take into consideration the
agency's ability to effectively relate to community citizen groups and low
income citizens. Efficiency is not the only major measure of the program
productivity. Ability of the administering agency to relate to and involve
program beneficiaries is critical. Whenever an O.E.O. program is transferred
specific provisions should be made to assure continued working relationships
with Community Action Agencies.
9. Renewed consideration should be given to providing increased appro-
priations for O.E.O. day care, legal services, health and housing programs at
the neighborhood level. These are absolutely essential program support for
the increasing number of federal manpower efforts. States should be en-
couraged to provide matching funds in these areas.
10. The states should not have total authority in relation to federal pro-
grams funded at the city level. Cities have a legitimate claim for direct
federal assistance. Greater state involvement should be in proportion to the
state's measurable contributions.
11.. Existing Economic Opportunity legislation has adequate provision
for involvement of local government in O.E.O. programs. With very few
27-754-69-pt. 3-37
PAGENO="0578"
2010
exceptions, local governments are playing a positive role in Community
Action Programs in Washington State.
We have received the recommendations of the National Governors' Conference
regarding O.E.O. We believe these recommendations can be implemented within
the framework of existing Economic Opportunity legislation. Washington State
is moving to improve and increase its community development and social welfare
planning capacities. At the request of the Governor, the 1969 State Legislature
is considering the creation of a Community Affairs and Development Agency
which will include the State Office of Economic Opportunity. This agency will
coordinate state services to local government and community organizations.
With this new agency the state will be able to assume greater responsibility in
the field of human resources development. The continuation of current Economic
Opportunity programs is an essential support for these state efforts.
Many have said that O.E.O. has elevated the hopes and expectations of the
poor. We believe that this is a credit rather than a debit. We believe our response
now should not be the reduction of our efforts, but should be the fulfillment of
our commitments through adequate long-range planning and funding.
Mr. BRADY. I would like to summarize some of the comments in it.
The OEO programs in the State of Washington have brought about
the significant change in the operations of traditional agencies. These
agencies previously were more oriented, I am afraid, to making the
condition of poverty somewhat tolerable, rather than eliminating
poverty.
The State of Washington has for 4 years now worked to support
community action programs. We helped the establishment of 28
community action agencies. We have worked with Job Corps, with
migrant labor programs, with Headstart, with Neighborhood Youth
Corps, and at the State level we have developed a statewide new
careers program.
I serve in the Governor's public service cabinet, and have had
carte blanche in the OEO program in the State, and we have estab-
lished excellent working relationships with community action agencies,
with local government officials, and with the regional and national
OEO.
In addition, the State of Washington has appropriated direct funds
to economic opportunity programs-last biennial: $750,000 for Head-
start match, State money. The Governor appropriated $300,000 from
his emergency fund directly to OEO local units.
This year the legislature is apparently completing a budget of $3.1
million for the State Office of Economic Opportunity, $1.5 million of
which is State money.
Our State followed the State of Hawaii, and I noticed Mrs. ~vIink
was here.
I would like to compliment Walter Chun, the State director of OEO
there for having a very positive attitude.
Chairman PERKINS. I hate to interrupt you, but I have to go an-
swer the quorum call, and the committee will recess for about 7 or 8
minutes.
(Brief recess.)
Chairman PERKINS. The committee will come to order.
Go ahead with the balance of your statement, Mr. Brady.
Mr. BRADY. I was saying that the State of Washington followed the
State of Hawaii in conducting what I believe are the only two state-
wide citizen participation conferences.
In our conference, held near Seattle, we had over 700 low-income
persons representing community action agencids. Appearing before
them were 10 State legislators. This group has now organized into
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2011
local community organizations. They have submitted their legislative
recommendations to the legislature.
As a result, a great deal of social legislation has been introduced in
this session of the State's legislature.
I have also submitted a list of the changes which have taken place in
State government which are a direct result of programs of the Office of
Economic Opportunity, and I wish to emphasize once more that the
State of Washington has had excellent working relationships with the
regional and national OEO.
We have the following recommendations.
We believe that the nonprofit corporation feature of OEO pro-.
graming should be increased and supported. We believe that there
should be consideration given to greater funding of community action
programs in order to control their planning and budget systems.
We believe there should be increased appropriations for food and
clothing and medical programs.
We believe that there should be, and this very much concides
with Mayor Cavanagh's statement, some means of bringing more
sense into the jurisdictional problems of Federal agencies, and we
believe the State could help in that regard.
We do believe very strongly that OEO appropriations, particularly
community action appropriations, should be for longer periods of
time.
I have no figure in mind. I think I would concur rather heartily
with Senator N elson's recommendation of 3 years, or go even longer
than that.
We have no criticism, Mr. Chairman, with the diversity of technical
assistance and trainee resources.
We do not believe the State should control all such programs.
We do believe that we should have an opportunity to play a positive
role.
Perhaps a main point of our concern is that we believe the States
should be given authority in the planning and funding of economic
opportunity programs in direct proportion to their assumption of
responsibility. I believe that this is measured many times by State
appropriations and State cash and State contributions.
Chairman PERKINS. You entertain the same views Mayor
Cavanagh entertains. It is all right with them to assume responsi-
bility, if they assume some responsibility at the State level and put
something in it. If they do not contribute to. the programs, you are
opposed to them taking the programs over lock, stock, and barrel; are
you not?
Mr. BRADY. Yes; I am.
Chairman PERKINS. They now have the coordinating authority,
and that is working well.
Am I correct in that statement?
Mr. BRADY. Yes; I believe it is working well in the State of
Washington.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead.
Mr. BRADY. We believe if programs are transferred from the Office
of Economic Opportunity, and we do not necessarily favor that, that
there should be strong provisions built in for a continuing responsi-
bility of the community action agency, and the citizen participation
in those programs.
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2012
We believe that there should be continued and greater appro-
priations to the Office of Economic Opportunity for such manpower
supporting programs as day care, legal services, health, and housing.
We do not believe that States should have, and I am repeating
slightly, here, total authority in relation to Federal programs funded
at the city level.
I think we have struck in the State of Washington a very nice
relationship with mayors and county commissioners, and we believe
that that can be contmued under existing legislation.
I believe that all of the recommendations, or the essential ingredients
of the recommendations of the National Governors' Conference
can be implemented with the existing legislation, if States do take a
positive role.
I will conclude with that remark, except, Mr. Chairman, if I might
take the liberty to do so and say a few things about Job Corps.
I did forward a letter to Senator Gaylord Nelson in this regard,
which I believe he entered into the testimony in the Senate, in which
I strongly criticized the closing of Job Corps centers, particularly
the two that are slated for closing in the State of Washington, the
women's Job Corps center at Moses Lake, operated by Avco, and
the men's center at Cispus.
I cited some statistics, citing these are excellent centers, particu-
larly the Cispus center, which has a 66-percent placement record, and
judged by Job Corps criteria, ranks 15th among the Job Corps centers
in the Nation.
It cost a. million dollars to set this camp up originally, and they
are operated at $4,800 a year. It has support from the governmental
sector.
After this letter was sent, I took the liberty of sending it to our
entire delegation, including Congressman Meeds, who responded,
and also had a response from Congresswoman May, and if I may,
since it is very short, I would like to read it.
Chairman PERKINs. Just insert it in the record.
(Letter to be furnished follows:)
STATE OF WASHINGTON,
OFFICE OF ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY,
Olympia, Wash., April 22, 1969.
Hon. GAYLORD NELSON,
Senate Office Building,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR SENATOR NELSON: While there is still time, we urge Congress to renew its
support for the Job Corps concept and the 113 centers now in operation. Specifi-
cally, we believe the Moses Lake Women's Center, operated by AVCO and the
Cispus Men's Conservation Center, operated by the U.S. Forest Service, both in
Washington State, should be retained. The facts of national need and the per-
formance of these two centers do not warrant their closure.
The Moses Lake Center is operating, under the excellent direction of a private
corporation, with 35 enrollees more than their contract requires at a cost of 6 per-
cent below the contract figure. AVCO has three years' experience in Job Corps
operation and many of the outstanding staff of the Center moved to remote
Moses Lake out of deep commitment to the purposes of the program. This center
has a low drop-out rate for women's centers and though the placement rate is not
impressive, it should be pointed out that the responsibility for placement lies with
the State employment services. Job Corps has no field placement staff.
In Washington State we are seeking to improve Job Corps placement by action
at the local level. The Seattle YWCA has been working in this area and the state
is currently giving serious consideration to funding a Job Corps "half way house"
in the Seattle area. The expanding economy of Washington State is conducive
to the continued placement of Job Corps graduates.
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2013
The director of the Moses Lake Center has informed us that not all of the
enrollees will respond to a transfer to another center, and further, that many of
them have no homes to go to. It should be remembered that their presence in
the center is voluntary and that the individual enrollees have assumed the respon-
sibility to improve themselves. The closure of 59 centers will have a dramatically
negative effect on poverty area youth throughout the nation as it signifies a depre-
ciation of national commitment. The absence of any visible and immediate
alternative to Job Corps will verify these negative reactions.
The Moses Lake Center operates at a cost of $5,000 per enrollee/year. This is
significantly less than care in Washington's institutions for delinquent youth.
The Cispus Center for men has made a lasting contribution to the care of this
State's natural resources. For nearly four years it has received the high praises
of nearly every segment of Washington's community leadership. It operates with
a fantastically low (11 per cent) drop-out rate and has a 66 per cent placement
record. Judged by five basic Job Corps performance criteria, it ranks 15th among
the 82 conservation centers in the nation and operates at a cost of $4, 800 per
enrollee/year. $1,000,000 was invested in opening the Center. The Center Director
has informed us that one-half of the men will not transfer to a new center, but will
elect to return home.
The Cispus Center has had outstanding community relations. The Moses Lake
Center, though experiencing serious problems initially, has had consistently
improving citizen support. We know of no serious criticism of any Washington
State Job Corps Center at this time. Corpsmen have had excellent recreational
experiences in this State. On one occasion, 60 Corpsmen worked all night in
cooperation with the State Civil Defense Department with sand bags to divert
flood waters approaching the business district of a small rural community. The
City of Spokane has operated a staffed Job Corps recreational program.
The concept of remoteness from the Corpsmen's home community is supported
by our experiences in Washington State. The one center at Neah Bay, which
enrolled a substantial number of local residents, was not successful in its efforts
and was closed two years ago.
Our experience indicates that Job Corps is making a significant contribution
to individual motivation and ability in balance with, if not exceeding, expected
relationship to costs per enrollee. Th~ program is an investment in youth we
cannot afford to be without.
Sincerely,
BYRON E. BRADY, Director.
Mr. BRADY. She concurs in our views of the Job Corps center.
Chairman PERKINS. I entertain your viewpoint, and had a similar
conservation center in my district, with a huge, great capital invest-
ment, and it was operating at about the same expenditure per enrollee,
and that was closed right out of the blue sky.
I am hopeful that Congress will take action to do something about
these camps.
The next gentleman is Mr. Monroe, the West Virginia Director of
the Office of Economic Opportunity.
STATEMENT OP FEFP MONROE, DIRECTOR, WEST VIRGINIA OFFICE
OF ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY
Mr. MONROE. The only thing I can say about the program in West
Virginia, and, as I view it, about 43/~ years ago, we were given the
opportunity to begin to do something in a State, as you know, which
has about one-third of its people in the category of poverty, as a result
of the automation of the mines and other bad things that happened
to us after World War II.
* At that time, we were given to believe that a heavy segment of our
people, who had not really been involved in any sort of opportunity
at that point would now have a chance to become part of things.
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2014
An amazing thing to me was the fact that I had naive feelings that
almost everyone was going to be happy about the notion, in dealing
with a very bad problem in West Virginia.
Unfortunately, it did not turn out that way, because the general
attitude of the people throughout our State was one which was mostly
negative toward poverty programs.
Having spent about 43'~ years now at what might be classified
as a poverty ward, I am beginning to be a little bit tired. I think
the poor people are beginning to be a little bit tired of the way in
which we have had to operate, operate with i-year program, operate
without knowing from day to day whether or not WTe were going to be
funded again.
The most harried task in the world is to. be a community action
program director without any heavy support from the community,
because basically the community operates on the notion that people
who are not Working don't want to work, that people who are dirty
are bad, all of these other cliches about people.
So we never had the support for the poverty program, and the poor
people at this point are sitting around wondering what in the world
happened, and why it is we have to be constantly evaluated, moni-
tored, investigated by OEO, GAO, FBI, everybody you can think of
investigating them.
If we had the money used for investigating us, we could have
rebuilt some of West Virginia with it.
The poor people wonder, because they don't understand why all
of the agencies which have been around about them, which have
been part of making them poor, have never been investigated. There
is seemingly no real pressure from anywhere to see to it that agencies
that are supposed to take care of their ifis.
The beauty of the OEO program is that the poor people begin to
think you know we have been done for, done to, and done in, and
now we are going to have a chance to maybe do something ourselves,
and then they have had to live with the kinds of criticism that have
come from everybody on all sides.
I just plead with the committee to somehow see to it that we
could get about 4 or 5 years of an opportunity to do the job.
You cannot do a job when everybody on God's green earth is on
your back constantly. Somehow, it should be worked out that poor
people are given a chance to do the things they have indicated in a
great many instances they can do. They can change things.
They are at the point now where they are thinking in terms of
building their OWTII cooperative industries, doing something about
southern West Virginia, particularly where we have had a loss of
population.
We are the only State in the Union that still has a loss in population.
Our people have to go to Chicago or Detroit, and those people don't
tell us they want us.
We are getting ready to do something at home, if we could just
have a little bit of time and leniency to do it.
About the role of the States: I cannot see any reason for changing
the present system, as far as what States can do. I think the State
agency ought to be the coordinating agency.
I do not see the necessity for a heavy source of power being in the
State with OEO programs.
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2015
Personally, if 1 might just add a note, I cannot see why any Governor
wants to get involved in OEO programs. He loses politically every
time he does it He is going to make somebody mad if he is for it,
and he is going to make somebody. mad if he is against it. If I were
Governor, I would not have anything to do with it at all. I would
blame it on the regional office, but continue the coordinating business.
I am appreciative of the fight I see you waging as you try to make
some sense of our present situation, and hopefully you can come
through with a decent bill to do some good things for us.
Chairman PERKINS. Thank you.
Mi Collins, did you want to make a statement?
Mr. COLLINS. I would like to introduce Mr. Allen.
It is an honor for all of us from Texas that we have Bob Allen, who is
director of our Texas Economic Opportunity there. He served under
two outstanding Governors, Governor Connally and Governor Smith.
The fact that he is carrying on the program has given us a continuity,
and we believe in Texas we have had a most successful program, and a
lot of it is due to the fact that we have had such capable leaders.
We are honored that Mr. Allen is with us.
STATEMENT OP ROBERT ALLEN, DIRECTOR, TEXAS OPPICE OP
ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY
Mr. ALLEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
My prepared testimony has been distributed, and I will elaborate
on it.
Chairman PERKINS. Without objection, all of the prepared state-
ments will be inserted in the record.
(Prepared statement of Mr. Allen follows:)
PREPARED STATEMENT OF BOB G. ALLEN, DIRECTOR, TEXAS OFFICE OF ECONOMIC
OPPORTUNITY
Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee, I appreciate this opportunity to
present testimony relative to the Economic Opportunity Act. While I probably
fall far short of being an expert, I can speak from four years of experience as a
field man for the Texas Office charged with assisting communities and state
agencies in the initial implementation of the programs made possible by that Act,
and as Director of that Office. I have viewed firsthand our successes and failures
and have some sensitivity to the factors leading to both.
Without taking more of your time than is absolutely necessary I would like to
relate to each major title of the Act, with special emphasis on the role of the
State to-date, as well as needs for improving this role. My statements are my own,
but they are made with the approval of my Governor and conditioned by the
positions of key state agency officials, legislative leaders, local public officials,
and private leadership at all levels in Texas. My statements take into full consider-
ation the need for involvement of the poor in both identifying need, and in designing
and implementing programs. In addition my beliefs are reinforced by exposure,
as a member of the Executive Committee of the National Council of State OEO
Directors, to the experiences of other states as related to me by my counterparts
theoughout the nation.
Job Corps has been of tremendous value in Texas in providing for the rehabilita-
tion of youth, and I believe we can proudly give credit for our award winning
centers to the leadership of the Governor and the ability and dedication of the
state agency officials and private industry leadership who joined together to
design these centers, and who supported them during their critical developmental
phase and even to this date. We consider these facilities as the institution with the
greatest promise for meeting the special needs of the great numbers of uneducated,
untrained, unemployable, disadvantaged youth of Texas.
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2016
However, I should point out that after four years of unqualified success, these
centers are still officially considered to be both federally funded and operated
facifities, and required to serve youth from large areas of the entire nation. No
opportunity has been afforded the State to develop a plan for effectively integrat-
ing this facility into the state systems that are faced with providing a broad range
of special services to this same category of needy youth. We would welcome the
opportunity to create a task force to help us take this next step, from a laboratory
to an operational program, and probably could direct considerable state support
intosuch a "state" system. Certainly such an effort should take into consideration
tremendous potential of the inner city skifi centers, if such a program is to be
implemented. We have enjoyed a good working relationship with OEO in this
endeavor, but truly believe we are ready to assume more responsibility.
Neighborhood Youth Corps, Mainstream, New Careers, Special Impact and
Comprehensive Employment Program funds have been well administered in Texas
except from the standpoint of coordination with state resources. Regrettably,
but probably without choice, the Labor Department has seen fit to utilize a re-
gional to local planning and implementation process. While the State has been
offered the opportunity to cooperate with local grantees, and this we have tried
to do, there has been no significant response by the Bureau of Work Training
Programs or the Manpower Administration to requests that they cooperate with
the State in an effort to coordinate work experience with the vocational training
program we have emphasized increasingly over the past few years. I believe you
will agree that such an attitude indeed dampens the enthusiasm of state agency
heads and state legislators for commiting matching state funds and resources to
any all-out, long-range effort.
The State ~of Texas has placed strong emphasis in the past few years on the
need for developing viable dynamic governmental instrumentalities that are both
responsive to the needs of all our citizens, and yet politically responsible. A recent
award by the Department of Housing and Urban Development for excellence in
coordination is one evidence of the success this emphasis has produced.
* The Community Action Agency or the~ concept, as stated in the Economic
Opportunity Act, as amended, can and should be a vital part of any such system,
and I can't overemphasize the word "system." Effectively implemented, the
CAA can be that part of our system of government that guarantees effective
input by the poor into our entire governmental process, whether it relates to
Model Cities, city council business, or national legislative processes. To-date
there has been a tendency on the part of OEO to clutch the CAA protectively
to its breast and teach it how to respond to the OEO system only.
I cannot deny that OEO may have been at least partially justified in its pro-
tective instinct to insulate its young organizations from the remainder of the
system of government. With some notable exceptions, this was a new concept
and few knew for a year or two how the average state, county or city would accept
this new, artificially produced, member of the family. However, (and I believe
Congress in its wisdom saw this in 1967), these organizations have been measured
and judged as being both needed and desirable in the majority of our communities.
I believe you will find most states vitally interested in their further development
and integration into our system of government.
In my estimation, there is a pattern of state support of this program throughout
the nation. I believe the recent communications from the Governors to the Vice
President, through the National Governors' Conference, indicated full support
of the need for continuing and expanding the program. From California to Texas
to North Carolina, Governors supported the Community Action Agency.
However, as Mr. Byerly's letter indicated, there was a general dissatisfaction
with the administration of the program by the Office of Economic Opportunity,
and a deep belief that the present language authorizing OEO to consider proposals
by the States must be replaced by language requiring OEO to encourage and give
maximum consideration to state concerns, proposals, and even block grants where
guidelines were met and capability evidenced.
The resolutions passed by the Executive Committee of the National State OEO
Directors Conference on February 18 and April 16 support such a partnership with
the States, and specifically support the Byerly letter to the Vice President as an
accurate and positive document.
In Texas in the early stages of implementation we enjoyed a very productive
working relationship with the Washington OEO staff charged with the administra-
tion of those funds for meeting the special needs of migrants. Tremendous break-
throughs were accomplished at both the State and local level in not only securing
support for programs at all levels, but also in actuaUy operating education and
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2017
training projects for migrant adults and children, and in securing State legislation
and funds for such efforts.
Regrettably, a familiar pattern has since developed, and through fund cuts, late
fundings and special conditions to the grant, the State was reduced from the role of a
coordinating entity to that of "just another grantee," and funds were diverted to
selected, easily manipulated private organizations and into national contracts that
cannot be coordinated at the State or local level.
State agencies in Texas have a commitment and a capability to serve migrants,
whether it be in the area of health, education, training or employment. State
dollars are appropriated and being used for these purposes. The OEO funds
are desperately needed to help us fulfill our present commitments. You and
your Committee should consider legislative language that precludes this dilution
of resources and provides a firm commitment to the States that will allow them
to present effective plans for meeting the needs of migrant citizens.
The VISTA program presents another type of problem that can best be brought
into focus by questions. Must the VISTA project, even though charged to work
closely with the poor, meet the basic requirement to fit into a well defined problem
area within a comprehensive local plan to eliminate poverty, or is the VISTA
a shock trooper with no allegiance other than to his or her regional office project
officer? In Texas we have supported VISTA, with good results, where the former
was the case. We have resisted VISTA, where the latter was the case. No doubt
you have read of the disastrous results in those cases where outside direction
produced conflict, confrontation and great damage to the CAAs and local struc-
tures that sought to operate within realistic perimeters.
If VISTA is to enjoy full success, State and local government must be given
some statutory assurances that their sponsorship of these projects will carry
the authority to actually operate the programs, rather than to "allow" Regional
OEO Offices to operate them in their community. To permit periodic evaluation,
the present "open ended" approval must be replaced by annual approval. VISTA
has a very special mission. However, it is inconceivable that it must have absolute
freedom in order to accomplish its mission.
In closing I would simply emphasize three points, and while I speak as a State
OEO Director from Texas, I believe these points would apply in most states.
First, I would say that there is indisputable evidence that the States fully
support the commitment made to the poor of this nation by Congress in 1964,
and are prepared to accept a partnership role with the federal government in
fulfilling this commitment.
Secondly, I would say to you that, the State of Texas, while not possessing each
and every capability to pursue the goals stated in that commitment, does have
the capability to administer significant portions of these programs in a more
administratively efficient and programmatically effective manner than they are
presently being administered.
Lastly, I would emphasize that the State of Texas would welcome the oppor-
tunity to participate in planning for the execution of various titles of this Act.
This must be done immediately. In addition the State seeks the opportunity to
develop and present plans for state administration of those programs designed for
implementation at the state and/or local level.
Mr. Chairman, let me thank you once again for this opportunity. May God
guide you and your committeein yOur deliberations.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead, Mr. Allen.
Mr. ALLEN. I would start off by echoing the concerns of Mr.
Brady and Mr. Monroe.
We desperately need this program. We need every feature of this
program. We do need continuity in the program. Certainly this is
something that hampers us at the State level in helping this program to
become integrated into the fabric and fiber of governmental and
private processes.
Chairman PERKINS. What do you think the duration of the next
bill ought to be?
Mr. ALLEN. I am certainly an administrator, and not a Congress-
man, but as an administrator, certainly a long-range minimum of
2 years, hopefully more appropriations would be most helpful, and at
all levels, I think.
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2018
I would make this statement right off: In Texas, and I think in
the southwest region, we have encountered considerable difficulty in
even taking advantage of the short appropriations that we have had.
This has stemmed in part, or to a considerable degree, from either the
inability or the unwillingness of the Office of Economic Opportunity
to go into a partnership arrangement with the States.
In my testimony, I think you will see that I have suggested that
this should be a partnership arrangement, and it can be, and I think
I speak for most States in saying this, and certainly for Texas.
In the Job Corps, I think we can take considerable credit in Texas,
the State government can, and the Governors can, for the success of
our Job Corps facilities, and I deeply appreciate the fact that you and
your committee staff saw it as vital to visit our center recently. I
hope that you saw everything that we were doing there.
You know, we feel a need for this facility.
We have had good cooperation with the Office of Economic Oppor-
tunity in developing this center. I think it is significant that we have,
because this was one instance where because of the language of the
act, and quite frankly because of certain political considerations, the
State was able to assume full leadership in assisting OEO to meet the
goals the Congress had defined for it in the establishment of this center.
The Governor was able to pull in a large number of the top indus-
trialists, he was helpful in designing educational facilities, and we
were able to develop this in close cooperation with the staff of OEO
charged with implementing this.
The results have been quite good. I wish we had these opportunities
in other areas of the program.
In the Neighborhood Youth Corps, ~\`1ainstream, comprehensive
employment programs have been well administered in Texas by the
Labor Department.
We are not at all satisfied with the pattern whereby we have been
allowed to cooperate with a packaged program. Certainly we have
tried. As we had been informed of what programs were envisioned, in
the implementation stage, we have tried to bring together State and
local leadership to work with these programs, and we think we have
been successful in this.
However, we would have liked to have been afforded an opportunity
to sit down at the drawing board stage and work with these agencies,
and see how we could in effect lay them on the table with State
resources, put vocational training funds with Neighborhood Youth
Corps funds, and so on. We think this could be done very effectively.
Sometimes we resent the fact that they say this is a good idea, but
these funds are allocated to the community, and we cannot stop at
this point in time and allow State involvement.
Again, I don't criticize what I consider to be my counterparts in
the Labor Department for this. I don't know that they had much of
a chance.
The community action program, whether it be the surveys that we
make with local government, whether they be the indications which
were received recently by the Vice President from Governors, the
indicators are across the board that community action is needed,
that we are somewhere on the right track here, that the community
action agency can be the mechanism at the commumty level, the
target in the neighborhood level, where the poor can be brought
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2019
together in a viable way which will help them in determining how
their needs are met.
We need to give more consideration to the community action
agency as a single mechanism, rather than proliferating into model
cities, advisory committees, and this sort of thing.
It is significant that the State, including the Labor Department,
HUD, and others are seeking to assure when a model cities program
is implemented, the community action agency is looked to first for
the target area involved. It is strange that OEO and HUD have not
been able to get together on this.
The only initial agreement that was worked out in the community
between the community action agency and the model cities organiza-
tion before the planning processes were actually passed were accom-
plished by our office, so we do have a capability here, and we would
like to utilize it more.
If you get into migrant programs, you know something of the
fantastic problem we have in Texas, providing for our migrant
citizens, and certainly we need tremendous assistance there, and
we have sought every dollar that was available under the Economic
Opportunity Act for education, training, health services for migrants.
In the beginning, we thought we had an understanding with the
Office of Economic Opportunity that they would work with us and
our office, and as long as we could produce and bring together the
various elements in the State to focus on the problems of the migrant,
they would recognize this capability.
We started, we think, a fairly well-defined multipronged program to
meet the needs of the migrant child. We did secure in this instance
significant sums of State money to throw into a special education
program for migrant children. After a year or so, a decision was made
they might be better off going to independent proj ects.
The funds now have been whittled away each year at the home
base cycle for the migrant, at a time when it became almost impossible
that they have to remain at the home base to do something with these
individuals in basic education and training. This has been a sort of
difficulty.
We are not proud of the accomplishments of this program, because
3 months instead of 6 months limits it.
We received a criticism from OEO recently which we don't think
is justified.
When the Green amendment was passed, the Governor and .1
prepared a letter to go in to all Community Action agencies, all public
officials, city and county, and we suggested under the Green amend-
ment there were three alternatives they should consider at this time.
We offered our assistance in considering each of them.
One was the local government might indeed choose to designate
itself as the community action agency. It was suggested if they did
so, they should find a way to utilize the existing organization.
We then suggested another alternative, that they might want to
designate the existing organization as a community action agency.
Then, as a third alternative, it was suggested that they were not
required to do anything.
Chairman PERKINS. Did you mail that to all of the community
action agencies, and hopefully the city and county governments
throughout Texas?
PAGENO="0588"
2020
Mr. ALLEN. County governments where we had county govern-
ments, and city governments where we had populations of 250,000.
Chairman PERKINS. In most instances they elected not to take
over, but let the existing community action agencies go ahead, the way
they had in the past?
Mr. ALLEN. That has been the history.
I don't agree with Mr. Yankowicz's finding that in simply every
instance they felt the community action agency was obviously the best
institution to do it. In many instances it was influenced by past deal-
ings with the regional office of the Office of Economic Opportunity
saying in effect, "You may try to take it over, but we will make it
difficult for you."
This is an exaggeration to some degree, but this has existed in some
local governments in many instances.
Chairman PERKINS. You don't know whether the Attorney Gen-
eral in your State ruled that the local governments, the county govern-
ments only had no power or authority to act as community action
agencies?
Mr. ALLEN. There was an Attorney General's ruling to this effect.
However, this was after most of the local governments had already
made their decision.
Chairman PERKINS. The local governments that you know any-
thing about, where they did not take over, the municipal governments
elected to let the existing community action agencies carry on?
Mr. ALLEN. Yes. Most of the decisions had been made before the
Attorney General's ruling had come out.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead.
Mr. ALLEN. Again, let me just simply say that I think the State
can perform a very vital role in making a community action agency
even more legitimate than it is. We are willing to do this. We have
supported it for 4 years. We have organized most of them.
My office has focused on holding workshops throughout the State,
bringing together the community action agency with State govern-
ment, State supervisors,, the local supervisors, the local workers,
together with the community action agencies to help them develop a
viable working relationship. We think this has been successful and
worthwhile. We are informed by the community action agency that is.
We are quite amazed at the effect it has on the State agencies, once
they have an opportunity to come together and establish a working
relationship with the community action agency, especially in develop-
ing a rapport between the community action agency staff at the local
level and the State agency staff. They find a way to work together,
once this is done.
We will continue in this role as well as we can.
As I say in my statement, the majority of our VISTA program has
been very successful, and we recognize the special role for VISTA. We
recognize that VISTA has a special job to do.
We have not had good success in those instances where the VISTA
was sent there in an independent capacity, with no regard for the local
efforts to eliminate proverty. We have had a few instances of this type,
two very early in the program, two quite recently, and the incidents
have been quite destructive of the overall local processes that the
community action agency has been able to engineer, and in each of
these instances the community action agency has had grave concern
PAGENO="0589"
2021
about VISTA being sent in without any responsibility to the com-
munity action agencies, so we do have some concerns here.
I think I would probably be repeating much of what I have in my
statement, but I would say, I hope what 1 say here, and what I have
said in my statement is not construed as a lack of support of the
poverty program.
We think we see some ways where the States could assist in making
this program more effective. We would like to have this opportunity,
whether simply the result of a directive that came down from the
director for the regional office to consider proposals that we might
have.
Where I am fearful on the basis of past experience that such direc-
tives might depend too much on the personalities concerned, and not
allow us the type of continuity that is needed, we are hopeful maybe
there could be legislation stating that the director will offer the States
the opportunity to present plans.
I don't think we would recommend en bloc grant State programs
be turned over to the State lock, stock, and barrel, as you said.
We see ways of working in different phases of this program. We
see ways of really making it an integral part of our processes at the
local level and at the State level. We would like to have this oppor-
tunity to work with OEO to move in this direction.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Collins, do you have any questions?
Mr. COLLINS. Yes.
About this partnership, I am a strong believer in the States rights
concept, delegation to States, and you are talking about partnership
concept, here.
How far would you think it could be efficiently carried forward,
both as to responsibility and origination of programs and control of
the finances at the State level, or what part should be done at the
Federal level?
Mr. ALLEN. Certainly the Office of Economic Opportunity has a
unique ability to lead, and to innovate in this area.
After all, the programs that I am talking about here, that we have
some ideas on, were 4 years ago innovation.
So, in this particular area, I would hope that the Office of Economic
Opportunity would be allowed to move ahead in this area, and at the
same time, though, I think I can say at least in Texas, and I think in
most States, many of these programs are well past the innovative stage.
We don't think, in other words, that there has been any considerable
public reaction against the program. The reactionswe have had have
been against a particular piece of administration of the program.
So, I think I would be hard pressed to say to you, Congressman~
that we would like to see the States take over the programs to any
particular degree. In other words, I think that should we be advised
and even encouraged to participate more fully in this program, to
moblize State resources, to go through our legislatures, and if there
were strong indications from the Office of Economic Opportunity that
they would cooperate with us in such endeavors, and put OEO money
where the State money is, I would then have something I could take
to the State legislature and give them some assurances that all of our
efforts would not be in vain.
However, if I made a strong push in the migrant program to get
matching funds there, we would have been holding the bag, and in a
PAGENO="0590"
2022
very short time the State would have had no money to finance any
programs.
Without some assurances that I can take to our legislators-Mr.
Brady was very fortunate to have the type of cooperation with the
regional office that constituted his experience-there was experience
there, and they could work out this arrangement, where State matching
funds could be used effectively in this fashion.
We have not had this to a sufficient degree in Texas, to be able to
assure our leadership in Texas that they can indeed count on the part-
nership of OEO.
Mr. CoLLINs. In Texas, I think the Job Corps has been much more
successful, in Texas, as compared with the rest of the country. Why
have they been so successful?
Mr. ALLEN. I will start off giving Congress and OEO and the Job
Corps credit.
I think the key to the success of this particular facility was Governor
Connally was able to pull together representatives of 100 of the leading
industries in Texas, which knew not only how to train these young-
sters, but had the capability to hire them when they were finished.
He was able to pull together the group with the Texas education
agency, to sit down and design an overall program to puii together
the other State programs that would be recruiting youngsters, placing
them, and so forth, and in effect we were able to work with OEO and
with the various elements in the State to put together a complete
program, and a program that had some continuity to it, and we are
quite proud of it.
Mr. COLLINS. President Nixon made a statement for his adminis-
tration. He was concerned with taking the best programs and building
with them, and taking those programs in which we have not made
any progress, and gradually phasing them out.
Certainly we cannot be an outstanding success in every program.
Which programs in this general field of activity do you think have not
been successful?
Mr. ALLEN. If you go title by title in the act, I don't know of any
that have not been successful, because each program is successful on
the basis of how we were able to put it together and implement it at
the local level.
So whereas one community may have had a very successful com-
munity action agency, another community may have had poor success
with a community action agency, and I think this is due in some
degree to the pressures which Mr. Monroe talked about. They have
not been allowed to settle down and get to work.
I think I would turn around, and I know this is not all OEO's fault,
and I know tremendous pressure comes in to Congress to do a multi-
tude of things, and I think the community action agencies have been
required to operate too many programs, to go in too many different
directions, and they have not been allowed to settle down to the
business of mobilizing the poor, mobilizing local resources, and put
together an operating program.
As I said in the beginning, Congressman, I don't see any of these
programs that cannot be made successful.
Mr. COLLINS. Let me give you an example. What about VISTA?
I heard of a program where they injected this into a political type
action program. Is that done any more?
PAGENO="0591"
2023
Mr. ALLEN. Our overall experience with VISTA. has been good.
One reason it has been good is that we have insisted whenever possible
that before the Governor would approve a VISTA project, this project
had to have a well-defined role. We knew what the role of VISTA
was. At the same time, the VISTA project had to have a relationship
to the overall coordinated local effort to eliminate poverty.
We felt it accomplishes nothing to go out and get a neighborhood
group aroused if you don't have a mechanism in which they can work.
We have had them working constructively.
We have had several instances where the VISTA was put in there
admittedly because the community action agency was not doing
things fast enough.
Sometimes I tend to take this approach, but at the same time, it
is a very destructive process, and instead of improving a community
action agency process, sometimes it has almost destroyed it.
We have been able to come back in some communities simply
because the regional office staff did respond to our concerns, and did
succeed in getting the VISTA program integrated with the other
programs.
Mr. COLLINS. Thank you, Mr. Allen, and thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Buckley, do you have any questions?
]\`Ir. BUCKLEY. I know you have spent more time, Mr. Allen, in
indicating to the committee that there could be greater and more
meaningful involvement of the States. Could you be a little more
specific as to how the. States could be more involved, without a block
grant approach?
Where in the grant formula, or grant process, or the proposal
submission would you bring the States in and have your involvement?
Mr. ALLEN. I suppose an example would be as good as any.
I think we have to recognize that in each State we have a Governor
who has . established an Office of Economic Opportunity somewhere
within the sphere of. his influence. In working with this unit, when a
program is available to the State, and guidelines are made available,
he can in turn puli together a task force of State-level people to con-
* sider the overall needs in this particular area, to use the example, say,
of the 3(b) migrant funds that are available.
Supposedly, some 40 percent of the funds appropriated might very
well be directed into Texas, since this is where 40 percent of the mi-
grants are.
In the beginning, it appeared we would have such an opportunity to
pull together a State-level team with the peopTh operating programs,
and who have the education and training, and so forth, to sit down and
see what additional we needed to do to meet the particular needs of the
migrants, how we could design special programs, how we could add on
to existing programs, how we could get at this very difficult job.
Given this opportunity to work in close concert with the Office of
Economic Opportunity, I think we can develop programs, a plan that
we could submit for operation of a particular program.
It might be for all of the migrant funds in the State, it might be for
simply a portion of the migrant funds available to the State.
But for the past two and a half years, I would say, we have been told
in effect that this is not the way, that all of these funds are destined
for the communities as much as possible, and therefore the OEO
field types have gone to the community, and have elicited applications
PAGENO="0592"
2024
here, and they have some good programs. I don't say the funds are
being misused, but it does not allow us to integrate the 3(b) funds with
the $3 million of State funds we have just appropriated for adult
education.
In other words, 10 percent of our poor are migrants. Certainly we
could put at least 10 percent of that $3 million with that migrant funds
would be available from OEO for a more comprehensive program~ So
we would like this opportunity.
But by the same token-and we do this from time to time, and we
develop a plan and proposal, but it is very difficult to get full support
when all I can say to the State agency head is: "I cannot assure you
this wifi be given any consideration."
Mr. BUCKLEY. You are talking about a State plan, then, at least
for a particular portion of the Economic Act?
Mr. ALLEN. Yes.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Have you gone so far as to submit a detailed plan
for this program to regional OEO, or Washington headquarters, and
had it rejected?
Mr. ALLEN. No.
Mr. BUCKLEY. You have not actually submitted one in writing
which has been considered and then turned down?
Mr. ALLEN. Not for an overall administration of the war on poverty
in Texas, and for all of its facets.
Mr. RADCLIFFE. I am Minority Counsel for Education.
I don't quite understand the testimony. Let me ask you, in terms of
migrant education in Texas, is not the State in a better position to
know what your total problem is, and how you might approach it
in the individual communities?
Mr.' ALLEN. It is our problem, yes; and obviously we have had
some experience in this area in education, health, in many areas.
Mr. RADCLIFFE. I am not talking about just some experience. Is
not the State education agency in a better position than any individual
community to assess the total needs of the State in Texas, in terms of
your migrant problem?
Mr. ALLEN. Yes; they have the systems to deliver these services to
the migrants.
Mr. RADCLIFFE. Then why would it be such an extraordinary
suggestion that the funds available for migrant education in Texas
be channeled through the State, to the State education, agency, with
a State plan for the utilization' of these funds to combat your total
migrant education problem, as the' State government sees it in Texas?
That is a pattern of Federal aid that we have had since 1917.
Mr. ALLEN. I thmk this would be by far the most effective way to
meet the need of migrants in Texas.
Mr. RADCLIFFE. I don't mean to be as argumentative as I sound, but
why in the world don't you testify to that, and why don't you just say
that?
Mr. ALLEN. There is a `history here, and maybe I should have stated
a little more of the history. ,`
We did submit quite extensive proposals in the early stages, and we
received large funding for a migrant children's program, which we
combined with `State funds and set up 40 schools for migrant children.
Later, this was funded by the Elementary and Secondary Education
Act,' so' these funds were withdrawn for use by the State.
PAGENO="0593"
2025
We developed and submitted a plan for adult migrant basic educa-
tion and vocational training. In the first year, we received fairly early
funding. We were funded about a month after the migrants came back,
and the program went fairly well after the first year. I think in some
30 school districts throughout the State they had facilities for training.
But we were told the next year there was no money for vocational
training. The funds were cut each year. We applied for more each year,
because we had more facilities.
Mr. RADCLIFFE. You applied to whom?
Mr. ALLEN. To OEO, the national office, for funds, but in each
following year, the funds were received by late in December, or we
were able to actually commence the program sometime around the
first of the year.
Our migrants return in September and October, and they start
leaving in March and April. It is very difficult to develop any type
of significant program in that period of time.
Mr. RADCLIFFE. I am not being critical, but I am probing into the
character of your response to an earlier question. Coming in here late,
I get the impression you are saying that there is something unique
about this poverty program, that the State of Texas as a State some-
how is not capable of administering it as a State.
Mr. BRADY. May I respond to that?
I don't take the same tack. I would say in the State of Washington,
we do have a sizable migrant population there, as well, that tradi-
tionally the State educational agencies and the local educational
agencies have been insensitive to the educational needs of migrants.
In one particular community about 2 years ago, and there has not
been substantial change since then, we asked the local community
action agency, and the Washington Citizens for Migrant Affairs asked
the school district how many migrant children do you have in the
school now, and the answer was very few, if any.
We got a citizen group of parents to poll that school, and found that
there were 150 migrant children in that school system at that time, in
and out of it, and there was no recognition of the fact that these were
migrant children, with special needs of mobile, ethnic groups in that
that school district, and unfortunately, that is rather common.
Mr. RADCLIFFE. What State are you from?
Mr. BRADY. Washington.
Mr. RADCLIFFE. What about your Governor and State government
and legislature? Are they insensitive to the migrant problems?
Mr. BRADY. They are becoming more sensitive, because the
Governor established a program composed 50 percent of farm people.
The State department of public instruction asked for an appropriation
of $8 million, specifically for disadvantaged an miniority programs.
The Governor, because of budget probeims I think, was willing to
go along with $4 million.
It is astounding, the lack of ability of local school districts to come
up with any meaningful programs, well defined programs, for education
for disadvantaged people.
OEO, community action, the migrant branch of OEO, the 3(b)
programs I think are absolutely essential to break any new ground in
educational programs for ethnic groups.
27-754-69-pt 3-38
PAGENO="0594"
2026
Mr. RADCLIFFE. Once you have the Federal funds, is it your
testimony that those are better channeled from Washington through
local agencies without a significant State involvement?
Mr. BRADY. I would not say it should be one way or the other.
However, I do favor initial programs, special programs, pilot proj ects
being directed to citizen organizations, with the established educational
agency and its administrative capabilities brought in as they respond
positively to those programs.
Mr. RADCLIFFE. Brought in by whom? You said you were in favor
of the local educational agency being brought in. By whom?
Mr. BRADY. By the local citizen group, and through the influence
of the State office of economic opportunity, and the State department
of education.
Mr. RADCLIFFE. The chairman is very generous with the staff, but
I do not understand the witness's testimony.
What you have to look for in legislation at the national level, as you
would at the State level, are explicit directions. Somebody is respon-
sible; either your State is responsible, and has a responsible role, and
you spell that out in the legislation, or it is not responsible and is
brought in only as the Office of Economic Opportunity or the Office of
Education, or what other Federal agency happens to be involved,
brings it in.
I was trying just to sharpen the testimony to see what you are
suggesting, because coming in late, I had not understood really what
Mr. Allen was testifying to, because it seems to me if you are going
to have a responsible State role, then it has to be spelled out in this
legislation, and I defy anybody to go through the Economic Oppor-
tunity Act and find the State role. You will not find it in the legislation.
If a State role is there, it is there by the grace of the Federal
bureaucracy.
Mr. BRADY. There is extensive opportunity for the State to play a
significant role, and in the State of Washington we feel we have done
that.
I also believe if you had to clearly state all migrant education pro-
grams will be run by the existing educational system or by OEO and
its local community action agencies, and its delegate program, if I
had to choose one way or the other, I would say for migrant education
programs, let OEO run them; they will be much more effective.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Mr. Chairman, we will defer to Mrs. Green in
questioning the State directors.
Chairman PERKINS. Let me ask one question, and I will call on
Mrs. Green.
I would like to hear the comments of the gentleman from West
Virginia on the part you feel the States should play in administering
the poverty program. Do you feel the State should go further than they
have gone at present?
Mr. MONROE. There are two ways a State has any power at all,
and one is in its relationship with the OEO regional office, and the
other is the power the Governor has through his veto. These are the
two primary powers.
Lately, we have the form 77 to fill out, which indicates to the
regional office as to how we feel about a program. We have not had
any maj or difficulty with the regional office, because we have kept
some sort of lines of communications open.
PAGENO="0595"
2027
Maybe we have been fortunate in having a good regional office. We
have had our arguments, but they were honest sort of arguments
that where somehow we made the thing work before it was over with.
I think that the main thing that our office has been willing to admit
all along is that OEO has the keys to the smokehouse. Therefore, we
are the arm of their activity, and we tried to be an arm, and not be
the head or the brains or anything else but be the arm that helped
do a job.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with Mr. Brady, that to some degree
some of the programs that have come on to the local scene, bypassing
State government in many cases, this has been best, because the
State had all of those problems for a long time, and they never did
do very much about them.
Now that something new has come on the scene, it has revived the
State's enthusiasm to do something. At the present time, it has been
a most fortunate situation to have the Federal Government through
its congressional action giving us some help in that regard..
Chairman PERKINS. Mrs. Green.
Mrs. GREEN. I am sorry I was not here for your testimony. I would
have liked to have heard it.
I think someone said the only opportunity the State had was by
the grace of the Federal bureaucracy. I would say the Federal Govern-
ment and OEO have not had much grace or charity. They have done
possibly everything~ they could to discourage a State.
In my judgment, I think the OEO has been in direct violation of
the law. They assume unto themselves not only. the right to imple-
ment the law, but to make the law, because the amendments adopted
in 1967 said the State or political division or subdivision of a State
might be designated as a community action agency. OEO overruled
that amendment immediately; they would not designate any State
as a community action agency, in spite of the action of the Congress.
Mr. MONROE. We have in our State law a statement which says
that no community action agency. will be a recognized community
action agency in the State of West Virginia unless it is recognized by
the Governor.
I don't know whether that is any sort of counteraction, but no
program can take place in West Virginia unless it has the action of
the Governor.
Mrs. GREEN. How long has that been in effect?
Mr. MONROE. It has been in effect ever since it started. It was
soon after the OEO legislation came out. The next time our State
legislature met-
Mrs. GREEN. This covers just the two in West Virginia?
Mr. MONROE. OEO has said that VISTA can only come in when the
Governor signs off on his program.
Mrs. GREEN. I wanted to turn to the gentleman from Washington
and ask you to explain to me the ruling of the attorney general of the
State of Washington. I never quite understood it, that they did not
allow the amendment to title 12 to take effect there.
Mr. BRADY. I will try, Mrs. Green.
When the 1967 amendments were passed, the State enabling
legislation that was in existence at that time was passed previously,
in 1965, and said the Governor and counties may do whatever is
necessary to participate in the Economic Opportunity Act of 1964.
PAGENO="0596"
2028
Since local political jurisdictions derived their total authority from
the State government, a question arose, the prosecuting attorney
from Yakima County asked the State attorney general for his opinion
as to that county assuming authority of the local community action
agency.
He ruled since the legislature did not give the local subdivisions
the authority to participate in the Economic Opportunity Act as
amended in 1967, that they did not have that authority. This ruling
stood.
In this session of the legislature which is now in special session, a bill
was introduced, which our office wrote at the request of a number of
legislators, where it would expand the legislation to cover cities as well
as counties, and would be in compliance with the amendments of 1967.
This bifi passed the House of Representatives, was introduced the
last day of the regular session of the Senate, was stalled at that point,
went back to committee, and since has died in committee.
All that was inserted w~s the phrase, "as amended in 1967." The
Senate has now killed that bill by not passing it out of the Rules
Committee.
Consequently, local political jurisdictions in the State of Washing-
ton stifi may not sponsor community action agencies.
For practical purposes, I think, and this is only a guesstimate based
upon experience, only about two political jurisdictions would have
assumed the sponsorship of the community action agencies
in the State, and we have 21 community action agencies, plus seven
Indian community action agencies.
Mrs. GREEN. How do you assume only that?
Mr. BRADY. We received new communications from two county
commissioners indicating they would like to. One would stifi like to.
However, one county was a detriment to that bifi, and they had it
stalled in committee~ Otherwise, it would have passed.
I assume there is room for another request from a prosecuting
attorney for another opinion of the new Attorney General, at this
point, and it could change.
I don't know what protocol is there.
Mrs. GREEN. The truth and justice and virtue shifted with the
change in the administration?
Mr. BRADY. I do believe that local government generall~r has
played a very positive role in economic opportunity programs in the
State, under the existing legislation, and that they wifi continue to do
so.
Mrs. GREEN. What was there in the 1967 act that was different
than 1965-just that the county or the city would have the authority
to carry out the OEO program; is that it?
Mr. BRADY. I have always had difficulty defining that, too. Do
you mean the State or the Federal?
Mrs. GREEN. In carrying out a CAA.
Mr. BRADY. I had always assumed local political jurisdictions
could become the sponsors of the community action agencies and in
one case in the Bremerton area they did and they had a board which
met all of the OEO guidelines, and recently they were forced to in-~
corporate because of the Attorney General's opinion; so they couldn't
get their new grants until they incorporated.
PAGENO="0597"
2O29~
Mrs. GREEN. It sounds to me like there is an OEO official in
the woodpile.
Mr. BRADY. I sincerely feel and I testified earlier, I feel that both
State and local government can play a very positive role in economic
opportunity programs under the existing legislation. We have excellent
working relationships with the regions and we have maintained our
rapport in the local governments.
Mrs. GREEN. Did you three gentlemen come out in opposition to
State involvement? If we gave the State more authority, we certainly
would have to change the language of title II so OEO personnel
downtown could not possibly change the effe6t or intention of the
law. We have to make it abundantly clear.
Mr. MONROE. I guess I came out against State role in the light
of the State being able to do their own programs or handle the moneys
that come into the State.
Mr. BRADY. Basically, Mrs. Green, I opposed the Federal OEO
giving direct authority or Congress separate authority to the State
unless the State assumes responsibility, and I mean direct, and by
that I mean cash appropriations, direct involvement which the State
of Washington has done.
Essentially I said the State should have and assume authority
in direct proportion to its assumption of responsibility.
Mrs. GREEN. Do you apply that same rule to the present CAP
agencies, that they should have authority in proportion to their
contributions in fund and responsibility?
Mr. BRADY. I believe local government should have the authority.
Mrs. GREEN. The responsibilities of the present CAP agencies
should be in proportion-exactly what you said about the State,
that it should have authority in proportion to its cash contribution
and involvement. Do you think that the same ground rule should
apply for the present CAP agencies-
Mr. BRADY. I differentiate between citizen organizations and
governmental units.
Mrs. GREEN. What are the governmental units made?
Mr. BRADY. Representatives of the people.
Mrs. GREEN. What are the community action agencies made up of?
Mr. BRADY. People.
Mrs. GREEN. They are not representatives of the people? Aren't
they elected or selected?
Mr. BRADY. Some are.
Mrs. GREEN. Aren't they in every single case?
Mr. BRADY. No.
Mrs. GREEN. Give me a case where any community action agency
is not made up of the representatives of the people?
Mr. BRADY. We have in our State complied so that the boards of
directors are elected and are representatives of the people. Neighbor-
hood councils may be individual neighborhood groups that form on
their own and are not elected.
Mrs. GREEN. You have that in the State. I am talking about the
governing group for a community action agency that is representative
of the people the same as the State is representative of the people.
Mr. BRADY. Much broader representative.
Mrs. GREEN. What is it?
Mr. BRADY. The community action agency.
PAGENO="0598"
2030
Mrs. GREEN. How many have turned out for elections? What
percentage?
Mr. BRADY. In Seattle they have run as high as 25 percent.
Mrs. GREEN. What kind of a voter turnout do you have when you
elect a Governor?
Mr. BRADY. In excess of that.
Mrs. GREEN. Then how do you conclude it is more representative
of the people in the community action agency than it is at the State
level?
Mr. BRADY. I believe I would have to say in this case that com-
munity action agencies are far more representative of low-income
people who are the beneficiaries of economic opportunity programs
than our local government or our State government.
Mrs. GREEN. What proof would you offer to document that case
besides your subjective judgment, any voting statistics?
Mr. BRADY. I think I could produce them. I don't have them on
hand.
Mrs. GREEN. Do you mean produce documentation about what
has happened in the past or something that you might arrange?
Mr. BRADY. I enjoy this and I appreciate the chairman and your
willingness to discuss it because I think it is a very key issue. I could
take a reverse trend and say, "Look at our State legislature and how
many of them represent the poor in proportion to the poverty popula-
tion of the State of Washington, and it is not adequate."
Mrs. GREEN. What are you recommending, that we elect repre-
sentatives, some of them to represent the poor and some to represent
the rich and some to represent the middle class and some to represent
the educated and some to represent the uneducated, is this a new
kind of democracy that they are going to have?
Mr. BRADY. I hope so. I hope we can improve the democratic
process through experimental programs such as community action
agency programs. I hope as a result of this program more people will
be interested in government, more people will be interested in serving,
that more low-income people wifi be interested in serving on school
boards.
Mrs. GREEN. I think your philosophy is slightly different than
mine when you prefer results from a 1 percent voter turnout to select
your representatives in a CAP over a general election in which you
may have 60 or 65 percent voter turnout.
I think this is the kind of philosophy that has brought CAP int&
disrepute across the country.
I have no more questions.
Chairman PERKINS. I think we ought to let the gentleman from the
great State of Texas and one of the directors comment on how the
amendment has worked in the state of Texas and whether or not the
local governments were given the opportunity to take over under the
Green amendment and just what happened after the Green amend-
ment, whether there was much change in the~ community action
programs and, if not, why not.
Go ahead, Mr. Allen.
Mr. ALLEN. It is dangerous. I don't speak for county government
in Texas, yet I have full knowledge of what happened in most of
these communities as they considered the Green amendment, and I
will say that in a goodly percentage, 25 or 30 percent of our communi-
PAGENO="0599"
2031
ties, commissioners courts, city councils, were very well satisfied with
their community action agencies and saw no reason to change same.
However, I think in each instance these courts felt like that this
was not necessarily the case and they would like to be in a position
to move in at such time as a program was not functioning satisfactorily
and make a change, not necessarily take it over, not necessarily
construct a new agency, but have some authority to see that these
public funds were used.
However, you will have to bear in mind that most of these local
governments had already had some considerable contact with the
Office of Economic Opportunity, and since there was not a clear
Attorney General's ruling at this point in time-most of them thought
they had the authority under the previous legislation and they had
to do 90 percent of the things that a community action agency is
supposed to do.
Having had this previous experience with the Office of Economic
Opportunity, they were not at all sure that they wanted to officially
exercise this designation of authority.
Chairman PERKINS. At what time did you and the Governor write
the letter in reference to the Attorney General's amendment to the local
community action agencies?
Mr. ALLEN. At what time did we write it?
Chairman PERKINS. Yes, sir. After the Green amendment was
enacted?
Mr. ALLEN.ThiS was 8 to 10 months after the Green amendment was
enacted that the Attorney General's ruling came down. Most of the
local courts had already made their decisions either to act or not to act.
Chairman PERKINS. What action did you and the Governor take
after the enactment of the Green amendment?
Mr. ALLEN. We sent letters to each of the commissioners courts
involved, the city councils and to the community action agencies
stating that under the amendment there seemed to be three clear
alternatives they should investigate and we would assist them in
looking at each of these:
One, that they should designate themselves as a CAA; two, that
they could designate the existing organizations; and three, that they
take no action.
Chairman PERKINS. Did you have much of a turnover or did the
community action agencies remain about the same, or did many
municipal governments takeover?
Mr. ALLEN. No, and as I was saying in most instances they felt
because they were quite sure about the community action agency, or
they had ascertained by this point in time even though they would
designate themselves, they would have little or no control over the
local policy program.
Chairman PERKINS. Did anybody in the Office of Economic Oppor-
tunity obstruct the path of the local governments from taking over in
Texas after the enactment of the Green amendment?
Mr. ALLEN. Not officially; there were many trips made to com-
munities to try to preclude this to happen.
Mrs. GREEN. Would the chairman yield?
Chairman PERKINS. Yes.
PAGENO="0600"
2032
Mrs. GREEN. You say OEO did not officially-
Mr. ALLEN. There was no official document mailed out of OEO to
community action agencies or to cities or counties urging against
cities or counties exercising their option.
Mrs. GREEN. Was the second part of your sentence that they did
make many trips to various parts to make sure this would happen?
Mr. ALLEN. Yes, I don't say this critically. The regional office
may be quite legitimately went to the community action agencies and
showed them how they could, in effect, maintain their present status.
I think this was perfectly legitimate because. I think in all reality
OEO can maybe work a little more easily directly with the private
organizations without having to go through local government.
I don't say this is the course that is going to get us there and attain
our long-range goals, but this is a political fact of life.
Our office took the philosophy that we should adviselocal government
of the green amendment and all of its implications and allow them to
exercise their option, hoping that when the smoke had cleared, that
everybody would be happy.
Chairman PERKINS. One question at this point: Do you know of
any local government in your State that was denied its right to
exercise its option to take over after the enactment of the Green
amendment?
Mr. ALLEN. By OEO?
Chairman PERKINS. Yes.
Mr. ALLEN. No; because by the time those who wished to become
CAA's had decided to exercise their option, the Attorney General's
ruling had come down, and they were not in a position to do so.
Chairman PERKINS. That applied only to the counties; not to the
cities?
Mr. ALLEN. At this point in time we have one city considering
taking over the CAA, but at that point in time these were all counties,
a number of the cities considered it quite closely and Dallas, for
example, I think came fairly close to having a CAA, but did not choose
to do so.
Mrs. GREEN. Wifi the gentleman yield?
Chairman PERKINS. I yield.
Mrs. GREEN. The chairman asked if you knew of any that were
denied the opportunity to be a CAA. How large is Dallas? What is
the population of Dallas?
Mr. ALLEN. Dallas is some 900,000.
Mrs. GREEN. Didn't OEO rule immediately after the amendment
was adopted that they would not designate any city under 250,000
population as a community action agency, and didn't they in this
very action prevent almost every city in the United States that was
not already a CAA from being, from becoming a CAA?
Mr. ALLEN. Yes, ma'am.
Mrs. GREEN. So they prevented every city in the United States
that was less than 250,000, from being a CAA in spite of the law
that the Congress passed. They never had this rule before that amend-
ment was adopted, and I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the vast
majority of cities in the United States are less than 250,000. There
are very few that are over 250,000 so by the direct action they took
they prevented the vast majority of cities becoming CAA's in spite
of the congressional action.
PAGENO="0601"
2033
So by overt act, they prevented it from taking effect. They denied
any State the right that wanted to become CAA and they said, "We
won't designate a State in spite of the fact that there was congressional
action that a State could be designated."
I consider it a clear flaunting of the law.
Then they had a 50,000 population ruling, too. What was that?
Mr. BRADY. That was rural.
Mr. MONROE. That was for counties.
Mrs. GREEN. No counties with less than 50,000.
Mr. MONROE. Less than 50,000.
Mrs. GREEN. This was never put into effect before the amendment
was adopted, so they precluded lots of counties from becoming CAA's
under the amendment adopted by the Congress in 1967.
I don't know of any agency in Government that I have ever seen
just go out and intentionally defy and prevent the congressional in-
tent from being carried out. This is why OEO has just a bad reputation
and they deserve it.
Mr. ALLEN. The 250,000 population pronouncement did have some
effect and I think that the 50,000 population feature has had some
adverse effect.
Mrs. GREEN. Then you say unofficially they went around to the
various places and discouraged them from becoming CAA's.
Mr. ALLEN. It is significant to me that in spite of this-
Mrs. GREEN. Would you answer that question for the record?
Your nodding of the head won't show on the stenotypist's transcript. I
asked if this was not true and you nodded yes, and I would like to
have you answer it verbally so the stenotypist could get it.
Mr. ALLEN. Yes, that was a factor, a very strong factor, but it is
quite significant to me whether you are considering States or whether
you are considering local government if you consider that they have
been strongly discouraged from assuming any authority or responsi-
bility in the program that they continue to ask for the programs. So the
program is needed.
I do think that whether you write ironclad language that gives full
authority to the State or whether you simply write it in such a fashion
that OEO will be required to give maximum consideration to the pro-
posals from the States, that it is essential, I cannot get my legislature
to vote the sums that Mr. Brady is talking about and put them in
escrow on the chance that we will get this type of cooperation.
Mr. BRADY. Might I comment on that, too?
I find myself in a very unusual position in being a State OEO office
which receives a grant from the Federal OEO making this comment.
I don't believe that any local governmental unit in the State of
Washington was thwarted in their efforts nor was there any activity
on the part of local OEO to obstruct.
Mrs. GREEN. Do you have the same OEO regional office as Oregon?
Mr. BRADY. Yes.
Mrs. GREEN. Twill call a witness later who was definitely prevented
from forming a CAA and the same regional officials supervising your
operations supervise Oregon.
Mr. BRADY~ I might defend the national OEO position on the
250,000-50,000 matter from a practical point of view.
In administering the program with what I would consider to be
very limited funds, particularly when you are talking about rural
PAGENO="0602"
2034
community action, I think OEO was practically forced into making
some administrative rulings which would prevent absolute prolifera..
tion of any number of community action agencies.
As a matter of fact, with the limited funds existing, we feel there are
probably too many community action agencies in the State of Wash-.
ington now and they should think about consolidating rather than
proliferating. I thin~k that may have been the rationale.
Mrs. GREEN. They didn't see fit to make this ruling before the
amendment went into effect, which is r~ither interesting if they
felt this way.
Second, if what you say is true, that they wanted to prevent the
proliferation, then why did they deny nine States or deny any State
the right to become a community action agency because it would
surely cut down on the proliferation if you had only one CAA in a
State. It would cut it down quite a little bit.
Mr. BRADY. I might comment on that, too, by saying that I think
with sufficient funds additional community action agencies might be
desirable. Then I believe, also, though I cannot speak for national
OEO in this regard, one of their reasons for denying a State the
opportunity to become a statewide community action program was
based upon what they analyzed as conflicts within the act itself.
The act itself really clearly lays out that this is a community
program.
Mrs. GREEN. The law clearly says that any State or political
subdivision of a State may be designated as a community action
agency. What is in conflict there? How could OEO interpret that no
State may be a CAA?
Mr. BRADY. I think the philosophy inherent in the act is that the
program essentially is a community program.
Mrs. GREEN. I am talking about the law that Congress passed
which reads any State or political subdivision thereof can be des-
ignated a community action agency.
You are saying OEO exercised superior wisdom and decided
Congress was all wrong, and that it had better decide what was meant.
Mr. BRADY. I have no particular comment on that. I am not sure
that OEO attempted to exercise superior wisdom. I think it tried to
carry out the total intent of Congress in the most effective manner
possible.
Mrs. GREEN. This will be tested when the matter comes up on the
floor for a vote to see whether it was the congressional intent.
Chairman PERKINS. Are there any further questions?
Mr. Buckley?
Mr. BUCKLEY. I would like to ask Mr. Monroe a few questions,
if I may.
In an effort to better define what your position is on the role of
the State, would you have it that the State have any less input or
any less involvement that you have at the present time?
Mr. MONROE. No; I like it like it is right now, personally.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Is it not true that your State does, because its geo-
graphical features and the population distribution, play a heavy role
in statewide welfare, education, employment programs?
Mr. MONROE. Yes.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Why would you have them play a lesser role in this
particular antipoverty program or Economic Opportunity Act?
PAGENO="0603"
2035
Mr. MONROE. I don't see a lot of difference in the role of the State
as, for instance, the Bureau of Unemployment Security and the OEO.
Our Department of Labor programs in our State are not controlled
by State officials. They are controlled by Federal officials. The pro-
grams having to do with employment~-we have a coordinating agency,
State relations now which has underits purview State planning, OEO,
crime and juvenile delinquency, and the Appalachian Regional Com-
mission, and a host of other things, and we manage to get our say
into the way things go.
When I am in the State capitol in Charleston, I meet West Vir-
ginians. When I come up here, I meet West Virginians. I am not par-
ticularly afraid of this great big Federal place up here doing bad
things because most of them up here are home folks.
In other words, I am suggesting that a State and Federal relations
system, if you want to call it partnership or whatnot, can operate
effectively if the relationships are set up properly.
Mr. BUCKLEY. I think you made the statement, you wondered
why any Governor would want anything to do with the program.
Did you have reference to West Virginia?
Mr. MONROE. Yes; I have reference to West Virginia. I think when
Governor-let me put it this way. When the Governor of West
Virginia became involved in antipoverty programs to the point where
he was wanting to get one under funded, to get one funded, it usually
caused a problem because poverty programs in West Virginia, at least
in many instances, have created a situation that might be called con-
flict of interest, and I don't see how he could win in other things that
he might want to do in a State by becoming involved.
Mr. BUCKLEY. But did he not have responsibility and a deep
interest in the program that he saw reason to disagree with?
Mr. MONROE. Yes, I think many times and I think when he did,
he managed to get things done in a way that he wanted, usually.
Chairman PERKINS. Are there any further questions?
Mr. BUCKLEY. I have two or three more.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead.
iVIr~ BUCKLEY. You leave the impression that the poor, and possibly
even the poverty programs in the State have been harassed and over-
investigated, overmonitored, this type of thing. Can you tell us why
you feel that way? What has been the extent of investigations?
Mr. MONROE. In some cases, in some counties when the poor were
organized, one of the first things that they began to find out was that
there are some problems with the way the local leadership is handling
things. If community action groups got together and their task was
to determine why they were poor, in some cases it was because of the
actions of their leadership.
Now, that is unfortunate, and this plays back on what Mrs. Green
said a while ago, I think, where you have an enlightened leadership
that is extremely sensitive to the needs of the people in their particular
area, then you can operate on the assumption these people are going
to do the right thing for the poor, but unfortunately, in some of our
counties this is not true.
Therefore, when they began to organize and say things to the local
leadership, then the local leadership put pressure on the State leader-
ship and in many cases, I am sure, there has been pressure put on
Washington leadership, but Washington is a little farther away than
Charleston.
PAGENO="0604"
2036
Does that answer your question?
Mr. BUCKLEY. It does, but you did not have reference to at least
one program and probably more than one program where there were~
financial difficulties and where there were reasons to bring in the FBI.
Mr. MONROE. What programs?
Mr. BUCKLEY. Did you not have one county that was in fiscal
difficulty?
Mr. MONROE. Yes; we have had fiscal problems in lots of areas.
in our State, unfortunately.
Mr. BUCKLEY. I was thinking, at the last reading, there was some
$2.7 mfflion missing from New York City neighborhood youth pro-
grams and would that not suggest bringing in the proper investigative
authorities?
Mr. MONROE. In cases we have needed it. In many cases poverty
programs have had fiscal problems not because anyone was necessarily
stealing out of the till, but they picked up people to do bookkeeping
who were not necessarily the best in the world.
Usually when the thing was all chased down and the money was
searched out, it was usually around somewhere.
Mr. BUCKLEY. Did you not have some legislation on the books in
the State which would assist or subsidize to some degree VISTA
volunteers in the State?
Mr. MONROE. We had VISTA volunteers under the Mental
Health Department. The Mental Health Department supplied a
small amount of money for the overseeing of this action. This was
to prove a point, that subprofessionals could be helpful in the mental
health field, and that program is now being phased out because the
point has been proven and the ~`Iental Health Department is moving
toward hiring paraprofessionals or subprofessionals into the Mental
Health Department.
Mrs. GREEN. Would the gentleman yield at this point?
What did yo'i say about the funds that were missing?
Mr. MONROE. I said in many cases it was not a matter of anybody
stealing the money. It was a matter of insufficient bookkeeping on
the part of a local organization and that is usually when the search
was made to find out what had happened, the money was there
somewhere or accounted for properly.
As far as I know, we have not had any bad fiscal problems.
Mrs. GREEN. Are you the director of the community action agency?
Mr. MONROE. No, I am in the State office.
Mrs. GREEN. Are you responsible for overseeing it?
Mr. MONROE. No.
Mrs. GREEN. What is your responsibility? I hope it is not fiscal
responsibility.
Mr. MONROE. No; it is a regional office's task to see to it that the
funds are dealt with properly on the local level. It is not our task
in the State office.
Mrs. GREEN. Would you not think there was a little bit of local
responsibility?
Mr. MONROE. Yes; the major responsibility is on the part of the
local organization that has the money, but they are in turn responsible
for their bookkeeping procedures.
Mrs. GREEN. And you are condoning the type of bookkeeping pro-
cedures which allows money to be missing provided that when you
look for the money you wifi find it?
PAGENO="0605"
2037
Mr. MONROE. No; I am not condoning that. I am just saying that
is what happened.
Mrs. GREEN. And you want the program to continue just as it is?
Mr. MONROE. Most of our programs are not in that condition.
Mrs. GREEN. A few moments ago, when you were asked if you
wanted a change, you said no. You wanted it to continue just as it is.
Mr. MONROE. As far as the State's responsibility is concerned.
Mrs. GREEN. I suggest maybe there ought to be some State respon-
sibility to see that there is some fiscal responsibility, if the local group
won't exercise it themselves. I don't know if you are aware of it or
not, but one of the criticisms of the war on poverty is that there
have been millions-millions-of dollars which have been misspent
and which have in effect been embezzled. There have been ghosts
that received checks. One of the reasons we tried to bring in public-
elected officials was to bring some responsibility to the program. The
taxpayers who are footing the bill have a right to expect fiscal re-
sponsibility and that the funds will be spent wisely and they won't
have to go around looking for them.
Mr. MONROE. In some of our local counties, if the fiscal responsi-
bilities were left up to the community action agency or the existing
local elected leadership, I would stifi rather leave it in the hands of
the community action program.
As I said a while ago, this may not be true where every leader on
the local and State level is tremendously enlightened in this sort
of thing. Unfortunately, some of our situations are not that way-
not all of them.
Mrs. GREEN. Am I in order to ask the stenotypist to read back
those statements which have just been made in answer to my question?
(The record was read by the reporter.)
]\`lrs. GREEN. I thank you.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Buckley.
Mr. BUCKLEY. I have no further questions.
Chairman PERKINS. Thank you, gentlemen, very much, and I
appreciate your coming here today.
Chairman PERKINS. Mrs. James M. Dolbey, president, Church
Women United, who is accompanied by a panel, "Women in Com-
munity Service."
Women in Community Service Panel:
STATEMENT OP MRS. JAMES M. DOLBEY, PRESIDENT, CHURCH
WOMEN UNITED; ACCOMPANIED BY MISS DOROTHY HEIGHT,
PRESIDENT, NATIONAL COUNCIL OF NEGRO WOMEN; MRS.
NORMAN FOLDA, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL COUNCIL OF CATHOLIC
WOMEN; MRS. LEONARD ~L WEINER, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL
COUNCIL OP JEWISH WOMEN; MRS. ROSENWALD, KANSAS CITY
WOMEN IN COMMUNITY SERVICE; MRS. HENRY KAPPELHOP, SAN
JOSE, CALIF.; MRS. ALBERT LASDAY, RICHMOND, VA.; MRS. E. IL
TOUT, FORT WORTIt, TEX.; MRS. JAMES ROBINSON, CLEVELAND,
OHIO; MRS. DOMINGA `G. CORONADO, CALIF.
Mrs. DOLBEY. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I am delighted
to be here and we are grateful for the opportunity of being able to
give our testimony today.
PAGENO="0606"
2038
I have known some of the members of the committee, particularly
Edith Green, with whom I have had very many pleasant relations.
It is a delightful pleasure to be here.
Mrs. GREEN. Mr. Chairman, may I say I am delighted to see
Dorothy Dolbey here, too, as a member of the panel as well as Dorothy
Height and other members. I will be interested in what you have to
say.
Mrs. DOLBEY. I would like to say I am going to begin and Miss
Height, if we may, will conclude. Each of us has what we call a backup
person. We are national presidents. We have many, many responsi-
bilities and jobs. We cannot know all of the details about some of the
programs so we have brought with us, each of us, one person who is a
project director and who can answer specifically some of the questions
that you may direct to them.
My backup person is Mrs. Henry B. Kappelhof, Margaret Keppel-
hof, project director of San Jose, Calif., central east coast area. She
is a volunteer. She has had 4 years experience in the job she has
today, and she can give you a great deal of the detail.
I am Mrs. James M. Dolbey, national president of Church Women
United. Church Women United is an ecumenical lay movement
providing both channels and programs for participation of Protestant,
Orthodox, and Roman Catholic women in civic and national con-
cerns; 2,350 units of Church Women United are formally organized
in several thousa.nd communities as well as in every State and the
District of Columbia.
Through its own organization and those of the 36 related national
denominations, Church Women United~ has channels into practically
every community in America with a potential constituency of over 25
million women members of these churches.
There is strength in the common motivating force holding together
church women across cultural and racial barriers, inasmuch as their
churches are located in ghettos as well as suburbs, in small towns and
rural areas. Although we cannot speak for each woman, our testimony
is in line with the pronouncements and program formulated by our
national board of managers and is in line with those of the National
Council of Churches to which we are administratively related.
For years Church Women United has been concerned with the
problems of racial discrimination, the hungry, and the poor. We are
particularly interested in the welfare of young women-teenagers and
those in the early twenties who were being overlooked or ignored in the
numerous programs designed to provide youths with the skills and the
know-how needed to escape from poverty. Church Women United has
mobilized action around current issues and such programs as: assign-
ment race; women in community service; adult basic education;
wake-up, speak-up, move-on in metropolitan areas; the school lunch
study, and other programs which attack hunger in America. It is from
this accumulation of experience from which we speak to the issues
before this committee.
When the Economic Opportunity Act of 1964 provided for the
inclusion of young women in the Job Corps, women from Church
Women United, the National Council of Catholic Women, the Na-
tional Council of Jewish Women, and the National Council of Negro
Women joined together, becoming incorporated as Women in Com-
munity Service-WICS. Our task is to provide thousands of vol-
PAGENO="0607"
2039
unteers who would recruit and screen young women for enrollment
in the Job Corps. Not the least of these values has come to church
women themselves in working with people in different segments of
our society, and thus enabling a broader comprehension of the realities
in American life.
Since 1965, some 20,000 WICS volunteers under the guidance and
direction of a small professional staff in Washington and coordinators
in the seven regional offices of the Job Corps have processed and for-
warded the applications of more than 32,000 girls who were qualified
for the Job Corps. In addition we have helped more than 32,000 girls
who were not qualified by reason of age, family situation, physical
condition, or the inability to obtain approval for child care.
Additional WICS volunteers have kept in touch with about 24,000
of the Job Corps enrollees during their stay in the 17 Women's Job
Corps Centers. Still others continuously have provided a variety of
support services to former Corps women.
Based on direct, personal involvement with thousands of young
women in need of remedial education, vocational training, counseling,
and more often than not, a complete change in environment, WICS
volunteers have concluded that Job Corps residential t~raining is
essential.
Statistics from the Labor Department show abO~it 392,000 women
between the ages of 16 and 22 in October 1967, were out of school
and unemployed. Many of them needed remedial education, skills-
training, and social development in order to become responsible,
self-supporting members of the communities in which they live.
These largely forgotten girls live in urban ghettos, in small com-
munities, on Indian reservations, in migrant labor camps, in the
mountains, and in rural areas off the main highways of the country.
These girls on the average, read at 6th grade level and have 5th
grade math skills.
Half of the girls in poverty have never seen a doctor or a dentist,
and many suffer from remedial physical defects and from nutritional
deficiencies or actual hunger.
Unless given a truly meaningful opportunity to gain additional
educational training and related experience, the female victim of
poverty almost inevitably will remain on welfare as long as she lives.
I spoke with several girls in the Cincinnati area, one of whom said
she was the first in all her family-three generations-to succeed in
getting trained and escaping from the welfare rolls. She was well
acquainted with the cycle of misery and powerlessness in her family
for three generations, and she was grateful for the opportunity to
become a self-supporting member of society.
Why should the Job Corps continue?
There is no doubt but that it has given new hope to thousands of
young women. It has also helped indirectly many in their families and
communities because these Job Corps girls have finished their high
school equivalent, learned a trade or skill and been able to become self-
supporting; 79 percent of the young men and women who have finished
their Job Corps training are now employed; 11 percent are in military
service; and 10 percent have gone on to technical training and/or
higher education.
The women who are here today can give you some of the specific
figures in their specific locations.
PAGENO="0608"
2040
The basic education program offered by the Job Corps is geared to
the needs of each enrollee. For example, the individual's reading and
mathematics level are determined by testing. Then each youth is
placed in classes according to his test scores or needs, not according
to age. Under this system, the nonreader, the fourth grade level reader,
and the more advanced reader can progress at their individual rates of
speed until each has reached his maximum capability. Individual
placement according to levels of previous attair~ment has overcome
one of the primary causes of school dropouts. In many towns and
cities church women are working with young people and adults who
are functionally ffliterate and have discovered anew the value and
importance of this approach.
Job Corps vocational training courses are designed to provide
persons who successfully complete the course of instruction with the
entry level skifi for a specific job. Once the student acquires the
techniques of a vocation, he is trained primarily on the job in actual
or simulated work situations. Good working habits, attitude training
and responsibility are integral parts of the vocational program. Those
industries working in the National Alliance of Businessmen will tell
you how necessary it is, how long it takes and how costly it is for the
industry to have to begin at the beginning with a trainee.
The administration's proposals for the Job Corps in the future has
greatly reduced the number of openings for girls in the residence
centers-particularly in the Middle West. Nor have any guaranteed
quotas for girls been made in the proposed opening of "Mini-centers"
in which many girls would no doubt gain much. However, thousands
of home visits made by women in recruiting girls have given us
adequate evidence why many young women need to be removed from
this environment.
We are rather definite on this and very determined. We feel that this
is a very decided advantage to the girl. They require a new life situa-
tion in order to have security to learn new skills and new patterns of
social behavior.
The Job Corps program is too costly?
How do you measure such a program? With the cost of a college
education? Today the cost of college educations never are figured on
the cost of maintaining college buildings or even professors. And no
tuition can cover that cost. That is covered by endowments of all
kinds, or by money given by foundations and individuals.
Yet the opponents of Job Corps continually talk of how costly the
program is by figuring in maintenance, et cetera, in the costs of the
program. Suffice it to say that the money spent to put the victim of
poverty through Job Corps residential training, $6,000 per man-year
in fiscal 1968-if you are going to include transportation as some
people do, it will be $8,250-is a blue chip investment, and especially
so if it will help keep one individual off welfare rolls. If that same
person were to repeat the family pattern of welfare, it is estimated
that well over $100,000 would be spent for her support in her lifetime.
It is essential and important to raise a generation which will com-
pletely overwhelm the relief rolls if we are not careful in the future. It
is important that we educate the girl in this area.
WICS volunteers have no vested interest in the Job Corps and
must be considered as unbiased in their evaluation. They strenuously
object to having the Job Corps judged on a cost accounting basis.
PAGENO="0609"
2041
As homemakers and responsible members of their local communities,
WICS volunteers are concerned primarily with the former Corps-
woman's future role as a wife, mother, and member of the community.
The majority of the W[CS-recruiters, screeners, and those engaged
primarily in supportive services-are convinced that as a result of
Job Corps orientation and indoctrination, most former enrollees
eventually will become responsible, participating members of the
communities in which they choose to live.
The graduates of the Job Corps will tell you themselves that they
have developed a self-respect, respect for others, a sense of responsi-
bility and an interest in the world around them. They also have re-
ceived excellent instruction in the maintenance of good health, proper
diet, grooming, and social deportment. Unquestionably, the former
Corpswoman has the potential to become a good homemaker and there-
by break the cycle of poverty into which she was born. You cannot
put a dollar value on the accomplishment of homemakers.
I believe in preventive work-the Job Corps is such a program.
It salvages literally thousands of young men and women born into
poverty.
Costly? How much does a battleship cost? How much does one lunar
module returning from space cost? The total cost of the Job Corps for
1 full year? Let us get our facts and statements into perspective-
we are speaking of lives-human beings.
Long ago Plato complained of those who heaped up physical struc-
tures, filled a city "full of harbors and buildings and left no room for
reason arid justice." It is reasonable, it is just, that the Job COrps
program continue to give hope to that young person seeking a way
out to a more productive life.
I might add, Mr. Chairman, that this material was prepared and I
wrote it prior to some of the last news releases and press releases that
came out about some of the things that presumably happened in
some of the centers across the country.
I don't know whether you have been deluged as I have been with
telegrams and letters and telephone calls, all hours of the day and
night, from women who have handled and who have direct~d pro-
grams in such centers who are indignant at some of the press releases
that have come out and in the manner and the timing, and they
feel that this is political expediency, shall we say. They are incensed
that they are judged on this basis. They will be the first to say that
some of these things do happen, but they will point out I think
that they h ave happened in many other areas of our life, perhaps in
all areas of our life, and certainly not in any greater proportion or
perhaps even in a lesser proportion in the centers.
So I wish to witness in their behalf too for the things which I
have stated in my prepared statement and the things I am now saying.
I am sure if you could talk to some of these women you would know
how really angry some of them are.
I have always wondered at men who get a little bit fearful at one
irate woman. Might I add there are 20,000 irate women today who
have been participants in the Job Corps program and in the WICS
program, and they are pretty angry at some of the things that have
been said.
27-754-69--pt. 3-39
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2042
Chairman PERKINS. Let me say that the committee will recess
for 15 minutes. We will go over to the House and cast a vote and ~ve
will come back.
(Brief recess.)
Chairman PERKINS. We will now hear from Miss Dorothy Height.
Miss HEIGHT. I am Dorothy I. Height, national president of the
National Council of Negro Women, representing 25 national orga-
nizations comprising 4 million women.
I brought with me Mrs. James Robinson, who is here from Cleve-
land, who has worked as a project director and now is the person
working with the support services in the WICS operation in Cleveland.
I would like also to introduce the person I hope will be able to say
something a little later, Mrs. Dominga G. Coronado, who is from
California, and she is the national chairman of the National G.I.
Forum Ladies Auxiliary of the United States. She is here on my right
and we wanted her to join our panel because she has now joined with
us as an associate member helping us in the job we are doing under
the banner of WICS.
I should like, Mr. Chairman, to have my complete statement filed
for the record.
Chairman PERKINS. Without objection, your complete statement
will be included in the record.
Miss HEIGHT. Because we would like to respond to any questions
you might have, I would simply like to lift up one or two points from
my statement.
Mrs. Dolbey has already indicated that we have been really out-
raged with the abrupt announcement of the closing of the centers a.nd
with the kinds of things we see are happening which somehow show a
lack of concern for the girls and absence of real program that will
take the kinds of things that the Job Corps center has meant to its.
next level dimension.
I want to speak especially in behalf of the women's centers because
I think we recognize that the problems of women who are living in
the ghettos and in the most deprived areas of our communities are
more critical, and often will get attention and one of the things we have
been glad to see was that there was as much attention given to the
specific problems of America as the women's centers.
You will see in my statement I have put heavy stress on this type
of residential center not as a housing measure for someone who may
go out and work in industry during the day but residence in the sense
of a total environment through which the person not only has counsel-
ing and other services, but the opportunities related to a peer group
to get those personal qualities which they themselves have and which
they can develop themselves.
I think the Job Corps program under the women's centers has been a
special kind of self-help program and so many girls have found in it a
basis for human renewal so it is the whole person we are concerned
about and the fact that whatever other kinds of programs may be
developed, we are not making just a plea that the only thing that in the
world is good is a Job corps Center, but I think we feel that we would
betray the experience of some 20,000 women for whom we speak if we
did not indicate that this program has unique features which we think
are needed.
PAGENO="0611"
2043
As a woman from the black community I want to say, especially,
that this is the first kind of program that has caught the imagination
of many of the girls whom we try to help and the good thing about it is
that they have an opportunity to be lifted out of that environment that
has maimed them in the first place, and that they have a fresh start.
You will see in my testimony that I am drawing upon what one of
the girls said just 48 hours ago, as she was being placed in a bus to
leave a center which was closing, and she said to the volunteer, "Why
do they do this to us?"
I think here at a moment when a program such as the Job Corps
program had just gotten started, it is too bad that we have to see it hit
this point and we, too, have to answer the question, What is it doing,
and what are we doing?
Two girls who thought they were getting a fresh start-and now they
find that this program is in jeopardy. I think this is what concerns us
greatly.
(Miss Height's prepared statement follows:)
PREPARED STATEMENT OF DOROTHY I. HEIGHT, NATIONAL PRESIDENT, NATIONAL
COTJNCIL OF NEGRO WOMEN, INC.
I am Dorothy I. Height, National President of the National Council of Negro
Women, representing 25 national organizations comprising four million women.
This organization was begun in 1935 by a great American, Mary McLeod
Bethune. The daughter of slave parents, Mrs. Bethune was admirably suited to
initiate an organization such as this, to provide and implement action against
poverty, disease, ignorance and discrimination. In 1969 the enemies are still with
us. The progress made has laid bare the real depths of the problems confronting
our nation.
From its organization by Mary McLeod Bethune in 1935 the National Council
of Negro Women has attempted to provide a vehicle for Negro women to enter
the mainstream of American opportunity and decision making. As women trained
or untrained and regardless of economic circumstances or geographical location,
we have worked with our neighbors in our neighborhoods, wherever we saw the
need-often we worked alone.
The Negro woman, on the basis of her life experience, is an "expert witness" on
poverty. She is also an "expert witness" on the hopes and dreams emanating
from a belief in our system of government as well as the heartbreaks and disap-
pointments resulting when these dreams are shattered and hopes are dashed on
the rocks of ignorance, poverty and racial discrimination. She lives out her life
discriminated against on the basis of both race and sex, and her inadequate
education and training blocks her entrance into successful competition in the job
markets of America.
Our support for the continuation of the programs authorized under the Economic
Opportunity Act of 1964 is based on our experience in working with these pro-
grams. More time is needed to continue the effectiveness of the efforts begun.
Headstart, Neighborhood Youth Corps, and the Job Corps particularly have
succeeded in raising aspiration levels of poor children and young people and in
preparing them for effective participation in American society. They have begun
a creative attack on old problems.
The National Council of Negro Women supports the continuation of Federal
efforts to eliminate poverty and misery in the United States. The most important
piece of business before America today is insuring the fruits of our democratic
labors to all of our citizens. The idea that "the poor must always be with us" is
an anachronism from a distant age. It is not compatible with a civilization that
has conquered space. We support H.R. 513 which provides for the continuation
of programs authorized under the Economic Opportunity Act of 1964.
Through our participation as volunteers in Headstart centers in all parts of the
co~mntry, we have witnessed the far reaching benefits to the parents and children
served by this program. Virtually all aspects of family life are affected by participa-
tion in Headstart from the identification of health and nutrition needs to parental
recognition of stages of childhood development.
PAGENO="0612"
2044
Working with the National Council of Catholic Women, the National Council
of Jewish Women and Church Women United, comprising Women in Community
Service (WICS) we have been involved in a most important and strategic OEO
program-the Women's Job Corps. WTe have committed a major share of our
resources and woman power to this effort because we know the need is great.
According to the U.S. Department of Labor, unemployment is more widespread
among teen-agers than adults, among non-white than white teen-agers and among
girls than boys. These young women represent a very considerable portion of our
future. They are our partners in this great enterprise known as democracy.
In their behalf, I welcome this opportunity to speak out for the Women's
Centers of Job Corps and for the 11,000 active WICS volunteers who, for 4 years,
have interviewed over 40,000 young women for this program.
We are outraged with the abrupt announcement of center closures, with the
procedures used to select centers for closure, with the lack of concern for the
individual girls, and with the absence of a definitive program to replace the Job
Corps opportunities.
We know what these girls will have to go back to if the promise to place each
girl in another vocational program is not fulfilled. I have been told that training
opportunities for a majority of these girls do not exist near their homes. We have
been in their homes as volunteer family visitors; we have worked with their parents;
we have worked with the communities from which they come, and with the girls
themselves. We know that these are girls who before Job Corps were lost to society.
Many lacked motivation because there was no hope in their own communities.
We came to them with the promise that Job Corps would provide the opportunity
for them to lift themselves out of lives of hopelessness.
Even if training programs were available in their home areas, the evil and
destructive forces which compound degradation are too great for them to deal
with. They must be removed from such an environment. For youth emeshed in
the chaos of poverty, a total change of environment is absolutely necessary to
bring about total human renewal. Job Corps has found that training in a voca-
tional skill is relatively easy to accomplish, but changing habits and social behavior
is not only the most important task of Job Corps, hut the most difficult. The
Job Corps residential setting provides a new peer group, new adult models, new
hope and new aspirations in a healthy, supportive environment.
These centers provide an atmosphere of tolerance and recognition of the worth
of each person. This atmosphere, along with access to social, cultural, educational
and career development, makes it possible for these frustrated, angry, hostile,
rejected young people to change, to hope, to develop their potential talents and,
most importantly, to achieve self-esteem.
Is all of this to be lost in a false economy decision?
These young people have grown up with empty promises. Is the Congress of
the United States which enacted the Economic Opportunity Act for these very
reasons going to permit the first step in the total destruction of the program?
This program is being dismantled at the precise moment when it was ready
to emerge from its own adolescence to adulthood; when operating costs have been
substantially reduced; when educators were beginning to turn to Job Corps to
find solutions to their own urban school problems. Most importantly, the Women's
Centers program, small as it is, is the only program in the entire United States
to provide a residential training experience so vitally needed for this population.
I urge you to put your individual and combined influences toward the continu-
ation and expansion-not the dismantling-of this essential human renewal
program. This program has changed thousands of lives in its initial 4 years and can
continue to play an important role in helping the country rehabilitate and utilize
our human resources. It has already offered so much, but to too few.
By cutting the women's program virtually in half, 4,650 young women are to
be uprooted; another 2,000 young women whom we have already interviewed
and processed are now being denied the opportunity to go to Job Corps; and
many thousands will never have this particular opportunity available to them.
You should know the extent of the traumatic effect this is having on these
young women. I was told by one of our volunteers that when the first 35 girls
boarded the bus yesterday morning to leave the 1-Iuntington Center, it was as
though a family was being broken up. Their tears, their despair, their returning
doubts that anybody really cares will never be reflected in a cost effectiveness
study!
I am told that these girls kept asking, "Why are they doing this to us?" I am
asking you that same question.
PAGENO="0613"
2045
Chairman PERKINS. Mrs. Folda, president of the National Council
of Catholic Women. You may proceed.
Mrs. FOLDA. I would like to state my volunteer is Beth Tout from
Fort Worth. She has been volunteer director for 4 years and she helped
make a good record for Texas. She is now also regional coordinator
for supportive services.
The council is a federation of 12,000 member Catholic organizations,
national and local, established throughout the United States and on
military bases overseas. It represents approximately 9 million women
and unites these member organizations by providing them with a wide
variety of educational materials and service programs relating to
community affairs, family affairs, international affairs, church com-
munities, and organizational services.
The National Council of Catholic Women is committed to the
task of helping to eliminate poverty. At the 33d national convention
held in Miami, Fla., October 1966, we adopted the following resolution:
We urge that the antipoverty program, stemming from the Office of Economic
Opportunity, be improved in quality and quantity. Funds adequate for contmuing
and strengthening meaningful self-help programs should be provided.
At the national convention held in Denver, Cob., October 1968, we
adopted several resolutions concerning our fields of special interest.
One of these resolutions, entitled "Utilization of Church Resources,"
read in part:
In meeting the needs of the poor, urban and rural, NCCW will continue to
support antipoverty programs, especially WICS (Women in Community Service,
Inc.) and urge the raising of funds, private and personal, to augment Government
allocations in this field.
This resolution reinforced the statement approved by the NCCW
board of directors at their meeting held in Washington, January 1967.
In part, it said:
The National Council of Catholic Women emphatically restates its commitment
to a strengthened war on poverty.
We believe that any action to reduce rather than increase the expenditures in
the struggle against poverty would be a tragic retreat and would have grave
consequences * *
The National Council of Catholic Women pledges to do all it can to develop a
more positive attitude toward the war on poverty. Problems were to be expected
in any effort to solve a problem as neglected and misunderstood as that of poverty,
but too much emphasis is being placed on the program's flaws and little on the
progress it has made. Our experience in various poverty programs, especially
WICS, has made us firsthand observers of that progress and convinced us of the
need for a strengthened war on poverty.
This resolution acknowledges the mistakes and the criticisms directed
toward the Office of Economic Opportunity, but it called attention to
the fact that the positive should be given at least equal emphasis.
It is with deep pride and satisfaction we point out much that OEO
has accomplished. One of these accomplishments has been the enlist-
ment of the largest peacetime army of volunteers in history, the mobili-
zation of cominu~iity resources, the pioneering involvement of private
citizens in social welfare programs.
It is an incontestable achievement that 500,000 Americans have
served as volunteers in Readstart; 50,000 volunteers work in com-
munity action agencies; 30,000 serve without compensation on CAA
boards; and 20,000 volunteers actively work with Job Corps enrollees.
PAGENO="0614"
2046
Across the country, NCCW members have given active and visible
support. Our membership has a special commitment to disadvantaged
young women through our membership in Women in Community
Service, Inc. This interreligious, intercultural, interracial group pro-
vides volunteer womanpower to recruit and screen young women in
poverty for the human renewal opportunities provided in the Women's
Job Corps centers. We have literally mobilized thousands of NCCW
members to assist these disadvantaged young people in their desperate
search for human development. They must not be shortchanged and
tossed back into the poverty areas from which they were gallantly
emerging.
It is noted that Labor Secretary Shultz has testified that:
We do not anticipate the demise of the Job Corps. Rather we seek to improve
its quality and relevance to the realities of the labor market.
Respectfully, we disagree with Secretary Shultz.
The realities of the labor market are not to be overlooked but of
paramount importance is the concept of removing young women from
slum areas to a healthy residential center environment where they
can benefit from the dedicated efforts of the staff to emphasize human
rehabilitation. We feel strongly that although job training is impor-
tant, human renewal is even more important. We question whether
these human values and concepts can be presented as forcefully and
effectively in the p~aimed "mini" urban centers.
The National Council of Catholic Women is known nationwide for
its involvement with the problem of poverty and particularly young
girls in poverty. Because of this, we have received numberless letters
at the national office from girls of the Job Corps who are asking that
we help them keep the Job Corps centers open. This is the gist of the
letters:
I am a Corpswoman in * * * Our Center is closing July 1. I feel that our
Center shouldn't close. If it does, what can a girl do with no skill and very little
education in this modern world? I can't get a job. What can I do? Please help us
in any way you can. Please help us to help ourselves.
This is a plea from the girls. A diocesan council president writes in
another vein. She says:
I am writing to you in defense of the Job Corps. I know that you at National
are doing everything possible * * * I am president of the * * * Diocesan Council
of Catholic Women and I certainly feel I would be remiss if I did not write to you
hoping for special help and suggesting that your testimony be presented from the
women's angle. I am not asking for the retention of the Job Corps for the economic
side * * * J am asking that the poor girls who come to Women's Job Corps
Training Centers with great expectations of making something of themselves * * *
will not be disappointed again. What will happen to the girls who come from small
towns, the girls who will not be able to receive the "day center" training which is
to be offered to the girls from cities?
* * * How are we saving money when we understand that a day-care center
will be set up in a city only 35 miles away from a Job Corps Center which is about
to be closed, a Job Corps Center which has marvelous facilities, with fine equip-
ment and is really working? What will a "mini" center achieve for girls who at
night won't be any better off than they are now, at home? True-it takes a few
years to get all the "cracks" out of a new project and the Job Corps has problems.
But it seems that it is very unfair to young women who, in the years to come,
in Job Corps Centers would have learned how to care for a family, a home, and
would have learned respect for themselves and others.
Let me speak from my personal experience with the Women's Job
Corps Center in Omaha, Nebr.-one of the centers already scheduled
for closing in July.
PAGENO="0615"
2047
A girl came to us very despondent, parents separated, very poor
background. You have seen pictures of tarpaper shacks. Well, this
home from which she came is even worse than that, if you can
imagine it, a very poor home life. She would give us a blow-by-blow
description and tell us of the way she lived, which was not good, and
had to be motivated to go on. Even at the center she wanted to drop
out. Each week we had to encourage her to stay on. She finally
passed her GED test. NOW she is in training teacher's aid program,
wants to go on to college. Three-fourths of the students were then
Negro girls, but she adjusted so well that she was elected the first
white student council president.
Then there was Geraldine, a nonwhite girl who came to us and
enrolled in Job Corps with fear and almost rebellion. We tried to
motivate and encourage her by telling her of a brighter future and
we said, "Wouldn't you like to go on to college?" She said "Who,
me?" She just didn't think anything like that was possible.
She had a lot of trouble within herself and was a pathetic case,
tried to commit suicide, received psychiatric help. She later enrolled
in a home economics department course, did quite well, and now she
is enrolled in a small State college in Peru, Nebr. Even as a freshman
this year she has been selected as the delegate to the State convention
home economics group.
She is president of her local chapter and besides this she is now
working 15 hours a week at the college to help with her schooling and
gets good grades, too. I shudder what would have been Geraldine's
life had she not had this chance. She overcame her defeatist attitude
and she has tremendous acceptance by the students and they glow over
Gerry at Peru also, and Gerry is on her way, I am sure, as a self-
reliant citizen.
These are some I know personally. This is Delcie, Ernestine, Bethy,
and many others. They become personalities to us, people, real friends
once you come to know them. And you are very, very happy that you
were able to help them on their way because so many have ability but
they haven't the confidence. It will cost money to close these centers
and it will cost money to establish new ones. The new program to be
set up near ghetto centers will not ta.ke the person out of the environ-
ment. Little tax money will be saved with the closing of these centers.
Rather, welfare and ADC costs may increase when these young,
untrained girls return to their former environment.
Certainly the perpetuation of the poverty cycle will be encouraged
with the killing of these vocational and basic education training pro-
grams designed to attract the little girl who knows no other way of
life than that provided by the welfare check of her mother that she
probably is receiving now.
You see, I am a taxpayer also, I have tax dollar signs in my eyes,
also, but I feel that these tax dollars are well spent, so please believe
us when we say that it is the consensus of our organization that the
Job Corps is the only existing program that gives poor girls another
chance to develop the attitudes, the skills, and the genuine know-how
they need to move upward into the socioeconomic opportunity and
mainstream of American life.
To drop or change a program offering opportunity and hope to
thousands of young women at the bottom of society would break
PAGENO="0616"
2048
faith with persons who already have suffered far too much depriva.-
tion in a land of plenty.
Thank you so much.
Chairman PERKINS. Thank you.
Mrs. Weiner, president, National Council of Jewish Women.
Mrs. WEINER. Thank you, Mr. Perkins.
I appreciate very much the opportunity to be here and to testify
and I would like to introduce my volunteer, who is MIrs. Albert
Lasday, of Richmond, Va.
I am not going to read my statement because it is in the record.
Chairman PERKINS. Without objection, your statement will be
inserted in the record and you may go ahead and summarize it.
(The statement referred to follows:)
PREPARED STATEMENT OF MRS. LEONARD H. WEINER, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL
COUNCIL OF JEWISH Wo~IEN
I am Mrs. Leonard H. Weiner, National President of the National Council of
Jewish Women, an organization established in 1893, with a membership of over
100,000 in local units throughout the United States. I appreciate the opportunity
of appearing before your Committee in support of the pending legislation.
Since its inception the National Council of Jewish Women concerned itself with
the disadvantaged people. For example as early as 1911, our members recognized
the importance of safe and sanitary housing in the lives of people and adopted a
resolution in support of public housing. We have long made efforts, to the best of
our ability and resources, to provide help to those who are not always able to help
themselves, by supporting legislation in the fields of education, housing, welfare
and child care. Our members in many local communities pioneered in the establish-
ment of pre-school, youth employment, literacy and other programs. We expended
our limited financial resources to improve the opportunities of our communities'
least privileged people.
The revelations, several years ago, that millions of Americans live in abject
poverty in the midst of the most affluent society in the world, prompted a Con-
gressional commitment, concurred in by members of both Political Parties "to
eliminate the paradox of poverty in the midst of plenty in this Nation by opening
to everyone the opportunity for education and training, the opportunity to work,
and the opportunity to live in decency and dignity."
WTe were heartened by this commitment and made the following statement in
testimony before this Committee.
"The National Council of Jewish Women has long worked in programs designed
to get at the roots of discrimination and poverty. For us, the launching of the
Economic Opportunity Act signalized the kind of government leadership, support
and funding that would enable America at long last to act on a broad scale to
meet its most pressing human needs."
We welcomed President Nixon's statement in his message to Congress on the
Economic Opportunity Act when he said: "From the experience of the Office of
Economic Opportunity, we have learned the value of having in the Federal
Government an agency whose special concern is the poor. We have learned the
need for flexibility, responsiveness, and continuing innovation. . . ." We re-
sponded to this message with a letter to the President in which we told him that:
"We were greatly pleased to note in your message to Congress on the Economic
Opportunity Act, that you endorse the concept of an Agency in the Federal
Government whose special concern is the plight of the economically and culturally
disadvantaged. We sincerely hope that you will continue to support the existence
of the Office of Economic Opportunity as a viable and effective mechanism for
initiative and leadership in developing new approaches to the solution of some of
the social problems plaguing our Nation today.
It is the view of the National Council of Jewish Women that one of the greatest
values of the poverty program has been its influence on the thinking of old estab-
lished institutions, both public and private, and its ability to focus attention on the
fact that new approaches are required to the solution of social problems." For the
Committee's information the letter to the President in its entirety is attached to
this testimony.
PAGENO="0617"
2049
We have supported the Economic Opportunity Act from its inception and ap-
peared before this Committee, urging its passage and extension, in 1964, 66, and 67.
Our support for this program stems from our belief that this program made millions
of Americans aware of the extent of poverty in the United States and that the
program greatly influenced the thinking of old established institutions, both public
and private to acknowledge that new approaches must be found and used to deal
with the problem of poverty in the midst of plenty.
It also stems from the experience of our members with a multitude of community
service programs where they have the opportunity to be closely involved with
people who have been victims of poverty. People who feel that there is no way out
in their lives and no hope for a future for themselves and their children. Long
before there was a poverty program our members attempted to open paths of
equality through the sponsorship of projects for pre-school children, a forerunner
of the Head Start Program, the establishment of day care centers, projects to
create employment opportunities for youth and other activities designed to im-
prove the quality of life in their communities. On the basis of their experience our
members are firmly committed to the war on poverty and strongly support the
Economic Opportunity Act.
At our Biennial Convention, held in Chicago, April 20-25, 1969, the delegates
adopted a statement in which they said: "We pledge our support for the legis-
lation now pending before the Committee on Education and Labor which will
extend the program for a period of five years and preserve the functioning of the
Office of Economic Opportunity as a viable institution for meeting many needs
of the poor". For the Committee's information a copy of the statement in its
entirety is attached to the testimony.
Through the extensive involvement of our members in the poverty program as
volunteers in Head Start, Job Corps, and as members of Community Action
Boards, we know that the poor look upon the Office of Economic Opportunity as
their spokesman in the Federal Government and the protector of their rights.
The weakening of the Office of Economic Opportunity through a reduction of
funds or other measures will be interpreted by the poor as a lessening of concern
for their plight. This has been dramatically demonstrated in recent weeks when
the Job Corps Program was drastically curtailed.
As one of the four major women's organizations in Women in Community
Service, (WICS), we have involved many of our members in the screening and
recruiting of girls 16-21 for enrollment in the Job Corps. This experience indicates
that the program is not just a job training program, but a program of human
rehabilitation. Recognizing this our volunteers are providing many supportive
services to the enrollees, not only at recruitment time, but even after their return
from the Job Corps Center.
Recent studies of the validity of the program produced conflicting evaluations
and it is somewhat difficult to arrive at an accurate appraisal if it is to be based
on these reports. We, therefore, support the continuation of the Job Corps on
the basis of our personal contact with the participants in the Job Corps. We
firmly believe that there have been dramatic results and that many young women
have been helped to pursue a life of dignity and decency. This is not to say that
we consider the program as perfect and that everyone of the enrollees has de-
veloped the highest possible aspirations for success in life, but some have. To
condemn this program because of some failures, is to condemn every manpower
training program and every education program which serves individuals of differ-
ing attitudes and capacities. Perhaps the best means of evaluating the program
is to ask those who are served by it. Since the decision was made for the abrupt
closing of a large number of Job Corps Centers we have had many communica-
tions from the young women whom we serve, who expressed disappointment,
frustration and despair because they feel that they are being robbed of an oppor-
tunity to improve themselves and escape the intolerable conditions under which
they live. To judge the success of the program merely on the basis of the hourly
wage received by graduates of the Job Corps is to miss the main objective of the
program and to overlook the type of young person enrolled in the Job Corps.
The Head Start Program has been evaluated from a similarly narrow point of
view, by assessing only the achievement in "intellectual and socio-personal develop-
ment". We believe that the Head Start Program is considerably more than an
educational program. As one of our members, who is working in the program,
stated it: "It is a comprehensive program with an interdisciplanary approach
that relates directly to the child's future life. It is the foundation not only for his
education but his health and social well being. The child's entire family, as well
as the community are involved in the program. Tremendous emphasis is placed
PAGENO="0618"
2050
on parent involvement. It is the personalized approach, the emphasis that each
child, each family is important-the school reaching out and coming to the com-
munity has made a tremendous impact on the poverty community. Using target
area residents and mothers of the Head Start children as aides in the program has
made a dramatic effect on relationships in many communities."
In the absence of the scientific evaluation of the non-intellectual benefits of the
program we must base our support on the experience of our members who have
daily contact with the program in their communities. The reports that we have
lead us to urge an expanded program for children of preschool age, which includes
an extensive participation of parents and health and welfare services.
The greatest insecurity and uncertainty that plagues all programs under the
Economic Opportunity Act and often produces inefficiency and personnel turnover
is due to the lack of adequate leadtime for planning and evaluation. If there is a
genuine desire to make the programs more effective, the provisions of H.R. 513
should be adopted.
In our work we have seen some defects, shortcomings and inadequacies in the
programs authorized by the Economic Opportunity Act. However, we feel strongly
that these programs have challenged the public conscience and that they merit
support. We believe strongly that the program must have sufficient funds to match
the goals enunciated in the War on Poverty.
We agree with President Nixon's conviction, enunciated in his message to
Congress of February 19, 1969, that: "The blight of poverty requires priority
attention. It engages our hearts and challenges our intelligence. It cannot and will
not be treated lightly or indifferently, or without the most searching examination
of how best to marshal the resources available to the Federal Government for
combatting it."
We urge the Committee to report the pending legislation favorably and thereby
meet the commitments made t.o the poor of our country.
MARCH 14, 1969.
THE PRESIDENT,
The White House,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR Mx. PRESIDENT: I was greatly pleased to note in your message to Con-
gress on the Economic Opportunity Act, that you endorse the concept of an
Agency in the Federal Government whose special concern is the plight of the
economically and culturally disadvantaged. I sincerely hope that you will con-
tinue to support the existence of the Office of Economic Opportunity as a viable
and effective mechanism for initiative and leadership in developing new approaches
to the solution of some of the social problems plaguing our nation today.
It is the view of the National Council of Jewish Women that one of the greatest
values of the Poverty Program has been its influence on the thinking of old es-
tablished institutions, both public and private, and its ability to focus attention
on the fact that new approaches are required to the solution of social problems.
As as organization initmately involved with the Job Corps Program, as a par-
ticipant in Women in Community Services, we must emphasize that the program
is a gret deal more than merely teaching young people a skill. It is in essence a
human rehabilitation program in which acquiring a job skill is only part of the
process. It is, therefore, our hope that wherever the program is administered,
its original intent will be preserved.
This is equally true of the Head Start Program which involves more than educa-
tion. In this we speak from experience because our members have sponsored
Head Start programs for some time before there was an Economic Opportunity
Act.
Our prime interest is in maintaining and developing effective programs which
have proven useful in alleviating some of our social problems, and we shall con-
tinue to support those program concepts which recognize the very rapid changes
in our society and the need for new approaches.
May we hope that our concerns will merit your consideration.
Respectfully yours,
Mrs. LEONARD H. WEINER,
National President.
ToPIcAL STATEMENT-ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY Ac~
The National Council of Jewish Women views with great alarm the drastic
changes being made in some of the very important aspects of the Poverty Program,
particularly the Job Corps. The reduction of funds and the transfer of some of the
PAGENO="0619"
2051
most successful programs are being interpreted as an effort to abolish the Office
of Economic Opportunity.
The disadvantaged in our country have come to look upon the Office of Eco-
nomic Opportunity as their spokesman in the Federal Government and as an
agency which focuses attention on their problems. Any action which weakens the
effectiveness of this office will be viewed by many as a sign of diminishing concern
for the disadvantaged in our society.
We pledge our support for the legislation now pending before the Committee on
Education and Labor which will extend the program for a period of five years and
preserve the functioning of the Office of Economic Opportunity as a viable insti-
tution for meeting many needs of the poor.
Mrs. WEINER. Since 1893 we have been the National Council of
Jewish Women and we have been concerned with the needs of the
neglected, the lonely, the lost and the sick. We have worked at pro-
grams in housing, in education, welfare, all these many years. The
revelation several years ago that millions of Americans live in abject
poverty in the midst of the most affluent society in the world prompted
this congressional commitment to eliminate the paradox of poverty in
the midst of plenty by opening to everyone an opportunity to
training and to work and live in decency and dignity.
This gave us great heart. We felt that the launching of the Economic
Opportunity Act signaled the kind of government leadership, support
and funding that would enable America at long last to act on a broad
scale to meet its most urgent pressing need. We have welcomed Presi-
dent Nixon's statement in his message to Congress on the Economic
Opportunity Act when he said, "From the experience of the Office of
Economic Opportunity we have learned the value of having in the
Federal Government an agency whose special concern is the poor."
We have written letters thanking him and explaining our feeling.
We have supported the Economic Opportunity Act from its inception
and appeared before this committee urging its passage and extension
in 1964 and 1966 and 1967.
Our support stems from the belief that this program made millions
of Americans aware of the extent of poverty in the United States
and that the program greatly influenced the thinking of old estab-
lished institutions both public and private, to acknowledge that new
approaches must be found and used to deal with the problem of
poverty in the midst of plenty.
Also, our support stems from the experience of our members with a
multitude of community service programs where they have had the
opportunity to be closely involved with people who have been the
victims of poverty, people who feel there is no way out in their lives,
no hope for a future for themselves and their children.
At our biennial convention held just 2 weeks ago in Chicago our
delegates adopted the latest statement in a long series which said:
We pledge our support for the legislation now pending before the Committee
on Education and Labor which will extend the program for a period of five years
and preserve the functioning of the Office of Economic Opportunity as a viable
institution for meeting many needs of the poor.
Now, as one of the four major women's organizations in community
services we, too, have many, many volunteers involved in working
with the women in the Job Corps program. We feel as has been said by
others here that this program is much more than a skills training
program. It is, in effect, a human rehabilitation program. It is hard to
put together all of the conflicting evaluations of the program and to
PAGENO="0620"
2052
arrive at an accurate appraisal if it is based only on the kinds of
statistical reports we have seen. We are supporting the continuation of
the Job Corps on the basis of our personal contacts with participants
in the Job Corps. We believe there have been many, many dramatic
results in the lives of young women, young women who have been
enabled through their Job Corps experience to begin lives of dignity
and decency.
That is not to say we think the program is perfect in every respect
and that everyone of the enrollees has developed the highest potential
of her aspirations for success in life, but some of them have, and to
condemn this program because of some failures is to condemn every
manpower training program and every educational program which
serves individuals of different attitudes and capacities.
Perhaps the best means of evaluating a program is to ask those who
have been served by it. We, too, as Mrs. Folda indicated, have been
deluged with letters from Job Corps girls from our centers saying to us
how saddened, how worried, how bereft they feel because they are
about to be robbed of an opportunity to improve themselves. We say
that this is a rehabilitation of a human program.
I am trying to skip so I don't repeat many things you have heard
before.
One of the things that has bothered us about the Economic Op-
portunity Act has been the insecurity and uncertainty that have
plagued the programs and have produced inefficiency and personnel
turnover because there has been inadequate leadtime and evaluation.
We feel if there is a genuine desire to make the provjsions of H.R. 513
effective, they should be adopted. `We have seen defects and short-
comings and inadequacies in the programs of the Economic Oppor-
tunity Act. However, we feel strongly that these programs have
challenged the public conscience and that they merit support. We
believe strongly that the program must have sufficient funds to match
the goals enunciated in the war on poverty. That is why we urge the
committee to report the pending legislation favorably and, therefore,
meet the commitments made to the poor of our country.
I would like to ask Mrs. Lasday if she has a word to say about the
volunteer participation and what it means to be a volunteer with the
girls in the Job Corps.
Mrs. LASDAY. It will be my pleasure to do this.
In Richmond, WICS is made up of the four sponsoring organiza-
tions. There is one common statement von will hear from us and that
is, this is the first volunteer program we have ever known where we
have to pay for our own expenses. The funding that is done is done for
long distance, for travel 20 miles or more. A ~woject director, and I
know for having served 2 and a half years, and I am not State
coordinator, in short of support service in the Richmond area has $20 a
month of expenses just to pay for carfare and lunches. In giving
support service we have no funds for such things as blood tests
needed in order to work in a health services job, books that are needed
to review so that they can take a State merit system, to get qualified
for it, but most of all our support services has been before the girls go
and this is why the girls from central Virginia have such a good record.
WTe have sent 408 enrollments, actually 401 girls, seven readmits, ~\~hO
made the mistake of quitting and went back-our girls come in every
Tuesday from 10 in the morning until 4 in the afternoon for an
PAGENO="0621"
2053
orientation program. We have accepted 623~ percent from rural
organizations. Consequently, our organizations have had to raise
$2,500 a year.
We could no longer afford the number of meals because the more
volunteers we get, twice the number of girls come in, so now a different
affiliated sponsoring group provides lunch each week. The lunch pro-
gram has been going on for about 14 months and the contacts are
made from every single affiliate church,. the National Council of
Catholic Women and the Church Women United and the National
Council of Jewish Women have provided lunch, which means these
people who previously did not have a commitment now are aware of
such programs and have now become committed.
There are just no programs in central Virginia that our girls can
qualify for. The MDTA can't have two classes a year requiring high
school graduation. Our high school graduates read at less than the
eighth grade level. A year in Job Corps and we get some of the girls
in college. The programs have not met their needs locally and they
can't meet their needs locally. We have requested the camps com-
mittee to take this into consideration. It has been 15 months since I
made the first request. Now, there is a special meeting on Friday to
get an amendment to the State camps program.
Job Corps centers provide for our girls an opportunity to learn
community living, the one thing the poor have in common with this;
they live an isolated monochromatic existence where they live in rural
areas or where they live in urban areas. Most of our girls never took
a bus around Richmond. They couldn't find jobs when they came back
home, graduated from Job Corps centers, because they never used the
public transportation system in their own communities. We hope
something can be done to salvage the program because many centers
are needed in urban areas, in the concentrated megalopolist areas, but
this does not provide for the rest of the Nation and we are not a part of
the megalopolies.
Mrs. GREEN. Can one of you tell me the dollar amount of the con-
tract that WICS has?
Miss HALLAREN. This contract is 4 years old. We have had 16
extensions on our contract which started the 1st of July 1965. Instead
of initiating new contracts, they just keep extending it. The total
amount of money is just under $2 million. This covers supportive
services which we contracted to do last year as well as recruiting and
screening. I can give you the exact figures for recruiting.
Mrs. GREEN. Are you still doing the recruiting?
Miss HALLAREN. it was turned off when they announced the closing
of the centers.
Mrs. GREEN. I thought a year ago they made a change and the U.S..
Employment Service was going to do the recruiting for both boys and
girls.
Miss HIALLAREN. Yes, they did, Mrs. Green. We continued to
recruit, but the employment service recruited also for girls as well as
for boys. We were recruiting 1,000 girls a month. Then they set up a
number of new centers. They asked us to triple our input and we
couldn't do it with a 2-month leadtime. I don't think General Motors
could triple production with such a leadtime. We couldn't do it, and
they said the centers had to be filled and, therefore, they contracted
with the employment service. This is when first there was another
agency that recruited for girls in addition to WICS.
PAGENO="0622"
2054
Mrs. GREEN. You still are doing recruiting?
Miss HALLAREN. We were doing recruiting up to the announcement
of the closing of the centers-along with the U.S. Employment
Service.
Mrs. GREEN. Would you supply for the record the total contract
that WICS has and the items because I was interested in the comments
of the preceding speaker. I know people in Oregon pay their own
exj)enses, and I wondered what the WICS contract was and what the
money from the Federal Government goes for.
(The information referred to follows:)
WOMEN IN COMMUNITY SERVICE, INC.,
Washington, D.C., May 13, 1969.
EDUCATION AND LABOR COMMITTEE,
Rayburn Office Building,
House of Representatives,
Washington, D.C.
(Attention of Mr. Robert MeCord)
DEAR SIR: The following data is in response to Congresswoman Edith Green's
request that Women In Community Service, Inc. supply for the Congressional
Record the provisions of WICS contract with the Office of Economic Opportunity.
OFFICE OF ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY
IN CONTRACT WITH
WOMEN IN COMMUNITY SERVICE, INC.
RESPONSIBILIT~S
Contract OEO-475, dated 1 July 1985, with Women In Community Service, Inc.
provides that WIGS will: recruit and screen girls for the Women's Job Corps
Residential Centers; advise and refer rejectees; and advise, assist and refer
returnees from the R~sidenfial Centers.
Among other responsibilities, WICS will: mobilize, direct and coordinate the
efforts of its local organizations doing Job Corps recruiting; make home visits
where possible collect pertinent background data on each applicant; prepare
selectees for travel to the Job Corps Centers.
AUTHORIZED EXPENDITURES
Allowable budget items under WIGS contract include: the cost of telephones,
office space, supplies and utilities for both local units and the national office;
enrollees' transportation costs when the point of embarkation is beyond normal
commuting distance (involves rural girls, primarily) ; food and lodging for
applicants (particularly rural applicants) if necessary to hold them through the
noon hour or overnight; purchase of minimum clothing to enable applicants
to travel to residential centers; physical examinations of applicants, as required;
10~ a mile for trips of more than 20 miles by volunteers in connection with
the recruiting and screening of applicants; salaries of national and field staff
(34 persons) ; travel of staff personnel on official business; and cost of local
clerks ~ $1.60 an hour when local production warrants (e.g., a WIGS screening
center which produces 21 to 30 acceptable applicants per month is authorized a
clerk for 20 hours per week; a center that produces 41-50 acceptable applicants
per month is authorized a clerk for 40 hours per week.)
SPECIAL PROGRAMS
Twice, during the past four years, when there was a moratorium on Job
Corps recruiting, screening, and assignment, WIGS became involved in other
OEO activities: (1) community action programs and (2) orientation programs.
(1) Because training centers were not ready as soon as anticipated in 1965-66.
a backlog of recruits accumulated in the pipeline. During a 7-month moratorium
on recruiting and screening. WIGS worked with girls awaiting Job Corps assigmi-
ment as well as with Job Corps graduates. In addition, WICS conducted corn-
muimity action programs for applicants ineligible for Job Corps, for mothers of
Job Corps applicants and for other women in poverty.
PAGENO="0623"
2055
(2) In late 1967, another backlog of recruits developed when the Employment
Service, as well as WICS, began recruiting girls. In order to hold the interest
of accepted applicants through this second moratorium on assignment, WIGS
were authorized to conduct orientation programs. Included in the WIGS pro-
gram were girls recruited by the Employment Service as well as by private
screeners.
* Authorized expenditures included: transportation from applicant's home to the
program; lunches, if necessary to schedule the program over a normal lunch
period; admission fees for attendance at cultural programs, museums, historic
places (not for entertainment) ; training materials including materials for arts
and crafts, typing supplies and educational films; transportation of volunteers
accompanying girls on scheduled tours.
The volunteers considered these special programs so worthwhile that, when the
moratoria were over and the authorization of funds was withdrawn, many volun-
teer units collected monies from their local organizations to continue the pro-
grams. For example, Baltimore raised $2,000 locally to fund its orientation pro-
gram. WICS volunteers became so involved in the poverty problems of their own
communities that their assistance t.o the needy extended beyond the Job Corps
bounds originally set. A case in point is the action of the Lincoln, Nebraska WICS
who raised $10,000 for the surgery of a girl w-ho, without the surgery, had less
than four years to live. (Atch.)
SUPPORT SERVICES
With the emphasis on placement, Job Corps invited WICS to provide placement
support services which included: contact with returnees; referral service for un-
employed girls; housing assistance for transferees; help with budget planning,
health services, social services and legal services, as necessary; citizenship
information (local, state, federal taxes, etc.) ; training opportunities; and com-
inunity and emergency services. WICS assistance under placement support-
while undertaken by many WIGS prior to contractual provisions-became part
of WICS contract in 1968.
COSTS (CONTRACT IS COST REIMBURSABLE)
The average cost per girl for recruiting and screening during the past four
years has been $44. The average cost of the support service which has been under
contract for only a year, has been $12 per girl. (The bulk of the overhead, i.e. office
space and equipment, staff and staff travel, is covered under recruiting and
screening.)
The total contract for recruiting and screening Job Corps applicants for nearly
4 years (1 July 1965 to 30 April 1969) has been $1,710,032; for support services
over a 15 month period (1 February 1968 to 30 April 1969), $121,650. During the
period 1 July 1965 to 30 April 1969, WIGS recruited more than 38,000 acceptable
applicants for Job Corps. From 1 February 1968 to 30Apr11 1969, WICS volunteers
contacted more than 10,000 returnees from Job Corps and provided assistance
as needed.
Respectfully submitted,
MARY A. HALLAREN,
Eaecutive Director.
[From the Lincoln Sunday Journal and Star (Mar. 23, 1969]
IT'S $5,000 FIRST, THEN OPERATION FOLLOWS TO SAVE LINCOLNITE
Janice Burton, a 19-year-old Lincoln High School student, has been told she
has "less than four years to live unless specialized surgery is performel to cor-
rect a spinal disorder."
She has to have $5,000 in advance to get into the University of Minnesota
Hospital at Minneapolis which is the only hospital where surgery for scoliosis
of the spine is performed.
She doesn't have $5,000, nor does her family, and so far, all avenues by which
she may obtain it have apparently been closed.
The Lincoln organization of Women in Community Service (WIGS) is now
contacting service clubs and private individuals in attempt to acquire money
for the life or death operation.
A spokesman for WIGS, Mrs. Lucy Nevels, said funds are being collected by
persons in the WIGS office in the YWOA building, 1432 N.
PAGENO="0624"
2056
A highly specialized surgeon at the Minnesota IT. Hospital has agreed to per-
form the operation without charge. but the hospital itself requires a minimum
of $5,000 in advance to cover an estimated six months post-operative recovery
period at $100 per day.
Ten years ago, when Janice was nine, her disease was diagnosed as ".
severe congenital scoliosis." She was never treated.
Scoliosis of the spine is bending Janice's body like a bow, causing her chest
cavity to place enormous pressure on her lungs and heart.
In February, 1968, Janice was certified for crippled children's services. Dr.
Frank Stone and others obtained approved from the State Vocational Rehabili-
tation office for funds to finance the operation.
She was scheduled in Aug., 1968. for the operation. But because the federal
government cut funds for such programs, she went without her operation.
The estimated curvature of Janice's spine is now at 115 degrees. Each day
she bends and hurts a little more.
Doctors say surgery "would extend her life expectancy indefinitely." It would
make it possible for her to lead a productive life. Well almost. Janice, in addi-
tion to having scoliosis of the spine, has a crippled left arm and hand.
Miss HALLAREN. The cost has been an average of $43-plus per girl.
Mrs. GREEN. Is that for a girl recruited?
Miss HALLAREN. A girl who goes into the center. This is the total
cost of the operation-$43-plus per girl, it has averaged over the past
4 years.
If you want me to take a minute on this, at the loctul level, insofar
as possible. our people try to find free space for their offices. Some-
times in the city they can't do that, so we hire a place and pay rent.
Wherever possible, they try to get free or secondhand furniture;
otherwise, we pay. The telephone bill is the largest item since we reach
out into the rural areas with long-distance telephone calls. These are
the main costs, in addition to staff members. In each of the seven Job
Corps regions, we have a staff. We have a regional coordinator and
assistant and a clerk, and these people travel so that the salaries plus
the travel, plus the maintenance of `282 local units, goes into that
$43-plus per girl. When we were recruiting regularly at 1,000 a month,
before they put the triple header on us, the triple whammy, it was
costing $26 per girl. Then we put mobile teams in the field and, for
travel.~the additional cost brought it up.
Chairman PERKINS. Did you want to make a statement Mrs.
Coronado?
STATEMENT OF MRS. DOMINGA G. CORONADO, ON BEHALF OF THE
AMERICAN GI FORUM LADIES AUXILIARY
~1rs. CoRoNADo. My name is Dominga G. Coronado, and I come.
before you today as national chairman of the American GI Forum
Ladies Auxiliary of the United States.
Since 1948, the ladies auxiliary has been involved in all levels of
community services following the belief that women can fulfill an im-
portant function within society because they are women.
An average woman is well equipped mentally to perform as a fruit-
flil member of society. Today I come to a.sk you to consider the women
who were not given an opportunity to equip themselves with even the
basic rudimentary knowledge of society itself.
With this in mind we have recently joined Women In Community
Service, Inc., in the expectation of lending our experience and know]-
edge of the Mexican-American women of the United States.
PAGENO="0625"
2057
Within our ranks are war widows, Gold Star mothers, and female
relatives of U.S. Armed Forces personnel.
We are deeply concerned and disturbed to learn that some of the Job
Corps centers will be closed, thus curtailing the educational `and voca-
tional opportunities to thousands of girls, who because of their mis-
fortunes have been deprived of equal social and economic opportunities.
Our concern is the girl who has not finished school, who is untrained,
and whose very existence has been ignored by society. It is comforting
to know that through the Job Corps about 9 percent of the enrollees
being Mexican-American girls have been able to obtain and hold a job
and earn a decent wage.
The Job Corps has provided the Mexican-American girl with a last
chance to be somebody, and an opening into today's complex society by
giving her direction and a goal and by properly equipping her with
an education and a trade. The ability to hold `a job at a decent wage
was never possible for her before the Job `Corps.
A Clinton Job Corps graduate illustrates this point. S'he arrived with
only a fourth-grade education. Her steady source of income had con-
sisted of babysitting chores. In 12 months ~he earned `a high school
diploma and graduated as a dental assistant.
She `immediately found employment and has remained employed
since graduation.
Girls who could not read English and/or even recite the alphabet
have earned a high school diploma and have been trained in clerical,
business, and office skills.
Employment in public utility, private industry, and business offices
again has made available a `decent source of income for these trainees.
Our ethical and political philosophies hold that a free `society is the
most advanced society. Our philosophies also hold that a family is the
smallest unit in our society.
By experience we know again that a woman carries the largest, the
biggest responsibility for holding a family together and educating
the children.
And for being available 100 percent of the time for any and all
family matters. The effective fulfillment of these responsibilities must
not be overlooked. The deliberate withdrawal of the opportunities for
fulfillment by a free society is unforgivable.
Thank you, Chairman Perkins.
Chairman PERKINS. Mrs. Green.
Mrs. GREEN. First I would again want to say I think WICS has
performed a very valuable service through the years. I think the funds
that they have received for recruitment, and so forth and so on, are
far less than the U.S. Employment Service and as you know I have
been critical of this from time to time.
Do I understand all of you say you are in favor of the 5-year
extension of OEO?
Mrs. DOLBEY. We do think there should be a long-term thing to
get the thing done.
Mrs. GREEN. You have been in politics, Mrs. Doibey, do you think
this is a realistic approach?
Mrs. DOLBEY. I don't think I am talking politically realistically. I
am talking about what can be. done in an area, this area. Whether it
can be done or not I do not know.
27-754-60-pt. 3-40
PAGENO="0626"
2058
Mrs. GREEN. Do an of you have a single change or amendment or
would you pass the OEO exactly as it is for 5 years?
I did not find in any of the statements although I did not read all of
them, a single change any of you would make.
Mrs. DOLBEY. If I may be so bold, and if Dorothy Height were here
now, having been president of WTICS last year would have some ideas,
but I think all of us feel there could be some changes but some of the
changes spoken of I question very seriously.
Mrs. GREEN. Such as?
Mrs. DOLBEY. I think many centers have not really been proved as a
center, as a sample of saving money, let's say and of really doing the
jth we are doing, and I find it difficult to find anybody who can give
me realistic ideas to how it would be worked.
Mrs. GREEN. Do you oppose the starting of the minicenters on this
basis?
Mrs. Coronado, do you?
Mrs. DOLBEY. Not completely. I just think-
Mrs. GREEN. When we started Job Corps, they were not proven that
they could do the job.
Mrs. DOLBEY. This is why I am hesitating because I think all of us
feel that you just don't say you are against a program without its
ever being shown that it can be handled.
To date, nobody has really come up with a cost-analysis basis as far
as I am concerned.
Mrs. GREEN. I thought you said in your statement you objected to
a cost-analysis basis for Job Corps?
Mrs. DOLBEY. I do object on a cost basis like that but I say when you
are talking about a cost basis for establishing a minicenter that it is
going to save you money as opposed to a Job Corps center, you do not
have the basis for that since you have not established the basis for the
cost of a minicenter.
When I said in my statement that I don't care to have a cost analysis
cited as the real reason, I made my point that this is more than just a
cost basis for a person.
Mrs. GREEN. Mrs. Dolbey, when you were on the city council in Cin-
cinnati, your position was similar to the Members of Congress.
Could you tell me of any time that any program came up to the city
program in Cincinnati, that you as a responsible member of that city
council did not have to consider the cost?
Mrs. DOLBEY. I certainly did consider the cost and you and I have
discussed this before.
Mrs. GREEN. Yes; we have.
Mrs. D0LBEY. We discussed that women bring a certain contribution
to politics, that we think subjective, that we have learned to think
objective but we think objectively. Many times sitting on housing com-
mittees was the one who said about what about this person's plea or
need, not just how much it costs.
That is important but that is not the only consideration.
Mrs. GREEN. Isn't it something that the Congress has to consider?
Mrs. DOLBEY. Yes; but I think you have to decide what your basis
for consideration is.
PAGENO="0627"
2059
Mrs. GREEN. If the basis is this, that there are a limited number of
dollars and there are 800,000 dropouts a year and we are only reaching
:35,000 and if we followed another procedure perhaps we could reach
70,000, then it would seem to me that this Congress is obligated to
consider alternative programs. If we can help two or three girls for
every one who is now being helped, we would really be derelict in our
duty if we did not try to do so.
Mrs. DOLBEY. My statement then, I guess, holds because I have not
seen the exact accounting of how you can do 3 for 1.
Mrs. GREEN. I could get you some examples because I know centers
that are residential in nature and where the costs are far below the
costs of a job center.
May I suggest to you that $6,000 is not accurate? GAO reports the
average cost is $8,300.
Mrs. DOLBEY. I inserted that it was either $6,000 or $8,500 if you
were going to include transportation.
Let me say one thing else about the minicenters versus the residen-
`tial centers which we are using as a basis.
Mrs. GREEN. They are both residential.
Mrs. DOLBEY. I mean the type of program and the type of structure.
In many instances where you have to have qualified staff, enough staff
to do a job, we have discovered that it is easier and cheaper in the
end-now what this will prove I don't know.
I would hate to see you cut out every program to experiment and
I think you might have a pilot program or two. Each State is differ-
ent so I don't know if it would hold for the whole country but I use
as an example consolidated county school programs which certainly
Thas saved money in bringing people distances because they have been
:gF'Te1~ a greater and better staff than a small school.
This is one basis of comparison or analysis which I think people
have failed to take into account.
Mrs. GREEN. I am sorry, I don't understand you. What is a compari-
son of the consolidated school districts?
Mrs. D0LBEY. I am saying that a center which takes people in num-
bers to an area where you have enough staff and can take care of many
more girls that the basis of comparison can be a consolidated school
program where this is done and this has been used-I never heard this
~argument used.
They have always said it is unnecessary to take people from South
Carolina for example, to Oregon or Washington or someplace else.
I have one other reason why I think it is important for residential
centers. I have traveled a great deal in many areas where I think there
is a real racial bias and I am not sure that all groups will be included
in some of the smaller centers.
This is one of my reasons also for saying that when you do take a
girl across a. county line or an area, you have a greater chance for that
kind of cross section.
Mr. PtTCINsKT. Is it not. a fact right now the most segregated institii-
tions in the country are to a great extent the so-called minicenters, the
camps and to a great extent the Job Corps centers?
They `segregate people economically. They are all poor, they are all
from depressed and disadvantaged areas. It would seem to me if they
want to build minicenters in the urban areas they ought to try to go
PAGENO="0628"
2060
through the vocational education agencies and build centers for all
youngsters.
Mrs. DOLBEY. I will let some of my backup people answer you on
that. but I did not think we were arguing the case as to whether we
should have a center that was that kind of cross section.
Mr. Pucixsici. We have watched the Job Corps. The young lady
from Oregon s~ id the cost is high and the President shut. down 58
centers because he says they are not working.
Over the past few years we have, seen a number of skill centers oper-
a.te'cl b r1vafe industry or the Labor Department, where they brought
in 200 or 300 boys or girls from the ghett.os.
The General Accounting Office has been very critical of them. So it.
seems to me that if we are going to make any changes, then perhaps.
what we. ought to do is use t:le Vocational Educ;ation Act of 1968 which
provides for residen.t:iat skill centers.
Mrs. DOLBEY. I have not seen any fact that says that. it is going to
be the only recourse or that it might or should be the only recourse and
I t.hink it should not be.
I think skill centers are all right but something else cannot take
their place.
Mrs. GREEN. A very large number of the Job Corps centers are. still
going to stay in operation. We are going to have a diverse operation. a
diversity of programs.
We are closing down I have forgotten how many of the urban Job
Corps centers and 59, or some such thing, of the Conservation Corps,
but we are keeping a large number of them still open. In place of the
ones that we are closing, we are going to try the small residential
centers in urban areas.
Mrs. ROSENWALD. I think our concern is that the centers are now being
closed prior to having a place to send the girls now. Those of us who
work with the girls for many years have felt that. there was a need for
ministers if this is what you want to call them among both residential
and nonresidential centers.
Mr. KAPPELHOF. Through our office in the central coast area of Cali-
fornia we have had 5,300 girls and of the 5,300 girls only 54~ qualified
for Job Corps.
That means that the girls that we have worked with, there were
4,000 girls that we have ha.d to t.ry to provide some type of help for
and we have been doing support services both for girls who have not
gotten to the Job Corps as well as girls who have come home from the.
Job Corps-even those who ha.ve stayed only 1 week since the inception
of the program.
Mrs. GREEN. The fact is we're hardly reaching any of the boys or
girls who need help if we ta.lk about 35,000 out of 800,000.
Mrs. ROSENWALD. How do you rationalize closing centers before you
have a substitute to offer? This is the thing that concerns us more than
anything else in what we see occurring.
Mrs. GREEN. You can hardly serve as a center without having some
boys or girls to put into the center.
You have to make `the decision sometime. If you are going to do this,
it would seem like a pretty good time, and train personnel so they
would be available in the fall.
PAGENO="0629"
2061
The point that appeals to me very honestly in this proposal is that
it offers a diversity of programs. I don't know whether you ladies have
read the Yankovich report or the Harris report.
Mrs. DOLBEY. I have not read the Yankovich report, but I have read
the Harris report; yes.
Mrs. GREEN. The percentage of placement is what? If you read any
of these reports it seems pretty evident that these programs have not
been as successful-
Mr. PUOINsKI. Could we establish some criteria for measuring suc-
cess ? I don't think we ought to draw a conclusion that a particular Job
Corps center is unsuccessful because x number of young people failed
to complete the full course.
Mrs. GREEN. You outline the criteria you would like to use.
Mr. PuoINsKI. Not long ago I helped organize a wood finishing
school in Chicago. The need is so great for wood finishers, employers
were stealing these people from us b~fore they finished the course.
Statistically these kids never finished the course but they were al-
ready working. I wonder if we could not have some agreement as to
some criteria for measuring the success of these Job Corps centers
other than the abstract statistical figures that we have been bouncing
around here.
Mrs. LASDAY. That is what I was asking to speak toward. We think
that 3/4ths of our girls have successfully benefited from Job Corps.
I am probably the only WISC person who keeps statistics on the
local scene. That is the benefit of not having had a liberal arts edu-
cation. But we enrolled 409. To date we have had 154 category I which
is 391/2 periods; 19 percent are still in centers, and we have 18 per-
cent or 75 girls who are category 2 which comes to about 76.6 percent.
I can't even say that the 22.5 percent who did not stay 3 months were
not benefited by Job Corps.
Many of these girls left home who could not be interviewed by any
employer from personal appearances, ability to look somebody in the
eye, to even say their name and they came back after 6 or 8 weeks after
a family crisis.
Now why a person terminates never shows up but the girl who comes
home because she is the oldest of 11 children and the mother is hos-
pitalized is not a failure of the program, and this is the kind of thing
we see.
Mr. PuoINs1~I. If we are going to use the dropout rate as a criterion
for the judgment on the Job Corps, perhaps we should use the same
criterion and order all of our prisons shut down, because, according
to FBI statistics, the recidivism rate is 75 percent.
Are we wasting a lot of money with prisons if they are not going to
do any good?
Mrs. LASDAY. Then the colleges should be shut. down.
Mr. PucINsKI. I saw yesterday where Ford recalled 100 million
cars with defective brakes. I don't think they would shut down. I
do think this committee is going to have to find some better way, a
more effective standard for measuring the success or failure of the
Job Corps than using the figures we have before us now.
Mrs. DOLBEY. I would agree with you, sir, and I think we should
find some other plan for recruitment, even the urban residential cen-
ters, I think, as Mrs. Green said a moment ago, we oniy reach one in
PAGENO="0630"
2062
three or four tha.t we should be reaching-or a smaller number-that
we have to close the centers when somebody was objecting to having
the centers closed, we have to close those in order to get something else
started, and if we have this great gap of people that we are not reach-
ing somehow or other, we. have to have some kind of program of mo-
tivation to get to those and not duplicate and not take one from one
situation and put them in another in order to have a. center filled~
when we were arguing a. moment ago. we should not close the opera-
tion down until we had something else t.o take its place.
This is what I think is happening in this whole program. You are
stopping one thing before the other t.hing has started and the other
t.hing has not been proven to be at all sufficient.
Secondly, you have a great many girls who are not even touched.
Mrs. GREEN. If you are arguing you can't start anything until it. is.
proven, then we would never start anything.
Mrs. DOLBEY. I am not arguing that at all. I did not mean that or
I did not intend to say that.
I am simply saying, when you close a center, saying that there are
a grea.t n-rany girls who are not touched in urban areas, we will agree
with that that we should be reached and touched, but you say, you are
closing centers and you are going to start something in an urban area
to touch them.
I fail to see how that. is going to get many of the girls who have not
been touched into the centers by cutting down.
Mrs. GREEN. I have never fully approved gathering together S00
or 1.000 iroblem yoi.mgsters and putting them all in one place.
I don't think that educationally that. that is the best procedure. I
have never been persuaded that the Job Corps centers have proven
their worth. lVit.h the chairman's cooperation I am going to have a
couple of people here who are girls who we.nt into former Job Corps
centers. I think they will testify or, at. least they have told me that
they considerc~T the girls actually better off, before t.hey came to the
Job Corps center, that t.he Job Corps center actually harmecT the girls,
t.hat the program was worse than if they had never been at the .Job
Corps center at all.
I think we need to analyze just exactly what the Job Corps centers
do and try to find the best kinds of programs that we can. As some
previous witness testified, I think in particular Dr. Burns, many of the.
youngsters need the residential centers. If you have a diversity of
programs and if you ha.ve centers that combine the residential setting
for those youngsters, boys or girls who desperately need residential
care and if you then provide programs for youngsters who come in
the daytime with strong supportive services, more guidance and more
counseling, and on the job training vocat.ional education, I agree with
my colleague from Chicago about this being a good diversified
program.
I personally would favor turning all of the Job Corps programs over
to the State Department of Vocational Education and I think, in the
end that is what we are going to see.
I think we are going to have stronger vocational education depart-
ments. Congress is faced with a limited amount of money. Whether
you or I like it and I don't think our priorities in this country are
topsy turvy, but we have a limited amount of money.
PAGENO="0631"
2063
If I had my way, I would turn it all over to vocational education
and try to prevent the failures. Regardless of your views, I think it
has to be measured in terms of cost and a comparison basis. I think the
costs of the Job Corps have been outrageously high.
I think as persuasive as your statements are it could apply to any
programs we have had. It could apply to the YWCA, the Salvation
Army, their homes for unwed mothers, it would apply to anything
else.
Certainly you can prove something by a girl that you have touched
and whom you have helped. In any program you are bound to have
helped a*n individual. You can change the life of an individual but we
have to look at the total cost and the total number of people who are
helped.
I wish you ladies would really give your constructive attention to
suggestions on ways that. the programs could be changed and improved
instead of just defending a program which I say to you and I think
the chairman agrees with me, has absolutely no chance of being ex-
tended for 5 yea.rs.
There are going to be major revisions in this program because if
you don't get the mail asking for this, believe me the Members of Con-
gress do. There is no program I have ever run into that has received as
much criticism and in my judgment justifiably so as OEO.
There have to be changes or the American people won't support
it.
Mr. PUOINsKI. As I understand the testimony of Mrs. Dolbey, and
the other members of the panel here, you are not absolutely flexible
in your position nor are you here to say the Job Corps is untouchabie.
What you have said is that you think you have made some progress
and helped some young women, have had some dropouts.
As I understand your testimony today, your main concern is that
the Secretary of the administration has just summarily ordered a
shutdown of 58 centers when the administration is not ready to offer
workable alternatives.
The Secretary sat in that chair and listed some 15 or 20 camps that
he has operating which he said could be either prototype.s or coul.d
be used as a pickup for the youngsters who are going to be phased out
of the existing Job Corps.
We had Dr. Burns here the. other day of the Hull House Labor Camp
in Wisconsin.
He said he had 40 young men there and he flatly stated t.hat there are
10 too many. His limit is 30. These are young men who are dope ad-
dicts, alcoholics, and people with deep-rooted social problems that they
are trying to work with and help.
I hope the Secretary did not suggest that was going to be a receptiou
school for some of the overflow of the present Job Corps center. Your
testimony here is very valid. I, too, am committed to a phasing out of
the Job Corps where we can replace it with a meaningful, effective
residential skill center run by the State vocational educational
department.
We are going to have young people, boys or girls, who will be from
disadvantaged areas as well as from middle income families as well as
from `wealthy families where each youngster will be able to help the
other in a cultural and spiritual association.
PAGENO="0632"
2064
My objection to the present structure of the Job Corps is that it
brings 200 or 300 or 400 or 500 or 600 disadvantaged children together
with no opportunity to associate with other youngsters.
I am mindful that changes are needed. As I understand your plea
here, and the chairman has issued that plea and I have and other mem-
bers of the committee that Mr. Schulz proceed very cautiously with
closing down the Job Corps centers until he actually has something
operating to take their place.
Do I state your position reasonably accurately, Mrs. Dolbey?
Mrs. DOLBEY. Yes, I think, partly, and I will say partly because I
think all five of us who spoke have really felt very deeply that the
present program has not had the failure or has been the failure that
has been in the press or has been a part of the picture for many people.
I say that emphatically and very respectfully. Mrs. Green, for the
one or two people you would get here who would say t:hey have not.
fitted in and have not benefited and they felt it was a failure, we could
fill this room with if we were asked to with people who have `benefited
and this is perfectly all right.
I know you are going to find people on both sides.
Mrs. GREEN. May I say in all fairness I could fill the room with
people who have said there were failures.
Mrs. DOLBEY. I was merely trying to offset what I felt was your
argument. You had two people coming who felt they did not benefit.
Mrs. GREEN. I was not trying to play the numbers game.
Mr. PuorNsKI. I wonder if I can ask you ladies, and you come here
well qualified representing the organizations you do. isn't there really
enough room `and enough of `a job ahead of us to move in *both
directions?
Some of these conservation camps have been doing a good job and
some have not. I think the inefficient ones ought to be shut down. Carl
Albert sat in that chair last week and told us about two conservation
camps in the State of Oklahoma which he said for the first time were
bringing necessary repairs to the national forests and parks that had
been neglected for many, many years simply because there was not
anyone to do the work.
So it seems to me if the Nixon administration really wants to ad-
dress itself to the problems of indigent young people, they would, im-
prove on what we have now.
It does not make much sense to me after you have had a huge capital
investment with many of these Job Corps centers to shut them down
and then build additional mini or urban centers.
I would think the Nixon administration ought to take its poverty
program and then give the vocational educational people the kind of
funding that we authorized in the Vocational Educational Amend-
ments of 1968 to do as Mrs. Green said.
I agree with Mrs. Green. I think we ought to try to catch these young
people before they need a Job Corps center.
I think we ought to catch these young people long before they need
any help or before they become dropouts.
The administration is going to shuffle people around like pawns on
a chessboard and shuffle huge sums of money around as if the taxpayer
were obvious to this, but when you really look at the blueprint, what
have they changed?
PAGENO="0633"
2065
They have not really changed much. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman,
we ought to have the Secretary back here and we ought to find more
about the 58 centers which have been shut down and what he really
does plan.
I think these women make a very valid case when they say that young
people are going to be driven out of the Job Corps and there is no
alternative.
The Secretary said no young people dropped from the Job Corps
will not find another Job Corps. With all due respect, and I have the
highest admiration for Secretary Schulz, and I think he is an honest
and dedicated man who wants to do a good job, `but I think he has been
improperly advised.
On the basis of your excellent background, do you feel there is
enough of a job in `this country for both?
Mrs. DOLBEY. We do, sir, and this is what we tried to get across. We
just felt that trying to stop something and starting something new
was not answering the question.
Mrs. WEINER. There is another thing that worries me. Since I come
from the Detroit area, `although not the inside city I go back to my
mayor who talked this morning about the `social accounting we need
for some of these programs. I am not a sociologist, but I think we
have to find out from the sociologists who-how we can `assess social
programs in terms other than costs.
I think that we would find that, along with what Congresswoman
Green says, there are great needs for diversity of programs because
people have different means.
There are some young women, and I am only talking about them
because I don't really know much about the men's Job Corps, who need
to be lifted out from their environments pretty far away from home,
given a whole new look at life and then at themselves as individual
people and who may need exactly what the Job Corps as it is now with
all of its faults is giving them.
There may `be other young women there who do not need all of that
who need something less than that and there ought to be criteria set
up to separate some of these people.
There may be some who could use the residential experience while
they worked in their own communities. There may be some who need
only training programs without any residential setting `at all.
We can't lump all of these people together if we are really going
to do a job.
Of course we need the priorities in this country to be untopsy turvy,
and we need of course to try to put into our `basic education the things
we `are learning in Job Corps.
Mr. PUOINsKI. Let me give you an example of the lip service we get
when people say they are going to restructure an existing program.
They put new names on it, create new `structures, lose time on ongoing
programs.
Last year by unanimous vote in the House and the Senate without a
single dissenting vote we authorized the restructuring of the Voca-
tional Education Act.
We authorized $580 million for ongoing programs with a 15-percent
set-aside for the disadvantaged. We authorized $40 million on top of
that for disadvantaged. This is 15 percent of $580 million plus $40
million as a set-aside specifically earmarked for disadvantaged.
PAGENO="0634"
2066
\\Te authorized $30 million for neighborhood youth corps to give
a supportive lift to youngsters in school to keep them from dropping
out.
`We authorized $30 million for residential skill centers to do the very
thing that the Secretary in now trying to do in the Labor Department.
There is a serious question in my mind what business the Labor
Department has in setting up an educational system but that is another
matter.
All of these things are a matter of law. They have passed both
Houses of Congress without a single dissenting vote and `been signed
by the President. When it comes to funding, however, and this is where
it counts, what do we find? We find this administration saying, Well,
out of $580 million that we authorized for fiscal 1970 for all of these
programs, the administration has given us the grandiose sum of $260
million. Let's stop kidding ourselves. The machinery is here.
This poverty program is here-Job Corps is `here-close down the
inefficient ones, I have no fault with that-and then address yourself
generally to the vocational .progran'i.
Would that satisfy your concern?
Mrs. DOLBEY. We are trying to say we do not close down something
we know whether it had been perfect or not is another matter but it
has worked in many instances before you start something else, and I
am certainly one of those persons who believes then in innovation and
creativity and I think Mrs. Green knows that.
I am certainly interested as anyone else in trying something new, but
not scrapping everything before you try it. I think we have the mech-
anism and we have the potential for creating something new based on
the experience that we have, and in the meantime keep open what we
need to keep open to keep the girls occupied.
We are coming to a time of the year, gentlemen, I can assure you, it
is really going to be tough in cities this summer.
Mr. PucINsKI. What makes you say that?
Mrs. DOLBEY. Because I think this is the time of the year when young
people are trying to find some kind of occupation. They are going to
be on the streets and there are going to be more and more children on
the streets this summer because it is very difficult to find occupations
for the unskilled and the young.
`We are closing centers, letting more people out who really had a
taste of what it could be and having had a fulfillment of that.
Mrs. GREEN. Isn't it true there are spaces in all the Job Corps centers
that are not filled?
Mrs. DOLBEY. This is partly true but it is partly true because of the
screening and the restrictions.
Mrs. Toirr. This was not true of the women's centers. They were
filled. The boys' centers did have job vacancies.
Mrs. GREEN. The women's centers were filled to capacity?
Mrs. Tor'r. Yes, ma'am until they were closed.
Mrs. DOLBEY. I know the Huntington Center is scheduled to close on
May 23 and they are sending 107 girls to other places.
Mrs. GREEN. Isn't it true that the promise has been made that there
will be no youngster who is in a Job Corps center who will be turned
out on the street?
There will be other places found for them.
PAGENO="0635"
2067
Mrs. DOLBEY. This is a promise that has not been fulfilled. They are
coming home now. In fact some of the girls have come this last week.
Mr. PucINsKI. What is your answer?
Mrs. DOLBEY. It is a promise that has not been fulfilled and there are
people being let out with no place to go. I have here replies and letters
and telegrams from Kansas where I was on Friday in which girls are
being sent home in the next week and they have no place else to go and
no direction of where to go.
I don't know whether this holds over the country but I get individual
calls on it.
Mrs. GREEN. When is the Kansas City center closing?
Mrs. ROSENWALD. There are two things, this I have only heard from
a semi-official source that they were trying to encourage some of the
girls to go home.
I say encourage them, not tell them because they felt that there would
not be room for all of them in the centers. Secondly, we had screened
girls in our Kansas City area and they had signed contracts and were
ready to go and they are on the streets mainly with their supportive
services people mainly looking for jobs, and this was `part of the state-
ment I was going to make but they are quite disillusioned.
Mrs. GREEN. Since the inception of OEO and the Job Corps I think
Mary Hallaren will testify to this, that girls have been tested and
screened and waited for months to-
Miss HALLAREN. They waited ~ months.
Mrs. GREEN. That has always been true and it is not just predicated
on the Secretary's recent statement. Are there `actually instances where
girls have been told there is no place for them and to get out?
If you can document that give me the names of the girls and the
centers where it happened.
Mrs. ROSENWALD. I am talking about the girls who signed their con-
tracts. Rather than waiting for going, they now `have no hopes of going.
Mrs. GREEN. Why do you say that?
Mrs. ROSENWALD. They have then been told the Job Corps centers to
which they have been assigned will no longer exist. They `are sending
some to Job Corps centers that have been closed or reassigned.
Chairman PERKINS. We will get back to that in a moment.
I will call. on Mr. Ford.
Mr. FORD. I would like to pursue that a little bit further. I have
been informed that well over 3,000 potential enrollees for the Job
Corps that were at some stage in the processing were notified that they
would not be accepted for some period of time. The word has been out
to the people who were doing recruiting to stop recruiting so as to
relieve the pressure when they began closing the centers. Is that really
true?
Mrs. DOLBEY. That is true.
Mr. FORD. When we examine the number of people being affected
immediately by the statement we have to take into account, not only
the people who might be encoura.ged to go home or might become dis-
couraged and decided to go home, but also the unknown number that
will not be accommodated although they are waiting hopefully for
that to happen. We have already indicated to many young ladies that
for all intents and purposes for new people coming into the program
at this time there is no opportunity today to enroll in the Job Corps.
PAGENO="0636"
2068
Mrs. DOLBEY. That is true. I think what Mrs. Green said a moment
ago indicates a communications gap which I think is a. serious one.
Everyplace I have gone and I think the women here will back me. up
on it, thepeople are puzzled and confused about the next step. if it is
in the minds of the administration or the Job Corps itself that every-
body will be taken care of, that ha.s not filtered down to the local level
or the Jo'b Corps center level as of yet because there are people who are
feeling that they are going to `be left out of thei'e and they are going-
t.hey are being discouraged to come after they have been screened or
they are encouraged to go home.
I think this is a communications ga.p. The information has not got-
ten down to the local level. I found this in Kansas. They were holding
an indignant session, I might add, because they received no informa-
tion as to where the girls would be going after the center was to be
closed.
Mr. FORD. I am sure we will have an opportunity to go into this
more fully with the Secretary when he returns later this week, I have
been informed as late as today they are still unable to find a single
cent.er w-here a specific plan has been announced for the disposition of
the girls who are now at that center, who are not ready or will not be
ready to graduate, and who do wa.nt. to go on with Job Corps training.
There may be someone here in Washington who has a plan. I am sure
that Secretary Schulz was sincere when he said to Mrs. Green that. no
boy or girl will be without an alternative to the opportunity for con-
tinning at his particular place in the Job Corps.
But the problem we face in this legislation is t.hat we are now deal-
ing with a deadline for the shutdown of centers that will undoubtedly
occur before both Houses of Congress have had an opportunity to
act on this legislation.
The problem is here, and there is no conceivable, way within the
operation of this Government that anything could be put together
between now a~ 1 the end of this month or between now and the end of
next month, that is going to provide a. readily available alternative.
I do have a. question I would like to pose to t.he whole panel. I want
to apologize for not being here to hear your direct statements. This
may have been covered by someone and if it was I am sorry.
Mrs. Green has for a. long period of time, expressed a very genuine
concern, as she has here today, for the concept of this remote residential
center being the appropriate place to undert.ake the training or retrain-
ing of young people with the kinds of problems that. the. young people
in Job Corps come to us with.
There are many people who share her concern. I heard the. statement
she made just a few moments ago that this idea of putting 700 or ~00
young people. here, whether they are men or women, in a. cente.r that
is located away from the city and bringing them together as people
with problems is somehow not good educationa.l background practice.
Almost all of the outstanding colleges and universities in this coun-
try do exactly that. I am not sure anyone would not suggest there are
no problems with campuses today.
But for years in this country we had been developing the idea that
one of the ways in which you educate even people. from a fine home is
t.o ta.ke them from that surrounding and put them with a group of their
peers where they have to learn how to get along in order to survive
from day to day and to be happy in this strange environment.
PAGENO="0637"
2069
We raised our children under the assumption one of the benefits
they would have by going away to college would be exactly that sort
of thing.
Is there in fact a widespread feeling that the concept of developing
these centers as a separate or remote residential environment for these
girls somehow interferes with the end objective of providing a trained
citizen who will function well in society?
Mrs. KAPPELH0F. Many of the girls at the centers have problems.
Some are functional illiterates as compared to girls who read on the
fifth and sixth grade level.
These are kids that, if you mention school to them, as you recruit
them, hate school with a passion-everything they have known in the
traditional school structure. Yet as I talk to them when they come
home on leave the thing they enjoy most in the Job Corps are the
classes.
When I asked them why, they said it is the first time in their lives
that they ever attended school where they were not made to feel stupid.
They say that they know that they are all problem children but
within the Job Corps center there is encouragement where the girl has
motivation to proceed at her own speed, at her own rate of speed and
we have seen the girls who go in the space of 3 months up to 5- and 6-
level reading.
There is a difference between competing with your peer group under
similar circumstances than in a traditional school system where you
sit reading with the fifth grade level and try to compete with someone
who is reading at the 12-grade level.
I think this is one of the things that really works in the Job Corps
and I don't know what honestly happens there. Our probation depart-
ment in Santa `Clara County has said even the girl who has spent `as
little as 30 days in the Job Corps hack into the community she conies
and they are able to work with her in a way they have not been `able
to do prior to her going to the center. It is not just attitudinal but it is
lifting `her-4n the poverty culture you live really completely in this
culture and this is all you know, and sometimes you have to uproot
people bodily and force them into a situation where, for the first time
they are able to see themselves and they know why they Should not be
part of this group back `home, but this will never `happen, if you keep
them home.
Mrs. DOLBEY. I think what you were saying a moment ago is true.
We feel very definitely that the girls `benefit and the comparison, the
college `is `certainly a good one, because in one `way because we do send
people away to college.
I didn't go away to college. I stayed in `my own town `and went to
college. I sent my children away because I wanted them to `have that
kind of experience.
Now the difference between the two when you `are talking `about the
centers versus a `college is that you `have all of `one kind in the same
center, and you have maybe a variant, a `different kind `of group in a
college but you `have them `all on a certain economic `level that can really
pay their way.
They are not compared `to the group that is a part of the Job center
which we have just had illustrated and described for us.
PAGENO="0638"
2070
So in both cases you are getting them out of a situation in which
they have been known and worked into a new situation and it has
helped. I see no reason why just because there are 800 of these girls
that they cannot operate in the same way and arrive at the same bene-
fit that you can when you send some away to school.
Mrs. LASDAY. Mr. Pucinski made the statement about putting differ-
ent levels-instead of having homogeneous poor educational program
so they can help each other.
I am here to testify that these kids do help themselves. As a girl
becomes more proficient and has more maturity, she becomes an aide.
Long before one girl in Nebraska graduated, she was teaching key-
punch operators.
One girls was teaching speech to one of the operators at the begin-
ning of the program, and I was flabbergasted at this because the only
one who was able to correct the speech defect of one of our white girls
was a Negro girl who had gone there.
These young people have concern for each other and they learn how
to help each other. This is one of the biggest advantages Job Corps has
been. Our girls have come back to Richmond to work, many of the local
girls relocated from other areas are forming an alumni club and they
find out they want to be junior WICS and help other girls.
This is one of the biggest advantages that we see with this, but most
of all I think we have to be careful that we don't look at them as
homogeneous.
They are a variety, a wide variety of skill levels. Even the biggest
complaint I hear in reading Mr. Schulz' remarks about sending too
many high school graduates.
I want you to know most of the girls we have sent as dropouts reacT
better than our high school students. This is a sad thing but we might
as well face it.
Mrs. DOLBEY. This is really the policy upon which we are working
and let everyone teach in some of the underprivileged schools and ~ii
the ghetto areas where we have the children motivated from that area
to teach the others and they do an excellent job of it.
So for anyone to say because they are in a center, all one kind, pre-
sumably underprivileged that they can't learn from each other is just
not fact.
We are already using that principle in many cities.
Mr. FORD. I would like to call on the wide experience represented by
t.he group and the individuals here to ask for comments on one other
thing that has come to our attention in the past few days.
An allegation was raised before the committee last week that the
real reason for closing a particular women's center was that it was
spawning a ring of lesbians and that this was bad.
That was followed up this weekend by some stories in the press that
when read quickly by the average citizen across this country would
very readily lead him to believe that what we really ha.d here were
cesspools of immorality, I would think this would contribute to the
apprehensions that many people already have about the explosiveness
of bringing together all these problem people in one area.
Do you feel that much of a case can be made that incidents of the
kind that were talked about in the papers this weekend, given the kinds
of boys and girls we are dealing with, are going to be markedly differ-
ent when they go back into the environment from which they come?
PAGENO="0639"
2071
Mrs. DOLBEY. You are asking me-
Mr. FORD. In other words, to put it the other way, is the group living
involved in the Job Corps concept contributing to an increased inci-
dence of these acts that are deemed by broad sections of society to be
wholly immoral or is this merely something we would find whether
we had them there or somewhere else?
Mrs. DOLBEY. You were not in the room when I read my statement
in the beginning and I added to it the thought that we were-that my
statement had been written before these releases and before these
statements and I said I questioned the timing of them.
I used to learn in politics myself of how well you were doing `by the
amount of criticism that was aimed at you.
We decided we were doing pretty `well, at kind of `a low belt tactic
used against it.
I have been a part of political campaigns, several `of them and I
know in the last week `is when you always have to watch `for the low
belt, th'e low kind of aim that really can send you into a `tailspin.
I think we `must `be `doing pretty `well if we get this kind `of thing.
Mr. FORD. I take it that you are indi'cating th'at you are not im-
pressed with this being a valid criticism.
Mrs. DOLBEY. We are not. We know again that it happens in all
strata and segments of society. You can't listen to the TV or watch
TV without noticing that it happens in colleges `and other `places.
Mr. FORD. You ladies have already indicated in your testimony that
one of the real problems `that this committee has `is that we can find
hardly anyone who reports `to us on feedback from the level where
somebody w'ho participated in the program expresses themselves about
what the experience of Job Corps `has meant to them and what its
problems are.
That I can recall of you are the first group which has been here dur-
ing this series of hearings and has consistently made reference to the
kind `of feedback you get.
In the course of getting this feedback, have the kinds of problems
enumerated in these news stories come up with any frequency at all as
a problem the girls have faced?
Mrs. LASDAY. Norfolk WTICS had a little girl in November and
December at Poland Spring who insisted upon coming home and the
mother said she was to be `allowed to come home because of homosexual
advances, a little white girl who said the Negro girls were after her.
She was home exactly 3 weeks when she came into the WICS office
and asked Mrs. Jonak to rescreen her for Job Corps.' She said' where
do you want to go and the girl said I will be glad to go back to Poland
Spring. She said I would be somesick and I was so homesick I wanted
to see home, so I would say anything that would get me back home.
North Carolina `said for `a while they would send no girl's to Poland
Spring. The husband of our State coordinator, Mrs. Kempton, is a
psychologist. He went up there and interviewed the girls and felt
there was no basis in fact for the accusation of large numbers.
We have found that these girls like all other young people, and
adults, too, manipulate to meet their own emotional needs.
No matter how bad the home situation, no matter if there is no home
situation, just being in a strange environment one girl said if you could
tie them down for 60 days that there would be no problems `about their
PAGENO="0640"
2072
staying in Job Corps because it is a new experience and they are not
used to new experiences.
There are some problems but there is not a center that immediately
upon being aware of them does not try to isolate them.
I know my name is well known in most centers for having screened
them since May 1, 1965, about some of the problems and we have had
to try to do something about them and t.hey do try and they have been
very successful.
Mrs. KAPELHOFF. Many of us have gone to the centers and spent
time, not on a VIP basis, talking to staff and girls to really find out
what goes on at the centers.
I have been in every center on the western region and the girls will
tell you this when you talk to them and they feel so strongly-this
homesickness hits them in three phases at least with the girls, in our
group sessions, and I talked to 400 girls at Tongue Point who said if
there is some way you could force us to stay for 60 days we would not
leave.
It is a voluntary program.
Mrs. ROSENWALD. I am sort of an adjunct here but I came in response
to the blast on Saturday. In our north central region, out of 4,000 girls
screened, four were sent home because of suspected lesbian activities.
They were not proved; they were accepted at home and we did not
question it.
This was four out of 4,000 which I do not think would be outside
of the normal range. I don't know what the normal range is but it is
certainly not excessive.
Mrs. DOLBEY. I think a lot of us have not realized unless we work
with them that cultural background of the families where these girls
come from where there are certain practices.
We were talking the other evening about the opportunity of a family
given a four-bedroom apartment. They were used to two bedrooms.
They like the closeness and clannishness that comes from that kind of
a living.
They were not happy. Some of these girls who have come to the cen-
ters are perfectly happy being crowded. They are knowing for the
first time what it is like to have a room for themselves or to have one-
roommate or to have.a bed to yourself.
This is a kind of cultural background then from which they come.
Anybody coming into a situation and observing the practices-a girl
hugging a girl, or a girl sha.ring a bag of peanuts; that one girl was
called a lesbian because she offered a bag of peanuts-now, really, that
is ridiculous, but this is what happens when somebody comes in and
they will see what they want to see.
Those of us who have sent wires and telegrams are outraged really
and our reports will show this by the attacks that have been made
recently.
Those people are going to see what they want to see and they read
into it what they again want to read into it and they simply do not
understand the culture, the background, and frankly, they are out to
get rid of the program.
Mr. FORD. Thank you very much, and thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Stokes.
PAGENO="0641"
2073
Mr. STOKES. First, I would like to address my remarks to the very
excellent point which I believe Mrs. Weiner brought out. You might
be interested in knowing, Mrs. Weiner, I, too, was concerned as to
whether or not the Secretary of Labor in his evaluation had taken
into account any of the sociological factors involving these Job Corps
centers.
So when he appeared before this committee, I asked him pointblank
whether or not, in their evaluation, they visited the centers, whether
they had talked with any of the girls involved, whether they talked
with any of the staff people, whether they had talked with directors,
whether they had gone on the jobs and talked with any of the em-
ployers as to what their experiences had been.
I asked them whether th'ey had been out in the community to talk
then with the people in the community to find out what their relation-
ship was with the Job Corps center personnel.
The Secretary's answer to my question was that they wanted a
purely objective evaluation and therefore they relied upon the anal-
ysis and statistics furnished them by the two bureaus. I `feel just as you
feel that it is a rather sad commentary when we are evaluating pro-
grams that deal with human beings and we base them upon the pure
and abject statistical analysis and evaluations.
I think it is a rather sad `comment on this country when, in fact, we
are more consumed `with figures than we are with human values.
I am so glad `that you brought this point up because I think that
perhaps if we do adopt your suggestion, it well might `be if there is a
credibility gap, say, between those who advocate the Job Corps is good,
and those who advocate the Job Corps had been bad, and `that some of
our top sociologists in this country ought to be able to analyze and
interpret this program for us in a meaningful and objective manner
and `to pursue it a little further, in fact, I wanted to go on record at
this time and request that the chairman of this `committee invite some
of the top sociologists in this country in order that we might have the
benefit of their testimony in this regard.
I might ask for the comments of this panel with reference to a
further comment of Secretary of Labor and that is that one of the
factors in their evaluation which reflected to them the overall ineffec-
tiveness of the Job Corps w'as the fact that many girls who `had been
accepted never arrived at `the centers.
I wonder if you would have any comments on that.
Mrs. LASDAY. Mr. Stokes, I spoke to that earlier. We have come to
the conclusion in Virginia that if the preorientation for Job Corps
determines whether or not the girls go.
In central Virginia where Richmond WICS operates an orientation
program, our no-show rate runs about 3 percent and those are girls
who should not go.
We find out at the' last minute they are pregnant or something like
that. This includes the 4-year program. Some girls earlier did not go
to Job Corps because they did not know whether they had been
accepted.
The rate of 30 percent is not the same as we have heard quoted
around. The first 30 days whether a girl stays cannot really be effective-
ness of the center.
it is the effectiveness of their preparation to go to the Job Corps.
After 30 days the screener does not have much to do with it.
27-754--69---pt. 3-41
PAGENO="0642"
2074
Mr. STOKES. Could those facts and figures be furnished to the com-
mittee?
Mrs. LASDAY. I can furnish it. for Virginia and I have the figures
for the last 11 months but that, then, is `the best I can do.
Mr. STOKES. Thank you. I would like to have those..
Mrs. LASDAY. Shall I address them to you, Mr. Stokes, or to the
committee?
Mr. STOKES. Yes: to me.
Thank you very nmch, Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.
(The documents referred to follow:)
Chairman PERKIKS. I wish to place in the record at this point a
number of letters we have received from the following organizations:
The National Council of the Churches of `Christ; Women in Commn-
nity Service; Mrs. I. H. Wagner, WICS coordinator for north Mis-
souri; A large group of WIGS coordinators around the country; the
American Jewish Congress: the National Council of Negro Women,
Inc.: and Mrs. William E. Esfeld, certified graphoanalyst.
(The documents referred to follow:)
APRIL 29, 1969.
Rep. CARL D. PERKINS,
Committee Chairman.
House of Representatives,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR MR. PERKINS: Concerning the closing of Job Corps training centers, may
I speak as the past project director for Women In Community Service, to place
girls in these centers, and since I have no daughters of my own, I was reluctant
to send girls there without knowing where they would be living, their personal
needs, etc. I visited the Center in Clinton, Iowa in the summer of 1967 while we
had a girl there.
In January 1968 I visited the center in Los Angeles. The young lady that
showed ~me through was from your state of Kentucky. You would have been
proud of her; the manner in which she told of her story and the need she had
to attend the Corps for training, as she had no home in Kentucky to return. Her
mother died when she was nine, her father died when she was 13 and she had
had to make her way in the hills of Kentucky alone, untrained and unskilled.
She had accepted some one Lady's offer to take placement between 14 and 15
years of age. She had prepared herself for secretarial work, learned to groom
herself properly and learned how to budget her money. This could not be done in
the location that she formerly lived. She loved Kentucky and hoped some day to
return, but in the meantime she had to make a living and learn to be self
sufficient.
It is this intangible result that can not be put into statistics to make it look
good on paper. This situation of no skills so no job has been long coming and will
not be a short range job. Why, after such a short time of existence do men think
it should be shut down? By the same measure, why are not some of the regular
schools budgets cut since they have not provided these skills?
I am all for putting an end to spending "my" money where it is not needed,
but in my opinion closing these centers would be false economy. There are too
many other areas where budgets could be cut to serve a better purpose.
Sincerely,
Mrs. WILLIAM E. ESFELD.
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF NEGRO WOMEN, INC.,
Los Angeles, Calif., May 1, 1969.
Hon. CARL PERKINS,
7Jy~ Congressman.
House of Representatives,
Washington, D.C.
MY DEAR CONGRESSMAN PERKINS: I respectfully solicit your reconsideration on
the decision to close the Women's Residential Centers that service the vast rural
area of North Central Region.
PAGENO="0643"
2075
Residential Centers are the only hope for rural girls. Education is in many
areas poor or non-existent. Job opportunities nil. Clinton's rural location makes
it an ideal setting for youth from this area.
`I protest the closing of any of the Job Corps centers-unless and until it can
be done in a responsible manner. These are people . . . not mere statistics who
have been promised a program. It would be disastrous to jerk it out from under
them.
Respectfully yours,
JosEPHINE EDMONDS. Presidcnt.
MAY 5, 1969.
Hon. GAYLORD NELSON,
Chairman, Subcommittee on Employment, Manpower and Poverty, U.S. Senate,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR SENATOR NELSON: We deeply deplore the recent `attempt to discredit the
Job Corps by the presentation of isolated instances of unusual behavior and the
erroneous implication that `these are typical of Job Corps enrollees' `behavior.
Circulation of such stories is an immoral tactic which blatantly damages the
reputation of every young woman who ever attended Job Corps. The vast ma-
jority of `the 40,000 young women who have come to Job Corps have made and
a're making every effort to learn vocational skills so that they can escape the
welfare rolls and lives of further degradation.
We are indignant for them and entreat the critics of Job Corps to show some
respect for these young people whose only deviation `from the greater society is
that they are the poorest of the poor.
We commend the courage and compassion of those Senators who have intro-
duced a resolution `to prevent the mass shut-down of Job Corps centers through-
out the country. We urge other `Sena'tors to support this resolution.
Very truly yours,
Mrs. LEONARD H. WEINER,
President, National Cov'ncil of Jewish Women.
Miss DOROTHY I. HEIGHT,
President, National Council of Negro Women.
Mrs. DOMINGA G. CORONADO,
National Chairman, American GI Forum Ladies Auwiliary.
Mrs. JAMES M. DOLBEY,
President, Church Women United.
Mrs. NORMAN FOLDA,
President, National Council of Catholic Women.
AMERICAN JEwIsH CONGRESS,
New Yorl~, N.Y., April 17, 1969.
Hon. `CARL D. PERKINS,
Chairman, House Education and Labor Committee,
House Office Building, Washington, D.C.
DEAR REPRESENTATIVE PERKINS: The American Jewish `Congres?s expresses the'
hope that your Committee, in i'ts present `deliberation's on `bills to extend `the pov-
erty program, will not yield `to existing pressures `to emasculate that program in
the name of an arbitrary, un'discriminating economy drive. ~urta'ilmen't of the.
poverty program `today would be `a serious disservice to the country.
The compelling reasons why `the anti-poverty program was originally launched
are we'll known and need not b'e repeated i'n detail. It `is `sufficient to say tha't the'
destructive effects of `poverty-in urban slum's and in depressed rural areas-
leave millions of Americans with insufficient food, clothing an'd housing anct
condemn `them to lives of hopcie~'sness. Worse, their children come into a woi~1d.
in which their chance of developing `their full potential in `health, education and
gainful employment is gravely impaired.
The anti-poverty program has `been a well-meant effort to deal with that evil.
it is true that, as in other new programs, mistakes `have been made in theory~
planning and execution. Tjnfortuna'tely, many persons in places of authority have
seized on `these `mistakes as rea'son's to cut `baCk the program rather than ta
improve it. V
Perhaps the greatest mistake that has been made was to launch the anti-povert~r
program without pi o~ idmg it with adequate financing The primary need todiy
PAGENO="0644"
2076
is to provide financing on a realistic level. Instead, we find, both in the Adminis-
tration and in Congress, a strong drive to economize in this vital area.
The American Jewish Congress believes that the Federal Government's anti-
poverty program should be expanded, not reduced. We therefore urge the United
States Congress to enact `and fully finance legislation that will constitute a real
war against poverty rather than a mere expression of sympathy for its victims.
Yours sincerely,
GEORGE SOLL, Chairman.
JOB Con~s FACTS
The WICS volunteers in this region have submitted, for the Fiscal Years 1967,
1968, and `to the present time in 1969, just under 4,000 applications. One other
agency has screened girls, and they have submitted 175 applications to date.
Volunteer WICS recruit these young women in the cities, going into the so-
called ghettos, and the most rural of rural areas where poverty is shocking,
and apparently unnoticed. They meet the parents, they make friends with the
parents, they fully explain the Job Corps to applicant and family. They orient
the young woman so she will be prepared for group living, and for the home-
sickness that assails the girl on her first venture away from home. By observa-
tion on these visits they learn whether or not the young woman has a dress and
necessary lingerie for travel and for the first days at the Center until the destitute
girls can be supplied.
In the early recruiting we found young women carrying their belongings in
a grocery sack, so this is now observed prior to departure, and the need is
fulfilled-sometimes by stores, sometimes by interested business women's clubs,
and by many individual gifts.
The WICS volunteer writes her girl while she is in the Center. When she
returns for her earned leave, which is in six months' time, they renew the
contact. When she returns, whether she has finished her skill course, or has
dropped out, she is met by the WICS, taken to the Employment Office to
prospective employers, and followed until she is on the job. The contacts are
maintained for one year after the girl has left the center. She is advised on
budget, legal aid when necessary, and medical aid.
A welfare client from cradle to grave costs the taxpayer $125,000 to $175,000.
The operational cost of training a young woman at a Job Corps Center is $5,200.
The young woman trained at the Center becomes a taxpayer, and is off the wel-
fare roles. A trained corpswoman from age 21 to retirement will earn (at $3,000
a year) $132,000. Thus the Women's Job Corps Centers have shown a distinct
saving to the U.S. taxpayer.
Many corpswomen, to succeed, need clesparately to get away from home and
community. The needs of industry also require the relocation of girls. Job Corps
training is designed to give a young woman both the training and confidence for
relocation.
This morning I called our regional WICS office and asked how successful re-
location has been. Our regional office keeps no statistics on young women from
out of this state, but the WICS support service of Kansas City offers assistance to
all young women relocating here in Kansas City, and they had on file a list of
85 young women from 33 states in the Union, who have relocated here. The WICS
in Omaha report 73 relocations in their area, and we are confident that these
statistics can be shown for every one of the girls Centers. The young women
trained at the Clinton Job Corps Center have entailed 559 relocations.
All this work, for approximately 4,000 girls has been done by an army of 1,100
volunteers. The only salary paid for this phenomenal work is the salary of a
regional coordinator, her administrative assistant and a clerk typist.
A story typical of rural poverty, and the concern of the WIGS volunteer:
As related by the Springfield, Mo. WICS, "We `called on one of our Job Corps
applicants who lived back in the `hills' on a certain Sunday in spring to see if
she had things ready to leave for the Center the following Wednesday. Her home
w-as a three-room shelter. A `dead rattle snake hung over the gate as we went
into the yard. We were greeted kindly by the girl and her mother. Furniture in
the front room consisted of three double `beds with bare mattresses and a wood
burning stove in the middle of the room. As it was spring, the top of the stove
was a nesting place for a setting hen. The hen would rise up and cluck at us if our
conversation got too noisy. Around the room were piles of clothes and shoes. The
applicant said `she didn't have any clean clothes to take with her and no way to
PAGENO="0645"
2077
get them washed. Worker noted dresses tossed into the corners of the room, as
there were no closets in the home. We began to talk about what garments she had
tossect away. She had several nice dresses, purchased for 25~ at various rummage
sales. They were dirty, had unworkable zippers, or too long, and needing other
mending. The applicant tried on several dresses, we noted what repairs were
needed. Worker went out to her ear with two armloads of smelly clothes; these
she washed, mended, hemmed up, purchased new zippers and had them all ready
by the time of her departure. Worker had taken her a gift of shampoo. The
applicant had washed her hair, it was lovely. The girl stated her only good shoes
were high heels and didn't feel too good. They were, however, good sitting down
shoes. The applicant stepped on the airplane for a Job Corps Center looking very
smart and stylish. ______
MAY 3, 1969.
Hon. CARL D. PERKINS,
Chairman, House Education and Labor Committee,
Rayburn Office Building, Washington, D.C.
DEAR SIR: In our concern about the closing of any of the Job Corps Centers,
we asked Congressman Bolling what more could we do to underscore the benefit
to our nation as well as in the lives of our less fortunate young people through
this training.
He suggested we send you sketches of 3 or 4 girls-minus names-whom we
havescreened for Job Corps training program which we feel point out graphicafly
the need for keeping the Job Corps Centers intact. They have graduated and are
now working.
No. 1
Girl left school in 9th grade. Lived with grandmother: disruptive home en-
vironment. Entered Poland Springs Center Sept. 27, 1966; Trained in Electronic
Assembly, graduating Dec. 11, 1967; Employed by Micro Wave Co., Burlington,
N.H.; Background-apprehended for burglary, shoplifting. Referred to Juvenile
Court; Committed to Hilltop School for girls but placed on probation.
Where would she be today if Job Corps had not given her the chance to be
somebody?
Number 2
Daughter of very poor Negro Minister from small town-population, 1787; She
was only Negro in the high school. Very frustrating but she held on and grad-
uated; Entered Omaha Center; trained as Licensed Practical Nurse. Employed
at FitzsimmonS Hospital at Marshall, Mo.
Nothing for her in small town and no money for training elsewhere.
Number 3
Also from small community of 1406 with no job opportunities or money for.edu-
cation, this girl graduated from Omaha in health services and is now employed
at Clark Hospital in Omaha. She relocated there.
Ntimber 4
Lived with grandmother in small town off and on since she was 2 years old;
Father died when she was 11. Mother remarried; difficulty with step father;
Mother received ADC welfare for her till she ran away from home; Picked up in
another town on forged check charge; Was living with friends in worst part of
twn; Parole officer saw potential good character if be could get her away from
environment, but no place to send her except to jail unless Job Corps would
give her a chance; Had no clothes or luggage. WICS provided them; Graduated
from Omaha as Electronic Assembler. Raised from 10th grade to GED level and
passed it successfully on Aug. 21, 1968. Now has skill and personal attributes that
an employer would regard as an asset. Now employed in Olathe.
Specifics-Since May, 1967 screened 465 girls; approximately 75 graduates;
% working or married; 140 in Centers; close to 200 dropped out. They arc all
"ours" for one year after returning from the Centers. We are proud of their
achievement.
Congressman Perkins and Committee members these cases can be matched all
over the United States because of Job Corps! You see girls are given an oppor-
tunity to ewperienee a better way of life and learn to really get along with many
different people by living in surroundings that help them lift their sights, and
change attitudes. This cannot be done in mini centers in the ghettos where they
are allowed to go home every night or every weekend to the same environment that
has held them captive.
PAGENO="0646"
2078
From our 11 state North Central Region 4000 girls have been sent in the last
two and a half years to the four Centers in it. Most of these girls came from the
rural areas. Another reason the Centers should remain open! Now the administra-
tion is planning to close the 3 largest ones-Clinton, Iowa; Omaha and* St. Louis
even though 3 of them were over capacity and St. Louis with only 31 vacancies.
Excelsior Springs is over also.
We thought Job Corps was organized to rescve our disadvantaged youth from a
life of uselessness and crime when they were willing to leave home for this
training!
We know there is great need for both Job Corps and the mini centers as many
youth do not qualify for Job Corps.
But what a name the new administration could have made for itself if it had
chosen to make Job Corps better than ever and added the mini centers for those
who do not qualify for Job Corps!
We urge Congress to keep the Job Corps Centers open.
In Faithful Service,
Mrs. I. H. WAGNER,
WICK Coordinator.
WOMEN IN COMML~NITY Snnvicn.
Detroit, JlIick.. April 15~1968.
Representative CARL PERKINs.
Cli ainnan. House Education and Labor Coin in ittcc.
Washington, D.C.
DEAR Sin: We are encouraged with your forth-right statements about the~re-
tention of Job Corps amid all the very alarming news about the closing of six
women's centers. We do think that the Congress-who represents the people,
should he helping to make these decisions.
* It is inconceivable to us that these young women and men would be sent home
from their centers before the completion of their training. The government is
directly slapping them in the face and this may w-ell prove to be the final crippling
blow to them. In our four years of recruitment: talking with the girl, visiting in
the poverty-stricken home-encouraging both parents and girl to take advantage
of this self-help--this road to financial security through a job-we felt secure
in the government's promise of job training and human renewal. Now they are
to he sunimarily dismissed! This is dishonest.
* What u-ill be their frustration and depression? Will they ever try again? Will
they fall into the hands of the extremist? We do not have the answers to these
questions, hut w-e think that only despair and frustration can result from the
closing of the centers and a return home. A transfer to another center should
automatically occur in the event a center must close.
The residential center of the Job Corps has lifted the disadvantaged girl from
her crippling environment into a totally different one. It has show-n her "that
life can be different-that it has another side than the one I have known". Job
Corps has made dramatic life changes for these girls.
There are still girls in our community who need Job Corps but cannot leave
the city. For these girls the proposed "near-city" centers-operating five days a
week could be the answer. There are approximately 300 girls in our files now who
could be eligible for training near Detroit. We do hope that the plans for these
will be carefully planned before opening. Thus, many of the early mistakes of
Job Corps could be avoided.
We do urge the Congrens to keep the residential centers and to keep OEO
operating for we need innovative and creative persons in charge of our anti-
poverty programs. Congress holds the keys to the administration of responsive
government.
Sincerely yours,
DOROTHY TRACY,
Project Director.
COPIES OF LETTERS RECEIVED FROM JOB CORPS GIRLS
Dear Wics, I am writing to thank you for letting me getin the Job Corps. We
~s-ere Processed just like the army. When we first got here, we were given shopts
and placed in our rooms. I have a nice roommate, but she iskind of untidy. I clean
my part to show her to ry to pick up her things too. The food is excellent and I
hope that I gain a few extra pounds. Here there are good girls and the bad. I am
PAGENO="0647"
2079
going through orientation and then next week we shall have our classes. So far
I like it and hope to stay and finish my education.
This girl did graduate as a dental assistant.
Dear Mrs. - Hi! How are you? I am fine. Thinking of you and I decided to
write. I hope you have a nice Easter. I am doing good in my classes; filing, typing,
cooking, key-punch, sewing, business math, ~tc. I'm progressing nicely.
Everyone here is so nice. I h'ave'nt yet met anyone outside the center, too busy,
but I guess I will some day. We `are having King-Kennedy Memorials today. Very
saddening. I am going to send pictures when I get some. I wrote some poems and
they like them. They are giving me a position on the newspaper they're organizing.
I am very thankful for the assistance you gave me in putting me here. My hair
is growing and I'm gaining we'ight( smile).
This girl was on the "streets" before going to Job Corps!
Dear Mrs. - Just a few lnes hoping that you are in the best of health, and
living life to the very high'est. I was surprised and glad to hear from you. I `have
been scheduled into my classes today and 1 plan on studying real `hard so that
I can give Detroit a reputation for sending nothing but honor students up here.
Well I'll close because I am getting ready to go to dinner and then sw-imming
and then to one of the other activities offered up here that are lots of fun. Please
anwere soon.
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF THE CHURCHES OF CHRIST IN THE U.S.A.,
New York, N.Y., April 25, 1969.
Hon. CARL D. PERKINS,
Chairman, Hov~se Committee on Education and Labor,
House of Representatives, Washintgoa, D.C.
DEAR MR. PERKINS: The "control of crime" is enunciated as a matter high on
the list of priorities of the present Administration. When speaking of developing
programs to control crime, as the Administration shall ask you to do, I respect-
fully request that you speak to control-indeed, to stop-the crime of closing
down Job Corps Centers in various parts of the nation.
These Centers are helpful. Not only are they offering job-training opportuni-
ties to thousands `of hard-core unemployed and unemployable, they are also pro-
viding positive activities for numbers of persons who are adjudicated delinquents
and/or near delinquents. The decision to close the Centers provides these youth
with idleness. This is morally culpable behaviour because, of necessity, the action
militates toward revisiting the youth with frustrations and disillusionments. It
invites a re-activation of whatever social hostilities to which some of them may
have been victim. Justice weeps at the feet of this action.
The present Administration has repeatedly proclaimed that it will not make
grandiose promises to the black, the poor, and the otherwise disadvantaged, lest
it raise hopes which cannot be fulfilled. This has the ring of sobriety. If, however
(as is the case now), the Administration concurrently and voluntarily engages
in action which dashes hopes already moving toward fulfillment, the picture
presented is at `once pathetic and ludicrous.
Cut the war expenditures. Yea, cease the war entirely.
It is impossible to believe `that our governmental authorities are either as
naive or as calculatingly indifferent as this injudicious action implies. Yet, one
or the other must surely be true.
Please use your good offices, and the influence and authority vested in you to
speak to the rescinding of this macabre decision.
Sincerely,
Rev. ROBERT C. CHAPMAN,
Director for Racial Jvstice.
`Chairman PERKINS. Mrs. Rosenwald, I am sorry that you `did not
make the formal statement but I have `some questions I think you
know something about. I have always been a deep believer, a great
believer in the Job Corps. I think it has done a wonderful job and I
personally feel that we do not have facilities in this country to substi-
tute for the Job Corps presently, that we are dealing with the young-
ster at the `bottom o'f the `barrel that requires special training, `that we
do not have the facilities ether than the Job Corps to give this special
PAGENO="0648"
2080
training at this stage of the game and vocational educators have
always told me that the problem child which the Job Corps deals
with that they were not able to service him because they have always
taken the cream of the crop and our facilities are short not only in
vocational educational work but we do not have the trained instructors
to deal with this problem even though we have the centers presently,
and we are developing a lot of know-how in trying to deal with this
problem child and we are going to interchange it with the secondary
and elementary schools so we can stop the dropout problem or at least
slow down this problem or arrest the dropout problem with the hope
that in the future we can eliminate the dropout problem to a great
degree at least.
it seems to me a terrible waste of time and money after we have
made this huge capital investment to close down the centers, and to my
ways of thinking we are turning our backs on these youngsters.
I am just stating my own belief and I think the record thus far
bears me out. To my way of thinking, we are not going to be able to
place 50 percent of these other youngsters in these minority residential
centers, no matter how small or large they may be. I think it is a ter-
rible mistake we are about to make.
I am trying to convince everybody I can convince, just as you ladies
today are trying to do.
Now Mrs. Rosenwald, tell this committee what evidence you have
available or anyone else when you get through who can support this
statement that many of these kids are returning to their homes or will
return to their homes and will not be placed in other later centers.
Mrs. ROSENWALD. The evidence about those returning home is just
what I would get out of Kansas City. The only firm evidence that I
have is that the girls who have been screened in Kansas City and now
told that in our area and are waiting-they were waiting for centers,
but there will not be centers for them because the center to which they
were assigned will be closed.
I think it was Mr. Ford who said apparently there was no communi-
cation and as far as facts on that, I do not have those facts. What I
really wanted to do and was my obligation really to the women whom
I represent here was to see that a telegram sent by 100 women-may
I have the privilege of saying this?
Chairman PERXINS. Yes.
Mrs. ROSENWALD. Hundreds of volunteers from Kansas, Missouri,.
Minnesota, Colorado, Montana, Nebraska, Idaho, Utah, and North and
South Dakota-in other words the north central region-sent a wire to
the President and we have other copies and the wire to the President
to which they have received no acknowledgement.
It is only five lines. I hope we can get it into the permanent record.
I can give the stenotypist the names.
Chairman PERKINS. Without objection that will go into the record.
Mrs. ROSENWALD. Shall I read it?
Chairman PERKINS. Just place it in the record.
(The document referred to follows:)
PAGENO="0649"
2081
TELEGRAM
APRIL 25, 1969.
The PRESIDENT,
The White Hovse,
Washington, D.C.:
`Crises created in lives of our young job corpsmen by closing of their centers
calls for immediate remedy. Have suggested WICS contact foundation to back
formation of refugee camps for these American displaced persons to supplement
present administration plans. Disillusionment rampant. Corpsmen bewildered as
to next step now that "last chance" removed. Confidence in Government further
diminished by this breach of contract.
From:
Mrs. Harry Olden, Kansas State Coordinator, Wichita, Kansas.
Mrs. J. W. Haupt, Coordinating Council, Wichita, Kansas.
Mrs. Herbert Van Gieson, Support Service Chairman, Wichita, Kansas.
Mrs. Frank Schloegel, Project Director and President P00W, Kansas
* City, Mo.
Mrs. I. H. Wagner, State Coordinator, Northern Missouri, Kansas City, Mo.
* Mrs. John H. Caidwell, President, Churchwomen United, Kansas City, Mo.
Mrs. Sidney Ginsburg, President, CJW, Kansas City, Missouri.
Mrs. Hans Archenhold, Assistant Project Director, Kansas City, Mo.
Mrs. A. L. Weiser, Project Director, `Springfield, Missouri.
Mrs. Walter Niles, State President, CWU, Lees Summit, Missouri.
Mrs. Ralph Rhea, Project Director, Billings, Montana.
Mrs. Edwin `Stickney, Assistant Project Director, Miles City, Montana.
Mrs. Mike Geiger, Project Director, Glendive, Montana.
Mrs. George Lindgren, Project Director, Great Falls, Montana.
* Mrs. J. Dewitt Safford, President CWU, Billings, Montana.
Mrs. Kenneth Martinez, Home Visitor and Recruiting, Billings, Montana.
Mrs. Robert Abel, Project Director, Helena, Montana.
Mrs. Donald Aiweis, CJW, Billings, Montana.
Mrs. W. W. Clannin, Coordinating Council, Denver, Colorado.
Mrs. J. Russell Andrews, Assistant Project Director, Denver, Colorado.
Mrs. Fred Schwartz, Project Director, Denver, Colorado.
Mrs. W. Everett Sullivan, Assistant Project Director, Denver, Colorado.
Mrs. Harold Leight, Convenor, Denver, Colorado.
Helen Marie Black, Public Relations Director, Denver, Colorado.
Mrs. Velma Moore, President NCNW, Denver, `Colorado.
Mrs. Lucy Nevels, WICS Coordinator, Lincoln Nebraska.
Mrs. Marie Folda, WICS volunteer, Omaha, Nebraska.
Mrs. Zoe Numbers, State Coordinator, Boise, Idaho.
Mrs. R. A. MeGuire, Project Director, Idaho Falls, Idaho.
Mrs. John Ricks, Project Director, Twin Falls, Idaho.
Mrs. R. C. Biggs, Project Director, Pocatello, Idaho.
Mrs. W. L. Huffhines, WICS Office, Springfield, Missouri.
Mrs. R. E. Swenson, Convenor, Springfield, Missorui.
Mrs. Joe Gailey, President, CWTJ, Springfield, Missouri.
Mrs. Isadore Lotpen, NCJW, Springfield, Missouri.
Mrs. H. L. Woidridge, NCCW, Springfield, Missouri.
Mrs. Herbert Smith, NCNW, Springfield, Missouri.
Mrs. Charles Van Alstine, Project Director, Casper, Wyoming.
Mrs. L. J. Schroeder, Project Director, Thermopolis, Wyoming.
Mrs. Zane Brown, Project Director, Laramie, Wyoming.
Mrs. Albert Brown, Project Director, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Miss Florence Brugger, Counselor, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. L. J. Messer, Convenor, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. L. N. Bower, President, Catholic Deanery, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. G. L. Collins, Representative, Negro Women, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. Elmer Baruhill, President, OWU, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. Opal Palmer, Interviewer, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. Albert Hamershky, Public Relations, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. Robert *Sittig, Liaison, Deanery, Council Catholic Women, Lincoln,
Nebraska.
Mrs. Richard Johnston, Cochairman, Deanery, Council Catholic Women,
Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. Roy Cameron, Volunteer, Lincoln, Nebraska.
PAGENO="0650"
2082
Mrs. Lucille Armstrong. Support Service, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. Ralph Cuca, District Chairman Coordinating Council, Lincoln,
Nebraska.
Mrs. Edward Pratt, Community Affairs, DCCW, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. E. Ward Sims, Director, Home Visitor, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. N. Bruce Hazen. President CWU, State of Nebraska, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. Wayne Bunch. CWIJ, Hastings, Nebraska.
Mrs. C. 0. Michaels, Chairman, Screeners, Hastings, Nebraska.
Mrs. L. A. Enersen, NCCW, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. Larry Goracke, Lincoln Deanery, NCCW, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. Sidney Katz, Volunteer, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. Oscar Mallory, Volunteer, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Miss Marilyn Maney, Volunteer, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. Harry Miller, Volunteer, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. Glen Peterson, WICS Director of Finance, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. Bridget Phillips, Director of Volunteers, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. Jerry Robinson, Volunteer, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. Frank TJllman, Volunteer, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. Erdice yearly, Volunteer, Fairbury, Nebraska.
Mrs. James Roberts, Volunteer, Hastings, Nebraska.
Mrs. Frank Vapp, Volunteer, Hastings, Nebraska.
Mrs. Wilbur Johnson, Volunteer. Columbus, Nebraska.
Sister Maurine Merrigan, Volunteer, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. Monette O'Brien, Volunteer, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. Loyal Payne, Volunteer, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. Albert Schretinger, Volunteer, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. Perry Denna, Volunteer, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Mrs. John Krin, Screener, Beatrice, Nebraska.
Mrs. Mable Olson, Screener, Beatrice, Nebraska.
Mrs. Don Brittain, Coordinating Council, Wichita, Kansas.
Mrs. George Hariman, Convenor, Grand Forks, North Dakota.
Mrs. Robert Rosenwald, Volunteer, Kansas City, Missouri.
Mrs. Louis Vaughan, Assistant Project Director, Kansas City, Missouri.
Mrs. Dorothy Gill, Volunteer, Sisseton, South Dakota.
Mrs. Laverna Ostroot, State Coordinator, Sisseton; South Dakota.
Mrs. Howard M. Mason, Project Director, Vernal, Utah.
Mrs. Frances Camizzi, Volunteer, Cedar Rapids, Iowa.
Mrs. Ruth Snyder, Volunteer, Perry, Iowa.
Mrs. Jack Watson, State Coordinator, Des Moines, Iowa.
Mrs. W. T. Johnson, Project Director, Des Moines, Iowa.
Mrs. Betty Berrie, Project Director, Dubuque, Iowa.
Mrs. Jean Gillespey, Volunteer, Des Moines, Iowa.
Mrs. Darlene Blunk, Volunteer, Des Moines, Iowa.
Mrs. Kay Bly, Volunteer, Des Moines, Iowa.
Mrs. Kenneth Roberts, Volunteer, Des Moines, Iowa.
Mrs. Rosemary Drey, Volunteer, Des Moines, Iowa.
Mrs. Genevieve Dutt, Volunteer, Des Moines, Iowa.
Mrs. Loris Thomason, Volunteer, Des Moines, Iowa.
Mrs. Phoebe O'Reilley, Volunteer, Des Moines, Iowa.
Mrs. ROSENWALD. I have now one other wire which caine as a result
of Saturday's revelations.
Chairman PERKINS. Without objection it is so ordered.
(The document referred to follows:)
The PRESIDENT,
White House,
Wa~hington, D.C.:
We are stunned by the base cruelty in the release of the report-Job Corps
scandals. Fine young women returning to their home communities will be labeled.
Our dedicated volunteers of women in community service have not been unaware
of isolated cases such as the report headlines. We have worked in close relation-
ship with directors and staff of Job Corps centers. We have not questioned a
dismissal on such grounds, neither have we rejected the unfortunate young women
dismissed. We have aided them in finding work, medical assistance, and to the
best of our ability in finding a new way of life. We are also aware of the condi-
PAGENO="0651"
2083
tions on the high school and college campuses in this land and are confident that
girls from Job Corps centers by comparison would be in a favorable position. We
beg you to turn your search light off the poor and disadvantaged who have no
one to speak for them and if you must, direct focus on the campuses of the afflu-
ent. They can defend themselves against such brutality.
From: Mrs. Frank Schloegel, President, Council Of Catholic Women, Diocese of
Kansas City, St. Joseph. Mrs. Sidney Ginsburg, President, Council Of Jewish
Women, Kansas City, Sections. Mrs. Louis Vaughan, Representative Of The
Council Of Negro Women
Mrs. I. H. Wagner, WICS Coordinator For Northern Missouri.
Mrs. John H. Caldwell, President, Churchwomen United, Kansas City, Missouri.
Mrs. ROSENWALD. May I give just one case history? It is about three
lines. A girl who left school in the ninth grade, lived with her mother,
had a background, apprehended for burglary, shoplifting, referred to
the juvenile court, committed to the juvenile court-the Hilltop School
for Probation, went to Poland Spring, trained in electronic assembly,
graduating, employed today by the Microwave Co. in Burlington, N.H.
Chairman PERKINS. If any of you ladies can shed any light on the
question I asked as to whether many of these youngsters would be
turned out to go home instead of being placed in the centers. I would
like to hear your comments.
Mrs. LASDAY. I am the Virginia coordinator for Women in Com-
munity Service, National Council of Jewish Women, Richmond
section.
Our first direct experience was the return last Tuesday-walked into
our office-a girl who graduated from Clinton Job Corps Center who
came home 3 months too soon. An eighth grade dropout, completed
her eqüivalencies, had some experience on work center, but cannot be
employed in Virginia; yet she was interviewed in Boise, Idaho, and
they said this girl was now employable.
She is already typing 40 words and still can't pass the test. You
asked what kind of things are being sent to *the girls in the center
typically. It is all in the newspapers that Poland Spring is one of the
centers to be closed down by June 30, they said if they close it that
we will be transferred to another job center that will not be closed or
transferred to a program in our home town vocation. I am taking up
cosmetology. I would like to finish my course since this is what I want
to `do. Give inc some advice.
I would certainly appreciate it.. This girl was a ward of the Henrico
County Welfare Department, married sister 18 or 19, no place for her
to go even if there was any kind of program to put her in.
Our answer was stay put, don't panic, don't give up. Mr. Schulz has
said there will be a place for you. We don't know whether there is
or not.
Chairman PERKINS. I have listened a.ttentatively and I personally
intend to make a statement on the floor of the House tomorrow oiithe.
closing down of these Job Corps centers because there is no available
center in this country that is going to take the place of these residential
centers where you need to keep your hands on these girls 24 hours, a
day.
I will make my view known. I do not know then what the Con-
gress is going to do but I think the Congress is going to have a good
chance to vote on this issue this year.
Personally I want to thank all of you distinguished ladies for your
appearance. You have been helpful to the committee.
PAGENO="0652"
2084
You have made your positions very clear and hope to welcome you
back here again sometime.
Thank you very much.
Without objection I will place in the record a statement and some
letters.
MAY 6, 1969.
Representative CARL PERKINS,
U.S~. House of Representatives,
Washington, D.C.
DEAn Mn. PERKINS: Being a newly elected member of the Corporation of
Women In Community Service I heard a report of the testimony of Mrs. DoThey,
Mrs. Coronado, & Mrs. Kappel'hoff before your Congressional Committee yester-
day. I would only like to add that since I am a resident of Phoenix, Ariz. &
elected particularly to represent Indian & Mexican-American girls needs I drove
through all the border communities-Yuma, Ajo, Sells, Nogales, Sierra Vista,
& Douglas and the Indian Reservations-Pima, Papago, Zuni, & Navajo besides
interviewing at the Boarding Schools in Flagstaff, Winslow, & Holbrook.
May I say that for the Mexican-American girls, this opportunity to be trained
in the Job Corps for Women has meant their only opportunity to escape the
migrant treadmill & the specific problem of early marriage & the cultural demand
to drop any job of responsibility to answer the slightest call of the family. Even
girls that do not graduate but are only in a training center for two weeks are
changed for life and, often their families too.
`So far as the Indian Reservations are concerned, the first constructive changes
on the reservations have been a~compli'shed by O.E.O. programs and leadership.
The Job Corps program for the boys, even more than for the girls, ha~ meant a
hope of cutting their 80% unemployment rate in a generation. The girls are a
real hope for newly adjusted, functioning Indian women able to live in on & off
reservation cultures.
With the new on-reservation schools, community colleges, and tribal industries
that use and offer employment where the Indians live. Anyone who has not
traveled the far reaches of the reservations can hardly imagine the distances!
:1 `have worked in this program since its inception and like all Women In Com-
munity Service, have innumerable experiences with Negro, Indian, and Mexican-
American girls who could not give you their name without prompting before
Job `Corps `and after training would be poised appea'ring before your committee.
Wishing you well in your leadership of your Congressional committee.
Sincerely,
Mns. EVERETT B. LUTHER, Phoeniw, Ariz.
REDLANDS, CALIF., May 2, 1969.
Congressman CARL D. PERKINS,
Chairman of the House Education and Labor Committee,
House Office Building,
Washington, D.C.
`DEAR CONGRESSMAN PERKINS: I am so glad to see that you are opposing the
closing of the 59 Job Corps centers.
We do hope that Job Corps will `be retained under the O.E.O., as originally
conceived. The proposed skill centers would not remove the youth from his, or
her, environment, which is the `basic need of most of them.
Too many millions of dollars and hours of volunteer effort `have been put into
the Job Corps to scra'p it after only a few years trial. Thousands of young people
have been able to get their equivalent of a high school diploma, `while securing
job training, which makes it possible for them to be self supporting. Surely the
continued operating cost will only be a fraction of the original cost, or that of
instituting a new program.
Let's keep the Job Corps centers open!
JES5AMINE HACKER,
WIC$ Representative.
PAGENO="0653"
2085
DENVER, CoLo., May 4, 1969.
Hon. CARL PERKINS,
House OyJZce Building,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR C0NGRESSM~N PERKINS: I am very much concerned about the proposed
closing of many of the Women's Job Corps Centers.
I have worked for four years as a volunteer, giving hundreds of hours, screen-
ing girls for Job Corps and have listened to hundreds of stories of deprivation
and frustration.
For nearly two of these years I have worked with Support Service to girls
when they return, graduates and non-graduates alike. We wish you could share
the success stories we have seen of girls now holding jobs and self-respecting
tax payers, because of Job Corps training.
To me these girls are persons not statistics.
We find that local programs, by business and others, do not concern themselves
with girls and their needs.
Three of the four centers in the North Central Region are scheduled to be
closed. What is left for our girls?
Field trips I have taken into rural areas of our state have shown the dearth
of opportunity and training in rural areas especially. The Clinton, Iowa Center
was well suited to these rural girls. I beg your recommendation of continuing
this center.
Sincerely yours,
Mrs. ALVIN R. YORDY.
WOMEN IN COMMUNITY SERVICE, INC.
WINTER PARK, FLA.
Project Director: Mrs. Fred R. Prouse
STATEMENTS TO SUPPORT THE WOMEN'S JOB CORPS
1. The poor have no chance to speak for themselves. They have no measure
of comparison. I have visited the home situations from which these young women
come. The opportunity to go to Job Corps often brings immediate change in them.
I believe this is the first ray of hope these young people have had to obtain
training in skills which will enable them to become self uupporting, tax paying
members of the community.
2. Those who wish to close these centers have not recruited, screened nor even
met any of these applicants, whom, because of lack of early education and ad-
vantages are at a loss to know where to turn for help which will help them to
help themselves. Job Corps is the rehabilitation of the whole person. As in the
case of children aided by Head Start, these young adults have been culturally
deprived. In Job Corps they are learning about Home and Family. This training
includes Health, Hygiene, Nutrition, Family Planning and Child Care. The
Corpswomen will be the Mothers and Homemakers of tomorrow. The Job Corps
is a valuable training area for this.
3. These trainees `benefit by being removed from the present environment.
Often `the home and neighborhood is disruptive to study and learning. For
most of these young people there has never been a place for study. Usually there
are from six to ten children and one or more adults living in three or tour small
rooms with no privacy, no regular meals and no supervision, since the mother
is usually employed and the father either without employment . . . or having
abandoned `the family. The young adult is `often left in charge of younger Inem-
bers which causes absence from school. It is important that these young people
be located `away from `home. If she were to return each weekend it would defeat
our intent, because so fast as we could rehabilitate her she would fall back into
the old patterns. The fastest rehabilitation is accomplished when the girls are
placed in a structured situation, under supervision, away from the associations
which have `been to her disadvantage. The expense of travel is minor, since it
helps do the job.
4. The educational facilities at the centers are excellent and `the staff are to be
commended for the work they are doing with `the hardest group in our country
to work with. Previously our schools were not able to do the job of training these
young people and society has made them feel like failures because they had no
High School diploma.
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2086
5. The staff members of the centers are made up of persons who are chosen be-
cause they care about people and many are capable of researching new training
methods which will avoid future problems.
(a) The Corpswomen tell me this is the first time they feel anyone has cared
for them. This helps to set up success patterns and give them confidence.
(b) The classes are limited in number, the members work at their own
speed and an instructor is present to serve answers when the need for ex-
planation and information is needed.
6. The Counseling Service for groups and individuals has had to be cut because
of lack of funds. Actually this service should be enlarged, since these young
women need to share and get help in solving their problems of loneliness and diffi-
culty in fitting into the situation of learning and discipline. The counselors report
that group sessions are very beneficial in learning to live and work with others.
THE FUNDS SHOULD BE INCREASED IN THIS AREA.
7. The experience of travel to the Center is important to the candidate. She
sees an America that she never knew existed. This opens a vista which creates
a desire to be a part of this greater sphere of experience. It creates a goal. Some
of these women who have been entertained in my home, express a desire for a
home and family like mine. Until this experience they have felt they would never
have an opportunity to live better.
S. The Corpswomen are taken shopping and taught to select appropriate cloth-
ing and how to spend their money prudently. Up to this time most of them have
neither bad money nor ability to manage it. i\Iost of them come from homes where
they have had only the bare necessities of life. There was no money for proper
clothing and this lack of dress is often the cause of school drop-out. In the center
yardage is given and sewing machines and instruction made available. Many times
they arrive home in garments which they have made and which are becoming
and appropriate.
9. The centers have problems . . . but what schools and colleges do not? The
Lesbian problem is encountered everywhere. The women with this problem come
from homes where there is little or no moral training. It is a problem of society
and, I believe, should be treated where it exists . . . this treatment to begin
by removing the person from the environment which caused it. Here again, it is
the part of the community with no experience in the field, which is so vocal. The
centers should give us a good idea of the society we live in and should be doing
something to prevent and correct.
10. The Job Corps should be used as an area to research existing problems and
work out solutions to them. Much of the cost could be credited to this research
for methods to eliminate crime and delinquincy. We cannot expect to profits in
dollars and cents. This is an investment in people and in American Citizenship.
11. If we relate this Program to the criterion of new business, we must realize
that it is not good business to cut back in the first four years when the business
has produced so much progress as the Job Corps has. This investment in people
will take many years to show the full return for our investment. The investments
here should not be charged to names on lists but credited to HUMAN LIVES
SALVAGED. Why is it that because of a new administration in government we
must cut out previous programs? We should be building America together.
12. The Corpswomen as future mothers will `be improving the living condition
of their families. After Job Corps Training `we evaluate the candidate by the job
she gets and her success in keeping that job. This is a matter of what statistics
show. But-I see the home's they come from and then see the same home after
they return. I see the effect on the family (`other younger children have re-
mained in `school after `seeing `the advantage of `education). I see the young
woman's mother and hest her tell of the clean, neat house and improved cooking.
This is evident even though the girl may not graduate from Job Corps. I have
known some who come home to `re-register in school. Sometimes it takes a long
period before a girl finally obtains a job. I have observed how society reacts to a
`black person who comes on a job, better trained than the white. I have spent
days with these young women trying to obtain job's. Also I have had to relocate
some of them in the north after finding nothing `to do here. This makes work for
our State Employment `Service or Youth Opportunity, and sometimes makes them
unhappy. Before the Job `Corps the State Employment Service in my community
was segregated.
13. The young women graduates of the Job Corps Centers are very happy with
the Centers. They express a desire to go back, if only for a visit. I have seen one
or two who did not want to return but this was usually because they did not
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2087
stay to complete the training and graduate. Their appreciation comes later when
they mature.. . but this is true of many of us.
14. We are Volunteers-Women in Community Service. I can't imagine anyone
4iscarding all the volunteer hours which have been put into this service program.
It has given us (the volunteers) an opportunity to help heal some of the wounds
society has inflicted on the poor. It has been a priviledge to cross the lines of
society and meet new friends who have given me a great deal in spiritual reward.
This cannot be measured in money, which is not the medium of exchange which
brings real happiness.
Hon. CARL D. PERKINS,
Chairman, House Committee on Education and Labor,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR SIR: This morning I sent you a copy of a letter addressed to Senator
Joseph Hart, after having seen the TV program in which you both participated,
and discussed the Job Corps Centers.
This letter is to express my regret for my mistake, as since then I realized
that you are a member of the House and not the Senate, and that you are the
Chairman of `the House Education and Labor Committee, and `thus very n1uch
interested in `the Job Corps training program.
May I say that a letter was sent to the local office of the Regional Administra-
tor of the Labor Department inquiring about opportunities which might exist,
or suggestions his department might be able to make concerning what we can
do with the young people who are waiting and those who are anxious to apply
for training. It was most difficult for me to understand his answer which was
made by telephone-which was that he has received no directive that the Job
Corps Program would be under their jurisdiction, and he told us honestly th'at
he had no suggestions whatsoever. Our office has also received `calls from the
Youth Opportunity Centers asking us if we have discontinued screening, as they
also have no information-and they are expecting all the young men back and
are trying to find other methods of securing training.
This is in the way of an apology for my ignorance of your position although
I have been acquainted with your name for a long time. Actually I was thorough-
ly interested in what you were saying that I did not pay too much attention to
your title.
All of us volunteers hope that you and others can help to convince the President
to keep the centers open.
Respectfully yours,
MRS. SAui~ B0IN,
Project Director, Women in Community Service.
The committee will recess until 9 a.m. tomorrow.
(Whereupon, `at 5 :15 p.m., the committee recessed, to reconvene `at
9 a.m. Wednesday, May 7, 1969.)
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ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY AMENDMENTS OF 1969
WEDNESDAY, MAY 7, 1969
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
TASK FORCE ON POVERTY
OF THE COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR,
Washington, D.C.
The task force met at 9:10 am., pursuant to recess, in room 2175,
Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Carl D. Perkins (chairman of
the committee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Perkins, Hawkins, Ford, Mink, Meeds,
Stokes, Clay, Ayres, Quie, Bell, Erlenborn, Scherle, Dellenback,
Steiger, Collins, and Landgrebe.
Staff members present: H. D. Reed, Jr., general counsel; William F.
Gaul, associate general counsel; Robert E. McCord, chief clerk and
senior specialist; Charles W. Radcliffe, minority counsel for education;
and John Buckley, chief minority investigator.
Chairman PERKINS. The committee will come to order. A quorum
is present.
Go ahead and call witnesses and introduce them, Mr. Quie.
Mr. QUIE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This morning we have Mr.
Grantham, of Northern Systems; and Welcome Bryant, who is the
Director of the Washington JOBS Center; and Mr. Gerry Matson,
also of Northern Systems.
Mr. Chairman, I am particularly interested in these witnesses
because Northern Systems had the contract of the Lincoln Job Corps
Center and Mr. Welcome Bryant was the director of that center.
When that center was closed, they put everything on a semitrailer
and moved it to the Washington Jobs Center and have been training
people there. I went out and visited the Washington Jobs Center and
have been particularly interested in the story that they have to tell
and the job they have done. I think this will be extremely beneficial
to us.
Chairman PERKINS. I want to join with my colleague and welcome
all of you gentlemen here. I have always felt that it was a great mistake
to close down the Job Corps permanently. That has been my view,
because we have no suitable facility to take its place. But I will be
delighted to hear from you witnesses and join my distinguished
colleague in welcoming you here.
(2089)
27.-754--69-pt. 3-42
PAGENO="0658"
2090
STATEMENT OP 3~. 0. GRANTHAM, VICE PRESIDENT, NORTHERN
SYSTEMS, ACCOMPANIED BY WELCOME BRYANT, DIRECTOR,
WASHINGTON 3~OBS CENTER; AND GERRY MATSON, DIRECTOR
OF ADMINISTRATION, NORTHERN SYSTEMS CO.
Mr. GRANTHAM. Mr. Chairman, Congressman Quie, and members
of the committee.
We are very pleased to be here today to discuss with you our efforts
in the training of the hard-core unemployed and the experience we
have gained from the deep involvement in manpower training on a
national basis for the past 3 years.
Representing Northern Systems Co. today along with myself are
Mr. Welcome Bryant, currently the Director of the Washington Jobs
Center; and Mr. Gerry Matson, director of administration for
Northern Systems Co. The three of us would be pleased to answer
any questions or provide any additional information this committee
may desire upon the conclusion of my statement.
Northern Systems Co. is a wholly owned subsidiary of Northern
Natural Gas Co., a major natural gas transmission and distribution
company, whose corporate offices are located in Omaha, Nebr.
Northern Systems Co. was originally founded in 1966. Since its
origin it has expanded its activities to include many national man-
power training programs, having operated a major urban Job Corps
center in Lincoln, Nebr.-three N'IA-l (prevocational training and
placement of hard-core unemployed) programs in Houston, Detroit,
and Los Angeles-a training and job development center for 1,400
hard-core unemployed in Washington D.C., a prevocational training
center for the Human Resources Development Corp. in St. Louis
and a large number of subcontracts with private firms engaged in
the Jobs program sponsored by the National Alliance of Businessmen.
Mr. Chairman and members of this committee, in view of the fact
that we did operate an urban Job Corps center and then close it down
only to reconstitute it in an urban setting here in Washington, D.C.,
over a year ago, we believe that we can best serve our appearance here
today by providing information relative to this. What we have done
is, in fact, what the Secretary of Labor is proposing to do with the
cutting back of Job Corps and providing alternate training in an
urban setting. I would like at this time to address myself to the basic
differences between our Job Corps operation and the operation of our
Jobs Center here in Washington, D.C.
Chairman PERKINS. That is the reason I am very interested in
hearing that explanation. Go ahead.
Mr. GRANTHAM. The training program at our Washington Jobs
Center is designed to take young men and women who are residents
of the ghetto and give them the necessary skill and behavioral capa-
bilities to get and hold a job in society. This is also the general ob-
jective of the Job Corps.
The training program at our Washington Jobs Center is designed
to place on 1,400 jobs the necessary individuals to occupy these slots
for 1 year. On a trainee basis this figure is comparable to our urban
center in Lincoln, which called for a capacity of 1,150 trainees.
I would like to reemphasize the fact that with the exception of the
residential component, tile training program which is now function-
PAGENO="0659"
2091
ing here at the Washington JOBS Center is precisely the same
training program which was functioning at the Lincoln Job Corps
Center. So here we have an excellent example of the impact of the
loss of a residential setting with respect to trainees and how it impacts
upon their capability to be trained and to receive behavioral skills
and to get and hold a job after they complete the training program.
After operating this program for over a year, it is our expert judg-
ment that with the exception of the relatively few cases (that is,
extremely difficult home situations, need for excessive remedial edu-
cation, et cetera), the great majority of the young men which we were
processing in our Lincoln Center on a residential basis can be handled
just as well or even better in our Washington JOBS Center.
Chairman PERKINS. You mean let them stay there in the day-
time and take the training, but not stay there during the week?
They don't have a bed in your center?
Mr. GRANTHAM. That is correct. They come at 8 o'clock in the
morning and leave at 5 in the afternoon and go back home in the
evening.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead.
Mr. GRANTHAM. For example:
1. The initial trauma of homesickness and adjustment to a strange
area is, of course, eliminated in the recruiting and orientation phase
of our Washington program. Here the young men come in from their
home areas, spend 8 hours at the center, and then return to their
homes in the evening.
2. Training which these young men receive moves along at a pace
equal to or better than the training pace at our center in Lincoln.
For example, the average length of stay of a young man at our Lincoln
Center was 5.5 months, while the average length of stay of a young
man at our Washington JOBS Center is 3 months.
3. The motivation displayed by these young men in our urban
center in Lincoln in contrast to the Washington JOBS Center is
about equal. The spirit which can be built up in an urban Job Corps
center which leads to heavy identification and, incidentally, some-
what of a reluctant feeling to leave the center and go back into the
real world, is offset here in Washington by the fact that the trainees
know from the day they enter training, that they will indeed have
a job waiting for them when they leave the program.
This fact of having a job in the home area from which they come,
and with a firm which is already known to them, is to the trainee a
very high motivational factor. This point is further emphasized by
the fact that at our urban Job Corps center in Lincoln the dropout
rate was 44 percent. Here in Washington the dropout rate is 27
percent.
4. Now as to the quality of the corpsmen in contrast to the trainees
in our JOBS Center here in Washington. We can categorically say
that the type of trainee handled in our Washington JOBS Center
is much tougher than the corpsmen which we received in our urban
Job Corps Center in Lincoln. In fact, the rules and regulations of
Job Corps were tough enough such that many of the young men
who have prison records and are on parole and who are doing well
in our Washington JOBS Center could not even get into an urban
Job Corps center.
PAGENO="0660"
2092
5. But probably the most important point, which in the final
analysis is the objective of all manpower programs in the Nation~
pertains to getting a job and holding it. In the end it is the job and
how long the man stays on it which is the final test of the success
of the program.
We can say that, based on our experience, it is much easier and
more effective to obtain jobs, and to keep young men employed at a
center like our Washington JOBS Center rather than one like the
urban Jobs Corp center in Lincoln.
From a programmatic standpoint, the ability of the staff to work
with employers in the area, to place the young men on key jobs and
watch how they perform for 6 to 8 months makes all the difference
in the world in keeping the men in the job market rather than having
them become disillusioned and return to the life pattern they had
displayed prior to coming into training.
Here in our Washington JOBS Center when a young man or woman
goes on a job, the job coach goes along the first day, checks on the
trainee at the end of the second day, and the third day again and
then once a week for 6 weeks. If at any time, during this period, the
trainee gets into trouble, has a question or for one reason or another
leaves the job, the job coach follows him, finds out what the difficulty
was, works with the trainee, provides another job, and sees to it that
he or she is, indeed, stable in the job market.
Now, ladies and gentlemen, this is extremely important as it takes
more than the training and the assimilation of job experience, as
important as they are, to make a lasting difference. A trainee has to
get into the job market and stay there for a while in order to find
out what the world of work is all about. This followup procedure,
which we have at the Washington JOBS Center, is in our judgment
the key to effective manpower programs. If you do not work with
the trainees when they first go into the job market and help them
get through the shakedown period associated with the job, then you
may lose all that you were working for.
So, ladies and gentlemen, we can say, based on experience, that
improvements can be made in the manpower programs in this country
and they can be made in the direction which is being recommended
by this administration. Our experience here in Washington attests
to this.
I wish to thank the distinguished chairman and members of this
committee for your attentiveness and would like to offer a personal
invitation to each committee member to visit our training center here
in Washington.
Thank you.
Chairman PERKINS. How long have you had the Job Corps skill
center established here in Washington?
Mr. GRANTHAM. We have finished approximately 1 year of
operation now, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. This is an aftermath of the Job Corps center
that you used to operate for the Govermnent?
Mr. GRANTHAM. That is correct. The training system, many of the
staff, which were located and involved in our Lincoln Job Corps
center were brought here.
Chairman PERKINS. And after you had put togetI~er that know-how,
you transferred it over to the private skill center that you now operate?
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2093
Mr. GRANTHAM. That is correct.
Chairman PERKINS. You are operating here in the District of
Columbia?
Mr. GRANTHAM. That is correct.
Chairman PERKINS. What is the average cost per enrollee here of
the District of Columbia?
Mr. GRANTHAM. The average cost in this initial year of operation
is a little under $4,000 per man-year.
Chairman PERKINS. But that does not include any remedial
education, does it?
Mr. GRANTHAM. Yes, sir. We give remedial work to the young men
and women at the Center to the extent they need it to go on the job
and be successful on the job.
Chairman PERKINS. What percent of your enrollees are high school
graduates?
Mr. GRANTHAM. I would like to have Mr. Bryant answer that.
Mr. BRYANT. I would say less than 15 percent are high school
graduates. Most of the young man and women that we have in the
program are dropouts and some of them are young men who have, and
women, who have been in Job Corps over the country. But from the
standpoint of educational qualifications, we have a similar situation
here as we had in Lincoln in terms of the educational level of the
people involved.
Chairman PERKINS. What problems have you had in connection
with recruitment?
Mr. GRANTHAM. Mr. Chairman, this is a very interesting question
and one that I believe Mr. Bryant can answer very effectively because
it points to one of the advantages of our being here in an urban area.
Mr. BYRANT. I think the advantage that we have had here in the
recruitment standpoint that we didn't have when I ran the Lincoln
Job Corps Center is the fact that we work with the agencies within
the city and in Washington, for example, we work with the concen-
trating employment group.
We get help through the United Planning Organization and the
USES, the U.S. Employment Service, provides recruits for us. We
also get recruits from the ministers. We have a group of ministers in
town who have patience and they also send trainees in to us.
Chairman PERKINS. That is the way that recruitment has taken
place in the Job Corps. You have adopted about the same method of
recruitment that is presently going on in the Job Corps?
Mr. GRANTHAM. Yes, to an extent. The only difference is that the
recruitment program here, where we use the agencies right in town,
we are very close to our source. We have the opportunity, for example,
if we need additional recruits to get on the phone and call to the
agencies right here in the city to increase the number that we need.
In other words, we have a more flexible position here than we did in
the Job Corps center, because we are dealing directly with our re-
source here within the same locale. Whereas, in the Lincoln area, for
example, my first point of contact was Kansas City for the flow and
then we got it from all over the country.
Chairman PERKINS. Let me ask you this question: You do not pro-
vide any medical care at your center, do you?
Mr. GRANTHAM. The medical care is provided. There is an initial
medical examination. However, we do work with the agencies in town
PAGENO="0662"
2094
where we find that there is a medical problem and we do~ refer them
to other agencies in town.
Chairman PERKINS. Who pays those bills?
Mr. GRANTHAM. They are paid by the groups that we are referred
to. If we refer a man to the Howard University Clinic, then they are
paid by the clinic. If we are referred to the dental clinic or the Health
Department in Washington, these costs are paid by the existing
agencies that provide this type of service.
Chairman PERKINS. By existing agencies that provide this type of
service?
Mr. GRANTHAM. Yes.
Chairman PERKINS. Has your center been ifiled to capacity ever
since you have opened it?
Mr. GRANTHAM. No. It hasn't been filled to capacity ever since it
opened, because as with Job Corps, you have to phase up to work
toward your peak. But now we are filled to overcapacity.
Chairman PERKINS. What capacity do you have? How would you
take care of a.ny of these enrollees from these other places since they
must have a residential center?
Mr. GRANTHAM. Mr. Chairman, with respect to that, those that
would need a residential area, the particular site out there does have
a residential capability and we can, of course, have a number of beds
totaling around 400 if this was needed.
Chairman PERKINS. Say you could take 400 of these youngsters
that are going to be taken from a camp that is being closed. How much
additional money would it take, in addition to the $4,000, to give
them a bed and board and so forth and so on, medical and dental care
and any other rehabilitation services necessary?
Mr. GRANTHAM. Mr. Chairman, of course that particular question
we have not researched. We can only say that our ongoing operation
here, our ongoing costs are going to be reduced considerably because of
our experience and the effectiveness and the efficiency of the program
will be increasing.
Chairman PERKINS. That is the point. How do you know that you
are going to have a more efficient operation? You tell me. You have
not researched the cost in addition to the $4,000 that it will take to
give a boy a bed, his food, his clothing, and medical, and dental care
and all other rehabilitative services that youngster should have?
Mr. GRANTHAM. Only this, sir: I was referring to the fact that with
respect to our present program as presently constituted, it would be
dropping to around $3,300 for our ongoing operation, a decrease of
around $700.
Chairman PERKINS. But that doesn't include-
Mr. GRANTHAM. That doesn't include what might be incurred as an
additional cost associated with a residential operation. That we
would be very happy to insert into the record if it would be your wish.
Chairman PERKINS. You don' t know how long it would take you,
though, to do that type of research, do you, to give us a figure that
would be accurate?
Mr. GRANTHA~I. One day, two days, sir. We have our old data from
our Lincoln Job Corps Center that we can translate.
Chairman PERKINS. Would you say it would be double the $4,000?
Mr. GRANTHAM. No, not at all.
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2095
Mr. BRYANT. In terms of the $4,000, I think it might be well to note
that within this $4,000, the trainees involved in this particular pro-
gram get $1.60 an hour while they are in training or about $64 a week,
which is much in excess of what the young men received in Job Corps.
Within this $4,000, we are talking about better than $200 a month
in trainee wages to provide some of the subsistence that they need. So
thinking about the amount of money that we give them for this, you
see we would be able to provide a residential program and clothing at
a figure less than the cost to do it in the Lincoln Job Corps Center.
Chairman PERKINS. I want to compliment you on opening up the
center. But still this does not, in my judgment, take care of the situa-
tion that we have in the country. We need all of these so-called skill
centers in the metropolitan areas.
We have a shortage of those facilities. I am delighted that you took
the know-how that you acquired in connection with the operation of
the Job Corps center and took that personnel that was skilled in the
area, and opened up a private center. I think it is good.
But, at the same time, the boy from the rural area, the rural areas
that I represent-this skill center is not a substitute for the Job Corps,
because this boy has got to have a bed. He has got to have food and
clothing. He has got to have all types of medical and dental facilities.
He has got to have training and remedial education and all of these
things and comprehensive in nature.
Since you are not able to give us a figure as to how much all of this
would cost in addition to the $4,000 that it presently costs to do the
training of a boy that doesn't stay there, who only stays there during
the day and takes some training, I don't think it is a comparable
situation at the present time.
We need skill centers like you are operating. I want to compliment
you on that. I think you are doing a great job. But at the same time,
I am worried about these boys that have no place to go, who are going
to be turned out of their Job Corps.
Don't you think it would be a much smoother operation if we let
these skill centers like your own get into operation and develop into a
residential center where you can keep them there during the week and
look over them 24 hours a day and set up your technique in giving
them medical and dental care and rehabilitative services? And to
expand along that line, don't you think then that you would be in a
better position to tell us whether this center is actually a substitute
for the Job Corps and don't you think it would be wiser for us to not
phase out the Job Corps and not disband on the Job Corps until we
have these skill centers that I have described in actual operation in the
country?
Mr. GRANTHAM. Mr. Chairman, the point we would make in answer
to your question is only that we have found based on our experience
here in contrast to our experience in running an urban Job Corps
center that much of the work that you talk about isn't needed for a
large number of the potential trainees coming out of the inner city.
I am not arguing on the other side that there isn't a place for a resi-
dential component. There definitely is. It should, indeed, have its
ongoing place in our manpower programs in this country. But a far
greater number of the young men from our inner city can benefit and
can get the necessary tools, if you will, and the necessary support, if
you will, to move back into the inner city and to hold jobs and to im-
PAGENO="0664"
2096
prove the economy and the whole environment from which they come
by getting what we call nonresidential training close at hand.
Chairman PERKINS. I want to compliment you for making that
statement. I agree that there is a place for both. You and I both know
there is a great shortage of training facilities in the country today.
You are not going to have any problem about keeping that center filled.
But the inner city people are a little bit more fortunate. I think
you will agree with that, won't you?
Mr. GRANTHAM. It is about a break-even point, sir. The young men
that are referred to our center here, for example, over 60 percent of
them have been on parole or on probation. They are from a very tough
area.
Chairman PERKINS. Thank you very much.
Mr. Quie?
Mr. QuIE. The chairman was asking about the closing of some of
the Job Corps centers and some of these individuals who do not want
to be transferred or cannot be transferred to another Job Corps
center, but who have been assured by the Department of Labor that
either there wifi be a job waiting for them or some other training pro-
gram. Let's assume that there are some Washington Job Corps enroll-
ees in some of the camps or centers that are going to be closed.
Do you feel that they would need necessarily a residential compo-
nent, if they are in effect residents of the city of Washington and, there-
fore, would fit in with the enrollees who are in your program similar
to the ones who previously were in Job Corps, who are now also training
under your program?
Mr. GRANTHAM. Sir, we have had over 100 Job Corps trainees
come into our program at our Washington JOBS Center already and
most of them do not need a residential setting in order to be able to
get the necessary training and the necessary behavioral work to get
and hold a job.
Basically they come with some training. The real thing they need
is to quickly get a job and to be followed on that job as we do in our
job followup program that we described in our testimony.
Mr. QUIE. Let me ask Mr. Bryant, when you were Director of the
Job Corps center in Lincoln, how many, do you think, needed the
residential component in order to benefit from the training program?
How many do you think could have gotten along without a residential
component if a training program was available to them similar to what
you have here in Washington?
Mr. BRYANT. At the Lincoln Job Corps, I felt that 85 percent of the
young men who were in the residential program with support could
have operated very well in a nonresidential program. I have several
concerns: (1) Many of the young men that I worked with there liked
the support in their home area. After workmg with them for 15 months,
the way I did, I found out that it would be just as important to provide
success images for them and for their other friends m the communities
that they came from. So I felt that 85 percent of the young men that
I had in the Lincoln Job Corps Center with support could have operated
very well in a nonresidential setting, provided they were provided
other types of support that they needed.
There were more than 15 percent of them which came from homes
so severe that they had to have a residential setting in order to make
them a part of the economic or job market.
PAGENO="0665"
2097
Mr. QUIE. How about the acceptance of the community here in
Washington? You first had to go out to businesses and find jobs
because I notice from your testimony that you assured the young
men of a j oh before they started their training. Have you seen a change
in the attitude of the business community from when you went out
and explained to them a program that hadn't started yet and a pro-
gram now that has been operating just about a year?
Mr. BRYANT. I think we have seen a change, and I think this is
another plus to this type of program, because with Job Corps they
had support when they were sent back into the area to be placed.
But in this particular setting we are giving them an opportunity to
work with the businessman, to give them a chance to see the activities
that are going on at the center and to relate to the training while he
is on the job and relate to the businessman.
So I think the thing that happens here we have been able to tie the
trainee to his community economically and we have opened new in-
roads for him in the business community, because businessmen, after
the boys have had training and have gone to work for them, they
begin to really understand what you mean when you talk about hard
core.
There was not a real understanding of what you meant when you
talked about hard core men and women. There was some reluctance
on their part to really get involved. But with the program the way we
have it now, where we invite the businessmen out to see the program,
where we have employer advisers out to talk to the employers about
"What problems do you find with our trainees, how can we better
support them?"
This has tended to tie the business community to an on-going pro-
gram, therefore giving better support to the young men out in the
field working.
Mr. QuTE. In the Lincoln Center, you trained in certain skills, un-
doubtedly, and there are certain skills that you train in here. Are they
the same? For instance, your training in culinary arts, auto mechanics,
and the building and construction trades, were they the same in
Lincoln as they are here?
Mr. BRYANT. We ran the same line in Lincoln as we run here except
another thing has happened here. Because we are working with the
business community, we have been able to respond to specific needs.
For example, a group of businessmen were interested in carpetlaying.
They came out and said, "We need young men to lay carpets." We
were able to put in a program responding to their particular need on
carpeting.
Other than that, we have hardwood flooring that we didn't have at
Lincoln. These are programs we put in in response to the business
community. We do have a clerical line here for the young ladies that
we didn't have in Lincoln.
We didn't have a coeducational program in Lincoln.
Mr. QuJE. Concerning the carpetlaying program, which is different
than you had in Lincoln, have you graduated some from it so you
could compare the ability of your graduates with the people who are
on the job?
Mr. BRYANT. We have had graduates. We had a very interesting
thing happen.
PAGENO="0666"
2098
The Carpet Laying Association came out and asked us to institute
the particular program. We got a call from the association 3 weeks
ago, saying they would like for their journeymen to come out at night
and go through a brush-up course.
I think the thing that happened when they asked us to create this
course for them and told us what it took to bring this program to-
gether, and we were able to give them the program, they found out
that some of the techniques that we developed would have some bene-
fit for the journeymen.
So not only have they been pleased with the trainees, but they
have also asked us to provide some support for the journeymen in
this particular area.
Mr. QUIB. In other words, they wanted the journeymen to be
able to lay carpet as well as your graduates were able to lay carpet
when they went on the job.
Mr. BRYANT. We really don't want to brag that much. I think
we developed some techniques that would be of some value to the
journeymen.
Mr. QrnE. You also stressed the followthrough, Mr. Grantham,
when they were placed on the job. What kind of followthrough did
you have with your enrolless as they went to all parts of the country
to go back home again out of Lincoln?
Mr. GRANTHAM. Very, very little. It was very difficult. We had a
job development section in our Lincoln Job Corps Center, but since
most of the graduates were scattering all over the country, it was
practically impossible and about the only way we could communi-
cate was by mail.
Mr. QuJE. By mail?
)vlr. GRANTHAM. By mail or by telephone.
Mr. QuiE. Tha.t is some followthrough.
Mr. BRYANT. Might I say, Congressman Quie, another problem
you have, if you understand the problems of the ghetto when you
are not working with it, and we have seen it here, it is not very diffi-
cult to lose young men when they go back to their homes 300 or
500 miles away from you. Because this is a very fluid population.
A great deal of fluidity takes place within this population. They
are hard to find. I know in the school system, I would have a young
man or woman move five or six times during the school year. We
would try to correspond by letter a.nd work with the employment
agencies in the area to get whatever information we could about
what was happening to them.
Mr. QUIE. How many young men have gone through your train-
ing progTam?
Mr. BRYANT. In a year, we have about 2,300 who have gone through
the training program. We have about 457 in the program today.
Mr. QUIE. How many did you have at your Lincoln Center?
Mr. BRYANT. The peak capacity there was 1,150 when we were
operating at full.
Mr. QUTE. In other words, a skifi center such as you are running
here can be comparable in size or in handling numbers of trainees
8S an urban center.
Mr. BRYANT. In terms of production, yes.
Mr. GRANTHAM. Even larger.
~\`Ir. QUIR. Even more so?
PAGENO="0667"
2000
* Mr. GRANTHAM. Yes.
* Mr. QuTE. You indicated that their average length of stay at Lincoln
was 5~5 months and here the average length of stay is 3 months.
What about their training skills or ability to handle the job when, they
left between the two?
Mr. GRANTHAM. The training program that we have here, Congress-
man, is an innovative program that works very, very well with this
l)oPulatiOfl. They learn a skill and they learn it fast. Not only do they
learn the skil,but they also learn the behavioral control requirements
as well as tolerance to stress.
So when they come out of our training program, they do indeed go
on a job that is a bona fide job that they have been specifically trained
for and have checked out according to. industry standard before they
go on that job.
Mr. QuJE. What about the speed of setting up your center here?
You closed the Lincoln Center and you set up here. How easy is this
or what problems did you have or what kind of length of time are
we talking about? What kind of costs do we have in that?
* Mr. GRANTHAM. We must smile a little bit because a week after
we signed our contract, the civil disturbances broke out here in the
District of Columbia and there was a need manifested by the Mayor
for an early startup. So within. 2 weeks we had an office operating
out of the training center at Bladensburg Road..
* . Within 6 weeks we were taking trainees into the program. We
brought the training materials and training equipment from Lincoln
here and reconstituted them in our program here. We brought them
out on advance and in a very, very small amount of time, actually,
we were operational out here.
The cost associated with that was minimal, because we were using
practically all the equipment and materials and 80 members of the
staff for that matter.
Mr. . QuIE. You moved the equipment out here and were able to
find a location to set it up in the buildings there?
Mr. GRANTHAM. That is correct, with a minimal amount of reha-
bilitation.
Mr. BRYANT. If you would like dates, for example, we got the
notice that the closing date was the 15th of March. By the 6th of
April we had started our lineup, by the 6th of May we were taking
people in already. That is moving it across the country, finding a
site, and the whole work from the time of March 15 when we were
going to close.
So actually in terms of moving it across the country and setting it
up, we were able to do it quite quickly.
Mr. QUJE. You mention in your testimony also you don't have the
problem of homesickness and adjustment in the area here in Wash-
ington, because they are living in the same surroundings that they
did in Lincoln.
There is~ a huge dropout in the Job Corps. It keeps coming back
to us that there are special behavioral problems. Have you any com-
parison also, Mr. Bryant, in handling the enrollees and handing
behavioral problems there in Lincoln as compared to here in
Washington?
Mr. BRYANT. In terms of the behavioral problems, again we must go
back to the training system that we use. It is a total training system
PAGENO="0668"
2100
where we have behavioral experiences worked into it. We have a
minimum amount of behavioral problems in Lincoln, but we have the
perennial problems of homesickness, the young men coming from
rural areas, young men really away from home for the first time in
strange settings.
So we had a great deal of homesickness, of trying to get adjusted to
one environment, knowing that they come from another type of
environment. So we had these peculiar problems. However, in the
Washington Center we don't have these problems because the thing
that we do is to give them the type of techniques necessary to survive
in the environment that they come from.
So we are working on a different basis. We are taking them from
their local locale. We are giving them experiences to us in this locale,
not only from the standpoint of living in the environment of the
home, but in the work environment. Se we don't have the same
problem here that we had there.
Mr. GRANTHAM. It is much easier to deal with the behavioral
problems in a nonresidential setting than it is in a residential setting.
Mr. QuIR. When I was out there at the center, I thought it was a
unique program that I hadn't seen before in the method in which you
trained. I wish you would tell us so we could have it on the record
the system of training stations and monitors that you use in the
training program, which you didn't explain fully in your testimony.
Mr. GRANTHAM. This particular program is, indeed, an innovative
program and a departure from traditional methods of training and
education. I guess we would liken it most closely to the concept of a
Link trainer which is used to train pilots for the aviation industry,
because what we do is create a Link trainer, if you will, for responsible
living through the systems approach and through simulation methods
we actually created ahead of time all the experiences or a majority of
them that the young man or woman will receive on a job, so that they
can get prior experience and how to deal with this in addition to the
skills that they need in order to handle their jobs.
This requires a very careful amount of design. In fact, it requires
the same intensity of design that you would in designing a missile
component, but the results are worth it.
This particular method where we take the young men in and where
they move through training stations, where they physically move
every day, where they get the backup information which they need
for the training assignment in the afternoon, in the morning, where all
the information is relevant and will be immediately used, all of this is
designed into this program and it has a very dramatic effect upon
their motivation and their willingness to stay in the program and to
stay on the job.
And the monitoring process is very unique, wherein the young men
once they pass a certain checkout station so that they have attained
a certain skill capability themselves, are then fed back into the pro-.
gram as monitors or teachers, if you will, and they teach their own
peers.
This has a very fine motivating effect in that they, in addition to
getting the enjoyment of teaching, get reenforced as to what they
have learned. As we all know, we learn best that which we teach.
PAGENO="0669"
2101'
This also has an impact of reducing the requirement for our own
instructional staff and reduces the cost of instruction as the trainees
themselves teach themselves.
Mr. QUIE. On academic subjects, we have heard people saying that
they really didn't know the subject until they taught it. I haven't
heard of this or seen it before in teaching vocational or occupational
skills. So as far as you know is this a unique and different program or
are there some things like it?
Mr. GRANTHAM. Many of the components which we used were first
used in the military, but configured in a social setting this is the only
one that we know of in the country.
Mr. QUIE. The last question I would ask you, Mr. Bryant, is do you
recall from the Lincoln Center how many came from rural areas and
how many from urban areas? This goes back to the chairman's
question again.
Mr. BRYANT. In the Lincoln Center, we had them from about 43
States, Congressman Quie. The larger number were from the urban
areas, the exact percentage I don't have. But the larger numbers
which we had were from the urban areas. We got our largest inputs
from St. Louis, Kansas City, and the larger areas.
Our rural boys came from around Iowa, Missouri, and this type
of area. Then we have a very large influx of young men from the
South, Alabama, like Florida, which was the second largest group
we got in Nebraska. But they were from the ghettos by and large, but
the preponderance of them were from the ghettos of the larger cities
North and South and we got some from the west coast.
Mr. QUIE. I recall the figure from all of the Job Corps centers, 25
percent coming from rural areas. You have 75 percent from urban
areas. This was a total of all the picture. I was wondering how it was
in Lincoln.
Mr. BRYANT. This was pretty close.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Steiger?
Mr. STEIGER. I wonder whether you have available or can you
recall the cost for the transfer from Lincoln to Washington when you
closed the Job Corps center as it existed in Lincoln and opened this
center?
Mr. GRANTHAM. Practically all of the materials and equipment
that existed at our Lincoln Job Corps Center were either used by us
in our transfer to Washington, D.C. or transferred to other Job Corps
centers. The exact cost of this I have no way of finding out or knowing.
But it cost us approximately $36,000 to move our equipment from
Lincoln to Washington, D.C., hut that is the only precise number I
have.
Mr. STEIGER. You have had extensive experience in the manpower
field. I wonder if you want to comment on the role of private enter-
prise and whether or not there is, in fact, a place for a profitmaking
organization in what is essentially a social field?
Mr. GRANTHAM. Congressman, we have thought about that ques-
tion extensively, because we are indeed in a cutting edge type of
operation where very few private firms are operating. It is not an
easy area to succeed in and to make a contribution in. However, we
have seen this: That the peculiar capabilities of private industry,
that of being able to innovate, willing to use their own investment,
PAGENO="0670"
2102
willing to put in their management expertise and their control mecha-
nisms to reduce cost and the very real item of competition has a very
key role to play, it seems to us, in our social programs to date.
I can recall the very impact of competition and what it means in
terms of reducing costs. I referred earlier to our participation in the
national alliance of businessmen program.
And I can't help but recall the fact that as we were initially quoting
prices to the fi:~ns that would buy our business or would buy our
expertise, we were quoting in the neighborhood of, say, $2,000 per
proj eat. We were finding our competitors were quoting $1,800.
We said, "Well, this is no good. We have got to find out why."
Well, the conclusion of all that is that now through competition we
were quoting down around $1,000 for the same kind of work brought
about primarily through the aggressive competition of private firms
wanting to get business in this area.
So in our judgment there is a great role for private industry in this
field. The only thing is that, in return for the service rendered for the
effectiveness of our programs, there must be a reasonable return in
order for us to justify our existence in this.
We look forward to a greater and more comprehensive role for
ourselves, because we do indeed feel that in terms of being able to
innovate, in terms of being able to compete, there is no comparison or
there is no substitution for private industry.
Mr. STEIGER. Perhaps Mr. Quie asked this question and I regret
that I was not here for your intital statement, though I did have a
chance to review it and really know the fantastic work you are doing.
Do you have any kind of information that relates to the wages of
those who have been enrolled in your program after they have gone
through it when they go into other jobs?
Mr. GRANTHAM. Our data indicates that the average wage of the
men and women who have graduated from our program is over $2.25
an hour. Considering the $1.60 an hour minimum, that gives you some
idea of the impact of the training and the effective placement of our
program.
Mr. STErnER. Most of your enrollees come from this area?
Mr. GRANTHAM. All of them do come from this area.
Mr. STEIGER. The placement takes-
Mr. GRANTHAM. Takes place right in the industrial firms here in the
greater metropolitan area of Washington, D.C.
Mr. STEIGER. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman PERKINS. How long did you operate the Lincoln Center?
Mr. GRANTHAM. Approximately a year and a half, sir, before it was
closed down.
Chairman PERKINS. You were closed out by the Government, I
presume, when the cutback came?.
Mr. GRANTHAM. Our Lincoln Center was selected as one of the four
to be closed, that is correct.
Chairman PERKINS. You were cut back in, when, in 1967?
Mr. GRANTHAM. In March of 1968, . sir.
Chairman PERKINS. You came down here and set up immediately
almost?
i\~1r. GRANTHAM. That is correct.
PAGENO="0671"
2103
Chairman PERKINS. Did you enter into a contract with the District
of Columbia about the facilities that you were going to use, the
building?
Mr. GRANTHAM. The facilities we used were furnished by the General
Services Administration through the Department of Labor.
Chairman PERKINS. Through the Department of Labor?
Mr. GRANTHAM. Yes.
Chairman PERKINS. What kind of contract do you have with the
Department of Labor?
Mr. GRANTHAM. The arrangement that we have here in Washington,
D.C., is this way: We were working with the Washington, D.C.,
Board of Trade, which is the maj or spokesman for business and industry
here in the city. They have the prime contract with the Labor Depart-
ment.
Chairman PERKINS. Who has the prime contract?
Mr. GRANTHAM. The Washington, D.C., Board of Trade has the
prime contract.
Chairman PERKINS. Do you subcontract with the Washington,
D.C., Board of Trade?
Mr. GRANTHAM. That is correct.
Chairman PERKINS. What kind of rent do you have to pay on these
facilities?
Mr. GRANTHAM. We don't pay any rent.
Chairman PERKINS. The building you are in, who owns it?
Mr. GRANTHAM. The General Services Administration.
Chairman PERKINS. But they let you have that free of rent?
Mr. GRANTHAM. That is correct.
Chairman PERKINS. You have no maintenance upkeep other than
just the ordinary maintenance?
Mr. GRANTHAM. We have the utilities and the normal maintenance
associated with occupying the facilities.
Chairman PERKINS. Utilities and normal maintenance, but a
renovation job such as painting or things of that type you do not have
to do do that, do you?
Mr. GRANTHAM. Yes, we had to do all the renovation, all the adapta-
tion of the facilities for our own training. This we had to do at our
own cost.
Chairman PERKINS. But you don't pay rent?
Mr. GRANTHAM. That is correct, nor did we pay rent at our Lincoln
Job Corps Center.
Chairman PERKINS. The capacity of this center presently is what?
Mr. GRANTHAM. Our present contract calls for 1,400 jobs within a
year. At one time we were taking up to over 100 trainees per week
and the capacity of the center is that and more.
Chairman PERKINS. So your center is filled presently?
Mr. GRANTHAM. No, sir, it is not. It is beginning to phase out,
because the training portion of our present contract is coming to a
close and we are actually taking in fewer now than we are capable of
taking in.
Chairman PERKINS. Do you know whether you are going to get a
renewed contract?
Mr. GRANTHAM. We are aggressively pursuing that, sir.
PAGENO="0672"
2104
Chairman PERKINS. Wifi it be with the Washington Board of
Trade or with the Department of Labor?
Mr. GRANTHAM. Both of these organizations will be involved in the
ongoing contract.
Chairman PERKINS. Thank you very much.
Are there any further questions? I want to compliment all of you
gentlemen for your appearance here today. You have been helpful to
the committee.
Our next witness is the National Farmers Union panel, Mr. Harold
Wright, president of the Indiana Farmers Union. Come around, Mr.
Wright.
I notice Mr. Carstenson is there with you. Bring your panel around
and identify them for the record and proceed in the manner that you
prefer.
We have heard a lot about the Green Thumb organization and the
good work that the program is doing, especially in rural sections of
the country. We will be delighted to hear from you this morning.
STATEMENT OF HAROLD WRIGHT, PRESIDENT, INDIANA FARMERS
UNION, ACCOMPANIED BY BETTY EBLESISOR, NEIGHBORHOOD
YOUTH CORPS, CLARK COUNTY, 11Th.; MOSES THOMPSON, SURRY
COUNTY VA.; WILLIE MORRIS, DAVE MORRIS, AND SETH MIZE,
MOUNTAIN VIEW, ARK.; A. E. "SONNY" MARKS, DIRECTOR OF
ORGANIZATION AND PROGRAMS, FARMERS UNION GREEN
THUMB; AND BLUE CARSTENSON, DIRECTOR, SENIOR MEMBER
COUNCIL, NATIONAL FARMERS UNION
Mr. WRIGHT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I am Harold Wright, president of the Indiana Farmers Union,
representing the National Farmers Union. I am a dairy farmer and
grain farmer in central Indiana.
Chairman PERKINS. Where is your home?
Mr. WRIGHT. In central Indiana. I have several other people ap-
pearing with me today, some of whom I wifi introduce later. I do want
to introduce Dr. Ca.rstenson, who is our director of community serv-
ices to the National Farmers Union.
At the outset, Mr. Chairman, I hope that you will bear with me.
As I stated earlier, I am a poor farm boy from Indiana. I am not
accustomed to appearing before such a distinguished group of people.
Chairman PERKINS. If you are a good farmer, you know your way
around this day and age.
Mr. WRIGHT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Poverty is no stranger to rural America or to Farmers Union. It
is and has been a fact that too many farmers have not been able to
earn enough to take care of themselves and their families.
Farmers Union leaders have for decades said that if millions of
people were forced off the land and out of rural communities because
of poor farm prices and neglected rural development, the results
would be extreme urban poverty and metropolitan crisis, chaos, and
confusion. Today we see the results of these critical problems in most
of our urban communities. And, Mr. Chairman, I would like to inj ect
here a comment or two of the things that have just happened recently.
PAGENO="0673"
2105
There have been a couple of decisions made which I feel should ex-
tend this rural poverty even further. These decisions were made with
regard to farm income.
Within the last 90 days, the support price of our soybeans has
been lowered approximately 30 cents a bushel and this is going to
mean about $300 million to the family farmers of America. Just
recently, there was an announcement made that the dairy price
supports on manufacturing milk would not be raised to the maximum
authorized by Congress and by law, which is 90 percent of parity.
This is going to mean another $350 million to the dairy farmers of
America. If you total these two figures up and this is better than a
half a billion dollars of net farm income that may not be received by
our family farmers, who are already receiving not near enough for
their labors.
I certainly hope that I could be wrong in making this assumption,
but if this continues, we could have a lot more need for programs such
as this to help pull our family farmers of rural America out of this
poverty.
Chairman PERKINS. I want to say to you that in my judgment the
small family farmer who has been so patient and contributed so much
throughout the years, there is nothing that we could do that would
be as much as he deserves. I am most hopeful that we can put some-
thing in here that will be of assistance to the small family farmer.
There he is on the farm and he is working all the time, from sunup
and until sundown, and you never hear any complaints. He is the
backbone of the country. Sometimes we abuse him terribly from
Washington.
Go ahead.
Mr. WRIGHT. The Farmers Union first proposed the food stamp
program and the school lunch and breakfast programs. We have
initiated these proposals because we believe that there simply must
be a way, in this rich and affluent land of ours, to prevent anyone from
going hungry. However, we still find that these programs are not
enough. Today we still find too many people who are malnourished
and some literally starving to death.
The congressional investigations have found underfed children-
children who go to bed hungry at night, hungry children who will be
stunted in both mind and body for life because of poor nutrition. If
you investigate, you will also probably find that tens and perhaps
hundreds of thousands of improverished older people die prematurely
for lack of an adequate and proper diet.
Chairman PERKINS. We are going to have the witnesses on hunger
to testify. I have always been a deep believer in assisting the needy
school youngsters, because it serves a twofold purpose: first, the child;
and secondly, it helps the farmer. Some of our larger farmers don't
agree with the philosophy that we ought to take funds and spend them
on preschool lunches. I am glad to hear you comment along that line.
Go ahead.
Mr. WRIGHT. Mr. Chairman, I might also add here that I was
pleased to hear the President's statement on the enlargement of our
nutrition programs and I would certainly hope that he would consider
the producer in the formulation and the operation of such programs.
We in the Farmers Union have long supported this type of program.
27-754--69-pt. 3-43
PAGENO="0674"
2106
Just recently we had several of our ladies in Washington visiting with
our Congressmen, asking for their continuation.
For more than 20 years the Farmers Union has helped lead the
fight for the Full Employment-Work Opportunity Act in order that
poor people could earn their way out of poverty and still maintain
their dignity. Instead, we in this country, have continued to pour
billions of dollars into a public welfare program that nobody likes-
especially the taxpayer and the person receiving welfare.
It cannot be defended morally when it has torn families apart and
has destroyed the initiative and dignity of people. This public welfare
system has weakened the very fabric of our country. We have seen in
our Green Thumb program people who would have starved, and were
starving, rather than go on welfare.
I want to stress this last statement. It has been cooperation and the
help of the people on the locallevel whereby our programs have been
so well accepted and have done such a splendid job.
First, I want to introduce Betty Eblesisor, from Jeffersonvifie,
Clark County, md. Her father passed away 3 years ago and without
the Neighborhood Youth Corps program she would have had to quit
high school after her freshman year. She is now a senior with all A's
except one B, and hopes to go to college.
Miss EBLESISOR. My name is Betty Eblesisor, and I am an NYC
representative from Jeffersonville, md. I have been with that program
for the past 22 months. Without that program, I would have had to
quit school, as he said. My father died and it is just my mother, and I
have two other sisters at home. But my mother couldn't work because
she is partially blind, so it fell onto my older sister and myself.
My other sister goes to school, too, and works part time. She is a
high school dropout, but she did go with the NYC program. Now
she is a beautician and earns a very good salary.
I ~r~s able to continue my education by working with the NYC
program, because they have set up a work schedule that enabled
me to go to school full time, plus work and pay my expenses, which
amounted to quite more than I ever expected. The book rental
this year was $27 for the first part of the senior year.
I have another younger sister at home and myself. Social security
isn't too much. But of course it is a help. But it doesn't cover every-
thing.
At the end of my freshman year, I knew that if I didn't get a job,
I wasn't going to be able to go back to school. So I contacted a man
in Jeffersonvifie through the Red Cross and he introduced me to the
NYC program.
It has helped me so much that I hardly know where to begin to tell
you what it has done for me. It enabled me to meet people that have
high ambitions. So it sort of rubbed off on me. It enabled me to have
high ambitions. It gave me another look on the other side of the track,
of another class of people that I never associated with before. It just
makes me want to go ahead and strive for the goal that I thought
I could never reach. I know there are other NYC program workers
in our community. One boy works in the same office with me. His
mother is a widow, too. He has a few more younger brothers and
sisters than I do.
He was hit by a car. It permanently damaged him. He can't join
the service or anything like that, because he blacks out quite often.
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But he has gone to school and he will graduate this June and he will
have a worthwhile job waiting for him when he does graduate.
There are a lot of things that have affected me, those who I was
employed by. I have a very good employer who is very well educated.
He treats us as his equals. He trusts us. We have our own keys to
his office and we can come and go as we please.
Any extra hours we do we are paid for by him personally. It is just
a very good program that anybody could get into. I am sorry that a
lot of people can't get into it. I know that it needs more funds for
more people, because I will be leaving pretty soon and that will
leave at least one more place open for somebody who was even less
privileged than I was.
Mr. WRIGHT. Thank you, Betty.
Mr. Chairman, in this same line, in connection with Betty coming
here, there are some things that I found out yesterday which I think
would be of interest to this committee.
When word got out that she was going, these following things
happened: Her NYC member, who is her employer in her home county,
the county surveyor, loaded up his camera with film and flash cubes,
plus some extra rolls of film and loaned it to her to use.
A friend loaned her her luggage. A boyfriend loaned her his car so
she could get around to make last-minute arrangements to go. Her
aunt gave her a graduation gift ahead of time, some spending money.
A friend loaned her clothes. Her sister, Linda, and who was a previ-
ous enrollee in our NYC program and is now a full-fledged beautician
because of this, did her hair and other beauty things which women need
to have done.
Many friends and neighbors came through with odd pieces of cloth-
ing, including a new dress so she would look nice for her trip to Wash-
ington.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead.
Mr. WRIGHT. Thank you.
The next person I want to introduce is Mr. Moses Thompson of
Dendron, Surry County, Va. Mr. Thompson is 93 years young. He
was born near Chippokes in 1876 to parents who were slaves. When
the plantation was given to the State of Virginia for a park as part of
the Williamsburg-Norfolk-Yorkstown area historical complex, he
faced eviction and loss of a job until Green Thumb came along to work
on Chippokes Plantation.
Green Thumb worked it out with the State that he could remain in
his home and work on the Green Thumb crew. At this time I would
like to introduce Mr. Thompson.
Chairman PERKINS. Before you introduce these distinguished
people, I wish you would tell us a little more about your Green
Thumb operation. Do you intend to do that later on?
Mr. WRIGHT. I could do it now.
Chairman PERKINS. Why don't you do it right now?
Mr. WRIGHT. Mr. Chairman, our Green Thumb operation is an
operation in which we employ senior rural citizens to beautify our
Nation's highways and various parks and so forth. We are operating in
approximately 14 States in the United States. We are proud of this
project and the fact that it is giving our senior citizens, our rural low-
income senior citizens an entirely different outlook on life.
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It is giving them a sense of responsibility and well-being again in
my opinion. Before a program such as this came along, they didn't
think that anyone really cared about them or there was anything for
them to do.
Chairman PERKINS. What is the wage that you pay these elderly
people that are on social security for their type of beautification work?
Mr. WRIGHT. I think this varies by State. But on the average, I
understand they are getting $1.60 an hour. They work primarily 3
days a week.
Chairman PERKINS. What qualifications do you have to determine
eligibility?
Mr. WRIGHT. Minimum income qualifications for the OEO project.
Their income must be under $2,000 a year per couple if they live off
the farm or $1,400 a year if they live on the farm.
I think you will agree that these are certainly real minimal qualifica-
tions. Their average income is $900 a year, of the people we have got
employed in this project.
Chairman PERKINS. Are you satisfied with the results that Green
Thumb program is accomplishing?
Mr. WRIGHT. Primarily, yes. Maybe the only dissatisfaction we have
really got is we have not had the funds to expand as we should have
expanded it. There are so many areas you have to leave out.
Chairman PERKINS. Along what areas have you been able to operate
presently outside of beautification along the highways and in the parks
and so forth?
Mr. WRIGHT. This is primarily where we have been working. We
have worked in city parks, county parks and along the county high-
ways. We have a crew in Indiana to work in a city park and rebuilt it.
We are restoring national historical sites and so on, such as this project
which Mr. Thompson is working on in Virginia.
Chairman PERKINS. Do you find a lot of them that do carpentry
work and masonry work?
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; I know in Indiana of which I am familiar with
these boys went in and dug the foundations and poured the concrete
and laid the stones and did the carpentry and built the rafters of this
building in this city park.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead. I thought we should get a little of
this information in the record.
Mr. WRIGHT. So at this time, with that introduction, I would like
to introduce Mr. Thompson.
Mr. THOMPSON. I belong to the Green Thumb since they have been
there. I think it is the best insurance that has ever been made for the
poor person. It helped me and it helped others. I believe in it and I
will do all I can for it and I thank them all that I can.
But I am so old now I can't do much but be there.
Mr. MARKS. If I might mention, if you don't mind, this is Moses'
first trip to Washington in 70 years. He rode up with me this mormng.
He came about 150 miles one way to be here. He said there have been
quite a few changes since he was this way last.
I think Mr. McKinley was President at the time. But the things
that we take so much for granted, our highways, and our State system
and the things that we see everyday and we cuss everyday because we
have to drive on them means so much to a gentleman like this and he
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was on $40 a month social security and if he hadn't gotten on the Green
Thumb program, none of this would have happened to him.
If he had to leave the program tomorrow, he was thankful for this
opportunity.
Chairman PERKINS. Thank you very much.
Go ahead, Mr. Wright.
Mr. WRIGHT. We appreciate the opportunity Congress has given us
to join in partnership to seek some answers to rural poverty. To share
in expressing this appreciation I have with me five people, all of whom
needed help. With Federal aid, money, through the Economic Oppor-
tunity Act and the Department of Labor, coupled with Farmers Union
talents and money and the cooperation, talents and money of literally
over 1,000 local and State government agencies, we can say we now
have some solid solutions to poverty by providing opportunities to
low-income people to help themselves.
We have heard from Miss Eiblesisor and Mr. Thompson. Next I
want to introduce three men who want to express their appreciation
in another way. Wfflie Morrison, Dave Morrison, and Seth Mize are
here from Mountain View, located in Stone County, Ark.
They work on the Green Thumb crew which has won the Green
Thumb National Award for the most beautiful park. It is really
beautiful and is tied in with their folk festival center being built by
Economic Opportunity Act funds. They helped start the annual folk
festival held in Mountain View each year which attracts thousands of
tourists to hear authentic folk music, some of it handed down from
father to son-without being written down-since the 13th century in
Old England.
Wfflie, Dave, and Seth have performed at our last two national
Farmers Union conventions. They have appeared before the Senate
Committee on Aging, on national TV, and have been featured in the
New York Times Magazine section. Seth here, weighs in at 90 pounds
soaking wet, a reminder of the time when he and his wife were slowly
starving to death on $350 a year before Green Thumb.
The Green Thumb crew in Mountain View is one of the best in the
Nation. They want to express their thanks in the only way they
know-a song.
(Music was played by Mr. Willie Morrison, Mr. Dave Morrison,
and Mr. Seth Mize.)
Mr. Willie MORRISON. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I will speak
for the entire crew and the Green Thumbers down in Arkansas. I am
a little bit winded from this fiddling there.
It is, indeed, a pleasure for us to come up here and we feel honored
by it. And we hope you gentlemen will bear with us with what little
we have to say.
We are from the rural area of our country. I think you will find the
mountains down there in Arkansas just as beautiful as you will over
in Kentucky or anywhere else. But what Green Thumb means to the
senior citizens of my neck of the woods is like the gentleman that
testified a few minutes ago.
I went up and interviewed Seth. He had the same halt to his talk
that that gentleman did. He felt like he had been left out. I had to
dig the information out of him. He didn't realize until after he had
drawed his second check that he was getting money again.
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Gentlemen, you can't live on $34 a month. But now, Seth does not
have social security. Several of the gentlemen don't have social
security, but through the Green Thumb project these boys are build-
ing the social security.
Gentlemen, it means a difference in living and having enough to
eat to put the strength in your body, to get out in circulation again.
That is what Green Thumb means to the senior citizens of our country.
The senior citizens of this class went through the 1930's, in the late
1940's, and probably most of us got out of debt in the 1950's and we
found out we were too old to get a job.
The Green Thumb project, folks, is a lifesaver to our senior citizens.
Gentlemen, when you think that the senior citizens don't know how
to work, you give them a chance. This park that we built in Mountain
View is an example. They feel like that they are doing their last job.
They know they can't get, if this program is not continued-if they
are shut down, they won't get to work any more. But they have got
their heart in this one thing, a building of something that the grand-
children and the other citizens, younger generation, can see, some-
thing they will leave behind after they have passed on.
It is pride that they have got. They have got more pride and now
they are back in circulation with the community and, gentlemen,
they are go-getters. I want to tell you this: Our country should be
very proud of the stockpile of information and experience and knowl-
edge that we have got stored away in our senior citizens.
Thank you.
Mr. WRIGHT. Mr. Chairman, I think I will have to say that Willie
is a lot better spokesman for Green Thumb than I could have been.
Mr. Chairman, I understand that Congressman Mills couldn't be
here this morning. I also am told that his representative is here. I was
wondering if you want to call him.
Chairman PERKINS. Where is the representative? Do you wish to
make a statement?
Mr. Goss. I am Gene Goss, administrative assistant to Mr. Mifis.
He asked me to express to you his apologies and regrets. He attended
a breakfast downtown this morning with a group of Arkansas people
that ran overtime. He had to go immediately into executive session
with his committee.
He knows these folks well. He has tapped a foot many a time to
their music. He has seen the results of their work in Stone County and
the results of the work of other Green Thumbers throughout Arkansas.
It is one of the finest programs ever developed for senior citizens.
If you all would like to come down sometime and see some of the
work they have done, we would be glad to entertain you. We would
suggest you come on Friday night, because that is when all the younger
folks like Brother Morrison over here get together at the courthouse
and romp and stomp like you saw this morning until somebody chases
them home.
The last time we were there, it was about midnight and then they
went to their homes and stomped some more until about dawn. It is
a moving experience to see them work and a moving experience to
see and hear them play.
Again, let me express Mr. Mills' apologies to you, Mr. Chairman,
and his endorsement of the testimony of these Arkansas folks.
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Chairman PERKINS. You can tell Mr. Mills that he was well repre-
sented and we understand his problems. No one is busier than Wilbur
Mills presently.
Thank you for your appearance.
Mr. Wright?
Mr. WRIGHT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We can no longer be
satisfied funding programs just because they "help poor people."
They must be efficiently run, effective and, if possible, have a degree
of public acceptance. Where they are popular, they must be even more
efficient and effective in helping people. The war on poverty simply
cannot afford to be run as inefficiently as the Defense Department or,
for that matter, many other departments of Government.
Toward these ends, here are the recommendations of the Farmers
Union:
1. We urge that the antipoverty program not become a political
football. We hope this committee will work quickly to develop a bi-
partisan bill rather than subjecting this program to another head-on
battle on the floor of Congress.
2. We urge Congress to pass an enlarged adult work program based
upon the solid successes that these programs have had in helping
people help themselves and upon the widespread public support they
enjoy-78 percent according to national polls.
I might add at this time that the National Farmers Union is almost
ready to put into action another adult work training program similar
to our Green Thumb program. We are hoping to employ some of our
senior rural ladies, because I think this is true all over the country,
not only in rural America, but we are primarily concerned with this,
that we find that the ladies outlive the men for some reason or other.
We find that we have a lot of widowed women in our areas who
have no means of employment. We are trying to devise a program
in which we can use their talents and their skills to help better their
commurnty.
We urge that Congress take additional steps to insure that poor
people living in rural areas receive equitable treatment.
We urge that Congress put top priority on improving the adminis-
tration of the OEO and the delegated programs. We urge review
panels for reviewing programs grant proposals and contracts similar
to those used by the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare.
We urge an internal appeals system. Community action agencies,
local governments and the poor, State governmental units or others
should have some system of appeals other than running to their
Congressmen if they don't like the decision made by the regional
OEO staff.
We urge the Congress direct the agency to encourage many exist-
ing projects and programs to assist in ending hunger.
We urge that Congress establish guidelines or procedures to
determine when and how programs should be delegated to other
agencies. Congress should evaluate its general directive to consolidate
all manpower programs into an area under one agency and, instead,
focus upon the real consideration-the coordination of such programs.
We would also urge the Congress direct OEO to alter its guidelines
of poverty to reflect the true changes in the cost of living caused by
inflation. A poor family with $3,000 is a lot poorer than it was 2
years ago when the guidelines do not reflect these changes.
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We would also want to urge Congress to end the double standard
for the poor who live on farms and the poor who live in the cities.
The Department of Agriculture, the rural staff of OEO, every direc-
tor who has dealt with the problem, the national organizations
involved and the various State agencies all agree that the differentia-
tion in the poverty guideline between farm and nonf arm simpiy is
not fair.
Mr. Chairman, this concludes my prepared statement in this
testimony. If you have any questions, I will try to answer them.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Clay?
Mr. CLAY. I don't have any questions at this time, Mr. Chairman.
But I do want to commend the people who came here this morniiw'
in support of the Green Thumb program. I think it is a very worth-
while program.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Landgrebe?
Mr. LANDGREBE. Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank these
gentlemen for the entertainment. My dad bought me several pairs of
shoes with his violin playing country music back in the hills of
Indiana. They are beautiful, too.
So I thank you gentlemen for your information and your testimony
and I assure you I will give you my consideration.
Mr. WILLIE MORRISON. If it is not out of order at this time, I
would, Mr. Chairman, like to also present you gentlemen with a hat
to show our appreciation, to make you honorary members of the
Green Thumb, and I would also like to give you gentlemen one of our
albums.
Chairman PERKINS. Thank you, gentlemen, very much for your
courtesies and appearance hcre today. You have been helpful to the
committee and we appreciate your coming.
I feel confident that your Green Thumb operation will continue in
the future. It is just a question of whether it be expanded or not.
That, of course, depends on the executive and the committee-
authorization first, and then the budget problems downtown and the
Congress in appropriating funds.
But I feel confident when the legislation leaves this committee
that you will be pretty well taken care of. Thank you for coming.
Our next witness is Mr. John Fulibright, Director, Ottowa Job
Corps Center, Port Clinton, Ohio. I understand that Mr. Ferguson
wants to appear with him, Mr. Arthur J. Ferguson. Come around,
gentlemen.
Go ahead, Mr. Fullbright. I am delighted to welcome you here this
morning. We want to hear something about your center.
STATEMENT OP JOHN PULLBRIGHT, DIRECTOR, OTTOWA JOB CORPS
CENTER, PORT CLINTON, OHIO, ACCOMPANIED BY ARTHUR J.
FERGUSON
Mr. FULLBRIGIIT. Mr. Chairman, thank you. I appreciate the
opportunity to appear before your committee this morning.
I will give you a brief résumé on my background because I am sure
there are questions that the committee would ask me.
Chairman PERKINS. Go ahead and summarize it for us. Tell us
about your Ottowa Job Corps Center.
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. Thank you.
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I recently was transferred to the Ottowa center about 7 months
ago as the center Director. I have been in Job Corps for approximately
4 years, in the position of counselor, Corpsman supervisor, which
takes care of residential living and leisure time activities.
I served as Assistant Director and now I am presently in Ohio at
the Ottowa center, which has a capacity of 168 men. We stay at
approximately 154 men. I have just come to that center. We have
done a tremendous amount of work and working with the community
and in assisting young men to better assist themselves.
I now would like to throw this thing open and let you ask questions,
if you would like.
Chairman PERKINS. Is your center still in operation?
Mr. FIYLLBRIGHT. My center is still in operation, but we have re-
ceived official word about the closing.
Chairman PERKINS. Didyou receive the notice for the first time in
the newspapers or just how did you receive that notice that you were
going to be closed out?
Mr. FIJLLBRIGHT. My first knowledge of it was via the news media.
I was looking at television at the 10 o'clock news.
Chairman PERKINS. And heard it over the television?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. Yes, sir; I did.
Chairman PERKINS. That was the first notice that you had received
that you were going to be closed out? You got that notice over the
television?
Mr. FTJLLBRIGHT. Yes.
Chairman PERKINS. What is the enrollment at your Job Corps
center presently?
Mr. FIJLLBRIGHT. Presently it is 95. We have been sending corpsmen
to other centers and so forth.
chairman PERKINS. What is the average cost per enrollee there a
year?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. The average cost per enrollee is approximately
$4,800 per year.
Chairman PERKINS. Approximately $4,800 per year?
Mr. FIJLLBRIGHT. Yes, sir.
Chairman PERKINS. What does that $4,800 include?
Mr. FULLBRIGIIT. It includes clothing, his meals, some leisure time
activities, his medical costs, his dental costs, and it will take care of
the whole person.
Chairman PERKINS. You mean the lodging, 24 hours a day, and
so forth?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. Yes.
Chairman PERKINS. Meals, dental, medical facilities, rehabilitation,
and training facilities of all types?
Mr. FULLBRIGIIT. Yes, sir.
Chairman PERKINS. What placement record did your Job Corps
center have?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. Since coming to the Ottowa Center, we have
been working on placement quite a bit. We have a working agreement
with the Chrysler Corp. in Detroit, Mich. Since we have been there
we have placed approximately 35 corpsmen in that corporation. Of
that 35, they have lost three. One of those was because of physical
examination. He failed his physical.
27-754-69-pt. ~-44
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Chairman PERKINS. Because of physical examination? In other
words, you placed them all except two, excepting the one that you
lost because of physical condition?
Mr. FIJLLBRIGHT. Yes. We also have corpsmen that just prior to
my coming we placed in Eastman Kodak. We have placed corpsmen
in Sandusky, Ohio, which is approximately 15 miles away.
Chairman PERKINS. What type of training do you do in the Job
Corps center at Ottowa?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. At Ottowa we have principally five occupational
areas: welding, auto mechanics, carpentry, culinary arts, and heavy
equipment.
Chairman PERKINS. How many did you tell me you had enrolled
presently?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. We are down to 95.
Chairman PERKINS. What is the capacity of the center?
Mr. FtTLLBRIGRT. 168.
Chairman PERKINS. Why are you down to 95 presently?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. In keeping with arrangements for closing, we
were trying to do what is best for our men and place them and send
them to other centers.
Chairman PERKINS. What is going to happen to the 95 presently
enrolled in your center? Has any effort been made on the part of the
Department of Labor to place those youngsters in other centers?
If you know, tell us about it.
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. The placement of corpsmen in other centers is
being handled through the Office of Economic Opportunity. We have
already placed 20 men in another center. Those who wished to transfer
will probably be placed in centers.
Chairman PERKINS. But you don't know how many of them will go
home or anything else at this stage of the game?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. Upon initial announcement our interview with
the corpsmen revealed that of the men that we had onboard were
approximately 78 who wanted to terminate and about 50 wanted to
transfer.
Chairman PERKINS. Of the men you have onboard, 78 of them
want to terminate and 15 will transfer to other centers?
Mr. FIILLBRIGHT. Fifty. That was initially when we interviewed
each man.
Chairman PERKINS. That is when you first got the announcement?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. That's right.
Chairman PERKINS. Many of the 78 have already left, is that
correct?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. Yes, sir.
Chairman PERKINS. Already gone home?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. Yes, sir.
Chairman PERKINS. To your personal knowledge, they didn't go
to another center?
Mr. FTJLLBRIGHT. By choice they chose to go home.
Chairman PERKINS. That was their choice, to go home?
Mr. FTJLLBRIGHT. Yes.
Chairman PERKINS. What kind of psychological impact, if any, did
the announcement that the center would no longer remain in operation
have on these enrollees when you interviewed them about their choices
and what they contemplated doing?
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Mr. FIJLLBRIGHT. Many of the young men were very perplexed, I
guess that is the best way you could say it.
Let me make this analogy. About 2 weeks previous to the announce-
ment, and not knowing that it was coming out, we got our corpsmen
staff together and we were principally talking about the obj ectives of
what we were trying to accomplish at this particular center and what
were the overall obj ectives of the Job Corps.
I told them about the situation one time when we were playing
basketball. We lost the game by 1 point. I traveled with this young
man who had a family of four. We were so involved in the loss of the
game, when we got ready to leave we forgot to take a head count of
his children that he brought with him and when we got about 50
miles down the road, we counted and we couldn't get but three. So
that meant we had left one child back at the place where we played
our game.
I made an analogy that in America we have been so involved, we
have had so many perplexing things happen to our country and our
society, that mostly we forgot some people. I felt my Job Corps was
that vehicle going back to pick those people up. I want everyone to
know that I am proud to be a part of that vehicle.
But I had to make that announcement when I had to call my people
together. I guess those young men were asking me what happened to
the car? My answer was this: We just had a flat. You get out and fix
it. We are going to still ride.
So I guess those young men are confused.
Chairman PERKINS. Mr. Clay?
Mr. CLAY. You have heard of the proposed plans for transferring
the enrollees of Job Corps centers into other Job Corps centers for
doing the kind of things that Job Corps centers were doing in areas
close to home in the big cities, in particular, transferring them into the
manpower programs, CEPS programs and JOBS. Is it your belief
that the kind of training that was given to the Job Corps enrollee
at the residential center can be absorbed by the existing programs in
the urban areas?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. Mr. Clay, that would be very difficult to answer,
because I don't know exactly what all is involved in the proposed
centers.
I will say this: That human beings as a whole have a resistance to
change. And the young men that we get, when they get off of that bus,
whether they are from rural or urban areas, they bring a set of values
or a set of attitudes. As he remains at the center, he identifies with an
adult which in many cases he has not been able to do in the past. And
to transfer him anywhere is to lose an identity with that adult, which
is going to be very difficult to overcome.
That will probably mean that this person is going to drop out
eventually.
Mr. CLAY. I think you answered part of the question. What I am
really trying to find out is, in your opinion, in the environment that
these children come from originally, can they get the same kind of
training if they remain in that environment or do you think it is
necessary to remove them from that environment and establish a new
set of goals and values?
The present proposal now is saying that you can get the same
amount of productivity out of these children if you have them close
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to home and put them in these programs where they are affected 6 or
7 hours a day and then return them back to their neighborhoods.
I want to know what your opinion is in rega.rd to this matter.
Mr. FULLERIGHT. I am sure that everyone is acquainted with the
problems of alcoholism, dope addicts and so forth. I think that there
is something called a poverty addict-a' person who has known nothing
but poverty and has been so entrenched in it in his life until there
just does not seem to be another choice.
The thing that I feel conservation centers do for these types of
people is help them annihilate this addiction. I think that it helps
them understand why a man must have dignity and worth, that he
must give a man a full day's work for a full day's pay. He gets up at
6 o'clock in the morning in order to teach him when he gets back tO a
job and he is going to have to prepare to be at the job at 8 o'clock
when that man wants him there at 8 o'clock.
These things are intangibles which one cannot see-like confidence
and pride in one's. You cannot see them, they are not visible, but I
think this is the type of thing the conservation centers do for young
men, giving them confidence and pride in themselves that they can
do a job, that they are worth something, and I want to go on record
from a counselor's point of view that 99 percent of the young men we
get lack confidence in themselves and really do not think they are
worth anything as an individual.
I think that these are the most important things that the conserva-
tion centers are doing.
Mr. CLAY. So what you are really saying is we should not be talking
in terms of decreasing the number of Job Corps centers, but we should
be talking in terms of increasing them?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. Yes, sir.
Mr. SCHERLE. How many people do you have working as a counselor
at the Job Corps center at Port Clinton, Ohio?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. In a conservation center, every person there is
a counselor. We have two professional counselors, but everyone must
become involved with the young men in their problems.
Mr. SCHERLE. Are you telling me everyone who is a paid staff mem-
ber is, in a certain sense of the word, organizationally a counselor?
Mr. FULLBIGHT. Yes, sir, I am telling you that and I am also telling
you that my assistant and I have counseling service.
Mr. SCHERLE. If all of these people are counseling, then why was
it not possible for them to succeed in keeping more young men at
the Job Corps center.
Your mortality rate is unbelievably high. Somebody has failed as
far as your center is concerned. I would say it would have to be the
counselors. Since everyone working there is one.
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. Let me put it this way, and by no means do I
mean to be anything but honest with you. We had 100 percent failure
when we started. We have a volunteer program.
WThen one's value system little by little is taken away from him, it
is difficult. More so than this. If a person comes from the most impov-
erished neighborhood in America if his home does not have a board
on it where wind does not come through it, that is home and that is
a sense of security.
When you work with this type of person, you are going to get
dropouts.
PAGENO="0685"
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Mr. SCHERLE. By the same token, Mr. Fulibright, many of us have
experienced the same thing in our lives. You appear to be saying
that the counseling system was such an utter failure that many
enrollees just went home.
Mr. CLAY. Would the gentleman yield?
Mr. SCHERLE. Let the witness answer and then I will yield.
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. First, I want to make it very clear that I am
very happy to sit here and tell you the things I am telling you.
I am not ashamed of it.
Mr. SCHERLE. We are very glad to have you here, but when you
tell me so much of the time was spent on counseling and your mortality
rate was so high, then I can't necessarily believe that the job was
done as efficiently as possible or that these young people are so dis-
tressed with this disruption that they packed their bag and went home.
Somebody has failed and it must have been the Job Corps center.
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. More so than a Job COrps center. I think society
has failed. We can't make up in such a short time things that have
been entrenched for ages. If you recall, I said I think in many cases
people are poverty addicts. It takes time.
Counseling in itself is not a 100-percent cure for anything. In fact,
there is no guarantee for anyone who goes in for psychiatric help or
any other kind of help.
Mr. SCHERLE. What is the average length of stay of an enrollee?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. From a January printout, 4.8 months.
Mr. SCHERLE. So they have had 5 months of counseling. It should
have been more successful.
Now, the traumatic experience that you claim these young people
felt, your counselors perhaps never told them the entire story because
there will be other centers that they will be allowed to transfer to.
For example, 54 centers will be allowed to remain open. The total
affected by the closing is 17,000. Which means that normally about 300
of them can transfer to each of the centers that will still exist. These
can easily absorb them.
In addition, many minicenters will be established which some
transferees who would like to extend their training.
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. You say an average of five months. I think the
kid who has been there 22 months and the one who decided to go home
the next day and that gives me an average.
Mr. SCHERLE. No matter what we do, nothing will change the
mind of an individual in 24 or 48 hours.
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. I agree.
Mr. SCHERLE. Are basically the programs that you have in the field
of vocational education at the center-is it more practical training
than it is academic?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. Yes.
Chairman PERKINS. We have called a meeting of the full committee
here this morning if we can get a quorum. We have a commitment of
nine on our side. We have an executive session scheduled for 11
o'clock.
Do you have any further questions of Mr. Fulibright, Mr. Scherle?
Mr. ScHERLE. We had a statement this morning by Mr. J. 0.
Grantharn, Northern Natural Gas Co.
I would like to quote an interesting aspect of the statement from
Mr. Grantham:
PAGENO="0686"
2118
I would like to reemphasize the fact that with the exception of the residential
component, the training program which is now functioning here at the Washington
JOBS Center, is precisely the same training program which was functioning at
the Lincoln Job Corps Center. So here we have an excellent example of the im-
pact of the loss of a residential setting with respect to trainees and how it impacts
upon their capability to be trained and to receive behavioral skills and to get and
hold a job after they complete the training program.
After operating this program for a year, it is our expert judgement that with the
exception of the relatively few cases (i.e., extremely difficult home situations, need
for excessive remedial education, ~t cetera), the great majority of the young men
which we were processing in our Lincoln Center on a residential basis can be han-
dled just as well or even better in our Washington JOBS Center. For example:
1. The initial trauma of homesickness and adjustment to a strange area is, of
course, eliminated in the recruiting and orientation phase of our Washington
program. Here the young men come in from their )iome areas, spend eight hours
at the center and then return to their homes in the evening.
2. Training which these young men receive moves along at a pace equal to or
better than the training pace at our center in Lincoln. For example, the average
length of stay of a young man at our Lincoln center was 5.5 months, while the
average stay of a young man at our Washington JOBS Center is three months.
3. The motivation displayed by these young men in our urban center in Lincoln
in contrast to the Washington JOBS Center is about equal. The spirit which can
be built up in an urban Job Corps center which leads to heavy identification and,
incidentally, somewhat of a reluctant feeling to leave the center and go back into
the real world, is offset herein Washington by the fact that the trainees know from
the day they enter training, that they will indeed have a job waiting for them when
they leave the program. This fact of having a job in the home area from which they
come, and with a firm which is already known to them, is to the trainee a very
high motivational factor.
This point is further emphasized by the fact that at our urban Job Corps Center
in Lincoln the dropout rate was 44 percent. Here in Washington the dropout rate
is 27 percent.
4. Now as to the quality of the Corpsmen in contrast to the trainees in our JOBS
Center here in Washington. We can say categorically that the type of trainee
handled in our Washington JOBS Center is much tougher than the Corpsmen
which we received in our urban Job Corps Center in Lincoln.
So from that short summation, it appears to me that the fear we
have about these young people not adjusting and not becoming a
part of the area in which they live, which is home to them, seems to
work out after 1 year exactly the way the administration proposed and
forecast that it `WoUld
Do you have any comment of his remarks?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. Sir, I would not dispute that testimony at all.
He came from an urban center, which is a lot different from the type
of center with which I have been associated, which is a conservation
center, and while those results may be very valid for him, anything I
would state would be just an opinion and I could not refute anything
he said at all.
I would say in working with young men in a conservation center, I
have found in my dealings with them that the conservation center
does do the job of helping the person in the area, but we also do a
tremendous job in what we turn back to the Nation, too, in the way of
work proj ects accomplished and with the proposed workweek going
down to 32 hours and more people spending time in leisure time-
Mr. SCHERLE. What is that about the proposed 32-hour workweek?
Mr. FIJLLBRIGHT. That has been talked about for years.
Mr. SCHERLE. Then there is going to be a lot of moonlighting.
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. Possibly so, but the main point is this: That also
there will be people who will have to make constructive use of their
leisure time and that this is another thing that we are accomphshmg
in the conservation center-how to make proper use of leisure time-
PAGENO="0687"
2119
and I feel and I believe and I know that we are doing a job in the
conservation center not only for a young man, but we are giving back
to the public also.
Mr. SCHERLE. Do you mean you are also training these people how
to lead a leisure life?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. No, I mean we are exposing them to a type of
leisure time activity that would be of benefit and profit to them and
the children that will come after them and possibly break this poverty
addict that we are talking about.
Mr. SCHERLE. In other words, you are telling me you are training
them on how to have fun in their leisure time.
Mr. FIJLLBRIGHT. No, I am only telling you we are exposing them to
leisure time activities to which they have not been exposed to before,
such as plays, drama, and so on.
Mr. SCHERLE. Is that the only function of a Job Corps center, to
teach them how to have fun?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. No, sir, I am talking about cultural activities.
After 8 hours, that is a part of the training. You see, you train the
whole man, not just part of him.
Mr. SCHERLE. I am not sure that Congress intended "cultural
activities" for the Job Corps. When he leaves that Job Corps center,
what is the followthrough that you contribute? Do you place him or
do you turn him over to the Employment Service?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. Both.
Mr. SCHERLE. What is your rate of placement?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. As I mentioned in the earlier part of my testi-
mony, since coming to Ottowa we have a working agreement with
Chrysler. We have gone into other cities in Ohio, Sandusky, Toledo,
and other places, to relocate our youngsters where they can get jobs.
Mr. SCHERLE. Again, what percent do you place?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. Of the young men of the total output, I could
give you some numbers.
Mr. SCHERLE. I just want to know what the percent of gradu-
ates-
Chairman PERKINS. Let him give the numbers and we can figure
out the percentage.
Mr. SCHERLE. It is real simple to tell me 50 or 30 percent. How
many graduates do you place?
Chairman PERKINS. Let him give the facts.
Mr. FTJLLBRIGHT. If I gave you a figure, it would not be accurate.
It would only be an estimate or opinion.
Mr. SCHERLE. Out of every 100 graduates you have, how many
of those do you place? Would you say 20, 30?
Mr. FTJLLBRIGHT. It would still be difficult for me to say. Do you
mean as a center how many do we place?
Mr. SCHERLE. Yes. How many?
Mr. FTJLLBRIGHT. Do you mean how many go home and find
placement?
Mr. SCHERLE. I don't know if you give them a diploma or what
you do to them when they graduate.
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. It depends on the category.
Mr. SCHERLE. A graduate is a graduate, whether he is being taught
to run heavy equipment or anything else.
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. Not in the conservation center.
PAGENO="0688"
2120
Mr. SCHERLE. In other words, you do not know what percent of
your graduates you place.
Chairman PERKINS. I hate to interrupt here, but we will suspend
and recess and see if we can get a quorñm here.
All of the members on both sides of the committee will be invited
in. Right now we are trying to get a meeting of the full committee
and not recess at all.
Mr. Fullbright, you will be excused for a few minutes and we will
recall you.
(Whereupon, at 11 :20 a.rn., tile task force adjourned, and the full
committee went into executive session.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
Mr. STOKES (presiding). The committee will now come to order.
Mr. Fulibright, I believe you were our last witness just prior to
the recess. As I recall, Mr. Scherle, the gentleman from Iowa, posed
a question to you. Had you completed your answer or do you have
anything more to add to that, sir?
STATEMENT OP JOHN PULLBRIGHT, DIRECTOR, OTTOWA JOB CORPS
CENTER, PORT CLINTON, OHIO-Resumed
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have. Since that time I
have called back to my center. He was particularly interested in
our placement. I would like to give him some comparative figures.
During the period from July 1, 1967, to June 30, 1968, we had
20 men who were sent back to their respective homes to await job
placement. During that same period, we had 26 men who were
placed directly by the center, seven men to go to military service,
six men to go back to school.
For the period of July 1, 1968, through April 5, 1969, the center
has directly placed 117 people. This is primarily due to the fact that
regardless of their status, all efforts are made by the personnel at
tile center to contact employers wherever the man seeks employment
to get him placed. It is partially due to the fact that during this
period the conservation center program did extensive work on P~'i-
400-15, our vocational training manual, and by the efforts of center
personnel in the area to place people in corporations like Chrysler
and Kodak.
During the same period we had 25 people return home to await
job placement, we had nine return to school, six to military service,
and 62 to tra.nsfer to lu~ban centers.
Mr. STOKES. Does that complete your answer?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. STEIGER. it is my understanding that the placement by
Ottowa Center for calendar year 1968 was 66.7 percent; is that
correct?
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. Those appear to be correct.
Mr. STEIGER. That is the figure we have been given for that calen-
dar year. Thank you.
Thauk you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. STOKES. We have no further questions, Mr. Fulibright.
PAGENO="0689"
2121
On behalf of the chairman of the full committee, we certainly
thank you for having attended and testifying here, and for the con-
tribution you have made to these hearings.
Mr. FULLBRIGHT. Thank you.
Mr. STOKES. Without objection, I will place in the record a letter.
CLINTON MEN'S WEAR, INC.,
Port Clinton, Ohio, May ~, 1969.
Hon. CARL PERKINS,
Chairman, Labor and Education Committee,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: Reference is made to the announcement that the ad-
ministration intends closing Ottawa Job Conservation Center at Camp Perry,
Ohio.
It appears that the closing is being sold as an economy measure. What is to
become of the numerous buildings and equipment at Ottawa Center which in-
cludes dormitories, kitchens, dining halls, a large gymnasium, body mechanics
building, carpentry shops and classrooms. According to information received
nearly 90 percent who completed the program were placed in a skilled trade.
It is hard to believe that better results could be obtained in larger cities.
I have had the opportunity to observe the program and to see the results of
such training at the Ottawa Job Center. I feel the instructors have done an ex-
cellent job.
I hope after reviewing the program your committee will decide to give at least
another year's life to a very good training program.
Sincerely yours,
CHAS. A. SCHERER.
Mr. STOKES. The next witness will be Mr. May D. Wilson.
Mr. Wilson, do you have a prepared statement?
STATEMENT OF MAY D. WILSON, CHAIRMAN, MISSISSIPPI HEAD-
START DIRECTORS ASSOCIATION, CLARKSDALE, MISS.
Mr. WILsoN. That is correct, and for the sake of the record I
would like to read it as it is and if there are questions concerning it,
we should like to entertain them.
Mr. STOKES. Feel free to proceed in any manner you so desire, sir.
Mr. WILSoN. Mr. Chairman, honorable members of this committee,
I am May Donald Wilson, Headstart director of Coahoma Opportun-
ities, Inc., of Clarksdale, Miss.
I am appearing before this committee as chairman of the State of
Mississippi Headstart Directors' Association, the official Headstart
Directors' Association of the State of Mississippi.
Present with me is Mr. Cleve McDowell, coordinator of the Mis-
sissippi Headstart Training Coordinating Council, an agency created
to plan a comprehensive training program for the employees of Head-
start agencies in the State of Mississippi.
With the permission of this committee, I shall present testimony
which reflects the thinking, the goals, and the commitments of the
Mississippi Headstart Directors' Association. The State Directors'
Association which represents the leadership of the more than 8877
Headstart employees, some 29,316 children and various related in-
stitutions and programs.
By mandate of the Director's Association, my testimony shall
consider the following matters:
1. The delegation of Headstart to HEW must be an honest effort
to improve Headstart.
PAGENO="0690"
2122
2. Control of the training for Headstart personnel must remain
with its own institutions.
3. The financing and budgetary procedures must not hamper the
Headstart program.
4. The comprehensive character of the Headstart program must
remain essentially the same.
5. The Headstart program could provide better service if it were
coordinated with other related HEW agencies by placing them under
the Department of Child Development.
I shall discuss the matters in that order.
The delegation must be honest. The poor people of Mississippi are
gravely concerned about the future of the poverty program. Histori-
cally, the poor of America have been used, misused, and abused all
over this "industrial giant," especially in the racist State of Miss-
issippi. While America has cried out in righteous indignation at the
sights and stories of poverty, it has in too many instances acquiesced
and thereby promoted the efforts of the oppressors.
Recently the Federal Government has made some efforts to alleviate
the plight of poor people. Unfortunately, the bigots of this Nation
are making every effort possible to prevent the poor from becoming
a part of the mainstream of American opportunity. In too many
instances, that which the Federal Government has given, the State
has taken away. It is not then difficult to understand why the poor
of Mississippi are concerned about proposed changes relating to their
well being which are vague and uncertain.
If Headstart is to be delegated or transferred, legislation should
spell out as how Health, Education, and Welfare is to conduct the
program. It is recommended that:
1. OEO be able to review the delegated policies of HEW on the
developmental progress already made with due consideration given.
2. An appellate procedure created in order to allow the challenged
decisions of HEW to be reviewed with a representation for Mississippi
approved by Headstart Directors' Association of ~`1ississippi included
in the appellate group.
3. A monitoring system be set up to insure compliance with the
legislation.
The poor of Mississippi oppose the delegation or transfer of Head-
start to HEW or elsewhere unless the spirit of Headstart is maintained
and built in by legislation to safeguard against the evils of local
politicians.
We cannot stress too strongly the fact that we do not want the
future of Headstart to be determined by those who are responsible for
the creation of poverty. To prevent this, we further recommend that:
1. One-third of the members of the permanent advisory committee
that is to be set up, be composed of parents of Headstart children.
2. Some such parents should be from Mississippi recommended by
Headstart Directors' Association of Mississippi.
3. Relevant criteria for jobs be adopted to allow competent Head-
start personnel to transfer to HEW.
Control of training must be maintained by Headstart.
Because of the comprehensive nature of Headstart, traiiung is
needed for its personnel. Such training should therefore be strongly
influenced by those sensitive to Headstart. Any legislation which
PAGENO="0691"
2123
would subject the training needs of Headstart to local school boards
or State boards of education is strongly objectionable to the poor of
Mississippi.
The Headstart program must be protected from the possibility of
the State determining who works for Headstart.
We support the development of a national model for certification
that will include the criteria of effective on-the-job training for
paraprofessionals.
The financing and budgetary procedures must aid program.
The procedure for funding programs must be reasonable; we oppose
completely any form of "block grants" to the State. Such grants
would support the States and destroy the Headstart program.
The contract should insure that the nature of Headstart be main-
tained and not take on the traditional orientation of the agencies
moving over from the Children's Bureau.
Funds allocated to Headstart should be used for that purpose.
Follow through training should not be strengthened at the expense of
IE[eadstart.
The comprehensive character must be maintained.
We strongly urge that nothing short of the present comprehensive
character of Headstart be permitted. In a State like Mississippi only
a comprehensive program will meet the needs of the poor. The medical,
social service, and educational systems are a "joke" in Mississippi. Yet,
the character of Headstart from its inception has remained compre-
hensive.
Headstart should be coordinated with other agencies.
All too often related services are duplicated and are ineffective
because they are spread throughout the bureaucratic structure of the
Government. To lessen such possibilities, we suggest that related
programs such as child health services, child welfare service, and
AFDC, be placed under the Department of Child Development.
Many people in this world wonder why poverty flourishes in this, the
richest country on the globe. They wonder why the poor riot in the
ghettos. They wonder why minorities are not satisfied with traditional
handouts. One cannot achieve if he is ignorant. One cannot secure the
blessings of liberty if he is unhealthy.
Mr. Chairman, members of this committee, and America, we urge
you to preserve and protect the benefits that Headstart is providing
to the underprivileged of this Nation.
Thank you.
Mr. STOKES. Mr. Eilson, on page 1 of your prepared testimony you
make this comment. "In too many instances that which the Federal
Government has given the State has taken away."
Would you care to elaborate on this statement to any extent or
enlighten us a little more in that respect?
Mr. WILSON. I can give you an example of allocations made under
title I which have been refused by school systems because of the desire
not to comply with the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and that existed in
my own hometown of Clarksdale, Miss.
Mr. STOKES. Are there any Negroes on your State board in Mis-
sissippi?
Mr. WILSON. No.
Mr. STOKES. What about local board of education? Is there any
Negro representation there?
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2124
Mr. WILSON. I think, and I will have to think on this, there is
possibly one or two. In our county we have two boards, a city and a
county board. There is no representation in the form of Negro member-
ship. I am speculating because I don't know the most current statistics
but I think there are at least two, not more than two in the State of
Mississippi on the boards of education.
Mr. STOKES. With relation to the youngsters enrolled in the Head-
start program, the ratio of white versus black pupils, can you give us
any figures to relate to that?
Mr. WILSON. I am afraid I don't have figures to support what ratios
exist within the total State of Mississippi. The majority of the par-
ticipants in the Headstart program in Mississippi are black. I think
this is simply because the majority of the poor in Mississippi are black.
Mr. STOKES. With reference to the block grant situation, have you
any additional comments that you would like to make supporting the
fact that you do oppose those?
Mr. WILSON. Recently the Governor of our State opposed a legal
services grant which to us is a denial of the rights of justice in the
courts to poor people. He made public his statement of opposition
to a grant that was being let in their behalf. We feel that this kind of
history and this kind of statement suggests that if block grants are
made to the State itself, then programs of Headstart will be watered
down and eventually used for some other sources other than those to
which they would address themselves.
Mr. STOKES. Mr. Steiger.
Mr. STEIGER. Thank you, Chairman Stokes.
May I follow up that block grant question and say I know of no
one who has proposed that we implement a block grant proposal
for Headstart.
Mr. WILSON. I would like to comment if you would allow me
to, sir. I think that in the public statement that our Governor and
some of our Congressmen made, it was to the effect that if grants
came through, the State departments would oppose such grants.
Mr. STEIGER. I have heard no one on either side of the aisle,
or Secretary Finch, indicate any desire to go to a block grant type
of program for the Headstart program.
In your statement you have raised a number of points with which
I think all of us would agree. There are a couple, however, that I
would like to pursue, if I may.
Is there a parent advisory committee for Headstart in OEO?
Mr. Wilson. To my knowledge, no.
Mr. STErnER. Thus there are no parents from Mississippi on any
advisory committee.
Mr. WILSON. That is correct.
Mr. STEIGER. You have recommended and, as you know, Secretary
Finch has indicated his intent to create an advisory committee for
the delegated Headstart program in the new Office of Child Develop-
inent. May I say that your testimony will certainly be brought to
his attention.
Do I take from this statement, however, that were there no parents
from Mississippi to be included on that advisory committee, you then
don't think it is a good idea to delegate the Headstart program?
Mr. WILSON. That is not the intent of our statement. Our state-
ment is, we are concerned that Mississippi's representation is Present
PAGENO="0693"
2125
on that committee if the committee or the Secretary would entertain
that suggestion.
We feel very strongly because of the unique political structure of
Mississippi. Mississippi represents a unique problem so far as poor
people are concerned.
Mr. STEIGER. I appreciate your clarification of that question.
No. 3 on your second page reads: "Relevant criteria for jobs be
adopted to allow competent Headstart personnel to transfer to
`HEW." That is one which has been already taken care of.
As you know, all of those presently in the Headstart program in
OEO will be given an opportunity to transfer to HEW. The Parents
Advisory Committee is, as I recall, and that is why I asked the
question of you, a new feature. It is not now present in OEO, and
I appreciate you supporting the creation of an advisory committee
which does include the parents, of Headstart children.
I do not have Secretary Finch's testimony before me but, as I
recall his statement he came down very hard on maintaining the
comprehensive nature of the Headstart program, parental problem.,
health programs, nutritional, educational, dental, all of the things
which are now a part of the Headstart program.
Based on this, am I correct in assuming that you are here today
making a plea on behalf of preserving and enhancing and maintaining
those features of Headstart which you support, and urging that when
a delegation takes place, these be continued in the new child develop-
ment agency?
Mr. WILSON. That is correct. Let me say however, to date we have
not had access to any testimony that has been given directly on the
part of the Secretary or any of the other participants who have been
called in. We have seen some things in the news but they are very
vague. Consequently, we tried to spell out some of the areas with
which we were primarily concerned. If they are taken away, especially
the comprehensive nature program, how it would affect programs in
Mississippi.
Mr. STEIGER. If they are not taken away you have no objection to
the delegation of the IHeadstart program?
Mr. WILSON. I am trying to represent today I am privileged to say
more than my own views. It is the feeling of the Association of
Mississippi Headstart directors to support the delegation of agreement
without knowing what the delegation of agreement is to be is very
difficult to do. To support an eventual transfer is even more difficult
unless we can determine what the structure shall be. So we are only
trying to represent what our `views are with respect to the effect of
the program remaining to OEO or delegated or transferred to HEW.
We are thinking basically about the quality and effectiveness of the
Headstart program in Mississippi.
Mr. STEIGER. That is a perfectly legitimate statement for you to
make. What is the amount of money that is now in the Headstart
program that. comes to the State of Mississippi?
Mr. WILSON. I am afraid I am not prepared to answer that.
Mr. STEIGER. Can you go back and find that out and furnish that
`for the record?
Mr. WILSON. I can try. Are you asking: Can I send it back to you?
Mr. STEIGER. Yes. .
PAGENO="0694"
2126
Mr. WILSON. Yes, of course.
Mr. STEIGER. I will ask unanimous consent that that be inserted.
Mr. WILSON. I have the information, but I do not have it with me.
(The information requested follows:)
CARL D. PERKINS,
Chairman, Committee on Education and Labor,
Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, D.C.:
In response to a request by the Committee on Education and Labor in testimony
given by May Wilson on May 7, my findings indicate that $32,862,472 were
allocated to Mississippi in 1968 for 4-year program.
MAYO D. WILSoN,
Clarksdale, Miss.
Mr. STEIGER. How many Headstart programs are there in Missis-
sippi?
Mr. WILSON. Twenty-eight.
Mr. STEIGER. Separate programs?
Mr. WILSON. Yes. However, some of those are gigantic programs
covering some 20 counties.
Mr. STEIGER. What is next? Child development? Do you count that
as one Headstart program?
Mr. WILSON. We do count that as one Headstart program. How-
ever, it is a multicounty program. The same for the Mississippi County
programs covering several counties.
Mr. STEIGER. Do you have a Headstart program in Clarksdale?
Mr. WILSON. Yes.
Mr. STEIGER. Are you the director?
Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. It is the Coahoma County that includes
Clarksdale.
Mr. STEIGER. How many Headstart children do you have?
Mr. WILSON. At this time we have 56.
Mr. STEIGER. Thank you, and thank you for coming to the com-
mittee.
Mr. STOKES. Is that 56 just in that county?
Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. STOKES. Statewide how many children are involved?
Mr. WILSON. We have accounted for at this particular point 29,316
children in the State of Mississippi.
Mr. STEIGER. How many is that compared to last year? As I
recall, Mississippi took a cut in the number of children serviced; is
that correct?
Mr. WILSON. That is correct. I don't remember even a good
approximate figure but it was a tremendous cut. Our area was able
to maintain by adjustment its level of coverage as far as children's
se'vices are concerned.
Mr. STOKES. Have you had Headstart there since its beginning?
Mr. WILSON. Yes; we have had Headstart in Mississippi since
1965.
Mr. STOKES. Mr. Hathaway.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Could you tell me what the psychological effect
has been of the announcement that Headstart was going to be trans-
ferred as far as you know in Mississippi? What has been the reaction?
Mr. WILsON. Of the people, that Headstart would be transferred?
Mr. HATHAWAY. Yes.
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Mr. WILSON. First of all, I might say it appears to me that there
is a concern about a possibility of three things-Headstart remaining
in OEO or being delegated to HEW, or being transferred. Are you
asking about the complete transfer nature?
Mr. HATHAWAY. The complete transfer.
Mr. STEIGER. If my colleague will yield, no one has proposed that
it be completely transferred. It is a delegation.
Mr. HATHAWAY. It is the effect of a delegation. We will call it a
delegation. The effect of it is a complete transfer in my opinion.
Mr. STEIGER. On the contrary, I would take serious objection to
that.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Not to my opinion.
Mr. STEIGER. Never to your opinion.
Mr. WILSON. My answer would hang very much I think on your
objection there. There is a sensitive difference to the feeling in Mis-
sissippi about transfer and delegation, and also there is a feeling
about what is it going to mean. Is it going to be just an idea or an
active procedure and followed through?
This is why we recommended some system of monitoring, a board
of appeals and process of appeal or a challenge to whatever opera-
tions of Headstart turn out to be. The people of Mississippi are
afraid in some instances of transfer to HEW based on, first of all,
the old line institutions under HEW. The school systems in Mis-
sissippi are strongly discriminated against the black people. So, I
think, psychologically this is where the very, very strong feelings
exist, and this is why we are very strongly recommending the kinds of
things we are so we can protect the image of Headstart and the
sense in which Headstart was created.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Thank you very much.
Mr. STOKES. Mr. Wilson, we secured for you a copy of the state-
ment of Mr. Robert Finch, Secretary of the Department of HEW.
You may take that back with you so you will have an opportunity
to know what he testified to before our committee.
At this time, then, let me thank you for appearing before the
committee and thank you for the contribution which you have made.
Mr. WILSON. Thank you.
Mr. STOKES. For the benefit of the committee, we have a letter
from Mr. Paul E. Ingram, executive secretary, Port Clinton Area
Chamber of Commerce requesting unanimous consent to have this
letter introduced into the record immediately following the testimony
of Mr. Fullbright. Without objection, it is so ordered.
We also have requests for unanimous consent to enter and make
a part of the record certain letters which were testified to yesterday
by the United Church Women Panel. We ask unanimous consent to
enter these and make them a part of the record.
(The documents follow:)
PORT CLINTON CHAMBER OF COMMERCE,
Port Clinton, Ohio, May 2, 1969.
Hon. CARL D. PERKINS,
Chairman, Education and Labor,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR MR. PERKINS: Due to what we considered a decision of grave importance
to our community and the youth of our state and the several states involved in
this issue, a survey and poii was made so that we would have a clear and honest
approach to present to you.
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2128
Our concern is in regards to the phasing out of the Ottawa Job Corps Center,
located here at Camp Perry, Port Clinton, Ohio, in Ottawa county. Will mention
first the selfish motive, in the economical structure which is, in most cases of simila.r
magnitude, most often looked for. Would like to say in several cases, where the
ones most involved were asked for their opinions, their answers were, "We benefit
from this but would sacrifice our benefits, through the business obtained, if we
felt it would help in the overall economy; however, we do not believe it will pro-
vide the answer to a problem as seriously and deep-rooted as Job Corps eatails."
It is our opinion, if this was to be a complete phasing out of this endeavor, we
would have to go along with it hut, as it is only a spot pick endeavor toward a
cut-back, we feel justified in our attempt to plead for the continuation of this
location as a training unit for these young people, based on the following:
Considerable money has been spent to prepare this location for Job Corps
training, plus all necessary equipment. Located strategically for the area served,
both incoming and out placement, area served comprising boys from some 17
states. As we understand, another similar training center is being considered in
the Cleveland, Ohio area after this closing is completed. Where there is any
economy in a relocation of the approach to the same results obtained, we fail to
see.
Speaking in behalf of our present Job Corps unit, Mr. John L. Fulbright, Jr.,
local manager, has done and is doing an excellent job; his staff, 48 in all, work
closely with their boys, and have their respect. This young group coming in are
taught, along with their basics, respect and behavior. They are, when in the
business section, respectful and courteous, which proves good supervision.
Mr. Fulbright, a Negro gentleman, is dealing with-on an average basis-60%
Negro boys, 40% mixed, which includes whites, Puerto-Rican, and occasionally
others.
As to the economics, we believe this training unit is operating with a fine
record, both cost-wise and with a very low-drop-out percentage. We also believe
much more will be lost than gained with the closing down of this training unit,
both from the standpoint of what these boys are receiving here and the savings
to our Government in uprooting an established and necessary profile of these
boys' future.
Therefore, it is our sincere desire that this Job Corp Center he seriously con-
sidered from all angles and your decision made favorable to keep it in operation.
Sincerely,
PAUL E. INGRAM,
Executive Secretary.
CLEVELAND, OHIo, May 1, 1969.
DEAR SIR: My life before entering Job Corps was much like any other young
woman's from a low income family. Although most of these girls are not high
school graduates and have at least one child, I was more fortunate. I was a high
school graduate.
Most young people do not realize that when they graduate from high school
their problems are just beginning. Most are (like myself) not Prepared to get or
hold a job.
Unskilled factory jobs like menial jobs will soon become obsolete and these
types of jobs do not build faith, confidence (in one's self or the world in which
he lives), or initiative. All of which are important for a man to pass on to his
descendants in order to keep them off the Welfare Rolls, and better qualified to
live decently in a fastly progressing world.
I tell you all this because I was unaware of these things until I had completed
my training in Job Corps.
Job Corps does what low income will not allow parents to do. It opens new
vistas, helps to build character, makes you aware of your own potential and that
which surrounds you, and last but not least brings about a maturity which most
people never reach because no one took time to care.
Being as intelligent and capable as the next person, without Job Corps I would
never have been given the opportunity to become the well-equipped, efficient
Secretary I am today.
Job Corps has given me more than just a skill it has given me respect, incentive,
and a future.
Sincerely yours,
MAXINE HOLy.
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WOMEN IN COMMUNITY SERVICE, INC.,
Cleveland, Ohio, April 30, 1969.
SUMMARY OF INFORMATION FROM OUR FILES ON MILNER, ROSEMARY DENISE
Miss Mimer came to our office applying for Job Corps at the suggestion of her
foster mother. She had been placed in a foster home by Ohio Youth Commission.
The applicant was very much motivated to get training for a job that would give
her earning power and position. She was quiet, pleasant, poised. She didn't want
to go back to school because the majority of students are a bad influence in the
neighborhood where she would have to attend. They called her "square" for
wanting to be serious and well behaved. She indicated that she was under their
influence before being sent to Girls Industrial School, but she has now changed
and has goals for herself. Interestingly enough, she expressed a desire to he a
psychiatrist or in a related field of helping people. Likes to work with children.
She had a deplorable home situation and had been placed in a foster home. We
do not have copies of the court forms and hence cannot report the details but
apparently it was documented for evaluation at the time of interview (1967).
Ohio Youth Commission workers felt she was an excellent candidate. She was
reported to be a positive influence for the other girls. She was determined to make
a good adjustment in the group home to which she had been sent from GIS, this
in the face of a conflictual setting in the home brought on by girls who were
unable to make satisfactory adjustments. Her earlier failure to adjust during
her first placements was due partially to negative factors in the father's home
and a series of difficulties involving personality conflict in the foster home. Ohio
Youth Commission gave her one of the best recommendations we have ever
received.
She is certainly an example of the girl with the background of deprived ex-
perience that gets turned toward self realization and cooperated wholeheartedly
with a program that could help her realize her aim in life. Job Corps was what
Rosemary Ivlilner needed and she was an asset to Job Corps.
Mrs. BARTHOLD HOLDSTEIN,
Project Director.
JOBS CROPS CENTER FOR WOMEN,
Excelsior, Springs, Mo., May 1969.
Reference letter for Denise Milner.
To Whom It May Concern:
Our IBM Card Punch Course was a special endeavor in which we cooperated
with Internal Revenue Service's "Midwest Service Center" which is located at
2306 E. Bannister Road, Kansas City, Missouri. This is one of seven similar cen-
ters located throughout the United States utilizing an Automatic Data processing
System to process Income Tax Returns.
This young lady spent approximately 2 weeks taking her Pre-Employment Card
Punch Operator Training Course which covered the basic operations of the IBM
024 Card Punch Machine and the IBM 056 Verifier. After she successfully com-
pleted this course, she was transferred to a section where she worked on Actual
Income Tax Records for about 16 weeks.
In order for this young lady to take our IBM Card Punch Course, she had to be
up and on our bus by 6 a.m. each week day for a two-hour ride to the IRS Center
where ~he worked from 6~4 to 8 hours. This young lady has proven her aptitude
and dedication by successfully completing 5 months of very intensive On-the-Job
Training. Because of her application, I believe that she will make an effective
IBM Card Punch Operator if she is given an opportunity to prove her worth.
PERCY WALKER,
Coordinator, Office Occupation Department.
JOB CORPS CENTER FOR WOMEN,
Excelsior Springs, Mo., March 14, 1969
Name: Milner, Denise, Cleveland, Ohio.
To Whom It May Concern:
Miss Denise Mimer has made excellent adjustment to the Job Corps group-
living and vocational programs.
Her strongest personal attributes are congeniality and the ability to work
harmoniously with others. She accepts responsibility for her actions and for the
actions of the group of which she is a part.
27-754-69-pt. 3-45
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Denise is considerate of the rights of others, learns quickly and adjusts easily
to stressful situations. She is also diligent in her efforts at self-improvement. In
my opinion she has the ability to do a good job and will be a valuable addition
to any staff.
I heartily recommend her for employment and I am certain that she will do her
job well.
Sincerely,
PAUL BERTHELOT,
Senior Counselor.
JOB CORPS CENTER FOR WOMEN,
Excelsior, Springs, Mo., April 1969.
GRADUATION REPORT FOR VOCATIONAL COURSES
IBM Card Punch On-the-Job Training: (IBM 024 Card Punch Machine & 056
Verifier) 6 months (960 hrs) Rating: Good Alphabetic and Numeric training and
experience working on Actual Data at the Internal Revenue Service Center, 2306
E. Bannister Road, Kansas City, Missouri 64131.
Typing I (1\'Irs. Shaffer) 6 months (120 hrs) Rating: Good. Average Speed:
~52 w.a.m. 2 errors (std. 5-minute timing).
Business Seminary (~ir. I\Iunn) 3 months (60 hrs.) Rating: Good. Discussions,
Films, Lecturers, Field Trips, Demonstrations, Office Human Relations, Phonetics
Phone Usage.
STUDENT DEPORTMENT SUMMARY
Attendance: Fair Course Knowledge: Good
Attitudes: Good Impression on others: Good
Effort: Good Quality of Work: Good
Leadership Potentials: Fair Ability to learn: Good
Supervision required: Minimum Grooming: Good
PERCY WALKER, Coordinator Office Occuvation Department.
Mrs. JAMES ROBINSON, April 26, 1969.
Cleveland, Ohio.
DEAR MRS. ROBINSON: I am one of Charleston Job Corps Graduates. I am
writing this letter for you to read to congress and president Nixon. I am an elec-
tronics major. I am now working at Clevite Corporation Brush Instruments
Division.
I could not have made it without the help from Job Corps because through
them I got my experience in electronics. I love my work, But most of all I love
my Job Corps Center the best.
Mrs. Robinson I cannot put into my words what my Center means to me but
I can say this Charleston Job Corps Center is tops in my book. Deep in my heart
I feel a hurt for my center please please don't close down Job Corps most of all
not Charleston Center for you see this Center means a great deal to me and the
people there that I learn to love and work with.
Job Corps is a new world for Corpwomen especially like me and others like
are Charleston Graduates. For you see before I went to Job Corps I was a dropout
not because I wanted to leave school but because I was in a special class. You
see when you are a special class person I could not go up any higher than the 8th
grade. I misst out of going to high school through Job Corps I felt like I was
some body really now. I have made it through Job Corps. I am some body I
am a Job Corp Graduate this means the whole world to me. Mrs. Robinson I
am sending you some of my pictures for you to show and explain to them what
Job Corps really means to people like me. I became a corpswoman of-the-Month
of 1966. Job Corps is the best thing that. ever happen to me in my life. I am a
graduate in Drivers Education program out of 100 girls from my center so you
see Mrs Robinson Charleston Job Corps Center means so very much to me.
I also was a member of are Speech choir this was one of the most highest
honors I could ever have for you see it was very hard to get into speech choir.
Mrs. Norman is are director she is a very wonderful person, for you see she taught
me a great deal without her love and understanding I could not have made it,
it is a very hard road to walk down when you are a peron like me. There are a
few more things I would like to say and that is we have some wonderful counselors
I had one very close counselor her name is Mrs. Jeanne B. McNeil to me she is
the greatest person I ever had the pleasure of knowing and working with me.
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Mrs. Robinson she was always right there when you needed her for help or when
you needed some understanding.
Mrs. Robinson I have made it through Job Corps because I had a counselor
that cared for me whether I made it or not. When my day came to leave my
center to go on to my Job Corps Y.W.C.A. program on to Wilmington Del.
I just cryed my head off for you see I really loved my Job Corps center, my coun-
selor Mrs. McNeil. I finished Job Corps Y.W.C.A. program as a outstanding
Graduate of Job Corps. Please Mrs Robinson explain this to President Nixon
and the congressmen. How Job Corps means to me.
Sincerely yours,
GBRILYN KABAT.
STATE OF CONNECTICUT,
COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS AND OPPORTUNITIES,
Hartford, Conn., April 22, 1969.
Mrs. M. ROBINSON,
Cleveland, Ohio.
DEAR MRS. ROBINSON: How are you all? Fine I hope and hope you all be in
the very best of health when you receive this letter. Give everyone my best
wishes and tell them hello for me.
I am sorry for not writing you all in so long, please forgive me, because I didn't
write you all. I had a lot of things to do in the past month, and as you can see
I am in the YWCA now, and that is one reason why I wanted to wait until now
to write. I graduate from Marquette, Michigan March 17, I left there the 29th
coming here to the YWCA and I was placed to a job a week later. This is all
Still part of the job training. I will be finished in about 3 more months.
When I were in Marquette I were training at the Marine Corp Recruiting office
for 6 weeks, but I wasn't quite sure of my self of going out and geting a job on
my own just then so I came to the YWCA for more training, so I will only be
here 2 or 3 months, and I am training at the International Association of Official
Human Rights Agencies The same heading that's at the top of the page. So
when I finish here I can come home and you will have my good job waiting for
me. Smile.
I am puting my address on this letter to so you can understand it better.
Miss Margret Ann Orr
JC-YWCA
155 Broad Street
Woolverton Hall
Hartford, Connecticut 06105
Mrs. Robinson do the girls still have meeting there every Friday afternoon?
I miss it there but that's allright I will be finish soon and I will be back, and I
will be back with what I wanted, and I am so happy I decided to come to Job
Corp and I hope I made you all happy for me to for finishing what I wanted.
So Mrs. Robinson I am going to close write here and you will here from me again
soon.
Sincerely,
MARGRET ORR.
SHAKER HEIGHTS, OHIO,
April 29, 1969.
DEAR MARGARET: I am delighted to hear that you will be in Washington next
week, to present to Congress our views of the recent developments in the opera-
tion of Job Corps Centers.
I don't need to remind you of my close association with WICS since its inception
4 years ago. During that time I have been a house visitor, an interviewer and
have had the privilege of working with you as assistant Project Director.
I have become more and more keenly aware of the need for many girls to be
trained, so they can be given a new experience of work and study, a positive,
responsible outlook on life, a chance to become self-supporting citizens and live
constructive lives in dignity and freedom.
For many of these girls this help means complete re-education and requires
removal from a home atmosphere that would only destroy what we are trying to
build.
I feel very strongly that to deny our deprived youth this chance to improve and
* learn, is a very dangerous, irresponsible action and a very costly one in terms of
human values as well as finances.
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The young women who are refused training and rehabilitation will in all proba-
bility be dependent on welfare funds for years; they may lapse (in most cases I
should say relapse) into delinquency and require institutional care-a very costly
alternative to the training and re-education program of Job Corps.
And, of course, uppermost in my mind is the feeling that once again promises are
broken, hopes are shattered and the poor lose faith in our society. In these times of
unrest and dissatisfaction, this lack of concern is a very dangerous and cruel
course.
Our girls may be unable to express their aspirations, their hopes and their dis-
appointments-We, who through our volunteer work have gotten to know them
well, have a duty to speak for them.
I know you'll represent them-and us well in Washington. Good luck!
Affectionately,
Mrs. HOWARD M. KOHN.
SHAKER HEIGHTS, OHIO, April 1969.
STATEMENT SUPPORTING MRS. JAMES ROBINSON IN HER TESTIMONY IN BEHALF OF
JOB CORPS:
Though only a very recent volunteer in the WICS program servicing Job Corps,
I am keenly aware of the necessity for maintaining residential training centers at
their present capacity. What better crime prevention is their than keeping our
untrained, disadvantaged youth off the streets and teaching them the skills they
will need to find employment? Surely it is better to use the centers for that purpose
than for camps for protestors-a possibility referred to by the Newsweek reporter
during the Meet the Press interview with Secretary of Labor Schultz on Sunday,
April 27 based on assistant attorney general Kliendienst's statement in the May
Atlantic Monthly-or for training the National Guard, as was mentioned in the
Cleveland Plain Dealer of April 29 in page 6A. I urgently request reconsideration
of the decision to Job-Corps Centers.
BETTY HOLDSTEIN.
APRIL 28, 1969.
DEAR MRS. ROBINSON: Am really taken aback, by the report that Job Corps,
is to be dissolved, in many cities, including Cleveland.
Several weeks ago, I sent President Nixon, a day letter, congratulating him, on
an article, appearing in the Sarasota Herald Tribune, stating that Job Corps, is to
be continued, this year.
I related my association, with W.I.C.S., in Cleveland, for the past three years.
How heart warming, and satisfying as an American citizen, to see the results, of
the efforts, we women, working together, had witnessed. The importance of taking
our girls, out of ethir environment helping them to know, self personal improve-
ment, and pride, along with thier Job Corps training.
How aware, they themselves are when being interviewed, that nothing can
happen for them, in their present home environment.
Their plea, before leaving an interview, to help them better themselves, so they
can eventually, help families of their own, to share in the many opportunities, our
Great County, has to offer.
I beg of you, Margaret, that you do all in your power, to have Job Corps,
continue!
Sincerely,
(i\'Irs. H. S.) BIRDIE MESHORER.
CLEVELAND HEIGHTS,
April 24, 1969.
Mrs. JAMES ROBINSON,
Cleveland, Ohio.
DEAR MARGARET: I have worked in Women In Community Service Inc. since
the inception of the Job Corps program because I believe it can change lives-I
have seen that it does. Girls from deprived circumstances have been turned in
thinking and action to productive, happy citizens with a new sense of self-realiza-
tion and self-worth. It is a cycle-breaking experience and there just has to he a
continued program with residential facilities where such vital change can take
place.
If we can, through the help our organization alone has given in guiding girls
to Job Corps, keep these young women in the mainstream of the labor force
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and off welfare rolls, the cost of their Job Corps training is more than written
off. In terms of their contribution to their family and their community, the worth
of the program is obvious.
I strongly urge the continuation of Job Corps residential facilities.
Sincerely yours,
Mrs. LAWRENCE G. KNECHT.
To whom it may concern:
It is unthinkable that the Women's Job Corps Centers will be closed-unthink-
able because of this program's proven worth in terms of rehabilitating the lives
of so many young women. We won't haggle costs-just to say, as compared to
supporting these young people all their lives on welfare, the taxpayer comes out
way ahead.
The girls though,-the girls literally lifted up and out of an apathetic, hostile
and dead-end environment are vitalized, given hope, purpose, self esteem, self
confidence-and the education and skill to come out of the Center self respecting
young women, soon absorbed in the working world. No educational and rebuild-
ing process is perfect. Surely, our cities' Boards of Education tangle with unsur-
mountable problems. The Centers have experiemented well and found methods
to teach these "lost" young people;-yes, truly lost and a drain on society, had
Job Corps not rescued them.
To receive phone calls from Job Corps girls-even after three years away from
WICS is a high point for me, and is not unusual. "Mrs. Herrick, I have a good
job at Clevite Brush Division. The other girls on the job like me, and I like them.
Even the boss is nice. And guess what I'm making!"
These lilting happy voices come frequently from girls exposed to Job Corps.
These same girls felt like "nobodys" when they went to a Center; but came away
"somebodys". We can't deny them this chance! We must not default on promises
and contracts made with them. Our society owes it to them!
Most sincerely,
MARJORIE M. HERRICK,
Cleveland WICS Project Director.
WOMEN IN COMMUNITY SERVICE, INC.,
Cleveland, Ohio, May 5, 1969.
To Whom It May Concern:
President Nixon was quoted in the Cleveland Plain Dealer and Cleveland
Press a few days ago as saying he wanted his policies to be "derived from open
eyes, open ears, open minds and open hearts." For four years WICS, in recruiting
and screening girls for Job Corp. have done this. We have seen with our eyes the
complete rejection by society of lonely young women, who without hope and a
helping hand will never rise above the hopelessness of their lives. We have heard
their cries of "please hell) me" with our ears but even more with our minds and
hearts because most of them don't even know how to ask for help because no one
has ever helped them before. Can you realize what it means not to know what the
word "help" really means?
We know, too, that some of the Job Corp. Centers need improvement and there
is much mismanagement, but it is a new program and one that has never been
tried before. It seems terribly wasteful and foolish to close the centers after all the
money that has been spent to open them and then to turn around and begin all
new programs at more expense. Local training programs are desperately needed-
hundreds of them but many of these young people must have residential facilities
because of their debilitating home environment.
Finally if the leaders of our country would really lead and show the way, I'm
sure there are thousands more volunteers who would help in the program if they
knew they were really needed and that they could help a fellow human being. I
firmly believe the only answer to our many problems is for each person to care
enough to do all in their power to really love "their brothers". But the people do
need to be shown the way and this takes leadership.
Very truly yours,
DOROTHY KOEBLITZ.
CLEVELAND, OHIO, April 28, 1969.
DEAR MARGARET: It's most reassuring to know that you will be actively
working in Washington to insure the continuation of the Job Corp program.
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Since working as a volunteer interviewer for the screening agency I am con-
vinced that this program offers real opportunity to young people who find them-
selves in unbelievably bad circumstances.
It offers security for the present and hope for the future where neither have
ever existed.
A check of the records will show that Corpsmen, given an opportunity, and a
goal, have gained stature for themselves and added stability to our communities.
Job Corp offers so much that is good my earnest hope is that it wifi continue.
In all sincerity,
MARGE SUTTON.
STATISTICS ON CLEVELAND WICS OPERATION
Since the beginning of our participation until January 31, 1969:
42 girls in Centers now.
88 went to Centers and didn't graduate.
55 graduated.
143 in past have been to a Center.
185 are now or have had experience at a Center.
30% of all the girls who have ever gone, graduated.
OHIO statistics received from Regional Coordinator in Chicago:
July 1968-February 1968
Applicants (female):
OSES 323
AFL 159
WICS 92
Total 574
Graduates (men & women) 413
Placement-Gatehouse and OSES (in jobs) 278
About 2/3 get placed-better % than most Manpower Training Programs.
Mrs. JAMES ROBINSON.
Mr. STEIGER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask unanimous consent
to insert in the record at this point a newspaper article from a news-
paper in Maine regarding the closing of the Poland Spring Job Corps
Center.
Mr. STOKES. Mr. Hathaway?
Mr. HATHAWAY. I would ask unanimous consent to also include a
newspaper article from the newspaper in Maine on the closing of the
Job Corps Center at Poland Spring-as a matter of fact, two articles.
(The documents follow:)
[From the Advertlser-Democract, Apr. 24, 19691
POLAND SPRING CLOSING
The horizon is dark for the Poland Spring Job Corps. The bright future that the
1100 girls there now had planned about when they came has been crushed by the
decision to close the facility May 1.
No real thought or planning has gone into the future of the girls now here.
Some are within weeks of graduating after months of study. Others are recent
arrivals with only hope ahead.
That is all right, close it down, say the great decision makers. These girls will
find a spot somewhere in the great works and the facilities that are or will be
available now or sometime.
The girls form Poland Springs have, at least 95 percent of them, made a good
impression with the people in this area. They are just a good cross section of teen
age girls, no different than any other 1100 girls picked at random from our other
public and private schools.
By far the most of these girls have worked hard at the center, studied and
played and studied some more to get something from the opportunity they had
here.
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This has been one of the very few spending sprees that has given the taxpayer
dollar return for a dollar in taxes. We have had the privilege of meeting and know-
ing some of these girls. We know the pride they have taken in their accomplish-
ments.
The impact on the area if the center closes will be financially heavy. The impact
of 400 workers and teachers losing their jobs will affect the communities.
The biggest impact will be the loss of faith by 1100 young women from deprived
homes in the great promises of government and government officials.
We are ashamed for those who have made the decision to close Poland Spring
and ashamed that we gave these short sighted officials our vote last November.
[From the Advertlser-Democract, Apr. 17, 1969]
OUR JOB CoRPs
With jaundiced eye, about three years ago, we went to the Poland Spring Job
Corps Center to talk to the first arrivals. To us this new project was just another
chance to throw away tax dollars and deficit dollars.
We soon learned after a few visits that the girls registered here were seriously
trying to get an education.
To be sure, just as in our public schools, a few free loaders are always present,
but the percentage at the Job Corps of hard-working students is just as high as in
any public or private school.
To be sure, some girls caused a bit of trouble. Their number was few, no more
than would be found at any school with 1,000 youngsters under 21 years old.
We got to know some of the students, to see their work, and to hear of their
dreams and ambitions, and we realized for once a big spending federal project
was getting a return on our tax dollars.
The record of the 4,600 girls who have finished their training would make any
school feel proud with their accomplishments.
We do not know first hand the record of other Job Corps Centers. We do know
the record at Poland Springs.
Now, Poland Spring is to be closed. The closing is not on merit or lack of merit.
This is the largest of the Job Corps centers, and even though its record of accom-
plishment is high, . . . its cost per graduate is low, it makes budget cutting easy
to cut our the largest, therefore the heaviest item on the budget.
We hope that someone in authority will see fit to restore this Job Corps Center.
If enough pressure is brought to bear maybe the order will be reversed.
We were anti-Job Corps until we saw that in this instance tax dollars have been
accomplishing much, and we want this accomplishment to continue.
We have purposely not said a word of the effect the closing of Poland Springs
will have on the economy of the area. The impact of the closing will definitely be
felt here. Many will lose their jobs, and many will move from the area who came
here as instructors and workers.
All this is important, but the heaviest impact is going to be on the 1300 girls
presently at the Center. They will once again get a lesson not to believe that any-
one really cares about them.
Even our own faith is shattered. We thought that for once something good was
coming out of the Federal Spending Spree. Maybe that is the reason for closing
the Center. The Federal Spenders want to keep their record clean.
Mr. STOKES. At this time we will call Mr. Paul Stickney and Mr.
Ivory Simmonds, from the Washington Prayer Breakfast.
STATEMENT OF PAUL H. STICK1~EY AND EVERETT W. HACKNEY,
REPRESENTING WASHINGTON PRAYER BREAKFAST
Mr. STICKNEY. Mr. Everett Hackney is with me instead of Mr.
Simmonds.
Mr. STOKES. He may accompany you.
Mr. STICKNEY. At this time we do not have a prepared statement
because some of the meetings about which we wish to bring to your
attention occurred yesterday and this morning.
PAGENO="0704"
2136
Mr. Chairman, our group, which is comprised of concerned citizens
of the Metropolitan Washington area, normally have our breakfast
at a restaurant at 14th and I, but this morning, because of our concern
we held it at the Washington Job Center.
We were still there at a time when Mr. Grantham and Mr. Bryant
of the Job Center were testifying before the full committee. We
regret because we had to make a report to the members of our break-
fast group that we were unable to attend and hear the testimony of
Mr. Grantham and Mr. Bryant.
In brief, several months ago we were made aware of this program
when Mr. Bryant and others associated with it attended our breakfast
and told us of the efforts that they had made as a subcontractor to
the Washington Board of Trade, of the operation of this center.
We were deeply impressed not only with the efficiency with which
this operation was being carried out but also the spirit within which
it was operated, and the humane concern for the people whom they
were serving.
A week ago yesterday members of the Northern Systems Co.
and members of the Board of Trade came to our breakfast and told
us that there was a danger of this center, in effect, closing down.
We were astonished by this and we determined that a committee of
which I was the chairman, would seek to help in whatever way we
could to find out whom we could speak with and try to save this
valuable installation and its functions.
The reason we wish to appear here was to relate the problems that
concerned citizens have when they seek not a redress of a grievance,
but to participate meaningfully and creatively in the operations of the
Government, and we approach this problem in the spirit of loving
concern for our community and our country. It was in this spirit
that I contacted the Office of the Secretary of Labor and explained
the problem and whom we represented. We were referred to Mr.
Arnold Weher's office, and in turn to Mr. Arnold Weber, who is the
Assistant Secretary for Manpower, who was out of town at the
time. This was immediately following the adjournment of our prayer
breakfast last Wednesday, precisely at 10:30 a.m. on April 30. I was
in turn referred from Mr. Weber's office to Mr. J. N. Peet, who is the
Deputy Assistant Secretary for Manpower. He was in conference
at the time and I spoke with his secretary.
I explained the matter and the urgency, and the urgency was this:
We were faced with a May 9 deadline; that the contract as it may
have been explained this morning-I am not sure if you went into
these details this morning because of the nature of Mr. Grantham's
testimony. I understand it was to contrast the operation of the Job
Corps. But in any case I think it would serve a useful purpose if I
reviewed the conditions under which this Job Center was operated.
Right after the civil disturbance there was great concern in the
community to provide some creative outlet for the hard-core unem-
ployed in this community a real opportunity for these people to be
made a meaningful part of our life and for them to be able to partici-
pate in a meaningful way in it.
The Board of Tra.de came up with a fairly good proposal, and ap-
proached the Labor Department with it. As a consequence, they were
awarded a contract by the Department of Labor to operate this Job
Center on the site of the old National Training School for Boys.
PAGENO="0705"
2137
Shortly thereafter, Northern Systems became the subcontractor of
this program and shortly after that the overseeing of this program
was delegated to the District of Columbia Manpower Commission.
The contract was for 2 years. The first year of which was to be the
training year and the second year to be the followup and review of the
first year's training program and that it would be to account for how
many dropouts there were and what the success of the program was,
et cetera.
We are speaking with the termination of the first-year program
which comes to an official end as of May 9, and would be phased out.
It is in process of being phased out now.
This would be and is a tragic loss to the community. What this
means is that the hard-core unemployed are no longer coming into the
training pipeline. They are staying out on the street unemployed and
faced with the hopelessness of their position.
The employees of the Job Center who do the training are in the
process of being given their 2 weeks notice of termination of employ-
ment. If this continues, what Northern Systems is faced with is if a
new program is in effect approved, they will have to reassemble a new
staff and encounter all over again the startup costs and problems just
as though they were starting a new program.
Once again I want to reiterate this would be a tragic loss to our
community.
It was in the face of this kind of emergency with respect to time that
we proposed to see what we could do as sort of a friend of the court
to save this program, because it had been demonstrated to us how
worthwhile it really and truly was.
So we got as far, to go back to relating the sequence of events, as
Mr. Peet's office. I managed to call this office and there were no re-
turns of calls. The people concerned, the gentleman concerned who had
the authority to act in this matter was in conference, I was told, but
he would be out of conference at noon. Noon came and there was no
return of a call, so I called back. I was told he was still in conference
and that his administrative assistant was also in conference, and these
people could not be reached but the conference they were in was
scheduled to end at 3 o'clock, and they would call back, but they did
not call back.
At 4:30 I called and was informed that Mr. Peet and his secretary
were not available because Mr. Peet was giving dictation to his sec-
retary and they could not be disturbed. I repeated the urgency of the
matter and asked that they please interrupt and tell them that I was
on the line with an attempt to get through to them on this matter, and
bring our concern to their attention.
The secretary to Mr. Peet got on the phone at this time and told me
that Mr. Peet was now out of town, ha-ha-ha. She was very flippant
about this, and I said, "Well, we are going to have to go elsewhere to
get some kind of a positive response."
I then talked with other members of our prayer breakfast group and
discussed the matter of sending a night telegram to the Manpower
Administrator, and the following telegram was sent to the Manpower
Administrator, Department of Labor, to Mr. J. J. Peet:
The prayer breakfast group, comprising hundreds of concerned citizens of the
metropolitan area, delegated me to arrange a meeting with the Secretary of Labor
and Assistant with policy-level authority with respect to the closing of the Wash-
PAGENO="0706"
2138
ington Job Center. We feel that we are getting a runaround in our attempt to
arrange such a meeting. We do not have the luxury of time at our disposal. We
require immediate, positive response before airing this problem publicly.
This was sent as a night letter. I would like to add at this point that
we prefer to engage in dialog. We wish to avoid confrontation. Our
whole purpose was to be of assistance and explore what we could do to
assist them in saving this program.
I waited until I felt reasonably sure the next day that they had read
the mail and the telegram. So when I called at 10:20 a.m., I managed
to speak to a secretary, but was informed that Mr. Peet was on the
west coast and would not be back until Monday, which would have
left only 4 calendar days to act in this matter. I was promised a return
of call so that the administrative assistant who was in conference
would be able to get in touch with me. The call was not returned. I
called again at 11, and the administrative assistant to Mr. Peet was
still not available. I was told he was in conference on the matter of the
Job Corps until 3, but he would call back, but he didn't. I called again
at 4:40 and finally was able to get through to him and he said that he
had no knowledge of this contract, that this was one of 8,000-odd
contracts, that he would ask somebody for information about it and
that he would be glad to meet with us, but as politely as I could I
indicated to him that we were interested in meeting with someone
who was in a position to act. We ascertained that he could not act, that
he could not even schedule a meeting for us with Mr. Peet without
first consulting with Mr. Peet. So he was really the wrong person for
us at this stage of the game to meet with.
I told him it was not out of any reluctance on our part to meet with
him or anyone else on the staff; that the normal procedures were not
available to us because of this time pressure. So the matter just hung
there.
We then contacted the District of Columbia Manpower Administra-
tor who was overseeing this contract, Mr. Horace Holmes. We wanted
to get his side of the story and the information from him. We got
fairly clear information from him on the status of this contract. He
informed us that, in his opinion, after some initial problems with the
startup problems with the operation of the job center, that it was doing
a very fine job, but that they had not heard anything from Northern
Systems with respect to extending the program another year, or with
any new proposal; that, therefore, if this does expire, which it may very
well, it was simply because no effort had been made to contact them
with a new proposal. I was flabbergasted by this because the people
in Northern Systems seemed very concerned about the termination
of this program. So I contacted Mr. Grantham of Northern Systems
and he informed me that a new proposal had been completed and had
been submitted to the Metropolitan Board of Trade on April 11. I then
contacted Mr. Press, a vice president of the board of trade, to fine
out what was holding things up, because the new proposal had been
submitted to them fully 4 weeks before the contract was to expire.
He said,' well, they had problems that had to be worked out and they
had resubmitted it for modification to Northern Systems and had
gotten it back, but now it was in shape and it was due to be submitted
the following day to the District of Columbia Manpower Commission's
office, Mr. Holmes' office, or a Mrs. Synder, his assistant.
PAGENO="0707"
2139
This was about the last that I was able to accomplish before the
weekend intervened.
On May 5, at 10:10, I again called Mr. Peet's office at the Labor
Department and he was back from Oregon but was not in, and his
administrative assistant was in conference and his secretary, and I
was told to call back in a little over an hour, which I did.
At 12:40, everybody was out to lunch. There was nobody in the
office who could make an appointment for me or say when they would
be back or say when they could be spoken to. Five minutes later I
called Mr. Weber's office and gave them a running account, or blow-
by-blow account as to the difficulties we had in establishing meaningful
communications. At 5 minutes after 3 I called Mr. Peet's office again
and finally was able to speak with Mr. Williams, but got nowhere with
respect to being able to set up an appointment with Mr. Peet. So I
called Mr. Weber's office again at 3:25 and explained the situation to
his secretary, Mrs. Lee. She promised she would call back and I
happened to be in the Office of Community Development down at the
District Building and lo and behold at 4 o'clock I got a return call.
I would like to note this is the first time anybody returned a call.
She said that she would speak with Mr. Williams and arrange that
we could possibly have a meeting, and at 4:35 Mr. Williams did call
me in this same office and set up an appointment for the following day
at 12:30, not with Mr. Peet, but with himself and Mr. Horace Holmes
of District of Columbia Manpower.
A group of us, Mrs. Clesta Jones, Mrs. Bertha Martin, Miss Caesar
Meehan, Miss Jane Lashell, Miss Sally McConnell, Mr. Everett
Hackney, Mr. Ivory Simmonds, Mr. Dick Brown, Mr. Vernon
Hawkins, Mr. James Hailey, and Mr. Mosby and myself met in the
office of Mr. Williams. We were not able to have meaningful dialog
because we were able to get at the facts that were related. We simply
reiterated these positions and our concern and asked if there was a
possibility of extending this contract on a month-to-month basis until
the new proposal could he submitted and considered and acted upon.
They managed to sort of hide behind verbiage and the difficulties they
have with doing things with these kinds of contracts. So, in essence,
we really got nowhere. We were not really speaking to the people who
could deal in a meaningfni way on this in an administrative capacity.
This was really our interest, to get through to people who had the
authority to act in an administrative capacity to solve the problem on
an interim basis pending a longer range solution.
This morning at the prayer breakfast I related the facts, and Mr.
Holmes was not there. Mr. Press was there briefly, but had to leave,
and Mr. Walsh, another vice president of the board of trade, was
there. We are still faced with this phasing out of the program. It is
still up in the air. The people that the board of trade said, "Yes, they
will be getting the program to the Labor Department in a matter of
days." But, gentlemen, Friday is the final day. It phases out. People
will get their 2 weeks' notice of termination of employment.
So, to all intents and purposes, one of the most effective job training
programs in the country will in effect phase out. It was not my purpose
to assess responsibility or to say why this has happened beyond saying
that it is a combination of unfortunate circumstances. But be that as it
may, surely, somewhere, somehow, someone is in a position to act on
this matter and act forthwith. If now, what are we all about?
PAGENO="0708"
2140
Mr. HATHAWAY (presiding). Thank you, Mr. Stickney.
Mr. STICKNEY. I would like Mr. Hackney to speak to that other
aspect of this, the lives of the people involved, what the real agency is,
and the stake our community and country has in this.
Mr. HATHAWAY. State your name, please.
Mr. HACKNEY. My name is Everett Hackney.
Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I ca.n speak from the
angle of the street. We had a committee formed out of the prayer
breakfast and another committee was formed as a satellite to tie into
this. This is directors of the satellite offices of UPO, Bonabon, efforts
for ex-convicts and other areas who work as a feeder for the Northern
Systems Job Center.
These people work constantly every day, like myself, with the hard
core in the street. We are aware of the problem. They are our friends
and we know and understand the need for the program.
However, for the life of me I cannot see how a Government agency
can even conceive the thought of phasing out a program that was
started on a trial basis for 1 year of training a.nd placement, employ-
ment and another year for followup and to prove the necessity of it,
they have graduated 1,187 students from the Job Center, and they
have placed 778. The line between the 778 and the 1,148 is where
people have gone in the service, they are ill, they are dropouts, you
might have a few who went back to prison, but 50 percent of these
people are ex-convicts and ex-addicts. A lot of them have no more than
a sixth grade education. Some of these people are now employed as
meat cutters at $4.65 an hour, have been there since January and are
doing well.
Now, for a program that is on a trial basis, how can they conceive
the thought of even stopping it when we have so many people in our
Nation's Capital now, and to cut this program out you will take the
screwdriver or the pair of pliers out of their hand and you will put the
knife or the gun back in there.
These people here are not playing games and nobody intends to
pamper them, but the lack of opportunity might be the sole reason as
to why they haven't accomplished anything more with their life than
what they have.
The people who are backing us like I said are all of the hard core or
poverty program groups and people who deal directly with the ex-
convict and I am not putting the emphasis on that, but this is a proven
fact, that they in turn are stopping a lot of ex-convicts from continuing
to be so, and also the potentiality of other youth becoming an ex-
convict. This is the serious part.
For the rate that we have out in our schools today for dropouts,
surely you can see this. By no means would it hurt for them to continue
possibly another year or for the followup program which is for a year.
Take the money that is already allocated to them for followup and
put it through training and then when they work the kinks out,
then do the followup, but don't cut off the intake.
It took Northern Systems a month to come here from Nebraska
and prove to the hard core that it is an ongoing program, they can
profit. Northern Systems does have a job pooi. When you are signed
up with Northern Systems you are on someone else's payroll at the
minimum wage of $1.65 and Northern Systems adds 7 cents for paper-
Work which pays them $1.77 an hour. Upon completion of the course
PAGENO="0709"
2141
you immediately go to your place of employment where the employer
has been paying your salary. This is a proven thing. It does work and
why the hangup is with the board of trade, I don't know.
But we had a meeting like Mr. Stickney said, with Mr. Horace
Holmes, and he asked us, "What do they want? Meaning the board
of trade, and Northern Systems. They want continuation of the
program, but where is the proposal? They have not submitted it and
also like Mr. Stickney said, it was submitted the 11th of April, and it
has gotten no further than the board of trade.
Now, if there is a proposal that can be accepted for 2 years a year
ago, then what is the hangup now for the same thing to go on when it
was a trial basis?
Now it is a meaningful thing, it is a proven thing. Where is the
hangup for funding it now when you have taken so many people out
of the street? They made a statement this morning if they have the
people for intake to service. They have more people ready to come in,
a waiting list more than what they have in there now. I cannot
understand why they would even consider stopping it.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Thank you very much.
What is the nature of your organization, Mr. Stickney?
Mr. STICKN~Y. It is unstructured. I can give you a brief history of
it. A person who had been connected with the International Christian
Leadership movement which operated prayer breakfast groups around
the country starting back in the 1930's was deeply concerned at the
time of the civil disturbance about the racial polarization in our com-
munity, so on his own he started a small prayer breakfast group that
started up with 10 or 12 people at Fellowship House. It was equally
divided between white and black at that time, and it was by invitation
at that point.
It grew fairly rapidly, and I started attending this past summer,
late in July or early August, and by this time it is meeting in a res-
taurant in town and I guess an average of 45' to 70 people were in
attendance and it kept growing and we had to move to another loca-
tion. I would say offhand we have a maximum of 150, but it is non-
structured as the man who functions as chairman of the group as
Hon. John Steiger refers to it, we are a group who is white and black,
Christian, Jew, free thinkers, rich, poor, across the spectrum of
society, who get together and in between our opening and closing
prayers we have engaged in free wheeling dialog about our concerns,
about the problems that confront us as a city and as a national society.
We have talked about problems over the spectrum of our concerns,
not only problems of delinquency but employment, sometimes it is a
specific problem and sometimes it is a general one.
We have guests. Congressman Quie and Congressman Dellenback
have attended our prayer breakfasts on occasion and at this time we
would like to extend invitations to all of the members of the com-
mittee. We meet Wednesday mornings at 8.
Mr. HATHAWAY. You are not financed to any extent except to pay
for the breakfast?
Mr. STICKNEY. That is correct. We are nonstructured, nonpartisan.
The political liaison committee, which was recently formed, was
really for the purpose of coming here and maintaining contact here
to find out when hearings that we would be interested in attending as
spectators would take place so that we could do our homework.
PAGENO="0710"
2142
This would be with respect to the Senate and House District
Committees such as this which consider legislation in which we have
an interest. We did not expect to be testifying in this matter but it
was sort of an emergency that confronted us.
As I say, we are loosely structured. Some of the people who attend
are a part of what is called District of Columbia Leadership Committee
but by no means is this all of us.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Thank you very much, Mr. Stickney. We certainly
appreciate your interest in this matter and also you, Mr. Hackney.
Mr. Hackney, could you tell me what notice, if any, the enrollees
received at the job center as to what they are to do now after the
closing on Friday?
Mr. HACKNEY. It appears from what they tell us it makes no
difference what they do, but come the 9th they will be terminated.
Mr. HATHAWAY~ Do the trainees get any official notice?
Mr. STICKNEY. Those in the training cycle already enrolled wifi
continue through the life of that cycle, which in some cases is 12 a.nd
in other cases 16 weeks. But no new people will be entered on the rolls.
As the training cycle completes, the intake of trainees has been reduced
from 100 a week to 16 a week, and already some of the training per-
sonnel, the instructors have been released. Additional ones will get
their notice on the 19th.
Mr. HATHAWAY. The trainees in training now will be allowed to
complete the course?
Mr. STICKNEY. That is correct.
Mr. HACKNEY. It is explained the intake is stopped but if you don't
take any in, the program is stopped.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Mr. Steiger.
Mr. STErnER. From what you have said, Mr. Stickney, am I correct
that the original contract for the job center was a 2-year contract,
one-half of which was training and one-half of which was followup.
So, you are here on the basis that the center has been extremely
successful in training young men and women in the Washington area
for jobs?
Mr. HACKNEY. One other point I would like to bring up, sir, not
just in the Washington area. The people in Rockville got together for
lack of training and they purchased a bus and daily they have tripped
from Rockville to the center and trained them and take them back.
Mr. STEIGER. So the facility is serving a very real need in the
community.
Mr. HACKNEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. STEIGER. You have taken it upon yourselves to come here to
plead on behalf of renewing the training portion of the Northern
Systems contract, is that correct?
Mr. STICKNEY. That is correct.
Mr. STEIGER. What about the second half of the contract that was
originally entered into?
Mr. STICKNEY. That is still funded.
Mr. STEIGER. That continues?
Mr. STICKNEY. That continues.
Mr. STEIGER. Your concern only is that there is a danger there in
losing what you consider to be a very valuable asset to the needs of
this community?
PAGENO="0711"
2143
Mr. STICKNEY. Absolutely. The thing is we are replacing that asset
with a liability of the 100 a week who would have been taken into the
training program; they are staying out in the street unemployed and
confronting a state of hopelessness.
I might add this is a kind of symbolic installation because the
Washington National Training School for Boys was really a prep-
school for the District of Columbia jail and the Lorton Reformatory
and penitentiary systems. It was replaced with an organization that
was taking people from Lorton and the District of Columbia jails and
giving them a sense of hope and helping them belong to the com-
munity and giving them a chance to become really positive, useful
members of society.
Mr. STEIGER. First of all, I want to say to both of you that if there
is anything I can do, I will, to help urge the Department to fund a
program which will enable the training portion to continue. I was
very impressed with Mr. Grantham's testimony this morning.
It is interesting. As you know, we have had a few differences of
opinion about whether or not this kind of training facility is really
helpful, whether it serves the needs of the young people who are
disadvantaged who do need the facilities, and I certainly commend
both of you for your interest in and support for this kind of facility
in the Washington, D.C., area. I think you have served a useful
purpose in coming here and indicating your support for this, and in
making your plea.
I think it will fall on the ears of this committee and will perk us up
to do what we can to help you in doing what you are trying to do.
Thank you for coming in.
Mr. HATHAWAY. Thank you very much, gentlemen.
Mr. STICKNEY. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. HATHAWAY. The committee will adjourn until 9:30 tomorrow
morning at which time we wifi hear Labor Secretary Shultz.
(Whereupon, at 2:45 p.m., the committee was recessed, to be
reconvened at 9:30 am., Thursday, May 8, 1969.)
PAGENO="0712"
PAGENO="0713"
(Appendix to Hearing on H.R. 513, April 17, 1969)
A SURVEY OF EX-JOB CORPSMEN
(Conducted by Louis HARRIS AND ASSOCIATES)
COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and Labor
CARL D. PERKINS, Chairman
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
27-754 0 WASHINGTON 1969
L4.~:4 3'/j
c~ 1/~~q/app
PAGENO="0714"
COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR
CARLD. PERKINS. Kentucky. Chairman
EDITH GREEN, Oregon
FRANK THOMPSON, JR., New Jersey
JOHN H. DENT, Pennsylvania
ROMAN C. PUCINSKI, Illinois
I)OMINICK V. DANIELS, New Jersey
JOHN BRADEMAS, Indiana
JAMES G. O'HARA, Michigan
HUGII L. CAREY, New York
AUGUSTUS F. HAWKINS, California
WILLIAM D. FORD, Michigan
WILLIAM D. HATHAWAY, Maine
PATSY T. MINK, Hawaii
JAMES H. SCHEUER, New York
LLOYD MEEDS, Washington
PHILLIP BURTON, California
JOSEPH M. GAYDOS, Pennsylvania
LOUIS STOKES, Ohio
WILLIAM (BILL) CLAY, Missouri
ADAM C. POWELL. New York
WILLIAM H. AYRES, Ohio
ALBERT H. QUIE, Minnesota
JOHN M. ASHBROOK, Ohio
ALPHONZO BELL, California
OGDEN R. REID, New York
JOHN N. ERLENBORN, Illinois
WILLIAM J. SCHERLE, Iowa.
JOHN R. DELLENBACK, Oregon
MARVIN L. ESCH, Michigan
EDWIN D. ESHLEMAN, Pennsylvania
WILLIAM A. STEIGER, Wisconsin
JAMES M. COLLINS, Texas
EARL F. LANDGREBE, Indiana
ORVAL HANSEN, Idaho
EARL B. RUTH, North Carolina
AD Hoc HEARING TASK FORCE ON POVERTY
CARL D. PERKINS, Kentucky, Chairman
WILLIAM H. AYRES, Ohio
ALBERT H. QUIE, Minnesota
JOHN M. ASHBROOK, Ohio
OGDEN R. REID, New York
JOHN N. ERLENBORN, Illinois
WILLIAM J. SCHERLE, Iowa
(Mr. HATHAWAY, Mrs. MINK, and
Mr. CLAY, alternate members)
(Mr. ESCH and Mr. STEIGER,
alternate members)
EDITH GREEN, Oregon
FRANK THOMPSON, JR., New Jersey
JOHN H. DENT, Pennsylvania
ROMAN C. PUCINSKI. Illinois
DOMINICK V. DANIELS, New Jersey
JOHN BRADEMAS, Indiana
(II)
PAGENO="0715"
T~JO GROUPS OF CORPSMEN WERE INTERVIEWED DURING THE
* FIRST THREE MONTHS OF 1969~:
* 1) CORPSMEN WHO TERMINATED APPROXIMATELY 6-8 MONTHS AGO,
SAMPLE SIZE - 4309 FULL INTERVIEWS.
2) CORPSMEN WHO TERMINATED APPROXIMATELY 12-15 MONTHS AGO,
SAMPLE SIZE - 5154 FULL INTERVIEWS.
(1)
PAGENO="0716"
2
CURRENT AGE OP CORPSMEN
- 6 months 12 months
Conser- Conser-
Total Urban vation Women Total Urban vation Women
7~ % % 7~ ~h 7~
16 4 3 6 2 * 1 1 *
17 23 21 31 18 10 11 13 5
18 24 27 24 20 25 26 27 17
19 19 21 16 19 24 24 24 24
20 14 14 11 20 17 16 15 22
21 9 9 7 13 13 11 11 16
22 5 4 4 6 7 7 6 10
23 2 1 1 2 3 3 2 5
Over23 * * * * 1 1 1 1
Average age 18.7 19.5 18.3 19.1 19.3 19.2 19.1 19.8
* Less than half of .57~ (applies to all asterisked figures in this survey).
PAGENO="0717"
3
ETHNIC GROUPS
-6 Months-
- Type of Center -Category--
Total Urban Conservation Women I II III
7~ 7~ y~ %
Negro 63 63 62 65 70 64 57
White 26 29 28 22 19 23 33
Puerto Rican 2 2 1 2 1 3 2
Mexican-Spanish 8 6 8 10 9 9 7
Indian 1 * 1 1 1 1 1
Oriental k * * * * * *
12 Months-~'~--~'-'-~
-Type of Center -Category---
Total Urban Conservation Women I II III
~h 7~ %
Negro 57 52 60 60 62 60 50
White 30 35 28 26 24 26 38
Puerto Rican 2 2 1 1 2 2 1
Mexican-Spanish 10 10 10 11 11 10 10
Indian 1 1 1 2 1 2 1
Oriental * * * * * *
PAGENO="0718"
EDUCATION AUD READING LEVEJ~ AT ENTRY INTO
JOB CORPS (a)
6 Months
Conser- Under 20 and
Total Urban vation Women I II III Black White 18 18-19 over
N 7. N N N N N N N N 7. N
Finished high school 15 12 7 28 26 10 9 17 9 3 10 32
Did not finish high
school
6th grade or less
7th grade
8th grade
9th grade
10th grade
11th grade
Average grades
completed
Average reading
levels in grades
_______________________ 12 Months _________________________________
Conser- Under 20 and
Total Urban vation Women I II III Black White 18 18-19 over
N N N N N N N N N N N N
8 28 21 12 11 18 11 2 7 27
85 88 92 72 79 88 89 82 89 98 93 73
4 2 8 2 355 3 5 6 4 4
6 6 9 3 6 6 7 5 9 12 6 5
14 14 16 10 13 14 14 11 19 24 14 10
22 25 23 17 20 24 23 20 25 30 26 16
24 26 23 23 23 24 25 25 21 18 28 21
15 15 13 17 14 15 15 18 10 8 15 17
9.6 9.6 9.1 10.1 9.8 9.4 9.4 9.8 9.2 8.7 9.4 10.0
5.4 6.8 3.6 5.9 5.4 5.2 5.6 5.1 6.2 NA NA NA
(a) Entrance grades completed from Marris survey.
Entrance reading level from Job Corps record.
not available.
4
85 88 93 72 74 90 91 83 91 97 90 68
3 2 6 2 344 3 3 3 3 3
7 6 9 4 5 7 7 6 10 9 7 4
14 14 18 10 12 15 16 12 19 21 14 9
23 23 26 20 19 24 27 21 27 34 23 13
23 26 22 21 20 25 23 24 22 23 27 18
15 17 12 15 15 15 14 17 10 7 16 21
9.6 9.6 9.1 10.1 9.9 9.4 9.3 9.7 9.2 8.9 9.5 10.3
5.3 6.6 3.5 6.0 5.4 5.0 5.3 5.0 6.0 NA NA NA
Finished high school 15 12
Did not finish high
school
6th grade or less
7th grade
8th grade
9th grade
10th grade
11th grade
Average grades
completed
Average reading
level in grades
PAGENO="0719"
SIX-MONTH CURRENT STATUS
STATUS OF Till ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 6 MONTHS
- Current Status~(6 Months After)_
Other
Posi- Chants in:
Before Job Corps - -, tive Unera- Hour
Unem- Hourly Working Working School Mili- Place- Unem- Hourl ploy- iy
~p~jn School Qp~g~ ~ _j~gg~ Only & School ~y... g~ p~~_ 9~g~ ..2M~ J~&&i ~aL
7* 7* 7* 7. $. 7* 7* 7. 7. 7. 7* 7* $ 7. $
TOTAL ~. 1Z.. 3 47 1.41 36 5 II 6 14 2 26 2t 38
Men's Urban Centers 33 7 3 47 .53 40 5 2 12 5 I 25 1.86 -22 .33
Men' s Conservation
Centers 35 18 3 44 .44 40 5 0 5 6 2 32 1.85 12 .41
Women's Centers 27 16 4 53 .24 27 5 9 2 33 3 21 1.55 -32 .31
(I) "Before Job Corps" is defined as the time the individual "signed up for the Job Corps".
(2'~ "Current Status" includes:
I. Working -- (a) regular employment, (b) apprentice program, (c) on-job training, (d) other.
2. Working and school -- All those attending regular schools or other training programs and are working
part time to support themselves.
3. School (or advanced training program) -- All those attending school and not working.
4. Military. ~
5. Other positive -- (includes those accepted and waiting to enter armed forces or school and females not
working or otherwise placed due to marriage or fulfilling full time family responsibility).
6. Other -- Ill, confined for one reason or another and unable to work, re-entering or re-entered Job Corps and
other status precluding the possibility of placement.
7. Unemployed -- Includes all youths not in above classification. These youths include both those:
(a) looking for work, (b) not looking for work.
PAGENO="0720"
Other -
Posi- Chence in:
tive Une~a- Hour*
Working Working School Miii- Place- Unem- Noun ploy- ly
_On~y_ 5hoo~ Q~]y_ y gg~~_ 9~ 1?j~~~ ~ ~t 3j~e
7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. $ 7., $
36 5 Il 6 14 2 26 1.79 -21 38
45 5 7 ~ 13 I 20 1.87 -25 .48
35 5 0 5 15 3 27 .77 -20 .39
30 5 14 4 4 2 31 1.69 -20 .23
STATUS OF THE ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 6 MONThS
Current Status~2~( 6 Months After~
Before .Teh (ore. I1\
TOTAL
Category I
Category II
Category III
Uncin- Hourly
~k~g ~
7, 7, 7. 7. $~
33 7 .3 47 1.41
34 7 4 45 1.39
32 9 2 47 1.38
30 16 3 51 1.46
PAGENO="0721"
Unem- Hourly
Working School Other ~jç~g~ ~j~ggg
7. N 7. 7. $.
33 17 3 47 1.41
33 18 2 47 .42
31 5 5 49 .38
29 9 3 49 .47
Ch~n~n:
Unem- Hour
ploy- ly
rent 3~e
7., $
-21 38
-21 .37
-22 .39
-23 .34
STATUS OF THE ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 6 MONTHS
Current Status~2~ (6 Months After).
Before Job corpJ1~
0
0
TOTAL
Black
White
Other
Other
Posi-
tive
Working Working School Mill- Place- Unem- Hourly
Only & School Q~y~ ~ ~ggg Other pjp~g~ j~g~
7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. $
36 5 II 6 14 2 26 1.79
36 `5 10 6 15 2 26 1.79
38 6 10 6 II 2 27 1.77
33 5 11 6 18 I 26 1.81
PAGENO="0722"
TOTAL
Under 18
18 - 19
20+
Other
Posi-
tive
Working Working School Miii- Place- Unem- Houri:
Onij~ &Schoo1~ Only_ j~g~ Q~ fl~y~çl~ j~g~
7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. $
36 5 II 6 4 2 26 .79
24 6 7 4 4 2 33 .57
38 5 0 6 5 2 24 1.81
44 5 5 7 5 2 22 .88
Cha~n:
Unern- Hour
ploy- ly
7.. $
-21 38
-13 .16
-24 .40
-27 .46
STATUS OF THE ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 6 MONTHS
Cn-,cnt~ c t-ti(2)t' 6 Man t~hs Aft~er~
Pafara .Tnh
Unein- Hourly
Q~J~ 21REQ~. J~RE9.
7. 7. 7. 7. $~
33 17 3 47 1.41
27 23 4 46 1.41
31 19 2 .48 1.41
39 9 3 49 1.42
PAGENO="0723"
STATUS OF TRE ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 6 MONTHS
-__Curr°°~ ~1.I~(2)(6 Months After~
~ jz...~ ~ ~
Under 18 22 28 6 44 .23 33 5
18 - 19 33 23 2 42 I .37 44 5
20+ 39 0 5 46 .4 48 5
__ 32 ~ 2 471.38 355
Under 18 20 28 3 49 .33 2l 8
18 - 19 31 21 3 45 1.39 36 4
20+ 42 9 I 48 .38 44 5
Before Job Corns
Unem- Hourly
~orki~g ~L~Q1 P.~T P.1RES~ ~
7. 7. 7. 7. $
Other
Posi-
tive
Working Working School Miii- Place- Unem- Hourl
Qnly_ & School _9~y_ ~y_ ~
7.- 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. $
Change in:
Unen- Hour-
ploy- ly
~gfl_~_. ~&S_
7.. $
-25 .48
-II .40
-22 .49
-29 .51
7 9 13 I 201.87
7 3 8 I 33 1.65
7 9 14 I 20 1.86
4 U 14 I 17 1.94
çg~ory III
Under 18
18 - 19
20+
-~ ~ .!~ 3 27 1.77 -p.2 -.~2
30 6 3 51 I.46
30 20 4 46 1.46
29 15 2 54 1.47
35 7 S3 55 1.43
* 30 5
23 6
33 . 5
36 4
13 5 7 3 33 1.55
10 5 7 3. 25 1.78
5 5 14 2 25 1.87
//
14 4 I4 2 31 1.69
18 4 I4 .2 33 1.55
4 4 I4 3 27 .79
8 3 17 2 30 .75
_I6 .22
-20 . 39
-23 .49
-20 .23
-I3 .09
-27 .32
-25 .32
PAGENO="0724"
STATUS OF THE ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 6 MONTHS
Current StatuJ2~( 6 gonths Aftar~
1~efnrc~ .Tn1~ ~ (I)
Unem- Hourly
~orJ~i~ig School Q~ j~1o~pd j~g~
7. 7. % 7. $
Other
Posi-
tive
Working Working School Miii- Place- Unem- burl:
Only ~5~oo1 ~O~ily_ ~y ~ Qj~p~ j~yed ~i&o
7. 7. % 7. 7. 7. 7. $
Unem- Hour
ploy- ly
LLLi.~ W~
7.. $
27 23
22 28
20 28
30 20
31 9
33 23
31 21
29 5
Under 18
Category *I
Category II
Category III
18 - 19
Category I
Category II
Category III
20+
Category I
Category II
Category III
4 46 1.41
6 .44 1.25
3 49 .33
4. 46 1.46
2 48 1.41
2 42 .37
3 45 .39
2 54 1.47
24
6
17
4
14
2
33
1.57
-13
.16
33
5
17
3
8
I
33
1.65
-II
.40
.
21
8
13
5
17
3
33
1.55
-16
.22
23
6
18
4
1.4
2
33
1.55
-13
.09
38
5
10
6
5
2
24
1.81
-24
.40
44
36
33
5
4
5
7
10
14
9
5
4
14
17
14
I
3
3
20
25
27
1.86 -22
1.78 20
I .79 - 27
.49
39
.32
.
44
5
5
7
15
2
22
1.88 -27
.46
48
5
4
II
14
1
17
1.94
-29
.51
44
5
5
5
14
2
25
L87
-23
.49
36
4
8
3
17
2
30
1.75
- 25
.32
39 9 3 49 .42
~ 10 5 46 1.42
42 9 I 48 1.38
35 ~ 55 .43
PAGENO="0725"
11
EFFECTS OF AGING - 6 MONTHS
TOTAL
Before Job Corps
(age at entry)
Now
(Current
Propor-
tion
Un-
employ
age)
Hour-
ly
Rate
Propor-
tion
Un-
employed
Hour-
ly
Rate
%
%
%
%
16
43
1.41
37
17
45
1.41
34
1.58
18
45
1.38
26
1.77
19
51
1.46
25
1.86
20
51
1.49
24
1.86
21
51
1.38
25
1.93
22+
39
1.37 y
19
1.87
Small base (applies to all "y's" throughout).
PAGENO="0726"
12
EFFECTS OF AGING - 6 MONTHS
MEN
16
17
18
19
20
21
22+
16
17
18
19
20
21
22+
Before Job Corps
(age before)
Propor-
tion Hour-
Un- ly
employ ~
%
47 1.58
50
37 1.40Y
WOMEN
Before Job Corps
(a~ge before)
Propor-
tion
Un-
ernp]pyed _____
Hourly
Rate
$
49 l.19y
50 1.20
47 1.22
58 1.20
56 l.33y
51 l.3ly
39 l.32y
Now
(Current age)
Propor-
tion Hour-
Un- ly
employ ~
Hourly
Rate
$
17 X
24 l.3ly
20 1.43
21 1.60
24 1.61
20 1.66
18 l.63y
42 1.44 41 1.53y
43 1.45 36 1.62
44 1.46 28 1.85
45 1.58 27 1.93
24
28
20
1.98
2.08
1.98
Now
(current~ge)
Propor-
tion
U~i-
employed
x
Insufficient data (applies
to all ~`x~5" throughout).
PAGENO="0727"
13
EFFECTS OF AGING - 6 MONTHS
BLACK
Before Job Corps
Propor -
tion
Un-
70
47
43
42
49
50
49
39
Hourly
Rate
$
1 * 43
1.41
1.39
1.48
1.45
1. 38y
1,32y
WHITE
Now
Propor
tion
Un-
~ployed _____
70
44
35
26
24
2'4
25
20
Before Job Corps
Propor
tion
Un-
ernp1o~y~ _____
70
Hourly
Rate
$
Hourly
Rate
$
Hourly
j~ate
$
1.48y
1.56
1.74
1.84
1.88
1.91
1091
Now
~ent~e)
Propor-
tion
Un-
70
39
l.34y
27
48
1.38
34
1.58
50
1.35
23
1.85
58
1.30y
28
1.91
51
1.55~Y
26
1.76
47
1.40~Y
24
2.Oly
27y
1.38Y
23
l.77y
PAGENO="0728"
STATUS OF THE ENROLLEE BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 6 MONTHS
Black
White
Black
Thi to
34 17 4 45 `1.3
34 7 3 46 1.41
34 18 7 41 1.3
32 * 19 .2 47 1.38
33 20 2 45 .3:
30 16 3 51 1.33
n,~eut s,.,,.,,12)16 w-~,,-i,., Af,-~-~
Before Job Cores (I)
Unem- Hourly
Worki~g School fl~gr ~gy~ J~gg
7* 7. 7. 7. $,
Other
Posi-
tive
Working Working School Nih- Place- Unom- Hourl:
_Onl~y & School _Qg]y~ ~~y_ ~.ag._ Q~g~ ~i2Y.S.~ ~LLB.
7. 7. 7. 7. 7. $
~ .7 9 ~ 201.87
45 5 6 9 14 2 191.87
47 6 6 9 10 I .21 1.87
35 5 10 5 15 3 271.77
35 5 10 4 16 3 27 1.78
35 6 8 6 16, 2 27 1.74
Change in:
Unem- Nour~
ploy- ly
aent Wace
7., $
-25 .48
-27 .46
-20 ,53
categorym 30 ~ 3 ~ L46 30 5
Black 31 7 ~ 50 1.47 27 4
White 30 13 4 53 1.421 35 6
(fl "Before Job Corps" is defined as the time the individual "signed up
(2~ "Current Status" includes:
-20
-18
-24
.39
.41
.41
I.
14 4 " 14 2 ` 3! .1.69
5 3 16 `3 32 1.69
3 5 0 2 29 1.71
for the Job Corps".
-20 .23
-.18 .22
-24 .29
1. Working -- (a~ regular employment, (b) apprentice program, (c) on-Job training, (d) other.
2. Uorking and school -- All those attending regular schools or other training programs and are working
part time to support themselves.
3. School (or advanced training,,program~ -- All those attending school and not working.
4. Nilit~.
5. Other PPl.~~j!4 -- (includes those accepted and waiting to enter armed forces or school and females not
working or otherwise placed due to marriage or fulfilling full time family responsibility).
6. Other -- Ill, confined for one reason or another and unable to work, re-entering or re-entered Job Corps a~d
other status precluding the possibility of placement.
7. tJpg~gplo,yed -- Includes all youths not in above classification. These youths include both those:
(a~ looking for work, (bI not looking for work.
PAGENO="0729"
Change in:
lIner- Hour
ploy- l.y
ii $
-22 .33
0
C
STATUS OF THE ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 6 MONTHS
- Current Statos~2~( 6 ~lonIhe Afto,\
Before lob
Other
Posi-
Unem-
Hourly
Working Working
tive
School Miii- Place-
lIner-
Houri
~gj~QQ~
~gg
DJ~L. ~5g~ool
~D1L. ~ rent Other
7
7
7
7
$.
7 7
7 7 7 7
7
~lens Urban Centers
33
7
3
47
.53
40 5
2 2 5
25
.86
Category I
36
9
3
42
.52
45 5
7 6
Category II
31
8
3
48
.52
34 7
6 I
4 2 5 2
20
26
1.97
1.78
Category III
32
5
3
50
.55
37 5
5 8 5 I
29
1.78
lens Conservation
centers
35
18
3
44
1.44
.
40 5
0 5 6 2
32
1.85
Category I
37
19
3
41
1.42
53 5
8 9 2
22
.97
Category II
33
20
2
45
.39
43 5
8 5 8 2
29
Category III
36
16
3
45
1.49
30 5
14 4 6 3
38
1.75
~omenV's Centers V
27
16
4 .
53
.24
27 5
9 V 2 33 3
21
.55
Categor~y I
3j
V 4
5
50
.24
38 5
5 3 28 2
19
1.65
Category II
30
19
4
47
1.26
21 . 5
9 I 37
Category III
21
16
4
59
.22
20 5
13 I 37 4
24
20
1.53
.37
-22 .45
-22 .26
-21 .23
-12 .41
-19 .55
.45
-7 .26
-32 .31
-31 .41
-23 .27
-39 .15
PAGENO="0730"
STATUS OF THE ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 6. MONTHS
Current Status~2~6 Months After)
Other
(j~ Pos i-
Before Job Corps / - tive Unen- Hour
Unem- Hourly Working Working School Miii- Place- Unem- Hourly ploy- ly
~ School Other ~ ~gg ~On~ ~J~O~7. ~y_ Par~ ~ ~ fl~JyJcJ ~ ~nt ~o~ii
7. 7. 7. 7. $. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. $ 7.. $
~en's Urban Cente~s 33 17 3 47 .53 40 5 2 2 5 I 25 1.86 22 .33
Black 34 19 2 45 .52 37 5 12 13 6 26 1.86 -19 .34
White 33 12 4 51 .56 43 6 II II 7 *1 21 .85 -30 .29
Men's Conservation
~1ter~_~_ 35 8 3 44 1.44 40 5 0 5 6 2 32 1.85 -12 .41
Black 37 9 2 42 .46 41 4 10 4 8 2 31 1.86 -II .40
White 32 6 5 47 .36 39 7 9 6 4 2 33 .82 -14 .46
~ornen's Centers 27 ~ 4 53 L24 27 -32 .~
Black 27 16 4 53 .24 27 5 9 I 33 4 21 1.58 -32 .34
White / 28 17 5 50 1.16 30 4 9 1 29 2 25 .46 -25 .30
PAGENO="0731"
STATUS OF TNR ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 6 MONTHS
Current Statug~2~6 Months Aftas~
32 20 3 45 1.50
31 19 2 48 1.52
38 II 4 47 1.58
35 8 3 44 .44
29 23 4 44 1.41
34 20 2 44 .45
47 8 2 43 1.48
27 16 4 53 1.24
14 27 6 53 1.23
27 I9~~__~3 51 1.22
33 8 5 54 1.26
40 5 0 5 6
27 7 14 2 II
45 4 tO 5 5
52 4 4 6 5
27 `5 9 2 33
Change in:
Unem- Hour
ploy- ly
~t. ~LL
N. $
-22 .33
-1~2 .08
-24 .37
-29 .4t
2 32 .85 -12 .41
2 37 .62
2 29 1.88
I 28 2.03
Before Job Coros~1~
Unem- - Hourly
~gin School Q~ pj~ ~ggg
N N N N $.,
.33 7 3 47 1.53
Other
Posi-
tive
Working Working School Mili- Place- Unem- Hourl'
Only & School Q~j~ ~ ment Other £1RES.~ .i~&R9.
N N N N N 7. `7. $
~2 ~
28
41
49
Men's Urban Centers
Under 18
18 - 19
20+
Men s Conservation
Centers
Under 18
18 - 19
20+
Woman's Centers
Under 18
18 -. 19
20+
25 1.86
6 7 8 7 I 33 1.58
5 13 II 5 I 24 1.89
6 7 5 4 I 18 1.99
I.
-7 .21
-IS .43
-15 .55
-32 .31
13 6
25 5
36 4
19 0 35
9 I 37
5 I 30
3 21 .55
3 24 1.27 -29 .04
3 20 1.51 -31 .29
3 21 .63 -33 .37
PAGENO="0732"
STATUS OF TIlE ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 6 MONTHS
niivrent Status~2~' 6. Months After)
Northeast
Black
White
Mid-Atlantic
Black
White
Southeast
Black
White
Great Lakes
Black
White
Southwest
Black
White
North Central
Black -
White
Western
Black
White
--
Unem- Hourly
Wo~jn 5G~1P9~1 Q~j~ ~ig~ _W~o_
7. 7. 7. 7. $.
38 12 3 47 .72
38 15 2 45 .75
37 8 4 51 1.70
31 16 2 51 .44
32 8 2 48 1.48
30 8 4 58 1.31
32 .~ 3 2 53 1.31
32 14 I 53 1.29
33 8 5 54 1.41
35 5 4 46 .44
34 6 5 45 1.53
37 15 4 44 1.29
33 21 3 . 43 1.31
~ ~r r~r
33 18 2 47 1.25
28 II 6 55 .30
33 12 .9 46 1.31
26 II 6 57 .25
28 27 4 41 1.54
30 32 2 36 1.72
28 27 6 39 1.43
* -- Other
Posi-
tive
Working Working School Miii- Place- Unem- Houri~
_Q~i1y_ ~S_~2P7. ~Qo~Y_ ~8RY_ BLL~_~ Other ~iRES.~ .Jis~o~
7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. $
38 6 II 5 5 I 24 2.05
34 7 13 5 4 0 27 2.18
43 8 8 5 13. 2 21 1.97
37 5 9 613 228 1.71
36 5 10 5 14 3 27 1.76
38 6 8 7 0 I 30 1.56
~2 .~ 8 5 M 3 26 .59
40 4 9 5 14 2 26 .60
46 5 6 6 10 4 23 1.57
33 6 II 5 14 3 28 2.14
33 6 II 4 17 4 25 2.34
35 5 9 7 " 12 2 30 1.83
38 3 9 7 14 2 27 1.68
~ ~ ~. r~r
46 . 5 6 8 9 0 26 1.68
33 .5 9 8 19 2 24 .72
31 5 5 8 23 2 26 1.76
33 7 8 8 17 I 26 1.66
26 8 18 812 226 2.08
23 9 25 5 tO 3 25 2.18
26 6 18 tO 13 I 26 2.09
Unem- Hour
ploy- ly
BiC~. ~
7., $
-23 .33
-[8 .43
-30 .27
-23 .27
-21 .28
-28 .25
-27 .28
-27 .31
-21 .16
-[8 .70
-20 .81
-14 .54
-16 .37
-14 .40
-21 .43
-31 .42
-20 .46
-31 .41
-IS .54
-II .46
-13 .63
PAGENO="0733"
STATUS OF THE ENROLLEE BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 6 MONTHS
Current StatuJ~ 6. Months After)
Unam- Hourly
Working School Qg~g~ ~
N N N N $
Under 10,000
ponulation 32 8 4 46 .36
36 7 3 44 .39
Black 37 9 I 43 1.40
White 34 3 7 46 I .36
Women 22 9 6 53 .24
Black 22 16 6 56 I.l7y
White - 23 24 9 45 I 34 v
Other
Posi-
tive
Working Working School Nih- Place- Unern- Hourl3
_Qai~... & School Q~j~ ~gg~ rant Other ~
N N N N N N N $
~ J2_
43 4 8 6 4
46 .4 . 9 6 3
39 5 8 6 6
24 5 8 2 35
23 4 8 2 34
36 5
40 6
39 4
:42 9
28 2
27 3
28 2
i~. z ~ ~ ..93 *45
3 9 7 I 27 2.10 -17 .50
4 8 .9 I 26 2.11 -17 .51
3 0 4 2 22 2.19 -22 .66
0 2 30 4 8 .73 -36 .36
2 0 30 5 18 1.71 -32 .34
6 0 30 2 26 I . 80y ~ X
r~~-
10,000-49,999
~
Nan 33
Black 34
White 33
Women 28
Black 26
White 34
2 31 .69
I 34 1.74
I 31 .66
I 35 1.85
3 23 1.47
4 25 1.56
I DI INc
* I7 2 50 1.33
18 2 47 1.40
19 * 47 1.42
5 2 50 1.38
IS 3 54 1.16
17 3 54 1.15
9 2 55 1.05
Chanec in:
Unem- Hour-
ploy- ly
N. $
-15 .33
-10 .35
-12 .26
-II .49
-30 .23
-31 .39
~2L~2_
-24 .35
-20 .35
-17 .39
-26 .26
-29 .29
-30 .35
-30 .38
10 6 15
10 8 7
10 9 6
10 7 6
8 I 34
5 I 38
9 I 33
2 26 .68
2 27 1.75
2 30 .81
2 24 1.64
2 25 1.45
2 24 1.50
2 25 1.43
I.
50,000-250,000
~p~~tio~32
7
3481.40
35
5
2
Zi~
,
Men
Black
33
37
7
18
3
3
47
42
.49
L48
38
39
5
5
12
II
9
8
6
6
2
.3
28
28
1.83
1.84
-19
-14
.34
.36
White
28
14
4
54
1.57
40
,
6
12
10
6
26
1.81
-28
.24
Women
29
17
3
5,
.20
27
5
12
I
33
3
19
1.49
-32
.29
Black
29
17
3
51
.22
27
5
0
I
36
3
18
1.51
-33
.29
White
32
19
. 6
43
I.l6~
29
3
13
0
25
4
26
I.4O~
~I7.24
Over 250,000
~lation 33 17 347 L54 34 6
Yen 35 9 2 44 .60 37 6
Black 35 20 2 43 .60 36 6
White 36 5 5 44 I.53y 40 9
Women 27 14 5 54 .37 29 7
Black 29 16 5 50 .37 28 7
White 20 19 6 55 X 28 . 4
PAGENO="0734"
TWELVE MONTH CURRENT STATUS
STATUS OF THE ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 12 MONTHS
C rre I Status~?fl2 Mpnths Al tar)
Other
(1) Posi- ___________
Before Job Corps _ -- tive m- Hour-
Unem- Hourly Working Working School Mill- Place- Unem- burl ploy- ly
~~iJj~ S~j199! Other J~ORQc1 ~~!~9ilO_ -~ ~1ly~~ ~-aithostl ,SL1i.Y.~ tgJy EiIfll_ P~ PJ2Xci~. J~iuso ~.aL ~ozo.
E L F, $ 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. $ 7, $
TOTAL 32 15330 1.39 41 4 8 1012 223 1.8427 ~5
Ne~'r tT:ban CenLere 12 15 3 50 1.50 42 5 7 18 5 1 22 1.95 28 .45
7~cn's Conservation 14 15 3 `S 1 1 /
Centers + . 1 6 4 8 8 4 2 28 1.85 20 .44
Women's Centers 28 16 5 51 1.21 31 4 9 1 37 2 16 1.57 35 .36
(i~ Before Job Corps" is defined as the time the indIvidual "signed up for the Job Corps".
(21 "Current Status" includes:
1. Working -- (a) regular employment, (b) apprentice program, (c) on-job training, (d) other.
2. Workinggg~cj3~l -- All those attending regular schools or other training programs and are working
part time to support themselves.
3. School (or advancec train~~9g7.~RR0E~ -- All those attending school and not working.
4. Ni1itq~,y.
5. Other positive -- (includes those acceptdd and waiting to enter armed forces or school and females not
working or otherwise placed due' to marriage or fulfilling full time family responsibility).
6. Q!)~97. -- Ill, confined for one reason or another and unable to work, re-entering or re-entered Job Corps a~d
other status precluding the possibility of placement.
7 Uggg~p~yg,~ -- Includes all youths not in abov~ classification. These youths include both those:
(a~ looking for work, (b~ not looking for work.
PAGENO="0735"
Unem- Hourly
W~~ng ~l Q~ P~i9Y~E~ J~RER~
N N N N $.
32 15 3 50 1.39
35 14 4 47 1.38
32 18 4 46 1.35
29 14 3 54 1.45
STATUS OF THE ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 12 MONTHS
Current Status: : (12 Months After~
Before Job Corps (1)
TOTAL
Category I
Category II
Category III
Other
Posi-
tive
Working Working School Nih- Place- Unem- Noun:
0O~L ~Lchool ...Q~jy ~ ment Q~j~g~ ~ iL~gs
N N N N N N N $
41 4 8 10 12 2 23 1.84
46 5 6 14 10 1 18 1.91
39 4 7 9 16 1 24 1.81
37 5 10 8 11 3 26 1.78
Unem- Hour-
ploy- ly
N $
27 .45
29 .53
22 .46
28 .33
PAGENO="0736"
TOTAL
Black
White
Other
Hourly
1.39
1.42
1.37
Unern- Hour-
ploy- ly
%~ $
2L
23 .44
35 .44
27 .45
STATUS OF THE ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 12 MONTHS
Current Status (12 Months After)
Before Job Cores
Unem-
)(~jlin School Other pj~
R % % %
~1Z 11 ~l Jfl
34 17 2 47
28 13 5 54
32 14 5 49
Other
Posi-
tive
Working Working School Miii- Place- Unem- Hourl
Oniy & School Q ~ mont Other ~
7. 7. 7. 7. $
Al IL Il ~Z 23. LIL
41 4 8 9 12 2 24 1.83
38 4 8 11 18 2 19 1.86
39 5 10 8 14 2 22 1.82
PAGENO="0737"
0
a
TOTAL
Under 18
18 - 19
Unem- Hourly
Workiflg ~EhLQi ~ ~io~
7. 7. % 7. $.
32 15 3 50 1.39
22 23 4 51 1.40
28 19 3 50 1.38
.ch~ngg~ ~
Unem- Hour-
ploy- ly
NDa~ ~.
7. $
27 .45
20 .25
26 .44
30 .48
STATUS OF TILE ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 12 MONTHS
Cnrve.-.t- 5i~u.. (19 ~ Afff-~.~-'~
Before Job Corns
20+
- Other
Posi-
tive
Working Working School Miii- Place- Unem- Noun
Only & School Q~j~ ~j~gy ~
7, 7, 7, 7. 7.~ 7, 7, $
41 4 81012 223 1.84
31 4 13 5 12 2 31. 1.65
40 5 9 8 12 2 24 1.82
45 4 6 11 14 1 19 1.89
40 8 3 49 1.41
PAGENO="0738"
24
COMPARISON OF SIX AND TWELVE MONTH STATUS
Current Status Change from Pre-Job Cp~pg
Proportion Proportion
Unemplov~c~ Hourly Wage Unemployed Hourly Wage
Six Twelve Six Twelve Six Twelve Six Twelve
Months Months Months Months Months Months Months Months
$ $ $
23 1.79 1.84 -20 -27 +.38 +.45
22 1.86 1.95 -22 -28 +.33 +.45
28 1.85 1.85 -12 -20 +.41 +.44
16 1.55 1.57 -32 -35 +.31 +.36
18 1.87 1.91 -25 -29 +.48 +.53
24 1.77 1.81 -20 -22 +.39 +.46
26 1.69 1.78 -20 -28 +.23 +.33
24 1.79 1.83 -21 -23 +.37 +.44
19 1.77 1.86 -22 -35 +.39 +.44
22 1.81 1.82 -23 -27 +.34 +.45
31 1.57 1.65 -13 -20 +.16 +.25
24 1.81 1.82 -24 -26 +.4O +.44
19 1.88 1.89 -27 -30 +.46 +.48
Total
26
Men's Urban Centers 25
Men' s Conservation
Centers 32
Women's Centers 21
Category I 20
Category II 27
Category III 31
Black 26
White 27
Other 26
Under 18 33
18-19 24
20+ 22
PAGENO="0739"
ANNUAL EARNINGS
ANNUAL EARNINGS BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS
FOR THOSE NOT IN SCHOOL OR ARMED FORCES -- 6 MONTHS
6 Months After Job Corps
Before Job Corps (Base: working, unemployed
(Base: not in school or other -- no school
when enlisted in Job c~2~) ~_~programs since Job Corps)_
Worked During Worked Proportion Gain
Year Before Annual 1 Since of Time Annual 2 A
Job Corps ~~ns Job ~ Worked Earnings Worked -
$ 7, 7, $ 7, $
TOTAL 62 1126 79 49 2029 17 90~ 80
Men's Urban Centers 66 1430 90 58 2556 24 1126 79 ~`
Men~s Conservation Centers 67 1255 85 54 2299 18 1044 83
Women's Centers 53 741 62 35 1217 9 476 64
/
(1) Pre-Job Corps annual earnings was computed for all individuals who were out of school three months or
more before entering the Job Corps. If they had been out of school between 3 and 11 months before
entering the Job Corps, their earnings were multiplied by a factor which converted them to an annual
basis. .
(2~ Current annual earnings were computed for all individuals who are currently in the job market
(working, unemployed, other) and who have been in no school or training programs since leaving
the Job Corps.
PAGENO="0740"
ANNUAL EARNINGS BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS
FOR THOSE NOT IN SCHOOL OR ARMED FORCES -- 6 MONTHS
Before Job Corps
(Base: not in school
when enlisted in Job Cor~gI
Worked During
Year Before
Job Co~pg_ _______
6 Months After Job Corps
(Base: working, unemployed
or other -- no school
programs since Job Corps)
Annual (1)
$
Proportion
of Time
Worked
Worked
Since
Job Corps
79
84
TOTAL
Category I
Category II
Category III
Annual (2)
Earnings -
$
62 1126
62 1294
62 1047
63 1056
49 2029
56 2441
78 48 1961
76 44 1741
Gain
AtiTnual
Worked Earnings
`A $ ~
~l7 903 80
22 1147 89
16 914 88
13 685 66
PAGENO="0741"
ANNUAL EARNINGS BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS
FOR THOSE NOT IN SCHOOL OR AR~D FORCES -- 6 MONTHS
6 Months After Job Corps
Before Job Corps (Base: working, unemployed
(Base: not in school or other -- no school
when enlisted in Job CpFp~) ~~~rograms since Job Corps)
Worked During Worked Proportion Gain
Year Before Annual Since of Time Annual (2) Anriual
Job Corp~ ii~s Job Corps Worked Earnings Worked Earnings
7, $ 7, 7, $ 7, $ 7,
TOTAL 62 1126 79 49 2029 ~7 903 80
Black 61 1128 78 47 1921 17 793 71
White 64 1151 83 54 2255 19 1104 86
Other 62 1107 78 49 2141 16 1034 93
PAGENO="0742"
ANNUAL EARNINGS BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS
FOR THOSE NOT IN SCHOOL OR ARMED FORCES -- 6 MONTHS
6 Nonths After Job Corps
Before Job Corps (Base: working, unemployed
(Base: not in school or other -~ no school
when enlisted in Job Corpsl _p~pgrams since Job Corps)
Worked During Worked Proportion Gain
Year Before Annual (1) Since of Tine Annual(2) Annual
Job Corps ~ Job Corp~ Worked Earning~s Worked Earnings
$ `A $ `A $ %
TOTAL 62 1126 79 49 2029 1.7 +903 80
Under 18 55 917 74 42 1564 19 647 71
18 - 19 62 1113 81 50 2O~7 19 964 86
20+ .69 1276 81 54 2346 12 1070 84
PAGENO="0743"
ANNUAL EARNINGS BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS
FOR THOSE NOT IN SCHOOL OR ARNED FORCES -- 6 MONTHS
6 Months After Job Corps
Before Job Corps (Base: working, unemployed
(Base: riot in school or other no school
when enlisted in Job q~p~) ~ programs since Job Corps~
Worked During Worked Proportion Gain
Year Before Annual (1) Since of Time Annual (2) Annual
Job Corps Earnin~s Job Co~p~ Worked Earningg Worked Eatnt~s
`A `A $ `A $ ~
Under 18 53 803Y 83 56 2130 30 l327y 165
18 - 19 60 1299 84 53 2277 24 . 978 75
20+ 66 1376 84 59 2652 18 1276 93
Category II io~ m 48 1q61 16 914 88
Under 18 46 677 39 1687 29 1010 148
18 - 19 61 999 79 50 2011 18 1012 101
20+ 74 1328 79 52 2097 5 `769 58
Catego~~I~ 3~5g 76 44 . 1741 13 685 66
Under 18 58 1016 73 40 1409 15 393 39
18 - 19 65 1072 80 47 1961 +15 889 83
20+ 70 1042 77 48 2004 7 962 92
PAGENO="0744"
ANNUAL EARNINGS BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS
FOR THOSE NOT IN SCHOOL OR ARMED FORCES -- 6 MONTHS
Before Job Corps
(Base: not in school
e~ted inJob~Corp~~
Worked During
Year Before
_Job Corps
6 Months After Job Corps
(Base: working, unemployed
or othar -~ no school
nromc~ s~ac~o Tab LTorns~
Annual (1:)
$
Worked
Since
Job Corps
Proportion
of Time
Worked
Annual (2)
Earning~
$
Gain
- Annual
Worked - Earnings
Under 18
917
Category I
53
8O3y
Category II
46
677
Category III
58
1016
i~9~
62
1113
Category I
60
1299
Category II
61
`
999
Category III
65
1072
.
1~L~
Category.I
66
1376
Category II
74
1328
L~
83
56
2~30
75
39
1687
73
40
1409
~i
~_Q
.~:P2i
84
53
2277
79
50
2011
80
47
1961
81
54
84
79
59
52
2652
2097
19
*647
71
30
l327y
121
-29
1010
148
15
393
39
-19
964
86
24
978
75
18
1012
101
15
889
83
12
1070
84
18
1276
93
5
-769
58
Category III 70
1042 77 48
2004 7 962 92
PAGENO="0745"
31
EFFECTS OF AGING ON ANNUAL EARNINGS -~ 6 MONTHS
TOTAL
Age at
Ent~y Current
Annual Age
Pre-Job Corps Annual
Earnings Earning~
$ $
16 780 1251
17 1035 1612
18 1170 1943
19 1173 2241
20 1307 2155
21 1389 2439
22+ 1346 2636
27-754 0 - Appendix - 69 -- 5
PAGENO="0746"
32
EFFECTS OF AGING ON ANNUAL EARNINGS -- 6 MONThS
MEN
Age at
Entry Current
Annual Age
Pre-Job Corps Annual
Earnings~_ Earnings
$
16 872 1329
17 1231 1843
18 1339 2146
19 1495 2827
20 1660 2868
21 1752 3283
22+ 1444y 3306
WOMEN
Age at
Current
Annual _______
Pre-Job Corps Annual
Earning~ Earni~g~
$
16 453y X
17 509 785
18 855 1367
19 728 1048
20 827 1304
21 *956y 1334
22+ 1255y 1728y
PAGENO="0747"
33
EFFECTS OF AGING ON A3~!NUAL EARNINGS 6 MONTHS
BLACK
Age at
Current
Annual
Pre-Job Corps Annual
Ag~ ~in~ Earn~g~
$
16 677 1043y
17 1060 1273
18 1191 1931
19 1153 2162
20 1217 1957
21 1565 2268
22+ 1448y 2676
WHITE
Age at
Entry~ Current
Annual A~ge
Pre-Job Corps Annual.
Earnings Earnings
$ $
16 .
17 1101 1946
18 . 1177 2074
19 1093 2736
* 20 l6Oly
21 lll9y
22+ llO9y
PAGENO="0748"
ANNUAL EARNINGS BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS
FOR ThOSE NOT IN SCHOOL OR ARMED FORCES -- 6 MONTHS
6 Months After Job Corps
Before Job Corps (Base: working, unemployed
(Base: not in school or other -- no school
whenenli~tcd~gj~ç2rs ~_~~rograms since Job Corps)
Worked During Worked Proportion Gain
Year Before Annual Since of Time Annual
Job Corps ~ Worked Earnings (2) Worked Annual
7. $ 7. 7. $ 7. $ 7~
Categoryj 62 1294 84 56
Black 60 1361 84 54 2285 24 924 68
White 67 1237 85 64 2947 18. .1710 138
Categpr~ II 62 1047 78 48 1961 16 914 88
Black 63 1080 75 45 1860 12 780 72
White 60 967 84 54 2200 24 1233 127
/
63 1056 76 44 1741 13 685 66
Black 62 959 73 42 1608 11 649 68
White 65 1204 82 49 1959 `17. 755 63
(1) Pre-Job Corps annual earnings was computed for all individuals who were out of school three months or
more before entering the Job Corps. If they had been out of school between 3 and 11 months before
entering the Job Corps, their earnings were multiplied by a factor which converted them to an annual
basis.
(2~ Current annual earnings were computed for all individuals who are currently in the job market
(working, unemployed, other) and who have been in no school or training programs since leaving
the Job Corps. `
PAGENO="0749"
ANNUAL EARNINGS BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS
FOR THOSE NOT IN SCHOOL OR A9MED FORCES -- 6 NONTHS
Hen's Urban Centers
Category I
Category II
Category III
Conservation
Category I
Category II
Category III
Women's Centers
Category I
Category II
Category III
68 1829
61 1288
68 1185
67 1255
93 64 3010
87 56 2412
88 53 2205
54 2299
65 ,2897
56 2397
46 1914
35 1217
Before Job Corps
(Base: not in school
when enlisted in Job Corps)
6 Nonths After Job Corps
(Base: working, unemployed
or other -- no school
oroarams since Job Coros~
Worked During
Year Before
Job Corp~
66
Annual
Earnin.6s~ ~
1430
Worked
Proportion
Since
Job Corps
of Time
*Worked
Annual (2)
Earnings
7~
7,
~$
90
58
2556
Gain
Annual
Worked : Earntt~gs
7, $ %
~ 19
25 1181 65
*26 1124 87
20 1020 86
18 1044 83
27 1515 111
21 1247 108
12 638 50
9* 476 64
iS 782 93
231 30
8 297 4~
67 1382
65 1150
68 1276
53 741
53 833
58 765
49 627
85
94
86
80
62
68
60
57
43 1615
31 996
29 924
PAGENO="0750"
ANNUAL EARNINGS BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS
FOR THOSE NOT IN SCHOOL OR ARMED FORCES -- 6 MONTHS
6 Months After Job Corps
Before Job Corps (Base: working, unemployed
(Base: not in school or other -- no school
when enlisted in Job Corp~1 programs since Job Corps)
Worked During Worked Proportion Gain
Year Before Annual Since of Time Annual A~rnual
Job Corp~ Earn~,g~l) Job Corp~ Worked Earning! Worked Earn4tlgs
$ `A $ `A $ %
Men' s Urban Centers 66 1430 90 58 2556 24 1126 79
Black 65 1506 89 56 2466 24 960 64
White 71 1408 91 62 2629 20 1221 87
Men's Conservation Centers 67 1255 85 54 2299 18 1044 83
Black 68 1296 84 53 2199 16 903 70
White 64 1252 86 55 2453 22 1201 96
Women's Centers 53 741 62 35
Black 51 677 60 33 1133 9 456 67
White 58 717 71 43 1519 13 802 113
PAGENO="0751"
ANNUAL EARNINGS BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS
FOR THOSE NOT IN SCHOOL OR ARNED FORCES -- 6 MONTHS
6 Months After Job Corps
Before Job Corps (Base: working, unemployed
(Base: not in school or othar -- no school
when enlisted in Job C~pg) ~~~rograms since Job Corps) -
Worked During Worked Proportion Gain
Year Before Annual (1) Since of Time * Annual 2 Antiual
Job Corps Earnings- Job Corps Worked Earnings.'~ gj~gd ~j~rnings
N $ N N $ N $ N
Men' s Urban Centers 90 58 2556 24 1126 79
Under 18 61. 1297 85 50 2017 *24 720 56
18 - 19 65 1283 91 57 2034 26 751 91
20+ 74 1762 93 67 3236 19 1474 83
Men' s Conservation Centers 67 1255 85 54 2299. 18 1044 83
Under 18 59 939 78 44 1655 19 716 77
18 - 19 68 1228 88 55 2438 20 1210 99
20+ 78 1634 92 65 2992 14 1358 83
Wome~s Centers 53 741 62 35 1 ~ ~i
Under 18 37 462 53 26 788 16 326 70
18 - 19 52 801 61 34 1203 9 402 50
20+ 59 790 67 40 1395 8 605 76
PAGENO="0752"
Under 10,000
Ponulation
Nan
13 lack
Whi to
Woman
B lack
IThi Sc
Over 250,000
-
Black
White
Women
Black
White
Before Job Corps
(Base: not in school
when enlisted in Job
Worked During
Year Before Annual
_Job Corps Earnin,~s'~)
7. $
61 970
67 1154
68 1109
64 1314
65 1356
70 1558
69 1638
7: 1495
57 1009
911
856
52 2431
58 2819
57 2758
61
40 1629
40 1611
43 l542y
ARMUAL EARNINGS BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS
FOR THOSE NOT IN SCHOOL OR ARMED FORCES -- 6 MONTHS
6 Months After Job Corps
(Base: working, unemployed
or other -- no school
oroarams since Job Corns3
45
44
48
567
545
571
Worked
Since
Job Corps
Proportion
of Time
Worked
Annual
~arnings~2~
,,~Gain
. AtinWil
Worked Earnings
7,.
7,
$
7.
$ %
76
85
86
82
47
54
55
53
1902
2302
2217
2448
15
18
18
18
932 96
1148 99
1108 100
1134 86
54
50
29
27 .
931
839
`9
6
364 64
294 54
10,000-49,999
60 1027
63 1229
Slick , 63 1232
White 65 1302
Women 55 665
Black 52 `543
White 60 762 .. -
.
79 49 1981
87 55 2414
86 52 2242
88 60 2723
62 36 1123
59 34 1074.
69 - 41 1280
~9 954 93
24 ` `1185 96
23 ` 1010 82
23 1421 110
7 458 69
7 531 ` 98
9 51873
`
22 769 57
20 516 34
25 ` 866 72
11 488 71,
11 359 53
17 ,,_~263v L84
50,000-250,000
fl3~
N3t~ 67 1360
Black 67 1509
White 68 1199
52 683 *`
Black . 50 675
Waite 59 683 `
. 49 `!~!
89 55 2129
` 87 53 2025
93 60 2065
63 35 1171
61 31 1034
76 49 1946y'
81
88
86
91
69
71
16 `1075 79
18 ` 1261 81
17 1120 69
16 l727y 115
12 620 62
LU 700 77
10 686Y 80
PAGENO="0753"
39
CONTACT WITH PUBLIC EMPLOYMENT SERVICE
RIGHT AFTER JOB CORPS
(6 month)
Base: Total --
Referred to
School or
Had Referred Training
Contact to Job !~gram
70 70
Total 60 26 11
Men' s Urban 59 30 12
Men's Conser-
vation 58 25 11
Women 62 25 12
Catego.ry I 69 37 11
Category II 62 27 14
Category III 52 19 10
WHO HELPED GET FIRST JOB AFTER JOB CORPS*
(6 Months)
~-Category~
Total I II III
70 70 70
Self 36 28 35 42
Friend 24 19 24 27
Public Employ-
ment Service 19 26 19 14
Family 18 14 19 20
Job Corps Place-
ment Office 10 20 8 4
Job Corps Gate-
House 1 2 `* *
JACSorWICS 1 1 1 1
*Adds to more than 1007~ because some respondents gave more than
one answer.
PAGENO="0754"
AWARENESS AND SERVICE OF JACS, WICS, GATEHOUSE
(6 Months)
JACS
(Joint Action in Community Service) _______
Is there one in town - Yes
No
Not sure
Been in touch - Yes 2
(Base: Total)
Has JACS helped - Yes 1 1
(Base: Total)
-`~----~-----Women
-Ca tegory-
WICS (~7omen in Community Service) Total I II III
~h
Is there one in town - Yes 30 38 34 17
No 27 28 23 29
Not sure 43 34 43 54
Been in touch - Yes 14 20 16 6
(Base: Total)
HAS WICS helped - Yes 5 7 5 3
(BAse: Total)
`5
Merits Conser-
Total Urban vation Women
7, 7, 7,
5 7 4 5
39 39 40 37
56 54 56 58
Been in touch - Yes 3 3 2 2
(Base: Total)
Has Gatehouse helped - Yes 2 2 1
(Base: Total)
40
Total
7,
5
35
60
Men's
Urban
7*
8
36
56
2
`5
Conser-
vation
4
35
61
1
Women
7*
5
35
60
2
1
Gatehous e
Is there one in town - Yes
No
Not sure
PAGENO="0755"
WHY CORPSMEN ARE UNEMPLOYED
(Base: Unemployed among 6-month group)
Reasons for being unemployed:
Total
~1
44
Men's
Urban
~
42
Men s
Conser-
vation
~
50
Women
%
39
Category
I II III
~
30 49 49
Black
~
43
White Other
I
44 54 1
Under
18
~
49
18-20
~
46
20 and
over
~
34
Most employers demand a high
school diploma
Hard for a minority person to
get a job in my town
*
33 1 ~
35
30
35
34
31
39
16
I
31
33
32
33
No way to get to work
28
26
31
25
29
27
27
26
30
34
29
28
27
No jobs in my field
21
22
21
20
I 30
19
17
22
18
19 I
17
21
24
Work got slow where I was working
and got laid off
19
23
26
9
18
24
I
17
18
21
j
20
17
20
22
Too young
Getting enough on welfare
17
3
19
2
22
2
9
3
10
2
14
3
22
3
14
3
25
1
16
2
39
2
7
2
2
4
PAGENO="0756"
42
RATING OF VARIOUS ASPECTS OF CENTER LIFE
(6 month)
Positi'v~ (excellent plus pretty good -
Way they got you
started at the center
Living conditions in
the center
The food
The kinds of kids there
The instructors
Athletic facilities
Opportunities to relax
and enjoy yourself
How much money you were
paid
Chance to meet people
from the cotanunity the
center was in or near
III Black White
-r IVT~
701 78. 70
69 78 61
64 65 54
401 55 33
711 80 74
76 83 73
74
44 39
Total1
69
61
48
78
79
69
Men's Conser- Category
Urban vation ~L2~ I! I!
7~ 7~ 7~ ~ 7~
72 73 79 75
64 78 75 ;76 74
55 68 59 60 61
43 52 47 57 49
76 75 82186 77
82 78 77183 80
63 66 77175 71 63
40 49150 45 35
43 I 38
50 I
56
42 50 52~53 56 48
56
PAGENO="0757"
43
HOW HELPFUL WAS JOB TRAINING
(6 months)
Very Somewhat Little or Not
Helpful Helpful. no he~p~ sure
-~
Men~s Urban 43 24 28 5
Men's Conservation 39 23 34 4
Women 50 25 20 5
Category I 64 22 13 1
II 48 27 24 1
III 24 23 43 10
HOW HELPFUL WERE READING, MATHEMATICS AND OTHER CLASSES
(6 months)
Very Somewhat Little or Not
Helpful Help~~ no help sure
Men's Urban 47 23 24 6
Men's Conservation 50 22 23 5
Women 53 23 19 5
Category I 64 22 13 1
II 58 24 17 1
III 34 22 33 11
PAGENO="0758"
44
REPARATION FOR MARRIAGE AND RAISING CHILDREN
( 6 months,Women)
Compared to before Job Corps, Now:
Much Somewhat Not at
Better Better all Better Not
Prepared Prepared Prepared Sure
Category I 51 32 13 4
II 39 30 25 6
III 19 29 41 11
Black 40 29 24 7
White 28 33 33 6
Other 31 32 29 8
PAGENO="0759"
Keeping your clothes neat
and clean for school or
your job
* The importance of going to
school
E
How to plan good meals for
your family
How to shop for good bargains
in food stores
How to make attractive clothes
for yourself
How to budget your family
income
THINGS LEARNED ABOUT IN JOB CORPS
(6 Months)
Men's Learned a Lot
Men's Conser- Category Under 20 and
Totall Urban vation Womenj I II III White Other( 18 18 - 19 over
N N N N N N N N N N N N N
54 61 60 66 64 50 65 46 52 54 59 63
62 61 60 65 72 66 51 68 48 58 54 63 68
Reading books 45 40 46 48 56 49 34 52 29 38 37 44 53
Keeping yourself in good F I
shape physically 64 61 67 64 74 69 54 71 50 59 57 66 70
Staying away from the kind of I I I
people and things that can
get you into trouble 60 56 59 66 68 63 52 65 49 54 61 65 70
Settling arguments without * I
fighting 49 46 47 54 61 53 39 56 35 43 40 51 56
Keeping up with important I
things going on in the
world 45 1 42 43 49 56 47 35 52 30 39 I ~ 45 52
Getting alongwithyourfamily 52 49 53 54 I 60 57 59 37 46 47 ~ 55
Reading magazines and news- I
papers 37 1 35 35 42 47 40 27 43 22 35 30 38 44
301 52 33 30 36 46 ~
31 55 30 35 38 47 51
32 51 28 36 37 44 47
311 52 34 39 37 45 52
C~i
45 I 54 51
48 I 60 49
I ~
47 61 47
PAGENO="0760"
STATENENTS ABOUT JOB CORPS
(6 Months)
Agree With
15
Conser- Category I
vation Women I II III Black
~ ~ i ~ r 1 ~r
49 53 571 48
66 62 56~ 64
42 43 481 34
The staff is not strict enough with the
Corpsmen who make trouble in the centers
Most Corpsmen are being trained for the job
they wanted in the first place
Negro Corpsmen seem to start most of the
fights in the centers
The teachers in the Job Corps really try to
help each Corpsman
The people in the community near the center
*were unfriendly toward the Corpsmen
The rules are too strict in the center
Many of the staff people seemed afraid of
the kids
You really had to watch your personal property
because there was a lot of stealing going on
The staff treated everyone fairly and didn't
play favorites
I Men's
Total Urban
~
61 65
45 I ~
83 80
51
31 29
86 I 87
67 1 64
53 53
54 66
45 35 1
83 85 188
46 54 I~9
35 27 126
32 34 131
84 85 84
69 67 ~71
White Other
% 70
65 57
55 61
65 60
77 80
49 53
21 28
39 38
87 80
59 66
85 781 86
53 431 51
32 331 ~
37 36 32
87 861 86
66 65 I 71
PAGENO="0761"
47
REFERENCE GROUP
1815 INTERVIEWS
378 Relatives
298 Friends
1136 Employers
PAGENO="0762"
48
HAS CORPSMAN CRANGED
(Reference Individuals who knew Corpsman before Job Corps)
Changed Changed
for the for the Not Not
Better Worse Changed Sure
%
i2~i 62 3 30 5
Men's Urban 63 2 32 3
Men's Conservation 64 2 29 5
Women 61 2 27 10
Category I 78 1 16 5
Category II 69 3 24 4
Category iii 47 3 43 7
Black 64 2 27 7
White 59 3. 34
Under 18 55 4 34 7
18-19 64 1 30 5
20+ 65 3 27 5
PAGENO="0763"
49
HOW WELL DOES CORPSMEN DO
IN VARIOUS AREAS
(Base: All reference interviews)
Staying away from the kind of
people and things that can get
(him/her) into trouble
Being fair and considerate to
other people
Getting along well with people
of other races and national
backgrounds
Settling arguments or disagree-
ments without fighting
Trying to help other people with
their problems
Keeping up with important things
going on in the world
Becoming involved in community
activities
DOES CORPSMAN STIlL WORK AT
(Base: Reference Employers)
Does Not Work
Laid
Total Quit Fired Off
r
25 15
19
26
28
;
Total
~1
Men's
Urban
~
Men' s
Conser-
vation
7~
Women
1 Cate~o~y~
I II III
L
68
67
65
70
76
70
61
69 71
63
72
77
72
60
69
69
64
75
77
70
62
61
64
53
65
68
62
55
45
47
37
52
51
46
40
29
31
23
30i31
28
27
14
15
9
12114
17
12
NAMED EMPLOYER
Still
work
75
81
74
72
TOTAL
Category I
Category II
Category III
PAGENO="0764"
SPECIFIC RATINGS OF CORPSMEN
(Base: Reference Employers)
TOTAL
%
Men's
Urban
%
Men's
Conservation
%
Women I ~.
70
Category_~
11.
%
.L&L
%
73
i
75
69
79 j
80
69
72
73
74 .
69
78
78
68
73
72
74
65
82
77
71
70
78
J
78
74
84
80
73
79
Getting to work on time
Not being absent too much
Willingness to learn
Ability to do the job
The way (he/she) gets along with
other employees
The way (he/she) gets along with
(his/her) supervisor
Following rules and regulations
Ability to learn specific job skills
83
84
81
86
I
86
82
82
87
88
84
90
88
86
87
76 *
65
78
67
71
59
83
73
I
j
80
68
74
63
76
63
PAGENO="0765"
51
RATING OF CORPSMAN AS EMPLOYEE
(Base: Reference Employers)
Positive
Pretty Only (Excellent +
Excellent Good Fair Poor Prtttv Good
~
Men's Urban 18 45 27 10 63
Men's Conservation 15 43 29 13 58
Women 27 49 14 10 76
Category I 23 45 24 8 68
Category II 19 45 23 13 64
Category III 16 46 25 13 62
Black 17 44 26 13 61
White 18 48 23 11 66
Under 18 8 51 27 14 59
18-19 18 43 27 12 61
20+ 23 46 21 10 69
PAGENO="0766"
52
INTEREST IN HIRING OTHER CORPSMEN
(Base: Reference employers)
Not Not
Interested Interested Sure
%
Total 69 13 18
Men's Urban 70 9 21
Men's Conservation 66 18 16
Women 73 11 16
Category 1 77 9 14
Category II 72 11 17
Category III 73 17 20
PAGENO="0767"
HAS CORPSMAN ADVANCED ON JOB
(Base: Reference Employers)
Men's Men's Category Under
Total Urban Conservation Women I I II III 18 18-19 20+
% %
Received raise 41 39 43 43 50 39 37 28 38 51
Received promotion 1 J 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 1
Received both 5 J 5 5 7 4 . 4 3 - 4 6
Received neither 53 I 51 50 1 42 55 58 J 67 57 42
PAGENO="0768"
Able to make plans for the future
Getting along well with people
Having a real chance of being a
success in the world.
Being in good physical shape.
Having a good idea of what you want
to do
Being concerned about.the way you
dress
Getting along well with your family
Being prepared to get a good job
Willing to accept responsibility
Hardworking
Having a lot of self-confidence
Being independent
Willing to accept discipline
TOTAL
Before
Now
Description fits'
Category I
`very well"---
~~gory II
Category
III
%
Before
Now
Before
Now
Before
Now
15
43
%
15
52
%
12
%
41
z
18
%
38
16 44 15 55 15 44 18 37
31 55 31 66 31 59 31 45
44 67 45 72 46 70 43 61
35 53 30 54 37 57 38 51
40 58 36 63 46 62 39 53
40 55 39 61 42 57 39 49
CHANGES FROM PRE~-JOB CORPS
(Base: Reference individuals who knew Corpsmen before Job Corps)
14 37 15 43 14 39 14 33
68 75 63 71 76 83 66 71
23 44 21 48 22 45 24 43
57 73
52 69
54 79 58 72 58 69
53 74 52 74 52. 62
PAGENO="0769"
CHANGES FROM PRE-TOB CORPS
(6 Months Corpsmen)
Men s
Men's Conser- - --- Category
Total I Urban vation Women I II III
Before Now Before Now Before Now Before Now Before Now Before Now Before Now
7. -i-- -~-- r ~- ~ -~--- T ~ r ~. r ~ -r
23 47 24 48 23 44 22 50 19 56 22 44 26 42
55 71 1 53 69 54 701 58 ~ ( 57 79 53 72 55 65
19 36 20 37 20 35 18 37 17 44 18 *36 22 31
61 67 63 86 63 70 56 62 61 69 60 66 61 66
~ 38 59 37 55 38 59 33 66 37 58 40 51
63 73 65 73 61 72 65 76 65 79 61 75 63 68
61 71 1 61 71 63 72 58 70 64 77 60 71 59 66
Being able to make plans
f or the future
Getting along well with people
Having a realchance of being
a success in the world
Being in good physical shape
Having a good idea of what you
want to do
Being concerned about the way
you dress
Getting along well with your
family
C.T~
PAGENO="0770"
APPENDIX
STATUS OF THE ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 12 MONTHS
Current Status. . (12 Months Aftq7)
Change in:
_______________- Unem- Hour
ploy- ly
7.. $
Categpry~7
Under 18 35 -33 .60
18 - 19 42 -29 .50
20+ . 49 -30 .57
Category II 32 38 4 46 1.35 39 -~ ~6
Under 18 25 24 6 45 1.28 26 -12 .30
18 - 19 36 24 4 46 1.37 39 .22 .47
20+ 41 9 3 47 1.35 42 -25 .46
Category III ~ 3 54 1.45 ~ -28 .~
Under 18 22 21 4 53 1.48 32 -20 .19
18 - 19 29 16 3 . 52 1.41 36 -27 .38
20+ 37 6 2 55 1.51 42 -32 .32
~*-(. T(~1* ~ (1)
Unem- Hourly
Workiflg ~1E11LQ1 Other j~jQ~cj ~jq~7.g9_
7. 7. 7. 7* $.
35 14 4 47 1.38
12 32 3 53 idly
28 20 3 49 1.34
42 9 4 45 1.40
Other
Posi-
tive
Working Working School Miii- Place- Unem- Hourl
..pniy. ~oo Q~jy.. ~ ~ 29.L o~
7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. $
5 . 6 14 10 1 18 1.91
8 10 12 12 3 20 1.71y
5 7 15 10 1 20 1.84
5 5 15 10 1 15 1.97
4 7 9 16 1 24 1.81
3 16 4 17 2 33 1.58
4 8 8 16 1 24 1.84
4 5 10' 11 1 22 181
5 10 8 11 3 26 1.78
4 14 7 8 2 33 1.67
6 10 9 10 4 25 1.79
4 7 7 15 2 23 1.83
PAGENO="0771"
STATUS OF THE ENROLLEE
BEFOBE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 12 MONTHS
Current Statusc2~(12 Months After)
(1)
Before Job Corps~ -
Unem- Hourly
Worki~g School Other p~y~g~ Wag~ __________________ _____
~h 7~ $
Working Working
Other
Posi-
tive
School Miii- Place-
Unem- Hourl:
& School
Only_ ~y_ ment
Other ployed j~g~
%* 7~
7~ % %
% ~h $
Under 18
22
23
.4
51
1.40
31 4
15 5 12
2 31 1.65
Category 1
12
32
3
53
l.lly
35 8
10 12 12
3 20. 1.71
Category II
25
24
6
45
1.28
26 3
16 4 17
2 33 1.58
Category III
22
21
4
53 .
1.48
32 4
14 7 8
2 33 1.67
18-19
28
19
3
50
1.38
40 5
98 12
224 1.82
Category I
28
20
3
49
1.34
42 5
7 15 10
1 20 1.84
Category II
26
24
4
46
1.37
39 4
8 8 16
I 24 1.84
Category III
29
16
3
52
1.41
36 6
10 9 10
4 25 1.79
.?.Q±
40
8
3
49
1.41
45 4
6 11 14
1 19 1.89
Category I
42
9
4
45
1.40
49 5
5 15 10
1 15 1.97
Category II
41
9
3
-
47
1.35
42 4
5 10 11
1 22 1.8
Category I~
37
6
2
55
1.51
42 4
7 7 15
2 23 1.8
Unem- Hour-
ploy- ly
H~' ~.-
%, $
-20 .25
-33 .60
-12 .30
-20 .19
-26 .44
-29 .50
-22 .47
-27 .38
-30 .48
-30 .57
-25 .46
-32 .32
PAGENO="0772"
58
EFFECTS OF AGING - 12 MONTHS
TOTAL
Before Job Corps
(age at entry) ____________
Propor~
Hon
Un-' Hourly
empjoy~4 Rate ______________
%
16 47 1.40
17 48 1.34
18 49 1.41
19 47 1.37
20 45 1.46
21 50 1.42
Now
(cuirent age)
Propor-
Hon
Un- Hourly
employed Rate
35 l.88y
32 1.64
26 1.79
23~ 1.85
20 1.85
19 1.89
22+
58 l.48y
21 1.95
PAGENO="0773"
59
16
17
18
19
20
21
22+
48 1.44
48 1.37
49 1.45
44 1.47
41 1.51
49 1.53
60 I.54y
39
33 1.68
27 1.84
25 1.92
24 .94
22 1.95
22 2.05
Before Job Corps Now
(age before) (current age)
Propor- Propor-
tion f ion
Un- Hourly Un- Hourly
p~c~y~çJ Rate employed Rate
% %
43 I.l9y x x
50 1.l9y 23 l.27y
49 1.26 18
52 1.14 16 1.52
53 l.3ly 13 1.61
53 l.l8y IS 1.69
57 l.4Oy 17 1.61
EFFECTS OF AGING - 12 MONTHS
MEN
Before Job Corps Now
(age before) (current age)
Propor- Propor-
tion tion
Un- Hourly Un- Hourly
employed Rate employed Rate
% %
WOMEN
16
17
18
19
20
21
22±
PAGENO="0774"
60
EFFECTS OF AGING - 12 MONTHS
BLACK
Now
________________ (current age)
Propor-
tion
Un- Hourly
______________ ~pl~yed Rate
%
50 X
34 1.66
29 1.73
25 1.85
24 1.85
20 1.87
23 1.96
Before Job Corps Now
(age before) (current age)
Propor- Propor-
tion tion
Un- Hourly Un- Hourly
empJoy~ Rate ~pIoyed Rate
% ~
16 52 l.49y 40 X
17 52 1.38 30 1.65
18 54 1.37 23 1.92
19 52 1.44 20 1.82
20 59 I.41y l7 1.83
21 54 I.47'y 21 1.94
22+ 68 X 17 1.98
Before Job Corps
(age before)
Propor-
tion
Un- Hourly
ployed Rate
%
44 1.38
48 1.33
46 l.40
46 1.33
39 1.48
46 1.40
56 l.52y
WHITE
16
l7
18
19
20
21
22+
PAGENO="0775"
STATUS OF THE ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 12 MONTHS
- Current Status~-~~ Months After)
Other
(P Posi- ~ein.-
Before Job Corps - tive Unem- Hour-
Unem- Hourly Working Working School Miii- Place- Unem- Hourl ploy- ly
~pyj~].n School Other p]~ed Wage Onjy_ & School _Oniy ~ ment 9~ pJ.qye4 ~ ~ ~
% 7~ 7~ $. % 7. % % ~1. 7. % $ 7., $
Category I 35 14 4 47 1.38 46 5 6 14 10 1 18 1.91 -29 .53
Black 37 15 3 4~ 1.39 45 5 6 13 11 1 19 1.89 -26 .50
White 33 10 5 52 1.34 51 5 5 15 10 1 13 2.00 -39 .66
32 18 4 46 1.35 39 4 7 9 16 1 24 1.81 -22 .46
Black 34 19 2 45 1.34 38 3 7 10 15 1 26 1.80 -19 .46
White 30 16 5 49 1.4] 40 5 9 10 14 2 20 1.86 -29 .45
29 14 3 54 1.45 37 5 10 8 11 3 26 1.78 -28 .33
Black 32 15 2 51 1.44 38 4 10 6 12 3 27 1.78 -24 .34
White 24 13 5 58 1.49 38 5 9 . 9 11 3 25 1.75 -33 .26
PAGENO="0776"
STATUS OF THE ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 12 MONThS
Current Stnhts~2~'1 2 Mnnths After~
Men's Urban Centers
Category I
Category II
Category III
Men' s Conservation
Centers
Category I
Category II
Category III
Women's Centers
Category I
Category II
Category III
Before Job Corps-~1~
Uneun- Hourly
Working Schogj~ Q~j~ pj~g~ ~
7, 7, 7, 7. $.
32 15 3 50 1.50
37 13 3 47
30 18 3 49
30 14 3 53
34 .15 3 48 1.41
Other
Posi-
tive
Working Working School Nih- Place- Unem- Hourl:
~Qpjy & School Only ~ ment Other ployed j~gg
7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. $
42 5 7 18 5 1 22 1.95
1.48
1.48
1.52
45 5 5 23 4
40 4 8 18 6
40 5 9 14 4
Chan~ein:
Unem- Hour
ploy- ly
~- ~RE
7,. $
-28 .45
-29 .55
-26 .41
-27 .38
* 18
1 23
2 26
36 15 3
37 16 3
31 14 2
2.03
1.89
1.90
46 4 8 8 4 2 28.
46 1.34
44 1.38
53 1.49
52
47
41
5 6 12 3
3 6 8 .5
5 10 5 5
1.85 -20 .44
1 21
2 29
3 31
28 16 5 51 1.21
31 13 5 51 1.26
27 19 5 49 1.15
26 14 5 55 1.22
1.96
1.86
1.75
31 4 9 1 37 2 16
-25 .62
-15 .48
-22 .26
42 5 8 1 30
25 4 7 1 42
24 3 12 1 41
1.57 -35 .36
1 13 1.65
2 19 1.54
3 16 1.45
r38 .39
-30 .39
-39 .23
PAGENO="0777"
STATUS OF THE ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 12 MONTHS
46
46
49
31
31
31
Current Status~2~(12 Months After~
4 8 8 4 2 28
4 8 7 3 2 30
4 7 9 4 2 25
/
4 9 1 37 2 16
4 8 `~ 39 1 17
4 11 1 36 3 14
Unem- Hour'
ploy- ly
~- ~&~__
R. $
-20 .44
-15 .43
-28 .49
-35 .36
-35 .33
-41 .48
Rsfrn~ .Tnh
Unem- Hourly
Working School Other ployed WaRe
~1. % 7~ % $_
Other
Posi-
tive
Working Working School Nih- Place- Unem- Hourl:
Onjy_ & School _Only ~y_ inent Other ployed ~
7* 7, 7, `A 7. $
15 3
17 2
12 4
50 1.50
45 1.48
56 1,55
42 5
42 5
42 6
Men's Urban Centers 32
Black 36
White 28
Men' s Conservation
Centers
Black
White
Women's Centers
Black
White
7 18 5 1 22
6 18 2 1 . 26
8 18 6 2 20
-28 .45
-19 .50
-36 .35
34 15 3 48 1.41
37 16 2 45 1.40
30 13 4 53 1.41.
28 16 5 51 1.21
29 16 3 52 1.22
23. 15 7 55 1.16
1.95
1.98
1.90
.1.85
1.83
1.90
1.57
1.55
1.64
PAGENO="0778"
STATUS OF THE ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 12 MONTHS
Current Status~(l2 Months After)
* -~ Other
- Posi- Chang9JJl
BeforeiobpprpL~ tive Unem- Hour
Unem- Hourly Working Working School Miii- Place- Unem- Hourl~ ploy- ly
3~p~in Sc~ç~j. Q~ pj~y~ _~g~ _Q~y. & School. Onjy ~ p~p~ Other plo~ed j~gg
% 7~ % $. 7~ 0h 70 ~h % 0h $ % $
Men's Urban Centers -32 15 3 50 1.50 42 5 7 18 5 1 22 1.9 -28 .45
Under 18 22 23 5 50 1.37 28 3 15 14 8 3 29 1.7. -21 .34
18 - 19 28 18 3 49 1.45 41 6 8 18 4 1 22 1.9 -27 .49
20+ 44 7 2 47 1.56 47 4 4 21 3 1 20 2.0 -27 .46
Men's Conservation
Centers - 34 15 3 48 1.41 46 4 8 8 4 2 28 1.8 -20 .44
Under 18 23 22 3 52 1.49 35 5 13 7 5 2 33 1.6 -19 .18
18 - 19 32 18 3 47 1.39 43 4 9 8 8 3 28 1.8 -19 .42
20+ 43 8 3 46 1.41 54 4 4 9 3 2 24 1.9 -22 .54
Women's Centers 28 16 5 51 1.21 31 4 9 1 37 2 16 1.5 -35 .36
Under 18 18 23 7 52 1.14 21 5 14 0 35 3 22 1.2 -30 .13
18 - 19 20 24----- 6 50 1.18 27 4 9 * 40 3 17 1.4 -33 .31
20+ 35 9 4 52 1.23 35 4 8 1 36 1 15 1.6 -37 .40
PAGENO="0779"
STATUS OF THE ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 12 MONTHS
Current Status~~2)12 Months After~
33 11 2 54
33 10 2 55
35 13 3 49
31 14 4 51
35 16 3 46
26 10 5 59
33 .13 .2 52
35 15 2 48
27 6 1 66
29 16 4 51
32 19 3 46
24 15 6 55
33 17 4 46
36 18 3 43
25 15 6 54
37 11 3 49
35 14 2
38 10 4 48
29 20 5 46
31 24 3 42
26 19 6 49
5. 9 7 13
5 11 6 12
5 . 7 9 10
39 5 6 7 17
35 4 8 6 17
45 5 6 8,' 15
4 7 12 13
3 1 10 20
6 8 14 9
3 20 2.07 -34 .50
20 2.14 -35 .57
5 17 2.00 -32 .42
-28 .43
-23 .43
-36 .47
-29 .36
-26 .37
-45 .34
-26 .63
-18 .72
-35 .,55
-24 .39
--18 .37
-39 .34
-26 .55
-23 .58
-28 .56
-24 .49
-16 .72
-28 .46
Ne fore .Tnh
7~. % %
Unem- Hourly Working Working School Mili- Place- Unem- Hourl:
Work~g School Other p~yed Wag~ Only & School Only ~ ment~ Q~ ployed j~g~
Other
Posi-
tive
~h % % ,~
1.57 45
1.58 47
Unen- Hour-
ploy- ly
HE~
Northeast
Black
White
Mid-Atlantic
Black
White
Southeast
Black
White
Great Lakes
Black
White
Southwest~
Black
White
North Central
Black
White
Western
Black
White
44 4
43 4
48 3
45 4
45 4
45 7
4 10 14 1 23 1.83
5 9 15 1 23 1.83
3 10 11 2 23 1.84
7 9 11
7 9 17
6 10 9
1 23 1.67
1 22 1.68
2 21 1.63
1.40
1.40
1.37
1.31
1.31
1.29
1.52
1.62
1.43
1.30
1.31
1.44
1~35
1.39
1.33
1.54
1.61
1.50
1. 25
1 28
1 20
2 22
2 25
3 15
40
39
45
37
37
38
34
28
34
2.15
2.34
1.98
1.69
1.68
1.78
1.90
1.97
1.89
2.03
2.33
1.96
3 .8 13 14 2 23
2. 4 12 16 3 26
4 11 14 10 3 20
6 14 11 11 2 22
7 16 11 10 2 26
5 15 11 12 2 21
PAGENO="0780"
STATUS OF TRE ENROLLEE
BEFORE AND AFTER JOB CORPS -- 12 MONTHS
~ ~t~ttc~2~l2 Month3 After)
Under 10 000
Posi-
Before Job Cor ~ tivo
Unem- Hourly Working Working School Nih- Place Unem- Hourl~
~~in Sc~pj~ ~ pj~y.g~ ~ggg.. Opj~ &Schooi. ~ ~ Q~j~ ni2s~8.~ J~.ss
% 7* 7. `A $ `A `A 7* 7. 7. 7. 7. $
43. 610 11 2 23
~7fein:
Unem- Hour-
ploy- ly
REa~_ ~ozs.
7., $
1.77-26.42
~ion
3 51 1.40 47 4 6 12 4 1 26 1.80
-25 .40
Men 33 13
Black 38 15 2 45 1.34
White 28 Ii 5 56 1.44
51 1.12
49 4 6 10 1 1 27 1.77
47 4 5 13 3 2 26 1.85
25 2 6 2 41 3 21 1.52
-18 .43
-30 .41
-30 .40
Women 27 17 5
Black 24 19 4 53 1.07
White 31 16 7 46 1.21
25 1 3 1 48 1 21 1.41
29 3 10 4 26 4 24 1.66
-32 .34
22 . .43
10,000-49,999
31 .17 3 49 1.32
Men 33 17 2 48 1.39
- Black 36 20 2 42 1.38
White 29 14 3 54 1.40
Women 26 16 5 53 1.10
Black 28 15 2 55 1.10
White 23 15 7 55 1.05
41 4 8 10 13 1 23
45 4 7 14 4 1 25 1.83
43 4 6 16 4 2 25 1.76
46 5 9 12 5 1 22 1.94
31 4 9 * 35 2 19 1.44
32 3 6 35 1 23 1.46
29 7 12 * 38 3 11 1.49
L76-26~
-23 .44
-17 .38
-32 .54
-34 .34
-32 .36
-44 .44
50,000-250,000
34 14 3 49 1.38
Men 35 14 3 48 1.44
Black 37 15 3 45 1.42
White 31 12 4 53 1.49
Women 29 14 4 53 1.20
Black 32 15 3 50 1.22
White 19 15 6 - 60 1.12
41 5 8 11 12 2 21 1.81
43 5 8 14 4 2 24 1.88
44 5 7 14 3 2 25 1.87
43 5 7 14 9 3 19 1.88
33 4 11 1 36 2 13 1.54
35 4 10 * 37 1 13 1.48
30 4 Il 1 40 2 12 1.65
-28 .43
-24 .44
-20 .45
~34 .39
-40 .34
-37 .26
-48 .53
Over 250,000
4
~i
i~
.~
.~
~py~O3~
49
1.58
41
5
10
13
5
2
24
2.12
-25
.54
Men
Black
32
24
16
16
13
3
3
6
53
52
1.59
1.69
40
44
5
6
8
10
11
16
7
3
2
4
27
17
2.22
1.97
-26
-35
.63
.28
White
6
8
1
37
2
13
1.73
37
.35
Women
Black
White
29
30
19
16
18
11
5
4
9
50
48
61
1.38
1.38
1.38
31
42
6
0
10
9
1
1
36
33
2
4
14
11
1.74
1.82
-34
-50
.36
.44
PAGENO="0781"
67
LENGTH OF TINE ON CURRENT JOB
6 Months 12 Months
Average Average
Months Months
NUMBER OF JOBS
(If could work whole time)
-6 months
5or
1 2 3 4 more None
% 7,7, % % 7,
12 months -
5 or
1 2 3 4 more None
`h 7,7,7, 7, ,.h
29 27 16 7 7 14
33 27 15 5 5 15
24 26 18 10 12 10
9
11
6
15
17
8
17
19
14
Total
4.4
6.4
Black
White
4.4
4.4
6.6
6.0
z~a
Black
White
4.8
4.9
7.4
7.3
Category II
4.2
5.8
Black
White
4.1
4.2
.5.8
5.9
Category III
4.2
5.9
Black
White
4.1
4.3
6.3
5.1
Total
Black
White
Category I
Black
White
Category~j~
Black
White
Categ~y III
Black
White
37 25 11 4
39 25 9 3
30 28 15 5
42 26 11 3
46 25 9 3
31 26 17 7
35 26 11 3
36 25 8 4
30 29 17 3
34 24 10 5
34 23 9 4
29 29 13 6
2 21
2 22
5 17
2 16
1 16
4 15
3 22
2 25
5 16
3 24
3 27
5 18
34 28 15 7 7
36 28 15 5 5
30 28 14 9 13
27 27 16 7 8
29 27 15 6 6
23 29 16 11 13
27 26 16 7 7
32 26 14 5 4
22 25 20 9 10
PAGENO="0782"
68
STATUS BY RELOCATION
COMPARED TO PRE-JOB CORPS
~Excluding Military)
Same Different Different Not
Total NeJ~hborhood Neig~orhood Town Moved
7~
6 Months (122) (2) (1~) (ia) (~)
Working only 39 37 43 45 36
Work and school 5 3 4 8 6
School only 12 13 11 10 11
Other positive 14 19 18 15 14
Other 2 2 2 2 2
Unemployed 28 26 22 20 31
$/hr. 1.79 1.85 1.66 1.76 1.81
12 Months (lOO' (12) QZ) (1~)
Working only 46 48 46 50 44
Work and school 4 5 5 6 5
School only 9 6 7 9 10
Other positive 13 17 19 17 10
Other 2 1 2 1 2
Unemployed 26 23 21 17 29
$jhr. 1.84 1.86 1.77 2.09 1.80
0